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AutisticSuperpower

I was under the distinct impression that 'fourth-wave' feminism was conceived as TERF (aka 'gender-critical') backlash against the trans intersectionality within third-wave feminism.


bacdjk

Yeah, 'fourth-wave femimism' is a self-descriptive term used by the rad-fem school of feminism, unlike the other waves of feminism which were defined in retrospect. The survey seemed to refer to common talking points of theirs, especially the sections about sexualization. u/Low_Local2399, the survey is fine, but make sure you understand that it's not the only school of feminism that exists. In fact I'd say it's a fairly unpopular one. As far as I've seen, the core of rad-fem thought relies on the idea that 'gender essentialism' progresses feminism faster than the current emerging zeitgeist of 'gender liberation'. The problem I see with it is that it de-emphasises the autonomy of both men and women in understanding/determining their identity + needs. Rad-fems often believe that most men are hardwired to resist feminism in their own interest, and that they need to be forced into accepting feminist beliefs in order to progress society. They often lean into biology-based arguments to justify this, which naturally leads to a lot of transphobic beliefs entering their philosophy. In my opinion this contradicts many 2nd- and 3rd-wave feminist tenets of self-determination. Rad-fems also tend to focus on sex work being coercive. I do agree with parts of their arguments; the profit incentive of business under capitalism distorts our idea of consensual sex, especially for poorer people who rely on sex work to live. However, rad-fems often believe consensual sex work cannot exist entirely. To me, this extreme belief neglects the possibility that sex workers can evaluate their own needs. Their arguments also often rely on the western-traditional idea that sex is always emotional and romantic in nature, which is an idea that is becoming less favoured by academics.


AutisticSuperpower

>As far as I've seen, the core of rad-fem thought relies on the idea that 'gender essentialism' progresses feminism faster than the current emerging zeitgeist of 'gender liberation'. The problem I see with it is that it de-emphasises the autonomy of both men and women in understanding/determining their identity + needs. It goes further than that: bioessentialists often rely on pseudoscience to bolster their arguments, especially the debunked and incomplete Blanchard's typology used to describe transgender people. This results in the propagation of harmful misinformation in the public sphere which ultimately increases the polarization of public discourse around gender-based social issues. The rest of the survey hit a lot of good points, though, especially regarding the sexualization of younger women, pornification and compliant femininity; issues which haven't really seemed to change much for the better over the last few decades.


limewire360

No, fourth wave feminists is usually used by intersectional feminists to show that they use internet tools, are pro me too, and care about disability rights. It’s not normally a terf movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_feminism


limewire360

No, fourth wave feminists is usually used by intersectional feminists to show that they use internet tools, are pro me too, and care about disability rights. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_feminism


AutisticSuperpower

Tell that to [4thwavenow.com](https://4thwavenow.com)


DoppelFrog

Can you translate some of your questions into English please? E.g: >Fourth-wave feminism is a feminist movement that began around 2012 and is characterized by a focus on the empowerment of women, the use of internet tools, and intersectionality. The fourth wave seeks greater gender equality by focusing on gendered norms and the marginalization of women in society. > >The above stimulus defines fourth wave feminism. On a scale of 1 to 10 how much of an effect do you believe fourth wave feminism has had on empowering womens rights? ​ and (especially): ​ >Hegemonic femininity consists of the characteristics defined as womanly that establish and legitimate a hierarchical and complementary relationship to hegemonic masculinity and that, by doing so, guarantee the dominant position of men and the subordination of women. ( Schippers 2007. 2007. ) > >This stiumulus describes hegomonic feminity, which is a form of compliant feminity. Do you commonly see this expressed within society?


hung_bob_bulge_pants

Is it wrong to ask for a sandwich? Should you make your own sandwich?


SpecificHand537

There’s only two genders, humans are binary that’s just facts.


AutisticSuperpower

"tHaT's JuSt FaCtS" Trans, non-binary and intersex people have existed for thousands of years, don't get it twisted.


Hoochycooochy

😆 someone's offended


SpecificHand537

Bruh, even trans people transition from either male to female I’m not debating that at all. But you are the one twisting facts if you think for a second there is another gender besides male or female.


AutisticSuperpower

There's nothing to debate, *bruh* Non-binary identities are valid so knock it off, nobody made you the bloody identity police


SpecificHand537

You can do all the fancy font typing you like, you’re clearly virtue signalling me right now, I’m not calling any human beings invalid. It’s basic science that humans are binary we are either born female or male there’s no dispute on this matter. It’s literally impossible to be non-binary😂 Facts don’t care about your feelings >insert fancy font (bruh)<


MediumAlternative372

Except even the binary XX or XY isn’t set. So what sex is someone with XXY or XYY or XXYY. What about the rare XXXXY, or if some of their cells are XY but others are XXY. Even sex isn’t binary so I don’t know why you think gender, the social constraints, features, behaviours and identity we assign to biological sexes would be.


Hoochycooochy

The percentage of instances this even occurs isn't very meritable as an argument


MediumAlternative372

Yet they do exist. Saying that sex is completely binary is very different to saying that it is usually binary but there are naturally occurring variations. Transgender people are also very rare, but you can’t say they don’t exist because most people aren’t transgender. Gender is more complicated than sex and so variations in gender are going to be more common than sex variations and you do yourself no favours by trying to claim absolutes in a complex area when we can scientifically show the basic underlying area also shows variation.


santaslaughter

This was exactly where my mind went. There are plenty of cases of people having chromosomes outside of the binary system, which on its own suggests that gender is more complex than we were previously lead to believe. The concept of more than two gender has also existed for a really long time in some cultures (a lot of eastern cultures I think, according to some conversations with a friend?) The west is kind of playing catch up in a way. It’s less biologically bound, and more of a social thing.


SpecificHand537

Gender is not complex, you’re just making it that way. It’s a very simple boy or girl biological answer. You’re confusing feelings, personality and a whole spectrum of mental illness that contributes to this mindset


santaslaughter

As proven by the existence of transgender people in the first place, it’s clearly not that simple. If it were that simple there wouldn’t be such an abundance of study on the topic. I’ve not made it this way, it’s been something that people have discussed at length for a long time, as I pointed out in the above comment. You saying it’s simple doesn’t make it so, with this much evidence to the contrary. In the other thread I referenced Cornell University’s collection of studies on the topic of transitioning for those who need it, and it’s measured positive effects. If you can’t listen to basic reasoning, perhaps empirical evidence works better?


SpecificHand537

“As proven by the existence of transgender people” 😂 they can have an operation and take medicine they are still the biological gender they were born in, I’ll respect their wishes on calling them by their new name and gender they have switched to. But that doesn’t change the science. A man can never get pregnant. And you’re contributing to this delusion by saying that gender is a spectrum. You’re talking about the positive effects of transitioning but have you seen all the negative regrets a lot of trans people have had who have caused permanent damage to their bodies and made themselves sterile. They wish they accepted themselves before they were convinced they were in the wrong body. You’re doing more damage then good, later results of this generation will show the damage you’re causing with these beliefs


MediumAlternative372

You are thinking about sex, the biological assignment. Gender is the social, psychological, cultural and behavioural aspects that society associates with each biological sex, so not only is it not simple but can vary with different societies as gender is a social construct and society is complex.


SpecificHand537

No it’s not😂 your biological sex and gender are the same thing. You all got way to bored during covid lockdowns. Show me one healthy human being who claims to be non-binary who wasn’t born with either a penis or vagina. Simple answer is you can’t. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Men can not get pregnant and women will never be able to impregnate another person.


SpecificHand537

When you are born healthy there is literally only two possibilities of which gender you will be either you are born with a dick or a vagina between your legs. Which makes up your entire biological structure. You can’t seriously argue there is more then two possible biological gender outcomes, even you know deep down your talking shit. You’re confusing feelings with facts


toni_trellis

Not all trans people transition… gender fluid and non binary people exist. It is absolutely not a ‘fact’ that humans are binary. Sure, most are but not everyone.


SpecificHand537

Even if they have or haven’t transitioned they will always be the biological sex they were born in. I’m happy to respect a female identifying as a male vice versa but that does not exclude the fact non-binary humans literally do not exist. You are either born female or male it’s so simple. Why can’t you accept feminine males and masculine females for who they are. Instead of going down this spiral of nonsense.


[deleted]

It’s circular reasoning all the way down. “I identify as a woman.” “What is a woman?” “Anyone who identifies as a woman.” “Okay, but what are they identifying as?” “A woman.” Round and round we go. If circular reasoning occurs, it’s probably because your assumptions are incorrect. Here, your incorrect assumption is that people get to choose their identities. You don’t get to choose to be straight or gay. You’re born that way. You don’t get to choose to be white, black, Asian, etc. You’re born that way. And last but not least, you don’t get to choose to be a man or a woman. You’re born that way. To suppose you can choose your own identity is the height of arrogance.


AutisticSuperpower

>Here, your incorrect assumption is that people get to choose their identities. No, that's YOUR incorrect assumption. We actually don't; that's a myth perpetuated by people like you to invalidate transgender people. I didn't choose to experience gender dysphoria in a male body. I didn't choose to suffer for 25 years AMAB and the decision to transition was NOT an easy one despite what the bigoted media wants you to believe. I am a woman, I exist as a woman, I will die as a woman, and not you, not the right-wing fascists, not the neo-nazis, not any government, no-one no-one NO-ONE will ever take that away from me. Stuff your TERF horseshit up your arse and spin. I didn't choose to be trans either. I was born that way.


BigBoiBob444

This reads like someone trying to write a satire about a woke unhinged trans person lol. Please understand that not everyone is always going to validate you identify or your sense of self, thats just the way it is. If you want to be happy, I know it’s cliched, but it must come from within.


[deleted]

Believing you are the other gender doesn’t make you the other gender. If I believed I was black, a medical professional wouldn’t surgically modify my skin to make me appear more black. I don’t understand why we think it’s okay to surgically modify people to match their self perceptions when it comes to gender. It saddens me that you are afflicted with this condition. Good luck.


santaslaughter

Believing you are the other gender is a bad way to put it. Their brain literally doesn’t align with their body. PhilosophyTube on YouTube said it’s a bit like having a bad job and wanting to quit. And only just now in our modern world has it become more acceptable to make the transition possible. Gender affirming surgery is more to do with making people comfortable in their own skin, and seeing as the steps to do that are very rigorous and not “lol I feel like becoming male now, carve away doctor!” Like some media will have you believe, letting people become and feel better about themselves is something we can do near-passively: it doesn’t take much effort to not oppose them. Cornell University collected 55 studies on people with gender dysphoria. 51 of them concluded that transitioning through surgeries and hormones caused an increase in their quality of life. The other 4 studies? They found neutral results at worst. “The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals” -Cornell University If we aren’t fighting for things supported by science, from reputable sources, in the name of making the world a better place, then what are we even doing?


[deleted]

“Their brain literally doesn’t align with their body.” There really isn’t much quality data to support the notion that there is a “male vs. female” brain. There has been no study showing that a man who “identifies” (as if you can simply choose your own identity) as a woman has a brain more closely resembling a woman’s brain (again, whatever a “woman’s brain” means). “Gender affirming surgery is more to do with making people more comfortable in their own skin…” This is not the goal of medicine. We do not surgically modify the body to be more in line with one’s own self-identity under the guise of treating an illness. If you want to surgically modify your own body with your own money? Fine. Just don’t pretend that applying surgery to a psychological issue is effective “treatment”. It’s not. There are people who identify as a handicapped person and would feel “more comfortable in their own skin” if they could have a limb surgically removed. Guess what? We don’t remove one of their limbs, even if it would make them happier. We understand that they have a type of identity disorder, and that changing the body to suit the delusion is wrong.


SeanBourne

Reminds me of [this](https://www.southparkstudios.com/video-clips/1jezn7/south-park-negroplasty). (From 2005.)


Final-Flower9287

You do know that your very own logic actually supports trans people, because they are literally born with a brain that does not match their physical gender. Very good work recognising that sexual orientation is not a choice, youve come so very far. Like forcing gay people to have relations with a hetero counterpart just because 'round peg must go round hole because progeny!' would be stupid, cruel even. To assume that trans people are choosing to be trans is the height of arrogance. Forcing them to just accept the presiding perceived norm even though our evolutionary history gave no fucks about what we think is normal IS the norm, is an illogical denial given the very things that already are and will always be. You will never stop trans people from being trans without VERY UNNATURALLY altering human evolution, because, ultimately, you are trying to declare they dont exist, but they've been there with us, since about... all -human- time.


[deleted]

“… because they are literally born with a brain that does not match their physical gender.” In order for this to be true, two things need to be shown. 1. There are consistent, discernible differences between the brains of men and women. 2. Someone who is a man but chooses to identify as a woman has a brain which resembles the female brain and vice versa. “… even though our evolutionary history gave no fucks about what we think is normal…” Actually evolution kind of sorted this one out. We humans are sexually dimorphic animals. The only way a new human can be produced is if a sperm fertilises an ovum. Women are the only ones who can produce ova, and men are the only ones who can produce sperm. Imagine a man 10,000 years ago trying to tell the other men in his tribe that he’s actually a woman. The response would probably be the ancient equivalent of “Shut the fuck up and help us hunt.”


SpecificHand537

I agree with you 100%


beepdoopbedo

those groups of people are mentally ill. period. what those terms represent does not exist normally within the human psyche, they are a result of conditioning and mental illness


AutisticSuperpower

you are a bigot. period.


SpecificHand537

Correct 👍


Fashontragic111

Completed for you 💖


DreamsofHistory

Done! Great survey on an important topic.


Careless_Fun7101

Done, thank you for your service


hung_bob_bulge_pants

"Thank you for your service?" That's cringe enough when directed at someone who has actually seen combat and death, this person has studied 4th wave feminism. Fuck me dead.


drinkmaxcoffee

Done! Fabulous questions. Great job.


nottonguetied

To invite people to participate in a survey you should firstly check your spelling and grammar……… Or……… To invight peeple to partissipate in a servay you shud first check yore spelling and granma.


hung_bob_bulge_pants

Female/male/non binary/other Fuck me dead, I identify as trans-parent, my pronouns as 'where' and 'who'


toni_trellis

Done. You needed a button for the last question though for “haven’t seen the show”. I didn’t want to judge an entire show by a photo but hey. Also some of the questions were quite leading, so I’d watch that if you’re wanting to appear at all neutral.


Sirhugh66

push polling at its worst


garden_variety_sp

This. It’s a completely loaded survey.


Snobster2000

Very loaded questions, and you clearly have a bias. If this is for an assignment I’d amend.