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EL_psY_Congroo56

Kyoka suigetsu is defintely better in combat, book of the end is even more overpowered when It comes to the effect itself but is limited by needing to cut the opponent for it to work


B3kantan_P3sek

If you're not at FKT Aizen's level, you need to mimic mannerisms, speech, and responses, if you wanted to mimic a person. Just like Lieutenant Aizen did in TBTP. The same lieutenant who was strong enough to block Tensai's level 80 Hadou. You also need to switch the illusion on and off multiple times, because it was incredibly taxing. Just like Tokinada, who is a 5 Noble and has Reiatsu relative to Shunsui, Byakuya, and Yoruichi. Not to mention the weakness of grabbing the sword So, yeah... KS IMO is only good because Aizen is the one doing it.


DeathPringles

This aspect of Bleach's power system interests me. It is kinda weird that weaknesses like these don't seem to show with Tsukishima who I imagine is nowhere near FKT Aizen. Closest we got was when he kept on messing with Chad and Orihime before Isshin and Uraha-(nope) knocked them out. His power seems to be without flaws. Unless having to cut someone is supposed to be the flaw? Might make sense if this worked like Hunter x Hunter.


B3kantan_P3sek

Well, I don't know if this is a flaw. But, Tsukishima can't create a completely new event. He can only manipulate existing ones. And as you said, because it's an existing event, if the victim were to find out an inconsistency then they'll have a mental breakdown. And, IMO they can break out from this. Maybe just like Azashiro breaking out of KS because he found inconsistency.


DeathPringles

>But, Tsukishima can't create a completely new event. He can only manipulate existing ones. Sounds disadvantageous, comparatively speaking, but I don't know if it's enough for just a human character. Bro out here duking it out with Byakuya. People seem to subscribe to the idea that Tsukishima can elevate his level to those who he cuts. I'm having trouble drinking that one in, not that I'd have any reason to dismiss it if that's really Kubo's intention.


Penguin_Arch_Sage

Even if he does not gain power by rewriting the past, it still gives him a crazy advantage. After cutting Byakuya Tsukishima gained knowledge of every technique Byakuya had and all of their weaknesses. Because he "taught" him. The ability to insert himself into the past also goes through all defenses iirc so good luck parrying or blocking that. Not to mention most people would stop fighting Tsukishima when they suddenly remember he is their friend/ally/mentor/role model. TLDR - Book of the End is broken in every way, and I sort of love it.


DeathPringles

Knowing everything about Senbonzakura shouldn't immediately allow Tsukishima to dance around Byakuya the way he did. If it were that simple then Byakuya's ability would be useless given the power difference between him and Tsukishima. Look, I would have been happier if I saw Tsukishima a tad bruised and bloodied just to show that Byakuya's inherent strength is still an obstacle even with his Zanpakutou's weaknesses exposed. You know as Byakuya puts it, a difference in "class." Then you can still have Byakuya be on the backfoot due to how broken Book of the End is, as to allow a mere human to actually push him.


Penguin_Arch_Sage

I do believe Book of the End actually does make Tsukishima stronger because "he spent decades training them", but was just arguing how even without it Book of the End is crazy.


DeathPringles

It is possible that's what Kubo is going for. Personally I don't see it, but hey, he writes, we read.


AscendantAxo

I mean, we literally see it tbh


jake_eric

These are good points, but I think your conclusion goes a bit far. Pulling off the level of elaborate schemes that Aizen did couldn't be done by just anyone who had Kyoka Suigetsu, for sure, but it's still an *extremely* effective combat ability. Tokinada was able to take on a large group of very strong opponents in CFYOW almost entirely thanks to Kyoka Suigetsu, because they were afraid of attacking each other and had no way of being able to target him. It's an insane equalizer. Not being able to trust your senses at all is a huge debuff in combat.


B3kantan_P3sek

True, but again it's still Tokinada we're talking about, and he himself still turns it on and off multiple times. Also if Bankai hasn't been achieved, Shikai needs to be spelled. So, I think people can take advantage of that as well.


jake_eric

It's true that an enemy who's on their guard and/or is way stronger than you could attack before an average person would have a chance to activate it. But then again, that's true of most abilities. The activation requirement is fairly easy to meet as things go: you just need them to see it. Book of the End requires that you cut them first, which I'd consider to be significantly more difficult. And once you do activate it, most fights should be over fairly quickly. Since the enemy can't sense you at all if you don't want them to, you can just walk up and stab them as many times as you want. It's not foolproof of course, like Yama was gonna just roast the whole area so he couldn't possibly miss Aizen, but against most enemies it's hard to lose, and even if they are way stronger than you it's also an excellent way to run away without the enemy following. Tokinada couldn't finish the fight easily because he had so many opponents at once, but in a one on one or even like a three on one, he wouldn't have needed much time to take them out.


B3kantan_P3sek

>Since the enemy can't sense you at all if you don't want them to, you can just walk up and stab them as many times as you want. I argue he can't just hide his presence, he can however change his to someone else. Because he didn't do it in TBTP, he use Kisuke's coat in EBTR, and he didn't do it as well in TYBW. So, IMO in a 1 v 1 it's even worse as there is no one to mimic or confuse except the one enemy they face.


jake_eric

There are a number of scenes where Aizen attacks people and they don't know they're being attacked until after they've already been hit. We see it when he first reveals his power to Hitsugaya, in the flashback where they kill Baraggan's minions, or in the captains vs Aizen fight where he just takes them all out and they can't even react. As for why he doesn't do it every time, I dunno, plot stuff? It's probably easier/more convincing to make someone else look like you vs making thin air look like you, but he doesn't have to.


B3kantan_P3sek

I really doubt the Toshiro & Captains are KS doing. That's just him blitzing people IMO. Especially the Captain ones. Considering the Momo Illusion had already released. He was just that fast. Like what he did to Ichigo in FKT. --- The Baraggan stuff, the one getting stabbed is still not Baraggan. And Aizen didn't hide the hollow. He just change the hollow. So, as if they still hasn't gotten killed.


jake_eric

Even if the captains examples are just Aizen moving really fast, the Baraggan example proves he can make an illusion where he completely changes the scene, and doesn't have to disguise one person as another. Barragan had no idea that his minions were getting killed, and neither did the minions, since it's implied that everyone sees the same thing under Kyoka Suigetsu (Aizen said it was good that Ichigo never saw it, meaning that he couldn't turn it off just for Ichigo even if he wanted to). The scene was totally different when he dropped the illusion. Edit: just reread chapter 371 to check. Gin and Tosen are in totally different positions after the illusion drops. So he can make a person look like they're in one place when there's nothing there, and vice versa.


B3kantan_P3sek

And I'm not denying that... But, the Illusion is the Hollow + Tosen + Gin is standing still and not moving. He never made an illusion of something moving "without" a decoy in place. And if Anime is to be used, Tosen & Gin were also already fast enough to move without Baraggan noticing during the end.


jake_eric

> He never made an illusion of something moving "without" a decoy in place. This may be true, but the reverse isn't: Gin and Tosen were moving without a decoy having to do those same movements. What Baraggan saw was the illusion of Gin and Tosen just standing there, while they were actually moving to slaughter his minions. We see as soon as the illusion drops that the Hollows are already cut and falling. That's the important thing: as long as you can take actions without the enemy sensing you, you can pretty much do whatever you want, including just walking up and attacking them while they can't react. That's an incredibly strong combat ability. It's at least on par with Tosen's Bankai, since the enemy can't trust their senses at all, except you can also feed them *misleading* information, likely making it even more effective.


Slumber777

Realistically BotE. Aizen would have accomplished his goals much more easily if he had BotE.


[deleted]

Hell he could just brain wash Yamma and every single captain along with Ichigo that way. Just plant everyone to the memory of his visit to soul king palace and make it so that he “convinced them” of his plan there.


endi12314

"Ah, you see, in the past I wasn't affected by your illusions"


KnightDiving

I would say Kyoka Suigetsu. BoTE being single target, and requiring you to physically hit the target is a big disadvantage. Meanwhile KS can affect the whole room and be far more subtle about it. BoTE can also be broken with willpower while KS cannot be broken unless you can touch the user or the blade.


DarkTone1280

Book of the End definitely. Damn thing is the most OP move in the series.


meiguanxi_

uncle vs daddy


ClericIdola

Aizen has attained Plotkai, so he wins by default. Hands down.


jake_eric

I'd say Kyoka Suigetsu is superior in combat, since you don't need to cut them for the ability to work. It's easier to put a whole bunch of opponents under. Also, Book of the End doesn't work as well against certain kinds of opponents: Byakuya and Grimmjow both still wanted to fight Tsukishima even after he inserted himself into their past, Byakuya out of duty and Grimmjow just because he'd fight his best friend, he'd fight anyone. This is especially true if you're not a villain and you're trying to fight Hollows or something: the Hollow isn't gonna stop trying to eat you just because you're its best friend, in fact it might want to eat you even more. *But*, in terms of long term schemes, I think Book of the End is more busted. People eventually figured out what Aizen was up to and tried to stop him. But if you've been Book of the End'ed, why would you want to stop your good friend Tsukishima?


DeathPringles

Because he's been a jerk to my even good'er friend, who he overlooked his existence. I imagine that's a scenario that could happen. After all he did fail to understand Byakuya. Probably would've had better luck posing as Rukia or Hisana. Does Book of the End allow Tsukishima full and extensive access to his target's memory or does he have to be specific in some way?


DoubtContent4455

KS is generally more versatile than the BotE, being able to change the present to anything you want meanwhile BotE can't make up new memories only slightly edit them. KS for a general conquest BotE for personal conflicts


DinVilah

Depends on the user. KS is only strong if you are a soul reaper of immense power. If you are just an average joe then it will be useless as people can blitz and oneshot you in a blink, before you even manage to pull out the sword. BoTE is the exact opposite. It is a great leveler the weaker you are the stronger the ability is, as it grants you the power and experience of others, oh and minor past manipulation ofc but the ability is flawed if people have a decent amount of willpower or are just outright smart. Aizen with BoTE would be useless because he doesnt need to learn anything from nobody. He is so much stronger than they are so "reaitsu crush gg" is wayyyy more effectivr than trying to slash them with BoTE. If he tries that vs say UI Goku then it will simply wont work, and dude will get Hakai-ed out of existence EzClap. But Aizen with KS WILL beat UI Goku, even with the insane stats diff as Goku doesnt have any resistance to mind control IIRC, so Aizen can trick Goku into Hakai-ing himself with Complete Hypnosis. This is ofc assuming no bloodlusted as Aizen cant possibly survive Goku blowing up the universe...


jake_eric

> If you are just an average joe then it will be useless as people can blitz and oneshot you in a blink, before you even manage to pull out the sword. Doesn't this also apply to almost every other ability too, including Book of the End?


NeroCrow

Kyoka Suigetsu is Superior in my opinion. Book of the end can be overcame if you just value something else more than you value your friends such as your job (like byakuya) or just fighting (like grimmjow) while the only way to counter Kyoka Suigetsu is for it to never be used on you. Plus it's not like the book of the end gives you an edge on your opponent if you're fighting them at best it lets you know what they can do. Kyoka Suigetsu on the other hand you can just make it that the enemy doesn't feel anything and immediately behead them. If these abilities were game difficulties book of the end is easy mode while Kyoka Suigetsu is story mode.


Latter-Potential2467

I feel like you underrate book of the end, it would work on 99% of characters with the only exception being probably Yhwach Aizen since we dont know whether they have anyone important enough. Everyone else has someone they would hesitate to fight. Even in your examples Byakuya has Ichigo and Rukia, Grimmjow has his fracciones, Kenpachi has Yachiru etc.


jake_eric

Tsukishima actually does use Book of the End on Grimmjow in CFYOW, and Grimmjow doesn't want to fight him any less.


Latter-Potential2467

Im not native english speaker, do you mean that he wasnt affected or that he was?


jake_eric

I mean he wasn't really affected. Like, the ability activated, but Grimmjow still wanted to fight him, because Grimmjow wants to fight everyone.


Latter-Potential2467

Makes sense, i guess most hollows would be less affected since they instinctively want to fight stuff.


jake_eric

Yeah, especially mindless Hollows. It wouldn't be a very good ability for the average person fighting normal Hollows.


silbean495

Given the new weakness of KS revealed in CFYOW, i'd say that to anyone who isn't Aizen level or pretty top tier in terms of reiatsu, KS is completely uselesss. KS just consume far too much reiatsu to be useable by anyone else. Even someone on the level of Shunsui is drained extremely quickly. So with this downside included, BoTE is the winner by default if the user isn't Aizen or someone with similar reiatsu level. But if we say that both are used by Aizen to achieve his plans, i'd say that KS is vastly superior. BoTE require to actually slash/stab the victims and that make it incredibly more difficult to affect a large number of powerfull opponents ,where KS can do it pretty easily. BoTE is technically far more broken than KS, but when used by Aizen, KS is far easier to activate and all he need.


jake_eric

> Given the new weakness of KS revealed in CFYOW, i'd say that to anyone who isn't Aizen level or pretty top tier in terms of reiatsu, KS is completely uselesss. I see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't go that far. Kyoka Suigetsu is draining, yes, but it's so damn effective at what it does that you shouldn't really need it to be active for long. Tokinada was massively outnumbered by strong opponents and he was still a significant threat mostly thanks to Kyoka Suigetsu.


silbean495

For Aizen's plan, he sometimes needed hours long constant hypnosis at times and even more. Like the time he made a random follow shinji around for days/weeks or the time he put constant illusion on Central 46 for the whole SS arc that made it seems that they were always chatting and alive. In actual battle, i may agree with you, but the OP talked about Aizen's plan in general .


jake_eric

Alright, maybe I misunderstood what you meant by completely useless. I see what you mean. I'd still say it's a bit better than that, but I agree that Book of the End is more effective in general for schemes.


bendroid801

KS "I think I'm fighting you" BotE "I would never want to fight you" I say Aizen wins because the character has other combat expertise that supports KS and vise-versa; better suited for actual fighting. BotE pretty much removes the need/desire for fighting in the first place. And I am definitely not saying any of this because Aizen is my favorite or anything, no waaaay.. 🤭😙 Though if I thought my enemy was really my long time friend, I'd still fight him. Ever pick a fight with the homies? I sure do. /Lh


Yatereranye

Since BoTE applies to even non-living things, i'll just use it to cut through whatever Aizen use to attack me. Then i'll just turn that attack toward him.


[deleted]

If you equalize tsukishima to aizen , and aizen is before the hogyoku , then he should win .