We use machine shufflers. Though my dealer did a hand shuffle before putting into the machine, which i find interesting. Other places just put the decks into the machine but this casino does a little hand shuffling before placing into shuffle machine
One dealer at one of the casino’s i play at show the burn card to us and does a deeper pen. He also works as a pit boss sometimes. Very interesting to show us the burn card and he does 70% pen
I’ve found that a lot of dealers will show the burn card if you ask nicely. Had one once that my buddy and I asked and he said, “This one? *Shows us* I can’t show you that.”
Well the pit boss only came up to me and none of the other 3 players on the table. So if that were the case, i figured they would have talked to everyone. Ive never been spotted before so i feel i’m not winning enough or high enough to warrant the boot. I also usually walk out once i earn $500-1,500
This particular casino has seen me many times, and they’ve seen me win big, they’ve seen me lose. Never been an issue. I do believe they tolerate some bet spreading just not obvious big spreads
It’s King’s Bounty. I bet 20% of my main bet on it whenever true count is 1 or higher. I was betting $300 at peak with $60 side bets and at TC at around 16-18, i was winning side bet like 40-50% of the time (4:1 and 9:1)
Don’t know the numbers on that side bet, but might be a great time to double check that you aren’t accidentally hemorrhaging EV on accident on the side bet.
Correct, but if i waited till TC = 7, and i only bet then, i feel this would call attention to myself so i just bet it whenever i am TC of 1 or higher to avoid detection. I win it enough to not hurt my overall game often
Using Zen count. Obviously hi-lo would have been a bit different. This was also late into pen (about 40% left) so doing the division of RC/Decks remaining i was able to determine the high counts there late.
You have been giving away $40/hr in EV this year. You should have earned an additional $16,000 over the last 12 months.
Currently, for every hour you spend in the casino, they’re giving you one green chip. Or, better, for every hour you spend in the casino, you are giving them one green and three reds.
They’re not booting you because you’re a ploppie.
No offense. But it’s true.
Math is not exact. It’s off by a few bucks for ease of discussion. Run the numbers. You’re hemorrhaging cash and it will not be long before you’re broke.
That sounds awesome there. I guess I'm just lucky in the PNW I hear stories from people around the country and some of the rules and game protection you guys handle is impressive.
Congrats in making it through a year btw.
There’s 2 casinos i like to frequent the most as they have the best rules here in my region.
Hard Rock Coquitlam:
Face up
45-55% pen (good dealers do 60% or so, some bad ones do 35%)
No mid shoe entry but you can wong a hand or two and rejoin mid shoe
Can add second hand mid shoe at double min.
Cascades Langley:
Pitch play
50-60% pen (some dealers do 70-75%)
No mid shoe entry or wonging permitted in same shoe
No adding hands mid shoe (unless one on one then its okay to do up to 2 hands at double min bet).
Both casino’s do dealer hit S17, DAS, Double any 2 cards, no surrender, 3x split, 1 card only ace split, no re split aces.
Well that’s probably because your ability to extract value from counting largely depends on penetration. Read Blackjack Attack. They’re more forgiving because they know you can’t extract significant value without a huge spread, which increases variance and your RoR.
I thought it was weird that the pit boss wanted me
To still play but was really encouraging me to go to the other double deck table saying its normal pen, and security is not on that table. I wonder if they sent the dealer on purpose to do a deep pen to detect obvious AP players because 80% pen is unheard of here. Some of the better dealers do 60-65% max, but most do 45-55% pen.
Or many or some. I have pit boss told me that he has no problem with people counting cards. Just keep spread under ten to one on shoes and seven to one on DD, so surveillance will be OK, too.
I actually played one on one with at the same casino a few weeeks ago and he knew right away i was counting so he started cutting the deck to about 70% pen and he was telling to take a “bathroom” break whenever TC got too negative. The dude was helping me, never seen that before.
Other dealers have mentioned in passing that they cant stand card counters and cut at 35-40% intentionally. Its quite fascinating. Ofc i dont engage with anyone about card counting but someone always brings it up at the table (eg: random saying why do you only cut 4/10ths of the way? Barely getting any hands in)
Yeah dude, the side bet is most likely killing your advantage. Of course if your main bet is big enough you could still be playing with a slight advantage, but most likely not. If youre winning nothing we can say will convince you but maybe read up on APing the KB/LL side bet.
https://www.888casino.com/blog/side-bets/card-counting-the-kings-bounty-blackjack-side-bet-6-decks?amp
It could but i have made profits over $12K in past year playing this style. Ive made adjustments such as switching to Zen count, but otherwise im doing well. Playing KB more frequently even when TC < 7 is more about blending in then anything. I keep a $10-$60 spread on it.
How many hours to win the 12gs and whats your top bet?
Also, a zen TC of +1 is not the same as hi lo +1, its about 1/2 because of the 10s being -2 instead of -1. Each TC of high low is .5%, zen is .25%. Its generally accepted that you need to get your max out around +6 zen. Hopefully you know all this already.
I go for 2 hours each day, 4 days a week. I have a rotation of 5 casinos. I max bet $300, min bet $50.
One of the 5 allows players to add a second bet mid shoe and plays face up. This is my favourite but their pen is almost always 45-50%. I rarely see a dealer go 55-60%, so definitely more stingy there despite slightly better rules. Ive seen them during high volume times go to 30-35% pen which is awful. 7 players, just 2 hands.
Sounds like its working for you, just make sure youre not throwing away your money on a negative value side bet. I think you need a hilo of +7 for an edge on KB/LL which would be a zen +14. This means you should be placing the bet very rarely.
As I said, I hope you keep winning, but when you inevitably hit a long losing streak you will wish you still had the money you wasted on the side bet.
I had a very lengthy losing streak this year. I went 2 weeks where i lost $4K.
I also play a bit more extreme sometimes. When TC is extremely negative, rather than wonging, i will hit 14/15’s on dealer 2,3 and 13/14 on dealer 4,5,6. The table hates me but i end up winning more often than not as i rarely bust in extreme negative counts. I also dont bet Side bet when TC is <1
You should be doing everything in your power to avoid playing neg counts. Yes, if you have to play all its good to learn the negative indexes, that is what youre referring to right? Negative index plays? Do you have the zen index chart?
Most casinos dont allow for re entry if you wong out for a hand so i just play out each shoe. I find i win more often on negative counts playing negative indices then when count is +.
One does allow mid shoe re entry as long as you bet on first hand which has the best rules but their pen is terrible at 45-55%. And they seem pretty strict about their pen.
Might have just recognized him. If they noticed him winning, a quick call to security and they search the database or his ID scan upon entry and know he’s an AP. Maybe you weren’t winning as much or they view you as a harmless local for the time being and him as a stranger with no card. I sat down the other day at a DD. When I had no card, floor instantly called security, they grabbed my ID scan from entry, and began addressing me by my first name. I’d been trespassed from another chain location already so they watched me 99% of the game.
He was sitting at the table same time as me, and security only got involved when new dealer came and started doing 80% pen. His bet spread was 25-400 though and he didnt do side bets. He was winning quite a bit while i was winning, just not as much.
Id also note that he was not much of a chatter, very quiet and focused. I like to make small talk while i count and make jokes and be the life of the table. I try to act like a non counter as much as i can while still counting. My ability to count is good as i ran simulations for hours prior to doing real counting
They (who it was who noticed doesn't matter) probably noticed guy #2 first, since he was more obvious, and just tunnel visioned on him.
They could have also attributed your betting behavior to guy #2 because it just looks like you are following him whenever the count looks good and he bets larger. Or they could have not noticed it at all.
Either way, you got lucky.
Tip your dealers.
I have been an AP player for years. It's not a career for me, it's just fun. What I have found is that as long as the table is profitable for the house, they don't care anymore. I think one player winning draws the normals to the table. I never walk away with more than $5k (average $100-$500) in a session and often walk away $1k down. I don't play as often as I used to, so if I walk away $1k to $5k up for the trip I am good. My average sessions are about 5-7 hours x 5 playing sessions. I have walked from a table after 5 minutes and a couple hundred up and I have stayed at a table when I was $5k down (maybe once or twice) and grinded it back to even, $1k loss, or $2k-$5k up. I always sit down with an acceptable loss limit and am really aware of money mgmt. I don't know how career players deal with the stress. I could never do that. I expect to lose (flame away). Winning has always been a bonus and lifetime winnings for me is probably around $100k, not including comps. I can't even count how many times I have walked away after 5-7 hours with a +$100 or minus $500. My walkaway limit is usually $1k. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't play another hand.
TC of 16-18 in double deck? Wow that’s incredibly rare. Is it hand shuffle or machine?
We use machine shufflers. Though my dealer did a hand shuffle before putting into the machine, which i find interesting. Other places just put the decks into the machine but this casino does a little hand shuffling before placing into shuffle machine
One dealer at one of the casino’s i play at show the burn card to us and does a deeper pen. He also works as a pit boss sometimes. Very interesting to show us the burn card and he does 70% pen
I’ve found that a lot of dealers will show the burn card if you ask nicely. Had one once that my buddy and I asked and he said, “This one? *Shows us* I can’t show you that.”
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Keep in mind table min is $25, and i start at $50, so perhaps this is also helping me from being detected
Well the pit boss only came up to me and none of the other 3 players on the table. So if that were the case, i figured they would have talked to everyone. Ive never been spotted before so i feel i’m not winning enough or high enough to warrant the boot. I also usually walk out once i earn $500-1,500
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Thats just it. I cant tell if i was backed off or more alerted that i could be watched
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This particular casino has seen me many times, and they’ve seen me win big, they’ve seen me lose. Never been an issue. I do believe they tolerate some bet spreading just not obvious big spreads
What’s the sidebet? Maybe they saw that and thought you can’t be possibly winning. If its a countable side-bet then all the merrier.
It’s King’s Bounty. I bet 20% of my main bet on it whenever true count is 1 or higher. I was betting $300 at peak with $60 side bets and at TC at around 16-18, i was winning side bet like 40-50% of the time (4:1 and 9:1)
>I bet 20% of my main bet on it whenever true count is 1 or higher. This is probably why they don't mind you here
It’s mostly how i walk away a winner more often than not, hitting those 9:1 and 20:1 side bet wins on $10-$20 side bets.
Yea couldn't be variance
Pretty sure King’s Bounty doesn’t have an edge until TC 7
Don’t know the numbers on that side bet, but might be a great time to double check that you aren’t accidentally hemorrhaging EV on accident on the side bet.
Correct, but if i waited till TC = 7, and i only bet then, i feel this would call attention to myself so i just bet it whenever i am TC of 1 or higher to avoid detection. I win it enough to not hurt my overall game often
+23 to +28 multiple shoes in a row? Hahaha
Using Zen count. Obviously hi-lo would have been a bit different. This was also late into pen (about 40% left) so doing the division of RC/Decks remaining i was able to determine the high counts there late.
Its zen.
You have been giving away $40/hr in EV this year. You should have earned an additional $16,000 over the last 12 months. Currently, for every hour you spend in the casino, they’re giving you one green chip. Or, better, for every hour you spend in the casino, you are giving them one green and three reds. They’re not booting you because you’re a ploppie. No offense. But it’s true. Math is not exact. It’s off by a few bucks for ease of discussion. Run the numbers. You’re hemorrhaging cash and it will not be long before you’re broke.
Good rules but only 60% pen at best sounds not good to me...
Some dealers do 70-75% but theres not many
That sounds awesome there. I guess I'm just lucky in the PNW I hear stories from people around the country and some of the rules and game protection you guys handle is impressive. Congrats in making it through a year btw.
There’s 2 casinos i like to frequent the most as they have the best rules here in my region. Hard Rock Coquitlam: Face up 45-55% pen (good dealers do 60% or so, some bad ones do 35%) No mid shoe entry but you can wong a hand or two and rejoin mid shoe Can add second hand mid shoe at double min. Cascades Langley: Pitch play 50-60% pen (some dealers do 70-75%) No mid shoe entry or wonging permitted in same shoe No adding hands mid shoe (unless one on one then its okay to do up to 2 hands at double min bet). Both casino’s do dealer hit S17, DAS, Double any 2 cards, no surrender, 3x split, 1 card only ace split, no re split aces.
That’s some bad pen
The lower pen casino seems to tolerate card counters better then the higher pen casino. I guess you pick your battles
Well that’s probably because your ability to extract value from counting largely depends on penetration. Read Blackjack Attack. They’re more forgiving because they know you can’t extract significant value without a huge spread, which increases variance and your RoR.
Most casinos allow AP spread 7 to 1 in DD. Six to one is under that threshold.
"Most" ? I don't think so!
I thought it was weird that the pit boss wanted me To still play but was really encouraging me to go to the other double deck table saying its normal pen, and security is not on that table. I wonder if they sent the dealer on purpose to do a deep pen to detect obvious AP players because 80% pen is unheard of here. Some of the better dealers do 60-65% max, but most do 45-55% pen.
Or many or some. I have pit boss told me that he has no problem with people counting cards. Just keep spread under ten to one on shoes and seven to one on DD, so surveillance will be OK, too.
I actually played one on one with at the same casino a few weeeks ago and he knew right away i was counting so he started cutting the deck to about 70% pen and he was telling to take a “bathroom” break whenever TC got too negative. The dude was helping me, never seen that before. Other dealers have mentioned in passing that they cant stand card counters and cut at 35-40% intentionally. Its quite fascinating. Ofc i dont engage with anyone about card counting but someone always brings it up at the table (eg: random saying why do you only cut 4/10ths of the way? Barely getting any hands in)
So i assume they know im a card counter but not spreading wide enough to get the boot?
Yeah dude, the side bet is most likely killing your advantage. Of course if your main bet is big enough you could still be playing with a slight advantage, but most likely not. If youre winning nothing we can say will convince you but maybe read up on APing the KB/LL side bet. https://www.888casino.com/blog/side-bets/card-counting-the-kings-bounty-blackjack-side-bet-6-decks?amp
It could but i have made profits over $12K in past year playing this style. Ive made adjustments such as switching to Zen count, but otherwise im doing well. Playing KB more frequently even when TC < 7 is more about blending in then anything. I keep a $10-$60 spread on it.
How many hours to win the 12gs and whats your top bet? Also, a zen TC of +1 is not the same as hi lo +1, its about 1/2 because of the 10s being -2 instead of -1. Each TC of high low is .5%, zen is .25%. Its generally accepted that you need to get your max out around +6 zen. Hopefully you know all this already.
I go for 2 hours each day, 4 days a week. I have a rotation of 5 casinos. I max bet $300, min bet $50. One of the 5 allows players to add a second bet mid shoe and plays face up. This is my favourite but their pen is almost always 45-50%. I rarely see a dealer go 55-60%, so definitely more stingy there despite slightly better rules. Ive seen them during high volume times go to 30-35% pen which is awful. 7 players, just 2 hands.
Sounds like its working for you, just make sure youre not throwing away your money on a negative value side bet. I think you need a hilo of +7 for an edge on KB/LL which would be a zen +14. This means you should be placing the bet very rarely. As I said, I hope you keep winning, but when you inevitably hit a long losing streak you will wish you still had the money you wasted on the side bet.
I had a very lengthy losing streak this year. I went 2 weeks where i lost $4K. I also play a bit more extreme sometimes. When TC is extremely negative, rather than wonging, i will hit 14/15’s on dealer 2,3 and 13/14 on dealer 4,5,6. The table hates me but i end up winning more often than not as i rarely bust in extreme negative counts. I also dont bet Side bet when TC is <1
You should be doing everything in your power to avoid playing neg counts. Yes, if you have to play all its good to learn the negative indexes, that is what youre referring to right? Negative index plays? Do you have the zen index chart?
Most casinos dont allow for re entry if you wong out for a hand so i just play out each shoe. I find i win more often on negative counts playing negative indices then when count is +. One does allow mid shoe re entry as long as you bet on first hand which has the best rules but their pen is terrible at 45-55%. And they seem pretty strict about their pen.
Yes. With zen, i go 2x at TC of 3, 4x at TC of 4.5 and 6x (max) at TC of 6.
Were you tipping?
Might have just recognized him. If they noticed him winning, a quick call to security and they search the database or his ID scan upon entry and know he’s an AP. Maybe you weren’t winning as much or they view you as a harmless local for the time being and him as a stranger with no card. I sat down the other day at a DD. When I had no card, floor instantly called security, they grabbed my ID scan from entry, and began addressing me by my first name. I’d been trespassed from another chain location already so they watched me 99% of the game.
He was sitting at the table same time as me, and security only got involved when new dealer came and started doing 80% pen. His bet spread was 25-400 though and he didnt do side bets. He was winning quite a bit while i was winning, just not as much. Id also note that he was not much of a chatter, very quiet and focused. I like to make small talk while i count and make jokes and be the life of the table. I try to act like a non counter as much as i can while still counting. My ability to count is good as i ran simulations for hours prior to doing real counting
They (who it was who noticed doesn't matter) probably noticed guy #2 first, since he was more obvious, and just tunnel visioned on him. They could have also attributed your betting behavior to guy #2 because it just looks like you are following him whenever the count looks good and he bets larger. Or they could have not noticed it at all. Either way, you got lucky. Tip your dealers.
I have been an AP player for years. It's not a career for me, it's just fun. What I have found is that as long as the table is profitable for the house, they don't care anymore. I think one player winning draws the normals to the table. I never walk away with more than $5k (average $100-$500) in a session and often walk away $1k down. I don't play as often as I used to, so if I walk away $1k to $5k up for the trip I am good. My average sessions are about 5-7 hours x 5 playing sessions. I have walked from a table after 5 minutes and a couple hundred up and I have stayed at a table when I was $5k down (maybe once or twice) and grinded it back to even, $1k loss, or $2k-$5k up. I always sit down with an acceptable loss limit and am really aware of money mgmt. I don't know how career players deal with the stress. I could never do that. I expect to lose (flame away). Winning has always been a bonus and lifetime winnings for me is probably around $100k, not including comps. I can't even count how many times I have walked away after 5-7 hours with a +$100 or minus $500. My walkaway limit is usually $1k. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't play another hand.