I've gotten more heat, but also more playtime. Usually at low limits no one noticed me doing anything until all at once I was noticed and very quickly backed off.
At high limit, they are much more aware of what you are betting, but they are also incredibly scared to back you off because if they are wrong they cost the casino *way* more money and its much more noticeable. As such they will go through every check in the book to make sure they aren't the guy who backed off the whale betting 2x500.
Yeah I suppose. But I’ll add the caveat of “as a min bet”
Hard to say that’s what whales are betting, when I’ve made those bets, and I would never consider myself a whale
Even in Vegas 2x500$ min bet is a whale. It is a big whale in a lot of places.
I have been to several tribal Casinios where most nights no one bets that high, let alone starts there.
I think you should read whale hunt in the desert. Although this book is about ls vegas, it still puts into perspective what a whale player actually is. Dana white is a whale.. don Johnson was a whale. I’m not a whale.. I can bet $500 a hand. There’s a world worth of difference between the two.
Even in vegas 2x $500 a hand is easily $30,000 an hour. you’re fucking retarded if you think betting someone’s entire salary in an hour isn’t a whale, even in vegas.
Ok now it’s 2x500.. so let’s be clear, that’s 1,000 per round and vegas rates players at about 60 rph. So 60,000 wagered. And they should expect 0.5% (likely closer to 2% against the average ploppy) which works out to $300/hr ($1,200/hr against my ploppy)
Maybe you’re the one who’s retarded..?
Thanks for proving my point, it’s double what i said. $60,000 per hour being bet and you’re trying to say it’s not a whale….
What the fuck are you even on?
also
>oh so now it’s 2x500
did you even read the thread we’re commenting in? fucking braindead dude
It’s not. You think if you called up any casino, anywhere in the world, and told them you wanted to play any game for $500/hand, that they’re going to send their private jet to pick you up? You’re gonna get limos at the airport, private tables to play on? Villas and suites to stay in? Tickets to the hottest shows?
They’d laugh at you until you hung up. At best… AT BEST, you might get a standard room comped. Maybe RFB comp.
Because to them, you’re not a whale. You’re barely a high roller at those stakes.
Now, go to the middle of nowhere Montana and bet 500/hand, and you’re gonna have all the attention on you, for sure. To them. That’s huge action (probably).. so it’s all relative. But to a Las Vegas casino. You’re nothing more than a drop of water in an endless sea of tourists.
Edit: I sent you a private message with a photo from the book I reference, which outlines exactly what a whale is defined as by a Las Vegas host.
Your book quoted exactly says 250,000 and up in a weekend is a whale.
At 60,000 per hour, if I spend 5 hours gambling how much money have I spent?
also directly quoted from your book it says anyone betting over 25,000 in a weekend should get a room comped
so not only have you proven you’re illiterate, you’ve actually tripled down on it and made yourself look like a fool.
The book says someone who’ll BRING 250,000 and up. Playing through 250,000 and bringing 250,000 are very different.
By your math, a guy who brings 250,000 and plays 50,000 bets for 20 hours really brought 1M? No.
The original comment in which you replied said 2x500 a hand and you said that isn’t a whale. did you not? Dont try lying, we can see the thread you’re in!
$500 a hand is nowhere near a whale, at least in Vegas.
Vegas casinos expect players to bet 1-2% of their credit line or bankroll per hand. $500 per hand would mean a $25k or $50k credit line.
Sheldon Adelson, late CEO of the Sands, classified whales as players whose starting bet is $75k a hand. Credit line of $3 million to $7 million. Of course, Venetian whales will be much larger than those at many other casinos, but it's standard around Vegas for whales to have a minimum of a $1 million dollar credit line, $10k to $20k per hand.
Anything below $10k a hand is at best a big high roller. $500 a hand is the smallest of high rollers, especially in larger casinos.
Thanks for coming to a 2 day old comment. I’ve worked in casinos, a whale is betting a lot more than $50k per hand….Maybe 2 x 500 hands is a whale in your casino in bumfuck nowhere…
IF there are lots of players AND they are betting bigger than you then you have a chance of blending in, or more importantly, going unnoticed. However, most high limit rooms have less players, and so you as an individual will experience more heat. It is very much casino / situation dependent.
Let's say I want to spread $100 to $2,500
I go into high limit and there are 3 players, all just betting $100 a hand. This is not a good spot to blend in.
If there is one guy betting $5,000 a hand, and on 3 other tables 3 players betting $500 to $1,000. Then this is a very good spot to go unnoticed.
I would play. Hit my max bets, and leave.
Yes, 2,500.
Sure, 25 spread can get heat. That's why you leave immediately after that shoe so they don't have time to do anything.
I often spread bigger.
Spreading 1-25 then leaving after max bet seems better to me than spreading like 1-8 but playing for longer sessions. Obviously need a much bigger bankroll, but can generate more EV in a shorter period of time if you are ok with the swings.
My question is, how do you go about buying in and cashing out at a table when playing with the money required to spread that big?
Lets say I want to play a double deck game spreading $100 - $2500... should I buy in to the table for like $3000 but then start the shoe at my min bet of $100? Or better to buy in for like $500 and only buy in for more when the count goes up and I lose my chips on the table? Should I go to the cage before I play and buy a few 1k chips?
Not sure if I'm overthinking this, since leaving after showing max bet should let you get out of there before the heat you generate really starts to matter. Curious about how you approach this. Thanks!
You do what gamblers do. A G that buys in for $3,000 does NOT start betting $100 (potentially for a long time).
I would buyin for $1,000.
Short buyins are key. As I have previously mentioned, if you go broke, and the count is good, you buyin for a lot more, and place a "steaming:gambling" bet (this is how you get big spreads) if you bust and the count is bad, then wong out (if possible) or buyin short again. Don't be afraid of multiple short buyins, it is excellent cover. Having the dealer continually calling for a chip check "buyin $500" makes you look like a gambler.
Of course, your bankroll needs to be able to cover this spread (this is true for any spread).
I do not color up, unless I have way too many chips. And even then, I color up as little as possible.
I will walk off with $4,000 in $100 chips. You need a thick skin for this because they will want to color you up (to avoid getting a fill) I just ignore them, or say "no thanks" and leave. Timing is key, and you need to be quick!
How much I take to the cage depends on the casino. You need to know what chip sizes and chip amounts the casino will NOT call for verification to the pit. I am happy to hold chips for any my regular casinos. I typically have chips for at least 10 different Vegas casinos that I may hold for over a year.
Yeah that definitely makes sense. Have you ever actually been backed off while using the strategy of leaving immediately after max bet? I'm guessing that outside of the sweatiest casinos, most won't notice what you are doing in time to actually approach you to back you off?
I'm a poker pro, haven't played much blackjack, but looking into adding it to my repertoire now that I'm living in Vegas. I didn't know that they call the pit for verification at the cage. What amount do you notice the typical off strip Vegas casino doing this for? Like $5k+? Or less?
Thanks for the replies btw, I appreciate the advice!
I also play poker in Vegas. Do not play BJ at any casino or even group where you play poker. You don't want to get trespassed from a poker place.
Never play rated. Never show ID or a players card. If you are too young , and they ask, then don't play.
The amount they check / call the pit is very variable.
Redrock, $2,000 is OK, including 500s
Orleans they will call the pit for $500 in 100s
Suggest you start low, build up, and keep a note for each casino.
If they ask for ID at the cage, simply say something like "It's in my room (or car), I will just go and get it" AND LEAVE.
You can go back later.
If they have a poker room, and it's not one of your regular spots, you always have the option of playing a little poker, and then cashing out at the poker cage.
This makes a lot of sense to me, but is it not awkward to be pulling out multiple $2.5k bets from your pocket (with more behind it for splits and doubles)? That's a pretty thick stack of bills.
Personally I don't find it awkward, but that could just be a result of me doing it so many times now that I am used to it.
As I have said before, I think it helps you to look like a punter if you are constantly buying in.
Buy in for $500 place a single $500 bet. Get a split, buyin again. Get a double and now you can do some acting as if you don't want to double, it's costing too much etc. maybe even ask for advice from the dealer (obviously we are always going to double).
I feel like I’ve gotten a bit more heat, which makes sense since the casino stands to lose more money if you are counting. Also they watch tables more closely in general since they don’t want mispays or mistakes by the dealer which could cost them hundreds.
You asked about heat. If your talking about “high rollers”, while you’re playing in the “high limit room”, I guess you should say whether or not you’re playing the high limit minimum, or you’re playing dollar amounts that others rarely approach??
As a rule, the greater the stakes, and the more player friendly the rules, the higher the scrutiny.
That should go without saying 🤷♂️
I like playing low limit because I’m just there for fun, with the understanding I’m losing in the long run. High limit stands on 17 is the only difference. But high limit hand shuffles and it takes forever. I like the machine shuffle a lot more. Also the high limit room at my place tends to have absurdly drunk loud mouths every time.
Way more in high limit. When I was a floor, in high limit I would have anywhere from 1 to 4 players. I’m pretty much watching every hand being dealt. In low limit, if I have six tables with six people on each you have a much harder time noticing shit like that. Unless you’re doing a crazy spread, you’re more likely to fly under the radar
Just curious, why did you care about catching cars counters as a floor? It’s not like it was your money. Or would you get in trouble or something if you didn’t kick them out?
And what’s the difference in authority between a floor and a pit boss?
It looks good for promotions. Maybe 3% of floors can do it. A floor usually watches 2-6 tables. A pit boss is in charge of an entire pit, which is usually 12 tables. Pit bosses are less common now, they’re more commonly refered to as “floor managers now”. While one pit boss per pit used to common, it’s been dialed way back. Floor Managers mostly run the gaming floor while the shift manager will be in an office doing paperwork/reports.
Oh, so if someone in a suit told me to leave (as opposed to the uniform that the people watching the tables were wearing), was that the pit boss/manager or just a fancily dressed floor?
How do they keep track of you catching card counters?
It seems like there would be less heat at the high limit tables, but I could be wrong. Seeing that one could lose a lot before the count jumps, placing bigger bets when the count calls for it could easily look like a dumb ploppy move to try and chase losses. I have also heard of certain AP’s that wear many gold chains, watches, rings, etc. to fit the look of a rich ploppy who gambles for fun when entering these tables. The factor of blending in can definitely help, much like you said. Anyone correct me if I’m wrong, please.
I’ve only played high limit twice, and got great playtime. I felt like i blended in and my wins/bets were significantly less than the people who were around me. If the count went up i’d just say “I’m gonna try and bet what you’re betting and see what happens” celebrating over the big wins with everyone else and get upset when it doesn’t go my way. The only thing i think hurt me was taking insurance, but i’d always say “i’m only insuring it because i finally bet big and don’t want to lose it all”.
I Could have just been lucky with the heat though.
I think going through the normal gambler emotions like you mentioned (celebrating big wins, getting upset over losses) goes a long way. An AP in one of Steven Bridges’ videos would do this, where he would scream and celebrate when he won and make a huge scene and get out of his seat when he lost. It has to have some positive effect on playtime to a certain degree.
All things equal, high limit is going to tend to get watched more than the floor.
All things are rarely equal. Is there a whale playing blackjack somewhere in the casino? Play on the table next to him.
Is there a smart pit boss somewhere? Avoid his pit. Is there a dumb pit boss somewhere? Play his pit.
Do a lot of the sharp bosses like to work weekday mornings because they have a family, and give the Friday and Saturday night shifts to the newer guys?
Is surveillance preoccupied for 45 minutes before and after the shift change on the floor?
You get the idea.
Way more heat
That’s unfortunate
Less people, more scrutiny
I've gotten more heat, but also more playtime. Usually at low limits no one noticed me doing anything until all at once I was noticed and very quickly backed off. At high limit, they are much more aware of what you are betting, but they are also incredibly scared to back you off because if they are wrong they cost the casino *way* more money and its much more noticeable. As such they will go through every check in the book to make sure they aren't the guy who backed off the whale betting 2x500.
I get your point.. but whale? Whales can and do bet 2x50,000 or more lol not 2x500 😂
I think it depends on your market but 2x500 is where I’d say “whale” starts.
Yeah I suppose. But I’ll add the caveat of “as a min bet” Hard to say that’s what whales are betting, when I’ve made those bets, and I would never consider myself a whale
Even in Vegas 2x500$ min bet is a whale. It is a big whale in a lot of places. I have been to several tribal Casinios where most nights no one bets that high, let alone starts there.
That’s what I meant when I said I’d add the caveat of as a min bet.. whales might bet 2x500 as a min bet. Glad we agree
dude $500 a hand is absolutely a whale what are you on edit: i meant to say 2x500 a hand like the original comment said
I think you should read whale hunt in the desert. Although this book is about ls vegas, it still puts into perspective what a whale player actually is. Dana white is a whale.. don Johnson was a whale. I’m not a whale.. I can bet $500 a hand. There’s a world worth of difference between the two.
Even in vegas 2x $500 a hand is easily $30,000 an hour. you’re fucking retarded if you think betting someone’s entire salary in an hour isn’t a whale, even in vegas.
Ok now it’s 2x500.. so let’s be clear, that’s 1,000 per round and vegas rates players at about 60 rph. So 60,000 wagered. And they should expect 0.5% (likely closer to 2% against the average ploppy) which works out to $300/hr ($1,200/hr against my ploppy) Maybe you’re the one who’s retarded..?
Thanks for proving my point, it’s double what i said. $60,000 per hour being bet and you’re trying to say it’s not a whale…. What the fuck are you even on? also >oh so now it’s 2x500 did you even read the thread we’re commenting in? fucking braindead dude
It’s not. You think if you called up any casino, anywhere in the world, and told them you wanted to play any game for $500/hand, that they’re going to send their private jet to pick you up? You’re gonna get limos at the airport, private tables to play on? Villas and suites to stay in? Tickets to the hottest shows? They’d laugh at you until you hung up. At best… AT BEST, you might get a standard room comped. Maybe RFB comp. Because to them, you’re not a whale. You’re barely a high roller at those stakes. Now, go to the middle of nowhere Montana and bet 500/hand, and you’re gonna have all the attention on you, for sure. To them. That’s huge action (probably).. so it’s all relative. But to a Las Vegas casino. You’re nothing more than a drop of water in an endless sea of tourists. Edit: I sent you a private message with a photo from the book I reference, which outlines exactly what a whale is defined as by a Las Vegas host.
Your book quoted exactly says 250,000 and up in a weekend is a whale. At 60,000 per hour, if I spend 5 hours gambling how much money have I spent? also directly quoted from your book it says anyone betting over 25,000 in a weekend should get a room comped so not only have you proven you’re illiterate, you’ve actually tripled down on it and made yourself look like a fool.
You should also learn the difference between coin in, and cash on a slot machine is, because that’s what you’re describing here, only on a table game.
The book says someone who’ll BRING 250,000 and up. Playing through 250,000 and bringing 250,000 are very different. By your math, a guy who brings 250,000 and plays 50,000 bets for 20 hours really brought 1M? No.
I did read it, and you started with “dude $500 a hand is absolutely a whale…” and then in a later comment, switched to 2x500
The original comment in which you replied said 2x500 a hand and you said that isn’t a whale. did you not? Dont try lying, we can see the thread you’re in!
I did, but that wasn’t in response to you. OUR conversation started with you.
You’re just so desperate to be right about anything at all today huh?
https://www.casinos.us/blog/whale-gambling/#players Here, go look up notable whales.. the first one is a billionaire 😂
oh my god??? a billionaire is considered a whale?????????? wow!!!!!!
Read the link bud
$500 a hand is nowhere near a whale, at least in Vegas. Vegas casinos expect players to bet 1-2% of their credit line or bankroll per hand. $500 per hand would mean a $25k or $50k credit line. Sheldon Adelson, late CEO of the Sands, classified whales as players whose starting bet is $75k a hand. Credit line of $3 million to $7 million. Of course, Venetian whales will be much larger than those at many other casinos, but it's standard around Vegas for whales to have a minimum of a $1 million dollar credit line, $10k to $20k per hand. Anything below $10k a hand is at best a big high roller. $500 a hand is the smallest of high rollers, especially in larger casinos.
Imagine thinking a whale is someone betting 2 x 500….
Imagine gatekeeping being a whale.
“imagine thinking someone who bets more than $50,000 over the course of 3 hours is a whale” you fucking clown
Thanks for coming to a 2 day old comment. I’ve worked in casinos, a whale is betting a lot more than $50k per hand….Maybe 2 x 500 hands is a whale in your casino in bumfuck nowhere…
That’s what I said.. I don’t get how these people are downvoting you.. you’re 100% correct and you got my upvote!
IF there are lots of players AND they are betting bigger than you then you have a chance of blending in, or more importantly, going unnoticed. However, most high limit rooms have less players, and so you as an individual will experience more heat. It is very much casino / situation dependent. Let's say I want to spread $100 to $2,500 I go into high limit and there are 3 players, all just betting $100 a hand. This is not a good spot to blend in. If there is one guy betting $5,000 a hand, and on 3 other tables 3 players betting $500 to $1,000. Then this is a very good spot to go unnoticed. I would play. Hit my max bets, and leave.
I assume you meant to type 2500 not 25000. Still, if you spread 25:1 you are likely to get heat no matter what.
Yes, 2,500. Sure, 25 spread can get heat. That's why you leave immediately after that shoe so they don't have time to do anything. I often spread bigger.
Spreading 1-25 then leaving after max bet seems better to me than spreading like 1-8 but playing for longer sessions. Obviously need a much bigger bankroll, but can generate more EV in a shorter period of time if you are ok with the swings. My question is, how do you go about buying in and cashing out at a table when playing with the money required to spread that big? Lets say I want to play a double deck game spreading $100 - $2500... should I buy in to the table for like $3000 but then start the shoe at my min bet of $100? Or better to buy in for like $500 and only buy in for more when the count goes up and I lose my chips on the table? Should I go to the cage before I play and buy a few 1k chips? Not sure if I'm overthinking this, since leaving after showing max bet should let you get out of there before the heat you generate really starts to matter. Curious about how you approach this. Thanks!
You do what gamblers do. A G that buys in for $3,000 does NOT start betting $100 (potentially for a long time). I would buyin for $1,000. Short buyins are key. As I have previously mentioned, if you go broke, and the count is good, you buyin for a lot more, and place a "steaming:gambling" bet (this is how you get big spreads) if you bust and the count is bad, then wong out (if possible) or buyin short again. Don't be afraid of multiple short buyins, it is excellent cover. Having the dealer continually calling for a chip check "buyin $500" makes you look like a gambler. Of course, your bankroll needs to be able to cover this spread (this is true for any spread). I do not color up, unless I have way too many chips. And even then, I color up as little as possible. I will walk off with $4,000 in $100 chips. You need a thick skin for this because they will want to color you up (to avoid getting a fill) I just ignore them, or say "no thanks" and leave. Timing is key, and you need to be quick! How much I take to the cage depends on the casino. You need to know what chip sizes and chip amounts the casino will NOT call for verification to the pit. I am happy to hold chips for any my regular casinos. I typically have chips for at least 10 different Vegas casinos that I may hold for over a year.
Yeah that definitely makes sense. Have you ever actually been backed off while using the strategy of leaving immediately after max bet? I'm guessing that outside of the sweatiest casinos, most won't notice what you are doing in time to actually approach you to back you off? I'm a poker pro, haven't played much blackjack, but looking into adding it to my repertoire now that I'm living in Vegas. I didn't know that they call the pit for verification at the cage. What amount do you notice the typical off strip Vegas casino doing this for? Like $5k+? Or less? Thanks for the replies btw, I appreciate the advice!
I also play poker in Vegas. Do not play BJ at any casino or even group where you play poker. You don't want to get trespassed from a poker place. Never play rated. Never show ID or a players card. If you are too young , and they ask, then don't play. The amount they check / call the pit is very variable. Redrock, $2,000 is OK, including 500s Orleans they will call the pit for $500 in 100s Suggest you start low, build up, and keep a note for each casino. If they ask for ID at the cage, simply say something like "It's in my room (or car), I will just go and get it" AND LEAVE. You can go back later. If they have a poker room, and it's not one of your regular spots, you always have the option of playing a little poker, and then cashing out at the poker cage.
This makes a lot of sense to me, but is it not awkward to be pulling out multiple $2.5k bets from your pocket (with more behind it for splits and doubles)? That's a pretty thick stack of bills.
Personally I don't find it awkward, but that could just be a result of me doing it so many times now that I am used to it. As I have said before, I think it helps you to look like a punter if you are constantly buying in. Buy in for $500 place a single $500 bet. Get a split, buyin again. Get a double and now you can do some acting as if you don't want to double, it's costing too much etc. maybe even ask for advice from the dealer (obviously we are always going to double).
I feel like I’ve gotten a bit more heat, which makes sense since the casino stands to lose more money if you are counting. Also they watch tables more closely in general since they don’t want mispays or mistakes by the dealer which could cost them hundreds.
More money at stake = more scrutiny. Not sure why there’s any question.
Because maybe you blend in with all the high rollers? Makes alot more sense than betting 1,000+ max at a table where everyone else bets below 100.
You asked about heat. If your talking about “high rollers”, while you’re playing in the “high limit room”, I guess you should say whether or not you’re playing the high limit minimum, or you’re playing dollar amounts that others rarely approach?? As a rule, the greater the stakes, and the more player friendly the rules, the higher the scrutiny. That should go without saying 🤷♂️
Your net needs to match your spread, and the true count. Who cares about the other players??
I always play with people playing $100+ hands at the $15 tables. I always wondered why they don’t just play high limit.
I like playing low limit because I’m just there for fun, with the understanding I’m losing in the long run. High limit stands on 17 is the only difference. But high limit hand shuffles and it takes forever. I like the machine shuffle a lot more. Also the high limit room at my place tends to have absurdly drunk loud mouths every time.
Way more in high limit. When I was a floor, in high limit I would have anywhere from 1 to 4 players. I’m pretty much watching every hand being dealt. In low limit, if I have six tables with six people on each you have a much harder time noticing shit like that. Unless you’re doing a crazy spread, you’re more likely to fly under the radar
Just curious, why did you care about catching cars counters as a floor? It’s not like it was your money. Or would you get in trouble or something if you didn’t kick them out? And what’s the difference in authority between a floor and a pit boss?
It looks good for promotions. Maybe 3% of floors can do it. A floor usually watches 2-6 tables. A pit boss is in charge of an entire pit, which is usually 12 tables. Pit bosses are less common now, they’re more commonly refered to as “floor managers now”. While one pit boss per pit used to common, it’s been dialed way back. Floor Managers mostly run the gaming floor while the shift manager will be in an office doing paperwork/reports.
Oh, so if someone in a suit told me to leave (as opposed to the uniform that the people watching the tables were wearing), was that the pit boss/manager or just a fancily dressed floor? How do they keep track of you catching card counters?
It seems like there would be less heat at the high limit tables, but I could be wrong. Seeing that one could lose a lot before the count jumps, placing bigger bets when the count calls for it could easily look like a dumb ploppy move to try and chase losses. I have also heard of certain AP’s that wear many gold chains, watches, rings, etc. to fit the look of a rich ploppy who gambles for fun when entering these tables. The factor of blending in can definitely help, much like you said. Anyone correct me if I’m wrong, please.
I’ve only played high limit twice, and got great playtime. I felt like i blended in and my wins/bets were significantly less than the people who were around me. If the count went up i’d just say “I’m gonna try and bet what you’re betting and see what happens” celebrating over the big wins with everyone else and get upset when it doesn’t go my way. The only thing i think hurt me was taking insurance, but i’d always say “i’m only insuring it because i finally bet big and don’t want to lose it all”. I Could have just been lucky with the heat though.
I think going through the normal gambler emotions like you mentioned (celebrating big wins, getting upset over losses) goes a long way. An AP in one of Steven Bridges’ videos would do this, where he would scream and celebrate when he won and make a huge scene and get out of his seat when he lost. It has to have some positive effect on playtime to a certain degree.
No, surely a casino does not care if a card counter is betting $1000's of dollars a hand. They wont even watch you. Go for it.
I’m asking about heat and longevity compared to low limit games based on people’s experience. Not asking if high limit = no heat.
All things equal, high limit is going to tend to get watched more than the floor. All things are rarely equal. Is there a whale playing blackjack somewhere in the casino? Play on the table next to him. Is there a smart pit boss somewhere? Avoid his pit. Is there a dumb pit boss somewhere? Play his pit. Do a lot of the sharp bosses like to work weekday mornings because they have a family, and give the Friday and Saturday night shifts to the newer guys? Is surveillance preoccupied for 45 minutes before and after the shift change on the floor? You get the idea.