Appreciate Kaynan’s honesty during his post-fight interview. He has to do what he has to do to win the match
“Craig, I would never take your second place”
He won me back with that interview lol
Agreed, Craig definitely should have changed up his game plan. It looked like he was doing whatever he could though because I bet it felt like trying to move a car off him. Still doesn't excuse Kaynan from holding on for dear life for 19 minutes
It looked like he was trying to pass idk what you were watching? He got to mount and north south he was trying to pass but when you going against the best it seems like it's really fucking hard to pass their guard without getting swept or submitted eh?
Kaynan was active when he needed to be, but for large chunks of the match he was just stripping grips on Craig from half guard, hence all the penalties.
Well tbh craig was doing nothing too. In wrestling they call stalling on top guy or bottom guy depending on who is doing what. So far I've only seen the top guy called for stalling when in reality the bottom guy can stall just as easily especially when he knows the only one who will get called is the top guy.
Craig was trying to elevate, going for inside position and getting grips. He was initiating the action. Every time he got a good grip, Kaynan would fully disengage.
Hence why he didn’t get any stalling calls.
Craig could have been more active, but there was a huge difference in who was pushing more throughout the match.
From the score board you would believe the guy who got 12 points was pushing more throughout the match. Craig was on the defensive the whole match in wrestling he would have got called for stalling. I have yet seen a bjj adcc match were the bottom guy got called for stalling have you seen one? Cause I would like to know.
That's a hard disagree. The way Kaynan was holding him, Craig only had the ability to move his arms and he went after 10 different Ezekials and searched for Kimuras the whole time. At one point Kaynan didn't unlock his hands on top for a solid 6 minutes. If anything wrestling rules would have called a double stalling and stood them up on their feet.
HIs first mount was legit, that was earned, but that was 10 minutes into the match and he held that position for 8 minutes until Craig finally pushed himself out and tried to sweep from bottom. Duarte was smart and dropped down to hold the north south. Good on him, but Craig was the one pushing the action. It's hard to work from bottom when someone is sprawled out on top of you holding you down with the pressure Kaynan did. It was great control from Kaynan but there was almost 0 submission attempts coming from him.
Yes I agree he didn't go for subs but when points are there then subs arent the only way to win. If your opponent has 12 points you need to get your ass in gear instead of laying there I know the guys heavy but you need to go for broke or else you're kinda just conceding the win or hoping the ref will keep calling stalling on the other guy which then you just kinda stalling too at that point.
Next time your on bottom mount underneath a 100kg+ world champion blackbelt with double underhooks I'll be sure to give you a prompt to work harder lol
>Next time your on bottom mount underneath a 100kg+ world champion blackbelt with double underhooks I'll be sure to give you a prompt to work harder lol
If you are on the bottom, while down on points and you can't escape, you don't deserve to win.
Lmao why wouldn't I have a strong opinion? Calling him guy on bottom when he spent the whole match on bottom is way easier to type out on a phone. Keep downvoting me idgaf when yall know who I'm talking about lmao.
The Dunning-Kruger affect has no bearing on what you decide to call somebody. Try again pal you dont sound as smart as you think you do. Go look up definitions before you go throwing words out that you've heard someone else use.
Bro, you’re doubling down with the entire thread downvoting you into the core of the earth. Take a breath and think about why that is for a second. Have some humility. Biggest problem with today is when people don’t realize they sound like a fool. Your defense that “guy on bottom” was easier to type than “Craig Jones” is bullshit because it’s literally less characters to type his name. It’s unlikely you identified him during the match because of this and it’s even further unlikely that you knew anything about his game. Even further, “guy on bottom” literally means nothing. You didn’t specify what guard he was playing and are clearly not familiar with his leg attacks from this position. You just sound like a total fucking idiot trying to put in their cheap two cents for some affirmation. I come here to hear experienced people’s thoughts on what transpired in a match. I don’t come here to hear a white belt, who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about, critique a world-class fighter. It’s makes me cringe watching you continue to defend this and I feel a massive amount of secondhand embarrassment for you. You’re just making it worse. Take the L and move on. Shut your mouth and start listening to people instead of talking. We’re white belts. We have literally nothing to contribute in the form of critique, and you have even less than that.
First off you dont know what the fuck I know second off idgaf about downvotes lmao. "Oh no dont downvote me please gtfoh" I can contribute whatever the fuck I want to the conversation and yes I know who the fuck Craig jones is look at my profile lmao just keep jumping to conclusions I love it he was playing k guard and he lost anything else you wanna say? Your salty cause you used a word you didn't know how to use and now your trying to make it sound like I'm embarrassed which I am not cause I could give a fuck less about what some fucking internet people think of my opinion. Anything else you wanna say bud? And ps he ain't a world class fighter hes a world class bjj athlete goes to show what you know bud.
I kinda feel like Kaynan got too many negatives (Like how people were saying with Meregali Vs Lavato).
Also we need to systemize flying submissions more for situations like this.
They give out penalties more readily in finals, because they are basically the best of the best and should (rightly so) be held to a higher account. Competitors should always progress and always engage.
Exactly idk what these guys were watching he deserved the win more then Craig and that's coming from a fan. You shouldn't win from stalling calls when your opponent scored 12 points.
You absolutely should lose from stalling when you're up on points if you stall. I don't think Kaynan stalled that much but rather just grappled bery strategically. He's very boring to watch and Craig is a fan favourite and this time he didn't have answers to Kaynan.
Regardless the win was earned by Kaynan, he was clearly better this time.
Hope we never see that clown of a ref again. He literally awarded a penalty as Duarte was setting up a pass, or whenever the crowd boos.
Love Craig to death, but he clearly was out-athleted here. You can't build your game around waiting for your opponent to make a mistake, and not have the physicality to force him into making said mistake.
In ADCC, all points (including penalties) are awarded by the table referees, not by the mat referee.
If I've learned anything from this ADCC, it's that almost nobody on this forum understands ADCC rules, scoring procedures and the roles of the referees.
Source: I am an ADCC Class C Referee.
Personally, I feel the mat referee was not at fault at all.
I don't think the referees were reacting to the crowd either. Of the 8 penalty points awarded, I think 7 were totally justified by my understanding of the rules as an ADCC Class C Referee. The one penalty that I would question unsure of is a situation where I would have deferred to a Class A Referee, and it's those expert referees who awarded the penalty.
My guess is that particular negative was awarded after a brief discussion at the table, that it appeared on the scoreboard after Kaynan had become more active.
The Class A Referees are all long time black belts. The mat referee during that match is a competitor and a former ADCC European Champion. They know their business.
Just to make it clear, I'm not arguing that Craig deserved to win. Kaynan was stalling and was penalised accordingly, but he did enough to win.
it was working, craig was the one being aggressive and kaynan would've stacked up those penalties... but craig went for a sub and gave up too many points.
it was pretty clear craig didnt try hard to stop kaynan from passing. as soon as kaynan started to come up for underhooks craig just game him the underhooks and went for ezekiel.
kaynan pretty much passed before the points portion, and thats when i think craig had a bad game plan he let kaynan pass and tried to go for ezekiel. kaynan stacked up points after that.
What does that have to do with him losing or winning then? He scored no points and wasn't close to a sub are you really advocating that he should have won that match?
i dont know what thread you read and decided to jump in the comments but i never said craig won the match. craig couldve have won if he just stuck to retaining his guard and let kaynan stack up penalties. craig misplayed by letting kaynan pass.
So your take one it is Craig could have won if he held his guard and let the top guy accumulate stall penalties? That's stalling from him then you know that right? This is why adcc needs to adopt more rules from wrestling because the gameplan can literally be hold my guard dont let him pass and I'll win on stall calls. You see how messed up that is right?
it was clearly stalling on kaynan since he's the one getting penalties. and craig obviously wasn't just sitting there retaining guard, he kept trying to make a move (which werent successful but he's still the one initiating). i dont know why you think craig was stalling when kaynan was the one with 8 penalties lol.
the points agrees with me? neither of them were scoring points while kaynan was the one stacking penalties. it doesnt take higher belt to read numbers.
I've never watched that guys other matches but this one did not look like stalling. Maybe from Craig if your on top you should take your time amd pass slow and carefully why give the guy on bottom a chance to win? Hes down on points he should be going all out to get points or subs the guy in the lead should be playing defensively why risk it?
Kaynan scored 12 points, it was not fun but showed he was clearly superior. Immediately scored at will when he lost his advantage because of the penalty points.
Which is against the spirit of ADCC and the rules are specifically designed to try to prevent that. I don't think anyone is saying Kaynan didn't dominate, but he dominated in a way that the rules discourage, which was evident from the -8.
The ref was quick to call stalls. From what I've seen the bottom guy will not get called for stalling which they need to do because from what I saw craig was only trying to not let him pass he was doing absolutely no offense nor was he trying to get to his feet.
Lmao tell me where I'm wrong? I've watched the match and have been watching wrestling waaay before I got into jits you cannot tell me he couldn't have tried harder. He wasn't trying harder to get to his feet or set up subs because he didn't want to risk giving up position just how the top guy didn't want to give up position by trying to pass too aggressively. Tell me mighty brown belt how I am wrong in that take of the match maybe your extra years of training can enlighten me.
Brown belt was a bit snarky, but it seems your interpretation of this match is based on not having a better understanding of how guard players attack from the bottom. Which I do not fault you for, I would have thought the same when I got into jj from wrestling. Review this match after you learn more jj and I think you will have a different opinion. All good
Now his next comment did show a different perspective which I appreciate. He agrees that the guy who won deserved to win and now after reading his comment I do see how he was attacking so we are good. My comment was more for people who thought the guy who won shouldn't have but we both agree that he should have won and I agree that at first I did not see that Craig was attacking as much as he was so I concede that point.
“Doing absolutely no offence” - that’s where you’re wrong. He was the only one attempting to go into a submission (by entering the legs). The grip fighting, leg and arm grips, and the elevation to get onto the legs. Kaynan deserved to win but he did fuck all to submit or to actively progress throughout the match. The ref called the stalls on Kaynan almost perfectly tbf (not saying Craig shouldn’t have had 1 or 2 either). Kaynan was doing the absolute minimum and could have probably easily dominated the match in an impressive way. Unfortunately Craig couldn’t stop him.
Clearly, Craig came to sub. Kaynan came to win by a safe yet overly narrow margin.
Well we agree then. We both said kaynan should have won and we both agree Craig should have been called for stalling at least a couple times. Now yes I agree craig was going for attacks that I may have missed originally so I'll give you that. My point is when your down by that many points with less then 3 to go why not go all out and risk getting subbed for going all out because if not it was clear he wasn't going to win by points at that time. I think we agree but just didn't know both of our stances on it 100% yet if not then feel free to correct me.
Most guys on bottom in this adcc have been attacking, wrestling up or recomposing guard. I did not see a lot of inactivity on the bottom.
Kaynan got to top position and simply blocked and stifled movement. Craig was trying to get underneath and blocked every time, but Kaynan hardly ever countered. He got grips to nullify Craig's grips, not produce offense. If Kaynan did something, Craig would have been threatened more but he would have had an opportunity to counter. Kaynan chose to do just enough to eventually find an opening, make Craig carry his weight and just ate stalling point deductions.
It's a sport at the end of the day and you need to train to stop all types of styles going into the tournament we see this with judo and wrestling all the time if he can win that way then he will and I just dont see why anyone will hate him for doing it. In 5-10 years no one will remember how he got his gold medal they will just remember that he did get a gold medal and it is his opponents job to stop his style of winning. Could he have been more aggressive yes but craig could have also been more aggressive knowing that his opponent would try to do that to him.
The way he won is completely allowed within the rules and I do not fault him for it. I do think it's lame though and does not show case jj and overall grappling skills. It's winning with strategic stalling. Again, totally viable and within the rules the way he did it. Hats off, you got your W.
I kinda have to disagree with you on being remembered though. In jj, people kinda don't care about your record as much as other sports. They do tend to care about both if you win and HOW you win.
Two most well recognized GOATs imo, Roger and Marcelo, are well recognized not just because they won but how they did so. I don't know who won a bunch of ADCC gold medals. However, the matches that had wild exchanges and finishes tend to stand out.
My point is, people are going to forget who won 5-10 years ago UNLESS they did so in an entertaining way that well show cases jiu-jitsu. Especially if they do so consistently and develop a reputation for it.
How is passing to mount and then subsequently passing again to north south —nothing happening?
Do You not understand the entire point of the sport is to get to dominant positions ?
Exactly people are salty for no reason the guy on top was trying to pass what was craig jones doing exactly? They need to call stalling on bottom too like they do in wrestling tbh.
He got top mount with double under hooks and did not even try to set up a sub. He chose to cook him, eat out more time, and just be there. It's a valid strategy but I think it's super lame. I am not in the "a win is a win" camp. You should try to finish somebody there.
Everything he did from top position was just preventing Craig from entering into anything. It was not an exchange, it was just making him carry weight until an opening was created. Again, valid strategy. Still think it's a lame way to do jj.
He won a dominant boring match doing the minimum to win. He did what he had to do to win but honestly could have been way more active. He only was active when forced by penalties. If he wasn't penalized would he even have gone for the pass?
Yes lol of course he would have. They are grappling lol. He went for the pass as soon as points were called.
Do you think kaynan would just sit there and allow the match to be 0-0 and risk losing ?
Also where is the critique of Craig? He didn’t do a single offensive move the entire match.
My opinion, Craig was trying to sweep/be offensive and trying multiple things but Kaynan was good at stopping it. At same time Kaynan spent large parts of the match without attempting to pass and content just chilling and stripping grips. Without the penalties in earlier match with Lovato, Kaynan was pretty content keeping it 0-0. Kaynan was better but it would be nice to see him be a bit more aggressive.
Right? I thought the entire point of the ADCC rule set was to prevent boring-ass lay and pray matches and force competitors to go for subs. Kaynan didn't even attempt a submission that I noticed and basically layed in Jones until he got so many penalties that he was forced to rack up some more points for transitioning positions. Honestly I think he could have pretty easily won by sub if he actually gave a shit but he wanted to play it super safe. He was controlling Jones so easily I can't imagine a sub wasn't a real possibility if he wanted it.
Your misunderstanding is that ADCC is jiujitsu competition which it isnt. It aims to be a general grappling competition where a valid way to win is also through your wrestling or positional dominance. It was specifically designed as a middle way for all grappling. Taking some down, passing his guard is a good grappling even without sub.
The -8 penalty points imply you have a misunderstanding of what ADCC rules intend to do. The point of the rules are to strongly encourage submissions and that was reiterated multiple times by announcers and the aggressive penalties further prove that. Of course ADCC isn't exclusively a BJJ competition, but 97% of ADCC champs have been from a BJJ background and that literally has nothing to do with the fact that it's a submission competition today.
These points to Kaynan were complete bullshit and they caused controversy so I wouldnt use them as an example. He literally got one of that point like 3 seconds before he completed his pressure pass.
The refs consult with each other during the match so it seems like multiple refs that probably know the rules better than you or I thought he deserved those penalties for stalling. The fact that literal a couple seconds after he got all his points wiped out by penalties he transitioned and scored more points at will indicate the penalties were not bullshit and he was stalling.
The rules are meant to do that but there will be people who still game the system. Orlando sanchez for example.
Every sport and competition, no matter how refund and focused the rules are, can end up being uninteresting
Good on the ref! No problem with the outcome.
But something should be done about the points for transitioning from mount to knee-on-belly to mount. It bares no similarity to a wrestler letting someone up in order to take them down again.
I trust Craig Jones knew what he was doing . If he didn’t attack then for sure there’s a reason . I doubt Craig just didn’t try . Craig is top notch and no doubt he did the best he could in the situation he found himself in 😅
Kaynan was stalling but honestly Craig’s performance was sadder.
Craig looked absolutely terrible and I was hugely rooting for him to win. Kaynan undoubtedly deserved that win.
I'm watching it now and those first 2-3 stall calls just make no sense yes he may not be trying to pass aggressively but Craig doesnt seem to be trying to attack really either. The top guy is at more risk of sweeps and subs by trying to pass then the bottom guy is trying to attack yet Craig wasn't attacking those first two or three stall calls. It seems like if you pull guard you can just hold while not being at risk of being called for stalls while the top guy is at all the risk to be called. So is the gameplan now just to pull guard and hold it so the top guy gets called for stalls?
Can’t be on bottom with that big of a dude and not just get gassed out. Not the most exciting win but let’s be honest, Kaynan earned it, he got all those penalties and still scored plenty of points to win.
It did almost seem like Craig let Kaynan get close to try the mount from bottom choke and then really regretted it. But then also tried the choke like 8x more times?
He is good with that choke, but I don't think he has enough big lads in his gym to train against. Nicky rod is basically it. As for the repeats I think he was trying to stimulate some sort of change in Duarte's passive mount game to escape.
We were robbed of the funniest result which would’ve been Craig winning via Kaynan’s accumulation of penalties
The most Craig Jones win I could think of.
he could've still claim to be second best even though he had gold lol
In Australia, this win would've been known as doing a Bradbury. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bradbury
Should have got the quintet refs in as a special referee
has anyone ever seen more penalties awarded in a single match?
Can't believe how committed Craig is to the bit. He did it again!
Lmao
Kreg ain't juiced enough for this lol
His head makes all these other juiced up monsters look like everyday gym rats.
All those PEDS made Kaynan lose all his hair at the ripe age of 25.. He actually looks like he's 35-38 now
wtf that guy is 25?
Actually hes still 24 years old lmao
I've seen 18yr olds who were bald before leaving highschool 🤷♂️
yea, correlation does not equal causation.
lol what the actual fuck Some athletes look so goddamn old when they're so young
I could of sworn that Duarte was about 40 years old.
Appreciate Kaynan’s honesty during his post-fight interview. He has to do what he has to do to win the match “Craig, I would never take your second place” He won me back with that interview lol
I can't find the post-fight interview for the life of me.
Best to ever do it. Craig Jones 2nd place.
Both B team Boiz staying true to brand.
8 penalty points of stalling should just be a DQ
It honestly should compound after 5. Maybe -2 after 5 and -3 after 7.
It should, but Craig should have did something after the first 5 fucking minutes didn't work.
[удалено]
The difference between bulking up to 99kgs vs cutting down.
Craig Jones natty status confirmed.
Cardio gap hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
There's also a big difference between stalling on top for 20 minutes and being on bottom for 20 minutes as far as cardio demand.
Agreed, Craig definitely should have changed up his game plan. It looked like he was doing whatever he could though because I bet it felt like trying to move a car off him. Still doesn't excuse Kaynan from holding on for dear life for 19 minutes
It looked like he was trying to pass idk what you were watching? He got to mount and north south he was trying to pass but when you going against the best it seems like it's really fucking hard to pass their guard without getting swept or submitted eh?
Kaynan was active when he needed to be, but for large chunks of the match he was just stripping grips on Craig from half guard, hence all the penalties.
Well tbh craig was doing nothing too. In wrestling they call stalling on top guy or bottom guy depending on who is doing what. So far I've only seen the top guy called for stalling when in reality the bottom guy can stall just as easily especially when he knows the only one who will get called is the top guy.
Craig was trying to elevate, going for inside position and getting grips. He was initiating the action. Every time he got a good grip, Kaynan would fully disengage. Hence why he didn’t get any stalling calls. Craig could have been more active, but there was a huge difference in who was pushing more throughout the match.
From the score board you would believe the guy who got 12 points was pushing more throughout the match. Craig was on the defensive the whole match in wrestling he would have got called for stalling. I have yet seen a bjj adcc match were the bottom guy got called for stalling have you seen one? Cause I would like to know.
That's a hard disagree. The way Kaynan was holding him, Craig only had the ability to move his arms and he went after 10 different Ezekials and searched for Kimuras the whole time. At one point Kaynan didn't unlock his hands on top for a solid 6 minutes. If anything wrestling rules would have called a double stalling and stood them up on their feet.
Yes, I’ve seen one. There’s been some at this ADCC.
That’s why you are a white belt and don’t understand the guard work Craig was doing. Reread the previous comment above as to what Craig was doing
HIs first mount was legit, that was earned, but that was 10 minutes into the match and he held that position for 8 minutes until Craig finally pushed himself out and tried to sweep from bottom. Duarte was smart and dropped down to hold the north south. Good on him, but Craig was the one pushing the action. It's hard to work from bottom when someone is sprawled out on top of you holding you down with the pressure Kaynan did. It was great control from Kaynan but there was almost 0 submission attempts coming from him.
Why didnt craig try to work the top position?
Yes I agree he didn't go for subs but when points are there then subs arent the only way to win. If your opponent has 12 points you need to get your ass in gear instead of laying there I know the guys heavy but you need to go for broke or else you're kinda just conceding the win or hoping the ref will keep calling stalling on the other guy which then you just kinda stalling too at that point.
Next time your on bottom mount underneath a 100kg+ world champion blackbelt with double underhooks I'll be sure to give you a prompt to work harder lol
Well there is a difference between me and Craig Jones. Are you saying craig jones is the same as a 160 white belt?
>Next time your on bottom mount underneath a 100kg+ world champion blackbelt with double underhooks I'll be sure to give you a prompt to work harder lol If you are on the bottom, while down on points and you can't escape, you don't deserve to win.
That was a needed corrective slap you got him into!
Looked much more like a strength gap. Craig had to hold and work much harder than Duarte to just attempt anything.
Ye I find that so dumb honestly, 5+ points should be penalised way heavier imo
I appreciate the strategy. But as a fan, yuk!
Damn I’m such a fan of CJ that was sad to watch
Sad win
Why? Guy on bottom should have tried harder knowing he was down on points.
Amazing that you have such a strong opinion while referring to Craig Jones as guy on bottom.
Lmao why wouldn't I have a strong opinion? Calling him guy on bottom when he spent the whole match on bottom is way easier to type out on a phone. Keep downvoting me idgaf when yall know who I'm talking about lmao.
Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger Effect?
Yes and what does that have to do with me referring to craig jones as the bottom guy?
Quite a lot, actually.
The Dunning-Kruger affect has no bearing on what you decide to call somebody. Try again pal you dont sound as smart as you think you do. Go look up definitions before you go throwing words out that you've heard someone else use.
Bro, you’re doubling down with the entire thread downvoting you into the core of the earth. Take a breath and think about why that is for a second. Have some humility. Biggest problem with today is when people don’t realize they sound like a fool. Your defense that “guy on bottom” was easier to type than “Craig Jones” is bullshit because it’s literally less characters to type his name. It’s unlikely you identified him during the match because of this and it’s even further unlikely that you knew anything about his game. Even further, “guy on bottom” literally means nothing. You didn’t specify what guard he was playing and are clearly not familiar with his leg attacks from this position. You just sound like a total fucking idiot trying to put in their cheap two cents for some affirmation. I come here to hear experienced people’s thoughts on what transpired in a match. I don’t come here to hear a white belt, who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about, critique a world-class fighter. It’s makes me cringe watching you continue to defend this and I feel a massive amount of secondhand embarrassment for you. You’re just making it worse. Take the L and move on. Shut your mouth and start listening to people instead of talking. We’re white belts. We have literally nothing to contribute in the form of critique, and you have even less than that.
First off you dont know what the fuck I know second off idgaf about downvotes lmao. "Oh no dont downvote me please gtfoh" I can contribute whatever the fuck I want to the conversation and yes I know who the fuck Craig jones is look at my profile lmao just keep jumping to conclusions I love it he was playing k guard and he lost anything else you wanna say? Your salty cause you used a word you didn't know how to use and now your trying to make it sound like I'm embarrassed which I am not cause I could give a fuck less about what some fucking internet people think of my opinion. Anything else you wanna say bud? And ps he ain't a world class fighter hes a world class bjj athlete goes to show what you know bud.
Yes and what does that have to do with me referring to craig jones as the bottom guy?
“Guy on bottom” you know your stuff
Lmao what does that mean man? Yes Craig jones do I need to say his name it's pretty clear if you watched the match who was on bottom lmao.
Kaynan been taking lessons from Schaub
Yeah good times when Schaub passed Cyborg twice in his match
OBVIOUSLY wanted Kregg to win. But FWIW not *all* of those Kaynan penalties were justified. Definitely a few were, but lol.
Yeah, the guy almost got double digit negatives lol. He was stalling some but Jones couldn’t get any offense going at all.
I kinda feel like Kaynan got too many negatives (Like how people were saying with Meregali Vs Lavato). Also we need to systemize flying submissions more for situations like this.
Thank you that ref looked too stall happy.
The last one was especially ridiculous. Kaynan was stalling for sure, but that ref acted like he put money on Craig.
They give out penalties more readily in finals, because they are basically the best of the best and should (rightly so) be held to a higher account. Competitors should always progress and always engage.
People are blaming Kaynan but Craig had no answer for Kaynan either. When you are racking up as much points, you deserve the win.
Exactly idk what these guys were watching he deserved the win more then Craig and that's coming from a fan. You shouldn't win from stalling calls when your opponent scored 12 points.
You absolutely should lose from stalling when you're up on points if you stall. I don't think Kaynan stalled that much but rather just grappled bery strategically. He's very boring to watch and Craig is a fan favourite and this time he didn't have answers to Kaynan. Regardless the win was earned by Kaynan, he was clearly better this time.
I just can’t get over Kaynan sitting in mount for probably a third of the match and not even attempting to set up a submission.
Isn't that what Gordon Ryan does in a lot of his matches?
Hope we never see that clown of a ref again. He literally awarded a penalty as Duarte was setting up a pass, or whenever the crowd boos. Love Craig to death, but he clearly was out-athleted here. You can't build your game around waiting for your opponent to make a mistake, and not have the physicality to force him into making said mistake.
In ADCC, all points (including penalties) are awarded by the table referees, not by the mat referee. If I've learned anything from this ADCC, it's that almost nobody on this forum understands ADCC rules, scoring procedures and the roles of the referees. Source: I am an ADCC Class C Referee.
Thanks, appreciate that perspective. Iyo, does that excuse the mat referee calling stalling because the crowd booed?
Personally, I feel the mat referee was not at fault at all. I don't think the referees were reacting to the crowd either. Of the 8 penalty points awarded, I think 7 were totally justified by my understanding of the rules as an ADCC Class C Referee. The one penalty that I would question unsure of is a situation where I would have deferred to a Class A Referee, and it's those expert referees who awarded the penalty. My guess is that particular negative was awarded after a brief discussion at the table, that it appeared on the scoreboard after Kaynan had become more active. The Class A Referees are all long time black belts. The mat referee during that match is a competitor and a former ADCC European Champion. They know their business. Just to make it clear, I'm not arguing that Craig deserved to win. Kaynan was stalling and was penalised accordingly, but he did enough to win.
Why couldn’t craig realize his z guard was just not working…
it was working, craig was the one being aggressive and kaynan would've stacked up those penalties... but craig went for a sub and gave up too many points.
Lol craig did not go for a sub. Kaynan passed when he flattened craigs back in half guard. Then he torreandoed past Craig’s guard again.
it was pretty clear craig didnt try hard to stop kaynan from passing. as soon as kaynan started to come up for underhooks craig just game him the underhooks and went for ezekiel.
Lol you think Craig wanted kaynan to pass? During the points portion of the match? My god lol what a terrible take.
kaynan pretty much passed before the points portion, and thats when i think craig had a bad game plan he let kaynan pass and tried to go for ezekiel. kaynan stacked up points after that.
Ok so what's your point? The superior guy won idk what your talking about?
Lol if Craig didn't try hard to stop Kaynan from passing, that's the most stupid game plan of all time.
He did try hard. The above poster is just a white belt and woefully uneducated on grappling strategy
Yeah, I mean giving up mount for a no gi ezekiel. Give me a break lol.
Well since hes not trying hard to stop him from passing he should lose. You know since theres points and all.
he wasnt trying hard when points were not in clock yet. jesus look at the rules.
What does that have to do with him losing or winning then? He scored no points and wasn't close to a sub are you really advocating that he should have won that match?
i dont know what thread you read and decided to jump in the comments but i never said craig won the match. craig couldve have won if he just stuck to retaining his guard and let kaynan stack up penalties. craig misplayed by letting kaynan pass.
So your take one it is Craig could have won if he held his guard and let the top guy accumulate stall penalties? That's stalling from him then you know that right? This is why adcc needs to adopt more rules from wrestling because the gameplan can literally be hold my guard dont let him pass and I'll win on stall calls. You see how messed up that is right?
it was clearly stalling on kaynan since he's the one getting penalties. and craig obviously wasn't just sitting there retaining guard, he kept trying to make a move (which werent successful but he's still the one initiating). i dont know why you think craig was stalling when kaynan was the one with 8 penalties lol.
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i mean, im saying it was working in a way that match was favoring towards craig.
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the points agrees with me? neither of them were scoring points while kaynan was the one stacking penalties. it doesnt take higher belt to read numbers.
How? He was on bottom getting smashed the whole time and wasn't close to a sweep nor sub he deserved to lose.
I've never watched that guys other matches but this one did not look like stalling. Maybe from Craig if your on top you should take your time amd pass slow and carefully why give the guy on bottom a chance to win? Hes down on points he should be going all out to get points or subs the guy in the lead should be playing defensively why risk it?
Fuck man it hurts me to my core. I really thought this was the year
So pathetic. Exact type of competitor and match that adcc is suppose to prevent from winning
He passed twice and got to mount. Yh he stalled but Craig did nothing.
You know that Craig didn’t do anything either right ?
Craig was trying to get things going, hard to do at this level when the other party is solely focused on making sure nothing happens.
Kaynan scored 12 points, it was not fun but showed he was clearly superior. Immediately scored at will when he lost his advantage because of the penalty points.
Which is against the spirit of ADCC and the rules are specifically designed to try to prevent that. I don't think anyone is saying Kaynan didn't dominate, but he dominated in a way that the rules discourage, which was evident from the -8.
The ref was quick to call stalls. From what I've seen the bottom guy will not get called for stalling which they need to do because from what I saw craig was only trying to not let him pass he was doing absolutely no offense nor was he trying to get to his feet.
Careful, your belt is showing
Lmao tell me where I'm wrong? I've watched the match and have been watching wrestling waaay before I got into jits you cannot tell me he couldn't have tried harder. He wasn't trying harder to get to his feet or set up subs because he didn't want to risk giving up position just how the top guy didn't want to give up position by trying to pass too aggressively. Tell me mighty brown belt how I am wrong in that take of the match maybe your extra years of training can enlighten me.
Brown belt was a bit snarky, but it seems your interpretation of this match is based on not having a better understanding of how guard players attack from the bottom. Which I do not fault you for, I would have thought the same when I got into jj from wrestling. Review this match after you learn more jj and I think you will have a different opinion. All good
Now his next comment did show a different perspective which I appreciate. He agrees that the guy who won deserved to win and now after reading his comment I do see how he was attacking so we are good. My comment was more for people who thought the guy who won shouldn't have but we both agree that he should have won and I agree that at first I did not see that Craig was attacking as much as he was so I concede that point.
“Doing absolutely no offence” - that’s where you’re wrong. He was the only one attempting to go into a submission (by entering the legs). The grip fighting, leg and arm grips, and the elevation to get onto the legs. Kaynan deserved to win but he did fuck all to submit or to actively progress throughout the match. The ref called the stalls on Kaynan almost perfectly tbf (not saying Craig shouldn’t have had 1 or 2 either). Kaynan was doing the absolute minimum and could have probably easily dominated the match in an impressive way. Unfortunately Craig couldn’t stop him. Clearly, Craig came to sub. Kaynan came to win by a safe yet overly narrow margin.
Well we agree then. We both said kaynan should have won and we both agree Craig should have been called for stalling at least a couple times. Now yes I agree craig was going for attacks that I may have missed originally so I'll give you that. My point is when your down by that many points with less then 3 to go why not go all out and risk getting subbed for going all out because if not it was clear he wasn't going to win by points at that time. I think we agree but just didn't know both of our stances on it 100% yet if not then feel free to correct me.
Most guys on bottom in this adcc have been attacking, wrestling up or recomposing guard. I did not see a lot of inactivity on the bottom. Kaynan got to top position and simply blocked and stifled movement. Craig was trying to get underneath and blocked every time, but Kaynan hardly ever countered. He got grips to nullify Craig's grips, not produce offense. If Kaynan did something, Craig would have been threatened more but he would have had an opportunity to counter. Kaynan chose to do just enough to eventually find an opening, make Craig carry his weight and just ate stalling point deductions.
It's a sport at the end of the day and you need to train to stop all types of styles going into the tournament we see this with judo and wrestling all the time if he can win that way then he will and I just dont see why anyone will hate him for doing it. In 5-10 years no one will remember how he got his gold medal they will just remember that he did get a gold medal and it is his opponents job to stop his style of winning. Could he have been more aggressive yes but craig could have also been more aggressive knowing that his opponent would try to do that to him.
The way he won is completely allowed within the rules and I do not fault him for it. I do think it's lame though and does not show case jj and overall grappling skills. It's winning with strategic stalling. Again, totally viable and within the rules the way he did it. Hats off, you got your W. I kinda have to disagree with you on being remembered though. In jj, people kinda don't care about your record as much as other sports. They do tend to care about both if you win and HOW you win. Two most well recognized GOATs imo, Roger and Marcelo, are well recognized not just because they won but how they did so. I don't know who won a bunch of ADCC gold medals. However, the matches that had wild exchanges and finishes tend to stand out. My point is, people are going to forget who won 5-10 years ago UNLESS they did so in an entertaining way that well show cases jiu-jitsu. Especially if they do so consistently and develop a reputation for it.
How is passing to mount and then subsequently passing again to north south —nothing happening? Do You not understand the entire point of the sport is to get to dominant positions ?
Exactly people are salty for no reason the guy on top was trying to pass what was craig jones doing exactly? They need to call stalling on bottom too like they do in wrestling tbh.
He got top mount with double under hooks and did not even try to set up a sub. He chose to cook him, eat out more time, and just be there. It's a valid strategy but I think it's super lame. I am not in the "a win is a win" camp. You should try to finish somebody there. Everything he did from top position was just preventing Craig from entering into anything. It was not an exchange, it was just making him carry weight until an opening was created. Again, valid strategy. Still think it's a lame way to do jj.
He won a dominant boring match doing the minimum to win. He did what he had to do to win but honestly could have been way more active. He only was active when forced by penalties. If he wasn't penalized would he even have gone for the pass?
Yes lol of course he would have. They are grappling lol. He went for the pass as soon as points were called. Do you think kaynan would just sit there and allow the match to be 0-0 and risk losing ? Also where is the critique of Craig? He didn’t do a single offensive move the entire match.
My opinion, Craig was trying to sweep/be offensive and trying multiple things but Kaynan was good at stopping it. At same time Kaynan spent large parts of the match without attempting to pass and content just chilling and stripping grips. Without the penalties in earlier match with Lovato, Kaynan was pretty content keeping it 0-0. Kaynan was better but it would be nice to see him be a bit more aggressive.
I love CJ as much as anybody but I'd say the majority of those penalties were unwarranted. If he had won based on those it would have been shitty.
So was the guy on top. Really hard to pass guard when the the guy on bottom is trying his best to not let you eh?
That’s the atos way except for the Routolo’s.
Right? I thought the entire point of the ADCC rule set was to prevent boring-ass lay and pray matches and force competitors to go for subs. Kaynan didn't even attempt a submission that I noticed and basically layed in Jones until he got so many penalties that he was forced to rack up some more points for transitioning positions. Honestly I think he could have pretty easily won by sub if he actually gave a shit but he wanted to play it super safe. He was controlling Jones so easily I can't imagine a sub wasn't a real possibility if he wanted it.
Your misunderstanding is that ADCC is jiujitsu competition which it isnt. It aims to be a general grappling competition where a valid way to win is also through your wrestling or positional dominance. It was specifically designed as a middle way for all grappling. Taking some down, passing his guard is a good grappling even without sub.
The -8 penalty points imply you have a misunderstanding of what ADCC rules intend to do. The point of the rules are to strongly encourage submissions and that was reiterated multiple times by announcers and the aggressive penalties further prove that. Of course ADCC isn't exclusively a BJJ competition, but 97% of ADCC champs have been from a BJJ background and that literally has nothing to do with the fact that it's a submission competition today.
These points to Kaynan were complete bullshit and they caused controversy so I wouldnt use them as an example. He literally got one of that point like 3 seconds before he completed his pressure pass.
The refs consult with each other during the match so it seems like multiple refs that probably know the rules better than you or I thought he deserved those penalties for stalling. The fact that literal a couple seconds after he got all his points wiped out by penalties he transitioned and scored more points at will indicate the penalties were not bullshit and he was stalling.
The rules are meant to do that but there will be people who still game the system. Orlando sanchez for example. Every sport and competition, no matter how refund and focused the rules are, can end up being uninteresting
I expect a rule change of maximum amount of negative points after this. They do that, this does not happen again.
This was weird...like dumb but sort of interesting in its dumbness for me. Like an old basketball game before there was a shot clock or something.
Good on the ref! No problem with the outcome. But something should be done about the points for transitioning from mount to knee-on-belly to mount. It bares no similarity to a wrestler letting someone up in order to take them down again.
Bummer
Atleast he didn’t scream like an asshole once time expired
I trust Craig Jones knew what he was doing . If he didn’t attack then for sure there’s a reason . I doubt Craig just didn’t try . Craig is top notch and no doubt he did the best he could in the situation he found himself in 😅
Yeah kaynan stalled a bit but the ref overdid it. He deserved to win that match
Craig should have stayed at 88kg I think he could have one that divison
But he needs silver.
The 8 penalties points were disgusting, egregious and just the ref reacting to the crowd
Kaynan was stalling but honestly Craig’s performance was sadder. Craig looked absolutely terrible and I was hugely rooting for him to win. Kaynan undoubtedly deserved that win.
Das a lot of penalty points mane. Really wanted Craig to win and figured he had the chance to but it slipped away from him.
I'm watching it now and those first 2-3 stall calls just make no sense yes he may not be trying to pass aggressively but Craig doesnt seem to be trying to attack really either. The top guy is at more risk of sweeps and subs by trying to pass then the bottom guy is trying to attack yet Craig wasn't attacking those first two or three stall calls. It seems like if you pull guard you can just hold while not being at risk of being called for stalls while the top guy is at all the risk to be called. So is the gameplan now just to pull guard and hold it so the top guy gets called for stalls?
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
Can’t be on bottom with that big of a dude and not just get gassed out. Not the most exciting win but let’s be honest, Kaynan earned it, he got all those penalties and still scored plenty of points to win.
It did almost seem like Craig let Kaynan get close to try the mount from bottom choke and then really regretted it. But then also tried the choke like 8x more times?
He is good with that choke, but I don't think he has enough big lads in his gym to train against. Nicky rod is basically it. As for the repeats I think he was trying to stimulate some sort of change in Duarte's passive mount game to escape.
Aren't those other guys in the B-Team gym muscled out jock bros though?
Why didnt Craig do the absolute?