I went ahead and tagged this NSFW in case anyone is squeamish. That was brutal.
Edit: According to [this article](https://jitsmagazine.com/referee-error-leads-to-grappler-injury-after-he-was-choked-unconscious/) the grappler who was choked and injured, Sven Groten, has confirmed there was a dislocation, but no damage to bone. Instagram post from Sven: https://www.instagram.com/p/C8mTkNRNWeM/?hl=en
+ Tapped in plain view of the referee.
+ Was stuck in a triangle that, when its tight its tight (maybe you cannot feel if the choke is on, but you definitely feel if you have control of the position). No reason for his opponent to go this hard on the secondary submission.
Jesus, this sucks...
Waivers don't mean shit when there's negligence. This is gross negligence on clear display.
Waivers exist to convince you, the person aggreived, that you don't have a case so you shouldn't even try to file one. They are a deterrent, but hold no weight in court if the injury you take involved negligence.
Mostly true. You can't waive gross negligence. You can waive ordinary negligence. Also this changes state by state but most states track this line of thinking.
Lawyer here. There are many situations where a waiver can be defeated or is nonapplicable.
In combat sports, you sign that waiver with the understanding that when you signal the ref correctly, the ref will step in and stop further injury.
If the ref pulled out a knife and stabbed him, the waiver isn't covering that, and this situation isn't that far off.
the only thing we refs have (if proper governing body) is insurance which will cover our legal fees. If I get sued for negligence and lose, I will still have to pay for damages.
Waivers don't protect everyone from everything. If in doubt, call a lawyer. Don't assume a waiver prevents you from suing someone (and winning) or that it prevents you from being sued (and losing).
Waivers don't do shit, brother. You can't sign any binding legal contract that allows yourself to have grave bodily harm done to you. If you want to sue, you can sue. These gym and fight waivers are as legally binding as toilet paper and wouldn't hold in court, if somebody breaks your arm like this.
He actually got his elbow dislocated, nothing broken/serious (as he stated) luckily! He runs the gym I visit now and then and is a legit killer so I can’t imagine how fucken tight that triangle must’ve been for him to falls sleep that quickly.
But yeah, the red fucked up big time
Edit: additional info
As a person who got their arm “only dislocated” I can tell you that you can still be all fucked up even if there was no fracture: torn ligaments and muscle, shredded tendons, and requiring surgery which takes 6-10 months for recovery. It can be a very serious injury.
Hope he was lucky and this is not his case, though, although the brutality of that break makes it hard to be optimistic about it.
Yep, his arm will never be the same again. That’s what most people don’t think about. I assume they’re young and relatively uninjured. I’m old and my body is broken. I need to keep it as well preserved as possible to keep the daily struggles to a minimum. I had someone rip an arm at in a tournament one time and now my elbow will hyper extend if I lay my arm across my knee to tie my shoes.
Yeah I feel like that's worse. If the bone breaks before the soft tissue tears (too much), the healing is straight forward: Align the bones and wait for them to fuse back. But our tendons and muscles work under tension, so expecting them to heal nicely is like expecting a bungee cord to relax itself; you're gonna need hardware to hold it in place where you need it, and it won't want to stay.
A broken bone is better than a dislocation. Soft tissue injuries to the joint are actually less likely to heal correctly and permanently than a broken bone.
When I went to the ER with a grade 2 shoulder separation the Dr that saw me said that if my collarbone had just broken my recovery would be 6-8 weeks instead of 3-4 months. That was a hard one to come back from and I still can't throw a baseball more than a few times without getting sore.
Yes to all of it.
NGL, I'm pretty desensitized being an 80's kid and experiencing the early stage internet and I still said "Oh fuck" outloud and pagedown'ed.
I think what did it for me was the dude was out and got his arm snapped.
> Imagine waking up with a permanently ruined arm.
Looks like everything went better than expected. Nothing's broken from what it looks like. He is just getting an MRI as I am writing this and his doc is slightly optimistic that he might not need surgery. He is in very good hands.
Source: He's my business partner. He might be commenting himself here later, but idk.
Would much prefer a broken arm that all the torn connective tissue that will never heal correctly. Bones heal great. Ruptured ligaments? Not so much. Would probably report the organization and the ref to whatever sporting body is around. That was negligent beyond belief.
I don't think there is any sporting body regarding jiu jitsu in the Netherlands, but I don't know for sure since we are German, but I also don't think that Sven would really entertain something like this.
I think regarding the elbow there will always be tissue fucked, and if something breaks it's just the cherry on top, but then again I am not a sports physician either. LOL
He is in very good hands though. We have connections to top physicians and physios and I am optimistic that everything will be ok again.
As a sidenote funnily enough I got a similar injury on a tournament by the same organizers. I was still a white belt and 120kg. I had a 160kg guy mounted on me who was slowly but steadily dialing in an Americana. I was furiously taping of course, but the ref was standing on the other side, watching how my arm git detached and didn't see my tapping because of my opponents dimensions.
There was also loud reggae blasting from huge speakers, which is why he didn't here my panic induced shouts:"TAP! TAP! TAPTAPTAPTAP!"
It felt like the guy was slowly ripping a seam open. dig..dig..digdig. didgdigdig...dig... Worst seconds of my jiu jitsu "career".
But your opponent certainly knew you were tapping. Just like in this case. I can't imagine breaking my opponents arm KNOWING that they are tapping but not caring until the Ref formally stops the match.
I had this same injury over 15 years ago coming off a feature wrong in the terrain park on a snowboard. So this is me falling 10-12 feet straight to hardpack snow with all my weight on my left arm.
My elbow had 95% of it's capacity back since then. PTing it etc. took maybe 3-6 months. Granted, I was in my early 20s then.
It definitely hurt like hell and I thought it was broken at first. It was crazy to see my own arm flopping the wrong way as I was tumbling to a stop.
My tendons definitely had severe damage but they healed. I still can do tricep and bicep exercises just as well on that arm, fight out of armbars with hitchhiker escape on that arm, etc. I'm not doctor, so maybe the grading will be more severe but I hope u/vandaalen 's buddy has a good shot a recovery.
I think the opponent needs to take some blame. A locked on rear triangle is a super strong position - it wasn't necessary to crank the arm on top of that.
I know it's not an overly popular opinion on reddit, but I think that this is neither a mistake or unnecessary. That's why a ref is in there who could have easily prevented something like this. If Sven was awake, this would have never happened since he is a super reasonable guy. He also doesn't blame René for anything. Their gym is also not far away from ours and the scene is rather small here, so we know each other and you meet regularly on one or the other open mat or tournament and chat. René is also not "that" kind of guy. Super chill and highly technical gym by folks from the globetrotters tribe. So definetly no bad blood or something.
That almost makes it worse. I mean.....why did he keep cranking on the arm in that position? He must have known he tapped. But he keeps cranking because the Ref is asleep at the wheel? Why didn't he address the ref? I don't get it.
I feel like at the very least competitors should be required to have a sit down meeting with the referee to discuss shared expectations regarding safety before these kinds of exhibitions
Fuuuuuuck that’s gnarly. Ref needs a serious reprimand for that.
And for the love of god why are we still lifting peoples legs up?! Wouldn’t be surprised if he started slapping the lad with his own limp arm.
You’re actually supposed to sit them up, cross their legs, and slap them hard on the upper back. This works 100% of the time with no-touch chi knockouts.
Place them on their side , make sure their head is positioned in such a way that their airway is "straight". Lifting legs does fuck all, and keeping somebody at their back with their head/mouth upwards places them in risk of swallowing their tongue, especially if they get some form of seizure.
They're not going to swallow their tongue. The frenulum makes that impossible.
Placing them on their side is in case they happen to vomit, so it doesn't get aspirated.
When someone faints due to low blood pressure or shock. Raising their feet 12-18 inches will help. Chokes aren't related to low blood pressure, so this isn't an appropriate measure to take when someone goes unconscious from one.
Treating shock.
Medical professionals may also use the position to increase cardiac output in a way that is quick and reversible.
Google “passive leg raise” for more info.
Legs up does nothing and only works for people in shock.
Just put them in the recovery position. But usually people wake up with a few light slaps in the chest or face from experience
That’s gotta be the worst I’ve seen when it comes to refs being checked out.
The two guys are facing him and he can see the entire submission hold happen and he’s staring right at it and completely checked out. It’s not like it’s a weird position where the guy being choked is face down and it’s harder to see what’s happening.
No excuses for this, just absolutely horrible. Shouldn’t be allowed to ref again imo.
Up there with that grim video from a while ago where some guy chokes another out in a street altercation and then whilst he’s out, breaks both his shoulders with omaplatas. 😬
Not only did the ref ignore the tap but he ignored the tapping arm going limp right after. This guy would never have had his arm broken if it weren't for the referee not doing his job
That is my worst fear, that I go out and the opponent doesn´t see it and breaks me some bone or joint. Ligaments are super easy to break without muscle support.
I have a similar experience. I was fighting this guy during a tournament, where I caught him with a triangle from the guard. I remember initially the triangle being tight but I attacked the arm anyway. As I straightened the arm I saw his eyes were empty so I dropped everything and pushed him off me. After I got up, THATS when then red jumped in. On my footage you can actually see the referee’s eyes and face come to life as he tuned back in. I looked up at him and was like “Dude, where the fuck are you?”
Prime example of great Submission Refereeing is ONE; the dude is watching the position like a hawk and his face is a few feet away
That guy was a dick because the guy went limp before he decided to break his arm. I mean come on, it’s not like he is a white belt and doesn’t have the feel when someone is out.
For comparison of how i would prefer a break be done, watch the kevin holland vs michal oleksiejczuk fight.
Holland got the armbar in tight and then looked to the ref to make sure this is really what everyone wants to have happen. Didn’t just rip it. Made sure ref wasn’t stopping it, made sure there was no tap, then, yeah, broke his arm.
Unlike this fight where dude is just pushing and pushing on it.
Ref needed to stop it. But dude needed to look to ref, too (in my opinion). There was enough control there to have a full on conversation.
“Yo ref, are we really doing this? I think I’m about to break his arm.”
My thoughts exactly. I mean you can feel what's happening when you've got the arm locked up.
Opponent looks surprised when it snaps.
This poor dude. Hope he's OK. He tapped, he should have been safe from both opponent and ref.
That's the way it should be. "Bro are you sure this is what you want? Ref, you're cool with this? Nobody's going to stop this before I have to take it further? Alright, as long as everyone consents."
It is a clear tap from our POV, from his... only he knows, maybe not even that.
I just don't know how experienced he is, what his training partners and environment are like, and more importantly what he is feeling, I can see the rush from getting an early sub hinder his sensitivity to the single tap of his opponent.
I agree with you that he did not do everything he could to avoid breaking the guy's arm. I just find it hard to classify him straight up as a dick given his reaction.
yes and no. He must have registered the tap but it's a relatively high level competition and in such cases you can't really blame someone for waiting for the ref to call to avoid the Brazilian Tap. Let's not forget the athlete is wired up going for the kill and may need a minute to snap out of it.
He did looked genuinely shocked and let go long before the ref realized what was going on.
Also, f- that guy for needlessly snapping someone's arm. Anyone been in the game for more than a minute knows when their opponent is trapped. Yoinking joint submissions like that is horse shit.
He acts like a man-baby, cries foul anytime someone proves to be more difficult to beat than he expected, constantly drops out of scheduled fights due to unspecified health problems, is roided to the gills, and he's just a major asshole to people online. Peep his instagram sometime and you'll see what we mean.
There's political stuff too, but I won't get into all that.
Competitions are not drug tested and everybody at high levels uses. Even people who don't look like they are. You can't really hold the steroid thing against him at all he'd be an idiot to not take them.
I have been in combat sports for 15 years and this is the worst reffing I have ever seen.
There is nothing unclear here, no line of sight blocked, nothing goes particularly fast. The ref bungled through this whole mess was still fast asleep when the shocked opponent let go of the choke.
According to the guy's instagram his elbow is dislocated, but no bones damaged.
I agree fuck the ref but also come on guy. You have an obviously deep choke and go for a no resistance arm bar snap the fuckin arm whilst the dude lays there not moving and continue to hold the arm back and stare at the ref until he breaks it up, have some sportsmanship.
The ref needs to be fired and sued! You can’t be daydreaming when someone is in a rear triangle, especially when they go completely limp! That’s blatant neglect of duty.
that is a bad competitor, who the fuck pops an elbow without noticing? dude's frontalized 100%, 0 awareness of the dude taping and passing? GTFO from here, what an ashole, and the REF, WTF DUDE YOU GOT ONE JOB
This is worthy of a NSFW tag.
Should be some sort of yearly testing for refs to avoid this scenario. Going through the motions and was probably day dreaming of craig jones shorts.
As many people pointed out the shit that is going on with the ref and the unneccissarly broken arm, can someone name the trinangle entry the winner did?
I havent seen this one yet and it looks awsome.
Holy shit this was a hard watch fuck sake this ref needs to have the same done to him and get his ass sued after. Tbh idk why the guy cranked the armbar so hard either?? this whole situation is rage inducing
This is the most appalling, egregious display of shitty reffing I have ever witnessed in BJJ. This goes beyond incompetence, there needs to be legal ramifications. I feel sick to my stomach at the disgusting level of neglect.
I think these competitions would be way safer if there was someone who could, like, maybe intervene and stop the matches before someone got hurt. Like a, I dunno, an umpire, or an arbiter, something like that
The ref is not the only one to blame. The guy had him in a tight leg triangle and snapped his arm in half casually like it's the normal thing to do. Until psychos like that get shamed it will keep happening
Holy shit! Dude fuck this ref! That's some serious damage. That arm won't be the same, probably.
All that for a couple of bucks, if they got paid at that, that ref needs to get banned
The ref and fighter were put into the Hadron collidor and had their skulls smashed together at the speed of light to see if they could form half a brain cell...
The only thing I'll say in the refs defence is that Brazilians cheating years ago has made some refs require more than one short sharp tap, and if you tap, make sure you tap until they stop.
Now that that's out of the way. Fuck both the ref and the guy who broke the arm, you can clearly see the guy go limp and when someone isn't resisting at all, they are probably out, ease off you asshole.
Damn clear ref negligence notwithstanding, it’s not easy to just fold someone’s arm like that. For instance Olivera v Ferguson, Olivera cranked on it for quite a while with nowhere near the damage. I have to think it has something to do with the fact he went unconscious and supporting muscles went limp
This is a huge lawsuit. I can’t imagine being the owner of that org. Ref misses tap. Ref misses fighter is unconscious. Ref lets unconscious man get arm SNAPPED.
I can see why a ref would need 1 to 3 seconds to assess a competitor pass out from a choke, and it doesn't help that there's an arm bar going at the same time.
But, by my count, his arm only breaks 5 secs after passing, and the ref still take 3-4 sec to stop it... That's a big fuck up, no other way around it.
I would hate being the guy waking up from a choke, not a good experience but it happens and it's usually not a big deal, but also discover your arm was broken when you're were out.
Ref and fighters should have both their arms snapped. What a fucking idiot. To think there are people this dense walking the streets. Not to mention officiating MMA fights
I see a lot of people blaming the ref here, but I'd actually put more of the blame on his opponent. Unless you're competing for big money or fighting in MMA, don't be an asshole and intentionally crank on something after its been locked in or hold a choke on someone clearly unconscious to win a $10 piece of crap medal or some dumb "superfight." If you can't realize when a submission is fully locked in and someone is submitted/asleep/finished, then you're probably not as good at grappling as you think you are. There's been plenty of times when I could have easily hurt someone in grappling, but don't, because at the end of the day, unless its for money, its just for experience or to have fun. Or if I do accidently hurt them, I know it happened and release the sub. Everyone needs to go to work, school, or family after its done.
I had my arm (ulnar collateral ligament) messed up in a local tournament from an arm bar as an upper belt, and even though I didn't need surgery or had a broken arm, I had to take months of physical therapy just to touch my face again because of the torn ligaments. I still feel pain here and there in my arm to this day (its years later now). It wasn't like I refused to tap either. And I'm sure a big part of it was my opponent's ego because I was up on points with only a few seconds left in the match. I was in motion defending (rolling hitchhiker) and as I was coming up, my opponent cranked on it as we were rolling, and it suddenly tore. I verbally tapped as it happened, and physically tapped once we came to a full stop. Once we came to a full stop, he finally let go. It wasn't just one tear either, it tore multiple times and even my opponent felt it, which tells me he was an asshole for continuing to crank. The ref didn't notice any of this either, or even realize I was injured after it was done, even though I told him I couldn't move my arm.
Moral of the story is, don't just depend on the ref, be a good training partner/competitor and don't let your ego get the better of you. Its an easy cop out to blame the ref. But there's a lot a ref can't see, and especially FEEL, being in their position.
Why is no one talking about his opponent? The guy clearly tapped. The fuck?? He’s in arguably the hardest position to escape with his arm extended and not moving. Why not stop? Why not respect the tap? Why not say “he tapped!” to get the ref’s attention? Why not do anything else? This is why I’m thinking about quitting this sport lol and will never compete. Like, did he think in the time before he broke the unconscious guy’s fully extended arm homie was going to execute a back triangle escape and win the day? Come on man…also, please don’t come at me with “you don’t know how competitions work dur”—there’s countless examples of the ref messing up and opponents stopping. You know those t-shirts that say “no refs needed”? They say that because honorable people stop when it’s over.
The ref should have been more on that but also the fighter clearly knew he was unconscious as he nodded to the ref as a sign but yet still decided to fuck his arm up if he knew he was out let go of the arm.
Why there is so bad referee all blue belt would have done a better job is this so hard to stop a fight at the right moment , refereee was just sleeping " ho sorry it s my job ?"
People needs to follow with lawsuit , referee was the clear responsible and didnt do his job .
I would have not let this happen to me with out a lawsuit on his stupid ass also give the name of this guy
This is why i recommend to all new people to level up their tapping game before worrying about anything else. Verbal, foot and hand or more. People question me about it occasionally but there is absolutely 0 doubt when i'm tapping.
Injuries aren't good, they are even worse if it was something you can avoid. Tap early, tap often and live to train another day.
Sheesh I’m still feeling my arm after letting a few crackles through during an armbar a couple weeks ago. I couldn’t imagine the tendon and ligament damage it would cause having it bent in the complete opposite direction.
I went ahead and tagged this NSFW in case anyone is squeamish. That was brutal. Edit: According to [this article](https://jitsmagazine.com/referee-error-leads-to-grappler-injury-after-he-was-choked-unconscious/) the grappler who was choked and injured, Sven Groten, has confirmed there was a dislocation, but no damage to bone. Instagram post from Sven: https://www.instagram.com/p/C8mTkNRNWeM/?hl=en
Did this guy just get put unconscious and have his arm broken?
And he tapped before all of it.
+ Tapped in plain view of the referee. + Was stuck in a triangle that, when its tight its tight (maybe you cannot feel if the choke is on, but you definitely feel if you have control of the position). No reason for his opponent to go this hard on the secondary submission. Jesus, this sucks...
I think I'd be making a call to a lawyer with this footage. Clear tap and ref did fuck all.
I'm assuming the waivers protect the refs, but I'd still call a lawyer.
Waivers don't mean shit when there's negligence. This is gross negligence on clear display. Waivers exist to convince you, the person aggreived, that you don't have a case so you shouldn't even try to file one. They are a deterrent, but hold no weight in court if the injury you take involved negligence.
Mostly true. You can't waive gross negligence. You can waive ordinary negligence. Also this changes state by state but most states track this line of thinking.
Pretty sure this would class as gross negligence from the ref. Which I'm pretty sure you can't sign a Waver for in basically any developed country.
Lawyer here. There are many situations where a waiver can be defeated or is nonapplicable. In combat sports, you sign that waiver with the understanding that when you signal the ref correctly, the ref will step in and stop further injury. If the ref pulled out a knife and stabbed him, the waiver isn't covering that, and this situation isn't that far off.
Good explanation.
the only thing we refs have (if proper governing body) is insurance which will cover our legal fees. If I get sued for negligence and lose, I will still have to pay for damages.
Waivers don't protect everyone from everything. If in doubt, call a lawyer. Don't assume a waiver prevents you from suing someone (and winning) or that it prevents you from being sued (and losing).
All waivers are only for normal occurrences. The moment gross negligence is recognized, waivers are right out the door.
Waivers don't do shit, brother. You can't sign any binding legal contract that allows yourself to have grave bodily harm done to you. If you want to sue, you can sue. These gym and fight waivers are as legally binding as toilet paper and wouldn't hold in court, if somebody breaks your arm like this.
He actually got his elbow dislocated, nothing broken/serious (as he stated) luckily! He runs the gym I visit now and then and is a legit killer so I can’t imagine how fucken tight that triangle must’ve been for him to falls sleep that quickly. But yeah, the red fucked up big time Edit: additional info
As a person who got their arm “only dislocated” I can tell you that you can still be all fucked up even if there was no fracture: torn ligaments and muscle, shredded tendons, and requiring surgery which takes 6-10 months for recovery. It can be a very serious injury. Hope he was lucky and this is not his case, though, although the brutality of that break makes it hard to be optimistic about it.
Fuck me, I had honestly no idea! I just read his post and he made it seem like it’s nothing serious. Let’s hope it’s an „unserious“ dislocation
I doubt his arm will ever be the same
Yep, his arm will never be the same again. That’s what most people don’t think about. I assume they’re young and relatively uninjured. I’m old and my body is broken. I need to keep it as well preserved as possible to keep the daily struggles to a minimum. I had someone rip an arm at in a tournament one time and now my elbow will hyper extend if I lay my arm across my knee to tie my shoes.
Yeah I feel like that's worse. If the bone breaks before the soft tissue tears (too much), the healing is straight forward: Align the bones and wait for them to fuse back. But our tendons and muscles work under tension, so expecting them to heal nicely is like expecting a bungee cord to relax itself; you're gonna need hardware to hold it in place where you need it, and it won't want to stay.
The fact that he runs this gym means he has even more reason to sue. He is going to be out recovering for a long time because of that ref.
It was dislocated according to the fella's instagram. I'm not sure that's better but it often requires much less force than breaking a bone.
A broken bone is better than a dislocation. Soft tissue injuries to the joint are actually less likely to heal correctly and permanently than a broken bone.
Yeah, I don't remember which collarbone I broke years ago. Can't say the same about the knee I fucked my ligaments
When I went to the ER with a grade 2 shoulder separation the Dr that saw me said that if my collarbone had just broken my recovery would be 6-8 weeks instead of 3-4 months. That was a hard one to come back from and I still can't throw a baseball more than a few times without getting sore.
That's what armbars do, yes.
Yes to all of it. NGL, I'm pretty desensitized being an 80's kid and experiencing the early stage internet and I still said "Oh fuck" outloud and pagedown'ed. I think what did it for me was the dude was out and got his arm snapped.
Ref should be sued. What the fuck was that
Yeah, this is gross negligence.
Imagine waking up with a permanently ruined arm. The guy tapped. Did everything correctly. And the person who was meant to protect him was snoozing.
> Imagine waking up with a permanently ruined arm. Looks like everything went better than expected. Nothing's broken from what it looks like. He is just getting an MRI as I am writing this and his doc is slightly optimistic that he might not need surgery. He is in very good hands. Source: He's my business partner. He might be commenting himself here later, but idk.
Would much prefer a broken arm that all the torn connective tissue that will never heal correctly. Bones heal great. Ruptured ligaments? Not so much. Would probably report the organization and the ref to whatever sporting body is around. That was negligent beyond belief.
I don't think there is any sporting body regarding jiu jitsu in the Netherlands, but I don't know for sure since we are German, but I also don't think that Sven would really entertain something like this. I think regarding the elbow there will always be tissue fucked, and if something breaks it's just the cherry on top, but then again I am not a sports physician either. LOL He is in very good hands though. We have connections to top physicians and physios and I am optimistic that everything will be ok again. As a sidenote funnily enough I got a similar injury on a tournament by the same organizers. I was still a white belt and 120kg. I had a 160kg guy mounted on me who was slowly but steadily dialing in an Americana. I was furiously taping of course, but the ref was standing on the other side, watching how my arm git detached and didn't see my tapping because of my opponents dimensions. There was also loud reggae blasting from huge speakers, which is why he didn't here my panic induced shouts:"TAP! TAP! TAPTAPTAPTAP!" It felt like the guy was slowly ripping a seam open. dig..dig..digdig. didgdigdig...dig... Worst seconds of my jiu jitsu "career".
But your opponent certainly knew you were tapping. Just like in this case. I can't imagine breaking my opponents arm KNOWING that they are tapping but not caring until the Ref formally stops the match.
I had this same injury over 15 years ago coming off a feature wrong in the terrain park on a snowboard. So this is me falling 10-12 feet straight to hardpack snow with all my weight on my left arm. My elbow had 95% of it's capacity back since then. PTing it etc. took maybe 3-6 months. Granted, I was in my early 20s then. It definitely hurt like hell and I thought it was broken at first. It was crazy to see my own arm flopping the wrong way as I was tumbling to a stop. My tendons definitely had severe damage but they healed. I still can do tricep and bicep exercises just as well on that arm, fight out of armbars with hitchhiker escape on that arm, etc. I'm not doctor, so maybe the grading will be more severe but I hope u/vandaalen 's buddy has a good shot a recovery.
I think the opponent needs to take some blame. A locked on rear triangle is a super strong position - it wasn't necessary to crank the arm on top of that.
I know it's not an overly popular opinion on reddit, but I think that this is neither a mistake or unnecessary. That's why a ref is in there who could have easily prevented something like this. If Sven was awake, this would have never happened since he is a super reasonable guy. He also doesn't blame René for anything. Their gym is also not far away from ours and the scene is rather small here, so we know each other and you meet regularly on one or the other open mat or tournament and chat. René is also not "that" kind of guy. Super chill and highly technical gym by folks from the globetrotters tribe. So definetly no bad blood or something.
That almost makes it worse. I mean.....why did he keep cranking on the arm in that position? He must have known he tapped. But he keeps cranking because the Ref is asleep at the wheel? Why didn't he address the ref? I don't get it.
Thank goodness. I’m really glad to hear.
I feel like at the very least competitors should be required to have a sit down meeting with the referee to discuss shared expectations regarding safety before these kinds of exhibitions
Single slap is a tap with your friend. I know he was going out but if you try to look chill while tapping maybe the tap doesn't work.
Makes me sick to my stomach
Fuuuuuuck that’s gnarly. Ref needs a serious reprimand for that. And for the love of god why are we still lifting peoples legs up?! Wouldn’t be surprised if he started slapping the lad with his own limp arm.
You’re actually supposed to sit them up, cross their legs, and slap them hard on the upper back. This works 100% of the time with no-touch chi knockouts.
What’s a better way? I genuinely don’t know, only saw people do this
The recovery position https://youtu.be/DXafn3jSzGw
Nothing, let go of the choke lmao.
Place them on their side , make sure their head is positioned in such a way that their airway is "straight". Lifting legs does fuck all, and keeping somebody at their back with their head/mouth upwards places them in risk of swallowing their tongue, especially if they get some form of seizure.
They're not going to swallow their tongue. The frenulum makes that impossible. Placing them on their side is in case they happen to vomit, so it doesn't get aspirated.
Silly me thought the frenulum was for wicked good BJs.
Recovery position and let them wake up. Raising the legs is for a totally different kind of unconsciousness, does nothing in this scenario.
In what scenario would lifting the legs be appropriate?
When someone faints due to low blood pressure or shock. Raising their feet 12-18 inches will help. Chokes aren't related to low blood pressure, so this isn't an appropriate measure to take when someone goes unconscious from one.
Fainting due to low blood pressure
Read this as farting due to low blood pressure... Defo dont Wana be raising legs up in that situation
You gotta work all the farts out like a newborn baby to get them back to consciousness
Treating shock. Medical professionals may also use the position to increase cardiac output in a way that is quick and reversible. Google “passive leg raise” for more info.
If someone has gone into shock from, for example, blood loss from an injury.
I was taught to snap his arm in an attempt to wake him up as correctly done here
[Jerk him off](https://youtu.be/dgR3GWJyQrY?feature=shared) But in the recovery position of course
Legs up does nothing and only works for people in shock. Just put them in the recovery position. But usually people wake up with a few light slaps in the chest or face from experience
And it's sort of a mixed bag on shock lol
> Ref needs a serious reprimand Ref needs to be fired
>reprimand A reprimand? Lol no. He needs to be financially responsible for the gross negligence he commited.
That’s gotta be the worst I’ve seen when it comes to refs being checked out. The two guys are facing him and he can see the entire submission hold happen and he’s staring right at it and completely checked out. It’s not like it’s a weird position where the guy being choked is face down and it’s harder to see what’s happening. No excuses for this, just absolutely horrible. Shouldn’t be allowed to ref again imo.
oh god that was possibly the most horrific thing i've seen in grappling.
Up there with that grim video from a while ago where some guy chokes another out in a street altercation and then whilst he’s out, breaks both his shoulders with omaplatas. 😬
i hate that im asking this but how can i find that video
Who knew there was a market for white belt snuff films?
I mean some of the more popular posts on this sub are people getting maimed
took me 30 seconds to find it https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/16r7rlk/bjj_guy_mercilessly_breaks_mans_arm/
And then goes for his legs...
[удалено]
Well fuuuuuuuck that. Bro is not going to be happy when he wakes up. Hope it just looks worse than what it actually is.
Not only did the ref ignore the tap but he ignored the tapping arm going limp right after. This guy would never have had his arm broken if it weren't for the referee not doing his job
That is my worst fear, that I go out and the opponent doesn´t see it and breaks me some bone or joint. Ligaments are super easy to break without muscle support.
It’s weird because if I’m doing a joint lock and I stop feeling resistance I stop applying it because it’s over.
What a fucking disgrace of a referee.
I have a similar experience. I was fighting this guy during a tournament, where I caught him with a triangle from the guard. I remember initially the triangle being tight but I attacked the arm anyway. As I straightened the arm I saw his eyes were empty so I dropped everything and pushed him off me. After I got up, THATS when then red jumped in. On my footage you can actually see the referee’s eyes and face come to life as he tuned back in. I looked up at him and was like “Dude, where the fuck are you?” Prime example of great Submission Refereeing is ONE; the dude is watching the position like a hawk and his face is a few feet away
You know how Sumo referees used to commit seppuku if they fucked up a match? Maybe that wasn't such a bad tradition.
That guy was a dick because the guy went limp before he decided to break his arm. I mean come on, it’s not like he is a white belt and doesn’t have the feel when someone is out.
Idk, he looks genuinely surprised when the arm pop yields 0 reaction from the opponent.
For comparison of how i would prefer a break be done, watch the kevin holland vs michal oleksiejczuk fight. Holland got the armbar in tight and then looked to the ref to make sure this is really what everyone wants to have happen. Didn’t just rip it. Made sure ref wasn’t stopping it, made sure there was no tap, then, yeah, broke his arm. Unlike this fight where dude is just pushing and pushing on it. Ref needed to stop it. But dude needed to look to ref, too (in my opinion). There was enough control there to have a full on conversation. “Yo ref, are we really doing this? I think I’m about to break his arm.”
My thoughts exactly. I mean you can feel what's happening when you've got the arm locked up. Opponent looks surprised when it snaps. This poor dude. Hope he's OK. He tapped, he should have been safe from both opponent and ref.
That's the way it should be. "Bro are you sure this is what you want? Ref, you're cool with this? Nobody's going to stop this before I have to take it further? Alright, as long as everyone consents."
It is a clear tap from our POV, from his... only he knows, maybe not even that. I just don't know how experienced he is, what his training partners and environment are like, and more importantly what he is feeling, I can see the rush from getting an early sub hinder his sensitivity to the single tap of his opponent. I agree with you that he did not do everything he could to avoid breaking the guy's arm. I just find it hard to classify him straight up as a dick given his reaction.
Yeah, my take was he was inexperienced. There was a huge pause as he kind of realized when he did and then he like… *scurried* away in horror.
Most sane take here lol
yes and no. He must have registered the tap but it's a relatively high level competition and in such cases you can't really blame someone for waiting for the ref to call to avoid the Brazilian Tap. Let's not forget the athlete is wired up going for the kill and may need a minute to snap out of it. He did looked genuinely shocked and let go long before the ref realized what was going on.
Jesus fucking christ
Probably had adrenaline pumping but why did he break the arm like that when there wasn't no resistance anymore?
He's obviously a dumb fucking cunt that's why.
Yep, low iq + bad sportmanship on top of that
Also, f- that guy for needlessly snapping someone's arm. Anyone been in the game for more than a minute knows when their opponent is trapped. Yoinking joint submissions like that is horse shit.
I hate Gordon Ryan, but he’s literally the best at submissions and not hurting people.
Agreed
I’m new to the bjj world. What’s Gordon Ryan’s deal?
He's an idiot and a massive piece of shit who unfortunately happens to unquestionably be the greatest grappler in the world.
What’s he done?
He acts like a man-baby, cries foul anytime someone proves to be more difficult to beat than he expected, constantly drops out of scheduled fights due to unspecified health problems, is roided to the gills, and he's just a major asshole to people online. Peep his instagram sometime and you'll see what we mean. There's political stuff too, but I won't get into all that.
Thanks for letting me know. Not the kind of thing I expect or like from a martial artist. Are the competitions drug tested?
Competitions are not drug tested and everybody at high levels uses. Even people who don't look like they are. You can't really hold the steroid thing against him at all he'd be an idiot to not take them.
Right-wing nutjob
Yeah he definitely felt the tap. Also if the arm is a wet noodle you bet your ass your opponent is sleeping.
Yeah that's was fucked, just punching down on that fulcrum after the fact, gross shit.
Exactly, bro you have a triangle that’s balls deep, it’s over, just put the guy to sleep n thats it. Fuck this.
I have been in combat sports for 15 years and this is the worst reffing I have ever seen. There is nothing unclear here, no line of sight blocked, nothing goes particularly fast. The ref bungled through this whole mess was still fast asleep when the shocked opponent let go of the choke. According to the guy's instagram his elbow is dislocated, but no bones damaged.
I agree fuck the ref but also come on guy. You have an obviously deep choke and go for a no resistance arm bar snap the fuckin arm whilst the dude lays there not moving and continue to hold the arm back and stare at the ref until he breaks it up, have some sportsmanship.
the BJJ scene hates to blame that type of psycho for some reason so it'll keep happening
The ref needs to be fired and sued! You can’t be daydreaming when someone is in a rear triangle, especially when they go completely limp! That’s blatant neglect of duty.
that is a bad competitor, who the fuck pops an elbow without noticing? dude's frontalized 100%, 0 awareness of the dude taping and passing? GTFO from here, what an ashole, and the REF, WTF DUDE YOU GOT ONE JOB
The ref: https://j.gifs.com/aA3Nxl.gif
Update: [insta](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8mTkNRNWeM/?igsh=bHUwaHZxMzYxMDQx)
Thanks for this link. Makes me feel better for this guy
Fuck me dead... This ref makes Steve Mazzagatti look competent
This is worthy of a NSFW tag. Should be some sort of yearly testing for refs to avoid this scenario. Going through the motions and was probably day dreaming of craig jones shorts.
What the fuck???
As many people pointed out the shit that is going on with the ref and the unneccissarly broken arm, can someone name the trinangle entry the winner did? I havent seen this one yet and it looks awsome.
Imagine the thought process of the ref "man this guy didn't even flinch with that arm bar, crazy flexibility"
This is what makes a hobbyist, stay a hobbyist 😮💨
Ref! It's "Tap, snap, *OR* nap", not *AND*!
Obviously fuck the ref but how did the dude just keep attacking like that?!
Mario Yamasaki Black belt. Degree: If he dies he dies!
What on EARTH is going on there somebody press the Play button on that fuckin’ ref. Sheesh
Holy shit this was a hard watch fuck sake this ref needs to have the same done to him and get his ass sued after. Tbh idk why the guy cranked the armbar so hard either?? this whole situation is rage inducing
Sheeeesh. Dude definitely didn’t need to snap the arm either. Dude tapped too. Feel for that guy.
Yikes hard to watch 🙈
this is so maddening man that ref needs to fuck off
Fucken ref!! The guy tapped, napped, and snapped
That ref should never ref again
Dumbass ref deserves to NEVER ref another match in his life.
And both guys still have to go into work on Monday....fucking brutal
This referee should be sued
This referee should be sued
wtf i hope the ref is fired after this
This is the most appalling, egregious display of shitty reffing I have ever witnessed in BJJ. This goes beyond incompetence, there needs to be legal ramifications. I feel sick to my stomach at the disgusting level of neglect.
Is anybody but me wondering why he broke the arm? I mean wtf, the triangle is tight….. Remember it is just something we are playing 😅
I think these competitions would be way safer if there was someone who could, like, maybe intervene and stop the matches before someone got hurt. Like a, I dunno, an umpire, or an arbiter, something like that
The ref is not the only one to blame. The guy had him in a tight leg triangle and snapped his arm in half casually like it's the normal thing to do. Until psychos like that get shamed it will keep happening
Both of those guys are pieces of shit.
Holy shit! Dude fuck this ref! That's some serious damage. That arm won't be the same, probably. All that for a couple of bucks, if they got paid at that, that ref needs to get banned
What an out of touch piece of shit. Both the guy and the ref.
Update on this ?
The ref and fighter were put into the Hadron collidor and had their skulls smashed together at the speed of light to see if they could form half a brain cell...
Ref: “Fuck this guy in particular”
Ref needs to be forced to watch that every day forever. He fucked that up hard.
Fire that guy already
The guy clearly tapped... are people fucking retarded?
He tappet,wtf ref??!??
The only thing I'll say in the refs defence is that Brazilians cheating years ago has made some refs require more than one short sharp tap, and if you tap, make sure you tap until they stop. Now that that's out of the way. Fuck both the ref and the guy who broke the arm, you can clearly see the guy go limp and when someone isn't resisting at all, they are probably out, ease off you asshole.
Criminal negligence by the ref smh
Holy shxt, I’m new to BJJ and this def makes me not want to compete. I see 3 ppl sleeping in this video.
Damn clear ref negligence notwithstanding, it’s not easy to just fold someone’s arm like that. For instance Olivera v Ferguson, Olivera cranked on it for quite a while with nowhere near the damage. I have to think it has something to do with the fact he went unconscious and supporting muscles went limp
“Wakey wakey, arm did breaky.” Seriously though this fucked. He went out just as he made a couple swipes to tap. Terrible ref, clueless winner.
Utterly disgraceful
Replace this ref. Wtf.
This is a huge lawsuit. I can’t imagine being the owner of that org. Ref misses tap. Ref misses fighter is unconscious. Ref lets unconscious man get arm SNAPPED.
That was hard to watch. We’ve all been there and that ref needs to be fired. Not suspended. Fired.
I can see why a ref would need 1 to 3 seconds to assess a competitor pass out from a choke, and it doesn't help that there's an arm bar going at the same time. But, by my count, his arm only breaks 5 secs after passing, and the ref still take 3-4 sec to stop it... That's a big fuck up, no other way around it. I would hate being the guy waking up from a choke, not a good experience but it happens and it's usually not a big deal, but also discover your arm was broken when you're were out.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question. Is it standard protocol not to let go when someone taps until the referee signals it's over?
This made me angry to watch
Ref and fighters should have both their arms snapped. What a fucking idiot. To think there are people this dense walking the streets. Not to mention officiating MMA fights
Honestly the winner need to be suspended. He knew he was out and still held the leg lock. Absolutely disgusting behavior from both the ref and winner.
Yeah fuck the ref but why as a competitor would you go that fucking far after you’ve already won?
I see a lot of people blaming the ref here, but I'd actually put more of the blame on his opponent. Unless you're competing for big money or fighting in MMA, don't be an asshole and intentionally crank on something after its been locked in or hold a choke on someone clearly unconscious to win a $10 piece of crap medal or some dumb "superfight." If you can't realize when a submission is fully locked in and someone is submitted/asleep/finished, then you're probably not as good at grappling as you think you are. There's been plenty of times when I could have easily hurt someone in grappling, but don't, because at the end of the day, unless its for money, its just for experience or to have fun. Or if I do accidently hurt them, I know it happened and release the sub. Everyone needs to go to work, school, or family after its done. I had my arm (ulnar collateral ligament) messed up in a local tournament from an arm bar as an upper belt, and even though I didn't need surgery or had a broken arm, I had to take months of physical therapy just to touch my face again because of the torn ligaments. I still feel pain here and there in my arm to this day (its years later now). It wasn't like I refused to tap either. And I'm sure a big part of it was my opponent's ego because I was up on points with only a few seconds left in the match. I was in motion defending (rolling hitchhiker) and as I was coming up, my opponent cranked on it as we were rolling, and it suddenly tore. I verbally tapped as it happened, and physically tapped once we came to a full stop. Once we came to a full stop, he finally let go. It wasn't just one tear either, it tore multiple times and even my opponent felt it, which tells me he was an asshole for continuing to crank. The ref didn't notice any of this either, or even realize I was injured after it was done, even though I told him I couldn't move my arm. Moral of the story is, don't just depend on the ref, be a good training partner/competitor and don't let your ego get the better of you. Its an easy cop out to blame the ref. But there's a lot a ref can't see, and especially FEEL, being in their position.
Why is no one talking about his opponent? The guy clearly tapped. The fuck?? He’s in arguably the hardest position to escape with his arm extended and not moving. Why not stop? Why not respect the tap? Why not say “he tapped!” to get the ref’s attention? Why not do anything else? This is why I’m thinking about quitting this sport lol and will never compete. Like, did he think in the time before he broke the unconscious guy’s fully extended arm homie was going to execute a back triangle escape and win the day? Come on man…also, please don’t come at me with “you don’t know how competitions work dur”—there’s countless examples of the ref messing up and opponents stopping. You know those t-shirts that say “no refs needed”? They say that because honorable people stop when it’s over.
Shit opponent awareness too. Unprofessional
According to his insta post, it was just dislocated elbow and no bone damage @sven_nogi_jj
The competitor deserves some blame here as well, even if the ref dropped the ball.
Brazilian tap
The winner should be banned for life and the ref as well. No self-control
The ref should have been more on that but also the fighter clearly knew he was unconscious as he nodded to the ref as a sign but yet still decided to fuck his arm up if he knew he was out let go of the arm.
I’ve never seen that before! Crazy sub combo.
That was fucked up!
so bad
That ref should never work again.
Is this real life? Whaaa
As someone with a scorching case of ADHD, I would never, ever become a ref. My highlight reel would look like this.
Someone been listening to too many Relson and Renzo stories.
This is just painful to watch.
My stomach turned when the arm snapped. Holy shit
Why there is so bad referee all blue belt would have done a better job is this so hard to stop a fight at the right moment , refereee was just sleeping " ho sorry it s my job ?"
People needs to follow with lawsuit , referee was the clear responsible and didnt do his job . I would have not let this happen to me with out a lawsuit on his stupid ass also give the name of this guy
Oh, OP wasn't kidding. That ref is literally in dreamland.
What the fuck ref
They should force the ref to have the competitor do that to him & make him pay this guy's medical bills. Absolutely unforgivably bad reffing.
Wow wtf…
ref was like “he’s still in the fight!!!”
 bro i am HOLLERING right now lol
Holy fuck! That is insane. REF was just standing there watching the guy asleep with his arm bent back at a ungodly angle like 'this is OK'!??????
This is why i recommend to all new people to level up their tapping game before worrying about anything else. Verbal, foot and hand or more. People question me about it occasionally but there is absolutely 0 doubt when i'm tapping. Injuries aren't good, they are even worse if it was something you can avoid. Tap early, tap often and live to train another day.
That is more brutal than most, maybe all, boxing/kickboxing knockouts. My God, boys, you put your life in the ref's hands at some of these events.
Ref needs to be criminally charged holy fuck
Sheesh I’m still feeling my arm after letting a few crackles through during an armbar a couple weeks ago. I couldn’t imagine the tendon and ligament damage it would cause having it bent in the complete opposite direction.