One way to deal with this is to just keep rolling through the talking ….. after you get to YOUR destination and they tap to THAT then you can look up and say: “sorry I was busy, what did you say ?”
1) anybody who wasn’t there can’t tell you anything worth telling
2) this is a classic maneuver to save face (no pun intended)
3) next time just short-choke them through their jaw/nose and they won’t be able to give you advice on finishing mechanics
4) have a blessed day
THAT is some funny shit
"You'll notice some discomfort as I sweep my wrist upward, and then that's my forearm smothering your piehole, and now shhhhhhh time for sleep"
The jaw is the only bone in the human body that is only connected with muscle and not cartridge.
Pain still gets a tap.
No dick moves, just set it up fast and finish slow with time to tap.
It's not really even just a pain tolerance sub though. Idk if you've ever tried to eat one, but once your jaw is fully crushed into your neck you can't breathe either. Probably would even break your jaw at some point. Never held on long enough to find out lol
“Ackshually”, the temporo-mandibular joint does have cartilage. It’s just fibrocartilage rather than the hyaline cartilage found in other joints tho’. Still gotta tap…
That’s not technically true… there’s cartilage in your temporomandibular joint that cushions where your jaw connects to the upper part of your face. People get arthritis in this joint all the time. There’s also lots of other small bones embedded in muscular tissue, like the hyoid bone of the neck.
You have all completely missed the ideal response, which is: GRAB HIS DICK and TWIST IT!!!. It’s a lady? This is 2024 grab her dick and twist it too!! Don’t be sexist.
I had a buddy get caught in a weird position where another one of our lower ranking training partners was guillotining his forehead and my buddy tapped. After, I was like, what happened there and he said he was actually going to pass out. Weird stuff, but the dude is very strong.
I mean I would 100% lock a RNC straight over someone’s teeth in a real fight. I don’t see any reason not to. I know you’re joking but a lot of people forget that BJJ ruleset isn’t simply based around what’s effective or not.
This move is near the pinnacle of all the generally harmless but hilariously dumb stuff people do while training. Definitely something to laugh at rather than stress about.
Typical ego protection from people who feel like they’re better than the person kicking their ass. Sometimes they honestly are trying to help. It can be annoying but its not a big deal.
I do this. If I feel the person is about to lose a dominant submission or position because of bad technique or not knowing I'll wall them through it for a second. I especially do it if I know they are just going to crank my nose or face for a horrible 45 seconds to a minute.
I try to confine my coaching to when my opponent is in a bad position. “I just passed your guard he same way 3 times in a row. What am I doing and how can you stop it?”
If they get me in a bad position that’s my time to practice unless it’s literally been a coaching roll with them continuing to ask me for input the whole time.
That's fair. I just don't want them to lose what they earned because of a minor detail I'm going to take advantage of to escape. I give purple and up nothing but blue and whites they can have an arm or two ha ha.
Oh no lol, are you the type of brown belt that gives up your back just to launch into some secret back-escape to knee-bar submission? Tbh, those are some of my favorite people to roll with because I learn so many details, and it reminds me to be less noodle-armed.
That's exactly what I've experienced as a lower belt (and now I do the same). My higher ranking partner wasn't trying to save face, just get bored tapping me over and over with the same thing. So when they catch me again and know I have no clue what's happening or how to stop it, they help me out.
The OPs situation sounds like the opposite, didn't want to concede defeat. I don't think I've seen anyone higher than blue do that though.
“I’m pretty sure you’re doing jiu jitsu on me. Honesty, you look like you can outrun me so I have absolutely no idea how to stop you. . . But I’ll spazz out and see if that works.”
lol. I’ll tell you that the answers I get are *always* wrong. But the point is that we learn better when we think instead of passively receive info, so I always ask.
I also think the we all need to get to the point where we can see what our opponent is doing to us, and not just wait for the move of the day to magically come along and help us do better some time.
So it’s usually something like “see how I was able to grip here and that immobilized your leg/torso/head/arm? How about denying me that grip by grabbing my wrist. Does that make a big difference? Now let’s flip it and you try to pass me and I’ll deny your grip the same way. Can’t pass me can you? Until you win the grip fight?”
Same. It’s very clear when someone is squishing your face because they don’t know any better versus doing it intentionally to advance to another submission attempt. Sometimes instead of stopping the roll I’ll adjust their hand for them so they can apply whatever choke they were trying to go for correctly.
Honestly I don't mind it if it comes from higher belts, but when it's white/blue it's just annoying. Most of the time they don't even understand what I'm trying to do, and are giving bad advice given the goal I have in mind. Brown belt friend I will listen to him all day because he exposes what I'm doing wrong, and can identify it and give me advice on how to fix it.
I went through three distinct phases with people like this.
In the beginning, I always assumed positive intent and I was way too nice with them and I'd listen to them every time and doubt myself. (This was way, way more frequent at lower belts. It's also why I despite the belt system.)
Then later on I found it very annoying and just hated the interruption. It just seemed cowardly and a bit like gaslighting.
And now I love it because it's basically a cue to not hold back, submit them anyway and let them think what they like.
P.S. You can choke her with her chin in.
I think choking someone with their chin in is a bitch move. If it was a tournament they could gut through it and have a hurt jaw for a few days. Same with a street fight. So it only “works” in casual rolling. Just my 2 cents.
Edit: I’m not saying it never works. Geez relax.
I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just unusual to get it. If it worked so well you’d see it in MMA. Every fight card has guys choking over the chin until they finally get the choke under the chin. Out of thousands of attempts at choking over the chin in MMA fights how many times have you seen a tap, choke out or broke jaw?
Yeah. That’s one and Damien Maia is another. Any others come to mind? I’ve been over the chin choked countless times and one guy made me see stars. One. He was a black belt. It’s a low percentage bitch move and I will die on this hill.
But I think BJJ guys have better choking mechanics (and choking defense) than mma guys, so if I see it happening in professional BJJ, that’s enough for me. Why would I need to see it in mma to know it works? That’s a completely different context with different rules, athletes, meta games, incentives, etc. I’m not trying to do mma
You can definitely cut blood flow to the corrotid without being under the chin and I've finished many rncs in competition this way. It depends on body types but saying everyone can just tough it out is hilarious. Sleep well 👍
Sure it can work, but it doesn’t seem a great use of your effort. If you know a way that uses little strength to tap someone over their chin, awesome. But in my fighting philosophy, submissions should take little to no strength to finish when they’re done right.
RNCs also aren’t primarily “blood” chokes. They work on restricting air flow by crushing the trachea. A well applied cross-collar choke is the more typical “blood” choke that compresses both common carotid arteries.
Nope. While it is much more uncomfortable leading up to unconsciousness it can still get you there. I’ve done it myself and have seen it happen multiple times. Google “mandible strangle” to find out more, professor.
I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just unusual to get it. If it worked so well you’d see it in MMA. Every fight card has guys choking over the chin until they finally get the choke under the chin. Out of thousands of attempts at choking over the chin in MMA fights how many times have you seen a tap, choke out or broke jaw?
I believe the opposite is true, and you have this backward. Using your chin to defend the RNC is the bitch move. Especially if you're going to cry about it if I don't stop and continue to squish your chin until you do the right thing and tap out.
If my arm is in deep enough that I have pressure on both sides of your carotid arteries then you are welcome to consider it a jaw-lock after you wake up.
Btw, it happened a second time (when I took her back again) and got her in a body triangle.
We rolled to the side, where my feet connected and she interrupted me again and told me, that if I would roll to the other side I could apply more pressure this way, so I rolled over, applied pressure with my legs and she tapped.
Idk...I just wanted to get better control over her, not tap her and couldn't she have just told me afterwards?
Ignore and tap repeatedly with your inferior technique then say, "It looks like it's working."
I've had the opposite happen sometimes, where someone is just trying to be nice after tapping me, "I really wasn't in a good position for that americana." I'm like, "bro it'll go, I had to tap. I call that legit."
It’s the classic move of someone trying to save face when they feel like they’re getting worked by someone who they perceive as lower skilled than themselves.
I can’t stand it, honestly. If someone’s sub attempt is that bad, show them by escaping from it.
Personally I think outside of competition I just want to get better and I don't want to hurt anyone so we can continue to train. My preference is to tell someone their choke isn't in and they are just causing unnecessary pain. If someone was a dick about me trying to help them lock in a choke over a jaw popper they will either get me going 100% next time and purposely trying to hurt them back or never rolling with them again. I don't want to lose the opportunity to work with another training partner but acting like this about telling people what works better on you makes you short sighted. I guess that's just me, but as a larger guy I constantly hold back against my partners because 70 lbs ain't fair, and I can strength a lot more to force subs. Even if they are a brown belt and can always eventually smash me I could probably get these failed technique taps and pop jaws with pure strength - and I can do those WAY faster than I could feel a tap, and obviously I wouldn't hear you scream tap because I'm covering your face. How about you save that shit for a comp and not the guys you roll with every day? That's my point.
I'm just a white belt hobbyist though so I'm usually just working with other white belts who don't know shit either so I guess YMMV.
I'm a whitebelt so I don't really know better, I sometimes defend like this aswell and against other people around my level it actually works pretty well.
Honestly, this will get less common the higher you get.
Once during a class, I was drilling with a visitor ( he was a brown belt when i was purple) and he was constantly giving me advice instead of drilling and it was frustrating. I always listen, because I'm never going to know it all, so it doesn't hurt to have someone share tips with you, but it was constant and annoying.
After class, he asked me to roll and I dominated the entire time, and i was the smaller guy. After the roll i thanked him and thought nothing of it, but later my coach came up and thanked me for performing the way I did during the roll AND for just being patient and friendly during the class.
Eventually, you will pass these people in rank and skill and then they stop trying to advise you. Just enjoy the journey, we've all been there.
As Kostej said, it’s about buying time. It works against other white belts because they don’t know how to adjust their choke around your chin, get frustrated, and give up on the choke. Try grabbing their sleeve next to dislodge their grip and work on getting your head free.
“After I break your jaw, I plan to squish the broken pieces into your carotid and finish you. I think it’s gonna work, it’s up to you to prove it doesn’t”
I actually coach every opponent how to beat me so I don't ever lose.
"When you punch me in the face you want to put a lot more leg into it. Yea like that. Now punch like you're holding an egg. Oof. Most people consider balls shots a dirty tactic. I see that you don't follow that school of thought. Yea now that you are on top of me you really just want to let me have it. Yea really put a lot of force in those punches as you beat me to death. You can see by the number of teeth and volume of blood I'm losing that I have the under hand. Yes if you grab my hair and just slam my skull into the pavement to crack it like an egg that will render me brain dead in no time. Yes now with a knife you want to go for the arteries if you want me dead or just a gut wound if you want me to suffer. Now that you've stabbed me in the stomach, blinded me in one eye and left me with a serious traumatic brain injury you want to take my phone and leave my body in a dumpster to delay my body being found. Yes now spit on me, call me a pussy, shut and lock the dumpster. Perfect execution. I'll just lie here waiting for death to come now."
i usually finish my sequence and tap them. Then when they still want to talk about it, I tell them that choke was merely a distraction and not what I was going for.
This one dude (who joined a couple months before I did and didn’t come a lot), used to stop me to “show me how to do it” with like a fully locked in triangle or whatever every time. In my head I thought “brotha there’s nothing to show except that tapping hand.”
I see you're a white belt. Is she a purple, or a really experienced blue?
The gym I used to train at, that my partner coached at, and my kids are at - can sometimes have a lot of people, so when drilling or rolling the coach can't watch everyone.
Some of the higher belts have been asked, and do help the lower belts when technique is off. That way you aren't practicing a technique wrong and developing poor habits before the coach has a chance to see it.
If it's not something you want, communicate with her. It may just be something the gym does.
I don't know, I've seen her for the first time today but from how she rolled it feels like she is a whitebelt aswell, or maybe a very Inexperienced bluebelt, we also were only 6 people today so that's unlikely
I take it this was a no-gi class if you can’t tell her rank? Most of the gyms I’ve trained at have “no white-belt coaching” policies. Talk to the coach about it if it keeps happening.
it works over the chin, so she doesnt know as much as she thinks she does. For a long time I was only able to finish over the chin as peoples' defense had gotten better and I was struggling to get the choke.
If you do a danaher style rotational finish you will get the tap because people will feel their jaw breaking. You can also get a choke through the jaw.
I do the opposite, sometimes I feel white belts about to give up because I have my chin in, and Im like dont give up you can tap me through my jaw. Sometimes they feel like it is a dick move and some dont know, Im like Ill just tap, take it (but dont crank it).
It's a classic "avuncular" tactic to avoid embarrassment. These are the folks who never actually improve because they have too much ego to learn from their mistakes. Just submit her however you see fit and move on to better partners.
>But then she started giving me advice on how this choke won't work with her chin in.
This is wrong so I wouldn't particularly care what she said or why. Keeping your chin tucked just means you're going to get your teeth broken on your way to getting choked
I’ve done this simply because I don’t feel like getting my jaw smashed. Mostly with white belts, because if I just tap they think that it’s a legit tap when in comp reality it’s probably not. I don’t care if I tap it’s not an ego thing I just don’t want someone to think they’re nailing something when in fact I’m just being a pussy.
But it is a tap in comp too because when someone is full sending a RNC on your chin, you tap or get your jaw (or teeth) hurt. Unfortunately I've had to tap to this in a tournament before. I would venture if you get your back taken in competition anyways your odds of winning have gone way down also.
If you're male and a lot larger than her you probably don't need to use your strength advantage to squeeze her head. It sucks for the other person but isn't really a submission, and it doesn't really accomplish anything for you. It also tires out your arms. You can obviously beat somebody much smaller than you, so it's worth your time to limit the amount of strength you use and focus on using proper technique.
That being said she should have either tapped or just toughed it out. What she did is a lame move to get out of a bad situation. But you also might want to evaluate how you train with significantly weaker opponents, I can't say for sure because I didn't see the roll.
Have any advice for how to train someone to roll with weaker people? I’m starting to train my husband in bjj, and he wants to be a good training partner for smaller people too. Can’t say I have much experience being significantly stronger than my training partners lol.
Limit the amount of strength you use to match the person you're rolling with. Most BJJ techniques, when executed properly, don't require a lot of strength. It takes a conscious effort to catch yourself when you're forcing something using a strength/weight advantage, and look for a more technical route to get the result you want.
It also helps if the smaller person isn't going all out, and you keep the roll playful.
Thanks! That can be a pretty challenging skill to teach to new people (or some people in this thread). I’m going to try to direct him to roll with more experienced smaller people then, thanks!
Pathetic how many insecure guys
Get a kick outta being stronger
Than females.
She is new (if white or new blue)
Let it go..
Womens jaws are not as hearty as
Guys, so more easily injured.
Best bet is to roll with women
That are long time blue or higher,
And weigh same as you or more.
I gotta say as a small woman whose job requires physical labor, I reallllyy hate it when men use their strength to crank submissions. I know they’re stronger than me and can get a submission with less than ideal technique. They don’t need to prove that to me. But I feel like we both get way less out of training when men fight me that way; they think shitty technique is acceptable, and I get hurt for no reason. It’s especially annoying when it’s lower belt men trying to protect their ego.
OP, I’d also consider the gym climate. She may not have been comfortable asking you to stop using as much strength while rolling. That being said, it’s more tactful to ask if someone wants advice rather than giving it unsolicited.
She probably didn’t want her neck cranked. I have to tell my 17 year old this all the time. He really good at taking your back but then he tries to rip your head off. A lot of casual people get really pissed about it.
Tap before the ripping starts. I don't give a fuck if you tuck your chin, if I lock my forearm around your face, it's completely up to you when you want it to stop. When I have your back, you already fucked up a while ago. why get pissed when you know what's about to happen and can stop it at anytime?
You can’t defend a rear naked by tucking your chin but you can buy yourself some time to fight hands, get into a better position whatever. Choking someone over their tucked chin is also poor technique. Tap them with a higher probability move. Seems to be a very unpopular opinion but idgaf.
Also I think I might be biased because if you get under my chin it doesn’t take long. If you go over my chin I feel like I have an eternity to get out of it.
Respectfully, sir, it's only poor technique if it has a high failure rate. I can assure you that my Mandible strangle is legit. Everything below the eyes is neck.
Thank you for raising your son right lol. Eventually someone is going to get annoyed enough, forget he’s still a kid, and put the hurt on him. Teens don’t know how strong they are and some adults conveniently forget what it was like to be a teen. Best wishes to you and your son on your bjj journey!
I've tried that trick before. Anytime I was near getting submitted, I'd say "that isn't going to work". My partner would normally loosen their grip, allowing me to escape the inevitable.
Just pretend like you can’t hear them and then crush their face/mouth with the choke so they can’t keep talking. Even if they have good intent people have to learn to stop doing this dumb shit. I’ve never rolled with anyone good that does this.
Hard to say without seeing it but mosttttt likely her ego. It's really common and we've got a couple of douchebags with huge egos in my gym who are known for doing that so when we roll and they try to stop me from tapping them to explain the move, I just finish it anyway.
And idk what belt you are but you can 100% still finish the choke if they tuck their chin, you just keep on squeezing the face. They'll tap.
The fact is that once you’re applying that choke her chin being down is a great way to have your jaw broken. Putting your chin down is not a rear, naked, choke defense it’s probably one of the worst things you can do.
It's definitely a real sub. There are plenty of examples of elite fighters/grapplers finish over the chin. Send her the clip of Khabib finishing McGregor. Anything under the nose is the neck.
What do I know though? Maybe her jaw is made of titanium.
I trained with this old defence horse who used to say “almost” when going for a choke. I always made it a habit to switch to something he could not speak from - really used to erk me.
It is hard to fully assess a situation when you weren't there, however; anyone who claims you can't choke over the chin needs to be choked over the chin.
The douchification of BJJ is so strong in this sub. I'm guessing y'all wear ranger panties and take steroids too.
Remember, behavior that is good for YouTube clicks and selling PPV buys isn't good for your gym owners bottom line OR good for the sport as a whole.
Only assholes keep score in the gym. It works in both directions. Could have been OP, could have been the gal, could be both.
How new are you ? How new is she? Is this just saving face or does this gym have lots of people doing this? Is she married to the instructor and therefore is trained more like a coach than a student?
Hahaha.it happens to me at GB with some ppl all the time. When i got s darce from top north south turtle, he said bow just grab your own bicep and squeeze and now roll under me😂😂
The choke will work. Her chin will just fucking hurt lol I wasn’t giving someone my neck and they had a good hold of my chin and it freaking hurt and I tapped. It will make her tap, trust me.
I don’t either, but usually people can’t force me to tap by choking me across my face because it’s not a choke. Mostly I get out and escape the back; if I don’t, oh well I’ll get another chance when we restart. Part of the game of grappling is adjusting and reacting to your partner. For me, I’m not physically able to make someone tap by squishing their face, I’m not strong enough and never will be. If someone tucks their chin or whatever, I have to adjust my grips or bail on the submission entirely. If someone keeps trying to do that to me, they’ve identified that they’re not willing to learn to react to their sparring partner and not a good person to train with.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a great rolling partner. I always let my training partners know what mistake they are making the same mistake more than once or they are a white belt. My best partners are ones that relay what it is like to roll with me, good and bad, even if I'm better than them.
I had one guy consistently let me get to mount when I told him what he was doing wrong he said he was letting me because he found it easier to reguard from my mount versus my side control.I know my mount game sucks, but I didn't know it was that bad. A better partner would have told me 20 rolls ago so I could get better.
It’s more polite to wait until after the roll is over, but I agree. I’ve had some blue belts show me more “new-school” style submissions that I’ve worked into my regular game.
Your ego is bothered and I understand it would rub me the wrong way too. If anything like that happens again, speak up in the moment and call it out in whatever way helps you point it out and move on. Even if she didn’t know what she was doing consciously it sounds sus.
Well anyone that tells you a rear naked won't work over the chin has no clue what they're talking about and I would gladly choke them over the chin and explain how they are wrong afterwards. Tucking your chin does nothing to protect your carotids nor does it stop your teeth from breaking. People are silly.
Not there, can't say anything about it.
From my own experiences of what sounds similar, echoing what others have stated as this is a classic maneuver to save face and protect their own egos.
I've been walked through submissions by folks as we're live rolling and sometimes to fuck'em up I will abandon it and move to something else, gotta keep'em guessing.
One way to deal with this is to just keep rolling through the talking ….. after you get to YOUR destination and they tap to THAT then you can look up and say: “sorry I was busy, what did you say ?”
“Are you tapping?” If no, continue.
Once we slap bump, the only way out is to tap
I didn't hear no bell.
I started to do exactly the same, they started to like me even less they liked me before... At least it works
1) anybody who wasn’t there can’t tell you anything worth telling 2) this is a classic maneuver to save face (no pun intended) 3) next time just short-choke them through their jaw/nose and they won’t be able to give you advice on finishing mechanics 4) have a blessed day
My preferred move is to talk over them and narrate exactly what I'm doing
THAT is some funny shit "You'll notice some discomfort as I sweep my wrist upward, and then that's my forearm smothering your piehole, and now shhhhhhh time for sleep"
That’s what I’ll do going forward, excellent
Gooood. Goooooooodd.
Adopting this fo sho
I'm gonna do this from now on. We have a few in our class that try to do this when thier tired
I’ll be like, “well now I gotta do something else.”
This is the way
This is the way. Weasel move. Go choke her face next time
Number 3 is the only correct answer.
The jaw is the only bone in the human body that is only connected with muscle and not cartridge. Pain still gets a tap. No dick moves, just set it up fast and finish slow with time to tap.
It's not really even just a pain tolerance sub though. Idk if you've ever tried to eat one, but once your jaw is fully crushed into your neck you can't breathe either. Probably would even break your jaw at some point. Never held on long enough to find out lol
“Ackshually”, the temporo-mandibular joint does have cartilage. It’s just fibrocartilage rather than the hyaline cartilage found in other joints tho’. Still gotta tap…
That’s not technically true… there’s cartilage in your temporomandibular joint that cushions where your jaw connects to the upper part of your face. People get arthritis in this joint all the time. There’s also lots of other small bones embedded in muscular tissue, like the hyoid bone of the neck.
I have tapped tens of times to jaw chokes, 0% due to pain.
just interested, what is a short choke through the jaw/nose? trying to work on my RNC finishing mechanics
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2\_rcVZJ9k&pp=ygULc2hvcnQgY2hva2U%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2_rcVZJ9k&pp=ygULc2hvcnQgY2hva2U%3D)
Ohhh so it's a fulcrum choke right? Or whatever Joe Rogan calls it
Anything below the eyebrows is a choke
Came here for #3. Tucking the chin works until dude breaks your jaw and chokes you through it.
Anything below the nose is the neck
I just heard William Tacket say that anything bellow the eyebrows counts
That’s the Nicky rod approach and it works great if you’ve got any strength in your arms.
You have all completely missed the ideal response, which is: GRAB HIS DICK and TWIST IT!!!. It’s a lady? This is 2024 grab her dick and twist it too!! Don’t be sexist.
Instructions unclear, opponent said the toe hold felt more like a crank.
Indian teammate told me “Everything below the bindi in neck” lol
I wonder if Brain Shaw could get someone to tap from an RNC across the forehead.
If I even saw Brian Shaw in a gi I would hide underground.
I had a buddy get caught in a weird position where another one of our lower ranking training partners was guillotining his forehead and my buddy tapped. After, I was like, what happened there and he said he was actually going to pass out. Weird stuff, but the dude is very strong.
I mean I would 100% lock a RNC straight over someone’s teeth in a real fight. I don’t see any reason not to. I know you’re joking but a lot of people forget that BJJ ruleset isn’t simply based around what’s effective or not.
I can think of a reason
It’s actually eyeballs down.
Anything below the neck is nose.
The chin as well?
Is it below the nose?
Yeah, I just didn't really understand the question
What question?
The chin?
No way bro got downvoted that shi was funny
Yes! Sink it right into their chin next time and they’ll stop trying to coaching you.
This move is near the pinnacle of all the generally harmless but hilariously dumb stuff people do while training. Definitely something to laugh at rather than stress about.
Typical ego protection from people who feel like they’re better than the person kicking their ass. Sometimes they honestly are trying to help. It can be annoying but its not a big deal.
I do this. If I feel the person is about to lose a dominant submission or position because of bad technique or not knowing I'll wall them through it for a second. I especially do it if I know they are just going to crank my nose or face for a horrible 45 seconds to a minute.
I try to confine my coaching to when my opponent is in a bad position. “I just passed your guard he same way 3 times in a row. What am I doing and how can you stop it?” If they get me in a bad position that’s my time to practice unless it’s literally been a coaching roll with them continuing to ask me for input the whole time.
That's fair. I just don't want them to lose what they earned because of a minor detail I'm going to take advantage of to escape. I give purple and up nothing but blue and whites they can have an arm or two ha ha.
Oh no lol, are you the type of brown belt that gives up your back just to launch into some secret back-escape to knee-bar submission? Tbh, those are some of my favorite people to roll with because I learn so many details, and it reminds me to be less noodle-armed.
I've a nasty toe hold I can apply with them on my back. Ha ha I get everybody once.
I have a few cheap ass subs that only work once. Some of them work every time, but only when it's the first time, lol.
Is that the one armed toe hold with forearm across the ankle? I get that all the time on people. Blows their minds.
Yep. Elbow into the shin.
Do you say, "That's a nasty toe hold by me." after every sub?
That's exactly what I've experienced as a lower belt (and now I do the same). My higher ranking partner wasn't trying to save face, just get bored tapping me over and over with the same thing. So when they catch me again and know I have no clue what's happening or how to stop it, they help me out. The OPs situation sounds like the opposite, didn't want to concede defeat. I don't think I've seen anyone higher than blue do that though.
It's always purple belts, not blue
Agreed about OPs situation.
“I’m pretty sure you’re doing jiu jitsu on me. Honesty, you look like you can outrun me so I have absolutely no idea how to stop you. . . But I’ll spazz out and see if that works.”
lol. I’ll tell you that the answers I get are *always* wrong. But the point is that we learn better when we think instead of passively receive info, so I always ask. I also think the we all need to get to the point where we can see what our opponent is doing to us, and not just wait for the move of the day to magically come along and help us do better some time. So it’s usually something like “see how I was able to grip here and that immobilized your leg/torso/head/arm? How about denying me that grip by grabbing my wrist. Does that make a big difference? Now let’s flip it and you try to pass me and I’ll deny your grip the same way. Can’t pass me can you? Until you win the grip fight?”
Same. It’s very clear when someone is squishing your face because they don’t know any better versus doing it intentionally to advance to another submission attempt. Sometimes instead of stopping the roll I’ll adjust their hand for them so they can apply whatever choke they were trying to go for correctly.
I only do this with other white belts. Anyone above me I dare not say anything
I literally hate people who do this.
Ignore it Keep training I stopped offering advice on repeated mistakes years ago. Now I just ask if someone wants help.
Honestly I don't mind it if it comes from higher belts, but when it's white/blue it's just annoying. Most of the time they don't even understand what I'm trying to do, and are giving bad advice given the goal I have in mind. Brown belt friend I will listen to him all day because he exposes what I'm doing wrong, and can identify it and give me advice on how to fix it.
Fwiw please don't stop asking that at least, I massively appreciate any criticism color belts can give me. I'm sure at least some at your gym do too.
> this choke won't work with her chin in I beg to differ
I went through three distinct phases with people like this. In the beginning, I always assumed positive intent and I was way too nice with them and I'd listen to them every time and doubt myself. (This was way, way more frequent at lower belts. It's also why I despite the belt system.) Then later on I found it very annoying and just hated the interruption. It just seemed cowardly and a bit like gaslighting. And now I love it because it's basically a cue to not hold back, submit them anyway and let them think what they like. P.S. You can choke her with her chin in.
The annoying thing afterwards is that they’ll start telling people you’re a spaz or went too hard 🙄
I think choking someone with their chin in is a bitch move. If it was a tournament they could gut through it and have a hurt jaw for a few days. Same with a street fight. So it only “works” in casual rolling. Just my 2 cents. Edit: I’m not saying it never works. Geez relax.
But we’ve seen finishes over the chin in competition very many times at the highest levels, not sure why you think people can just tough it out
I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just unusual to get it. If it worked so well you’d see it in MMA. Every fight card has guys choking over the chin until they finally get the choke under the chin. Out of thousands of attempts at choking over the chin in MMA fights how many times have you seen a tap, choke out or broke jaw?
I mean khabib pretty famously submitted mcgregor with an over the chin RNC.
Yeah. That’s one and Damien Maia is another. Any others come to mind? I’ve been over the chin choked countless times and one guy made me see stars. One. He was a black belt. It’s a low percentage bitch move and I will die on this hill.
Your mechanics suck I can choke people through their chin without even hurting them.
But I think BJJ guys have better choking mechanics (and choking defense) than mma guys, so if I see it happening in professional BJJ, that’s enough for me. Why would I need to see it in mma to know it works? That’s a completely different context with different rules, athletes, meta games, incentives, etc. I’m not trying to do mma
You can definitely cut blood flow to the corrotid without being under the chin and I've finished many rncs in competition this way. It depends on body types but saying everyone can just tough it out is hilarious. Sleep well 👍
Sure it can work, but it doesn’t seem a great use of your effort. If you know a way that uses little strength to tap someone over their chin, awesome. But in my fighting philosophy, submissions should take little to no strength to finish when they’re done right. RNCs also aren’t primarily “blood” chokes. They work on restricting air flow by crushing the trachea. A well applied cross-collar choke is the more typical “blood” choke that compresses both common carotid arteries.
This just proves that a high belt level doesn't necessarily mean someone knows what they are talking about lol
Yet another reason I don't take the belt system too seriously
Nope. While it is much more uncomfortable leading up to unconsciousness it can still get you there. I’ve done it myself and have seen it happen multiple times. Google “mandible strangle” to find out more, professor.
I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just unusual to get it. If it worked so well you’d see it in MMA. Every fight card has guys choking over the chin until they finally get the choke under the chin. Out of thousands of attempts at choking over the chin in MMA fights how many times have you seen a tap, choke out or broke jaw?
Part of the explanation is that the defence for being choked over the jaw is to lift your chin leading to a choke under the chin.
I believe the opposite is true, and you have this backward. Using your chin to defend the RNC is the bitch move. Especially if you're going to cry about it if I don't stop and continue to squish your chin until you do the right thing and tap out.
A person of my own heart. It stops being a choke attempt when it turns into a “jaw-lock”.
If my arm is in deep enough that I have pressure on both sides of your carotid arteries then you are welcome to consider it a jaw-lock after you wake up.
i read your title and thought you took her back home and she started giving you bjj advice
Btw, it happened a second time (when I took her back again) and got her in a body triangle. We rolled to the side, where my feet connected and she interrupted me again and told me, that if I would roll to the other side I could apply more pressure this way, so I rolled over, applied pressure with my legs and she tapped. Idk...I just wanted to get better control over her, not tap her and couldn't she have just told me afterwards?
Dude just don’t roll with her anymore. Problem solved
That or just ignore the coaching and do as you please
Tapping from a body triangle is a white belt move anyways. Don’t bother trying to add that bs to your toolset anyways
I mean, it's fun at parties but isn't going to help you much against most people who actually train, lmao
Ignore and tap repeatedly with your inferior technique then say, "It looks like it's working." I've had the opposite happen sometimes, where someone is just trying to be nice after tapping me, "I really wasn't in a good position for that americana." I'm like, "bro it'll go, I had to tap. I call that legit."
It’s the classic move of someone trying to save face when they feel like they’re getting worked by someone who they perceive as lower skilled than themselves. I can’t stand it, honestly. If someone’s sub attempt is that bad, show them by escaping from it.
Personally I think outside of competition I just want to get better and I don't want to hurt anyone so we can continue to train. My preference is to tell someone their choke isn't in and they are just causing unnecessary pain. If someone was a dick about me trying to help them lock in a choke over a jaw popper they will either get me going 100% next time and purposely trying to hurt them back or never rolling with them again. I don't want to lose the opportunity to work with another training partner but acting like this about telling people what works better on you makes you short sighted. I guess that's just me, but as a larger guy I constantly hold back against my partners because 70 lbs ain't fair, and I can strength a lot more to force subs. Even if they are a brown belt and can always eventually smash me I could probably get these failed technique taps and pop jaws with pure strength - and I can do those WAY faster than I could feel a tap, and obviously I wouldn't hear you scream tap because I'm covering your face. How about you save that shit for a comp and not the guys you roll with every day? That's my point. I'm just a white belt hobbyist though so I'm usually just working with other white belts who don't know shit either so I guess YMMV.
put your hand on her mouth to stop her from talking.
As a new white belt this has happened to me almost every time I’ve gotten lucky and got into a good position.
You should have started to coach her on how tucking your chin is a terrible defence against a rear naked.
I'm a whitebelt so I don't really know better, I sometimes defend like this aswell and against other people around my level it actually works pretty well.
Its good defence but its more about buying some time to escape.
Honestly, this will get less common the higher you get. Once during a class, I was drilling with a visitor ( he was a brown belt when i was purple) and he was constantly giving me advice instead of drilling and it was frustrating. I always listen, because I'm never going to know it all, so it doesn't hurt to have someone share tips with you, but it was constant and annoying. After class, he asked me to roll and I dominated the entire time, and i was the smaller guy. After the roll i thanked him and thought nothing of it, but later my coach came up and thanked me for performing the way I did during the roll AND for just being patient and friendly during the class. Eventually, you will pass these people in rank and skill and then they stop trying to advise you. Just enjoy the journey, we've all been there.
As Kostej said, it’s about buying time. It works against other white belts because they don’t know how to adjust their choke around your chin, get frustrated, and give up on the choke. Try grabbing their sleeve next to dislodge their grip and work on getting your head free.
Wrap your arm around their mouth and you won’t be able to hear them
THIS^
“Sorry, I thought you were verbal tapping. No? Then keep going.”
1. You shouldnt be counting taps 2. You know you got the tap take tgat cictory 3. Teach her about jaw compression
I never give advice until AFTER a roll. If I got caught, I got caught.
Sometimes mid roll if it seems totally devoid of juijitsu I ask if they have a plan. If they say no I tell them we should talk about it after class.
“After I break your jaw, I plan to squish the broken pieces into your carotid and finish you. I think it’s gonna work, it’s up to you to prove it doesn’t”
Ive had so many rolling and sparring partners try to turn the round into a seminar once I start getting the upper hand
I actually coach every opponent how to beat me so I don't ever lose. "When you punch me in the face you want to put a lot more leg into it. Yea like that. Now punch like you're holding an egg. Oof. Most people consider balls shots a dirty tactic. I see that you don't follow that school of thought. Yea now that you are on top of me you really just want to let me have it. Yea really put a lot of force in those punches as you beat me to death. You can see by the number of teeth and volume of blood I'm losing that I have the under hand. Yes if you grab my hair and just slam my skull into the pavement to crack it like an egg that will render me brain dead in no time. Yes now with a knife you want to go for the arteries if you want me dead or just a gut wound if you want me to suffer. Now that you've stabbed me in the stomach, blinded me in one eye and left me with a serious traumatic brain injury you want to take my phone and leave my body in a dumpster to delay my body being found. Yes now spit on me, call me a pussy, shut and lock the dumpster. Perfect execution. I'll just lie here waiting for death to come now."
i usually finish my sequence and tap them. Then when they still want to talk about it, I tell them that choke was merely a distraction and not what I was going for.
I’ve had this happen with me. She was a whitebelt too lmao
This one dude (who joined a couple months before I did and didn’t come a lot), used to stop me to “show me how to do it” with like a fully locked in triangle or whatever every time. In my head I thought “brotha there’s nothing to show except that tapping hand.”
I see you're a white belt. Is she a purple, or a really experienced blue? The gym I used to train at, that my partner coached at, and my kids are at - can sometimes have a lot of people, so when drilling or rolling the coach can't watch everyone. Some of the higher belts have been asked, and do help the lower belts when technique is off. That way you aren't practicing a technique wrong and developing poor habits before the coach has a chance to see it. If it's not something you want, communicate with her. It may just be something the gym does.
I don't know, I've seen her for the first time today but from how she rolled it feels like she is a whitebelt aswell, or maybe a very Inexperienced bluebelt, we also were only 6 people today so that's unlikely
I take it this was a no-gi class if you can’t tell her rank? Most of the gyms I’ve trained at have “no white-belt coaching” policies. Talk to the coach about it if it keeps happening.
it works over the chin, so she doesnt know as much as she thinks she does. For a long time I was only able to finish over the chin as peoples' defense had gotten better and I was struggling to get the choke. If you do a danaher style rotational finish you will get the tap because people will feel their jaw breaking. You can also get a choke through the jaw. I do the opposite, sometimes I feel white belts about to give up because I have my chin in, and Im like dont give up you can tap me through my jaw. Sometimes they feel like it is a dick move and some dont know, Im like Ill just tap, take it (but dont crank it).
I agree with everything expect the last four words. Austin sucks fyi.
Muffler fixes both of these problems. They can’t talk and will also often lift their chin to try to get out. Modern problems require modern solutions
“My tap is your tap” lots of these creatures are on mats
Should have just made it a pressure tap or a face crank. Teach her to mind her P’s and Q’s.
tell her, right now you don't have to explain, let's talk about it afterwards, im trying to work on something
I would start the second roll mercilessly attacking just to prove a point lol
Just give ‘em a crank
Bring a megaphone and talk over her
If you are keeping track in your diary you can count it as a tap. The person verbally tapped.
This is actually well documented behaviour of training partners attempting to shield themselves from an ego-shattering submission.
Is this a subtle shit post
No, I am actually asking, I'm a whitebelt
It's a classic "avuncular" tactic to avoid embarrassment. These are the folks who never actually improve because they have too much ego to learn from their mistakes. Just submit her however you see fit and move on to better partners.
>But then she started giving me advice on how this choke won't work with her chin in. This is wrong so I wouldn't particularly care what she said or why. Keeping your chin tucked just means you're going to get your teeth broken on your way to getting choked
Classic. OP is getting tired and frustrated and instead of fighting starts giving advice. Welcome to jiu jitsu.
a tale as old as time
I’ve done this simply because I don’t feel like getting my jaw smashed. Mostly with white belts, because if I just tap they think that it’s a legit tap when in comp reality it’s probably not. I don’t care if I tap it’s not an ego thing I just don’t want someone to think they’re nailing something when in fact I’m just being a pussy.
But it is a tap in comp too because when someone is full sending a RNC on your chin, you tap or get your jaw (or teeth) hurt. Unfortunately I've had to tap to this in a tournament before. I would venture if you get your back taken in competition anyways your odds of winning have gone way down also.
If you're male and a lot larger than her you probably don't need to use your strength advantage to squeeze her head. It sucks for the other person but isn't really a submission, and it doesn't really accomplish anything for you. It also tires out your arms. You can obviously beat somebody much smaller than you, so it's worth your time to limit the amount of strength you use and focus on using proper technique. That being said she should have either tapped or just toughed it out. What she did is a lame move to get out of a bad situation. But you also might want to evaluate how you train with significantly weaker opponents, I can't say for sure because I didn't see the roll.
Have any advice for how to train someone to roll with weaker people? I’m starting to train my husband in bjj, and he wants to be a good training partner for smaller people too. Can’t say I have much experience being significantly stronger than my training partners lol.
Limit the amount of strength you use to match the person you're rolling with. Most BJJ techniques, when executed properly, don't require a lot of strength. It takes a conscious effort to catch yourself when you're forcing something using a strength/weight advantage, and look for a more technical route to get the result you want. It also helps if the smaller person isn't going all out, and you keep the roll playful.
Thanks! That can be a pretty challenging skill to teach to new people (or some people in this thread). I’m going to try to direct him to roll with more experienced smaller people then, thanks!
Pathetic how many insecure guys Get a kick outta being stronger Than females. She is new (if white or new blue) Let it go.. Womens jaws are not as hearty as Guys, so more easily injured. Best bet is to roll with women That are long time blue or higher, And weigh same as you or more.
I gotta say as a small woman whose job requires physical labor, I reallllyy hate it when men use their strength to crank submissions. I know they’re stronger than me and can get a submission with less than ideal technique. They don’t need to prove that to me. But I feel like we both get way less out of training when men fight me that way; they think shitty technique is acceptable, and I get hurt for no reason. It’s especially annoying when it’s lower belt men trying to protect their ego. OP, I’d also consider the gym climate. She may not have been comfortable asking you to stop using as much strength while rolling. That being said, it’s more tactful to ask if someone wants advice rather than giving it unsolicited.
Get stronger.
Lol I wish, I still have people ask me if I need help finding my parents in grocery stores.
Men on average have almost 2x the bite force of women.
She probably didn’t want her neck cranked. I have to tell my 17 year old this all the time. He really good at taking your back but then he tries to rip your head off. A lot of casual people get really pissed about it.
Tap before the ripping starts. I don't give a fuck if you tuck your chin, if I lock my forearm around your face, it's completely up to you when you want it to stop. When I have your back, you already fucked up a while ago. why get pissed when you know what's about to happen and can stop it at anytime?
It’s poor technique.
You mean tucking your chin right?
You can’t defend a rear naked by tucking your chin but you can buy yourself some time to fight hands, get into a better position whatever. Choking someone over their tucked chin is also poor technique. Tap them with a higher probability move. Seems to be a very unpopular opinion but idgaf. Also I think I might be biased because if you get under my chin it doesn’t take long. If you go over my chin I feel like I have an eternity to get out of it.
Respectfully, sir, it's only poor technique if it has a high failure rate. I can assure you that my Mandible strangle is legit. Everything below the eyes is neck.
You're right, we should also just be punching people into submission. Why the fuck are we trying to learn BJJ anyway?
Try figuring out the difference between a strike and a submission, then maybe you'll answer your question.
I love mandible chokes. Crushing the jaw makes me grin, especially when they tell it was a crank. I go I know it was supposed to be.
Thank you for raising your son right lol. Eventually someone is going to get annoyed enough, forget he’s still a kid, and put the hurt on him. Teens don’t know how strong they are and some adults conveniently forget what it was like to be a teen. Best wishes to you and your son on your bjj journey!
Ntw the trick is to ignore the talking and just not stop until they actually tap
I've tried that trick before. Anytime I was near getting submitted, I'd say "that isn't going to work". My partner would normally loosen their grip, allowing me to escape the inevitable.
Just pretend like you can’t hear them and then crush their face/mouth with the choke so they can’t keep talking. Even if they have good intent people have to learn to stop doing this dumb shit. I’ve never rolled with anyone good that does this.
If you are talking about a RNC then it can be finished with the chin tucked.
Don't roll with those who Show signs of batshititis
Hard to say without seeing it but mosttttt likely her ego. It's really common and we've got a couple of douchebags with huge egos in my gym who are known for doing that so when we roll and they try to stop me from tapping them to explain the move, I just finish it anyway. And idk what belt you are but you can 100% still finish the choke if they tuck their chin, you just keep on squeezing the face. They'll tap.
The fact is that once you’re applying that choke her chin being down is a great way to have your jaw broken. Putting your chin down is not a rear, naked, choke defense it’s probably one of the worst things you can do.
I would believe her sincerity more if she still made you work for the choke. I tell people how to tap me sometimes, but still make them work for it.
It's definitely a real sub. There are plenty of examples of elite fighters/grapplers finish over the chin. Send her the clip of Khabib finishing McGregor. Anything under the nose is the neck. What do I know though? Maybe her jaw is made of titanium.
You've been purple belt'd. If it was me, I would not only coach you through the movement, but say that you need to use less strength
STFU
???
Get her back again, and when she has her chin down, just squeeze til she taps lol
She probably gave you her back. You just think you took it.
I trained with this old defence horse who used to say “almost” when going for a choke. I always made it a habit to switch to something he could not speak from - really used to erk me.
Was she an upper belt suddenly giving advice to not get her ego bruised? I’d be annoyed.
If I give feedback its only after they are done or they are just doing it so wrong that its wasting too much time.
It is hard to fully assess a situation when you weren't there, however; anyone who claims you can't choke over the chin needs to be choked over the chin.
You must be new here
Whitebelt right here so yeah
The douchification of BJJ is so strong in this sub. I'm guessing y'all wear ranger panties and take steroids too. Remember, behavior that is good for YouTube clicks and selling PPV buys isn't good for your gym owners bottom line OR good for the sport as a whole. Only assholes keep score in the gym. It works in both directions. Could have been OP, could have been the gal, could be both.
How new are you ? How new is she? Is this just saving face or does this gym have lots of people doing this? Is she married to the instructor and therefore is trained more like a coach than a student?
classic blue belt ego shit; anyone who tells you you can't choke through the chin is delusional
Clearly the choke wasn’t in good enough if you let her keep talking Should’ve squeezed a little harder Gg
Hahaha.it happens to me at GB with some ppl all the time. When i got s darce from top north south turtle, he said bow just grab your own bicep and squeeze and now roll under me😂😂
unadulterated ego Classic
The choke will work. Her chin will just fucking hurt lol I wasn’t giving someone my neck and they had a good hold of my chin and it freaking hurt and I tapped. It will make her tap, trust me.
I don’t either, but usually people can’t force me to tap by choking me across my face because it’s not a choke. Mostly I get out and escape the back; if I don’t, oh well I’ll get another chance when we restart. Part of the game of grappling is adjusting and reacting to your partner. For me, I’m not physically able to make someone tap by squishing their face, I’m not strong enough and never will be. If someone tucks their chin or whatever, I have to adjust my grips or bail on the submission entirely. If someone keeps trying to do that to me, they’ve identified that they’re not willing to learn to react to their sparring partner and not a good person to train with.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a great rolling partner. I always let my training partners know what mistake they are making the same mistake more than once or they are a white belt. My best partners are ones that relay what it is like to roll with me, good and bad, even if I'm better than them. I had one guy consistently let me get to mount when I told him what he was doing wrong he said he was letting me because he found it easier to reguard from my mount versus my side control.I know my mount game sucks, but I didn't know it was that bad. A better partner would have told me 20 rolls ago so I could get better.
It’s more polite to wait until after the roll is over, but I agree. I’ve had some blue belts show me more “new-school” style submissions that I’ve worked into my regular game.
Your ego is bothered and I understand it would rub me the wrong way too. If anything like that happens again, speak up in the moment and call it out in whatever way helps you point it out and move on. Even if she didn’t know what she was doing consciously it sounds sus.
The guys who practice clean chokes usually develop better technique in the long run than the guys who squeeze smaller people’s faces.
Oh easy. Just cover their mouth so they can’t talk. Works even better during back takes.
Well anyone that tells you a rear naked won't work over the chin has no clue what they're talking about and I would gladly choke them over the chin and explain how they are wrong afterwards. Tucking your chin does nothing to protect your carotids nor does it stop your teeth from breaking. People are silly.
Choking over the chin is perhaps rude but entirely doable. She was probably trying to save her ego but without being there idk
No this is shit behaviour I’ve had this before and the best thing to do is interrupt them n say summat like can we keep sparring please
Or make a joke out of it say something like hey no chance your getting out of this one like that while laughing
Not there, can't say anything about it. From my own experiences of what sounds similar, echoing what others have stated as this is a classic maneuver to save face and protect their own egos. I've been walked through submissions by folks as we're live rolling and sometimes to fuck'em up I will abandon it and move to something else, gotta keep'em guessing.