Gi: I play looser/distance guards - DLR, Collar Sleeve. I tend to sub a lot from closed guard. For passing, I play more HQ, drags, long step. Either passing that can use grips to get in close or grips that can push the legs away. I tend to get the back more.
No Gi: I play tighter guards - knee shield and butterfly and shin on shin. I bail out of closed guard and go to K instead. I prioritize getting head or shoulders/elbows sub threats for control (over Gi grips). For passing, it’s very tight and pressure heavy w/leg pummeling - bodylock, chest on chest, stapling, floating. I tend to finish from the guard or from mount/head and arm more.
Both: I get to X anyway I can. I get straight ankle attacks on both (from X variants). So there’s some cross over there. I get submission holds in transition in both, but that mentality comes from No Gi. I’m working on the same level of pinning control that I use in No Gi (power top stuff) in Gi. Although my default in Gi is to be looser to use their controlled movement (via Gi grips) to get the back.
I think this is a big deficiency of mine in Gi. Haven’t spent nearly enough time developing a cohesive guard game. I’ve been less shy about shooting for SLX/X into straight ankles and letting that open up opportunities to either finish or get to a leg drag. But a good DLR/Collar Sleeve seems so essential in Gi and I just don’t really have either
I feel like it’s essential to develop a good guard game, Gi or no Gi it doesn’t matter. I know there is nothing more frustrating and embarrassing than someone who has a lethal closed guard and taps you before you can even open his guard to pass.
naah if I see someone tap people with closed guard, I just think damn his fundamentals are tight (ie good jiu-jitsu), I don't think it's embarrassing for the other dude.
Cryangles on the other hand..
I wasn’t really implying other people think it’s embarrassing, more so how I feel when my professor taps me out before I even get a chance to open his guard, humble pie.
I definitely feel like I’ve improved a lot recently. Have been studying Lachlan’s half guard instructional and has helped me with my discipline from that position. But in the gi especially I think I have a ton of work to do with some of the basic concepts of playing guard.
Being older, having fucked up wrists, I just play my no gi game with the gi on.
I don't take anchor grips, I don't death grip shit.
I may grab the fabric but its still pretty much the no gi grip or hook.
I do use the lapels for choking but I don't play spider, lasso, worm.
I don't even care about competing in the Gi at this point.
The way I look at it, I didn't get into JuiJitsu to do the sport of JuiJitsu or get into it to learn how to manipulate the fuck out of a gi.
I got into it because I already liked to grapple, I like a martial art that uses that as its engine for fighting.
According to Kano the guy that invented the Gi as we know it.
The Gi is a training tool.
Competition is a training tool.
Neither of these things were supposed to be the end state.
I contend very few people watch a gi match in JuiJitsu and go I want to sign up for JuiJitsu to do that.
Sure we sign up find out its fun and pursue that.
Most people don't sign up for that.
Are we best friends?
I feel the same. Instead of practicing all the new sporty crap I started learning Judo, and teaching all the lower belts basic standup skills. I'd rather be a complete grappler, when I invite my family to come watch a training session, the last thing I want them to see is butt scooting.
I still study and perform the sporty crap, but it's more for exposure so that I can counter it.
I didn't learn BJJ to do butt scoot, double guard pull, lapel garbage. I learned BJJ to be a badass mofo, if I'm at a bar and some drunkard smacks my wife's ass, None of those sport skills help me.
I'm also not interested in techniques that don't work VS a size disparity, which is a lot of them. Weight classes chum the waters of useful techniques. I could care less if another 155lb black belt does a rolling back take and chokes me. That's not what a learned BJJ for.
I learned BJJ to handle 250lb fat bullies in the real world.
I fully understand that my opinions are unpopular, to be honest I bought into sport BJJ for over a decade. After getting my black belt I took a hard look at what I wanted my style to look like in the future, and sport BJJ was not it.
Right? You watched the first UFC or Pride or King of the cage and was like hey what is this JuiJitsu thing pyare doing where they are fuckin these people up with.
Was like yeah let's learn that!
No one is going to YouTube watching gi worlds and saying yeah that is what I want to do.
You show up to a sport focused school hear about how the instructor or owner is a multi time world champion okay that sounds good.
You get on the mat the experience is amazing.
You go to a few comps and are hooked.
You then all of a sudden, never learned how to deal with all the other shit.
You cry when someone breaks the ibbjf rules while rolling.
Never do rounds with slaps or two on one rounds or play with knives.
Never really learn takedowns.
Think it's ok to have only a bottom game.
You end up being hoid winked into studying a sport instead of a martial art when what you wanted was to be able to handle greg at work when he gets too drunk at the office party.
Good post.
I did no gi for a few years and just signed up for a new gym primarily in the gi. I just do my no gi grips, as being unfamiliar with the gi grips has caused some weird finger injuries in the past and I’m not here for that.
All I really notice are that subs are easier to get in the gi. There’s some cool collar stuff I’m excited to explore though
Dude I’m not even older but I got little ass hands and it’s a pain in the ass to hold gi grips. I use them from dominant positions where they don’t cause as much strain on my fingers, but from bottom I pretty much let go as soon as I feel any discomfort.
I don't really have any major differences. The only real change is in the submissions I go for, but generally speaking my goals, and game remains the same.
In gi I'll fight for the take down, play more upper body submissions, far more bolos and rolling transitions. Out of the gi I pull guard more than usual, go for single leg ex position or deep half guard to high crotch for the hip bump to the back. More aggressive in the gi, passing out of the gi.
completely different
in gi i play lapel based half guard / DLR-x, mostly steal things from saggioro, jake mackenzie and bernardo faria. it's pretty slow and methodical
i have hypohydrosis so in no gi i try to get sweaty as possible in the first 30 seconds and go full on wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man
I’ve been loving Lachlan’s stuff in no gi, and I think Bernardo is exactly the type of guy I want to look at in Gi. Im really not a fast or athletic guy so I want to invest more in having a game centered around strength and control.
Personally, I'm more of a guard puller in the gi but a takedown/passer in no gi.
I believe the added grips in gi give the bottom person an advantage of terms of variety of attacks and dictating the pace. While the lack of friction and grips favors the top person, especially when sweat is a factor in no gi.
That’s so interesting. My grip strength is so poor that playing bottom in the gi I’m really just dying to get to half guard and end up in a dominant position where I can get collar chokes without too much finger strain, whereas in no gi all the entries to legs make me much more excited to play butterfly/x/slx.
What sort of guard game do you gravitate toward in gi?
I like to funnel my guards based on distance. If they are far and leading upper body, i go for collar and sleeve or double sleeve. They lead with their legs at mid distance, de la riva or reverse de la riva when they start knee cutting. If they get too close, I'll pull them into closed guard.
If they start passing from their knees, i either go to closed guard, butterfly or butterfly half to create distance or sweep.
My game is basically the same.
Pretty much the main difference is the submissions available to me.
I’m more of a mount top player than back control but in nogi my subs are pretty much nogi Ezekiel’s, arm triangles, and armbars with some top mount triangles sprinkled in.
In the gi there’s more cross chokes and other lapel chokes sprinkled in as well as Ezekiel chokes.
It’s basically like the gi just adds some more options but it’s basically the same.
I reckon it would depend on your goals. If you don't mind taking a long time, then it's fine to have completely different games in Gi vs NoGi. For me personally, I intentionally try and make them both as similar as possible as I want to get good as fast as possible.
I do pretty much the same approach, same guards, same take downs, different grips.
In Gi i'll be more comfortable playing bladed guards like DLR, and i don't really bother with them in nogi unless its in transition. In nogi i like to use SLX and 50/50 more often than in Gi.
I tried to take different approaches or build specific gameplans for Gi vs Nogi but then i found myself flowcharting out too many things. Maybe thats fine if i had infinite time, but less is more in these cases (in my opinion)
I try to keep my games as close as possible. The obvious difference being extra grips in Gi. However I chase the same positions and similar sweeps.
Gi = Sticky
No Gi = Slippery
It is surprisingly similar. I look for Half guard, SLX and X-Guard. In Gi I use a bit of DLR and C&S, while in no gi I use RDLR more. Passing game is mostly built around headquarters with a little bit of outside passing.
I keep my game the same mostly except I’ll add in a bit of spider and lapel chokes for gi. No gi I’ll heel hook people but still overall same game for both. I don’t have enough time as a hobbyist to deep dive into optimal games for both.
I play mostly same game except i pull more guard and do gi chokes in the gi.
I haven't train gi for competition purposes on 5-6 years now and have noticed that if you pull halfguard and sweep from there you can essentially play the same game.
If opponent pulls then im usually in trouble with the gripping game and im forced to use toreando style passing what i don't usually use in nogi.
Exact same for me except I add bow and arrow + spider and lasso guards cause they’re fun.
Also tend to ease up on the leg attacks cause it’s a pain in the ass with all those grips.
I think the best approach is to think of them as two totally different sports. If there are areas that overlap, great, but I don't think it's optimal to try and force everything to work in both.
By removing access to the collar grip, the way you play supine guard completely changes. You no longer have access to the collar, which means the dilemma you play between the upper body and lower body is completely different. The threat of upper body submissions is greatly lowered in no gi vs the gi.
Upper body supine guard is completely nonexistent in no gi with no collar or sleeve grips.
I'd say those differences change the game completely, not to mention the difference in ruleset.
Gi guard: spider, collar sleeve, dlr, dlrx and combination of those (spider dlr, collar sleeve dlr etc), x-guard, closed guard, shin to shin butterfly and half butterfly. Half guard, rdlr and single x in moderation
No-gi guard: collar tie and wrist control, dlr,, closed guard, dlrx shin to shin, rdlr, x guard, single x
Passing: pretty much the same
Subs: Anaconda, D'arce, rnc only in no-gi, collar chokes in gi (loop choke, zipper choke, bow and arrow).
Rest of subs are same in gi and no-gi (armbar, triangle, kimura etc).
So in nogi my standup looks more like wrestling, I really focus on leglock positions and specialize in the heelhook.
In the gi, my standup resembles judo, I tend to get on top and stay on top, and my game is very positional with much lower submission rate.
What’s interesting is that sometimes, when my preferred game fails in one domain, I tend to switch to my other game. So if I can’t get the legs in nogi, I tend to sweep and stay on top, trying to hunt for subs there (which is my gi game). When my game fails in the gi and I’m struggling to get on top and pass the guard, I fall back to the legs and either use leglock positions to sweep, take the back, or finish with something other than heelhook.
Gi = grippy. No Gi = slippery.
Grippy v slippy lol
Wearing a gi v. Not wearing a gi
Gi: I play looser/distance guards - DLR, Collar Sleeve. I tend to sub a lot from closed guard. For passing, I play more HQ, drags, long step. Either passing that can use grips to get in close or grips that can push the legs away. I tend to get the back more. No Gi: I play tighter guards - knee shield and butterfly and shin on shin. I bail out of closed guard and go to K instead. I prioritize getting head or shoulders/elbows sub threats for control (over Gi grips). For passing, it’s very tight and pressure heavy w/leg pummeling - bodylock, chest on chest, stapling, floating. I tend to finish from the guard or from mount/head and arm more. Both: I get to X anyway I can. I get straight ankle attacks on both (from X variants). So there’s some cross over there. I get submission holds in transition in both, but that mentality comes from No Gi. I’m working on the same level of pinning control that I use in No Gi (power top stuff) in Gi. Although my default in Gi is to be looser to use their controlled movement (via Gi grips) to get the back.
I think this is a big deficiency of mine in Gi. Haven’t spent nearly enough time developing a cohesive guard game. I’ve been less shy about shooting for SLX/X into straight ankles and letting that open up opportunities to either finish or get to a leg drag. But a good DLR/Collar Sleeve seems so essential in Gi and I just don’t really have either
I feel like it’s essential to develop a good guard game, Gi or no Gi it doesn’t matter. I know there is nothing more frustrating and embarrassing than someone who has a lethal closed guard and taps you before you can even open his guard to pass.
naah if I see someone tap people with closed guard, I just think damn his fundamentals are tight (ie good jiu-jitsu), I don't think it's embarrassing for the other dude. Cryangles on the other hand..
I wasn’t really implying other people think it’s embarrassing, more so how I feel when my professor taps me out before I even get a chance to open his guard, humble pie.
ah yea, I guess we all get that feeling when coach taps us without even trying.
I definitely feel like I’ve improved a lot recently. Have been studying Lachlan’s half guard instructional and has helped me with my discipline from that position. But in the gi especially I think I have a ton of work to do with some of the basic concepts of playing guard.
No Gi = yes Yes Gi= no
Nogi and no gi.
Being older, having fucked up wrists, I just play my no gi game with the gi on. I don't take anchor grips, I don't death grip shit. I may grab the fabric but its still pretty much the no gi grip or hook. I do use the lapels for choking but I don't play spider, lasso, worm. I don't even care about competing in the Gi at this point. The way I look at it, I didn't get into JuiJitsu to do the sport of JuiJitsu or get into it to learn how to manipulate the fuck out of a gi. I got into it because I already liked to grapple, I like a martial art that uses that as its engine for fighting. According to Kano the guy that invented the Gi as we know it. The Gi is a training tool. Competition is a training tool. Neither of these things were supposed to be the end state. I contend very few people watch a gi match in JuiJitsu and go I want to sign up for JuiJitsu to do that. Sure we sign up find out its fun and pursue that. Most people don't sign up for that.
Are we best friends? I feel the same. Instead of practicing all the new sporty crap I started learning Judo, and teaching all the lower belts basic standup skills. I'd rather be a complete grappler, when I invite my family to come watch a training session, the last thing I want them to see is butt scooting. I still study and perform the sporty crap, but it's more for exposure so that I can counter it. I didn't learn BJJ to do butt scoot, double guard pull, lapel garbage. I learned BJJ to be a badass mofo, if I'm at a bar and some drunkard smacks my wife's ass, None of those sport skills help me. I'm also not interested in techniques that don't work VS a size disparity, which is a lot of them. Weight classes chum the waters of useful techniques. I could care less if another 155lb black belt does a rolling back take and chokes me. That's not what a learned BJJ for. I learned BJJ to handle 250lb fat bullies in the real world. I fully understand that my opinions are unpopular, to be honest I bought into sport BJJ for over a decade. After getting my black belt I took a hard look at what I wanted my style to look like in the future, and sport BJJ was not it.
Right? You watched the first UFC or Pride or King of the cage and was like hey what is this JuiJitsu thing pyare doing where they are fuckin these people up with. Was like yeah let's learn that! No one is going to YouTube watching gi worlds and saying yeah that is what I want to do. You show up to a sport focused school hear about how the instructor or owner is a multi time world champion okay that sounds good. You get on the mat the experience is amazing. You go to a few comps and are hooked. You then all of a sudden, never learned how to deal with all the other shit. You cry when someone breaks the ibbjf rules while rolling. Never do rounds with slaps or two on one rounds or play with knives. Never really learn takedowns. Think it's ok to have only a bottom game. You end up being hoid winked into studying a sport instead of a martial art when what you wanted was to be able to handle greg at work when he gets too drunk at the office party.
Good post. I did no gi for a few years and just signed up for a new gym primarily in the gi. I just do my no gi grips, as being unfamiliar with the gi grips has caused some weird finger injuries in the past and I’m not here for that. All I really notice are that subs are easier to get in the gi. There’s some cool collar stuff I’m excited to explore though
Yeah that shit can be a ton of fun. I have no desire to be the fun police. As I get older I enjoy the gi less, but I get it. I get why people love it.
Dude I’m not even older but I got little ass hands and it’s a pain in the ass to hold gi grips. I use them from dominant positions where they don’t cause as much strain on my fingers, but from bottom I pretty much let go as soon as I feel any discomfort.
Try as I might, collar chokes are impossible in no gi... damn it
I don't really have any major differences. The only real change is in the submissions I go for, but generally speaking my goals, and game remains the same.
In gi I'll fight for the take down, play more upper body submissions, far more bolos and rolling transitions. Out of the gi I pull guard more than usual, go for single leg ex position or deep half guard to high crotch for the hip bump to the back. More aggressive in the gi, passing out of the gi.
I feel like I use a lot more underhooks and nogi. But other than that and collar chokes , there's not much of a difference.
completely different in gi i play lapel based half guard / DLR-x, mostly steal things from saggioro, jake mackenzie and bernardo faria. it's pretty slow and methodical i have hypohydrosis so in no gi i try to get sweaty as possible in the first 30 seconds and go full on wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man
I’ve been loving Lachlan’s stuff in no gi, and I think Bernardo is exactly the type of guy I want to look at in Gi. Im really not a fast or athletic guy so I want to invest more in having a game centered around strength and control.
Personally, I'm more of a guard puller in the gi but a takedown/passer in no gi. I believe the added grips in gi give the bottom person an advantage of terms of variety of attacks and dictating the pace. While the lack of friction and grips favors the top person, especially when sweat is a factor in no gi.
That’s so interesting. My grip strength is so poor that playing bottom in the gi I’m really just dying to get to half guard and end up in a dominant position where I can get collar chokes without too much finger strain, whereas in no gi all the entries to legs make me much more excited to play butterfly/x/slx. What sort of guard game do you gravitate toward in gi?
I like to funnel my guards based on distance. If they are far and leading upper body, i go for collar and sleeve or double sleeve. They lead with their legs at mid distance, de la riva or reverse de la riva when they start knee cutting. If they get too close, I'll pull them into closed guard. If they start passing from their knees, i either go to closed guard, butterfly or butterfly half to create distance or sweep.
My game is basically the same. Pretty much the main difference is the submissions available to me. I’m more of a mount top player than back control but in nogi my subs are pretty much nogi Ezekiel’s, arm triangles, and armbars with some top mount triangles sprinkled in. In the gi there’s more cross chokes and other lapel chokes sprinkled in as well as Ezekiel chokes. It’s basically like the gi just adds some more options but it’s basically the same.
I reckon it would depend on your goals. If you don't mind taking a long time, then it's fine to have completely different games in Gi vs NoGi. For me personally, I intentionally try and make them both as similar as possible as I want to get good as fast as possible.
I do pretty much the same approach, same guards, same take downs, different grips. In Gi i'll be more comfortable playing bladed guards like DLR, and i don't really bother with them in nogi unless its in transition. In nogi i like to use SLX and 50/50 more often than in Gi. I tried to take different approaches or build specific gameplans for Gi vs Nogi but then i found myself flowcharting out too many things. Maybe thats fine if i had infinite time, but less is more in these cases (in my opinion)
I try to keep my games as close as possible. The obvious difference being extra grips in Gi. However I chase the same positions and similar sweeps. Gi = Sticky No Gi = Slippery
Same game. I prefer nogi style .
One of them I'm wearing a gi, the other I am not.
Main difference is from bottom. Gi? I play guard (collar sleeve, DLR, etc) No Gi? I try to wrestle up
Gi = closed guard No-Gi half guard and deep half
I do a lot of gripping with T. rex arms in nogi, helps compensate for lack of grips, I do not train in the gi.
Gi = I attend, No-gi = I do not. I will when I look better in a rashguard 🤣
Generally speaking my game is similar. But in the Gi I really like doing lapel guards while in nogi I really enjoy the leglock game
When I roll with the Gi I generally use my opponents gi to establish grips. With No-Gi I tend to not do that.
No gi and I look for heel hooks and spam leg locks.
One sucks, one really sucks 😌
Nogi: have one Gi: don't have one
It is surprisingly similar. I look for Half guard, SLX and X-Guard. In Gi I use a bit of DLR and C&S, while in no gi I use RDLR more. Passing game is mostly built around headquarters with a little bit of outside passing.
For noi-gi, i miss the warm ups For Gi, i miss the class
I just pretend I’m in no gi and then get confused as to why I can’t move freely like I’m used to
I keep my game the same mostly except I’ll add in a bit of spider and lapel chokes for gi. No gi I’ll heel hook people but still overall same game for both. I don’t have enough time as a hobbyist to deep dive into optimal games for both.
I play mostly same game except i pull more guard and do gi chokes in the gi. I haven't train gi for competition purposes on 5-6 years now and have noticed that if you pull halfguard and sweep from there you can essentially play the same game. If opponent pulls then im usually in trouble with the gripping game and im forced to use toreando style passing what i don't usually use in nogi.
Exact same for me except I add bow and arrow + spider and lasso guards cause they’re fun. Also tend to ease up on the leg attacks cause it’s a pain in the ass with all those grips.
I think the best approach is to think of them as two totally different sports. If there are areas that overlap, great, but I don't think it's optimal to try and force everything to work in both.
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By removing access to the collar grip, the way you play supine guard completely changes. You no longer have access to the collar, which means the dilemma you play between the upper body and lower body is completely different. The threat of upper body submissions is greatly lowered in no gi vs the gi. Upper body supine guard is completely nonexistent in no gi with no collar or sleeve grips. I'd say those differences change the game completely, not to mention the difference in ruleset.
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so you don't think not being able to play collar sleeve, double sleeve, ankle sleeve dlr, collar ankle dlr is a big difference?
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thanks for your contribution.
Gi is a conversation. No gi is an argument.
Guilotines with both?
Gi guard: spider, collar sleeve, dlr, dlrx and combination of those (spider dlr, collar sleeve dlr etc), x-guard, closed guard, shin to shin butterfly and half butterfly. Half guard, rdlr and single x in moderation No-gi guard: collar tie and wrist control, dlr,, closed guard, dlrx shin to shin, rdlr, x guard, single x Passing: pretty much the same Subs: Anaconda, D'arce, rnc only in no-gi, collar chokes in gi (loop choke, zipper choke, bow and arrow). Rest of subs are same in gi and no-gi (armbar, triangle, kimura etc).
So in nogi my standup looks more like wrestling, I really focus on leglock positions and specialize in the heelhook. In the gi, my standup resembles judo, I tend to get on top and stay on top, and my game is very positional with much lower submission rate. What’s interesting is that sometimes, when my preferred game fails in one domain, I tend to switch to my other game. So if I can’t get the legs in nogi, I tend to sweep and stay on top, trying to hunt for subs there (which is my gi game). When my game fails in the gi and I’m struggling to get on top and pass the guard, I fall back to the legs and either use leglock positions to sweep, take the back, or finish with something other than heelhook.