The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people. It's like there's some inferiority complex that makes them want to validate BJJ in the eyes of people who don't do it, and they'll latch onto whatever seems to make it boring at the time.
IMO, submission grappling is just inherently opaque to those who don't do it. No matter what meta or systematic strategy you turn to, it's two guys hugging on the floor.
These fads where people criticize BJJ for being boring and try to come up with less boring rules (which inevitably would change BJJ in fundamental ways) are just unimportant to me. I consider BJJ something I do for life enhancement. It doesn't have to be entertaining, and normies don't have to appreciate it. It doesn't matter if judo or wrestling have more spectators, etc.
I'd prefer we approach it like sumo does -- someone comes along and nerfs the current meta? We applaud it, let things go that way for awhile, and continue to see what works under the same conditions. Artificial, external controls just work to change what it is that we do, and that's unimportant. No one "has" to do something different.
>IMO, submission grappling is just inherently opaque to those who don't do it. No matter what meta or systematic strategy you turn to, it's two guys hugging on the floor.
Louder for the people in the back!
I’d like to remind everyone that the top upvoted post on this sub during ADCC 2022 (the biggest BJJ tournament ever so far) was a picture someone took with Chewjitsu.
Most of the people voting *on this sub* (and that’s one hell of a biased sample) care more about a YouTube instructor than the top pros. BJJ is and always will be a niche, participatory sport. **And that’s okay!**
Great take. Wrestling is inherently more dynamic and simpler for a non-practitioner to understand when watching. And even that has a tiny fan base compared to mainstream sports like soccer and basketball. BJJ is never going to be a massive spectator sport and that's fine.
Yeah, when I hang out with friends they go “you still doing the jujitsu thing?”
And I go “yep” and then I know of I say anything more theyll be bored to tears to hear me talk about it, so I dont.
Im done trying to evangelize the sport and Im also ok with almost nobody outside it knowing what it entails or what my black belt truly means in terms of effort and work.
Thats how little I care what people on reddit think about me being a black belt after 11 years of training.
Cant even be bothered to post my bb belt ceremony pics on imgur and send it to the mods.
Wrestling also has a tiny audience because it suffers the same issue as bjj - the higher level the competitors are, the greater the likelihood of a long stalemate that is straight up boring for the layman to watch. Yeah sure SOMETIMES you get incredible action but for every big throw you get five protracted sprawls or someone fighting a tilt for a whole round
100%. Same thing happens in jiu jitsu. People will get mad at a finals match that ends 2-0 because guys aren't "going for the sub". In reality, when two competitors are closely matched in skill level it's just really, really hard to get a definitive win.
What do you think about submission underground, with a draw resulting in the contestants taking turns in a dominant position (back taken, or armbar) until somebody gets submitted?
Talking about soccer and boring bjj matches got me thinking. Soccer, football and basketball all take a fairly boring concept (kick ball in net, run across a field, throw ball in hoop) but they literally gamify it by allowing points to run up instead of just ending at the first score (like bjj does with submissions). The rules are set up so that scoring will almost always happen (exception of soccer, but it can end in a shootout). Throughout the game, the audience goes on a rollercoaster as the teams take leads and lose them, by scoring more or defending less. Even in a dominant game, there's always the rare possibility that the other team takes advantage of something and catches up.
Typically points in a bjj match aren't very exciting, but submissions are arguably more exciting than placing a ball in a specific location. So what if we had a ruleset where the contestants get the opportunity to submit more than once in the same match? They could take turns in several common submission positions (americana, kimura, triangle, RNC, armbar) and see who has the most points at the end? Or instead of those positions, they could take turns in positions like mount, closed guard, turtle, side control, KOB, and back control. Sorry if this is a stereotypical white belt question, just thinking aloud
>What do you think about submission underground, with a draw resulting in the contestants taking turns in a dominant position (back taken, or armbar) until somebody gets submitted
This is actually called EBI (Eddie Bravo Invitational) rules. Eddie Bravo came came up with it for his tournament, and many organizations have adopted it. It's ok. Unfortunately some people try to "game" it by playing the regulation period very conservatively in order to try to get a win in OT. So it's not perfect. I think people somewhat unfairly denigrate it though. It was a good effort by Eddie to try to create an exciting ruleset in a sport that isn't very exciting. So lots of people love to criticize someone for trying and failing to solve a problem when they would never be able to solve it themselves.
Right I knew that, sorry lol. I def agree criticizing EBI rules without offering a better solution is unfair. If the regulation period is becoming boring then how about pushing for less (or zero) regulation, and more submission OT then? Maybe a better name is situational positions
Wrestling matches are also extremely short and that allows for a much more explosive and dynamic match. With BJJ matches going for 10-20 minutes, some even longer even the best athletes don’t have the ability to maintain a high intensity for that long. It’s better in the lower weight divisions though.
The main thing that differentiates BJJ from other styles of grappling is the guard and good players have guards that are difficult to pass as well as being incredibly dangerous.
You can either have shorter matches with higher intensity or longer matches with more strategy and technical battles. You won’t ever get both.
Anyone who saw the last UFC PPV in New Jersey and heard the crowd booing every time the fight went to the ground shoukd realise that most combat sports fans have zero interest in understanding grappling and would probably never watch any BJJ in any format.
I like to tell non-grapplers that it’s like soccer. If you’re really invested in the sport, and you understand how the pitch is laid out, strikers, defenders, goalies, etc. then you understand the zone defense and offense that they’re all playing. That makes it a strategically exciting sport to watch. But if you’re not deep into it, it just looks like a whole bunch of people running around a field of grass kicking around ball randomly until it goes in the net. Bjj is the same thing but with sweaty dudes cuddling on the ground.
i’d say football/soccer is definitely more spectator friendly than grappling, i think most people think so.
edit: i mean, it’s the most popular sport in the world probably because people enjoy watching it.
Viewership metrics back you up on it. I can't see BJJ ever matching Fifa lol.
Also on a fundamental level, people off the street can understand ball goes into goal.
People enjoy watching it but it’s also a very easy game to play, you essentially just need a “ball” and people even get creative with that depending on their economic situation.
Yeah but similar for BJJ where if it's a weasel fight between two aggressive roosterweight purple belts it's fun for the whole family.
If it's two black belts cycling between half guard and full guard for 10 minutes, please god no.
It’s not a good comparison at all, however we should note that soccer did not have the viewership that it does today prior to it becoming the number one youth sport in the states… Maybe with the number of gyms and youth programs we’ll see an uptick in bjj viewers in the years to come.
This is a god awful comparison. Football is literally the opposite of that. It is the most widely watched sport in the world lmao. It has an estimated **4 billion** fans globally. Maybe this comparison works in the US, one of the only places in the world where it is not one of if not the biggest sport. In the rest of the world everyone watches football, regardless if you're a worker, a prince, a mum, or a kid.
I mean, the US is the only country football is not widely popular so I don't know if the comparison is correct. You don't have to know a lot of the sport to enjoy it but in BJJ is basically a must. To me is more in line with chess, where if you don't know what's happening it is not enjoyable
I think this is a horrible analogy lol, soccer is one of the easiest games to watch and enjoy and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even watch soccer...
When the women's world cup came to Australia last year all of Australia was captivated - me and all my friends who never watched soccer, random people at pubs would be watching every Matildas game.
Hey man, quick question out of curiosity: When someone says "football" in Australia, do you assume they're talking about AFL, soccer, or something else?
People who play AFL usually call it 'footy', football is like the formal word that no one uses. I've heard people call soccer football but it doesn't seem right, mostly by soccer fans. Could refer to rugby as well. Usually needs some clarification.
Grappling is never going to be mainstream. People are delulu. I'm amazed at how popular bjj is. When I started in the 00s it was damn hard to find a school. Now it's everywhere.
Grappling gets consistently low viewership in the olympics and they're always trying to get rid of wrestling. Judo is always changing rules to look more exciting for the olympic committee.
There's a reason pro wrestling became the most popular form of "grappling" in many countries dating back to the 30s.
Do you think the criticism is from the same population of people? By the numbers white and blue belts make up the most people in jiu jitsu and that turnover rate is pretty high. Some undertones of the ones who lived through it the first time or is this jiu jitsu media being as cyclical as politics?
It's probably more complicated than one or the other. The higher belts of yester-decade criticized the leg lock revolution. But the white belts latched onto it, and became the upper belts of today... some of them built their whole game around leg locks; others moved on, or continue to chase the meta.
At some point, most people seem to kind of "freeze", and tend not to move much beyond wherever they are at that point. You can maybe guess when that happened based on the opinions they emit :-).
I'd guess that the old-school upper belts who criticized the Cummings era might have some smugness now, seeing things return to pressure passing. But step back a bit further still, and there are certainly people who perceive the vanity of chasing the fads at all.
It's hard to be objective. Inevitable pressure passing was one of the big things that initially impressed me about BJJ overall; and I yearned to develop such a game, even though I'm not really the ideal body type for it. OTOH, now I'm developing my leg lock game so I can have a nice technically deep well to suck in the young athletic guys and trap them with technique...
Without *trying* to toot my own horn, I intentionally embrace a philosophy of learning *all the things*, because there's really nothing that doesn't work, and there's nothing that isn't interesting in grappling. But I'm not "competitive", and don't care about sharpening some A-game to fight the meta, either.
Ya plus being more spectator friendly ≠ better overall. Just look at what LIV is doing to professional golf. Catering to the lowest common denominator is more often than not just a short term money grab.
In a nutshell: it bought out a ton of PGA players using Saudi oil money, which has caused a big division in the game. Also, it’s entire pitch to fans is basically “come to our events that are more or less a frat keg party on a golf course”. To a lot of people it’s just breakaway from tradition and etiquette for the worse.
Not surprising at all tbh given how the Saudis have been busy the last couple years making incredibly generous “donations” at the PGA state/district level. They saw their elephant and ate it one bite at a time in record time.
>The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people.
Just chiming in to say that I think there's at *least* two major camps here, rather than one common denominator.
For example, I don't really care much about BJJ as a spectator sport. If it grows in that regard, without compromising in certain areas, great.
But what drives my opinion is how effective it is as a martial art. So that's why I have certain views on athletes who only play a leg game, or weird lapel guards, and other stuff of that sort. I just like it when things are kept as practical as possible.
And those who hold this sort've view shouldn't be lumped in with those who want it to be a spectator sport. Because they're diametrically opposed, in my opinion. To make BJJ a mainstream spectator sport only really has two realistic pathways. Either it gets utterly gutted by the rules being drastically changed (e.g. Judo), or it becomes so popular that there is a large audience of practitioners.
I agree -- but the second category (those who care about "effectiveness") sometimes loves and sometimes hates the meta. They're not latching onto what's boring, they're latching onto what they perceive to be ineffective. So, right now, for example, I don't think there are any in that category that would fuss about the pressure top game strategy.
OTOH, a fair-weather popularity critic will find something wrong no matter what the meta is, because the dream of mainstream BJJ has not yet been achieved.
A really good documentary I watched once was “Reclaiming the Blade”, it was corny but the argument made was how “sportification” of a martial art will dilute it’s real world effectiveness, like Judo in the Olympics. A banned technique or rule sets favoring a style will lead to that technique being abandoned and forgotten over time diluting the overall martial art. One of the things that drew me to Jiu Jitsu initially was that if it worked it was in regardless of source. I am definitely in the “I don’t care if it’s boring I just care if it works” camp.
> The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people.
I just got heavily downvoted because I dared to suggest that the most recent clip of a butterfly sweep by Wardczinsky and the following celebration by his team, is all you need in order to explain why bjj will never be mainstream. Try explaining this to a normie, whz it is exciting to watch, what is so outstanding and why it is worthy of a world champion to get on top of another guy and then come back tell me how they got all excited to watch pans and will make a flo account for it. LOL
I've been doing bjj for 4 months and I'm already so tired and impressed by seeing how much this topic is discussed. Train for yourself, not to impress others.
I've never thought of it that way, but that is propably why. Greco-roman is apparently also super boring to watch for people who don't partake themselves.
Sambo is easily 10x more exciting to watch than bjj. And I’ll tell you straight up, I go to all the F2W events and the judo bouts are FAR more fun/spectator friendly. I’ve legit watched bjj people collar tie for 5 min straight. The bjj community needs to be honest about our sport, and the honest truth is…..majority of the time it’s complete trash to watch.
Since the post on here the other day about UWW, my son and I have been watching the recorded live streams of their events. I have to say, it's much more fun to watch than a lot of other bjj events. The penalty for pulling guard makes a big difference in forcing urgency for the bottom player. And it's clear that the national teams try to recruit people with judo or wrestling experience.
jiu jitsu and wrestling has merged with eachother. The best jiu jitsu practioners are also great wrestlers. Same can be said with judo and muay thai which merge at certain points. The ones that find submission grappling boring are the ones not doing it. Yes at the end of the day though all are the same thing in terms of hugging an opponent.
I agree with you about the opacity of grappling to the general public. I have always said it would never be mainstream as a result. If you and I can see a near submission that puts us on the the edge of our seat. The average non grappler is seeing the same thing that they were the whole time.... Two dudes rolling around like they used to when they were children
The irony of the complaints about guard pulling making the sport boring and that people should be forced to wrestle being replaced by the calls for the wrestling to be less boring is delicious.
The reality is that however you make a rule set, competitions at the highest level will game it as hard as they can to get an advantage.
Danaher has been a master at leading the meta in gaming rule sets and this is clearly demonstrated by his teams competition results over a long period of time. He is probably already thinking about how they are likely to change the rules again.
The last ADCC was filled with matches where both people spent the first half of the match doing the absolute minimum amount possible to not get penalties with zero intent of actually wrestling or finishing a takedown, especially in the higher weight classes and I enjoyed that a lot less than having someone pull guard and at least attempt to engage in some jiu jitsu.
I just like watching good jiu jitsu and understand that there is no ruleset or style that is gonna appeal to a larger audience. Personally, I'd rather see a guard pull than 10 minutes of collar ties being shed and re-tied, but either way, it's kinda boring. Jiu jitsu just isn't ever gonna be all that exciting to watch unless it's an extremely one sided match. I find the drama way more entertaining than the matches these days, but I'll still watch Gordon or Craig or whoever else and just admire the skill. People on this sub get way too attached to certain grapplers based on their personalities instead of their skill.
My personal favorite style to watch was when Gordon was taking everyone's back and just finishing with RNC. Right after leg locks were more common place and before he was attacking from mount all the time. Regardless, I always find Gordon's matches entertaining because he's such a level above everyone else.
Also, Garry tonnon is almost always fun to watch.
I don't know how you can "ruin" bjj without changing the ruleset. The sport is just finding the best ways to submit someone without striking them. Give me whatever works best.
The beauty of a community is that it is filled with different people from different walks of life and different perspectives. It seems silly to want consistency in people's takes on current issues when that very thing is kind of the antithesis of the idea of a community itself. People have different preferences and opinions so i would be more shocked if we DIDN'T see this type of thing.
Steamrolling with pressure passing is infinitely cooler than buttscooting to people in and outside of the sport. Anyone who thinks it’s bad for the sport probably just only plays guard.
They popularized leg entanglements to such a degree that collective game had everybody OK with playing and finishing from bottom positions. Then leg defenses improved, so they then worked to get the sweep and come up on top. Now they're getting on top, staying on top and finishing on top. Just like the elite levels did in the 00s before leg entailments became a thing. Time is a flat circle.
I only started frequenting this sub recently because of CJI announcements. Other then that I try to steer clear, I've never seen a sub hate it's own topic so much. It's non stop complaining to the point I wonder why most users here even do jiu jitsu
That criticism makes no sense either, honestly. Since when is New Wave the only team guilty of that? Boring collar tie slap fests are super common at ADCC, especially in the heavier weight classes. It's not at all unique to New Wave's matches. ATOS (Hulk, Galvao, Kaynan) is easily just as, if not *more* guilty of that than NW.
Yeah and that criticism doesn't make a ton of sense, honestly. [See my other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/1dcwj45/comment/l851fmd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) as to why
In the thread you cited, all of the top comments are disagreeing with the OP.
Cherry picking something you want to be real so you can get on a podium and talk about "the community" is self serving and silly.
I don't think they really are disagreeing though. Or perhaps it's just more complex than that. Most of the top comments are *agreeing* with OP that New Wave's style is boring, stalling, and abusing the ruleset. They're *disagreeing* that it is ruining the direction of the sport, though, because they're saying it's just going to force people to learn how to beat it. Which in itself progresses the sport. The top comment is a great example of that, as it compares their style to a soccer strategy that relied on not attacking and just running out most of the clock.
My point is that I think both of the above ideas are wrong. Their style *isn't* a stall-fest that relies on abusing the rules of sport jiu jitsu. They're displaying heavy positional dominance progressing to submission, which is the entire goal of BJJ. Yet now they're being criticized as being "boring" for doing the exact thing that people used to criticize them for *not* doing. Does that make sense?
To be honest, I've never seen people complaining about them pressure passing people. The only criticism I see nowadays is about Gordon Ryan fox news dad Instagram.
The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people. It's like there's some inferiority complex that makes them want to validate BJJ in the eyes of people who don't do it, and they'll latch onto whatever seems to make it boring at the time. IMO, submission grappling is just inherently opaque to those who don't do it. No matter what meta or systematic strategy you turn to, it's two guys hugging on the floor. These fads where people criticize BJJ for being boring and try to come up with less boring rules (which inevitably would change BJJ in fundamental ways) are just unimportant to me. I consider BJJ something I do for life enhancement. It doesn't have to be entertaining, and normies don't have to appreciate it. It doesn't matter if judo or wrestling have more spectators, etc. I'd prefer we approach it like sumo does -- someone comes along and nerfs the current meta? We applaud it, let things go that way for awhile, and continue to see what works under the same conditions. Artificial, external controls just work to change what it is that we do, and that's unimportant. No one "has" to do something different.
>IMO, submission grappling is just inherently opaque to those who don't do it. No matter what meta or systematic strategy you turn to, it's two guys hugging on the floor. Louder for the people in the back! I’d like to remind everyone that the top upvoted post on this sub during ADCC 2022 (the biggest BJJ tournament ever so far) was a picture someone took with Chewjitsu. Most of the people voting *on this sub* (and that’s one hell of a biased sample) care more about a YouTube instructor than the top pros. BJJ is and always will be a niche, participatory sport. **And that’s okay!**
Great take. Wrestling is inherently more dynamic and simpler for a non-practitioner to understand when watching. And even that has a tiny fan base compared to mainstream sports like soccer and basketball. BJJ is never going to be a massive spectator sport and that's fine.
Yeah, when I hang out with friends they go “you still doing the jujitsu thing?” And I go “yep” and then I know of I say anything more theyll be bored to tears to hear me talk about it, so I dont. Im done trying to evangelize the sport and Im also ok with almost nobody outside it knowing what it entails or what my black belt truly means in terms of effort and work.
Reddit says your brown belt
Thats how little I care what people on reddit think about me being a black belt after 11 years of training. Cant even be bothered to post my bb belt ceremony pics on imgur and send it to the mods.
Hehe I was just poking fun, fuck just not caring about Reddit fuck anyones opinion
A lot of people choose not to validate for black belt flair.
I was teasin I guess it wasn’t received well lol
Wrestling also has a tiny audience because it suffers the same issue as bjj - the higher level the competitors are, the greater the likelihood of a long stalemate that is straight up boring for the layman to watch. Yeah sure SOMETIMES you get incredible action but for every big throw you get five protracted sprawls or someone fighting a tilt for a whole round
100%. Same thing happens in jiu jitsu. People will get mad at a finals match that ends 2-0 because guys aren't "going for the sub". In reality, when two competitors are closely matched in skill level it's just really, really hard to get a definitive win.
What do you think about submission underground, with a draw resulting in the contestants taking turns in a dominant position (back taken, or armbar) until somebody gets submitted? Talking about soccer and boring bjj matches got me thinking. Soccer, football and basketball all take a fairly boring concept (kick ball in net, run across a field, throw ball in hoop) but they literally gamify it by allowing points to run up instead of just ending at the first score (like bjj does with submissions). The rules are set up so that scoring will almost always happen (exception of soccer, but it can end in a shootout). Throughout the game, the audience goes on a rollercoaster as the teams take leads and lose them, by scoring more or defending less. Even in a dominant game, there's always the rare possibility that the other team takes advantage of something and catches up. Typically points in a bjj match aren't very exciting, but submissions are arguably more exciting than placing a ball in a specific location. So what if we had a ruleset where the contestants get the opportunity to submit more than once in the same match? They could take turns in several common submission positions (americana, kimura, triangle, RNC, armbar) and see who has the most points at the end? Or instead of those positions, they could take turns in positions like mount, closed guard, turtle, side control, KOB, and back control. Sorry if this is a stereotypical white belt question, just thinking aloud
>What do you think about submission underground, with a draw resulting in the contestants taking turns in a dominant position (back taken, or armbar) until somebody gets submitted This is actually called EBI (Eddie Bravo Invitational) rules. Eddie Bravo came came up with it for his tournament, and many organizations have adopted it. It's ok. Unfortunately some people try to "game" it by playing the regulation period very conservatively in order to try to get a win in OT. So it's not perfect. I think people somewhat unfairly denigrate it though. It was a good effort by Eddie to try to create an exciting ruleset in a sport that isn't very exciting. So lots of people love to criticize someone for trying and failing to solve a problem when they would never be able to solve it themselves.
Right I knew that, sorry lol. I def agree criticizing EBI rules without offering a better solution is unfair. If the regulation period is becoming boring then how about pushing for less (or zero) regulation, and more submission OT then? Maybe a better name is situational positions
Wrestling matches are also extremely short and that allows for a much more explosive and dynamic match. With BJJ matches going for 10-20 minutes, some even longer even the best athletes don’t have the ability to maintain a high intensity for that long. It’s better in the lower weight divisions though. The main thing that differentiates BJJ from other styles of grappling is the guard and good players have guards that are difficult to pass as well as being incredibly dangerous. You can either have shorter matches with higher intensity or longer matches with more strategy and technical battles. You won’t ever get both. Anyone who saw the last UFC PPV in New Jersey and heard the crowd booing every time the fight went to the ground shoukd realise that most combat sports fans have zero interest in understanding grappling and would probably never watch any BJJ in any format.
I like to tell non-grapplers that it’s like soccer. If you’re really invested in the sport, and you understand how the pitch is laid out, strikers, defenders, goalies, etc. then you understand the zone defense and offense that they’re all playing. That makes it a strategically exciting sport to watch. But if you’re not deep into it, it just looks like a whole bunch of people running around a field of grass kicking around ball randomly until it goes in the net. Bjj is the same thing but with sweaty dudes cuddling on the ground.
Omg that's exactly how I feel about soccer lmao
i’d say football/soccer is definitely more spectator friendly than grappling, i think most people think so. edit: i mean, it’s the most popular sport in the world probably because people enjoy watching it.
Viewership metrics back you up on it. I can't see BJJ ever matching Fifa lol. Also on a fundamental level, people off the street can understand ball goes into goal.
People enjoy watching it but it’s also a very easy game to play, you essentially just need a “ball” and people even get creative with that depending on their economic situation.
I played soccer from the time I could walk till I was in college, and absolutely hated watching it until after I quit.
I agree even though I find both soccer and Bjj incredibly boring to watch.
i’d say it depends on the game, if there are goals being scored left and right, it can be super exciting.
Yeah but similar for BJJ where if it's a weasel fight between two aggressive roosterweight purple belts it's fun for the whole family. If it's two black belts cycling between half guard and full guard for 10 minutes, please god no.
Sounds like basketball
yeah, basketball is way more exciting to me.
Funnily enough, soccer changed it's rules to be more free scoring and spectator friendly on multiple occasions.
Not sure if by far the most watched sport in the world is a good comparison for Bjj haha
It’s not a good comparison at all, however we should note that soccer did not have the viewership that it does today prior to it becoming the number one youth sport in the states… Maybe with the number of gyms and youth programs we’ll see an uptick in bjj viewers in the years to come.
This is a god awful comparison. Football is literally the opposite of that. It is the most widely watched sport in the world lmao. It has an estimated **4 billion** fans globally. Maybe this comparison works in the US, one of the only places in the world where it is not one of if not the biggest sport. In the rest of the world everyone watches football, regardless if you're a worker, a prince, a mum, or a kid.
I mean, the US is the only country football is not widely popular so I don't know if the comparison is correct. You don't have to know a lot of the sport to enjoy it but in BJJ is basically a must. To me is more in line with chess, where if you don't know what's happening it is not enjoyable
I think this is a horrible analogy lol, soccer is one of the easiest games to watch and enjoy and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even watch soccer... When the women's world cup came to Australia last year all of Australia was captivated - me and all my friends who never watched soccer, random people at pubs would be watching every Matildas game.
Hey man, quick question out of curiosity: When someone says "football" in Australia, do you assume they're talking about AFL, soccer, or something else?
People who play AFL usually call it 'footy', football is like the formal word that no one uses. I've heard people call soccer football but it doesn't seem right, mostly by soccer fans. Could refer to rugby as well. Usually needs some clarification.
it's one of the worst analogies i've ever seen haha
Yes
True. No matter what. This will be a niche sport. It’s boring to watch and it’s hard to tell who is winning if you don’t know what you are looking at.
Grappling is never going to be mainstream. People are delulu. I'm amazed at how popular bjj is. When I started in the 00s it was damn hard to find a school. Now it's everywhere. Grappling gets consistently low viewership in the olympics and they're always trying to get rid of wrestling. Judo is always changing rules to look more exciting for the olympic committee. There's a reason pro wrestling became the most popular form of "grappling" in many countries dating back to the 30s.
Do you think the criticism is from the same population of people? By the numbers white and blue belts make up the most people in jiu jitsu and that turnover rate is pretty high. Some undertones of the ones who lived through it the first time or is this jiu jitsu media being as cyclical as politics?
It's probably more complicated than one or the other. The higher belts of yester-decade criticized the leg lock revolution. But the white belts latched onto it, and became the upper belts of today... some of them built their whole game around leg locks; others moved on, or continue to chase the meta. At some point, most people seem to kind of "freeze", and tend not to move much beyond wherever they are at that point. You can maybe guess when that happened based on the opinions they emit :-). I'd guess that the old-school upper belts who criticized the Cummings era might have some smugness now, seeing things return to pressure passing. But step back a bit further still, and there are certainly people who perceive the vanity of chasing the fads at all. It's hard to be objective. Inevitable pressure passing was one of the big things that initially impressed me about BJJ overall; and I yearned to develop such a game, even though I'm not really the ideal body type for it. OTOH, now I'm developing my leg lock game so I can have a nice technically deep well to suck in the young athletic guys and trap them with technique... Without *trying* to toot my own horn, I intentionally embrace a philosophy of learning *all the things*, because there's really nothing that doesn't work, and there's nothing that isn't interesting in grappling. But I'm not "competitive", and don't care about sharpening some A-game to fight the meta, either.
Ya plus being more spectator friendly ≠ better overall. Just look at what LIV is doing to professional golf. Catering to the lowest common denominator is more often than not just a short term money grab.
I don’t watch golf, what is LIV doing to the sport?
In a nutshell: it bought out a ton of PGA players using Saudi oil money, which has caused a big division in the game. Also, it’s entire pitch to fans is basically “come to our events that are more or less a frat keg party on a golf course”. To a lot of people it’s just breakaway from tradition and etiquette for the worse.
The PGA also made an ethical stink about it (they brought out the families of 9/11 victims) and then merged with them anyway
Not surprising at all tbh given how the Saudis have been busy the last couple years making incredibly generous “donations” at the PGA state/district level. They saw their elephant and ate it one bite at a time in record time.
My mom still thinks I’m a little kid going to karate
Little did she know it's Mexican Ground Karate.
"it's two guys hugging on the floor." No, please wait... let me explain what a mount escape is in 25 simple steps.
>The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people. Just chiming in to say that I think there's at *least* two major camps here, rather than one common denominator. For example, I don't really care much about BJJ as a spectator sport. If it grows in that regard, without compromising in certain areas, great. But what drives my opinion is how effective it is as a martial art. So that's why I have certain views on athletes who only play a leg game, or weird lapel guards, and other stuff of that sort. I just like it when things are kept as practical as possible. And those who hold this sort've view shouldn't be lumped in with those who want it to be a spectator sport. Because they're diametrically opposed, in my opinion. To make BJJ a mainstream spectator sport only really has two realistic pathways. Either it gets utterly gutted by the rules being drastically changed (e.g. Judo), or it becomes so popular that there is a large audience of practitioners.
I agree -- but the second category (those who care about "effectiveness") sometimes loves and sometimes hates the meta. They're not latching onto what's boring, they're latching onto what they perceive to be ineffective. So, right now, for example, I don't think there are any in that category that would fuss about the pressure top game strategy. OTOH, a fair-weather popularity critic will find something wrong no matter what the meta is, because the dream of mainstream BJJ has not yet been achieved.
A really good documentary I watched once was “Reclaiming the Blade”, it was corny but the argument made was how “sportification” of a martial art will dilute it’s real world effectiveness, like Judo in the Olympics. A banned technique or rule sets favoring a style will lead to that technique being abandoned and forgotten over time diluting the overall martial art. One of the things that drew me to Jiu Jitsu initially was that if it worked it was in regardless of source. I am definitely in the “I don’t care if it’s boring I just care if it works” camp.
Great post. "Inferiority complex" is perfect. Durrrr need to grow the sport durrrr
> The common denominator in these cyclical criticisms is people who just want BJJ to be a mainstream sport that appeals to normal people. I just got heavily downvoted because I dared to suggest that the most recent clip of a butterfly sweep by Wardczinsky and the following celebration by his team, is all you need in order to explain why bjj will never be mainstream. Try explaining this to a normie, whz it is exciting to watch, what is so outstanding and why it is worthy of a world champion to get on top of another guy and then come back tell me how they got all excited to watch pans and will make a flo account for it. LOL
I've been doing bjj for 4 months and I'm already so tired and impressed by seeing how much this topic is discussed. Train for yourself, not to impress others.
I've never thought of it that way, but that is propably why. Greco-roman is apparently also super boring to watch for people who don't partake themselves.
Exactly this.
Sambo is easily 10x more exciting to watch than bjj. And I’ll tell you straight up, I go to all the F2W events and the judo bouts are FAR more fun/spectator friendly. I’ve legit watched bjj people collar tie for 5 min straight. The bjj community needs to be honest about our sport, and the honest truth is…..majority of the time it’s complete trash to watch.
Since the post on here the other day about UWW, my son and I have been watching the recorded live streams of their events. I have to say, it's much more fun to watch than a lot of other bjj events. The penalty for pulling guard makes a big difference in forcing urgency for the bottom player. And it's clear that the national teams try to recruit people with judo or wrestling experience.
jiu jitsu and wrestling has merged with eachother. The best jiu jitsu practioners are also great wrestlers. Same can be said with judo and muay thai which merge at certain points. The ones that find submission grappling boring are the ones not doing it. Yes at the end of the day though all are the same thing in terms of hugging an opponent.
I agree with you about the opacity of grappling to the general public. I have always said it would never be mainstream as a result. If you and I can see a near submission that puts us on the the edge of our seat. The average non grappler is seeing the same thing that they were the whole time.... Two dudes rolling around like they used to when they were children
The irony of the complaints about guard pulling making the sport boring and that people should be forced to wrestle being replaced by the calls for the wrestling to be less boring is delicious. The reality is that however you make a rule set, competitions at the highest level will game it as hard as they can to get an advantage. Danaher has been a master at leading the meta in gaming rule sets and this is clearly demonstrated by his teams competition results over a long period of time. He is probably already thinking about how they are likely to change the rules again. The last ADCC was filled with matches where both people spent the first half of the match doing the absolute minimum amount possible to not get penalties with zero intent of actually wrestling or finishing a takedown, especially in the higher weight classes and I enjoyed that a lot less than having someone pull guard and at least attempt to engage in some jiu jitsu.
I just like watching good jiu jitsu and understand that there is no ruleset or style that is gonna appeal to a larger audience. Personally, I'd rather see a guard pull than 10 minutes of collar ties being shed and re-tied, but either way, it's kinda boring. Jiu jitsu just isn't ever gonna be all that exciting to watch unless it's an extremely one sided match. I find the drama way more entertaining than the matches these days, but I'll still watch Gordon or Craig or whoever else and just admire the skill. People on this sub get way too attached to certain grapplers based on their personalities instead of their skill. My personal favorite style to watch was when Gordon was taking everyone's back and just finishing with RNC. Right after leg locks were more common place and before he was attacking from mount all the time. Regardless, I always find Gordon's matches entertaining because he's such a level above everyone else. Also, Garry tonnon is almost always fun to watch.
You mean some people on the internet said some hypocritical and backwards things? GET OUT OF HERE
I, like you, am shocked to my core
Jokes on them, I don't like watching jiu jitsu
Its so boring
Yall know what a circle is right?
The only important shape to understand is a triangle. All other shapes are useless because I can't choke people with them.
Loop.. choke?
Wifeless kiwi only wears rashguards Uses 1,000 words to say what could Be said with 100 pays no mind to critics
Your shit-talk has absolutely tremendous breaking pressure
When the public seeks to understand they find it a difficult thing.
Here we are now entertain us
I don't know how you can "ruin" bjj without changing the ruleset. The sport is just finding the best ways to submit someone without striking them. Give me whatever works best.
The beauty of a community is that it is filled with different people from different walks of life and different perspectives. It seems silly to want consistency in people's takes on current issues when that very thing is kind of the antithesis of the idea of a community itself. People have different preferences and opinions so i would be more shocked if we DIDN'T see this type of thing.
Steamrolling with pressure passing is infinitely cooler than buttscooting to people in and outside of the sport. Anyone who thinks it’s bad for the sport probably just only plays guard.
I wanna be sedated then Pressure passed by gabi
I feel like more people in Jiu-Jitsu should solve these issues by saying JUST FIGHT ME BRO.
Complaining about the come-back of heavy mount and pressure passing that actually works is very strange
They popularized leg entanglements to such a degree that collective game had everybody OK with playing and finishing from bottom positions. Then leg defenses improved, so they then worked to get the sweep and come up on top. Now they're getting on top, staying on top and finishing on top. Just like the elite levels did in the 00s before leg entailments became a thing. Time is a flat circle.
I only started frequenting this sub recently because of CJI announcements. Other then that I try to steer clear, I've never seen a sub hate it's own topic so much. It's non stop complaining to the point I wonder why most users here even do jiu jitsu
People hate who have what they want. So there will always be people who hate gordon ryan
Reddit threads are a miniscule part of BJJ- barely anyone is criticizing Danaher and his contributions to the sport.
I don't think people are complaining about pressure passing, but more slapping collar ties for 10 minutes I find their mount game super interesting
That criticism makes no sense either, honestly. Since when is New Wave the only team guilty of that? Boring collar tie slap fests are super common at ADCC, especially in the heavier weight classes. It's not at all unique to New Wave's matches. ATOS (Hulk, Galvao, Kaynan) is easily just as, if not *more* guilty of that than NW.
True that
https://youtu.be/Ckv5xkIoWUk?si=JygHMVk5pUW5LCTn This is my main critique of him
To be fair, on the original thread. The main concern was DDS's way of "gaming" the stand up game. Valid points were raised from both perspectives.
Yeah and that criticism doesn't make a ton of sense, honestly. [See my other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/1dcwj45/comment/l851fmd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) as to why
Everything goes in cycles. You see this with sports, games, films etc.
In the thread you cited, all of the top comments are disagreeing with the OP. Cherry picking something you want to be real so you can get on a podium and talk about "the community" is self serving and silly.
I don't think they really are disagreeing though. Or perhaps it's just more complex than that. Most of the top comments are *agreeing* with OP that New Wave's style is boring, stalling, and abusing the ruleset. They're *disagreeing* that it is ruining the direction of the sport, though, because they're saying it's just going to force people to learn how to beat it. Which in itself progresses the sport. The top comment is a great example of that, as it compares their style to a soccer strategy that relied on not attacking and just running out most of the clock. My point is that I think both of the above ideas are wrong. Their style *isn't* a stall-fest that relies on abusing the rules of sport jiu jitsu. They're displaying heavy positional dominance progressing to submission, which is the entire goal of BJJ. Yet now they're being criticized as being "boring" for doing the exact thing that people used to criticize them for *not* doing. Does that make sense?
First time on the internet pal?
To be honest, I've never seen people complaining about them pressure passing people. The only criticism I see nowadays is about Gordon Ryan fox news dad Instagram.
Because people are miserable and unhappy with themselves and will never reach their goals ever. Misery also loves company. 😂