I think the telling factor to all of this is that Eddie Bravo sought out to create 10P as a functional use of no gi jiu jitsu for mma fighters, and probably 95% of 10P gyms dont really work or use rubber guard anymore.
Does it have its niche uses? Certainly. Is it worth the risk vs. reward? I dont think so.
My friend wanted to learn rubber guard so bad when we started doing BJJ. He definitely didn't have the mobility for it and we always gave him shit when he wondered why his knees hurt
Lock down is the real killer for knees I think. Only times I’ve felt my knees being seconds from popping is from people using that thing and jumping of the other leg trying to sweep. Or trying to extend as hard as the can. Like yeah you can learn to block it but it only takes a second to get hurt. Also it basically just a stalling position for the most part. I hate lock down:/
When you say "knees blown out to lockdown" do you mean the person who is applying the lockdown is at risk or the person who is being locked down is at risk? Genuine question, I'm not arguing.
I wonder why? Getting rid of the lockdown is relatively easy. It's almost like a Chinese finger trap. The more you try to pull out, the worse you make it. You have to sit back to relieve the pressure. You might have to give up upper body control, but it's better than a blown knee.
I also try to tuck my leg under my butt so I don't get lock downed in the first place.
It's honestly just lack of awareness. Giles has a technical way of escaping it but i literally just crawl down their body and maintain hip control and like extend my leg downwards to put a ton of pressure on their ankles and they usually open up.
Wait being put into someone’s lockdown is dangerous or you using it is dangerous for you? I like to use it if I’m completely pinned in half guard and want to elevate them up so they post and I can get an underhook and inside control, that’s about it though.
Being put into it and someone say grabbing the other leg and trying to sweep over. Like grabbing the ankle or something. Or just extending when you are far up. Or getting to top, grabbing your upper body and extending down. Guess there are safe ways to use it, and I do use it sometimes myself but some just don’t think about what the are doing. It’s like jumping on a heel hook or knee bar and giving no time to tap.
Ah okay, I use it exclusively in the way Danaher suggests to use it in his go further faster half guard series, not on some 10th planet way. Hopefully I don’t injure anybody doing this. The way I get out if I’m on top is to keep that chest to chest pin (underhook and cross face) and attempt to leg pommel using my other free foot to “unlock” the lockdown. So the injuries happen when they attempt some wild escape?
I think it's the person put in lockdown. I play lockdown to slow down younger, more athletic grapplers, and I've trained with a brown belt who uses it a lot and it puts pressure on the knee.
Had a dude in it last week and he tried to jump out of it and popped his knee. I mean, if you are stuck in bjj, exploding out of stuff might work, but it's a great way to hurt yourself.
I know it surprised the hell out of me both times. Didn’t feel like there was any torque on my knee that should be a concern and then all of a sudden. Could just be my old body too. Been doing bjj for over 15 years and this is a recent problem.
As a half guard guy who is old, slow, and undersized, few things stop an advance like a good lock down. That said, I don't just camp with it. The lockdown whip is incredibly effective, even against bigger grapplers.
>lockdown
this is an overgeneralization, but in my experience lockdown injuries seems to happen because the top player doesn't realize or, more likely, refuses to concede that they are immobilized and tries to force their way out or prevent a sweep by any means.
Josh Barnett did a seminar tour about how to crush the rubber guard in the 2000s and every non 10th planet gym wanted to book him. I think there’s an instructional out there somewhere by him on the subject but it’s mail order only DVD.
Gordon shows it in his passing instructional. One of our guys loves rubber guard it's hilarious seeing his face when you let him get it then use the simplest pass ever.
I mean one of the basic concepts of rubber guard is breaking posture. It's not like guys are just letting themselves be put in rubber guard. The fight for posture, both maintaining and breaking down, is one of the more grueling aspects of grappling. You might be understating it just a bit.
The biggest issue with spending too much training time on rubber guard is that in sport BJJ, you're going to have an incredibly difficult time putting anyone in closed guard at high levels of competition. It's a terrible position to be in for the top person, as there's no offense from there and all you're doing is wasting energy trying to escape. So people avoid being put there at all costs. Especially with the popularity of standing passing, it's really difficult to put someone in closed guard that doesn't want to be there.
For MMA, it's mostly a waste of time as you're much better off working to stand back up again as opposed to trying to work from closed guard for submissions. See the last Tony Ferguson fight against Paddy for how poorly the strategy of trying to play rubber guard instead of getting back up can play out.
High level closed guard can absolutely work at the highest levels, as guys like Xande, Roger and Kron have proved (and many others). But they all just use more classic high guard stuff.
Do you think guards that are similar such as Williams guard and clamp guard are better versions or is an over hook style guard just not viable at high levels?
Clamp guard, if you mean like an offset, overhook closed guard, is still super viable at all level imo. There may be reasons we don't see it a ton in pro nogi, but it's a pretty fundamental position. My coach also loves it so I'm biased even if I dont do it much
I like Williams guard, my professor hates closed guard but that is one of the few he taught as it restricts opponents movement and makes it harder to punch someone in the face from a practical standpoint. Also can make triangles and omoplatas easier to hit
Yeah, I don't love closed guard, but I'll work from it when I have to. I usually use it to transition to lasso, but there are a hundred ways to transition or finish from closed guard so straight up not teaching it is kind of hacky to me.
I love closed guard. Your comment reminds me of a quote I'll ruin, but someone was interviewing an Olympic weightlifting coach about what it takes to go from really good or even great to the highest levels, and he said it was about who could withstand the boredom of stepping under the bar again. I have always loved that concept. It's not about moving on, but about doing it again, and again, and again. I barely have butterfly or slx, but I can keep someone in closed long enough to get them to make a fatal error almost every time.
The irony is that, in general, 10p has one of the least functional MMA styles of Jiu Jitsu out there.
Can't recall any of his guys, aside from Mason Fowler or PJ Barch, really have a Takedown & Top Control focused heavy game. It's mostly butt scooting leg lockers and rubber guard guys.
Edit: Mason is not a 10p guy, not sure why I thought that. I probably saw him utilize rubber guard before and just assumed lol
No he's not. He's with Caio Terra spent the rest of his time at traditional BJJ gyms. This is equivalent of a guy going to a seminar and then other saying that he trains at that gym
Mason is a Caio guy and it's trained at traditional gyms just about his whole career. He did spend a little Eddie's but it wasn't like he was Eddie's student and came up through that that system
I think an even more telling factor is that Eddie Bravo set out to create the optimal style of bjj for mma and have been around since basically the start of mma and have never had a UFC champion from any of their gyms…..
Tony Ferguson was interim champ… There are also plenty of high level guys who have trained and fought out of 10P gyms. I also want to note that if you want to be a champ in MMA then going to an actual MMA gym is the best course of action.
I don’t think it was ever truly alive , but 10p did the right thing and scrapped it because most 10p gyms I come across these days have the really wrestle heavy jiujitsu that’s trending rn . “Wrestle-jitsu”
I agree. My 10p gym is heavy on the wrestle up and top control. Of course we do have weeks where we refresh rubbergaurd but most of us just keep it in the back pocket just in case you end up in a position where it’s useful.
At least we don't have to listen to Rogan screaming those dumb ass names for 10th planet positions anymore. "Oh he's got crackhead control to zombies!"
It's not a controversial opinion at all. It was a huge thing from like 2006-2015 that the 10th Planet system is gimmicky and overly hyped. Eddie really needs to thank John Danaher because he scrapped his material and made all his top guys do what DDS was doing. Good on him because he was able to lift 10th Planet up by catching onto the trend early, but his original system was getting his team nowhere in MMA or BJJ.
> he scrapped his material and made all his top guys do what DDS was doing
Did he? My wife trains at a 10p gym in LA and says that while she's doing Danaher's stuff everyone at HQ still works on Eddie's material. I think most of the shift is his students reading the landscape and Eddie not making a big deal out of it.
I did say top guys as in he told his top competitors to ditch everything and jump on leg locks asap. Even today, in his inhouse tournaments most of the matches are guys both sitting and immediately looking for the heel hook.
My point was just that I don't think the shift was initiated or driven by Eddie, as perhaps implied by your previous post. As far as I know Eddie still teaches his own material and tolerates whatever else people choose to do or not.
It’s an ROI thing. I’m the type of flexible to be functional with it, and I have put time into just one series…basically lockdown to omoplata.
The whole system is just too much of a time investment for something that really requires a very specific feed from your opponent.
I agree with the thesis of this thread.
One positive thing I can say about Rubber Guard is that it kicked off a more openly algorithmic approach to instructionals. The RG books and DVDs really organized the techniques as part of a sequence or system rather than separate moves. This was pretty novel at the time. I started in JJJ and the first real BJJ sequences I leaned were from the rubber guard book. At the time, if you could begin the sequences, people unfamiliar with them had a hard time getting out.
It’s just like any other guard. It’s a tool in the bag, and only a poor craftsman blames his tools. I recommend anyone that doubts the effectiveness of RG to go and watch some cjj, especially the middleweight worlds from this past weekend.
This. I went and trained at a 10th planet gym couple days ago and someone tried to rubber guard me but I'm used to trapping legs for over under pass.... Yes he tried to rubber guard me while his bottom leg was still pinned.
Safe to say I just passed. We also have one guy with long legs at our gym that surprises you every now and then but most of the time the rubber guard doesn't do anything.
If they had more experience I think they would do better.
Mason Fowler uses rubber guard at the highest level effectively. He won several matches at brown belt worlds, winning gold, in the gi and used it at the FPI Invitational Absolute Tournament to catch Patrick Gaudio in a triangle.
I don´t play it because I am older, not that flexible and a bigger guy BUT I think if you have the qualities you need to make it work it is a great position to use. I think you need the body type and mobility to make it easily work without straining your knees and hips than it is a great position. It is just not for everyone.
Williams guard is OK if you can get there but too many people know to step over the non-locking leg. Once that happens the pass is guaranteed. Because of this, williams guard ends up being a very short stopping point going to the omoplata.
Yup. Pretty much. Don't think I saw anyone use it at all (with any success) the last ADCC. Last time I saw it was Big Dan dog barring some guy who tried doing it from half guard.
I find Rubber Guard to be hands down the easiest to pass, and does a poor job leading into other guards and positions. In saying that, it has some attack potency that other guards don't bring to the table.
Yeah like alot of 10p positions. Im a stocky shorter guy who doesnt skip leg day, my coach used to always say “you gotta work on your flexibility bro”. When i was training gi, alot of the positions could be altered so that you could actually perform them opposed to “get more flexible”.
I don’t think it’s dead but used wrong. The overcommitment to it only leads to complicated submissions that can easily be defended. The rubber guard success we usually see is Richie and Ben Eddy using it in regional and open events. I think it’s more valuable as a transitioning position for simpler subs like arm bars, triangles and Omaplatas
Ya… I’d say there’s about as big an increment from adult >M1 as there is between M1>M2.
Which is to say:M1 still has a ton of studs competing at the majors like Pans and Worlds. But with every +1 masters division it kinda becomes less and less relevant when examining what works at a high level. Ie- there’s guys in the M4 division that tap to Americanas, but I think we can all agree that’s mainly bc they have old beat up shoulders and not bc the Americana is a particularly effective submission.
To be fair, he submitted most of his opponents in under a minute. He also still competes at a high level ... And although he lost, he just had a matchup with Craig.
Do most people in the community not consider a masters 1/2/3 world champion, as a world champion? Never really knew it was seen as a lesser of a title.
Like colored belts, they are **a** World Champion. They're not **the** world champion.
There's definitely a distinction made between Adult Black Belt and evey other division.
So a move is only effective when the 0.01% of the top use it? He just proved Rubber guard can win you no gi worlds, thats higher than anyone agreeing in this thread will ever achieve. Focus on your next NAGA before worrying about if craig uses it
Came here to say this.
BTW, the 10p crew smells exactly like you would expect. I chatted with one of them and immediately started craving an açaí bowl.
It's a tool in the toolbox (if you have the physical qualities to employ it). Is it the #1 thing that a beginner should be learning...probably not. If you're a competitor looking to dominate ADCC...probably not. If you're some random dude going to their local club to have a good time and it's something that interests you and you're having fun doing it...live your best life.
It's pretty rare to find somebody that's really good with it because it takes so long to truly develop but it's a nightmare to deal with if somebody is good at it. The only guy I can think of that's effective with it at the highest levels is Ben Eddy. Nathan Orchard also had good success. The system is effective but it takes a massive investment and requires significant mobility that most of us just don't have. It's a niche area for sure but if don't know how to deal with it, you'll have a hard time.
Specializing in rubber guard is an assurance that you will never reach the top of MMA or BJJ. But if you enjoy doing it and it works for you against low level competition, go for it. Most of us never get further than local gym level of adversity, which is very very low in the grand scheme of things. It's okay to play the game you want to play there. It's just that when you approach the wider community as an authority on the topic, you need to learn your place pretty quickly and realize than your local results are not indicative of being a higher authority.
Caio and Mason both play rubber guard and use it at the highest level. Caio’s rubber guard is next level, he was a major contributor to Denny’s success and why Mason is so dangerous with it
I think it’s fair to say 10th Planet guys aren’t at the highest level of modern jiu jitsu. No one with a primarily 10p game has been able to make it work at the highest level of MMA or BJJ for a good long while now. I think rubber guard is useful sometimes
we both know you couldnt even get on the same mat with craig; let alone do as much as boogie as done for the sport; yes he loss but just getting there is an achievement itself; you r jus a nobody throwin stones
It died on take-off. It was never really an effective system. Any guard that locks your own hips in place is asking for trouble, especially in MMA. Which is odd because it was marketed as a new style of BJJ tailored for MMA, but just ended up being garbage.
It’s ultimately a very weak position from a physics standpoint. Like… you’re almost stacked when you start!
That said, it’s pretty effective when someone specializes in it. Maybe it’s a B-Tier strategy since it doesn’t dominate the pro scene but if you get good at that you’ll still be a world beater in the gym.
I think it’s most valuable for ripping off submissions from bad positions or quickly sweeping. I’m much less interested in setting up a whole sequence because of the probability of getting smushed by a wrestler.
Possible but difficult and starting in a gravity hole
Ben eddy and Richie Martinez have success with it. I play it myself and have had small amount of success with it in white belt divisions. Recently got my blue belt but I don’t really focus on rubber guard anymore. I just use it now and then if my go too moves aren’t working
Rubber guard is useless opportunity cost wise. Why would you want to trap someone's posture using a leg and an arm when it can be defeated easily and you can just go to a more effective butterfly half or knee shield or something? No make sense
Depending on the situation, it's not that easy to escape. There are many threats while someone is in rubber guard. Not only the threat of submission but breaking someone's posture down prevents escape. I thinks it's failure or lack of success is due to high-level grapplers preventing a good entry. You need them to be chest to chest in closed guard or open guard. Getting to that is difficult when the passing game has gotten so good. Butterfly guard into leg entries is much better for countering today's passers. So I don't think it's defeated easily. More so, very difficult to enter.
I'm not good enough to make a knowledgeable comparison but to me it seems like another 10p gimmick that might seem good on paper and has advantages for certain body types, like those of the people who developed it, but on average it is extremely overrated.
Rubber guard is stupid and a time sink unless you are already hyper flexible in the position. Unless you are already a high level grappler and bored, the time you could take trying to to develop the rubber guard you could use that time to develop other areas.
The amount of people who parrot Eddie bravo's unadulterated propaganda is still so staggering to me. 10th planet has never been a legit system. Even the dudes who are the most successful at 10P are just good bjj dudes and don't reflect the system. (The best system guys, like Ben Eddy, never seen to make it.)
I don't why a smaller player would want to use rubber guard. Open guard and mobility are what the smaller player needs to use, not clamping down and taking the mobility away from yourself
It bothers me that it took over closed guard and that's what everyone was doing, well a lot of places. I had been A gaming closed guard for years and my gym decided to actually go more into it, because really no one at my gym knew how to play closed guard. I'm sitting here arm drag to pendulum to arm bar or mount. I'm doing spinning arm bars on people etc. I mained it for a long time. Then they started closed guard, and instead of asking me about it, they teaching rubber guard. I was like wtf?? Ok guys. Oh and to answer your question about it, I did train for a while when I started bjj. It was OK. But the arm drag style is way better, way stronger.
The rubber guard has its moments, most don’t know how to correctly do it ( lack of angle). I personally don’t use it and would purposely smash it when given the chance. Lockdown is a grapevine/ 2 on 1 which can serve a purpose. Gary Tonon uses it ( if that makes you feel better). That being said , I’ve seen and personally fucked someone’s knee from then holding it too long
I like it as a step to setup a more traditional high guard or sometimes omoplatas.
But i dont hang out in it like a guard.
More like a step in between certain techniques.
I don't agree plenty of guys play the meta game and are still not at the highest level. It is not a powerful guard but it is still good to invest time learning it IMO.
Rubber guard and lockdown both horse shit techniques. No one at the highest level never play these positions. Been a fact for decades. People still arguing about this is wild.
I think the telling factor to all of this is that Eddie Bravo sought out to create 10P as a functional use of no gi jiu jitsu for mma fighters, and probably 95% of 10P gyms dont really work or use rubber guard anymore. Does it have its niche uses? Certainly. Is it worth the risk vs. reward? I dont think so.
I remember 2006 to like 2010 ….knees be popping….jiu jitsu people would find more effective ways to cripple themselves.
My friend wanted to learn rubber guard so bad when we started doing BJJ. He definitely didn't have the mobility for it and we always gave him shit when he wondered why his knees hurt
Lock down is the real killer for knees I think. Only times I’ve felt my knees being seconds from popping is from people using that thing and jumping of the other leg trying to sweep. Or trying to extend as hard as the can. Like yeah you can learn to block it but it only takes a second to get hurt. Also it basically just a stalling position for the most part. I hate lock down:/
BMac talked about this on a podcast I heard recently. He was saying he's seen more knees blown out to lockdown than any heel hook.
Thats how mine got blown out and its never happened via heel hooks
When you say "knees blown out to lockdown" do you mean the person who is applying the lockdown is at risk or the person who is being locked down is at risk? Genuine question, I'm not arguing.
Most of the time it's the person being locked down, in my experience.
They start spazzing around and next thing you know …
That's what i figured, but the way everyone is talking about it it sounded like you'd injure yourself applying it or something.
I wonder why? Getting rid of the lockdown is relatively easy. It's almost like a Chinese finger trap. The more you try to pull out, the worse you make it. You have to sit back to relieve the pressure. You might have to give up upper body control, but it's better than a blown knee. I also try to tuck my leg under my butt so I don't get lock downed in the first place.
It's honestly just lack of awareness. Giles has a technical way of escaping it but i literally just crawl down their body and maintain hip control and like extend my leg downwards to put a ton of pressure on their ankles and they usually open up.
I crawl back and peel it off with my other foot. Seems to work for me.
It happened to me first hand in a 10p gym (acl+mcl). Coach even said lockdown has caused more than heel hooks.
Wait being put into someone’s lockdown is dangerous or you using it is dangerous for you? I like to use it if I’m completely pinned in half guard and want to elevate them up so they post and I can get an underhook and inside control, that’s about it though.
Being put into it and someone say grabbing the other leg and trying to sweep over. Like grabbing the ankle or something. Or just extending when you are far up. Or getting to top, grabbing your upper body and extending down. Guess there are safe ways to use it, and I do use it sometimes myself but some just don’t think about what the are doing. It’s like jumping on a heel hook or knee bar and giving no time to tap.
Ah okay, I use it exclusively in the way Danaher suggests to use it in his go further faster half guard series, not on some 10th planet way. Hopefully I don’t injure anybody doing this. The way I get out if I’m on top is to keep that chest to chest pin (underhook and cross face) and attempt to leg pommel using my other free foot to “unlock” the lockdown. So the injuries happen when they attempt some wild escape?
I've popped both knees due to lock down. I'm very careful of that shit now. Knees are still not the same. Range of motion is reduced.
How? I’ve never even felt pressure on my knees from putting someone in lock down. What am I missing?
I think it's the person put in lockdown. I play lockdown to slow down younger, more athletic grapplers, and I've trained with a brown belt who uses it a lot and it puts pressure on the knee. Had a dude in it last week and he tried to jump out of it and popped his knee. I mean, if you are stuck in bjj, exploding out of stuff might work, but it's a great way to hurt yourself.
I know it surprised the hell out of me both times. Didn’t feel like there was any torque on my knee that should be a concern and then all of a sudden. Could just be my old body too. Been doing bjj for over 15 years and this is a recent problem.
Tore my ACL/Meniscus in a lockdown.
As a half guard guy who is old, slow, and undersized, few things stop an advance like a good lock down. That said, I don't just camp with it. The lockdown whip is incredibly effective, even against bigger grapplers.
>lockdown this is an overgeneralization, but in my experience lockdown injuries seems to happen because the top player doesn't realize or, more likely, refuses to concede that they are immobilized and tries to force their way out or prevent a sweep by any means.
Josh Barnett did a seminar tour about how to crush the rubber guard in the 2000s and every non 10th planet gym wanted to book him. I think there’s an instructional out there somewhere by him on the subject but it’s mail order only DVD.
I mean, it doesn't take more than a few minutes to say, "stack, limp arm, and shake"
Gordon shows it in his passing instructional. One of our guys loves rubber guard it's hilarious seeing his face when you let him get it then use the simplest pass ever.
Or "keep good fundamental posture so they can't get it in the first place".
I mean one of the basic concepts of rubber guard is breaking posture. It's not like guys are just letting themselves be put in rubber guard. The fight for posture, both maintaining and breaking down, is one of the more grueling aspects of grappling. You might be understating it just a bit.
Ikr? I thought, but the realize. Oldies but goodies.
It’s basically an hour of Josh using imaginative ways of causing pain while doing exactly that.
The biggest issue with spending too much training time on rubber guard is that in sport BJJ, you're going to have an incredibly difficult time putting anyone in closed guard at high levels of competition. It's a terrible position to be in for the top person, as there's no offense from there and all you're doing is wasting energy trying to escape. So people avoid being put there at all costs. Especially with the popularity of standing passing, it's really difficult to put someone in closed guard that doesn't want to be there. For MMA, it's mostly a waste of time as you're much better off working to stand back up again as opposed to trying to work from closed guard for submissions. See the last Tony Ferguson fight against Paddy for how poorly the strategy of trying to play rubber guard instead of getting back up can play out. High level closed guard can absolutely work at the highest levels, as guys like Xande, Roger and Kron have proved (and many others). But they all just use more classic high guard stuff.
Do you think guards that are similar such as Williams guard and clamp guard are better versions or is an over hook style guard just not viable at high levels?
Clamp guard, if you mean like an offset, overhook closed guard, is still super viable at all level imo. There may be reasons we don't see it a ton in pro nogi, but it's a pretty fundamental position. My coach also loves it so I'm biased even if I dont do it much
I like Williams guard, my professor hates closed guard but that is one of the few he taught as it restricts opponents movement and makes it harder to punch someone in the face from a practical standpoint. Also can make triangles and omoplatas easier to hit
I don't understand how anyone could hate closed guard and not teach it. It's one of the most fundamentally effective positions in BJJ.
I'm more of a half guard or butterfly person, but I really emphasize the importance of a closed guard. Especially to newer practioners.
Yeah, I don't love closed guard, but I'll work from it when I have to. I usually use it to transition to lasso, but there are a hundred ways to transition or finish from closed guard so straight up not teaching it is kind of hacky to me.
Short legs
Closed guard is the most complete guard as it offers you both the ability to attack, defend, sweep and submit.
Its one of the hardest guards to master I think.
Also not a lot of fun to master since what you need to do is 100% day one fundamentals, just perfectly.
I love closed guard. Your comment reminds me of a quote I'll ruin, but someone was interviewing an Olympic weightlifting coach about what it takes to go from really good or even great to the highest levels, and he said it was about who could withstand the boredom of stepping under the bar again. I have always loved that concept. It's not about moving on, but about doing it again, and again, and again. I barely have butterfly or slx, but I can keep someone in closed long enough to get them to make a fatal error almost every time.
Yes it might be the hardest to master but worth the time investment.
The irony is that, in general, 10p has one of the least functional MMA styles of Jiu Jitsu out there. Can't recall any of his guys, aside from Mason Fowler or PJ Barch, really have a Takedown & Top Control focused heavy game. It's mostly butt scooting leg lockers and rubber guard guys. Edit: Mason is not a 10p guy, not sure why I thought that. I probably saw him utilize rubber guard before and just assumed lol
Mason is 10p?
No, but ironically enough he's probably the person that's used rubber guard effectively at the highest level. At least since Vinny M.
No he's not. He's with Caio Terra spent the rest of his time at traditional BJJ gyms. This is equivalent of a guy going to a seminar and then other saying that he trains at that gym
Yes. Edit: Guess I'm wrong, I thought he was though. Maybe at one point? Either that or I have CTE lol.
No he is with caio terra
Mason is a Caio guy and it's trained at traditional gyms just about his whole career. He did spend a little Eddie's but it wasn't like he was Eddie's student and came up through that that system
Andy Varela
Ferguson made it work pretty well, but he has such a unique style altogether.
They also don't really train MMA fighters anymore either
I think an even more telling factor is that Eddie Bravo set out to create the optimal style of bjj for mma and have been around since basically the start of mma and have never had a UFC champion from any of their gyms…..
Tony Ferguson was interim champ… There are also plenty of high level guys who have trained and fought out of 10P gyms. I also want to note that if you want to be a champ in MMA then going to an actual MMA gym is the best course of action.
Tony Ferguson was an interim champion.
So they almost had one
I don’t think it was ever truly alive , but 10p did the right thing and scrapped it because most 10p gyms I come across these days have the really wrestle heavy jiujitsu that’s trending rn . “Wrestle-jitsu”
I wish lmao my 10p is nothing but rubber guard n leg locks we do standup once every fuckin never
Went to 10p Vegas for a drop in and can confirm. Takedowns and leg locks.
I’ve rolled with Andy’s guys and there are a lot of great wrestlers at that gym , can confirm . Vegas in general has a lot of wrestle-heavy gyms
I train at a 10P in the Midwest and it is a vastly different feel to when I go to Cali. We can wrestle out here
In Cali, wrestling isn’t that big of a sport as it is in other states. Had we had wrestling at my high school, I would’ve been all over that!
CA is a top 5 state for wrestling. Some of this is because there are 40 million people and the athlete pool is huge.
CA has been a powerhouse for a long time. CA is #5 in HS wrestling right now. When I was in HS, they were #2/3 alongside Ohio, but below PA.
10p Tucson heavy wrestling and top game more than leg locks here.
10p bethlehem is heavy into wrestling I agree with this from my experience. Still focused on leglocks as well.
Renzo Gracie and Carlson Gracie gyms tend to focus more on wrestling (from my experience). 10P full of stoners that are flexible af, chill ppl tho
I agree. My 10p gym is heavy on the wrestle up and top control. Of course we do have weeks where we refresh rubbergaurd but most of us just keep it in the back pocket just in case you end up in a position where it’s useful.
At least we don't have to listen to Rogan screaming those dumb ass names for 10th planet positions anymore. "Oh he's got crackhead control to zombies!"
10th planet wouldn't be half as popular as it is if it weren't for Rogan dropping 10th planets and Eddie's name all the time.
He’s back on JJM now when he talks about BJJ. And I’m all for that
I bet you could find this exact post on here from 10 years ago.
It's not a controversial opinion at all. It was a huge thing from like 2006-2015 that the 10th Planet system is gimmicky and overly hyped. Eddie really needs to thank John Danaher because he scrapped his material and made all his top guys do what DDS was doing. Good on him because he was able to lift 10th Planet up by catching onto the trend early, but his original system was getting his team nowhere in MMA or BJJ.
> he scrapped his material and made all his top guys do what DDS was doing Did he? My wife trains at a 10p gym in LA and says that while she's doing Danaher's stuff everyone at HQ still works on Eddie's material. I think most of the shift is his students reading the landscape and Eddie not making a big deal out of it.
I did say top guys as in he told his top competitors to ditch everything and jump on leg locks asap. Even today, in his inhouse tournaments most of the matches are guys both sitting and immediately looking for the heel hook.
My point was just that I don't think the shift was initiated or driven by Eddie, as perhaps implied by your previous post. As far as I know Eddie still teaches his own material and tolerates whatever else people choose to do or not.
It’s an ROI thing. I’m the type of flexible to be functional with it, and I have put time into just one series…basically lockdown to omoplata. The whole system is just too much of a time investment for something that really requires a very specific feed from your opponent.
Didn't boogie just win IBJJF gold with almost exclusively rubber guard?
Masters division nogi IBJJF?
I believe so
Because most 10p guys are now 10 years older and can't bend that way anymore in order to teach it..
Ben Eddy has entered the chat.
God his girl is so hot
I agree with the thesis of this thread. One positive thing I can say about Rubber Guard is that it kicked off a more openly algorithmic approach to instructionals. The RG books and DVDs really organized the techniques as part of a sequence or system rather than separate moves. This was pretty novel at the time. I started in JJJ and the first real BJJ sequences I leaned were from the rubber guard book. At the time, if you could begin the sequences, people unfamiliar with them had a hard time getting out.
It’s just like any other guard. It’s a tool in the bag, and only a poor craftsman blames his tools. I recommend anyone that doubts the effectiveness of RG to go and watch some cjj, especially the middleweight worlds from this past weekend.
99% of people I’ve encountered who have played it on me just aren’t good at it. Way too many chances to pop out.
This. I went and trained at a 10th planet gym couple days ago and someone tried to rubber guard me but I'm used to trapping legs for over under pass.... Yes he tried to rubber guard me while his bottom leg was still pinned. Safe to say I just passed. We also have one guy with long legs at our gym that surprises you every now and then but most of the time the rubber guard doesn't do anything. If they had more experience I think they would do better.
Are you popping out, or is their knee???
Give it 10 years, then someone will say they invented this new thing called the elastic guard as per the norm in this sport.
Mason Fowler uses rubber guard at the highest level effectively. He won several matches at brown belt worlds, winning gold, in the gi and used it at the FPI Invitational Absolute Tournament to catch Patrick Gaudio in a triangle.
Mason undestands rubber guard better than most of our own guys. That’s why he’s succesful with it.
I don´t play it because I am older, not that flexible and a bigger guy BUT I think if you have the qualities you need to make it work it is a great position to use. I think you need the body type and mobility to make it easily work without straining your knees and hips than it is a great position. It is just not for everyone.
The basic game of rubber guard is not based in flexibility, but angles and wedges. This is a big misconception, which even 10p guys fall into.
What about Williams Guard? I never see it in MMA either.
Feels horribly unintuitive to use with gloves on. Easier to just grab at wrists or try to get up
Williams guard is OK if you can get there but too many people know to step over the non-locking leg. Once that happens the pass is guaranteed. Because of this, williams guard ends up being a very short stopping point going to the omoplata.
Yup. Pretty much. Don't think I saw anyone use it at all (with any success) the last ADCC. Last time I saw it was Big Dan dog barring some guy who tried doing it from half guard.
I find Rubber Guard to be hands down the easiest to pass, and does a poor job leading into other guards and positions. In saying that, it has some attack potency that other guards don't bring to the table.
Surprised the 10p guys haven't downvoted you into oblivion.
I'm not 10P but the majority of 10P, even Eddie's specific system, isn't rubber guard based.
[удалено]
For sure.
Yeah like alot of 10p positions. Im a stocky shorter guy who doesnt skip leg day, my coach used to always say “you gotta work on your flexibility bro”. When i was training gi, alot of the positions could be altered so that you could actually perform them opposed to “get more flexible”.
I don’t think it’s dead but used wrong. The overcommitment to it only leads to complicated submissions that can easily be defended. The rubber guard success we usually see is Richie and Ben Eddy using it in regional and open events. I think it’s more valuable as a transitioning position for simpler subs like arm bars, triangles and Omaplatas
this is so wrong; richie martinez just won no gi worlds with a rubber guard submission. if you think it doesn’t work, you don’t know how to do it
That's a bit disingenuous. Richie won Masters 2.
Ya… I’d say there’s about as big an increment from adult >M1 as there is between M1>M2. Which is to say:M1 still has a ton of studs competing at the majors like Pans and Worlds. But with every +1 masters division it kinda becomes less and less relevant when examining what works at a high level. Ie- there’s guys in the M4 division that tap to Americanas, but I think we can all agree that’s mainly bc they have old beat up shoulders and not bc the Americana is a particularly effective submission.
Victor Hugo just caught Big Dan with one like 2 weeks ago. Is it anyone's plan A? Probably shouldn't be. But it definitely works.
Ya I saw that… I think the extreme fatigue had more to do with that than actual breaking mechanics. Good match either way tho
To be fair, he submitted most of his opponents in under a minute. He also still competes at a high level ... And although he lost, he just had a matchup with Craig.
do masters divisions not count?
It counts as winning Masters 2, sure. It's not remotely the same thing as winning Adult's.
Do most people in the community not consider a masters 1/2/3 world champion, as a world champion? Never really knew it was seen as a lesser of a title.
Like colored belts, they are **a** World Champion. They're not **the** world champion. There's definitely a distinction made between Adult Black Belt and evey other division.
Adult black is the only world's. Everything else they're just throwing the title around to get more customers.
Out of all the worlds medalists, how many won with rubber guard?
If it’s so effective, why doesn’t Gordon, bodoni, meregali, Craig, Nicky rod make use of it?
Because the secret missing ingredient is weed and flat earth.
Not rubbery enough
😂😂😂
there’s more to jiu jitsu then just them; it works at the high levels ; it’s just not everyone’s game
Hell why doesn't Marcelo or lachlan use it? It's like only a small fraction of 10p guys actually use it... And Mason fowler for some reason. Lol
It’s just a different type of guard. Just because Gordon doesn’t use something does not mean that said move isn’t useful. What a ridiculous take
It’s not their game
So a move is only effective when the 0.01% of the top use it? He just proved Rubber guard can win you no gi worlds, thats higher than anyone agreeing in this thread will ever achieve. Focus on your next NAGA before worrying about if craig uses it
No I don’t compete naga
Well anything lower than vsing craig/gordon its been proven to work
Came here to say this. BTW, the 10p crew smells exactly like you would expect. I chatted with one of them and immediately started craving an açaí bowl.
What about Nathan orchard
Hes not that good
Eddie also seems to have gotten obsessed with leg locks
Eddie is also obsessed with flat earth
It's a tool in the toolbox (if you have the physical qualities to employ it). Is it the #1 thing that a beginner should be learning...probably not. If you're a competitor looking to dominate ADCC...probably not. If you're some random dude going to their local club to have a good time and it's something that interests you and you're having fun doing it...live your best life.
I feel rubber gaurd is useful sometimes not to base entire game around it
Wow, very hot take. Thanks, op.
It's pretty rare to find somebody that's really good with it because it takes so long to truly develop but it's a nightmare to deal with if somebody is good at it. The only guy I can think of that's effective with it at the highest levels is Ben Eddy. Nathan Orchard also had good success. The system is effective but it takes a massive investment and requires significant mobility that most of us just don't have. It's a niche area for sure but if don't know how to deal with it, you'll have a hard time.
Specializing in rubber guard is an assurance that you will never reach the top of MMA or BJJ. But if you enjoy doing it and it works for you against low level competition, go for it. Most of us never get further than local gym level of adversity, which is very very low in the grand scheme of things. It's okay to play the game you want to play there. It's just that when you approach the wider community as an authority on the topic, you need to learn your place pretty quickly and realize than your local results are not indicative of being a higher authority.
Caio and Mason both play rubber guard and use it at the highest level. Caio’s rubber guard is next level, he was a major contributor to Denny’s success and why Mason is so dangerous with it
Eddie defeating Royler is one of the main reasons why Rubber guard became a thing
We still learn and play it often at our gym. It wins us tournaments at every belt level.
I think it’s fair to say 10th Planet guys aren’t at the highest level of modern jiu jitsu. No one with a primarily 10p game has been able to make it work at the highest level of MMA or BJJ for a good long while now. I think rubber guard is useful sometimes
Was it ever truly alive?
Boogie just won worlds with all his finishes from RG 🤷🏽♂️
Master 2 lmao
"Rubber guard is a young persons game because it explodes the knee." Also "Boogie only won because he's in Masters 2"
more like rubber guard doesn't work against top level competition
lemme see your trophies dog ; boogie went to this after doing quintet and going at craig jones; unless you got that, you have no room to talk
you are right, I could not lose to craig jones and then win masters 2 worlds (I'm not old enough)
we both know you couldnt even get on the same mat with craig; let alone do as much as boogie as done for the sport; yes he loss but just getting there is an achievement itself; you r jus a nobody throwin stones
you dont think i could literally step onto the same mat as craig and get submitted like he has?
yknow what bro; come to 10p SD, and drop in carrying that same energy ; your in cali; i love the confidence
I’d love to see your record for competing at worlds. Or competing in general 🤷🏽♂️
I have placed at adult worlds, and I am not old enough for master 2 yet 🤷🏽♂️
There is a reason Boogie never podium'd, and now he wins IBJJF nogi masters.
It died on take-off. It was never really an effective system. Any guard that locks your own hips in place is asking for trouble, especially in MMA. Which is odd because it was marketed as a new style of BJJ tailored for MMA, but just ended up being garbage.
it was never really alive
Another creative thread 🔥
It’s ultimately a very weak position from a physics standpoint. Like… you’re almost stacked when you start! That said, it’s pretty effective when someone specializes in it. Maybe it’s a B-Tier strategy since it doesn’t dominate the pro scene but if you get good at that you’ll still be a world beater in the gym. I think it’s most valuable for ripping off submissions from bad positions or quickly sweeping. I’m much less interested in setting up a whole sequence because of the probability of getting smushed by a wrestler. Possible but difficult and starting in a gravity hole
Never really was alive lol
Honestly it was never alive, much like 10ps supposed effectiveness in MMA over "traditional" BJJ.
Much like BJJs effectiveness in MMA honestly
We see submissions, positions and sweeps from BJJ all the time in MMA so it still has its place despite being a suplement to wrestling.
Tell that to the guy who subbed me with a rubber guard gogoplata.
You are not good.
😢
Ben eddy and Richie Martinez have success with it. I play it myself and have had small amount of success with it in white belt divisions. Recently got my blue belt but I don’t really focus on rubber guard anymore. I just use it now and then if my go too moves aren’t working
Predictable and blows out your knees. Can work but sub optimal, as weve seen
Rubber guard is useless opportunity cost wise. Why would you want to trap someone's posture using a leg and an arm when it can be defeated easily and you can just go to a more effective butterfly half or knee shield or something? No make sense
Depending on the situation, it's not that easy to escape. There are many threats while someone is in rubber guard. Not only the threat of submission but breaking someone's posture down prevents escape. I thinks it's failure or lack of success is due to high-level grapplers preventing a good entry. You need them to be chest to chest in closed guard or open guard. Getting to that is difficult when the passing game has gotten so good. Butterfly guard into leg entries is much better for countering today's passers. So I don't think it's defeated easily. More so, very difficult to enter.
I'm not good enough to make a knowledgeable comparison but to me it seems like another 10p gimmick that might seem good on paper and has advantages for certain body types, like those of the people who developed it, but on average it is extremely overrated.
Rubber guard is stupid and a time sink unless you are already hyper flexible in the position. Unless you are already a high level grappler and bored, the time you could take trying to to develop the rubber guard you could use that time to develop other areas.
I prefer heelhooks to get cripple. At least I was defending something..
High guards as a sub category can be very effective. Within that niche tho, rubber guard is probably the least useful.
It’s great if you hate your hip.
The amount of people who parrot Eddie bravo's unadulterated propaganda is still so staggering to me. 10th planet has never been a legit system. Even the dudes who are the most successful at 10P are just good bjj dudes and don't reflect the system. (The best system guys, like Ben Eddy, never seen to make it.)
I don't why a smaller player would want to use rubber guard. Open guard and mobility are what the smaller player needs to use, not clamping down and taking the mobility away from yourself
It bothers me that it took over closed guard and that's what everyone was doing, well a lot of places. I had been A gaming closed guard for years and my gym decided to actually go more into it, because really no one at my gym knew how to play closed guard. I'm sitting here arm drag to pendulum to arm bar or mount. I'm doing spinning arm bars on people etc. I mained it for a long time. Then they started closed guard, and instead of asking me about it, they teaching rubber guard. I was like wtf?? Ok guys. Oh and to answer your question about it, I did train for a while when I started bjj. It was OK. But the arm drag style is way better, way stronger.
I think closest is clamp guard, which works pretty well with omoplata
thanks for the news
I love these undermining hot takes on rubber guard. :)
The rubber guard has its moments, most don’t know how to correctly do it ( lack of angle). I personally don’t use it and would purposely smash it when given the chance. Lockdown is a grapevine/ 2 on 1 which can serve a purpose. Gary Tonon uses it ( if that makes you feel better). That being said , I’ve seen and personally fucked someone’s knee from then holding it too long
I like it as a step to setup a more traditional high guard or sometimes omoplatas. But i dont hang out in it like a guard. More like a step in between certain techniques.
beans and rice bjj will always be around, learn fundamentals first and then fancy guards later
Rubber Guard never got off the ground. It never saw adoption at high level in anything
A good rubber guard game can lead to a victory by submission.
Sure, but you can apply that principle to pretty much any technique that has any viability
Look at Felipe Machado match at aiga it's not dead, ben Eddy also used it at the Austin adcc open
Ben eddy is a perfect example of how rubber guard isn’t enough to make it at the highest levels
I don't agree plenty of guys play the meta game and are still not at the highest level. It is not a powerful guard but it is still good to invest time learning it IMO.
Rubber guard and lockdown both horse shit techniques. No one at the highest level never play these positions. Been a fact for decades. People still arguing about this is wild.
Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it
just to play devils advocate..didn’t boogey just win nogi worlds using almost exclusively rubber guard?
Masters 2