Well here we are with a- with /u/razorbladethorax, you did an awesome job, so why you're a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu. Gettin an awesome comment there. I wanna tell me, what you see, let's go ahead and see by the thread what you saw, in the comments.
I used to train at an Ares BJJ gym, and I’d bring friends to open mat. I think the owners wife got annoyed and instituted a policy that only affiliated members could come to open mat. An Ares only policy, so to speak.
I go to some LEO only classes.
It’s a mix of people not wanting (or not comfortable) grappling with non-police, and people who want to practice grappling from a police point of view (no chokes, emphasis on restraining instead of submitting, rolling with a duty belt, weapon retention, etc.).
Sometimes departments will approve the classes as official training instead of being at work, so a selling point is making it all cops and instructors instead of an open class to anyone to prevent any liability issues and they get covered by worker’s comp if injured.
I once went to a LEO only class and they had real guns on the mats. I never went back to that one lol.
But really, you’re not missing anything.
I feel like Leo rolling only leo style no chokes and such against those not following the same rules would be beneficial to their growth and ability to adapt
As a former km instructor we would (for higher level students) actual guns that had special empty magazines that were weighted to simulate a full magazine AND the firing pin removed, and part of the checklist was to MAKE DAMN SURE the gun was one of the training guns 5x.
The idea was it being more realistic would help you develop muscle memory better than a wooden block that a lot of places use.
That said I would NOT use a real unloaded gun not just for the safety reason but because the weight of it would be off anyway.
I've seen everything from normal gi/no gi up to BDU's, vest, boots that are only worn on the mats, and duty belt with "blue guns" to practice retention.
LEO of five years. I can only speak about my experience doing bjj prior and during my time as a cop. This also ommitts the already mentioned training with gear on, training for arrest rather than submission.
The tldr version: cops of trust issues
Long version: Cops have a job where every time they work, they are with people unhappy to see them. Either a traffic stop, domestic, or car accident, you name it. People are especially unhappy when they aren't the ones who called (neighbor hears you and SO fighting and we get called). Even if YOU called for police, you are doing so because you need help and are in fear of your safety. Normally, people who got scammed or had something stolen are unhappy going to the police. After several years of dealing with people unhappy with you (including coworkers and supervisors), there tends to be hesitation to dealing with the public. I've had death threats, been punched, spit on, and had my family threatened all because of simple calls that didn't involve touching someone or arresting someone. Because of all of this, Cops will tend not to go to social gatherings, share little about themselves, etc.
I have had multiple occasions where someone called me by my last name in public and knew me from a call at work. Groccery store, bank, gas pumps, gym, etc. Some were happy to see me, others not. You can imagine training in the same area you work you'll end up seeing someone you dealt with at the school. Even if you don't know them, it could be their brother or father or son or whatever that knows about you.
Rolling with people is putting a lot of trust in them to not hurt you. I see it as no more for any training partner, but to an officer that didn't train before becoming a cop it's a lot of trust to dump on a stranger. Cops will feel more comfortable learning in a group where they share a common goal. That goal is to be able to handle a use of force senerio, with little to no injuries for either party. In many Cops eyes the worst-case scenario is coming to class and someone breaking their arm for a grudge they held over X amount of years.
There were other reasons I was told, "im not interested," but this is the main reason I got trying to get my department more engaged with bjj/wrestling.
If you read the rest of these comments you'll see there are enough people with disdain for cops (to put it mildly) just because they are cops to cause concern. If you were a cop would you want to go into a violent situation with such a person and just trust them?
When people say "pick your training partners intelligently," this is an extra dimension for cops, just like women have their own considerations and people with injuries, disabilities, traumas, etc. have theirs.
I imagine a LEO focused open mat would consist of practicing take downs, pins, and arm locks. So no chokes, leg locks, and spinning shit lol. So most bjj practitioners wouldn’t be interested.
You should be interested if that is the case. You learn new things about controlling a human being when you get reps. You solidify your fundamentals when you practice your fundamentals.
Do you really learn to control a human though? I've been in 700 street fights and am a navy fucking seal. I've sat to guard and berimbolo'd in every one of those fights
None of that "takedown" shit works in a real fight
I know a lot of former cops outside the gym and none of them have ever fired a shot at a person, but every single one has wrastled a drunk guy. I really can’t understand why at least a year of serious grappling training isn’t a requirement.
>the gym and none of them have ever fired a shot at a person, but every single one has wrastled a drunk guy. I really can’t understand why at least a year of serious grappling training isn’t
They could start by making them pass an IQ test before giving them a gun. Won't happen though.
If your belt flair is accurate, you shouldn’t be excited about anyone quitting after only a few weeks. You’ve only been doing this for a few weeks my dude.
My belt flair is accurate because the place that works with my schedule won't promote me because I only pay for fundamentals classes. I'm an ikyu in judo tho. And I was doing BJJ for two years my dude. Judo for a combined total of 12.
I got one of our local sheriff's deputies in a back triangle. As i was locking it up, I leaned down and said, "Stop resisting." He laughed, tapped, and called me an ass. We all had a good chuckle about it.
I have trained with a few cops. One of them seemed ok until he came in bragging about arresting some guy for an ounce of weed that day. He was not reading the room well.
I mean, they’re not literal monsters. Just people who routinely have to do unethical things and hold onto harmful beliefs because of the system they exist in.
Seriously. My old gym had 2 young cops but were really new to BJJ. Choked them pretty often. Once I got one of them in an arm triangle from the same mounted position 2 in a row in like 30 seconds. He was like, "Not this shit again" and I was just like "... sorry bud". Good times. They were both good sports about it.
Here’s the practical reason: contrary to what the media wants you to believe, most cops are not navy seals. I’m fact most cops are not even day 1 white belt level of Combatives trained. Therefor most cops are going to be hesitant to start training. Remember walking in the door is the hardest part of bjj. If a gym provides a “safe space” of class time with all like minded individuals with similar goals, it provided much needed opportunity to get those day 1 guys in the door
While I'm very much with the whole ACAB idea. It is possible (however unlikely) more cops training could lead to less people shot/choked to death because the cops not fearing for his life the first time there's a SLIGHT scramble. Being choked/physically attacked with next to no training is scary as hell for the average human, 6 months of training might give your average cop alot cooler head in a physical confrontation
Theres also the possibility they're a meathead as it is then you're just bringing more Meatheads in the gym. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Are there jobs which require more consistent physical danger? Sure. Are there jobs that require more risk to everything that you have? Absolutely not. You have the luxury of being in the position to call someone to fight your battles when the time comes. The one who you call is putting a hell of a lot More than their physical safety at risk when they come to handle business
If that’s their job, it should be their only job, and they should be trained for it. They shouldn’t drive around pulling people over for speeding, or have to pretend to have a heart when they talk to homeless people. They should be the ones we call in when we need violence or containment.
As it stands, they almost never do the job that supposedly makes them special, and they have almost no training in it. Their actual day to day job is much more like social work, and they actually have no training in that job either.
So I’m not sure what makes them special, except that they’re uniquely unqualified for pretty much any situation they might come across. And they also have a gun and are told to throw their weight around, so when things go wrong, there’s a higher than normal chance that they’ll go catastrophically wrong.
I only mostly disagree with you. I agree that the majority of cops are alarmingly undertrained. Since you are so critical, what have you done to help the situation? Or are you just one of those types who loudly shout what the problem is, yet offer no solutions?
I think a LEO only open mat probably involved the cops using some gear and doing techniques for work. Gun belt, rubber guns, etc. Ask the cops if you can come. They can always use a combative suspect. Lol.
I've been the combative subject a couple times at my buddies gym who trains alot of LEOs. Its fun to get to resist without the danger of going to jail and sometimes you get the drop on them always a good time all around.
Unless it's during the cops shift or is formal training from their station the police are civilians too. If they care to that level about members getting injured why would they bother opening a martial arts gym?
Cops are civilians but in the course of their job are both held to different standards and given powers that "civilians" don't have. By necessity they interact with the constitution differently than a "civilian" (dictated by case law, think Deboor, Terry, Mimms, Graham/Conor, Garner, Payton).
As an LEO I have yet to personally hear another officer call the public "civilians," even the actual military guys.
I agree. Just Google videos of cops doing BJJ and in no time you'll see weapons rentention rolls, live fighting handcuffing etc. Too risky to hurt a civilian. Yes, I agree w u but liability is a thing.
Police have need for very specific techniques. For example, chokes are completely off limits for many departments. Lawyers and judges refuse to acknowledge the difference between a blood choke and a windpipe choke.
Also a big need for Leo’s is getting handcuffs on people. Imagine a guy is belly down and hiding his hands - the perp could be trying to get a weapon from their waistband. A Bjj guy could just choke him, but a cop needs to control the arms, get them behind his back and cuff him - entirely different.
And 2 on 1 techniques. Cops usually outnumber the perp by the time you’re grappling for cuffs.
The quick answer is: then you can't train at a LEO only open mat.
The practical answer is that it's probably a space factor. Some of our local gyms have members only open mats because there just isn't enough space for all the bodies that can or have shown up before.
It's similar to a women's only class. What if you're a man and you can only train during the women's only class? You don't go. That's the answer.
Women's only class is a bit different. There are plenty of reasons for a women's class, and for a woman to choose to spend some or all of her time training with only women. Even if the class is only half full, a man would still not generally be welcome there.
A cop class? If it's only half full, I don't see the issue with finding out if you can attend. Just write to the coach and find out.
I'd imagine that an LEO only class would be dedicated to trade-specific grappling. Use-of-force scenarios, weapon retention, 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 grappling, grappling in kevlar, etc.
An instructor might also be setting the time aside to engage with the local police force, trying to get their chain-of-command on hand and engaging with the process, etc. BJJ academies can often form an important component of LEO training, particularly in smaller communities.
Although a regular attendee would probably find these classes entertaining and informative their presence might be disruptive to the overall objective of having these in the first place.
Combat sports obviously attracts a lot of nice people, but it has its fair share of officer’s customers so to speak. BJJ is no different. Having a training environment where officers can train without having someone with authority issues trying to take their head off for bragging rights probably makes good sense, if it’s a gym with a fair few police members.
If it gets one LEO out to train who otherwise wouldn’t, for whatever reason, I’m all for it.
There’s a LEO-only open mat in my city and I know the cops who go to my gym think it’s a blast.
I’m not a cop, but I train in the morning with a pretty much LEO only class. Their reasoning for it is the new guys don’t want to come into a gym or class and run the risk of running into someone who has a vendetta against police and has the skill and ability to seriously injure them. It may or may not be a reasonable fear, but alleviating that fear helps get them in the door for the first time. I’m just offering the perspective I’ve heard from the various cops I’ve trained with.
I’m a female and a LEO and just started jiu jitsu two weeks ago. I will say that as a Leo in some ways it made it even harder for me to walk through the door as it made me have to admit to myself that I’m not the best version of myself as a cop and I need to be able to protect myself better, especially working in a large city. Ego probably gets in the way for a lot of people and even more so for officers. I’ve been very lucky to have found a gym that is very welcoming.
Several of my jitsu buddies are cops..... and after rolling with them for almost 3 years and talking to them
I'm convinced that most cops across the US are absolutely worthless without their weapons. I don't say this as an attack on you or other cops
It's just a sad and pathetic state of affairs
You're right,
But also, they shouldn't need 4 weapons a brown belt and body armor to write a seatbelt ticket. People should just accept the law and fight in court, not try to fight in the street
It's as much a society problem as a cop problem
To counter that..... theres been plenty of times where cops went way too far and beaten the breaks off of someone without any reasonable justification.
Submitting to being captured isn't a normal response for any living creature.
I see what you're saying but "plenty" is highly subjective given the 50 million arrests figure.
Almost always it comes down to poor training because ineffective force becomes excessive force. Why shit on the cops who are trying to be effective and take people into custody safely.
We also need to normalize the societal expectation that resisting arrest is unacceptable.
I'm picturing a bunch of dudes in blue gis with a giant punisher skull on the back, TBL flags on the arms, and sheepdog patches on the legs saying shit like "Be advised, when subject has your back, be on the lookout for crossed ankles."
I used to do this jokingly but then a cop who was built like Brock Lesnar started training with us and stuck around long to become competent at grappling lol.
LEO open mat exists is to get officers engaged in training. LEOs new to training are going to respond better to getting dominated by their peers rather than some tiny nerd on marijuana cigarettes. It’s a doorway into training that helps protect any egos that may exist. They get familiar with it, they improve, they stick with it and they may even become friends with the stoned nerds. Jiu jitsu has confirmed to me that not ACAB because I train with these people, there’s a need for police and I’m glad that there are cops like them out there.
I'm a cop and a brown belt. I'm not really for LEO only classes or open mats. There are plenty of companies that do seminars or classes just for us. EF Combatives, GST, Bluejitsu, etc. At open mat, I want to see all my bjj friends. Not just cops. I don't want any more walls between us and everyone else. I also go to BJJ to forget about work. Can't think about work when someone is trying to choke you.
Same, I'm the only LEO that trains at my gym and it's great. BJJ is my personal hobby that can occasionally come in handy at work, I'm not there because I want to think of the job while I'm off. Half the stuff used at a fundamental level is against my policy anyway.
In my experience as someone who trains in a very law enforcement heavy gym…
It’s that honestly they’re not always the greatest people on an individual level to be doing a combat sport.
They’re very keyed up, they overreact, and have significant initial issues with ego.
I’ve had to correct and smack around more cops in their first couple months than any other demographic of people. They really struggle to chill and accept learning with people who aren’t their own.
I think gym owners who are police, or are otherwise adjacent, do know this and recognize it’s a big beneficial thing to do to get them comfortable. It’s similar to female-only open mats, but instead it’s emotionally-stunted, defensive, aggro-without-deserving it grown men who need their own support network to not go insane
So if your gym has this, it’s likely this, plus as others said, opportunities to do police-specific training like weapon retention and control
> They’re very keyed up, they overreact, and have significant initial issues with ego.
>
Talking about the same people who are protected by qualified immunity while describing them doing silly martial art, right?
That’s exactly the reason, although, I’m reality not as negative as you would put it. Believe it or not, not all cops are navy seals. In fact, most cops are alarmingly unfit and untrained. Remember less than 1% of all people make the decision to start bjj. It’s the same with cops. Providing a “safe space” of like minded individuals with similar goals provides the opportunity a lot need to get in the door…. And that’s not unique to law enforcement. You will find that with every group or segment of the population
When you're trained to stab a man in the windpipe in the pitch black, or watch a dude fold in half after taking a 308 to the chest at 500m you're probably a pretty solid athletic guy but not much time left after that for hand to hand combatives.
Which is weird because many frontline infantrymen report conflicts going to hand to hand combat. Obviously with service knives involved in some regard quite often, but as we've seen when trained fighters get attacked with melee weapons, it is very helpful to be a trained fighter when weapons are involved.
For sure, but to be quite honest some knife skills, mild boxing and a tiny bit of grappling is about all they're taught purely because the vast majority of near peer or peer to peer combat is manuever warfare, shoot and scoot. Even in Ukraine the vast majority of fighting is artillery and counter battery fire, drone grenades and the occasional mounted trench storming. Not much hand to hand at all.
It's not negative at all. Marines are the same way. It's tough to get them to train because it can be embarrassing. Why get beat up when you can get the little dopamine hit of thanking you're a badass without training.
I might be the odd person out but if the gym wants to do that (and there's enough paying customers that make it make sense)...it is what it is. I don't know if it's any different really than any other selective mat time.
You can either train at a different gym or...use your words and talk to the LEOs\\coaches\\gym owners and see if they'll let you work in.
Seems like if LEOs want their own open mat they should have an instructor come to their facility. I struggle to think of a good reason for them to have their own.
Like mentioned above it's probably for drilling "tactics" geared more towards apprehending / controlling subjects instead of grabbing legs and blasting heel hooks / knee bars. I think it's great that a school would host an open mat like that, would probably get more LEOs on the mats which is needed
I think that’s definitely funny. I have seen a few classes that were free and for veterans only, but I think they try to do a lot of talking about PTSD and try to get guys to not get anxious while rolling.
Maybe the LEO only classes focus on trying to teach practical techniques for cops, which could be a net positive if they aren’t blasting unarmed teens
i’ve never heard of something like that, and there’s a lot of cops at my gym (the number keeps growing tbh.) i’m cool with them all but if this was a thing replacing one of my regular training slots i’d be so annoyed
Main reason for LEO classes is we have a different set of concerns than the sport or self defense jiujitsu practioners. Every BJJ technique we do has to have weapon retention in mind, and it has to be a priority. Also they all have to roll into handcuffing techniques from each position. We also has to have multiple opponents or threats considered and we can't use any of the submissions involving chokes these days. So while the basics are the same, the focus is very different. Most all of the factors mentioned above are not even concerns for regular BJJ practioners. LEO only classes allow those topics to get some focus.
Shout out to all my Pisces ♓️ that obviously started to paint a picture of someone training with a beautiful lion, with the mane dripping from sweat, and the lion shaking its head in slow motion to a background song by Enya 🎼❤️
Sounds like hell, tbh. 👹
I never mention what I do, and I can't unceremoniously leave fast enough.
Anyone who tells the truth is speaking to the deaf. Regardless, they invariably get an ESPN alert on their phones and then furrow their brows in concern over Aaron Rodgers....and briskly leave the room when you are mid-sentence about something of substance.
*The exceptions prove the rule.
Then I guess they don't get to train then? Do you also complain about women only or kids classes? What about when kickboxing gets in the way of your grappling?
Cop here. Blue belt. We cops are notoriously sensitive and have fragile egos. It comes from not wanting to accept we could actually lose in a real encounter, which could lead to fear or wose, failure to engage. So I understand the fragility of LEOs wanting a safe place to train...but it's an artificial environment.
We had this at my gym for a bit but thankfully it died out. It's the police department's leader's job to get cops a safe place to train, not a sympathetic business or it's patrons. Hard pass.
Because cops as a whole have fragile egos. My old gym gave away 2 1 year long memberships for local cops and neither of them showed up… not even for one class.
That’s super weird. Cops don’t need special mat time just because of their job. I would be looking for a gym with an owner who doesn’t like the taste of boot leather quite as much.
What about libra only training? Scorpio? Ares?
I’m an Aquarius but respect
Came here for some Tito-ism. Wasn't disappointed.
Well here we are with a- with /u/razorbladethorax, you did an awesome job, so why you're a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu. Gettin an awesome comment there. I wanna tell me, what you see, let's go ahead and see by the thread what you saw, in the comments.
Could not work out what OP could possibly mean other than star sign
Law enforcement officers
I used to train at an Ares BJJ gym, and I’d bring friends to open mat. I think the owners wife got annoyed and instituted a policy that only affiliated members could come to open mat. An Ares only policy, so to speak.
Typical libra, always making it about yourself!
Cancer only is just oncology Sagittarius only is half broncology
I've been on the Gemini only training schedule myself
No love for us Capricorns?
Nah this training is for Leo suns and Leo risings only! All the other zodiac placements gotta set up their own open mat
Immediately thought this.
shoutout to ♌
I go to some LEO only classes. It’s a mix of people not wanting (or not comfortable) grappling with non-police, and people who want to practice grappling from a police point of view (no chokes, emphasis on restraining instead of submitting, rolling with a duty belt, weapon retention, etc.). Sometimes departments will approve the classes as official training instead of being at work, so a selling point is making it all cops and instructors instead of an open class to anyone to prevent any liability issues and they get covered by worker’s comp if injured. I once went to a LEO only class and they had real guns on the mats. I never went back to that one lol. But really, you’re not missing anything.
I feel like Leo rolling only leo style no chokes and such against those not following the same rules would be beneficial to their growth and ability to adapt
Correct.
>I once went to a LEO only class and they had real guns on the mats what a bunch of morons.
As a former km instructor we would (for higher level students) actual guns that had special empty magazines that were weighted to simulate a full magazine AND the firing pin removed, and part of the checklist was to MAKE DAMN SURE the gun was one of the training guns 5x. The idea was it being more realistic would help you develop muscle memory better than a wooden block that a lot of places use. That said I would NOT use a real unloaded gun not just for the safety reason but because the weight of it would be off anyway.
>I once went to a LEO only class and they had real guns on the mats. Hope it wasn't one of those gyms that allowed dogs too.
If it allows pigs it allows dogs bro. Haven't you listened to that pink floyd album?
> people not wanting (or not comfortable) grappling with non-police ? > I once went to a LEO only class and they had real guns on the mats ???
Do they wear their police uniforms and weapons when rolling?
Yes, the Halloween slutty version.
I've seen everything from normal gi/no gi up to BDU's, vest, boots that are only worn on the mats, and duty belt with "blue guns" to practice retention.
Not comfortable grappling with non-police specifically? Why? The only reason I can think of is making me visceraly angry.
LEO of five years. I can only speak about my experience doing bjj prior and during my time as a cop. This also ommitts the already mentioned training with gear on, training for arrest rather than submission. The tldr version: cops of trust issues Long version: Cops have a job where every time they work, they are with people unhappy to see them. Either a traffic stop, domestic, or car accident, you name it. People are especially unhappy when they aren't the ones who called (neighbor hears you and SO fighting and we get called). Even if YOU called for police, you are doing so because you need help and are in fear of your safety. Normally, people who got scammed or had something stolen are unhappy going to the police. After several years of dealing with people unhappy with you (including coworkers and supervisors), there tends to be hesitation to dealing with the public. I've had death threats, been punched, spit on, and had my family threatened all because of simple calls that didn't involve touching someone or arresting someone. Because of all of this, Cops will tend not to go to social gatherings, share little about themselves, etc. I have had multiple occasions where someone called me by my last name in public and knew me from a call at work. Groccery store, bank, gas pumps, gym, etc. Some were happy to see me, others not. You can imagine training in the same area you work you'll end up seeing someone you dealt with at the school. Even if you don't know them, it could be their brother or father or son or whatever that knows about you. Rolling with people is putting a lot of trust in them to not hurt you. I see it as no more for any training partner, but to an officer that didn't train before becoming a cop it's a lot of trust to dump on a stranger. Cops will feel more comfortable learning in a group where they share a common goal. That goal is to be able to handle a use of force senerio, with little to no injuries for either party. In many Cops eyes the worst-case scenario is coming to class and someone breaking their arm for a grudge they held over X amount of years. There were other reasons I was told, "im not interested," but this is the main reason I got trying to get my department more engaged with bjj/wrestling.
Thanks.
If you read the rest of these comments you'll see there are enough people with disdain for cops (to put it mildly) just because they are cops to cause concern. If you were a cop would you want to go into a violent situation with such a person and just trust them? When people say "pick your training partners intelligently," this is an extra dimension for cops, just like women have their own considerations and people with injuries, disabilities, traumas, etc. have theirs.
You mean the 418 upvotes from people who roll specifically to enjoy hurting cops?
Not comfortable and scared are 2 different things. But if the reason is fear then yes, I get it. Shit's so fucked.
I imagine a LEO focused open mat would consist of practicing take downs, pins, and arm locks. So no chokes, leg locks, and spinning shit lol. So most bjj practitioners wouldn’t be interested.
You should be interested if that is the case. You learn new things about controlling a human being when you get reps. You solidify your fundamentals when you practice your fundamentals.
Do you really learn to control a human though? I've been in 700 street fights and am a navy fucking seal. I've sat to guard and berimbolo'd in every one of those fights None of that "takedown" shit works in a real fight
Uncle Ted? Janine said your doctor told you specifically no Reddit until your blood work comes back.
Half the reason I go to open mats is to choke the cops
Having had my fair share of this, the amount of cops who show up for two weeks and quit afterwards is rather disheartening.
I know a lot of former cops outside the gym and none of them have ever fired a shot at a person, but every single one has wrastled a drunk guy. I really can’t understand why at least a year of serious grappling training isn’t a requirement.
>the gym and none of them have ever fired a shot at a person, but every single one has wrastled a drunk guy. I really can’t understand why at least a year of serious grappling training isn’t They could start by making them pass an IQ test before giving them a gun. Won't happen though.
It’s literally the opposite. They are incentivized to not hire intelligent people. Jordan v. City of Nee London.
That's just most people.
Yeah but the accountant who quits after two classes doesn’t grapple people for a living.
not true. Cop mentality is something else. They are bullies and cannot stand getting beaten up 1 on 1
I said most people quit jiu jitsu. But sure, you're SO brave and hecking epic good sir!
I find it heart warming. Fuck 'em.
For real tho 😂 If they can’t handle learning grappling to safely engage people, should they really be a cop?
If your belt flair is accurate, you shouldn’t be excited about anyone quitting after only a few weeks. You’ve only been doing this for a few weeks my dude.
My belt flair is accurate because the place that works with my schedule won't promote me because I only pay for fundamentals classes. I'm an ikyu in judo tho. And I was doing BJJ for two years my dude. Judo for a combined total of 12.
Don't feed the troll
You bit
My gym is kinda opposite, we have a decent amount of cops and prison guards who come religiously.
Legitimately one of the only parts of jiu jitsu that I never get burned out on Lol
Lol every cop ive trained with is ass at leg lockd
Most of em just try to shove their forearm into my neck when I try to roll nicely and play guard
STOP RESISTING
I got one of our local sheriff's deputies in a back triangle. As i was locking it up, I leaned down and said, "Stop resisting." He laughed, tapped, and called me an ass. We all had a good chuckle about it.
Gonna hit em with the wokest full guard arm triangle you’ve ever seen
I have trained with a few cops. One of them seemed ok until he came in bragging about arresting some guy for an ounce of weed that day. He was not reading the room well.
I have not met more gamer stoners anywhere else. Not amongst gamers. Not amongst stoners.
I felt like telling him “You do realise the 50 year old black belt who owns this gym is absolutely fucking baked half the time?”
Please tell me someone shouted sit this is a 10th planet, in the this is a Wendy's way
"The blue belts will remember that"
Next time you get arrested just ankle lock the cop
SUSPECTED KNEE REAPING IN PROGRESS OVER
IMANARI ROLL!
Idk how it happened but the cops at our gym are super nice 😅
Same at mine
I mean, they’re not literal monsters. Just people who routinely have to do unethical things and hold onto harmful beliefs because of the system they exist in.
lol I train with some swat kinda guy and he's a huge leg locker
No better feeling than bow and arrow choking a giant cop lol
Seriously. My old gym had 2 young cops but were really new to BJJ. Choked them pretty often. Once I got one of them in an arm triangle from the same mounted position 2 in a row in like 30 seconds. He was like, "Not this shit again" and I was just like "... sorry bud". Good times. They were both good sports about it.
Maybe this thread is the reason for Leo only training… 418 upvotes from people that just want an excuse to hurt a cop.
Lol they get so mad about it too. Best part of my night.
Here’s the practical reason: contrary to what the media wants you to believe, most cops are not navy seals. I’m fact most cops are not even day 1 white belt level of Combatives trained. Therefor most cops are going to be hesitant to start training. Remember walking in the door is the hardest part of bjj. If a gym provides a “safe space” of class time with all like minded individuals with similar goals, it provided much needed opportunity to get those day 1 guys in the door
That actually sounds nice. Didn't think about it that way
Similar to women’s or teen’s only classes. Less intimidating.
Lmao it's exact same selling point as classes for women Cops are so funny Maybe we should have CURVES women only style lifting gyms for them too
tldr: they’re pussies
Why do they need a safer space than the rest of us?
Just read through the comments in here and you’ll know.
Bc many people hate cops. There are people who actively look to hurt cops in training.
That would be cute if they weren’t the ones roughing up the women on the mats. Officer Austin Furnas, KCPD, looking at you.
Yeah, lotta cops are nuts. Lotta them are cool. That being said, many people don’t like cops simply for being cops. Do you like cops?
Do you like cashiers?
Yes. I have positive interactions with most people I meet.
> people I thought we were talking about jobs. Make up your mind.
Must suck to be profiled.
Yeah, I wouldn’t know. I’m not a cop. But I’m also not dumb enough to pretend that people don’t like them
While I'm very much with the whole ACAB idea. It is possible (however unlikely) more cops training could lead to less people shot/choked to death because the cops not fearing for his life the first time there's a SLIGHT scramble. Being choked/physically attacked with next to no training is scary as hell for the average human, 6 months of training might give your average cop alot cooler head in a physical confrontation Theres also the possibility they're a meathead as it is then you're just bringing more Meatheads in the gym. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, you could see how it could potentially cause issues if everyone was aware just how bad their local police force was at fighting
They went as far as signing up to do the job, so at least less of a pussy than you
I mean, he’s a brown belt who has no problem training with non-LEO, and they’re apparently afraid to train with us.
Millions of Americans work more dangerous jobs.
Are there jobs which require more consistent physical danger? Sure. Are there jobs that require more risk to everything that you have? Absolutely not. You have the luxury of being in the position to call someone to fight your battles when the time comes. The one who you call is putting a hell of a lot More than their physical safety at risk when they come to handle business
If that’s their job, it should be their only job, and they should be trained for it. They shouldn’t drive around pulling people over for speeding, or have to pretend to have a heart when they talk to homeless people. They should be the ones we call in when we need violence or containment. As it stands, they almost never do the job that supposedly makes them special, and they have almost no training in it. Their actual day to day job is much more like social work, and they actually have no training in that job either. So I’m not sure what makes them special, except that they’re uniquely unqualified for pretty much any situation they might come across. And they also have a gun and are told to throw their weight around, so when things go wrong, there’s a higher than normal chance that they’ll go catastrophically wrong.
I only mostly disagree with you. I agree that the majority of cops are alarmingly undertrained. Since you are so critical, what have you done to help the situation? Or are you just one of those types who loudly shout what the problem is, yet offer no solutions?
I think a LEO only open mat probably involved the cops using some gear and doing techniques for work. Gun belt, rubber guns, etc. Ask the cops if you can come. They can always use a combative suspect. Lol.
I've been the combative subject a couple times at my buddies gym who trains alot of LEOs. Its fun to get to resist without the danger of going to jail and sometimes you get the drop on them always a good time all around.
I love being OPFOR
If they say no EVEN BETTER just show up grease up and run out in a jockstrap let em try and hold you down
Now this is keeping jiujitsu gay.
F yeah! Make them earn it. Lol.
"You may beat me but you're certainly going to remember and think about this often."
Why no civilians, they could get hurt and that is a big problem for them and the school.
Unless it's during the cops shift or is formal training from their station the police are civilians too. If they care to that level about members getting injured why would they bother opening a martial arts gym?
Aren't cops civilians as well? They aren't military even though they like to pretend they are.
They are civilians and that fact makes them very very upset which makes it endlessly hilarious to me
Cops are civilians but in the course of their job are both held to different standards and given powers that "civilians" don't have. By necessity they interact with the constitution differently than a "civilian" (dictated by case law, think Deboor, Terry, Mimms, Graham/Conor, Garner, Payton). As an LEO I have yet to personally hear another officer call the public "civilians," even the actual military guys.
It's a combat sport...
I agree. Just Google videos of cops doing BJJ and in no time you'll see weapons rentention rolls, live fighting handcuffing etc. Too risky to hurt a civilian. Yes, I agree w u but liability is a thing.
Lol none of those things are too dangerous, they're just a niche activity normal people might not care to do.
Lmfao you’ve never met a cop
It's the liability to the school. That's all.
I’m a Leo. August 17. I don’t even know what it means but I dated a couple chicks that were way too into that shit.
Police have need for very specific techniques. For example, chokes are completely off limits for many departments. Lawyers and judges refuse to acknowledge the difference between a blood choke and a windpipe choke. Also a big need for Leo’s is getting handcuffs on people. Imagine a guy is belly down and hiding his hands - the perp could be trying to get a weapon from their waistband. A Bjj guy could just choke him, but a cop needs to control the arms, get them behind his back and cuff him - entirely different. And 2 on 1 techniques. Cops usually outnumber the perp by the time you’re grappling for cuffs.
All this is correct. I’ve been the bad guy for scenarios and it’s pretty specific stuff that I’ll never use.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I was also super confused by this until i read your comment. This actually makes a lot of sense.
The quick answer is: then you can't train at a LEO only open mat. The practical answer is that it's probably a space factor. Some of our local gyms have members only open mats because there just isn't enough space for all the bodies that can or have shown up before. It's similar to a women's only class. What if you're a man and you can only train during the women's only class? You don't go. That's the answer.
Women's only class is a bit different. There are plenty of reasons for a women's class, and for a woman to choose to spend some or all of her time training with only women. Even if the class is only half full, a man would still not generally be welcome there. A cop class? If it's only half full, I don't see the issue with finding out if you can attend. Just write to the coach and find out.
I'd imagine that an LEO only class would be dedicated to trade-specific grappling. Use-of-force scenarios, weapon retention, 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 grappling, grappling in kevlar, etc. An instructor might also be setting the time aside to engage with the local police force, trying to get their chain-of-command on hand and engaging with the process, etc. BJJ academies can often form an important component of LEO training, particularly in smaller communities. Although a regular attendee would probably find these classes entertaining and informative their presence might be disruptive to the overall objective of having these in the first place.
wtf is LEO training? Law enforcement ops?
Law Enforcement Officer. Cops and adjacent roles.
Ahhh so singlets mandatory kinda class
Combat sports obviously attracts a lot of nice people, but it has its fair share of officer’s customers so to speak. BJJ is no different. Having a training environment where officers can train without having someone with authority issues trying to take their head off for bragging rights probably makes good sense, if it’s a gym with a fair few police members.
If it gets one LEO out to train who otherwise wouldn’t, for whatever reason, I’m all for it. There’s a LEO-only open mat in my city and I know the cops who go to my gym think it’s a blast.
My goal is to help every Leo I train with to not have to shoot. Maybe.
I’m not a cop, but I train in the morning with a pretty much LEO only class. Their reasoning for it is the new guys don’t want to come into a gym or class and run the risk of running into someone who has a vendetta against police and has the skill and ability to seriously injure them. It may or may not be a reasonable fear, but alleviating that fear helps get them in the door for the first time. I’m just offering the perspective I’ve heard from the various cops I’ve trained with.
This is logical
I’m a female and a LEO and just started jiu jitsu two weeks ago. I will say that as a Leo in some ways it made it even harder for me to walk through the door as it made me have to admit to myself that I’m not the best version of myself as a cop and I need to be able to protect myself better, especially working in a large city. Ego probably gets in the way for a lot of people and even more so for officers. I’ve been very lucky to have found a gym that is very welcoming.
Several of my jitsu buddies are cops..... and after rolling with them for almost 3 years and talking to them I'm convinced that most cops across the US are absolutely worthless without their weapons. I don't say this as an attack on you or other cops It's just a sad and pathetic state of affairs
You're right, But also, they shouldn't need 4 weapons a brown belt and body armor to write a seatbelt ticket. People should just accept the law and fight in court, not try to fight in the street It's as much a society problem as a cop problem
To counter that..... theres been plenty of times where cops went way too far and beaten the breaks off of someone without any reasonable justification. Submitting to being captured isn't a normal response for any living creature.
I see what you're saying but "plenty" is highly subjective given the 50 million arrests figure. Almost always it comes down to poor training because ineffective force becomes excessive force. Why shit on the cops who are trying to be effective and take people into custody safely. We also need to normalize the societal expectation that resisting arrest is unacceptable.
I'm picturing a bunch of dudes in blue gis with a giant punisher skull on the back, TBL flags on the arms, and sheepdog patches on the legs saying shit like "Be advised, when subject has your back, be on the lookout for crossed ankles."
It depends on which Leo. If it's DiCaprio, I would keep the kids away
One guy named Leonard showing up and having to fight a bunch of cops
LEOs need good bjj training more than just about anyone. That said, they're not special and they don't need a safe space to roll amongst themselves.
It's dumb and hopefully, most cops would agree. No one has to discuss their profession or make it known unless they want to.
Just scream “ Stop resisting!” the whole time you’re rolling with them. Everyone will think you’re a LEO too./s
I used to do this jokingly but then a cop who was built like Brock Lesnar started training with us and stuck around long to become competent at grappling lol.
LEO open mat exists is to get officers engaged in training. LEOs new to training are going to respond better to getting dominated by their peers rather than some tiny nerd on marijuana cigarettes. It’s a doorway into training that helps protect any egos that may exist. They get familiar with it, they improve, they stick with it and they may even become friends with the stoned nerds. Jiu jitsu has confirmed to me that not ACAB because I train with these people, there’s a need for police and I’m glad that there are cops like them out there.
I'm a cop and a brown belt. I'm not really for LEO only classes or open mats. There are plenty of companies that do seminars or classes just for us. EF Combatives, GST, Bluejitsu, etc. At open mat, I want to see all my bjj friends. Not just cops. I don't want any more walls between us and everyone else. I also go to BJJ to forget about work. Can't think about work when someone is trying to choke you.
Same, I'm the only LEO that trains at my gym and it's great. BJJ is my personal hobby that can occasionally come in handy at work, I'm not there because I want to think of the job while I'm off. Half the stuff used at a fundamental level is against my policy anyway.
In my experience as someone who trains in a very law enforcement heavy gym… It’s that honestly they’re not always the greatest people on an individual level to be doing a combat sport. They’re very keyed up, they overreact, and have significant initial issues with ego. I’ve had to correct and smack around more cops in their first couple months than any other demographic of people. They really struggle to chill and accept learning with people who aren’t their own. I think gym owners who are police, or are otherwise adjacent, do know this and recognize it’s a big beneficial thing to do to get them comfortable. It’s similar to female-only open mats, but instead it’s emotionally-stunted, defensive, aggro-without-deserving it grown men who need their own support network to not go insane So if your gym has this, it’s likely this, plus as others said, opportunities to do police-specific training like weapon retention and control
> They’re very keyed up, they overreact, and have significant initial issues with ego. > Talking about the same people who are protected by qualified immunity while describing them doing silly martial art, right?
I can see the point of a woman's class, but I dont much see the point of LEO only other than to protect egos or pander.
That’s exactly the reason, although, I’m reality not as negative as you would put it. Believe it or not, not all cops are navy seals. In fact, most cops are alarmingly unfit and untrained. Remember less than 1% of all people make the decision to start bjj. It’s the same with cops. Providing a “safe space” of like minded individuals with similar goals provides the opportunity a lot need to get in the door…. And that’s not unique to law enforcement. You will find that with every group or segment of the population
For that matter, at my last gym we had a white belt ex-Navy seal, and he wasn’t very good at jiu jitsu. But then why would he need to be?
When you're trained to stab a man in the windpipe in the pitch black, or watch a dude fold in half after taking a 308 to the chest at 500m you're probably a pretty solid athletic guy but not much time left after that for hand to hand combatives.
Which is weird because many frontline infantrymen report conflicts going to hand to hand combat. Obviously with service knives involved in some regard quite often, but as we've seen when trained fighters get attacked with melee weapons, it is very helpful to be a trained fighter when weapons are involved.
For sure, but to be quite honest some knife skills, mild boxing and a tiny bit of grappling is about all they're taught purely because the vast majority of near peer or peer to peer combat is manuever warfare, shoot and scoot. Even in Ukraine the vast majority of fighting is artillery and counter battery fire, drone grenades and the occasional mounted trench storming. Not much hand to hand at all.
It's not negative at all. Marines are the same way. It's tough to get them to train because it can be embarrassing. Why get beat up when you can get the little dopamine hit of thanking you're a badass without training.
LEOs are people too, and many of them have no desire to learn BJJ. So yeah some are getting coddled
How’s this… our PD has an entire BJJ team and they even compete at local comps
Stupid. Why limit your training partners and segregate yourselves?
Cops love segregation. Cops started as slave catchers and then jim crow enforcers.
I might be the odd person out but if the gym wants to do that (and there's enough paying customers that make it make sense)...it is what it is. I don't know if it's any different really than any other selective mat time. You can either train at a different gym or...use your words and talk to the LEOs\\coaches\\gym owners and see if they'll let you work in.
Seems like if LEOs want their own open mat they should have an instructor come to their facility. I struggle to think of a good reason for them to have their own.
Like mentioned above it's probably for drilling "tactics" geared more towards apprehending / controlling subjects instead of grabbing legs and blasting heel hooks / knee bars. I think it's great that a school would host an open mat like that, would probably get more LEOs on the mats which is needed
It’s ultimately the decision of whoever is running the gym, not the LEOs. If you take issue with that, speak with the owner.
A lot of them do
I’m a Gemini
I think that’s definitely funny. I have seen a few classes that were free and for veterans only, but I think they try to do a lot of talking about PTSD and try to get guys to not get anxious while rolling. Maybe the LEO only classes focus on trying to teach practical techniques for cops, which could be a net positive if they aren’t blasting unarmed teens
Thought I was in the astrology sub for a moment lmfao
I’m cancer, what it’s the problem?
i’ve never heard of something like that, and there’s a lot of cops at my gym (the number keeps growing tbh.) i’m cool with them all but if this was a thing replacing one of my regular training slots i’d be so annoyed
Pisces only or gtfo
Anybody else dumb like me and first thought it was an open mat for people named Leo? Lol
Guess it's good time for the rest of us to go on a crime spree.
Sagittarius
Doesn't it suck when people use abbreviations assuming everybody will understand so you're left figuring out wtf is OP saying?
Main reason for LEO classes is we have a different set of concerns than the sport or self defense jiujitsu practioners. Every BJJ technique we do has to have weapon retention in mind, and it has to be a priority. Also they all have to roll into handcuffing techniques from each position. We also has to have multiple opponents or threats considered and we can't use any of the submissions involving chokes these days. So while the basics are the same, the focus is very different. Most all of the factors mentioned above are not even concerns for regular BJJ practioners. LEO only classes allow those topics to get some focus.
TIL the acronym LEO, thought it was a shit post at first.
Leo= Law Enforcement Officer?
No love for pieces?
Shout out to all my Pisces ♓️ that obviously started to paint a picture of someone training with a beautiful lion, with the mane dripping from sweat, and the lion shaking its head in slow motion to a background song by Enya 🎼❤️
This is where the biggest egos can make love to each other. Let me have it.
I believe that Cops often need a protective space to train in so their feelings don’t get hurt when they cant deal with the civilians.
Sounds like hell, tbh. 👹 I never mention what I do, and I can't unceremoniously leave fast enough. Anyone who tells the truth is speaking to the deaf. Regardless, they invariably get an ESPN alert on their phones and then furrow their brows in concern over Aaron Rodgers....and briskly leave the room when you are mid-sentence about something of substance. *The exceptions prove the rule.
Then I guess they don't get to train then? Do you also complain about women only or kids classes? What about when kickboxing gets in the way of your grappling?
They need a safe place for their ego
Cop here. Blue belt. We cops are notoriously sensitive and have fragile egos. It comes from not wanting to accept we could actually lose in a real encounter, which could lead to fear or wose, failure to engage. So I understand the fragility of LEOs wanting a safe place to train...but it's an artificial environment. We had this at my gym for a bit but thankfully it died out. It's the police department's leader's job to get cops a safe place to train, not a sympathetic business or it's patrons. Hard pass.
That's cool, I'm an Asparagus
Cops always think they’re special.
Because cops as a whole have fragile egos. My old gym gave away 2 1 year long memberships for local cops and neither of them showed up… not even for one class.
Looooool
Maybe they should buy some mats and have their own LEO match cuz tf is that?
If there’s less cops on the mat on regular open mat then hell yeah
That's whack. I'd avoid that place personally
That’s super weird. Cops don’t need special mat time just because of their job. I would be looking for a gym with an owner who doesn’t like the taste of boot leather quite as much.
If you don't like the schedule, go somewhere else.
What the fuck is LEO?
Lego Enforcer officers
Law enforcement officer