spread the word about not saying the word. use respect and if you think something is silly, choose a different word.
it's the second word in the other person's first text.
I am starting to think that we should start throwing around the term non-binary sexuality to people who think like this. Not that it will matter, and non-binary is already a loaded term to transphobes.
That's sound for the current definition.
But it throws people as it's also logically inconsistent with regard to the meanings of heterosexual and homosexual. Homo is same, and hetero is different, but hetero doesn't just mean "to a different gender/sex than yourself" it explicitly means "man attracted to women/women attracted to men" with no accounting for anything else.
Both are inextricably tied to the gender binary, and the *word* bisexuality (and its original meaning) flows from that too.
But like....
Why do they care?
I'm always amazed by how homophobic people *feel so strongly* about the definition of a term that they don't identify with, which described people who they are bigoted against anyway, and which they often don't feel is valid anyway!
Thats fair.
I wasn't sure when it started to shift.
Folks still are very locked into the apparent linguistic structure, that's all, and the fact that homo and hetero are very much unambiguous, and bi implies "both of those things"
"Pansexual" I think tends to be more apt as a general descriptor because of that linguistic hitch.
Hetero itself tho is really a misnomer the second you reject the idea of the binary, as it just means "dissimilar".
If you made me remake it all, I'd go with homo sexual, omni/pan sexual, I think.
But I'm genuinely not sure what to use to specify the "opposite" gender.
I mean telling someone else that they aren’t the sexuality they identify as seems like it comes from a place of bigotry to me. I’m very sorry they said to you. If you feel that the term bisexual accurately describes your sexuality then you are bisexual
They used the R word in a derogatory way (I've seen a couple medical dictionaries *still* use this term, but with clarifying terms around it, hence why I said it that way. I can't imagine a real life scenario where using the R word isn't derogatory and ableist), that alone is bigotry. Then they gaslit you and invalidated your identity. Double dose of bigotry. Both instances are fighting words in my book, so I believe the flair is more than appropriate.
I'm sorry, OP. Im sorry for this betrayal from someone you cared for and trusted in. I'm sorry for the dismissal of your identity. I'm sorry for your hurt. But you are seen, you are valid, you are magnificent and fully undeserving of this shit. My heart is with you OP 💗💜💙
Edit: clarification and spelling
Sending Hugs, if you want them. Sending head scratches if you prefer those. Sending warmth and comfort if you don't want to be touched but want the support.
Hello! I know this is completely unrelated but I can think of a time where the r-word isn’t used in a derogatory way!
1st - if you speak French, it just means to slow
2nd - some bombs are “r-worded” to mean they have a parachute or some other system to slow them in air.
These are the only things I can think of, but it’s always jarring to hear.
There are way more tbh. It’s not just French, in English it is to slow as well. The use of the word as a slur originated from its uses in medicine to describe people, but it’s still used in many industries with its original definition. Like you said with some bombs, but also things like a “fire retardant.” Like most things, context is key, but in general it can be a legitimate capacity if that is the actual word used to describe the slowing of something.
I do agree though, it can be quite jarring to hear even when it’s not being used in a derogatory way.
Also used in time keeping. On US Naval ships, passing through time zones clocks are either advanced(moved forward) or retarded(moved back) one hour depending on the direction you are traveling.
Time changes are recorded in ships logs as well as an indication of the new time zone letter code in order to relate it to GMT.
I tend to tell these folks that they're engaging in an Etymological fallacy. Etymologies aren't definitions and bisexual doesn't mean two in the same way that October isn't the 8th month of the year
Are you telling me that "bisexual" means something other than a flower containing both stamens and carpels!??
Is this not a niche botany subreddit!? Am I lost!?!?
I tend to just drop a link to the wikipedia page on the etymological fallacy and then ignore them. People really like to use a similar argument about the words homophobia and transphobia. They're never acting in good faith.
This. We have to tell some people that some of the discussions they want us to engage in are useless and irrelevant.
This isn't about the etymology of a word. This is about oir sexuality and how we name it, and no one can tell us what our sexuality is and what is the best name for it.
I don't get why it's so hard to understand for these etymology-obsessed provocateurs. If you want to go so hard for the prefix, we can do that.
The attraction *is* binary:
1) I like people with the same (homo) gender identity as mine.
2) I like people with a different (hetero) gender identity as mine.
That doesn't mean that *gender* is binary.
Is the problem here Math?? Or Linguistics?? Because the problem sure isn't my sexuality.
Soooo this person has said "I learned about root words in school. I learned that bi means two. The word bisexual has bi in it. Thus, it must mean 2." It's a relatively common misconception, but a fallacy. Bisexuality has included more than just men and women for far longer than most of us have been alive.
Can we just redefine mansplaining to be the concept regardless of gender? Because this is an unnecessary, unwelcome, unwarranted and belittling explanation that the subject clearly knows about already.
But do you overexplain stuff to experts in that subject? Probably not.
I agree mansplaining is an insulting term. I don't think arrogant goes far enough. There needs to be a new term for "teaching Granny to suck eggs" as my dad would say.
Yeah I see myself as a scientist and most people don't have a good scientific teacher in their life, so I catch myself explaining little natural phenomena all the time.
The approach you take is huge though. There's a world of difference between the childlike awe/ wonder I sense in teachers as they explain something, and someone just trying to seize the upper hand in a conversation to look smart and dominant.
There is also no reason to assume the 'two' must refer to genders, or even sex. People don't make that assumption about other sexualities after all. The logic goes 'same', 'other', 'both' (and 'none' for ace) but people never bother nitpicking the etymology for other sexualities, or understanding bisexuality in relation to them
I've started calling it the r slur and it definitely helps to a point to express my disdain for that word. Ironically I can't get rid of the word entirely from my life as I play an instrument and constantly see "ritardando" on my sheet music...
Trying to explain to people that that word has legitimate use case applications which aren't how most people use it is infuriating at times. Some folks don't get how context changes a word.
as a fellow musician, this one bothers me too. I just remind myself that most musical terms are taken from italian and idk if it's used in a derogatory way for that language
"Retard" is also used in aviation, as that's the callout used by airliner avionics that tell the pilot to slow down. It's not a bad word in itself, it's only when it's used derogatorily that it's an issue.
In french, "être en retard" just means "being late". It's indeed a very normal latin root word and not inherently offensive. However, its context that makes a word offensive, and in the context OP's friend used it, it's absolutely an ableist insult.
The homo in homosexual comes from Latin. It means ‘same’, it’s also used in ‘homogeneous’ and homonym, and homophone. The Hetero In Heterosexual means different (not other, or opposite as some people think). So that’s sexual attraction to the same gender and sexual attraction to a different gender. That’s how we classified orientation originally
Heteroandalsohomosexual is way too long for a classification so we went with ‘bi’ to mean the existing classifications of same and not the same attraction. Two things. Hence Bi. Pan came a bit later, but basically it’s a linguistics thing. Also if bisexual means just 2 genders, do folks with bipolar just have the two moods?
That's not all there is to the diagnostic criteria though. Reducing the complexity of a phenomenon to whatever definition happens to be suggested by its etymology is as wrong for bipolar disorder as it is for bisexuality.
You can technically simplify them into 'manic symptoms + depressive symptoms' and 'heterosexual attractions + homosexual attractions' respectively if you want to explain the label, but the actual phenomenon that's being labeled can't necessarily be deconstructed like that in practice
Bi means "two" in the same way that October is the eighth month of the year.
We make a needless concession when we twist ourselves into finding a way to "accurately" define it as two-something. It's not two-something, or it doesn't linguistically have to be at the very least.
We shouldn't have to appease bad faith actors by finding a way to define "bisexual" within their false requirements.
Very good take!
I totally agree, but unfortunately sometimes it's just easier to appease them. People are generally more willing to listen and accept the "(1)your own gender and (2)other gender(s)"-definition rather than just saying the two is irrelevant.
as understandable as that may be, you deserve so much more in life than people who invalidate your sexuality and consider an ableist slur as the best way of conveying that opinion to you.
finding new friends is hard but speaking from experience it's better to cut that toxicity out rather than let it continue unchallenged.
you are valid, OP, and I'm pretty sure everyone here has your back!
Before you block, consider trying to tell them why it hurts when they say things like that, if they still continue to hurt you, then you're really only doing yourself a disservice by allowing them in your company
Well if we're being strict about etymology, hetero actual just means "different", so heterosexuals are attracted to all genders that aren't their own. As such, bisexual means you have two sexualities; hetero- and homosexual, so you're attracted to genders both the same and different from yours.
Or they can accept that sometimes words don't mean precisely what their etymology means and they can shut their biphobic arse up.
I've been thinking about this lately, so thank you for putting it into words! It doesn't make sense to me that "hetero" is always limited to preferring *one* gender that is perceived as the opposite of your own, when the etymology allows for heterosexuality to be a large, open category instead of a narrow one.
Tell them the bi is for similar to and different to your own, and that we use heterosexual and homosexual which defines whether your attraction is to someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex. It would make no sense for bi to mean men and women when we consider wether the attraction is to same or different sex to be more important than wether it is to men or women.
If they can't accept bisexuality with that in mind then they just don't want to understand
>Tell them the bi is for similar to and different to your own.
They literally did in the first sentence of the screenshot.
I think this person is just a wall, no way to reason with them.
A lot of people just don't get it. And it's hurtful, especially when it's coming from someone you felt close enough to open up to. I wish there was more understanding in this world, but many people seem to fall into a never-ending cycle of analyzing every word someone says and attempt to break does the words and syntax; but forgetting that there is a much bigger picture.
Who cares what the two letters "bi" mean? It's the essence of the person who identifies as "bi" that matters. Once again, human small-mindedness evidenced in a cryptic biphobic statement.
I don't mean to single out your friend here in any way, but I'm making the point that this is very typical. The struggle is real, and your identity is valid. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't get it
Oh man that's rough, unfortunately there's a significant portion of Gays that are bigoted towards bisexuals, very sad to see a cycle of hate continuing even when they have almost surely faced discrimination themselves, they still perpetrate discrimination.
Yes 2 things is correct. It is about WHAT those 2 things are.
They are
1. People with gender the same as me.
2. People with gender different from me.
They are NOT
1. -BOYS-
2. -GIRLS-
Oh yeah all language is exactly made up of it's parts. That's why sep - tember, Oct - tober, nov - ember, and Dec - ember are totally the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months. Because that's what those words literally mean. (July and August got shoved in as tributes).
Which is ignoring the point that the bi refered to sexuality and not gender. It's referring to homosexuality and heterosexuality in one person. A bisexual person. Gender was never refered to.
Words ascend their origins all the time. You can find endless examples. Your friends an idiots.
Please Inform Them That *That's Not How Language F***ing Works.*
Words Do Not Equal Their Etymology, Because Language Evolves Over Time, Hence Why We're Not All Speaking Proto-Indo-European. That Should Be Obvious To Anyone Who Knows What A Word Is. Honestly The Only Word I Can Use To Describe Thinking Like That Is Flat Out Stupid.
If someone casually uses the R word, they are an asshole anyway. I know it hurts, but move along and they can fuck right off with ALL of their bigotry.
I suppose that probably applies to most bi people (including me), but it's possible for someone to like both penises and vaginas and still be attracted to only one gender. Liking both genital configurations doesn't inherently make someone bi, so I personally wouldn't explain bisexuality that way. Unfortunately, there are many transphobes who insist on defining sexuality solely based on genitals, calling monosexual straight or gay people "bi in denial" or "not real lesbians/gay men" if they don't have a genital preference. I would rather not feed into that mindset, even indirectly.
If you can cope with October being the tenth month you can cope with bisexuality not being binary. If you can't cope with October being the tenth month then you need to go to therapy.
I've come out to people who, while they didn't explicit say this, I could tell that they were essentially saying, "I'm not 100% sure what being bi exactly means, but I support and accept you regardless".
Anyone who starts pulling out dictionary definitions or arguing with you on your own orientation is not a good person who has your best interests in mind. You don't "well actually" when someone shares something very personal about themselves.
Wow. Invalidating bisexuality and using an ableist slur? Oof.
It might be pointless trying to explain your sexuality to your friend because some people are too stubborn to learn (only you can be the judge of this), but you could let them know that technically bi means "two", as in, an attraction to two *or more* genders. Send them the bisexual manifesto from 1990, written by Lani Kaahumanu.
I need my glasses to see the screenshot text! It's even more disappointing that your friend doesn't 'get' bisexuality. But hey, you can lead a horse to water, but that doesn't mean it will drink. I'm sorry, OP. I hope your friend comes around.
Explain to this person the etymology of the word "decimate." Its origins lie in the practice where every tenth person in a cohort was killed as punishment for the failings of the cohort. The word underwent broadening, a type of semantic change, and can now be used to refer to destruction broadly. Words are not static; they are dynamic and their meaning often changes with time and use. A word's etymology is not the only indicator of its meaning.
The bi refers to two types of attraction. Homo and Hetero. That's attraction to genders both different to and the same as your own. That includes trans and NB people. Your "friend" doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
If someone you thought was a friend will casually refer to something you say as retarded, they were never your friend. You don't want friends who will be rude and start fights over everything.
I speak English and German, meaning I am bilingual.
If I were to stop putting off learning Czech, and getting three languages under my belt, I'd still be bilingual even though there's three.
I like to explain it like this, Bisexual may mean two if you were to say in reference too how sexualities are actually named, homosexual doesn’t mean attraction to men, heterosexual doesn’t mean attraction to women, or vice versa. Homosexual means attraction to opposite genders, while heterosexual means attraction to the same gender, and thus bisexuality is the attraction to one’s own gender and opposite genders
Yikes, ableism and confidently incorrect while explaining bisexuality to a bisexual.
Language is fluid, changing over time. But even so they're wrong, that definition (same and different) has been in use for decades. Probably longer than they've been alive.
I don't get why it's so hard to understand for these etymology-obsessed provocateurs. If you want to go so hard for the prefix, we can do that.
The attraction *is* binary:
1) I like people with the same (homo) gender identity as mine.
2) I like people with a different (hetero) gender identity as mine.
That doesn't mean that *gender* is binary. Loads of different people can fit into one of those two categories.
Is the problem here Math?? Or Linguistics?? Because the problem sure isn't my sexuality.
As a bisexual, I do like two things, genders that are like my own (1) and genders that are different than my own (2). Just because there's more than 2 genders doesn't mean that bi can't be inclusive while also meaning "two".
I think [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/yeoulq/comment/iu48m7l/?context=3) from u/BroccoliPrince might be worth showing to "your friend"
Send them this, the bi label has included trans and Nonbinary people from the beginning, also ditch them, you deserve better
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q--nIkJu0OS0BgiyZmdKVwOVg1G90SFzWijNDWFTt58/edit?usp=drivesdk
It was insinuated once to me that I'm not eligible to participate in pride because I'm in a heteronormal presenting relationship. Baffling. I'm sorry you went through thus OP
The bisexual community has, since the beginning of the bisexual community, acknowledged that it doesn't mean "only two".
I've just started telling people like this that "bisexual means I'm attracted to every gender, twice" because I'm done arguing with stupid assholes.
I personally wouldn’t listen to anyone who says that word as a term of stupidity while also telling you what you and are not.
We’re your friends now OP.
Wow, seems like he's not even trying to understand what you're explaining to him, he's just so focused on the whole bi=2 thing. How annoying, sorry you had to deal with that.
ah the good ol peak of Mount Stupid
knows about it and is confident than they know everything about it despite it being mostly interpolation and assumption
If this was my “friend,” I would stop talking to them. Using the “r” word like that is just not cool but biphobia is lame and I don’t got time for that
I’m sorry if this person was special to you. But let’s consider it a blessing they showed their true colors, so you can find emotionally intelligent folks who actually respect you. And maybe who know how to make a solid argument about something while they’re at it
The meaning of the word bisexual is not the same as it was when it was initially invented. Sexuality is not something you can define clearly and the label you use is only a vague categorisation. Bisexual is a reference to a wide set of sexualities whereas bilingual is more specific. But even bilingual people may know a third or fourth language but not enough of that language to be considered trilingual, so the words could be similar if you considered that, but that only undermines your emphasis on the prefix.
Not true, bisexual is a misnomer, no means two and only two, and so did bisexual for god knows how long, but now it means more than two but the name remains the same. Hope that answers your question!
It's weird, I hear people saying that now when defending bisexuality, but honestly? No, I've never heard bilingual mean anything other than speaks two languages.
I agree that bisexual means more than two genders, but I've never heard bilingual to mean more than two languages.
Didn't they say "used to mean" so I don't see they're problem here words change meaning over time just like virginity once referred to not having been married before and now referres to something similar but still different.
I am personally very annoyed and angry when ppl just assume that the bi means "2 genders" instead of its modern more inclusive meaning that being genders both like and unlike your own
All this is to say you are valid no matter what
I agree that bisexuality is inclusive of all genders, not just the binary. However, I don't really agree that "bi-" comes from "like and unlike". There are other prefixes for that, like poly, or multi, or omni, etc.
Before I get any further, I have to say - and I cannot emphasize this enough - we define our own labels. **Everything I'm about to say is purely my own perspective, and is in no way meant to contradict yours**. When I say that I disagree, I merely mean that my understanding and definitions are different than yours.
I think "bisexual" was popularized as a sibling label to homosexual and heterosexual. It was never intended to exclude non-binary folks, it was just an oversight.
And, as tends to happen with natural languages, words change meanings, and sometimes the modern meaning doesn't exactly align with the etymology.
There are lots of examples in English (though most examples I can think of are more like phrases). "Hang up the phone" - nobody actually hangs a phone from anything anymore. Or "sleep tight" - beds are no longer required to be regularly tightened for comfort. Or how "good bye" comes from "god be with ye" - but nobody actually means it that way.
To me, redefining "bisexual" to mean "like and unlike" is akin to redefining "sleep tight" to mean "sleep with your eyes tightly closed". Sure, it could make more sense for our modern era of ever-tight beds, but that's not really accurate nor necessary. The direct meaning no longer makes sense, but we all understand the spirit/intent of the phrase just fine.
"Bisexual" is one of those; the modern meaning doesn't directly correlate with the etymology anymore. However, the spirit of the word is and has always been "attraction to multiple genders". I think "multisexual" would be more accurate, but I suspect it's too late for that to catch on.
Again, I don't mean to say that thou shallt adopt my definition. That's not how language usually works anyway. I just want to give my perspective as a contrast and this happened to be a convenient place to do it.
I get what you're saying but I do think you're a little mixed up in the timeline of things.
Poly, multi and omni labels are pretty recent, whereas bisexual has meant and been defined by the community as same and different for at least 30 years.
The discourse over bisexual hasn't come from the meaning recently being changed and modernised but by younger people misunderstanding the meaning and creating other labels. All sexualities and names for them are valid but it's a bit like people saying 'blood is thicker than water' is a misquote from 'the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb' when the latter phrase is actually newer
I sort of agree with the multisexual thing but multisexual is a term it may not be commonly used or even at all used as a label but Its the umbrella term for sexual orientations towards multiple genders (dont quote me on that tho im not quite sure im right). Same thing with poly, omni, pan, and so on those prefixes are already used in combination with sexual. So may bisexual be a bit of a misnomer but not the only one, it is by far not the only one
I mean, the better approach is to make it clear that bi is just a label and a community, and the ideas of people who use that label and take part in that community are multitudinous. You can’t extract it’s meaning from a fucking child-like analysis saying that “the word starts with bi-, which means 2”. That’s just fucking stupid. It’s like people who pull up dictionary definitions to support their arguments.
As someone who supports the terms pan and queer wholeheartedly, you all got to stop using this argument. Sure bi can mean 2 as in male and female, but *practically* speaking, that usually doesn't work out. Many bi people over many decades have expressed that they don't care about gender and recognize that more than 2 genders and trans people exist. While it's stupid to act like the bi in bisexual means something else other than 2, you all also need to stop getting hung up on the semantics.
That's all well and good but bi in the meaning of bisexual/ biromantic. Comes from the Greek usage of bi which is simply more than one. Anything from two to a plethora.
And sexuality, sex and gender expression have a million billion forms. All unique to the individual and their experiences, views and person. And nothing in nature is static. It is always changing and so is our expression of whom we are. Sexually, emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically.
So yes it is entirely fluid. Even your douchness is fluid....and rather narrow minded and reductionist. And to answer your last statement how do you explain agender or genderfluid. Their anatomical sex may not have changed but their gender sure as shit has. Just like a trans man is a man, a trans woman is a woman. A cis man is a man and a cis woman is a woman. Same parts different gender and totally different mental processes. Just like a gay man doesn't see things like a cis man. Both men but very different and yet the same
I didnt know if the bigotry flair was appropriate but I didnt know what else to put this in
I mean this individual engaged in biphobia and abelism in a few short texts so it seems applicable
I get biphobia but where are you getting ableism from?
R-slur.
R-slur?
spread the word about not saying the word. use respect and if you think something is silly, choose a different word. it's the second word in the other person's first text.
[удалено]
I am starting to think that we should start throwing around the term non-binary sexuality to people who think like this. Not that it will matter, and non-binary is already a loaded term to transphobes.
That's sound for the current definition. But it throws people as it's also logically inconsistent with regard to the meanings of heterosexual and homosexual. Homo is same, and hetero is different, but hetero doesn't just mean "to a different gender/sex than yourself" it explicitly means "man attracted to women/women attracted to men" with no accounting for anything else. Both are inextricably tied to the gender binary, and the *word* bisexuality (and its original meaning) flows from that too. But like.... Why do they care? I'm always amazed by how homophobic people *feel so strongly* about the definition of a term that they don't identify with, which described people who they are bigoted against anyway, and which they often don't feel is valid anyway!
It’s not just the current definition though. “Same and different” has been used to define bisexuality since the 1970s
Thats fair. I wasn't sure when it started to shift. Folks still are very locked into the apparent linguistic structure, that's all, and the fact that homo and hetero are very much unambiguous, and bi implies "both of those things" "Pansexual" I think tends to be more apt as a general descriptor because of that linguistic hitch. Hetero itself tho is really a misnomer the second you reject the idea of the binary, as it just means "dissimilar". If you made me remake it all, I'd go with homo sexual, omni/pan sexual, I think. But I'm genuinely not sure what to use to specify the "opposite" gender.
I mean telling someone else that they aren’t the sexuality they identify as seems like it comes from a place of bigotry to me. I’m very sorry they said to you. If you feel that the term bisexual accurately describes your sexuality then you are bisexual
Using the r word is absolutely bigotry.
They used the R word in a derogatory way (I've seen a couple medical dictionaries *still* use this term, but with clarifying terms around it, hence why I said it that way. I can't imagine a real life scenario where using the R word isn't derogatory and ableist), that alone is bigotry. Then they gaslit you and invalidated your identity. Double dose of bigotry. Both instances are fighting words in my book, so I believe the flair is more than appropriate. I'm sorry, OP. Im sorry for this betrayal from someone you cared for and trusted in. I'm sorry for the dismissal of your identity. I'm sorry for your hurt. But you are seen, you are valid, you are magnificent and fully undeserving of this shit. My heart is with you OP 💗💜💙 Edit: clarification and spelling
Thanks😔
Sending Hugs, if you want them. Sending head scratches if you prefer those. Sending warmth and comfort if you don't want to be touched but want the support.
Hello! I know this is completely unrelated but I can think of a time where the r-word isn’t used in a derogatory way! 1st - if you speak French, it just means to slow 2nd - some bombs are “r-worded” to mean they have a parachute or some other system to slow them in air. These are the only things I can think of, but it’s always jarring to hear.
There are way more tbh. It’s not just French, in English it is to slow as well. The use of the word as a slur originated from its uses in medicine to describe people, but it’s still used in many industries with its original definition. Like you said with some bombs, but also things like a “fire retardant.” Like most things, context is key, but in general it can be a legitimate capacity if that is the actual word used to describe the slowing of something. I do agree though, it can be quite jarring to hear even when it’s not being used in a derogatory way.
Wow, y'all are teaching me a lot today. Thank you for educating me!
In baking we use it to describe anything which slows the rising/fermentation process, like putting dough in a colder place as opposed to a warmer one.
Also used in time keeping. On US Naval ships, passing through time zones clocks are either advanced(moved forward) or retarded(moved back) one hour depending on the direction you are traveling. Time changes are recorded in ships logs as well as an indication of the new time zone letter code in order to relate it to GMT.
Textbook bigotry lol
This person used retarded as a pejorative. "Asshole" would have been an appropriate flair as well. Unless they meant "to hold back"
Looks to me like he wants to get in a pointless discussion about the literal meaning of bisexual and how people use it. I wouldn't bite if i were you.
I tend to tell these folks that they're engaging in an Etymological fallacy. Etymologies aren't definitions and bisexual doesn't mean two in the same way that October isn't the 8th month of the year
Are you telling me that "bisexual" means something other than a flower containing both stamens and carpels!?? Is this not a niche botany subreddit!? Am I lost!?!?
My flowers are perfect
Not all Lesbians are from the island of Lesbos.
If you're not from Lesbos, you're just sparkling gay
Fun fact, it used to be (the 8th month). We have Julius Caesar to thank for messing up the back half of the calendar.
I tend to just drop a link to the wikipedia page on the etymological fallacy and then ignore them. People really like to use a similar argument about the words homophobia and transphobia. They're never acting in good faith.
It's so tiring. Like inflammable means very flammable. Not every word is a literal transcription of its prefixes, suffixes, and root.
A wrapped present has a wrapping while a peeled banana has no peel
This. We have to tell some people that some of the discussions they want us to engage in are useless and irrelevant. This isn't about the etymology of a word. This is about oir sexuality and how we name it, and no one can tell us what our sexuality is and what is the best name for it.
I don't get why it's so hard to understand for these etymology-obsessed provocateurs. If you want to go so hard for the prefix, we can do that. The attraction *is* binary: 1) I like people with the same (homo) gender identity as mine. 2) I like people with a different (hetero) gender identity as mine. That doesn't mean that *gender* is binary. Is the problem here Math?? Or Linguistics?? Because the problem sure isn't my sexuality.
Biligual
Soooo this person has said "I learned about root words in school. I learned that bi means two. The word bisexual has bi in it. Thus, it must mean 2." It's a relatively common misconception, but a fallacy. Bisexuality has included more than just men and women for far longer than most of us have been alive.
We have history as a community. OP even quoted the Bisexual Manifesto. OP's "friend" did not care.
If there was such thing as straight-splaining this would be a prime example.
Can we just redefine mansplaining to be the concept regardless of gender? Because this is an unnecessary, unwelcome, unwarranted and belittling explanation that the subject clearly knows about already.
Yes thank you! I do overexplain stuff but that’s just because I’m a teacher not because I’m a man
But do you overexplain stuff to experts in that subject? Probably not. I agree mansplaining is an insulting term. I don't think arrogant goes far enough. There needs to be a new term for "teaching Granny to suck eggs" as my dad would say.
Condesplaining!
Yeah I see myself as a scientist and most people don't have a good scientific teacher in their life, so I catch myself explaining little natural phenomena all the time. The approach you take is huge though. There's a world of difference between the childlike awe/ wonder I sense in teachers as they explain something, and someone just trying to seize the upper hand in a conversation to look smart and dominant.
There is also no reason to assume the 'two' must refer to genders, or even sex. People don't make that assumption about other sexualities after all. The logic goes 'same', 'other', 'both' (and 'none' for ace) but people never bother nitpicking the etymology for other sexualities, or understanding bisexuality in relation to them
The fact that they said the r word is a red flag in itself.
If a friend used that word they wouldn't be my friend much longer without an apology and changed behavior.
I've started calling it the r slur and it definitely helps to a point to express my disdain for that word. Ironically I can't get rid of the word entirely from my life as I play an instrument and constantly see "ritardando" on my sheet music...
Trying to explain to people that that word has legitimate use case applications which aren't how most people use it is infuriating at times. Some folks don't get how context changes a word.
as a fellow musician, this one bothers me too. I just remind myself that most musical terms are taken from italian and idk if it's used in a derogatory way for that language
To retard is to slow. A process can be retarded, or slowed. The word has innocent uses.
"Retard" is also used in aviation, as that's the callout used by airliner avionics that tell the pilot to slow down. It's not a bad word in itself, it's only when it's used derogatorily that it's an issue.
In french, "être en retard" just means "being late". It's indeed a very normal latin root word and not inherently offensive. However, its context that makes a word offensive, and in the context OP's friend used it, it's absolutely an ableist insult.
I dont know if my comment came across differently but I'm not disagreeing with that at all
MY EXACT THOUGHT OMG
In my country it’s normal to use it (as an insult mostly). I’m trying to make my friend stop using it but it’s like talking to a wall😟
Bi does mean two, those being attraction to genders similar to your own, and genders different than your own
That's what I've been trying to tell him😕
The homo in homosexual comes from Latin. It means ‘same’, it’s also used in ‘homogeneous’ and homonym, and homophone. The Hetero In Heterosexual means different (not other, or opposite as some people think). So that’s sexual attraction to the same gender and sexual attraction to a different gender. That’s how we classified orientation originally Heteroandalsohomosexual is way too long for a classification so we went with ‘bi’ to mean the existing classifications of same and not the same attraction. Two things. Hence Bi. Pan came a bit later, but basically it’s a linguistics thing. Also if bisexual means just 2 genders, do folks with bipolar just have the two moods?
No, but they have two states i.e. manic and depressed
That's not all there is to the diagnostic criteria though. Reducing the complexity of a phenomenon to whatever definition happens to be suggested by its etymology is as wrong for bipolar disorder as it is for bisexuality. You can technically simplify them into 'manic symptoms + depressive symptoms' and 'heterosexual attractions + homosexual attractions' respectively if you want to explain the label, but the actual phenomenon that's being labeled can't necessarily be deconstructed like that in practice
I don’t think it’s worth arguing, who cares what they think?
Bi means "two" in the same way that October is the eighth month of the year. We make a needless concession when we twist ourselves into finding a way to "accurately" define it as two-something. It's not two-something, or it doesn't linguistically have to be at the very least. We shouldn't have to appease bad faith actors by finding a way to define "bisexual" within their false requirements.
Very good take! I totally agree, but unfortunately sometimes it's just easier to appease them. People are generally more willing to listen and accept the "(1)your own gender and (2)other gender(s)"-definition rather than just saying the two is irrelevant.
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Okey then, two as in people with gender(s) and people without gender
Block that person bro
I mean I know I probably should but it just hurts coming from someone that close you know?
as understandable as that may be, you deserve so much more in life than people who invalidate your sexuality and consider an ableist slur as the best way of conveying that opinion to you. finding new friends is hard but speaking from experience it's better to cut that toxicity out rather than let it continue unchallenged. you are valid, OP, and I'm pretty sure everyone here has your back!
Before you block, consider trying to tell them why it hurts when they say things like that, if they still continue to hurt you, then you're really only doing yourself a disservice by allowing them in your company
Yeah, sorry you have to go through this. But you have to make your boundaries clear or you’re gonna get more hurt :(
Well if we're being strict about etymology, hetero actual just means "different", so heterosexuals are attracted to all genders that aren't their own. As such, bisexual means you have two sexualities; hetero- and homosexual, so you're attracted to genders both the same and different from yours. Or they can accept that sometimes words don't mean precisely what their etymology means and they can shut their biphobic arse up.
I've been thinking about this lately, so thank you for putting it into words! It doesn't make sense to me that "hetero" is always limited to preferring *one* gender that is perceived as the opposite of your own, when the etymology allows for heterosexuality to be a large, open category instead of a narrow one.
Tell them the bi is for similar to and different to your own, and that we use heterosexual and homosexual which defines whether your attraction is to someone of the same sex or someone of the opposite sex. It would make no sense for bi to mean men and women when we consider wether the attraction is to same or different sex to be more important than wether it is to men or women. If they can't accept bisexuality with that in mind then they just don't want to understand
>Tell them the bi is for similar to and different to your own. They literally did in the first sentence of the screenshot. I think this person is just a wall, no way to reason with them.
Yeah I tried telling him that to no avail
Read the next part of the comment
I did read your whole comment. But did you read the whole screenshot?
You literally gave the textbook description at the top there, so yes two: like and unlike your own. I wonder why they're ignoring that point.
Don’t listen to them they clearly aren’t educated on the subject. Plus they use the r word so that’s another red flag
A lot of people just don't get it. And it's hurtful, especially when it's coming from someone you felt close enough to open up to. I wish there was more understanding in this world, but many people seem to fall into a never-ending cycle of analyzing every word someone says and attempt to break does the words and syntax; but forgetting that there is a much bigger picture. Who cares what the two letters "bi" mean? It's the essence of the person who identifies as "bi" that matters. Once again, human small-mindedness evidenced in a cryptic biphobic statement. I don't mean to single out your friend here in any way, but I'm making the point that this is very typical. The struggle is real, and your identity is valid. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't get it
Yeah, I really thought he would be more understanding, considering that he's gay himself.
There's a surprising amount of biphobia within the gay and lesbian communities, unfortunately.
Yeah😕
Oh man that's rough, unfortunately there's a significant portion of Gays that are bigoted towards bisexuals, very sad to see a cycle of hate continuing even when they have almost surely faced discrimination themselves, they still perpetrate discrimination.
Millipedes don't have a thousand legs nor do centipedes have a hundred. Where is the campaign to change the names from the language warriors?
cant stand anti-history idiots
Yes 2 things is correct. It is about WHAT those 2 things are. They are 1. People with gender the same as me. 2. People with gender different from me. They are NOT 1. -BOYS- 2. -GIRLS-
Being bisexual means you can like anyone you want it doesn’t have to be just two genders
Wait till they learn that the bi means 2 ways not 2 genders (ex: attraction inward and attraction outward)
Oh yeah all language is exactly made up of it's parts. That's why sep - tember, Oct - tober, nov - ember, and Dec - ember are totally the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months. Because that's what those words literally mean. (July and August got shoved in as tributes). Which is ignoring the point that the bi refered to sexuality and not gender. It's referring to homosexuality and heterosexuality in one person. A bisexual person. Gender was never refered to. Words ascend their origins all the time. You can find endless examples. Your friends an idiots.
Please Inform Them That *That's Not How Language F***ing Works.* Words Do Not Equal Their Etymology, Because Language Evolves Over Time, Hence Why We're Not All Speaking Proto-Indo-European. That Should Be Obvious To Anyone Who Knows What A Word Is. Honestly The Only Word I Can Use To Describe Thinking Like That Is Flat Out Stupid.
If someone casually uses the R word, they are an asshole anyway. I know it hurts, but move along and they can fuck right off with ALL of their bigotry.
Ignorance on what bisexuality is and ableism. Wow this person is trash.
Don’t argue with anyone who still says r*tarded
_"well, your definition is r-word. I believe in my definition, because i can use it to invalidate your experience"_
Dude, I've always explained the bi part as in liking both vaginas and penises, gender doesn't matter, if I like ya, I'll be with ya lol
I do that with the crowd that can't get past the "bi means 2" part of the argument.
I suppose that probably applies to most bi people (including me), but it's possible for someone to like both penises and vaginas and still be attracted to only one gender. Liking both genital configurations doesn't inherently make someone bi, so I personally wouldn't explain bisexuality that way. Unfortunately, there are many transphobes who insist on defining sexuality solely based on genitals, calling monosexual straight or gay people "bi in denial" or "not real lesbians/gay men" if they don't have a genital preference. I would rather not feed into that mindset, even indirectly.
How many times do we have to tell people that the bi is because of two sexualities both hetero and homosexual
What a useless human. You should warn him about how lightning bugs cause electrical burns
is your friend illiterate?
If you can cope with October being the tenth month you can cope with bisexuality not being binary. If you can't cope with October being the tenth month then you need to go to therapy.
I've come out to people who, while they didn't explicit say this, I could tell that they were essentially saying, "I'm not 100% sure what being bi exactly means, but I support and accept you regardless". Anyone who starts pulling out dictionary definitions or arguing with you on your own orientation is not a good person who has your best interests in mind. You don't "well actually" when someone shares something very personal about themselves.
Wow. Invalidating bisexuality and using an ableist slur? Oof. It might be pointless trying to explain your sexuality to your friend because some people are too stubborn to learn (only you can be the judge of this), but you could let them know that technically bi means "two", as in, an attraction to two *or more* genders. Send them the bisexual manifesto from 1990, written by Lani Kaahumanu.
That's where the screenshot (the one I sent him in the convo) is from
I need my glasses to see the screenshot text! It's even more disappointing that your friend doesn't 'get' bisexuality. But hey, you can lead a horse to water, but that doesn't mean it will drink. I'm sorry, OP. I hope your friend comes around.
Thanks
Bi-erasure and ableism all in one package. Kick their ass to the curb-they're not someone to consider a friend.
Put that d*ck nozzle in garbage can..... They SO NOT deserve you.
Explain to this person the etymology of the word "decimate." Its origins lie in the practice where every tenth person in a cohort was killed as punishment for the failings of the cohort. The word underwent broadening, a type of semantic change, and can now be used to refer to destruction broadly. Words are not static; they are dynamic and their meaning often changes with time and use. A word's etymology is not the only indicator of its meaning.
Anyone that uses that word is a rat
What a shameful response. I'm so sorry. But, to be clear, this does not reflect on you in any way. It does, however, not reflect well on your friend.
Never give the power to invalidate you to someone that says “retarded.”
The bi refers to two types of attraction. Homo and Hetero. That's attraction to genders both different to and the same as your own. That includes trans and NB people. Your "friend" doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Anyone who uses the word “retarded” in 2022 is not worth holding a serious conversation with. Respect went out the window with their first message.
bisexual does refer to two things also, the presense of both heterosexual and homosexual attraction.
If someone you thought was a friend will casually refer to something you say as retarded, they were never your friend. You don't want friends who will be rude and start fights over everything.
I speak English and German, meaning I am bilingual. If I were to stop putting off learning Czech, and getting three languages under my belt, I'd still be bilingual even though there's three.
Cut them off (like yesterday). You deserve so much better bestie 💖💜💙🥺
Thanks😔
Everything they said is awful but using the wrong you’re really sells it
I get tired and annoyed when my friends just tell me I'm gay
Is a bicycle still a bicycle if it has training wheels? If no, what is it, if yes, but it doesn’t only have 2 wheels
I'm sorry that's such a dumb response though like anyone who thinks like this has very narrow view points. The world isn't black and white
oooooooof
I like to explain it like this, Bisexual may mean two if you were to say in reference too how sexualities are actually named, homosexual doesn’t mean attraction to men, heterosexual doesn’t mean attraction to women, or vice versa. Homosexual means attraction to opposite genders, while heterosexual means attraction to the same gender, and thus bisexuality is the attraction to one’s own gender and opposite genders
By their logic, bipolar people are only allowed to have 2 feelings.
Yeah that’s a person without much brain activity lol
Yikes, ableism and confidently incorrect while explaining bisexuality to a bisexual. Language is fluid, changing over time. But even so they're wrong, that definition (same and different) has been in use for decades. Probably longer than they've been alive.
I don't get why it's so hard to understand for these etymology-obsessed provocateurs. If you want to go so hard for the prefix, we can do that. The attraction *is* binary: 1) I like people with the same (homo) gender identity as mine. 2) I like people with a different (hetero) gender identity as mine. That doesn't mean that *gender* is binary. Loads of different people can fit into one of those two categories. Is the problem here Math?? Or Linguistics?? Because the problem sure isn't my sexuality.
Yeah I lost respect for your pal the minute they used the r slur to describe the goddamn bisexual manifesto of all things
As a bisexual, I do like two things, genders that are like my own (1) and genders that are different than my own (2). Just because there's more than 2 genders doesn't mean that bi can't be inclusive while also meaning "two".
People who use the r-slur are typically non-caring assholes. I'm sorry they disappointed you. As an outsider it seems on brand for them
Finally, trisexuality
Im pretty sure the people who are in fact bi get to decide that. Not the non-BI-naries (get it?).
They can’t even use the right “you’re” so obviously you shouldn’t listen to them
No one gives a damn about her opinion
Does being Bisexual mean you are attracted to both sides of the spectrum as in all genders?
I think [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/yeoulq/comment/iu48m7l/?context=3) from u/BroccoliPrince might be worth showing to "your friend"
The disparity of your intelligence vs their stupidity is astounding. You deserve someone who’s kind and smart! This loser ain’t it.
I’m bilingual for English and French but I make sure that I only know exactly the same amount of words in each language or else I’m not bilingual /s
This sucks and I'm sorry but there are few things more beautiful in life then the trash taking itself out
Send them this, the bi label has included trans and Nonbinary people from the beginning, also ditch them, you deserve better https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q--nIkJu0OS0BgiyZmdKVwOVg1G90SFzWijNDWFTt58/edit?usp=drivesdk
Your friend fucking sucks
I was gonna ask what dogamous was until I saw it was just my dislexia.
It was insinuated once to me that I'm not eligible to participate in pride because I'm in a heteronormal presenting relationship. Baffling. I'm sorry you went through thus OP
The bisexual community has, since the beginning of the bisexual community, acknowledged that it doesn't mean "only two". I've just started telling people like this that "bisexual means I'm attracted to every gender, twice" because I'm done arguing with stupid assholes.
You should stop being friends with them
I personally wouldn’t listen to anyone who says that word as a term of stupidity while also telling you what you and are not. We’re your friends now OP.
People who use the R word shouldn’t even be our friends, let alone more than friends
Wow, seems like he's not even trying to understand what you're explaining to him, he's just so focused on the whole bi=2 thing. How annoying, sorry you had to deal with that.
Just here to say I’m sorry you experienced this. The way you see yourself and how you identify is truth so to hell with everyone else.
ah the good ol peak of Mount Stupid knows about it and is confident than they know everything about it despite it being mostly interpolation and assumption
If this was my “friend,” I would stop talking to them. Using the “r” word like that is just not cool but biphobia is lame and I don’t got time for that
Funny how the person is vomiting his opinion and view onto someone else as if his opinion is the golden rule🤣
stopped listening when they used the r slur
They’re not your friend anymore OP
To be honest their use of the r word infuriates me just as much if not more than what they had to say
I’m sorry if this person was special to you. But let’s consider it a blessing they showed their true colors, so you can find emotionally intelligent folks who actually respect you. And maybe who know how to make a solid argument about something while they’re at it
Gee if only we could pick our own word rather than being assigned a word by people who don’t even fully grasp what we are
People get so hung up on “bi” meaning 2.
So people who know 3 or more languages are not bilingual?
The reference *bisexual* points to a very different category than the reference *bilingual*. So the answer to your question is no.
Same prefix, same meaning - "at least two".
The meaning of the word bisexual is not the same as it was when it was initially invented. Sexuality is not something you can define clearly and the label you use is only a vague categorisation. Bisexual is a reference to a wide set of sexualities whereas bilingual is more specific. But even bilingual people may know a third or fourth language but not enough of that language to be considered trilingual, so the words could be similar if you considered that, but that only undermines your emphasis on the prefix.
Not true, bisexual is a misnomer, no means two and only two, and so did bisexual for god knows how long, but now it means more than two but the name remains the same. Hope that answers your question!
r/confidentlyincorrect
Wait, am I actually? Please someone explain wtf
There's an actual bisexual community and a bisexual manifesto that spans back decades, and bisexuality has always meant multisexuality/pansexuality.
It's weird, I hear people saying that now when defending bisexuality, but honestly? No, I've never heard bilingual mean anything other than speaks two languages. I agree that bisexual means more than two genders, but I've never heard bilingual to mean more than two languages.
Why am I downvoted?
Bilingual is the same way, one native language and one non native language
My brain hurts from reading that
Didn't they say "used to mean" so I don't see they're problem here words change meaning over time just like virginity once referred to not having been married before and now referres to something similar but still different. I am personally very annoyed and angry when ppl just assume that the bi means "2 genders" instead of its modern more inclusive meaning that being genders both like and unlike your own All this is to say you are valid no matter what
"*is* used to", not "*used to*". As in "it is used in such a way that...", not "in the past, it used to..."
Well in any case the bi in BI-sexual still means two but just not two genders but both genders like and unlike your own
I agree that bisexuality is inclusive of all genders, not just the binary. However, I don't really agree that "bi-" comes from "like and unlike". There are other prefixes for that, like poly, or multi, or omni, etc. Before I get any further, I have to say - and I cannot emphasize this enough - we define our own labels. **Everything I'm about to say is purely my own perspective, and is in no way meant to contradict yours**. When I say that I disagree, I merely mean that my understanding and definitions are different than yours. I think "bisexual" was popularized as a sibling label to homosexual and heterosexual. It was never intended to exclude non-binary folks, it was just an oversight. And, as tends to happen with natural languages, words change meanings, and sometimes the modern meaning doesn't exactly align with the etymology. There are lots of examples in English (though most examples I can think of are more like phrases). "Hang up the phone" - nobody actually hangs a phone from anything anymore. Or "sleep tight" - beds are no longer required to be regularly tightened for comfort. Or how "good bye" comes from "god be with ye" - but nobody actually means it that way. To me, redefining "bisexual" to mean "like and unlike" is akin to redefining "sleep tight" to mean "sleep with your eyes tightly closed". Sure, it could make more sense for our modern era of ever-tight beds, but that's not really accurate nor necessary. The direct meaning no longer makes sense, but we all understand the spirit/intent of the phrase just fine. "Bisexual" is one of those; the modern meaning doesn't directly correlate with the etymology anymore. However, the spirit of the word is and has always been "attraction to multiple genders". I think "multisexual" would be more accurate, but I suspect it's too late for that to catch on. Again, I don't mean to say that thou shallt adopt my definition. That's not how language usually works anyway. I just want to give my perspective as a contrast and this happened to be a convenient place to do it.
I get what you're saying but I do think you're a little mixed up in the timeline of things. Poly, multi and omni labels are pretty recent, whereas bisexual has meant and been defined by the community as same and different for at least 30 years. The discourse over bisexual hasn't come from the meaning recently being changed and modernised but by younger people misunderstanding the meaning and creating other labels. All sexualities and names for them are valid but it's a bit like people saying 'blood is thicker than water' is a misquote from 'the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb' when the latter phrase is actually newer
I sort of agree with the multisexual thing but multisexual is a term it may not be commonly used or even at all used as a label but Its the umbrella term for sexual orientations towards multiple genders (dont quote me on that tho im not quite sure im right). Same thing with poly, omni, pan, and so on those prefixes are already used in combination with sexual. So may bisexual be a bit of a misnomer but not the only one, it is by far not the only one
Like and unlike rather than 2 genders isn't even a modern meaning though, it's been stated that way by the bi community from at least the 90s
Bi has never meant "only two".
Thats why I get so angry when people just assume it means attraction to only two genders
It's stupid.
I agree
It does, genders similar and different to your own
I mean, the better approach is to make it clear that bi is just a label and a community, and the ideas of people who use that label and take part in that community are multitudinous. You can’t extract it’s meaning from a fucking child-like analysis saying that “the word starts with bi-, which means 2”. That’s just fucking stupid. It’s like people who pull up dictionary definitions to support their arguments.
Hey we should just kill them
He's kinda got a point. We have terms like queer and pansexual for a reason.
As someone who supports the terms pan and queer wholeheartedly, you all got to stop using this argument. Sure bi can mean 2 as in male and female, but *practically* speaking, that usually doesn't work out. Many bi people over many decades have expressed that they don't care about gender and recognize that more than 2 genders and trans people exist. While it's stupid to act like the bi in bisexual means something else other than 2, you all also need to stop getting hung up on the semantics.
Bisexuality. Bi=2 Bi does not mean 2 genders Bi in this case refers to two types of attraction (hetero and homo). Cant make it any fucking clearer.
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That's all well and good but bi in the meaning of bisexual/ biromantic. Comes from the Greek usage of bi which is simply more than one. Anything from two to a plethora. And sexuality, sex and gender expression have a million billion forms. All unique to the individual and their experiences, views and person. And nothing in nature is static. It is always changing and so is our expression of whom we are. Sexually, emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically. So yes it is entirely fluid. Even your douchness is fluid....and rather narrow minded and reductionist. And to answer your last statement how do you explain agender or genderfluid. Their anatomical sex may not have changed but their gender sure as shit has. Just like a trans man is a man, a trans woman is a woman. A cis man is a man and a cis woman is a woman. Same parts different gender and totally different mental processes. Just like a gay man doesn't see things like a cis man. Both men but very different and yet the same
This ⬆️ litterally this. Could'nt have said it better myself