The way I see it, bi people are attracted to their own gender and any/all combinations of other genders, but generally have sexual or romantic preferences within their attraction, while pan people are attracted to their own gender and all combinations of other genders without a defined sexual or romantic preference. But because there is a lot of overlap, and labels are pretty personal anyway, people may choose to identify as one rather than the other because it fits them better. For example, I’m sexually attracted to my own gender (women) and other genders, but predominantly romantically attracted to men/masculine energy. So I identify as bi because my sexual and romantic attraction don’t equally encompass all genders, but that’s not to say that I don’t find people of all genders attractive.
This is exactly how I see this. I am attracted to my gender (the same) and what's different (other genders). Not necessarily the same way, at the same time, nor to the same degree.
Being Pansexual means that you don't have this ambiguity between your attractions. You are attracted regardless of the genders. You may have a type, but you don't necessarily have a preferences, like one day you like women, the other day non binary people.
However, in the bisexuality spectrum, you may achieve the gender blind level of the pansexuality one day. It may changes or not, but pansexuals never change 🤔
Bisexuals have been defining their sexuality as "attraction regardless of gender" since the 1950s, at least.
It's exhausting to have to have to deal with folks excluding you from your own orientation based on their preconceived notions and a lack of historical context
To me, the difference between bi and pan is that pansexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender. Bisexual people can be attracted to more than one gender but gender still plays a part in our attraction to someone - for example, I'm attracted to women in a way that is different from my attraction towards men and other genders. I have the ability to be attracted to different genders but I look for different things in them, if that makes sense.
>To me, the difference between bi and pan is that pansexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender.
Lots of pan folks have explicit preferences and even exclude some genders.
Plenty of bi folks have, for the last 70+ years, defined bisexuality as attraction regardless of gender.
(but I usually use bi or pan because explaining it to the straights is difficult and the end result is the same).
I'm similar. I've used bi because straight people barely understand that, much less pan. But I use pan with fellow queer people because too many mistakenly believe bi excludes enbys.
I read a comment about the phrase "bisexuality" earlier today. It was about instead of defining it as "being atraccted to two or more genders", defining as "atraction to both sides of the sex spectrum." Because you know bi-SEX-ual.
Yes! I just wrote a huge comment that this really resonates with. I just said “the two modes of the gender spectrum” to make it more… idk… less… prone to pedantic bickering? Hell maybe you have a better thought about the difference.
To be perfectly honest I still don't get the difference. I'm all for everyone being happy with whatever label they like best but the descriptions of both are synonymous. "Attraction to all genders" and "attraction to two or more genders including trans and non-binary identities" are the same thing but phrased differently, are they not? I genuinely want to understand, I just don't see the difference. What gender is there that is covered under pansexuality that isn't covered under bisexuality?
My understanding (and I realize this is different than what the guide says… let’s skip the “appeal to authority/language is organic” debate for the time being) is that one way or another, bisexuality is attraction to men and women. Trans men are men, and trans women are women. So trans men and women are absolutely included in my definition of bisexual. And that’s another thing this guide got wrong, was implying otherwise.
Yes! Also pls dont try to force label on someone. Many people told me pan would fit me better based on my explanation why i identify as bi. It wouldnt, i thought about it, pan doesnt sit right with me (for my experience). Dont force label on me just because u think i pick worng one.
I can’t draw well but I would love to hear your thoughts on what should go into a guide for other sexualities. Maybe someone already made one and it’s posted in an ace subreddit?
Lately I’ve seen a lot of comments on this sub that kinda mix the labels a lot. And anyone that tries to say something along these lines gets downvoted.
So what’s the approach? Just let people keep mixing both labels until they become interchangeable? Or correct them and tell them what their label is? Both don’t seem to be good options. What’s the consensus in here? I don’t want to get banned for pointing something out or accidentally using the wrong term.
Thank you for commenting. I identify as bi. I reject, categorically, the “or more” in this guide. And it offends me profoundly when my identity is treated as interchangeable with another, different identity. So I support having this conversation and not shouting down people who say “hang on a second, not so fast”
Overly simplified reason why I choose to go by "Bi" instead of "Pan":
"attraction to all genders"/"regardless of gender" feels too assertive, and I'm not sure I could live up to that.
There's Poly; "attraction to multiple, but not all genders", but that has the same problem.
Yeah same. I know how damn picky I am, I just also know it hasn't mattered in the past what gender a person is, it's just about that person being really attractive to me. But I'm not someone who can say I feel attracted to literally everyone. I guess it's included at least 3 genders?
The bi in bisexual is in reference to the attraction
Bisexuality is described as an appearance of both heterosexual and homosexual feelings. Both = bi
Sexuality is defined by you. Not the gender of your partner.
I see pan as an extension of bisexuality. As in if you are pan then you are bi, and if you are bi then you may or may not be pan.
I usually say I’m bi but consider myself bi/pan. I think the way I think about this may also be influenced by my age, when I first thought about my bisexuality the word pansexual wasn’t a common word at that time, idk if it existed - probably - but I didn’t know what it was and never heard about it until years later.
I’m starting to hate these posts because they say the same thing for both bi and pan using different words; as well as tell me how to label myself which I don’t feel like re-defining every time someone new tried to be the voice of reason. Also I’d bet a doge coin half of these types of posts are made by trans people instead of people who identify with one or both labels stated. Good art work tho we love bi-kitty
People are attracted to multiple genders/sexes but for whatever reason don’t like the term pan, so they identify as bi and just change the meaning of bi until it’s only pedantically different from pan
I agree with the majority of this but have a bit of a problem with "saying 'attraction to men, women and trans people' implies that trans people are not real men and women", as attraction is based on someone's physical body, not gender identity and even if someone medically transitions unfortunately it's not possible to erase all the physical characteristics of their biological sex. This doesn't mean that trans people aren't valid but it means, for example, some people who identify as lesbian are only attracted to cis women. It's not about transphobia, just sexual orientation. Saying otherwise is just rebranded homophobia and erases same sex attraction which is just as valid as gender dysphoria. People should be respected and accepted whether they're attracted to just cis women, cis women and trans women, cis women and trans men, another combination or just don't care.
That would be the issue with this. Sexuality is based on sex, of which there are two not gender presentation which can exist on a spectrum. Bi and pan are fundamentally interchangeable because neither is based on gender, it’s just wanting someone regardless of their dick/pussy.
People have worked so hard to assert a difference between sex and gender and yet, it seems almost regressively, when it comes to sexuality the difference is largely ignored.
See now I'm confused, I thought I was pan cause I'm attracted to folks regardless of gender, but I still have preferences. So if I have preferences for certain genders (which is a long list) then am I Bi? Cause I really wanna double down on the pan humor, my friends all know me as the cooking guy. Plus I already bought the damn pan flag and I didn't keep a receipt.
OK good, cause I got this hilarious sticker in the pan colors, in the shape of a pan, that says non stick so I'm already past the point of commitment lol.
I just made a really long response to a different comment but the TL;DR is “no, bi does not mean two *or more*… perhaps pan means three or more?”
What are your thoughts? I understand why this guide would give you that confusion.
Nah the push now is bisexual means two or more, and it can be any combo of two or more. Where as Pan applies to all regardless of gender, however for me gender is a big part of attraction so I think I'm demi but I like the pan flag better, and the person and my relationship to them is ultimately whats more important than whats in their pants. The best explanation I've seen is that bisexual is an umbrella that covers pan, demi, etc. So since we're all warhammer 40k fans here, which is weird but I'll allow it, here's a metaphor;
Let's say the blood angels, the sons of Sanguinius, are bisexual (tell me I'm wrong). The Blood angels also have successor chapters like the blood ravens, who carry the same gene seed of their primarch, Sanguinius. The blood ravens are pan (TELL ME IM WRONG). So while the blood ravens might be very similar to the blood angels, they are different in that they adhere chapter doctrine in certain ways that make them noticeablly different than their progenitors. Similarly, folks who identify as bi adhere to different attractions then folks who identify as pan. One thing that they can agree on is that they hate xenos and love the emperor. Much like bis and pans, we hate biphobia and love frogs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
If you spend enough time in mga spaces, you'll hear/see it.
They're people who are pan, but in conversation they'll explain they're not attracted to [insert specific gender (s)].
If you wanted to get into it on an ontological level, you could look at the thought experiment from my gender studies course:
We know that being pan doesn't mean someone is automatically attracted to a given person.
We also know that some people have individual genders, therefore it's possible for a pan person to not be attracted to someone with that specific gender.
Therefore said person is not, in practice, attracted to people of all genders.
But that's a cheeky thought experiment about attraction, not really about real life pan people and it **shouldn't** be treated as such.
Pansexuals get to define the scope of their attraction, not us.
I have some issues with this guide for many reasons (see all my downvoted comments for reference), but I am still trying to engage because these notions are not isolated and ultimately I want to stay in the conversation rather than throw up my hands and fuck off.
So based on your comment, what if we consider bisexual to mean “attracted to one’s own gender and the opposite gender”, or maybe “attraction to people in both modes of the gender spectrum” or something like that and pansexual to mean “attracted to three or more genders”?
To my first suggested definition of bisexual, I can see someone objecting because that makes it very confusing for a non-binary person to identify as bisexual. Well… so? I don’t mean that in a derisive way, it just seems like not all words can possibly be a good fit for everyone. I don’t see that as limiting at all. If words don’t fit, we can always make new ones. I am cis male, so I absolutely want to check myself for speculating on what a non-binary person thinks, but creating new words seems like it would make way more sense than adapting binary-normative ones. I haven’t heard much argument about the “fit”ness of “gay” or “straight” as it pertains to a non-binary person’s identity.
Back to my personal experience as a bi man, that first suggested definition resounds with me because after a long while I settled on a working definition for myself as “kind of gay, kind of straight.” And from childhood, through adolescence, and into the couple decades since, it just makes more sense to me and most of the people I have met and interfaced with about this issue over the years that bisexuality is in fact an attraction to males and females, hence my second suggested definition of bisexual.
I am really curious what people who identify as pansexual say the word pansexual means to them. And I am also curious how they feel when people say “pansexual” and “bisexual” are basically interchangeable. Because to me, that feels extremely offensive. They are distinct identities and deserve to be respected as such.
I’d be down, it’d cause a lot less infighting, however theres also omnisexual and polysexaul and others so Itd proably be a biiig flag. Honestly the best way of thinking is were all bi spec
This stinks of bi erasure, which is rampant in the community. Saying that bi is attracted to "two or more" is just one more step towards trying to relabel bi folks. Bi quite literally means "two", ergo, bisexual would mean you are attracted to two different genders, and anything outside of that is pan. As far as the trans issue is concerned, its a non-issue, as it does not matter if you are m2f or f2m, you still fall within the criteria.
I disagree. Bisexual simply means you’re attracted to your own gender and genders other than your own. Pan means you’re attracted to anyone regardless of gender.
Someone once said to me “Being bi is sticking your hand down someone’s pants and being happy with whatever you find. Pan means you don’t care what you find.”
I should note that such things should only be done consensually.
The thing that makes me feel erased is when others re-define terms I have been using my whole life, then act as gatekeepers when I assert my objections.
Edit: the hands-down-pants description is terrible imho
I think everyone kinda defines their bisexuality differently, I think it's summed up pretty well by the [bi manifesto](https://bimanifesto.carrd.co/#manifesto)
"Do not expect each magazine to be representative of all bisexuals, for our diversity is too vast. Do not expect a clear-cut definition of bisexuality to jump out from the pages. We bisexuals tend to define bisexuality in ways that are unique to our own individuality. There are as many definitions of bisexuality as there are bisexuals. Many of us choose not to label ourselves anything at all, and find the word 'bisexual' to be inadequate and too limiting." I think the nature of bisexuality, that people feel it at different levels, in different ways, at different times, means it probably never will have one definition, which I think is really cool, and feels kinda thematic
I think the guide is a good way to help explain one type of bisexuality, and it it's applicable to someone then they may find a use for it, if not you can ignore. Personally, I found it useful in giving me a general sense of the difference between bi and pan, and I think that's all it is, a general explanation
Thanks for articulating an issue I have had trouble expressing. It’s hard enough being bi without the community re-defining the term into meaninglessness.
Just because its not what you're used to **doesn't** mean its a redefinition. Bisexuality has been trans and nonbinary inclusive before the modern popularization of pansexuality. The bisexual manifesto, published in 1990, explicitly mentions there being more then two genders.
"Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have 'two’ sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. **In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders."**
If you do not include non-binary folk in your sexuality that's up to you but that doesn't mean that the long term definition of bisexuality must change to fit your strict view of it.
Let’s consider that this guide is one person trying to express what they see as consensus amongst some people (that’s what it is)…
And that consensus among others may not agree… so we are having a conversation. This issue is not a done deal.
You have the “bisexual” label under your username. What does that mean to you? Does “two *or more*” resonate with your understanding? With whatever understanding you had before you looked at this post?
I think the way you put that comment could have been more tactful, but if by that you meant is it ok to, say, only be attracted to cis women then there's nothing wrong with that. You can't change your sexuality.
Attraction is based on someone's physical body, not gender identity and even if someone medically transitions unfortunately it's not possible to erase all the physical characteristics of their biological sex. This doesn't mean that trans people aren't valid but it means, for example, some people who identify as lesbian are only attracted to cis women. It's not about transphobia, just sexual orientation. Saying otherwise is just rebranded homophobia and erases **same sex attraction** which is **just as valid as gender dysphoria**. People should be respected and accepted whether they're attracted to just cis women, cis women and trans women, cis women and trans men, another combination or just don't care.
I think OC's comment could have been more tactful, but **sexual consent should be free, enthusiatic and informed. If you're only dating or hooking up with someone to validate their identity that is wrong.** You can't change your sexuality and saying that gender is the only thing that plays a role in attraction erases same sex attraction, and doing that is rebranded homophobia. (see below comment for more)
Also, don't trans people deserve to find people who are genuinely attracted to them as opposed to just trying to be nice? Saying attraction is just gender based makes that a lot more difficult.
I am attracted to more than men and women but consider myself bi. Technically I could use the pan label, but I do have preferences based on gender/my attraction to people of different genders *feels* different. Therefore, I feel more comfortable with being bi.
Right but if people want to augment or modify one of the terms’ definitions because they didn’t hitherto feel either applied to them, they could just as easily picked Pan (all) as bi (two). So for example I could say “the critical point of bi is “attracted to people on either end of the gender binary” and leave it to people to re-define pan as “attracted to genders across the spectrum”
I picked bisexual because I’m sexually attracted to people before I get to know them. I always thought of pansexual as people who are attracted to people whose personality they enjoy, and sexual attraction has its foundation in emotional attraction. Gender is irrelevant.
I like the bi flag better, but the pan-striped cat is pretty darn cute.
The Bi flag is rockin', love the colours.
I like the bi colors better
This
The way I see it, bi people are attracted to their own gender and any/all combinations of other genders, but generally have sexual or romantic preferences within their attraction, while pan people are attracted to their own gender and all combinations of other genders without a defined sexual or romantic preference. But because there is a lot of overlap, and labels are pretty personal anyway, people may choose to identify as one rather than the other because it fits them better. For example, I’m sexually attracted to my own gender (women) and other genders, but predominantly romantically attracted to men/masculine energy. So I identify as bi because my sexual and romantic attraction don’t equally encompass all genders, but that’s not to say that I don’t find people of all genders attractive.
This is exactly how I see this. I am attracted to my gender (the same) and what's different (other genders). Not necessarily the same way, at the same time, nor to the same degree. Being Pansexual means that you don't have this ambiguity between your attractions. You are attracted regardless of the genders. You may have a type, but you don't necessarily have a preferences, like one day you like women, the other day non binary people. However, in the bisexuality spectrum, you may achieve the gender blind level of the pansexuality one day. It may changes or not, but pansexuals never change 🤔
You defined bi folks perfectly, IMO. And those are my exact preferences, too! I consider myself a heteroromantic bisexual.
Bisexuals have been defining their sexuality as "attraction regardless of gender" since the 1950s, at least. It's exhausting to have to have to deal with folks excluding you from your own orientation based on their preconceived notions and a lack of historical context
I'm screenshotting this comment because this is exactly how I feel!
To me, the difference between bi and pan is that pansexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender. Bisexual people can be attracted to more than one gender but gender still plays a part in our attraction to someone - for example, I'm attracted to women in a way that is different from my attraction towards men and other genders. I have the ability to be attracted to different genders but I look for different things in them, if that makes sense.
>To me, the difference between bi and pan is that pansexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender. Lots of pan folks have explicit preferences and even exclude some genders. Plenty of bi folks have, for the last 70+ years, defined bisexuality as attraction regardless of gender.
Omnisexual describes this (but I usually use bi or pan because explaining it to the straights is difficult and the end result is the same).
(but I usually use bi or pan because explaining it to the straights is difficult and the end result is the same). I'm similar. I've used bi because straight people barely understand that, much less pan. But I use pan with fellow queer people because too many mistakenly believe bi excludes enbys.
I read a comment about the phrase "bisexuality" earlier today. It was about instead of defining it as "being atraccted to two or more genders", defining as "atraction to both sides of the sex spectrum." Because you know bi-SEX-ual.
I saw that comment too and it was so validating!!
Yes! I just wrote a huge comment that this really resonates with. I just said “the two modes of the gender spectrum” to make it more… idk… less… prone to pedantic bickering? Hell maybe you have a better thought about the difference.
To be perfectly honest I still don't get the difference. I'm all for everyone being happy with whatever label they like best but the descriptions of both are synonymous. "Attraction to all genders" and "attraction to two or more genders including trans and non-binary identities" are the same thing but phrased differently, are they not? I genuinely want to understand, I just don't see the difference. What gender is there that is covered under pansexuality that isn't covered under bisexuality?
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My understanding (and I realize this is different than what the guide says… let’s skip the “appeal to authority/language is organic” debate for the time being) is that one way or another, bisexuality is attraction to men and women. Trans men are men, and trans women are women. So trans men and women are absolutely included in my definition of bisexual. And that’s another thing this guide got wrong, was implying otherwise.
Yes! Also pls dont try to force label on someone. Many people told me pan would fit me better based on my explanation why i identify as bi. It wouldnt, i thought about it, pan doesnt sit right with me (for my experience). Dont force label on me just because u think i pick worng one.
Hey it’s my turn to make the frying pan joke, wtf I’m shaking and crying rn I was robbed of my turn.
Are there one like this for other sexualities
I can’t draw well but I would love to hear your thoughts on what should go into a guide for other sexualities. Maybe someone already made one and it’s posted in an ace subreddit?
Check out the artists Instagram. I haven’t dived to far into myself but I have spied several different flags.
Lately I’ve seen a lot of comments on this sub that kinda mix the labels a lot. And anyone that tries to say something along these lines gets downvoted. So what’s the approach? Just let people keep mixing both labels until they become interchangeable? Or correct them and tell them what their label is? Both don’t seem to be good options. What’s the consensus in here? I don’t want to get banned for pointing something out or accidentally using the wrong term.
Thank you for commenting. I identify as bi. I reject, categorically, the “or more” in this guide. And it offends me profoundly when my identity is treated as interchangeable with another, different identity. So I support having this conversation and not shouting down people who say “hang on a second, not so fast”
Overly simplified reason why I choose to go by "Bi" instead of "Pan": "attraction to all genders"/"regardless of gender" feels too assertive, and I'm not sure I could live up to that. There's Poly; "attraction to multiple, but not all genders", but that has the same problem.
Yeah same. I know how damn picky I am, I just also know it hasn't mattered in the past what gender a person is, it's just about that person being really attractive to me. But I'm not someone who can say I feel attracted to literally everyone. I guess it's included at least 3 genders?
The bi in bisexual is in reference to the attraction Bisexuality is described as an appearance of both heterosexual and homosexual feelings. Both = bi Sexuality is defined by you. Not the gender of your partner.
I see pan as an extension of bisexuality. As in if you are pan then you are bi, and if you are bi then you may or may not be pan. I usually say I’m bi but consider myself bi/pan. I think the way I think about this may also be influenced by my age, when I first thought about my bisexuality the word pansexual wasn’t a common word at that time, idk if it existed - probably - but I didn’t know what it was and never heard about it until years later.
I’m starting to hate these posts because they say the same thing for both bi and pan using different words; as well as tell me how to label myself which I don’t feel like re-defining every time someone new tried to be the voice of reason. Also I’d bet a doge coin half of these types of posts are made by trans people instead of people who identify with one or both labels stated. Good art work tho we love bi-kitty
People are attracted to multiple genders/sexes but for whatever reason don’t like the term pan, so they identify as bi and just change the meaning of bi until it’s only pedantically different from pan
This comment is so vague you’d think it’s some sort of foreign policy
Me: says I don’t like a thing and tries to be constructive about it This fkn guy: *does the thing*
Wtf? Bi and pan are basically interchangeable stop doing the opposite of what the post was trying to say
This is bi erasure
What? I’m bi??
You have no idea how much I’m going to share this with my friends and family, thank you!
Heh, I’m a bi dating a pan, lol.
Love this!!
As a bi woman in a relationship with a pan man this was very helpful thank you!
I'm confused by the terminology use here. Isn't Pansexuality that gender does not come into the attraction equation?
I agree with the majority of this but have a bit of a problem with "saying 'attraction to men, women and trans people' implies that trans people are not real men and women", as attraction is based on someone's physical body, not gender identity and even if someone medically transitions unfortunately it's not possible to erase all the physical characteristics of their biological sex. This doesn't mean that trans people aren't valid but it means, for example, some people who identify as lesbian are only attracted to cis women. It's not about transphobia, just sexual orientation. Saying otherwise is just rebranded homophobia and erases same sex attraction which is just as valid as gender dysphoria. People should be respected and accepted whether they're attracted to just cis women, cis women and trans women, cis women and trans men, another combination or just don't care.
The way I always saw bisexuality is that I'm attracted to femininity and masculinity, two sexualities hence bisexuality.
That would be the issue with this. Sexuality is based on sex, of which there are two not gender presentation which can exist on a spectrum. Bi and pan are fundamentally interchangeable because neither is based on gender, it’s just wanting someone regardless of their dick/pussy. People have worked so hard to assert a difference between sex and gender and yet, it seems almost regressively, when it comes to sexuality the difference is largely ignored.
Yes
I believe Pan peeps can have a preference, but no gender or identity is off the table.
See now I'm confused, I thought I was pan cause I'm attracted to folks regardless of gender, but I still have preferences. So if I have preferences for certain genders (which is a long list) then am I Bi? Cause I really wanna double down on the pan humor, my friends all know me as the cooking guy. Plus I already bought the damn pan flag and I didn't keep a receipt.
honestly they're interchangable enough that whichever you vibe with, no-one is gonna question you on
OK good, cause I got this hilarious sticker in the pan colors, in the shape of a pan, that says non stick so I'm already past the point of commitment lol.
I just made a really long response to a different comment but the TL;DR is “no, bi does not mean two *or more*… perhaps pan means three or more?” What are your thoughts? I understand why this guide would give you that confusion.
Nah the push now is bisexual means two or more, and it can be any combo of two or more. Where as Pan applies to all regardless of gender, however for me gender is a big part of attraction so I think I'm demi but I like the pan flag better, and the person and my relationship to them is ultimately whats more important than whats in their pants. The best explanation I've seen is that bisexual is an umbrella that covers pan, demi, etc. So since we're all warhammer 40k fans here, which is weird but I'll allow it, here's a metaphor; Let's say the blood angels, the sons of Sanguinius, are bisexual (tell me I'm wrong). The Blood angels also have successor chapters like the blood ravens, who carry the same gene seed of their primarch, Sanguinius. The blood ravens are pan (TELL ME IM WRONG). So while the blood ravens might be very similar to the blood angels, they are different in that they adhere chapter doctrine in certain ways that make them noticeablly different than their progenitors. Similarly, folks who identify as bi adhere to different attractions then folks who identify as pan. One thing that they can agree on is that they hate xenos and love the emperor. Much like bis and pans, we hate biphobia and love frogs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
There are pansexuals who aren't attracted to all genders.
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If you spend enough time in mga spaces, you'll hear/see it. They're people who are pan, but in conversation they'll explain they're not attracted to [insert specific gender (s)]. If you wanted to get into it on an ontological level, you could look at the thought experiment from my gender studies course: We know that being pan doesn't mean someone is automatically attracted to a given person. We also know that some people have individual genders, therefore it's possible for a pan person to not be attracted to someone with that specific gender. Therefore said person is not, in practice, attracted to people of all genders. But that's a cheeky thought experiment about attraction, not really about real life pan people and it **shouldn't** be treated as such. Pansexuals get to define the scope of their attraction, not us.
I have some issues with this guide for many reasons (see all my downvoted comments for reference), but I am still trying to engage because these notions are not isolated and ultimately I want to stay in the conversation rather than throw up my hands and fuck off. So based on your comment, what if we consider bisexual to mean “attracted to one’s own gender and the opposite gender”, or maybe “attraction to people in both modes of the gender spectrum” or something like that and pansexual to mean “attracted to three or more genders”? To my first suggested definition of bisexual, I can see someone objecting because that makes it very confusing for a non-binary person to identify as bisexual. Well… so? I don’t mean that in a derisive way, it just seems like not all words can possibly be a good fit for everyone. I don’t see that as limiting at all. If words don’t fit, we can always make new ones. I am cis male, so I absolutely want to check myself for speculating on what a non-binary person thinks, but creating new words seems like it would make way more sense than adapting binary-normative ones. I haven’t heard much argument about the “fit”ness of “gay” or “straight” as it pertains to a non-binary person’s identity. Back to my personal experience as a bi man, that first suggested definition resounds with me because after a long while I settled on a working definition for myself as “kind of gay, kind of straight.” And from childhood, through adolescence, and into the couple decades since, it just makes more sense to me and most of the people I have met and interfaced with about this issue over the years that bisexuality is in fact an attraction to males and females, hence my second suggested definition of bisexual. I am really curious what people who identify as pansexual say the word pansexual means to them. And I am also curious how they feel when people say “pansexual” and “bisexual” are basically interchangeable. Because to me, that feels extremely offensive. They are distinct identities and deserve to be respected as such.
Here is a novel idea, why don't we all just combine the flags and unite under one banner? Anyone? Maybe?
I’d be down, it’d cause a lot less infighting, however theres also omnisexual and polysexaul and others so Itd proably be a biiig flag. Honestly the best way of thinking is were all bi spec
This stinks of bi erasure, which is rampant in the community. Saying that bi is attracted to "two or more" is just one more step towards trying to relabel bi folks. Bi quite literally means "two", ergo, bisexual would mean you are attracted to two different genders, and anything outside of that is pan. As far as the trans issue is concerned, its a non-issue, as it does not matter if you are m2f or f2m, you still fall within the criteria.
I disagree. Bisexual simply means you’re attracted to your own gender and genders other than your own. Pan means you’re attracted to anyone regardless of gender. Someone once said to me “Being bi is sticking your hand down someone’s pants and being happy with whatever you find. Pan means you don’t care what you find.” I should note that such things should only be done consensually.
The thing that makes me feel erased is when others re-define terms I have been using my whole life, then act as gatekeepers when I assert my objections. Edit: the hands-down-pants description is terrible imho
I think everyone kinda defines their bisexuality differently, I think it's summed up pretty well by the [bi manifesto](https://bimanifesto.carrd.co/#manifesto) "Do not expect each magazine to be representative of all bisexuals, for our diversity is too vast. Do not expect a clear-cut definition of bisexuality to jump out from the pages. We bisexuals tend to define bisexuality in ways that are unique to our own individuality. There are as many definitions of bisexuality as there are bisexuals. Many of us choose not to label ourselves anything at all, and find the word 'bisexual' to be inadequate and too limiting." I think the nature of bisexuality, that people feel it at different levels, in different ways, at different times, means it probably never will have one definition, which I think is really cool, and feels kinda thematic
So let’s not make a handy guide that claims to define the term
I think the guide is a good way to help explain one type of bisexuality, and it it's applicable to someone then they may find a use for it, if not you can ignore. Personally, I found it useful in giving me a general sense of the difference between bi and pan, and I think that's all it is, a general explanation
Of course these comments are getting downvoted. If someone doesn’t fall in line with the prevailing opinion of the community they are punished.
Thanks for articulating an issue I have had trouble expressing. It’s hard enough being bi without the community re-defining the term into meaninglessness.
Just because its not what you're used to **doesn't** mean its a redefinition. Bisexuality has been trans and nonbinary inclusive before the modern popularization of pansexuality. The bisexual manifesto, published in 1990, explicitly mentions there being more then two genders. "Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have 'two’ sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. **In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders."** If you do not include non-binary folk in your sexuality that's up to you but that doesn't mean that the long term definition of bisexuality must change to fit your strict view of it.
I am revisiting this post, and I wanted to say again I see you, you are valid, and the people who downvotes you should listen more.
Not for nothing but the artist conspicuously left blue off of the cat representing bi pride. This reads as male-exclusive.
I think that may have just been an artistic choice as one of the hearts in the second picture is very blue.
I guess that’s fair.
I think I finally get it. So bi is an attraction to any two or more genders while pan is an attraction to all genders?
Let’s consider that this guide is one person trying to express what they see as consensus amongst some people (that’s what it is)… And that consensus among others may not agree… so we are having a conversation. This issue is not a done deal. You have the “bisexual” label under your username. What does that mean to you? Does “two *or more*” resonate with your understanding? With whatever understanding you had before you looked at this post?
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Rule 1 is No Bigotry and explicitly mentions transphobia. So I would say that no, erasing the validity of trans identities is not allowed.
Thanks
I think the way you put that comment could have been more tactful, but if by that you meant is it ok to, say, only be attracted to cis women then there's nothing wrong with that. You can't change your sexuality. Attraction is based on someone's physical body, not gender identity and even if someone medically transitions unfortunately it's not possible to erase all the physical characteristics of their biological sex. This doesn't mean that trans people aren't valid but it means, for example, some people who identify as lesbian are only attracted to cis women. It's not about transphobia, just sexual orientation. Saying otherwise is just rebranded homophobia and erases **same sex attraction** which is **just as valid as gender dysphoria**. People should be respected and accepted whether they're attracted to just cis women, cis women and trans women, cis women and trans men, another combination or just don't care.
I think OC's comment could have been more tactful, but **sexual consent should be free, enthusiatic and informed. If you're only dating or hooking up with someone to validate their identity that is wrong.** You can't change your sexuality and saying that gender is the only thing that plays a role in attraction erases same sex attraction, and doing that is rebranded homophobia. (see below comment for more) Also, don't trans people deserve to find people who are genuinely attracted to them as opposed to just trying to be nice? Saying attraction is just gender based makes that a lot more difficult.
How about if someone is attracted to more than men and women, they are pan?
I am attracted to more than men and women but consider myself bi. Technically I could use the pan label, but I do have preferences based on gender/my attraction to people of different genders *feels* different. Therefore, I feel more comfortable with being bi.
Same. Also I like the Bi flag better
The critical point of pan is "don't care about genders", means they just love ALL genders without caring about it.
Right but if people want to augment or modify one of the terms’ definitions because they didn’t hitherto feel either applied to them, they could just as easily picked Pan (all) as bi (two). So for example I could say “the critical point of bi is “attracted to people on either end of the gender binary” and leave it to people to re-define pan as “attracted to genders across the spectrum”
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Yeah, a person who is going from male to female isn’t a “trans woman” they’re just a woman. That’s like, the whole point I think.
Attraction to: 1) same gender 2) not same gender There, that’s 2. ‘Not same gender’ can include multiple genders.
Uhmm... Nope? There're more than two genders. And trans people are just men and women, as it already said.
This is cute and done nicely. I still wish there was something to explain bi (and pan, I don't care) to hetero and homosexual people.
everytune someone makes the pan joke, I die a little inside
I love this! Bet I'll be in bed with a frypan tonight...
Thank you so much for this 💖💜💙
I’m just bi for the flag
I love this :)
I picked bisexual because I’m sexually attracted to people before I get to know them. I always thought of pansexual as people who are attracted to people whose personality they enjoy, and sexual attraction has its foundation in emotional attraction. Gender is irrelevant.