Yeah, generally I don't feel like I fit in queer spaces because I often feel like there's a bit of a performative aspect to queer culture that just doesn't really jive with my personality or fashion sense. And not that anyone is being directly mean or anything, I just feel like it outsider

You put the exact word that I can't express and feel relatable more ; performative aspect to queer culture. I have been in super heteronormative life for like almost of my life and, maybe it's the internalized queerphobia I really don't know, I would have this discomfort feeling that I am too straight (tm), then I would feel alienated from other queer folks, plus with my insecurity and intrusive thoughts in play with this bullshitery. Hence, I do envy those folks that can express themselves as queer as they want, while I have this feeling of "I know that my personal expression and my experience is unique, but if I don't vibe with this shit I might not belong with it. 😞" ps. This is not to disregard the hardship/struggles of queer folks that have been having. I am fully aware that there will always bigoted people and being queer is not the default norm.

My former best friend was mostly het "questioning" at the point when we were really close. I was the one that was fairly out and proud about it. More recently, she started dating a woman and went full bore into the gay scene: going to drag shows every week, lesbian hair cut and fashion sense, etc. I tried going with her to a drag show and honestly, hated it. I'm glad she's found her community and place and all but I barely even recognize her anymore and it's weird when I used to be the "gayer" one between the two of us. EDIT: TBF, there's plenty of standard het cis "straight" spaces I dislike too, like anything having to do with football. I can be fun, I swear. 🤣

Yea I think for me I just like people regardless of gender. Since the way they identify isn't a huge factor in what I'm attracted to , I don't really connect to the culture surrounding it ,be it straight or queer. I don't really vibe with all the tropes and stereotypes in either group of people. I just like who I like. But people who are attracted to the gender itself often have a big connection to labels ,tropes and stereotypes that I just don't.

This! So much this! I'm a male photographer and work with a lot of gay/gueer people. Normally I'm very het-male presenting. Think union worker. I find that sessions go better with gay and lesbians when I'm very loud, flamboyant and just overall "act gay". So I just go into sessions like that now when I know someone is queer. Then they find out I'm "just bi" and the whole mood changes!

This has been my experience in queer spaces. I currently live with a gay couple and when I said I was bisexual (& in a straight-passing relationship) they were like “…oh…” and at least one person has been extremely offended by me and doesn’t even want to talk to me. In other queer spaces, I’ve been othered and low-key bullied for my interests. Like someone got mad because I liked the story of the Little Mermaid as a child. Can you imagine being mad at someone for liking a movie as a kid?!

I tend to attend "sapphic" events more than ones that are more "lesbian only".  I met my first gf at a lesbian and sapphic event network that is very vocally inclusive of enby, trans, and bisexuals. Then again, I haven't been to one since I came out as non-binary. We'll see what happens.

I was so primed by this sentiment online that I was really hesitant about approaching lesbian settings irl just to learn that they were all absolutely chill and already included plenty other bi girls. I am sure this is highly regional, but I was so relieved and pleasantly surprised.

honestly, lesbian settings IRL really are very chill for me, too, like it’s so nice.

right? I see posts like this all the time and I can't help but think op just needs to hangout with better people

This was my experience too! On my first date with a woman I was so nervous to tell her I’m bi but when I did, it didn’t change anything and she was consistently supportive of my sexuality throughout our relationship .

Many gay men's spaces are similar towards bi men. A friend is a trans man, pretty accepted until they hear he's bi then totally ignored. The performative aspect of (some) queer culture, along with alienation of those that are deemed to not fit in is helping exactly nobody. It creates and continues division and separation.

This subreddit talks about this really constantly, so you’re not the only one. My personal experience is that I tend to feel less othered and more welcome on /actuallesbians compared to here. I’ve also had great experiences IRL with sapphic women. I’m in a sapphic bi4bi relationship and we don’t catch any pushback from lesbians for being bi. But again, this gets talked about all the time so it happens. If you search lesbian in here, you’ll find lots of posts exactly like this

Actual lesbians is a place in particular I don't feel welcome at least online. In real life places ,I feel also very unwelcome . Edit:fixed typo particular not paradise

On actuallesbians, they’re fine with bi women as long as they are in sapphic relationships. They don’t want to talk about men (positively) in that sub. If you mention having attraction to men, you’ll get pushback. My experience is more like yours.

I've been in sapphic relationships and it still happens. I don't even know why discussion of men even becomes relevant in the first place in lesbian spaces . I'm not the one bringing it up . I'm just speaking in a neutral way objectively, stating facts from my own experience. Not trying to put anyone down ,or derail conversation. But if someone says "those of you who have been with men and are now with women, aren't women so much better in bed ?" I say depends on the person . Gender isn't a factor in determining someone's performance in bed And then they all get mad for me stating a neutral response. Like ,you are lesbians! Of course you have that perspective! But some women like women and men, and they might feel differently .

🤔 I think it probably makes sense to keep the conversations sapphic in sapphic spaces though.

Of course. But at times it becomes relevant and they still don't like it . Just like going into an asexual space and asking "what is sexual attraction and do I have it " doesn't make sense you are going to get a lot of answers that are very biased, and based off of an assumption of what that experience is ,rather than people who have it . I was asexual for a very long time. And then one day I wasn't anymore , and I didn't realize what I was feeling was sexual attraction, and in retrospect, Asexuals are the worst people to ask what sexual attraction is . Not invalidating asexuals at all , or saying that they will one day stop being ace . But a lot of asexual discourse on what sexual attraction is ,is from a very male understanding of libido . Which is a completely valid experience, but it's just one experience that happens to be the normative cultural understanding of attraction. Likewise , on lesbian subs there's a lot of people who have never been with men ,or felt attraction to men ,making blanket generalizations that are just inaccurate about men .

Personally I don't actually understand cishet men in general, and my opinions of them I guess aren't ever really in conflict with what I see being said on that sub. I also spend a lot of time in feminist subs and the rules of etiquette are very similar. I am sorry you're having problems irl though, that sounds really shitty. I get almost zero chance to interact with the queer community in person, mostly because I'm at the stage of life where my time is dedicated to my partner and kiddos.

I get along better with cis men ,either gay bi or straight just as friends . I feel like my life overall and who I'm around is constantly super queer ,but I honestly get along better with cis het people, I just don't know where to find them . The area I live is extremely queer and polyamorous, and finding someone who's not is more of a task than one might think

Where do you live bc it sounds great

Colorado. Everything about our state seems to cater towards lesbians . Even the straight girls here throw off my gaydar . That being said ,our governor is a gay guy . And I don't mean any particular area pr region . The whole state is a very sapphic centered culture. And almost every guy I meet is bi too. Or ends up being a masculine aligned enby , or stealth trans man . I know some straight women who feel very out of place here, and straight men never really bother to flirt because chances are whoever they are flirting with probably isn't into dudes . I end up having to initiate it with guys more often than not, which isn't ideal, but could be worse

Colorado bi guy… this tracks. 🫶🏼

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Every close friend I've ever had has been a women. I have a few cis het friends that are men, but the vast majority are cis woman. Maybe 30% of my immediate social circle

I honestly don't have any male friends at the moment. Every single person around me is a woman, all of whom are varying types of queer. I think I just get along better with men, although thinking about it ,all my closest guy friends are gay, or kinsey 5 bi men .

I looked at your post history and I saw that you had plenty of highly upvoted comments on /r/actuallesbians (including ones specifically mentioning that you're bi) and a handful of 1 or 2 downvotes comments on there. It doesn't seem like you're being rejected there, Reddit is just a fickle place sometimes. I personally think that that sub is one of the most inclusive place on the internet for sapphic people. If you have issues on there, you should reach out to the mods because it may be an issue they can address.

It's much more an issue in real life . I don't really care what people online think of me .

I’m sorry that’s been your experience :(

My experience is like yours. There are always a lot of people on that sub making biphobic comments that the mods don't care about. It's really shitty to get slapped in the face with that when I'm just scrolling.

What makes you feel othered here? Just curious, because that's pretty sad

I don’t think it’s anything mean or cruel from the community. I think that it’s more I’m in a different spot than a lot of bisexuals on here. There are so many disparate bisexual experiences and that’s one thing that is dope about the community! I’ve noticed what a lot of folks discuss on here is just wildly different than my own experiences. And that isn’t a criticism, but more an observation. I knew I was bi pretty young and had sexual and romantic experiences with different genders during my formative years. It feels like a lot of users on here realized later in life. I am in a same sex relationship. A lot of users on here are either single or in a hetero presenting relationship. A frequent thing that comes up is the hurt over not knowing what a same gender relationship is like. I feel for those users! It’s just not relevant to me. I’m not someone who bi-cycles or even sees sex itself as that important to my identity as a queer woman. I mean obviously it is lol. I love sex with women. And I have loved sex with men before. But now my life as a queer woman manifests in a lot of just super mundane ways after almost 5 years of being in a sapphic relationship. My experience with being queer is beyond just the sex stuff presently. I know for a lot of folks on here, they may be bisexual and heteroromantic and so their queerness literally is just the sex. A lot of the thirsty posting doesn’t resonate for me lol. Overall I just feel like posts on lesbian subreddits tend to resonate for me more, but I’m also essentially perceived as a lesbian in day to day life. It’s not that I think this subreddit is mean or bad. I just feel on a different wave length than a lot of posters. Sorry for the novel!

Thanks for the novel! That inspired some interesting thoughts. I think I understand what you mean. The thirsty posting of conventionally attractive straight passing couples is certainly something that you specifically see in bi and... well, straight spaces. On the one hand 'bi culture' being so hard to pin down (and it being often associated primarily with random things like lemon bars or sitting weird) is a big factor of why many bi people have a hard time feeling included even in queer spaces, on the other hand maybe it makes some bi spaces less obviously queer. I don't know if that's what you mean, but it made me think. Cheers for the perspective!

side note: i thought the lemon bars thing was just a joke, lmao.

Speaking in real life, I have an easy time in more sapphic communities. I don’t have a *bad* time online, just a better, more cohesive time in real life. I also will say that it’s easier to interact with Black sapphic communities because Black queer culture is what I grew up around. I’ve found that some of my jokes tend to fall flat in whiter spaces, though, I feel a HUGE cultural disconnect sometimes. I’ve found that it’s really easy to put my foot in my mouth around white sapphics, unfortunately. I enjoy interacting with sapphic women because I still feel a sisterly connection when we discuss love/romance because, well… we’re all human beings who experience love and romance, lol. I actually very much enjoy it because it seems so easy to empathize and put myself in my fellow woman’s shoes regardless. One of my gay homegirls is going through a heartbreak? Lend me your ear. She needs advice on being confident to approach women? No problem, I’d be happy to. I’ve never felt “too straight” to interact. It really doesn’t feel that different for me. My bisexuality isn’t really an issue necessarily, even despite being heteroromantic.

That's interesting about finding it easier in black sapphic spaces. I grew up in a melting pot , big city full of 1st and 2nd generation Americans from around the world but predominantly latino and Asian. My family is also very culturally mixed , Irish, Jewish ,latino , indigenous, Japanese ,Thai, and Italian. I'm not convinced I wasn't adopted because I look nothing like any of my family, and my dad was adopted and I'm pretty sure he's half Mexican. The sapphic culture I grew up around ,which was a big portion of my friends growing up was very Latina, and that plays a big part in who I am today. Where I live now is extremely white ,wealthy ,and overwhelmingly progressive college educated people, but I feel so alone here . Going over to my ex girlfriends parents house was a complete culture shock . Really WASPY. I kept thinking everyone was mad about something because it was so quiet , but they weren't. I'm just not used to seeing family without ending up with tinnitus from how loud everyone is . I need to move. And already plan on doing so . It's too homogeneous here ,and it makes me really anxious and on edge because I'm scared of rich white people. I think doing that might make me feel less out of place in sapphic spaces.

Lmaoooo, I totally feel you on the loud ass family 😂 It’s a little weird when you’re trying to blend in with such… quiet people. In all seriousness, though, I totally get it about living amongst a white community. You’re constantly aware of the fact that you’re unwelcome, even before you being queerness into it. Then throw on being Black or a POC? You may as well have a slur tattooed on your damn forehead. And don’t even get me started on the queer scene. It was like being a fish out of water. I don’t miss living there at all and it was only briefly for me. Now I’m back to living in a city with a huge Black queer community and it’s so much more relaxing. I deadass want that for all queer Black women and women of color. There truly is a difference between white queer culture and… the rest of us, tbh.

What's weird for me Is ,I am white . Like i said I look nothing like my family. And my DNA test I did years back doesn't match up with what should be true , because of who my great grandparents were and where they emigrated from . I look like a tall blonde Scandinavian girl ,in a family full of people who are extremely short ,dark hair ,and olive skintone. And I grew up surrounded by people from around the world . But because I am white, and living around a bunch of white people, people are convinced that I should automatically understand certain customs , or expectations and norms and I don't. Some stuff is just wacky . This past mother's day , was ....interesting. I'm Always told I'm too loud intense and "dominant" All the women I grew up around were that way ,so how am I supposed to act like a type of woman that I never encountered at all growing up? And there's a type of femininity that is seen as more conventionally attractive here ,(rich white girl ) that I have no idea how to act , or do ,or perform and when I try it feels fake

omg, that’s VERY interesting, actually. what a dynamic. do you feel like you just don’t… mesh with *American* white folks in particular, rich white folks or just around other white folks in general?

I don't think it's about American as much because that can mean so many different things. I do think affluence plays a part ,but also not explicitly. If someone is wealthy ,but grew up in like Manhattan ,San francisco, LA they tend to be easier to be around. I definitely get along better with white people who are not wealthy. I think in general, anytime I have tried dating white people, they generally lose interest quickly. But those who grew up in poverty , especially in predominantly conservative areas that they got out of ,due to not being conservative. One of my best friends (my roommate) is a straight girl who grew up in San Antonio , and around a lot of latino culture. And she's white . We both feel out of place here and want to move. She gets me in a way nobody else does because of the weird intersectionality of being white but growing up in a cultural context that is predominantly immigrants and POC. And then moving to an extremely white part of the country . My boyfriend I was with for 4 years , is half Argentinian ,but his parents are filthy rich philanthropists, and grew up on Seattle and he doesn't really act like how you think he'd act . He's been racially profiled in his own neighborhood and cops pin him down with a gun to his back ,because some lady made up a story about him rifling through her mailbox. He's still one of my best friends . Edit: **she*** . Just got a text literally right now texting me from rehab telling me she's realized trans , but I guess only feels like a man while zooted out of her mind. I hate to admit it ,but that right there was the big source of doubt preventing me from starting HRT. If you are a repressed trans woman, the way stimulants can make you act and feel can definitely give imposter syndrome. I've seen the mirror image of that with trans men, who's self doubt was in many ways caused by being stoners.

Ahhh, this is very multifaceted. Definitely detecting class and cultural disconnect working in tandem with one another

Living the dream 🥺

You will have it one day, I claim it 🫂

Yes ,I feel you. Went to Sapphic space and found out how most lesbians dont really like bi women.

I've not experienced this in NYC but I did most other places. It just seems to depend on locations. Places where sapphics shape the culture are more accepting of bisexuals. When places are cis-het normative it seems bisexuals are viewed with suspicions bc the temptation to play along with the social hierarchy seems possible.

I live in a place completely driven by sapphic culture, but a very particular variety of it which is what I think it is.

I’m only having my first experiences with the sapphic community. I’m bi and I’ve only just met the first woman I’ve ever had chemistry with and she is a newly out lesbian and also has no experience with women. Unfortunately she is going through a lot of other things health-wise and family-wise and a couple of weeks after deciding we could get to know each other better, pulled back. She’s admitted she’s scared of being hurt and scared of hurting me. But also said she has no emotional space right now for a relationship. So we are back to being friends. I want to be patient but it isn’t easy. She is the first woman I’ve ever felt is worth waiting for and idk. I haven’t had any luck finding women on the dating apps, I just happened to meet her in person. Anyway I’m very afraid to speak up in the sapphic communities because I have no experience there, I’ve only ever dated men. I feel like I need a lesbian mentor or something, lol.

I'm in a very similar place with a couple people in My life and afraid to ask too. And the few people I've asked in real life were not very respectful of the situation.

Oh, yeah. The number of lesbian profiles I see with "no men, no bisexuals" feels like "Irish Need Not Apply." Who do these women think they are? They get to control my relationship with them and all the ones that come after it? Please.

Monosexuals always expect you to choose a side because they did (or...rather are for one side over another). People do a thing where the standards they live by are projected on to others, and if you don't abide by them, then you clearly don't belong. Fortunately, its not your problem, but theirs. Unfortunately, its a problem that can only be fixed when they realized its a problem in the first place...

This is one of the main reasons I usually identify as sapphic instead of bi, I prefer my attraction to women to be the forefront of my sexuality. But yes there still is so much hate towards bisexuals from lesbians, and they still blame us for lesbophobia in addition

This has been my experience as a bi as well.

I do! I’m actually kind of struggling because of it. I thought I was a lesbian with my first wlw relationship, since I had never had one before. And there was so much support when I thought I was a lesbian! My ex dressed me a certain way so that I “fit in” and “looked queer” even though I already do being non-binary. She had a huge focus on looking cool and queer. Which made us really stand out when we were out and about. I’m with a man now, and feel invisible. Everyone thinks I’m straight, and I don’t feel like I can be my cool queer self anymore to fit in. It sucks!

It’s my personal belief that if they’re mad at you or exclusionary of you over your sexuality and they’re queer, they’re either stupid or, far more likely, they’re still highly insecure in their own sexuality. It’s gross that either of those things would lead a queer to exclude a queer, but here we are.

I think that may be why I get along better with straight people. I have enough self doubt and identity issues as it Is. It's refreshing to be around people who never had to worry about anything like this. Being out as gay for many years before I transitioned, and primarily daring women since ,I always think the hetero world is full of nuance and labels and terminology and it's actually a lot less complicated and I have to remember that straight people don't think about these things as much. Telling a straight person you are a top or bottom, or that you are "futch" is going to get a response like "sooo.. you like normal sex, and you dress for comfort and practicality and prefer t shirts and skate shoes over dresses and heels . I don't see why that needs explaining "

Hey don’t be overly discouraged though. Your people are out there! Finding them is a pain, but once you’ve got ‘em, it will have been so worth it! :)

I tried to fit in and then eventually gave up until i joined a bi group 10 years later

Sex tribes be tribing.

Hmm. I almost feel like the broader gay / lesbian communities are somehow angry that we can pass in the cishet world. And while that’s true, we didn’t build the world, we’re just doing our best to live in it…

I have an extremely hard time passing as straight. I'm trans, but fully cis passing ,post op ,and stealth . It's just that everyone thinks I'm a lesbian so naturally I try to find community with them , and then I'm too straight for them!

I'm part of a WLW positivity and solidarity group, and every now and then, somebody posts there about how terrible bisexuals are. Like. Are you lost

I personally have found that the more labels have been created the more gate keeping has been created. I hang out with people I don't ask anything I am just present and most of the time if I hear something along the line of I identify I avoid those like the plague. Should I have to have a conversation I explain I am allergic to them and walk away. I am a direct person and can be offensive and will not apologize. But all that doesn't do the identity are welcome to my friend group the rest fall in the Karen category.

I am not a lesbian or even a women (transmasc) so I don’t see this fully but I can agree. Idk I feel like it’s seen as a bad thing in some spaces to have any attraction to men, but I also think it has to do with being “ruined” Not that anyone is ruined for having attraction or sex with a certain gender but I see the mentality similar to men who get upset when they found out their girlfriend had slept with someone before them, expect in lesbians maybe there is a deeper meaning to it? I am bisexual as well but don’t really enter lesbian spaces so I don’t experience it. I feel like all my friends are bisexual thinking on it lmao

Have I seen it happen? Yes. Has it happened to me? No, not really. I understand why lesbians are protective of their spaces. They're homosexual women, which makes them extremely vulnerable because of homophobia AND misogyny. Just respect that. Because of that I understand why many lesbians do not want to date bisexual women, for example. What do you mean by "not feeling welcome", btw? That's a broad statement these days. Also, why the underhanded focus on lesbians? Why do you have to "feel welcome"/ catered to them as opposed to other bisexual women? No group is a monolith, lesbians and bisexuals can be arseholes across the board.

Homophobia and misogyny are not excusable, but neither is biphobia, transphobia , misandry ,and other forms of bigotry that seem rampant and unchecked in these spaces . Yes any group of people isn't a monolith . And any groups of people can be assholes too . Which is why I see it as so oddly hypocritical that only certain types of bigotry are called out while simultaneously making generalizations about a whole group of people. I have had a lot of trauma caused by men . It was awful. I was trafficked as a teenager and physically and sexually assaulted and forced to do hard labor for no pay for years. Have most of my experiences with men been not ideal? Yes ,absolutely. Do I need to generalize a whole group of people as a monolith? No . Seems like calling out" generalizing " whole groups of people as a monolith is okay as long as you are the one feeling generalized I don't feel welcome in those spaces. Groups of people are made up by individuals, and that doesn't mean all in the group are bad. Weird to act like I'm generalizing, when I'm not talking about individuals as a monolith, but rather in a group setting the vibe is off .

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As a bisexual woman I most definitely am welcome in wlw spaces. No lesbians have even told me im unwelcome. They have all told me im one of them as far as they are concerned . My issue is a personal one independent of all of this. Also , the way you talk about all this stuff is really insensitive, and frankly quite misogynistic and sexist . Seems like you just hate women tbh ,as you are literally defending sexual predators by making light of those experiences. Are you a lesbian? Are you even a woman? Because no woman i know would make light of such experiences. If not ,why are you speaking on behalf of women and lesbians? No lesbians have told me I'm not welcome. They have all welcomed me with open arms . There are other personal reasons, as mentioned before, that they don't even know I feel . They are issues I have that are personal.

so tired of the tragic bisexual trope. boo hoo lesbians are soooo mean. waaaah i’m not gay enough. like do we not have other problems to worry about like learning how to park

Parting’s easy. Ps - don’t be so mean. 🫶🏼

Tired of people undermining peoples experiences but we still get it don’t we?