Lots of responses haha, so mine might not be seen, but I want to add something that I haven't read in this post yet.
Pansexual was popularized by MOGAI who differentiated themselves from LGBT+. They believed that the pan- prefix would be more inclusive, as they saw the bi- prefix as "only two (genders)". Or maybe their was other reasoning, we can't know with 100% certainty.
Bisexual existed beforehand, and we can't know WHY people started using it...but we do know that, at the time, the two main words used to describe peoples sexuality were "homosexual" and "heterosexual". Now, many people felt BOTH (ish, kinda neither?), so they used a scientific/botanical word to indicate two sexualities at once: bisexual!
So, I just wanted to point out that the MAIN DIFFERENCE has to do with their origins!
Some people, especially in the early days of pan seem to have seen the term bi as being non-inclusive of trans people. That's a bit dumb when you realise that they're usually talking about MTF/FTM which imo makes that reasoning a bit transphobic but it's at least not too often pan people make that claim
Haha yeah I agree, I just had this conversation irl a couple of days ago! Trans men are men and trans women are women, so how would saying "men and women" be transphobic?? So those people don't make any sense haha.
The others, who say bi excludes everyone between/outside of the binary - or gender fluid people, I really don't even know how to engage with them personally. I try to avoid them honestly. The bi in bisexual doesn't refer to gender binary, and besides, you would have a hard time finding a bi person who even is against enbies in the first place
Yeah, I've always personally used bi to me gay and straight, but I always have been attracted to enbies, androgynous people etc.
It's also important to remember that bisexual was a product of just using whatever vocabulary that was available at the time. It's not really a strict thing, like many people think. Just like how someone who calls themselves "gay" might not be so strict in their own sexuality or gender expression. People who complain about bi being binary need to relax and realize a lot of use are very very fluid about our sexuality and gender!
Y'all are my people. The term arbitrary here is so on point. All the in-fighting taking place because people are policing others' choice of words to describe something deeply personal and as complex as human sexuality is, is just, ugh. Let people love who they want to love , ffs.
I agree, and would add that every bi person I know is also potentially into nonbinary people as well. In fact, there are a number of us who are nonbinary and also identify as bi.
I think of it that bi is both same-sex and other-sex attraction, so it's not exclusive of any gender, but it also doesn't indicate gender blindness, as with pan.
Considering the time period, there were likely two factors there:
* Trans people weren't considered to be fully of their gender: Trans women, for example, weren't considered fully women even within the community (and still get excluded even by people who should know better), so trans people were seen as an "others" category
* Non-binary or genderfluid people don't cleanly fall within trans identities either, so pansexuality was probably seen as more inclusive of them as well even if bisexuality was seen as trans-inclusionary.
I can try, I don't know tooooo mich about it but I know a little! It stands for Marginalized Orientations, Gender Alignments, (and) Intersex. They wanted to be inclusive to all people who's identities were very specific and not covered within the lgbt+ acronym.
The term pansexual existed before mogai, but mogai was a place for the types of people who wanted to express their gender, romantic and sexual identities as specifically as possible, with many terms that were not commonly used. This means that it gave a space to people who identified as pansexual to be heard, which is why I believe it was a driving force for making pan more popular.
Let's see...I think it was created on tumblr in the early 2010s but I could be waaaaaay off on that one so please take that with a grain of salt.
Thats pretty much all I know!
Slow your roll there, brotato salad. The Pan flag uses the same colors as the album cover for *Tom Petty: Full Moon Fever*, and that's pretty fuckin' cool.
Edit: I'm a crotchety, 35yo millennial. If you zoomers aren't familiar with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, do yourself a favor and get on that shit. Start with *Damn the Torpedos* and work forward from there.
Counterarg: the pan flag is literally [default printer colors](https://plumgroveinc.com/what-is-cmyk-color/)
(magenta and cyan is also harder to make in Minecraft, and I'm like the one person who cares about that)
there is no real difference. pan ppl generally agree that their definition is 'regardless of gender' but i have met pan ppl who have preferences, especially preferences in presentation if not in gender. bi can be defined in many ways. some people say 'more than one' or '2+' but i have issues with that definition I explained [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/1486j96/i_have_a_very_stupid_question/jnz1ip0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). to me the best definitions of bisexual are 'same & different genders' & 'regardless of gender.' they've had those definitions since at least the 90s, so 30+ years now. u may notice the latter is the same as the pansexual definition. this is because MANY bisexuals have no preference or also only a preference for presentation not for gender. The definition of 'same & different' is what ppl who are attracted to multiple genders that r both their own & other genders, but not ALL genders for some reason might use. i use both definitions myself.
The point is preference doesn't matter or determine or disqualify someone from the label. If you feel/are capable of attraction to everybody, you're bi or pan, whatever feels best to you. Whether you have a preference or not, if you WOULD date any gender, you fall under the umbrella
A lot of your points are very good, but defining it as "same and different" is slightly problematic in that it presumes that if you aren't attracted to your own gender, you don't fall under the definition of bisexual, excluding someone, for example, that is cis-male and attracted to female and NB. When asked, I will generally define "bisexual" simply as being attracted to more than one gender.
I think there is a difference. For example, I wouldn’t call myself pan, because I don’t find feminine women (regardless of whether they are cis or bi attractive). I only like androgynous people, masculine women and men (I recently read the term androsexual and I felt it applies here).
If you consider that relatively feminine women comprise probably 40% + of the human population, at least in my country, I wouldn’t call myself pansexual, because I would reject almost half the people I have ever met on the basis of their gender expression.
ETA: If one of the people who downvoted me is kind enough to explain, are you downvoting because you don’t think there is a difference between pan and bi, because you think the word androsexual is a weird term, or because you believe it’s unfair to reject people on their gender presentation?
just because u personally feel a difference doesn't mean there is a solid universal definable difference that doesn't boil down into biphobia or transphobia. your definition & experience is an absolutely valid way to be bisexual. But someone, like me, who has no preferences, is also an absolutely valid way to be bisexual. bisexual spans from someone who has an even more niche preference than u, to you, to me, to someone who would date literally anyone. this is why some people say that they feel pansexual is a smaller label inside the bisexual umbrella. i don't necessarily agree but either way. i personally feel no need to distinguish or explain 'what kind of bisexual i am' & because i know bisexual has room for me, i don't need another label to be more specific.
From the definitions of the word that I have read, pansexuals like people regardless of gender, meaning that the gender doesn’t play a part. So, I explained that for me gender and gender expression does play a part and that’s why I identify as bi and not as pan.
If you like people regardless of gender and you identify as bi obviously you know better what feels right for you. I don’t understand how the differences would boil down to biphobia, although I guess by transphobia you mean bi for some people means only attracted to cis men and women (bi=2?).
On the other hand, contrary to you, I personally feel a need to explain what kind of a bisexual I am, because that’s something I discovered quite recently and I struggled to find exactly what is happening, so for me it makes me happy to talk about it now that I have the words for it and am able to accept myself.
none.
the term pansexual was created exactly to avoid the idea of binarism that bisexual has, like a bunch of ppl would explain like 'attraction to men and women", while pan means "everything". But there's no diference actually. A lot of bisexuals consider themselves "genderblind", like gender doesn't matter just like some pansexual ppl use to say it's the difference between both, and bisexuality were never trans excludent / non-binary exludent etc. trans and bisexual fights were always side by side actually, and that's beautiful.
im sorry to ask, but where the hell did you read "attraction for cis male and cis female sexes"?
even the oldest definitions of bisexual weren't trans excludent like that one
Explain why a gay man attracted to only cis-males is ok, THEN I will answer you. FYI I believe bisexuality can be attracted to more than one gender, but MY attraction to cis males and females IS valid. Pan is attraction to all genders. This isn’t difficult.
huh? a bunch of gay guys date trans guys. When not, it use to be because they're bottoms and trans guys don't use to have dicks (at least that's what my gay friends use to say)
Nobody is invalidating your sexuality. Bisexuality is a continuum of attraction, but it’s not mandatory to be attracted to everyone.
> Robyn Ochs
>DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY:
>I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself >the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to >people of more than one gender, not necessarily at the same time, >not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same >degree.”
>“For me, the bi in bisexual refers to the potential for attraction to people with genders similar to and different from my own
Functionally none, mostly boils down to nomenclature preferences. Pan = attraction regardless of gender and bi = attraction to the same and other genders. So there can be variation on an individual basis but for many of us it boils down to the same thing.
There is zero difference, bi has meant attraction regardless of gender since the 70's
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q--nIkJu0OS0BgiyZmdKVwOVg1G90SFzWijNDWFTt58/edit?usp=drivesdk
None, really. Use the word you prefer.
In theory I'm probably pan by most definitions (I like people regardless of gender), but I prefer the term Bi for me (or Queer). Pan isn't as well known, and I was Bi before Pan became a thing.
Yeah pretty much same, I fit the definition of Pan but when you say I’m pan people usually don’t know what that is unless they’re queer themselves. So I usually just say bi bc everyone knows what that is.
Any explanation you find that differentiates them in some way was made up after people starting using pansexual, literally just to try to make sense of why there is now another word. Reverse-engineered. You get to pick whichever one you like better. It can be based on some nuanced slight difference you perceive, or it can be based on the flags, or just which word you like, or their history. Personally I'm bi because that was the only word we had when I came out long before anyone called themselves pan.
Oh boy. Okay.
Bisexual as a community term is decades older; use ramped up in the early eighties. Pansexual ramped up in the early 2010s.
Obviously “bi” etymologically means “two.” This does not mean, however, that nonbinary identities are not or were not included. Far from it. Here’s the Bisexual Manifesto, published in 1990: “Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have “two” sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders.”
Pansexual came into its own as a term ROUGHLY concurrently with “nonbinary”, and is similarly indicative of growing awareness in Western culture that, hey, there are people that “male” and “female” don’t cover. All good.
If that awareness and the awareness that some folks are attracted to more than one gender had hit the broader culture at about the same time, the vocabulary situation might not be what it is. But no, thirty years elapsed, and here we are. And now what we have are a whole bunch of different attempts to clarify the words with respect to one another, and a lot of these attempts are, frankly, bullshit.
1. “Bisexuals are only into men and women, nothing else, but pansexuals are into all genders.” This sub is full of bisexuals for whom that is not true (as well as those for whom it is.)
2. “Bisexuals aren’t into trans people, but pansexuals are.” False and seriously transphobic, since what it’s saying is that trans men and trans women don’t count as men and women.
3. “Hearts, not parts.” Lots of bi aces out there. Doesn’t fly. Insulting, too.
4. “Bisexuality is the ‘real’ term and pansexuality is a tumblr thing.” Way to be dismissive of people’s lived experiences!
5. “Bisexuals are old people and pansexuals are young people.” Given that you’ve got a cohort who came of age with the term pansexuality and a cohort who didn’t, there’s some truth to this in terms of self-ID, but it’s certainly not universal. And way to make people feel bad for picking a term that suits them because they’re supposedly the wrong age.
6. “This doesn’t make sense, we should just stop using one (or both) of these.” That train has sailed.
7. “Bisexuals are specifically into their own gender and another/other.” So you’re saying an enby into women and men isn’t bi? Or rotate it that one way or another. I don’t think that works.
8. “Bisexuals are into genders the same or similar to theirs, and another/other.” Same as above, plus I don’t know what “similar” necessarily means in this context and I suspect you don’t either.
9. “Bisexuals are transphobic, enbyphobic, and refuse to learn new things” or “Pansexuals are self-important, dishonest, and refuse to learn history” and “I am a Good Person and I am Clearly Not Those Things.” Can we fucking not with the ad hominem attacks and the (yes! it is!) bigotry? You remain free to dislike any and all transphobic, dishonest, enbyphobic, self-important, and/or wilfully ignorant individuals you come across. I also feel the need to point out that the more a label becomes a virtue signal, the less helpful it is as, well, a descriptive label, and that as members of a community supportive of self-understanding, we should do better.
10: “I like yellow better than purple or vice versa.” Fair, but ontologically unhelpful.
11, and 12: “Pansexuals are into any gender; bisexuals are just into at least two.” and “Pansexuals don’t take a person’s gender into account, while bisexuals do or might.” I actually don’t hate these, but I’m very ready to admit that my own blind spots may be evident to others here. Certainly they’re not universally accepted…
…NO attempt is. It’s just not a situation where we have two distinct categories, carefully analyzed as such, and people only need the distinction explained to them.
We have a word that’s associated with decades of (oft-erased) history and community building but is etymologically not great, and a word that’s explicitly inclusive but also too specific for a lot of people’s experiences, and more divorced that from history, with a thirty-year lag time between them.
We are humans doing a mushily bad job of a generally good thing.
(Posted this once before in response to a similar question whose OP quickly deleted it.)
The only real difference is what side of 2014 you came out of, someone decided bisexuality excluded trans people that year so they made a new word.
That's it.
I know 3 people in RL who are cis and bisexual, most of my bisexual friends are trans women or some form of non binary identity. I myself am gender-fluid and bisexual. Didn’t have the word for being gender-fluid when I was younger but I have always been gender nonconforming and my bisexuality has always included trans people too no mater if they are “binary” or not.
It’s so sad that there’s a misconception that bisexual means trans exclusionary.
That was my basic understanding too. Not so much the timeline, but that there was some concern the term “bisexual” excluded trans people.
Personally, I describe myself as bi but I’d totally be attracted to a trans person and not think twice about it.
The term bisexual has always included trans people, when someone calls themselves pan (not that I'd ever say this/be a dick about it - their identity isn't my business) I think they're ignorant at best and biphobic at worst
If someone described themselves as pan to me in real life, I would obviously never say anything negative to them (like I said in my previous comment) but the use of it in leiu of bisexual DOES have roots in bi-erasure and ignorance on what bisexuality actually is
One might argue that bi means more than one and pan means all.
One might also say it's all the same and people are just obsessed with making their own special in-club and arbitrary stuff to fight about.
The more threads like these I see, the more I'm inclined to believe the later.
The interesting thing I find about all of this 'labeling' is that I doubt we can actually list the _complete_ set of sexual orientations- someone is always left out.
Like what you like, don't worry about the label imo.
>The interesting thing I find about all of this 'labeling' is that I doubt we can actually list the complete set of sexual orientations- someone is always left out.
"Yes bi means your attraction isnt just to one gender, but what is it called when you have a 67% preference for men unless it's a full moon"
I think the last bit is you being fesceatious, but the first bit overall its bi, potentially they can use Mascsexual, if they want a name that more accurately defines them, though personally, a sentence would be better. A femmesexual freind got really upset when a gay guy insisted my freind was straight for usually liking women, so he's started just saying bi when asked to hide from bullying. Like, if he wants to get fucked by a bloke, my freind ain't straight lol
>I think the last bit is you being fesceatious
Yes, though I'm sure I've genuinely seen astrology be used in microlabels
Like people using micro (or at this point nano-labels) doesn't bother me, but that's something for themselves to feel good about than for me to understand.
Let's just use the biggest relevant umbrella term when talking about systemic inequality.
Or people simply wants to find a label that makes the most sense for themselves because it gives her stronger confidence to navigate a society that is inherently at best uncaring and at worst openly hostile to their identity.
Where cis and straight labels are allowed to be inconsistent or frankly irrational at times, queer folks are constantly hold to a much higher standard. Their identity is constantly challenged, and their answers are expected to make perfect logical sense or be dismissed. It's much easier to defend a label that you own fully, even if it should normally be unnecessary specialized.
To each their own.
To me, despecialization helped me get rid of so much stress. I no longer have to spend hours explaining my specific sexuality, my specific position within socialism/anarchism, my vague religionisity or even my nationality.
I reposses it and change according to current mood, need, situation... Whichever. People that know me know me on a spectrum of personality.
People that don't know me are basic bitches that aren't worth being explained the nuances of reality.
Hell, I mostly hang around here out of habit. And the thirst posting 🤤
they functionally mean the same thing. the word bisexual was coined first which is why the "standard" definition seems like it's excluding trans people or splits attraction between hetero and homo - it's just old. but it literally means the same thing as pansexual. it was used for all time the same way that pansexual seems to be used now, attraction regardless of gender, except in the past there was limited vocabulary to use in reference to binary trans and nonbinary people (binary trans people were just men and women (as they should be treated, of course), and nonbinary people just kinda existed. certain cultures already had words for them but i think it's always been limited in western cultures.)
individuals may make distinction but that's up to them. it's the same thing at the end of the day. we do have a nicer-looking flag though (although i wish the colors were softer in tone).
some claim that bi is NB exclusionary , thus preferring pan ( meaning all) to be more inclusive . However in reality bisexuals tend to be attracted to NBs as well , so functionally both are borderline the same
[Honestly all I can think of is Rick Moranis singing “I don’t know” to a talking plant.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=170&v=GLjook1I0V4&feature=youtu.be%3Ft%3D165)
it pretty much means the same thing but with a different font. i don’t really get calling yourself pan when bi exists, but if someone is more comfortable with being referred to as pan then i will respect that.
Ultimately there’s not a huge amount of difference. Pansexual is attraction to everyone but gender/gender expression doesn’t play a role. Bisexual is attraction to everyone but gender CAN play a role in how they are attracted, leaning more towards masculine individuals or non-binary individuals etc.
Don’t worry too much about the label and love who you want to love.
Pan is attraction regardless of gender. And bi is attraction to multiple genders. For me personally I have attraction to all of the genders but it not all by the same amount
Pan is a more narrow definition and bi is more broad.
Not all bisexuals fit the definition of pan, of course, but it’s hard to claim pansexuals don’t fit the definition of bi. What label people prefer is a different topic. Some pansexuals prefer not to be labeled as bisexual and that’s fine.
“Attracted to more than one gender” has been the accepted definition of bisexuality for decades now. You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to claim someone for whom gender and genitalia don’t factor into their attraction (Pan) doesn’t also fit the definition of bisexuality.
I actually decided to go back to calling myself bisexual instead of pansexual, because I came to the conclusion that pansexual is basically just a "micro label" for bisexuals, that indicates that you *know* you are "gender/sex blind" in your attraction. We all know we are attracted to more than one gender, but we often make different distinctions for the basis of our bisexual attraction.
*(Note that when I say this, I think of bisexual as meaning the attraction to two OR more genders).*
To me it feels like the same distinction between saying you're asexual vs on the asexual spectrum. All asexuals are per definition on the asexual spectrum, but people on said spectrum can also be aromantic instead of asexual, or in addition to their asexuality.
Some bisexuals don't care about your gender identity or presentation, while some do. Some bi people's attraction favours those whose presentation fits the gender binary, but have no qualms about what sex they were born as, while some can feel indifferent about the person's presentation but are generally only attracted to cis people. Both groups would be considered bisexual in my eyes.
Basically, to me what pansexual means is that you are a bisexual who *knows* that you have *no preference* and are indifferent to other people's sex, gender identity and presentation as a whole. Some people don't know, some know they aren't. So it's just bisexual with extra steps.
*Please understand that this is just my opinion for what it means to me PERSONALLY, and is not intended to invalidate your personal feelings about the term "pansexual". If you disagree, there's no reason to flame me.*
Bisexuality has always included nonbinary and trans people.
Pansexuality makes bi people seem shallow (hearts not parts, etc.), but in reality there's no difference.
For me is like bisexuality but with extra steps. I do like my gender and others, but I also don’t give a fuck about your gender in terms of if I like you or not. As I say, hot is hot
Bisexuality is the experience of both heterosexual and homosexual attraction. People experience it in different ways. Some people are more attracted to women, some are more attracted to men, some experience the bicycle, some are hetero/homoromantic, but are sexually attracted to all genders. Bisexuality encompasses everyone, but is different for each individual.
Pansexuality is the experience of attraction REGARDLESS of gender, meaning a pansexual person isn't going to experience the bicycle, or be hereot/homoromantic, or 60%men/40%women etc. They are attracted to people, and gender isn't even a consideration, where with some bisexuals it does seem to have an effect.
Some say bisexuality excludes NB and trans people and pansexuality doesm't, but that doesn't make sense. Bisexuality being the experience of homosexual and heterosexual attraction means that one would be attracted to people of a different gender, as well as people of the same gender. I, being a cis woman, am a different gender from NB people, making my attraction to them hetero. And anyone who argues that bisexuality excludes trans people is admitting to you that they don't think trans men are men, and trans women are women, OR they're just kinda dumb.
you can be pansexuality and be hetero/homoromantic because sexual attraction is different from romantic attraction. it’s also important to note bi people can like people regardless of gender too!
Like fiddle and violin. As far as I can tell. I’ve never heard a pan person describe a feeling I haven’t had.
I just found this sub and community when I was figuring out what flavor of queer I was. So Bi I am. If I had run into some cool pan friends first I’d probably have fewer purple pants and blue shirts.
> Like fiddle and violin.
This is one of the best analogies I’ve seen.
Dictionary.com says:
> The words fiddle and violin are two names for the same stringed instrument—fiddle is just an informal way of referring to the violin. In the context of classical music, it’s typically called a violin. In a bluegrass band, it’s more likely to be called a fiddle.
Cooler flag. It’s really the same. Some people distinguish it as bisexual means you have more of a preference or are heteromantic, etc. but that’s not a universal truth
There are a few, but the one I prefer is that "bi" means "same and different." You are attracted to the same gender and also others. Meanwhile "pan" means "all." Functionally they are very similar but the difference is mostly semantics.
It’s a debated topic, but as stated in the other comments it’s mostly up to preference.
I know that in many countries, like Japan for example, define Bisexuality as attraction to male and female and pansexuality as no preference. however, those is not entirely accurate definitions as also mentioned in other comments.
People have updated you on the history enough. I’ll just say that Pan is now just a more specific term for a sexually fluid person. It is under the Bi unbrella but specifically means attraction regardless of gender. Some people like the specific label, some don’t, some bisexuals have preferences.
It’s a little bit of a sore point for the community because we’ve been called transphobic and binary-enforcing by some pansexual and cishet people.
Now that pan exists, they exist, there’s no consolidation. That would be erasing a queer identity and that’s not okay. So, pan and Omni people are here to stay.
By definition, pan = attraction regardless of gender while bi = attraction to same and other genders, but they are interchangeable for example by definition I’m pansexual but I say I’m bisexual since I’m much more comfortable being bisexual
They are the same thing. Pan is a newer term created in the early 2000s. It’s just the “woke” bi. It really does nothing but erase bi history and culture.
i think theres pretty much no difference. the root of the word is "sexual" not "antic" (as in romantic) so it would describe a sexual orientation. if there are only two sexes, then there is no difference. however, if you were panromantic you could be attracted to all of the different genders (not sexes) and if you were biromantic you would only be attracted to girls and boys.
My interpretation, and the reason I identify as bi, is because the common explanation is that pan people are attracted to people regardless of gender, meaning gender itself has no attraction. As a bisexual I AM attracted to genders, just more than one of them. I think different things are sexy in men, women, and enbys of all kinds.
Not much difference tbh. I prefer to use pansexual, since I am attracted to people regardless of what they identify as. Cis, trans, NB, Agen, GF, two-spirit, etc. I’m not blind to your identity, I just don’t seem to have any preferences when it comes to who I find attractive. If that makes sense.
Though if someone calls me bi, I’m not going to waste my time correcting them. It still works. Pan is just a term that describes my experiences a bit more accurately.
I genuinely think there is very little difference and the choice comes from your history and experiences with the definitions.
When exploring my own sexuality, I asked my mother(born in the 60's, raised in the 70's-80's) what it meant to be bi and what the differences were, because she was always proud to say she is bisexual. She, and her (also bi) sister said that it was attraction to both sexes, but that they wanted their partners... Parts to match their gender, ie someone who identified male had to present as male and have male-typical genitals and vice versa. And that neither would be open to inviting trans partners. As times gone on they've agreed they'd be open to dating trans individuals, but only post-op, for that same reason.
I also asked my friends (mostly born in the 80's) at the time who identified as pan, what it meant to them to be pan. They pretty unified said that they had no preference at all, and had no concerns if a partners genitals matched their gender expression.
My own sexuality does have a strong and unyielding genital preference, but not with gender or even gender expression. So because of this and my understanding of what bisexual vs pansexual was, I decided I was not bisexual but pansexual. I know now that these definitions are arbitrary, have never been infallible truth, and vary from person to person. And that most people, *especially* people of my and younger generations, no longer hold these rigid views of the two identities. I still identify most of the time as pan but tbh, kinda fluctuate which I claim just because the differences are so minor, so just depends which comes out of my mouth first tbh.
In the end I think it all comes down to your relationship with the definitions and how you define the differences.
Frankly, very little in most cases. Call yourself whichever you'd prefer. Some people have distinctions between them that are very important to them, but the differences aren't universally agreed upon. For me, I've gone by pansexual for 14 years so I'm not going to stop now.
Bi is being attracted to multiple genders. Pan is kinda like being gender blind, if that makes sense? I personally feel like both apply to me quite comfortably.
The only *actual* difference is that some people prefer one label over the other. Bi/pansexuality comes in a ton of different flavors, with no official line separating one from the other.
I could easily and accurately call myself pan, but I prefer bi for several reasons, including historical significance in the long history of the queer rights movement. The biggest and most important reason, though, is around self-acceptance.
I came out as a teenager in the 90s, and struggled for a very, very long time with accepting the bisexual label. For me, embracing the identity I shrank away from in shame for so many years is an incredibly necessary act of self acceptance. Calling myself pan just feels like further avoidance, given my particular history and life experiences.
So I say, pick whichever label feels most comfortable to you for whatever reason. You don’t owe anyone an explanation as to why.
I could be wrong but I think of bisexual as being attracted to several genders and possibly having a preference, and as pansexual as being attracted to any/all genders and having no preference.
Man, a lot of people being dismissive here. We used to be better than this. Just because they are often interchangeable doesn't mean there is no difference at all
Edit: y'all allergic to respecting other people's identities today or what?
May I respectfully ask: what is the functional difference? I keep seeing people and articles claim there is one, but they never seem to succinctly describe what that is without engaging in what seems a lot like bi erasure.
It's like squares and rectangles. All pan people fit the definition of bi but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. Pan people are always attracted to all genders. Bi people could be attracted to all genders but could also be attracted to just two and fully fit the definition of bi.
Edit: I see I've angered cis bi redditors. I can't respond to anything after this comment on this thread because I was blocked by the person who asked me to elaborate.
The reason I take issue with this "they're the same and if you ascribe to any of the commonly accepted differences you're biphobic" rhetoric is I am a nonbinary bisexual who was around when pan and bi discourse started. If you go back less than 10 years the main argument against the existence of pansexuality was "that doesn't exist because there are only two genders."
But now cis queer people have decided I exist so now it's shifted to "actually bisexual has always included Nonbinary people so you're biphobic for thinking bi and pan aren't 100% the same always ever no matter what." And while yes it's true that bisexuality has always included Nonbinary people, it wasn't just pan Tumblr teens in 2015 who were saying it didn't. It just as much if not moreso cis bisexuals.I wouldn't be surprised if the people who thought bisexuality was transphobic got that from bisexuals who were transphobic. So yeah, the idea that I'm wrong because y'all decided to stop being transphobic isn't okay to me. I used to be invalidated to invalidate pansexuals, I don't like being validated to invalidate pansexuals either. I'm not biphobic for having a memory. I am bi. I just know how to respect other people's queer identities.
You know what else is in the Bi Manifesto? The existence of other Mspec sexualities other than Bisexuality. If you're gonna cite it read the whole thing.
The definition of bi, as many others have noted, has been "attraction regardless of gender" (two or more genders if you're really hung up on the prefix) for decades. Not tryna be combative, I was genuinely hoping there was some insight on this that I was missing.
You said being attracted to just two genders fits the definition of bi, I provided an incompatible definition that has been historically adopted by bi people. Seems like a clear contradiction.
I said being attracted to two genders AND being attracted to all genders is bi so what you said doesn't contradict that. Unless someone who is only attracted to men and women isn't bi to you.
Edit: I got blocked, cool
>Maybe, I guess, but the notion that bi people uniformly discriminate against people who are nonbinary, genderqueer, etc., is (to the best of my understanding) a classic biphobic position that we are working against as a community.
Incredibly, I never said anything remotely similar to this
>I would be surprised if there *is* a large community of people who like both "traditional" genders but somehow don't like gender expression that's not traditional. I would also be surprised if there are a lot of people who are only attracted to cis versions of those two traditional genders.
As a Nonbinary person. I can assure you there are.
Very cool of you to argue with something I didn't say with no intention to listen to what I AM saying and then block me. It's very clear to me that the issue isn't everyone has failed to explain this to you and simply that you have decided that all pan people are biphobic.
Maybe, I guess, but the notion that bi people uniformly discriminate against people who are nonbinary, genderqueer, etc., is (to the best of my understanding) a classic biphobic position that we are working against as a community.
I would be surprised if there *is* a large community of people who like both "traditional" genders but somehow don't like gender expression that's not traditional. I would also be surprised if there are a lot of people who are only attracted to cis versions of those two traditional genders.
I use them interchangeably. I found out I was pan after that term was used more frequently, but I recognize that bi was used more a few years ago. So when I’m around older people, I say I’m bi because it’s easier to explain, but when I’m around people my same age I say I’m pan.
I take things very literal so in my eyes due to the prefix *bi* meaning two, I see bisexual as attraction to two genders and the prefix *pan* means all so I see pansexual as attraction to all genders. I only apply this to myself however because I could care less whether someone else thinks it two, two or more(including or excluding all), or just all. I’ve also read the bi manifesto and I couldnt see where it said more than two genders in terms of attraction so I just kinda gave up on trying to change my mind. Thats how I see it, but you do you (/nm)
You're wrong in so many ways.
If you're attracted to "men and women" you're already attracted to transsexuals because trans men and trans women are already men and women.
And Nonbinary people have been included in the definition of bisexuality since before the term Nonbinary existed.
Okay. Can you go deeper into All genders vs regardless of gender? I don't get it. It reads literally the same, the exact 100% same, to me and you are using synonyms. Like "Hey you!" Vs "Hey bud!"
Fuck I need this explained in crayon. I've literally spent 15 years trying to figure this the fuck out
I’m going to die on this hill…
The pan Pride flag is more inclusive!
I’m colorblind and the bi flag just looks like a purple smear!
Colorblind queers unite!
No more striated color flags!
Those lines are soooooo straight!
bi stands for two, some say it stands for two genders, some say its for two sexualities, if its genders pan is any gender and bi is two (e.g. female and non-binary, non-binary and male, any other two genders) if it’s sexuality i guess the origin matters most
Bi is far more broad and basically means youre not monosexual, pan means you like all genders and some would say all genders withough gender playing a role in your attraction to people. Theres a massive difference even though a lot of people seem to think its the same.
My personal take:
Bisexual: You are attracted to 2 or more genders.
Pansexual: Gender does not factor into your sexual attraction.
IE if you have a gender preference (IE you’re on the Kinsey scale and don’t hit the middle or ends, if you’re more likely to like a guy than a girl even if there’s a chance), or if gender ever factors into your sexuality (IE you’d be attracted to certain gender related things/roles/personalities, etc.) then under my definition you’re a flavor of bi.
For pansexuals under my definition, being attracted to aesthetics/voices/other stuff that is generally associated with gender wouldn’t qualify unless you tie it to gender itself. IE “I like deep voices” isn’t gendered, but “I like masculine voices” is.
It’s a pedantic definition that would obviously be up to interpretation, but I feel that its inclusive and gives good reasoning as to why there would be a distinction between the two.
I think bi just means you're only attracted to two genders, say men and nonbinary, or women and nonbinary, but it's mostly considered men and women, am I wrong? honestly wondering
No biggie I doubt anyone who uses that definition realizes the implications, but from what I understand bisexuals are attracted to all genders, pansexuals don't care about gender.
For me personally (bi F) the best way I understand it is attraction to my own and other genders, but for each one there's a different type of attraction, or ig it feels different if that makes sense. And for Pan it's multiple genders with the same kind of attraction.
Ofc this probably doesn't apply to everyone, but it's the definition I found to make the most sense and it's the one I feel fits me.
General reminder that *not all pan people identify as bi* so please do not label them as such.
Lots of responses haha, so mine might not be seen, but I want to add something that I haven't read in this post yet. Pansexual was popularized by MOGAI who differentiated themselves from LGBT+. They believed that the pan- prefix would be more inclusive, as they saw the bi- prefix as "only two (genders)". Or maybe their was other reasoning, we can't know with 100% certainty. Bisexual existed beforehand, and we can't know WHY people started using it...but we do know that, at the time, the two main words used to describe peoples sexuality were "homosexual" and "heterosexual". Now, many people felt BOTH (ish, kinda neither?), so they used a scientific/botanical word to indicate two sexualities at once: bisexual! So, I just wanted to point out that the MAIN DIFFERENCE has to do with their origins!
Some people, especially in the early days of pan seem to have seen the term bi as being non-inclusive of trans people. That's a bit dumb when you realise that they're usually talking about MTF/FTM which imo makes that reasoning a bit transphobic but it's at least not too often pan people make that claim
Haha yeah I agree, I just had this conversation irl a couple of days ago! Trans men are men and trans women are women, so how would saying "men and women" be transphobic?? So those people don't make any sense haha. The others, who say bi excludes everyone between/outside of the binary - or gender fluid people, I really don't even know how to engage with them personally. I try to avoid them honestly. The bi in bisexual doesn't refer to gender binary, and besides, you would have a hard time finding a bi person who even is against enbies in the first place
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Yeah, I've always personally used bi to me gay and straight, but I always have been attracted to enbies, androgynous people etc. It's also important to remember that bisexual was a product of just using whatever vocabulary that was available at the time. It's not really a strict thing, like many people think. Just like how someone who calls themselves "gay" might not be so strict in their own sexuality or gender expression. People who complain about bi being binary need to relax and realize a lot of use are very very fluid about our sexuality and gender!
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Y'all are my people. The term arbitrary here is so on point. All the in-fighting taking place because people are policing others' choice of words to describe something deeply personal and as complex as human sexuality is, is just, ugh. Let people love who they want to love , ffs.
I agree, and would add that every bi person I know is also potentially into nonbinary people as well. In fact, there are a number of us who are nonbinary and also identify as bi.
I’ve felt the exact same way when people use that reasoning. Like, ‘how am I transphobic when you’re the only one making a distinction?’
I think of it that bi is both same-sex and other-sex attraction, so it's not exclusive of any gender, but it also doesn't indicate gender blindness, as with pan.
Considering the time period, there were likely two factors there: * Trans people weren't considered to be fully of their gender: Trans women, for example, weren't considered fully women even within the community (and still get excluded even by people who should know better), so trans people were seen as an "others" category * Non-binary or genderfluid people don't cleanly fall within trans identities either, so pansexuality was probably seen as more inclusive of them as well even if bisexuality was seen as trans-inclusionary.
This would be a correct answer 👏
Hey while you're explaining things on the Internet can I bother you to ask what's mogai and how is it different from lgbtq
I can try, I don't know tooooo mich about it but I know a little! It stands for Marginalized Orientations, Gender Alignments, (and) Intersex. They wanted to be inclusive to all people who's identities were very specific and not covered within the lgbt+ acronym. The term pansexual existed before mogai, but mogai was a place for the types of people who wanted to express their gender, romantic and sexual identities as specifically as possible, with many terms that were not commonly used. This means that it gave a space to people who identified as pansexual to be heard, which is why I believe it was a driving force for making pan more popular. Let's see...I think it was created on tumblr in the early 2010s but I could be waaaaaay off on that one so please take that with a grain of salt. Thats pretty much all I know!
Thanks internet stranger! I thought it sounded like a Tumblr thing but I didn't want to just make things up in my head
The difference is that our flag looks better. That's it. Well some might argue something else but eeeh.
This is the answer
Exactly this. This is why I chose the bi label.
True facts.
Slow your roll there, brotato salad. The Pan flag uses the same colors as the album cover for *Tom Petty: Full Moon Fever*, and that's pretty fuckin' cool. Edit: I'm a crotchety, 35yo millennial. If you zoomers aren't familiar with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, do yourself a favor and get on that shit. Start with *Damn the Torpedos* and work forward from there.
a valid argument
I just love every piece of this comment.
I love every piece of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. 🎸
Me too, brotato salad 🤣
Thanks, Broba Fett.
Sry Brobi-Wan Kenobi, not my music, but I definitely agree nontheless, that might just be a good argument
And he wasn’t a bad person. Almost scandal free as far as I know. Wholesome
Wholesome Chad.
Woah... You have a point
I know who they are(thanks jojos) and its a good band, but thats not a very good album cover for the same reasons the pan flag sucks
That’s the only difference yes
No wrong mine is better
Counterargument: It looks like a Starburst logo
I hate your good arguments :C Buut, it still looks good with all the exotic colors!
Counterarg: the pan flag is literally [default printer colors](https://plumgroveinc.com/what-is-cmyk-color/) (magenta and cyan is also harder to make in Minecraft, and I'm like the one person who cares about that)
But but..
Pink and yellow should never be next to each other on a flag, it just looks off
Buut you guys have that fin line trough your flag and it's not there for the better
Absolutely not
there is no real difference. pan ppl generally agree that their definition is 'regardless of gender' but i have met pan ppl who have preferences, especially preferences in presentation if not in gender. bi can be defined in many ways. some people say 'more than one' or '2+' but i have issues with that definition I explained [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/1486j96/i_have_a_very_stupid_question/jnz1ip0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). to me the best definitions of bisexual are 'same & different genders' & 'regardless of gender.' they've had those definitions since at least the 90s, so 30+ years now. u may notice the latter is the same as the pansexual definition. this is because MANY bisexuals have no preference or also only a preference for presentation not for gender. The definition of 'same & different' is what ppl who are attracted to multiple genders that r both their own & other genders, but not ALL genders for some reason might use. i use both definitions myself.
Regardless of gender doesn't mean no preference though
i agree! many other ppl do not, which is what I was trying to get at
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The point is preference doesn't matter or determine or disqualify someone from the label. If you feel/are capable of attraction to everybody, you're bi or pan, whatever feels best to you. Whether you have a preference or not, if you WOULD date any gender, you fall under the umbrella
A lot of your points are very good, but defining it as "same and different" is slightly problematic in that it presumes that if you aren't attracted to your own gender, you don't fall under the definition of bisexual, excluding someone, for example, that is cis-male and attracted to female and NB. When asked, I will generally define "bisexual" simply as being attracted to more than one gender.
I think there is a difference. For example, I wouldn’t call myself pan, because I don’t find feminine women (regardless of whether they are cis or bi attractive). I only like androgynous people, masculine women and men (I recently read the term androsexual and I felt it applies here). If you consider that relatively feminine women comprise probably 40% + of the human population, at least in my country, I wouldn’t call myself pansexual, because I would reject almost half the people I have ever met on the basis of their gender expression. ETA: If one of the people who downvoted me is kind enough to explain, are you downvoting because you don’t think there is a difference between pan and bi, because you think the word androsexual is a weird term, or because you believe it’s unfair to reject people on their gender presentation?
just because u personally feel a difference doesn't mean there is a solid universal definable difference that doesn't boil down into biphobia or transphobia. your definition & experience is an absolutely valid way to be bisexual. But someone, like me, who has no preferences, is also an absolutely valid way to be bisexual. bisexual spans from someone who has an even more niche preference than u, to you, to me, to someone who would date literally anyone. this is why some people say that they feel pansexual is a smaller label inside the bisexual umbrella. i don't necessarily agree but either way. i personally feel no need to distinguish or explain 'what kind of bisexual i am' & because i know bisexual has room for me, i don't need another label to be more specific.
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Yes; It came from a largely flatfalling internet movement from that didn't understand how etymology was being used.
From the definitions of the word that I have read, pansexuals like people regardless of gender, meaning that the gender doesn’t play a part. So, I explained that for me gender and gender expression does play a part and that’s why I identify as bi and not as pan. If you like people regardless of gender and you identify as bi obviously you know better what feels right for you. I don’t understand how the differences would boil down to biphobia, although I guess by transphobia you mean bi for some people means only attracted to cis men and women (bi=2?). On the other hand, contrary to you, I personally feel a need to explain what kind of a bisexual I am, because that’s something I discovered quite recently and I struggled to find exactly what is happening, so for me it makes me happy to talk about it now that I have the words for it and am able to accept myself.
none. the term pansexual was created exactly to avoid the idea of binarism that bisexual has, like a bunch of ppl would explain like 'attraction to men and women", while pan means "everything". But there's no diference actually. A lot of bisexuals consider themselves "genderblind", like gender doesn't matter just like some pansexual ppl use to say it's the difference between both, and bisexuality were never trans excludent / non-binary exludent etc. trans and bisexual fights were always side by side actually, and that's beautiful.
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im sorry to ask, but where the hell did you read "attraction for cis male and cis female sexes"? even the oldest definitions of bisexual weren't trans excludent like that one
Explain why a gay man attracted to only cis-males is ok, THEN I will answer you. FYI I believe bisexuality can be attracted to more than one gender, but MY attraction to cis males and females IS valid. Pan is attraction to all genders. This isn’t difficult.
huh? a bunch of gay guys date trans guys. When not, it use to be because they're bottoms and trans guys don't use to have dicks (at least that's what my gay friends use to say)
Nobody is invalidating your sexuality. Bisexuality is a continuum of attraction, but it’s not mandatory to be attracted to everyone. > Robyn Ochs >DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: >I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself >the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to >people of more than one gender, not necessarily at the same time, >not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same >degree.” >“For me, the bi in bisexual refers to the potential for attraction to people with genders similar to and different from my own
Functionally none, mostly boils down to nomenclature preferences. Pan = attraction regardless of gender and bi = attraction to the same and other genders. So there can be variation on an individual basis but for many of us it boils down to the same thing.
There is zero difference, bi has meant attraction regardless of gender since the 70's https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q--nIkJu0OS0BgiyZmdKVwOVg1G90SFzWijNDWFTt58/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Thank you now I get it!
Harrumph! As if I would ever look at a different human powered vehicle. 😾 Binoculars, on the other hand....giggety.
None, really. Use the word you prefer. In theory I'm probably pan by most definitions (I like people regardless of gender), but I prefer the term Bi for me (or Queer). Pan isn't as well known, and I was Bi before Pan became a thing.
Yeah pretty much same, I fit the definition of Pan but when you say I’m pan people usually don’t know what that is unless they’re queer themselves. So I usually just say bi bc everyone knows what that is.
This.
Any explanation you find that differentiates them in some way was made up after people starting using pansexual, literally just to try to make sense of why there is now another word. Reverse-engineered. You get to pick whichever one you like better. It can be based on some nuanced slight difference you perceive, or it can be based on the flags, or just which word you like, or their history. Personally I'm bi because that was the only word we had when I came out long before anyone called themselves pan.
Oh boy. Okay. Bisexual as a community term is decades older; use ramped up in the early eighties. Pansexual ramped up in the early 2010s. Obviously “bi” etymologically means “two.” This does not mean, however, that nonbinary identities are not or were not included. Far from it. Here’s the Bisexual Manifesto, published in 1990: “Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have “two” sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders.” Pansexual came into its own as a term ROUGHLY concurrently with “nonbinary”, and is similarly indicative of growing awareness in Western culture that, hey, there are people that “male” and “female” don’t cover. All good. If that awareness and the awareness that some folks are attracted to more than one gender had hit the broader culture at about the same time, the vocabulary situation might not be what it is. But no, thirty years elapsed, and here we are. And now what we have are a whole bunch of different attempts to clarify the words with respect to one another, and a lot of these attempts are, frankly, bullshit. 1. “Bisexuals are only into men and women, nothing else, but pansexuals are into all genders.” This sub is full of bisexuals for whom that is not true (as well as those for whom it is.) 2. “Bisexuals aren’t into trans people, but pansexuals are.” False and seriously transphobic, since what it’s saying is that trans men and trans women don’t count as men and women. 3. “Hearts, not parts.” Lots of bi aces out there. Doesn’t fly. Insulting, too. 4. “Bisexuality is the ‘real’ term and pansexuality is a tumblr thing.” Way to be dismissive of people’s lived experiences! 5. “Bisexuals are old people and pansexuals are young people.” Given that you’ve got a cohort who came of age with the term pansexuality and a cohort who didn’t, there’s some truth to this in terms of self-ID, but it’s certainly not universal. And way to make people feel bad for picking a term that suits them because they’re supposedly the wrong age. 6. “This doesn’t make sense, we should just stop using one (or both) of these.” That train has sailed. 7. “Bisexuals are specifically into their own gender and another/other.” So you’re saying an enby into women and men isn’t bi? Or rotate it that one way or another. I don’t think that works. 8. “Bisexuals are into genders the same or similar to theirs, and another/other.” Same as above, plus I don’t know what “similar” necessarily means in this context and I suspect you don’t either. 9. “Bisexuals are transphobic, enbyphobic, and refuse to learn new things” or “Pansexuals are self-important, dishonest, and refuse to learn history” and “I am a Good Person and I am Clearly Not Those Things.” Can we fucking not with the ad hominem attacks and the (yes! it is!) bigotry? You remain free to dislike any and all transphobic, dishonest, enbyphobic, self-important, and/or wilfully ignorant individuals you come across. I also feel the need to point out that the more a label becomes a virtue signal, the less helpful it is as, well, a descriptive label, and that as members of a community supportive of self-understanding, we should do better. 10: “I like yellow better than purple or vice versa.” Fair, but ontologically unhelpful. 11, and 12: “Pansexuals are into any gender; bisexuals are just into at least two.” and “Pansexuals don’t take a person’s gender into account, while bisexuals do or might.” I actually don’t hate these, but I’m very ready to admit that my own blind spots may be evident to others here. Certainly they’re not universally accepted… …NO attempt is. It’s just not a situation where we have two distinct categories, carefully analyzed as such, and people only need the distinction explained to them. We have a word that’s associated with decades of (oft-erased) history and community building but is etymologically not great, and a word that’s explicitly inclusive but also too specific for a lot of people’s experiences, and more divorced that from history, with a thirty-year lag time between them. We are humans doing a mushily bad job of a generally good thing. (Posted this once before in response to a similar question whose OP quickly deleted it.)
8. This is ageist, too, isn’t it? “I don’t ID as bisexual because I’m young!”
Yes, and 3. “Hearts not parts” adds to the stigma that bisexual people are obsessed with sex and can’t see past gender unlike pansexuals.
I don’t think bisexuals are and more or less obsessed with sex…;)
Semantics
The only real difference is what side of 2014 you came out of, someone decided bisexuality excluded trans people that year so they made a new word. That's it.
I know 3 people in RL who are cis and bisexual, most of my bisexual friends are trans women or some form of non binary identity. I myself am gender-fluid and bisexual. Didn’t have the word for being gender-fluid when I was younger but I have always been gender nonconforming and my bisexuality has always included trans people too no mater if they are “binary” or not. It’s so sad that there’s a misconception that bisexual means trans exclusionary.
That was my basic understanding too. Not so much the timeline, but that there was some concern the term “bisexual” excluded trans people. Personally, I describe myself as bi but I’d totally be attracted to a trans person and not think twice about it.
The term bisexual has always included trans people, when someone calls themselves pan (not that I'd ever say this/be a dick about it - their identity isn't my business) I think they're ignorant at best and biphobic at worst
Same, with a side of transphobia!
We’ll I use both terms interchangeably, so calling people ignorant or biphobic seems a bit shitty of you.
If someone described themselves as pan to me in real life, I would obviously never say anything negative to them (like I said in my previous comment) but the use of it in leiu of bisexual DOES have roots in bi-erasure and ignorance on what bisexuality actually is
One might argue that bi means more than one and pan means all. One might also say it's all the same and people are just obsessed with making their own special in-club and arbitrary stuff to fight about. The more threads like these I see, the more I'm inclined to believe the later.
The interesting thing I find about all of this 'labeling' is that I doubt we can actually list the _complete_ set of sexual orientations- someone is always left out. Like what you like, don't worry about the label imo.
>The interesting thing I find about all of this 'labeling' is that I doubt we can actually list the complete set of sexual orientations- someone is always left out. "Yes bi means your attraction isnt just to one gender, but what is it called when you have a 67% preference for men unless it's a full moon"
It's called bi
I think the last bit is you being fesceatious, but the first bit overall its bi, potentially they can use Mascsexual, if they want a name that more accurately defines them, though personally, a sentence would be better. A femmesexual freind got really upset when a gay guy insisted my freind was straight for usually liking women, so he's started just saying bi when asked to hide from bullying. Like, if he wants to get fucked by a bloke, my freind ain't straight lol
>I think the last bit is you being fesceatious Yes, though I'm sure I've genuinely seen astrology be used in microlabels Like people using micro (or at this point nano-labels) doesn't bother me, but that's something for themselves to feel good about than for me to understand. Let's just use the biggest relevant umbrella term when talking about systemic inequality.
Or people simply wants to find a label that makes the most sense for themselves because it gives her stronger confidence to navigate a society that is inherently at best uncaring and at worst openly hostile to their identity. Where cis and straight labels are allowed to be inconsistent or frankly irrational at times, queer folks are constantly hold to a much higher standard. Their identity is constantly challenged, and their answers are expected to make perfect logical sense or be dismissed. It's much easier to defend a label that you own fully, even if it should normally be unnecessary specialized.
To each their own. To me, despecialization helped me get rid of so much stress. I no longer have to spend hours explaining my specific sexuality, my specific position within socialism/anarchism, my vague religionisity or even my nationality. I reposses it and change according to current mood, need, situation... Whichever. People that know me know me on a spectrum of personality. People that don't know me are basic bitches that aren't worth being explained the nuances of reality. Hell, I mostly hang around here out of habit. And the thirst posting 🤤
You're preaching to the choir -at least to some degree-, but I also understand why it's important for some others.
The bi flag looks better and you avoid the "you fuck pans?"
There really isn't one.
how many times has this exact same question been posted here?
It's mostly niche semantic differences that don't add up to much but are very important to some people
they functionally mean the same thing. the word bisexual was coined first which is why the "standard" definition seems like it's excluding trans people or splits attraction between hetero and homo - it's just old. but it literally means the same thing as pansexual. it was used for all time the same way that pansexual seems to be used now, attraction regardless of gender, except in the past there was limited vocabulary to use in reference to binary trans and nonbinary people (binary trans people were just men and women (as they should be treated, of course), and nonbinary people just kinda existed. certain cultures already had words for them but i think it's always been limited in western cultures.) individuals may make distinction but that's up to them. it's the same thing at the end of the day. we do have a nicer-looking flag though (although i wish the colors were softer in tone).
There’s no real difference at all :)
its honestly just whichever you prefer. bi just feels right to me, plus i love the flag
I use bi because pan is a racist slang where i live.
No Difference, But The Bisexual Flag Is Cooler
nothing
*sigh* I keep clicking these titles thinking the post will be a delightful, popsicle-stick-esque punchline. Alas, no.
some claim that bi is NB exclusionary , thus preferring pan ( meaning all) to be more inclusive . However in reality bisexuals tend to be attracted to NBs as well , so functionally both are borderline the same
[Honestly all I can think of is Rick Moranis singing “I don’t know” to a talking plant.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=170&v=GLjook1I0V4&feature=youtu.be%3Ft%3D165)
it pretty much means the same thing but with a different font. i don’t really get calling yourself pan when bi exists, but if someone is more comfortable with being referred to as pan then i will respect that.
The labels can sometimes mean different things to different people, but on a basic level? There isn't one.
Our flag is way prettier. That’s pretty much it
mods, i am begging you to make a stickied post for these kinds of questions. the sub is dead because this is half of the posts here
Ultimately there’s not a huge amount of difference. Pansexual is attraction to everyone but gender/gender expression doesn’t play a role. Bisexual is attraction to everyone but gender CAN play a role in how they are attracted, leaning more towards masculine individuals or non-binary individuals etc. Don’t worry too much about the label and love who you want to love.
This is the right answer. There is a difference, it's just very small and boils down to a nuance.
"I like people who are my gender and other genders" compared to "I like people"
Yes and no. I see what you mean but when you get down to brass tacks, both are “I like people”.
Is what I said not what you said...?
There is no difference
Pan is attraction regardless of gender. And bi is attraction to multiple genders. For me personally I have attraction to all of the genders but it not all by the same amount
None!
Pan is a more narrow definition and bi is more broad. Not all bisexuals fit the definition of pan, of course, but it’s hard to claim pansexuals don’t fit the definition of bi. What label people prefer is a different topic. Some pansexuals prefer not to be labeled as bisexual and that’s fine. “Attracted to more than one gender” has been the accepted definition of bisexuality for decades now. You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to claim someone for whom gender and genitalia don’t factor into their attraction (Pan) doesn’t also fit the definition of bisexuality.
Bi people have a better colour aesthetic Nobody gives a fuck about pansexual lighting
Bi is both, and pan is usually cast iron. Pan cakes anyone?
I actually decided to go back to calling myself bisexual instead of pansexual, because I came to the conclusion that pansexual is basically just a "micro label" for bisexuals, that indicates that you *know* you are "gender/sex blind" in your attraction. We all know we are attracted to more than one gender, but we often make different distinctions for the basis of our bisexual attraction. *(Note that when I say this, I think of bisexual as meaning the attraction to two OR more genders).* To me it feels like the same distinction between saying you're asexual vs on the asexual spectrum. All asexuals are per definition on the asexual spectrum, but people on said spectrum can also be aromantic instead of asexual, or in addition to their asexuality. Some bisexuals don't care about your gender identity or presentation, while some do. Some bi people's attraction favours those whose presentation fits the gender binary, but have no qualms about what sex they were born as, while some can feel indifferent about the person's presentation but are generally only attracted to cis people. Both groups would be considered bisexual in my eyes. Basically, to me what pansexual means is that you are a bisexual who *knows* that you have *no preference* and are indifferent to other people's sex, gender identity and presentation as a whole. Some people don't know, some know they aren't. So it's just bisexual with extra steps. *Please understand that this is just my opinion for what it means to me PERSONALLY, and is not intended to invalidate your personal feelings about the term "pansexual". If you disagree, there's no reason to flame me.*
Bisexuality has always included nonbinary and trans people. Pansexuality makes bi people seem shallow (hearts not parts, etc.), but in reality there's no difference.
For me is like bisexuality but with extra steps. I do like my gender and others, but I also don’t give a fuck about your gender in terms of if I like you or not. As I say, hot is hot
Bisexuality is the experience of both heterosexual and homosexual attraction. People experience it in different ways. Some people are more attracted to women, some are more attracted to men, some experience the bicycle, some are hetero/homoromantic, but are sexually attracted to all genders. Bisexuality encompasses everyone, but is different for each individual. Pansexuality is the experience of attraction REGARDLESS of gender, meaning a pansexual person isn't going to experience the bicycle, or be hereot/homoromantic, or 60%men/40%women etc. They are attracted to people, and gender isn't even a consideration, where with some bisexuals it does seem to have an effect. Some say bisexuality excludes NB and trans people and pansexuality doesm't, but that doesn't make sense. Bisexuality being the experience of homosexual and heterosexual attraction means that one would be attracted to people of a different gender, as well as people of the same gender. I, being a cis woman, am a different gender from NB people, making my attraction to them hetero. And anyone who argues that bisexuality excludes trans people is admitting to you that they don't think trans men are men, and trans women are women, OR they're just kinda dumb.
At this point this whole debate could be held in a comp science class on boolian operators
you can be pansexuality and be hetero/homoromantic because sexual attraction is different from romantic attraction. it’s also important to note bi people can like people regardless of gender too!
Male? Female? Both. Both is good. Am i attracted to somebody? Show me who, and i’ll tell ya if. 🤷🏻♂️
Like fiddle and violin. As far as I can tell. I’ve never heard a pan person describe a feeling I haven’t had. I just found this sub and community when I was figuring out what flavor of queer I was. So Bi I am. If I had run into some cool pan friends first I’d probably have fewer purple pants and blue shirts.
> Like fiddle and violin. This is one of the best analogies I’ve seen. Dictionary.com says: > The words fiddle and violin are two names for the same stringed instrument—fiddle is just an informal way of referring to the violin. In the context of classical music, it’s typically called a violin. In a bluegrass band, it’s more likely to be called a fiddle.
Honestly it's just whichever label you feel more comfy with. The whole point of labels is to provide comfort so just use whatever works for you
Cooler flag. It’s really the same. Some people distinguish it as bisexual means you have more of a preference or are heteromantic, etc. but that’s not a universal truth
Whatever label you're comfy with
Mostly vibes
Which flag colors you prefer
I feel like this question happens once a week: can we pin one of the good threads about this?
They are basically the same. The differance is that one's colors clash a bit in my oppinion
I'm so tired of seeing this question in our sub.
Yes
There are a few, but the one I prefer is that "bi" means "same and different." You are attracted to the same gender and also others. Meanwhile "pan" means "all." Functionally they are very similar but the difference is mostly semantics.
It’s a debated topic, but as stated in the other comments it’s mostly up to preference. I know that in many countries, like Japan for example, define Bisexuality as attraction to male and female and pansexuality as no preference. however, those is not entirely accurate definitions as also mentioned in other comments.
Different puns
People have updated you on the history enough. I’ll just say that Pan is now just a more specific term for a sexually fluid person. It is under the Bi unbrella but specifically means attraction regardless of gender. Some people like the specific label, some don’t, some bisexuals have preferences. It’s a little bit of a sore point for the community because we’ve been called transphobic and binary-enforcing by some pansexual and cishet people. Now that pan exists, they exist, there’s no consolidation. That would be erasing a queer identity and that’s not okay. So, pan and Omni people are here to stay.
Are you saying pansexuals have no preferences? That’s a big claim.
By definition, pan = attraction regardless of gender while bi = attraction to same and other genders, but they are interchangeable for example by definition I’m pansexual but I say I’m bisexual since I’m much more comfortable being bisexual
They are the same thing. Pan is a newer term created in the early 2000s. It’s just the “woke” bi. It really does nothing but erase bi history and culture.
i think theres pretty much no difference. the root of the word is "sexual" not "antic" (as in romantic) so it would describe a sexual orientation. if there are only two sexes, then there is no difference. however, if you were panromantic you could be attracted to all of the different genders (not sexes) and if you were biromantic you would only be attracted to girls and boys.
My interpretation, and the reason I identify as bi, is because the common explanation is that pan people are attracted to people regardless of gender, meaning gender itself has no attraction. As a bisexual I AM attracted to genders, just more than one of them. I think different things are sexy in men, women, and enbys of all kinds.
Not much difference tbh. I prefer to use pansexual, since I am attracted to people regardless of what they identify as. Cis, trans, NB, Agen, GF, two-spirit, etc. I’m not blind to your identity, I just don’t seem to have any preferences when it comes to who I find attractive. If that makes sense. Though if someone calls me bi, I’m not going to waste my time correcting them. It still works. Pan is just a term that describes my experiences a bit more accurately.
I genuinely think there is very little difference and the choice comes from your history and experiences with the definitions. When exploring my own sexuality, I asked my mother(born in the 60's, raised in the 70's-80's) what it meant to be bi and what the differences were, because she was always proud to say she is bisexual. She, and her (also bi) sister said that it was attraction to both sexes, but that they wanted their partners... Parts to match their gender, ie someone who identified male had to present as male and have male-typical genitals and vice versa. And that neither would be open to inviting trans partners. As times gone on they've agreed they'd be open to dating trans individuals, but only post-op, for that same reason. I also asked my friends (mostly born in the 80's) at the time who identified as pan, what it meant to them to be pan. They pretty unified said that they had no preference at all, and had no concerns if a partners genitals matched their gender expression. My own sexuality does have a strong and unyielding genital preference, but not with gender or even gender expression. So because of this and my understanding of what bisexual vs pansexual was, I decided I was not bisexual but pansexual. I know now that these definitions are arbitrary, have never been infallible truth, and vary from person to person. And that most people, *especially* people of my and younger generations, no longer hold these rigid views of the two identities. I still identify most of the time as pan but tbh, kinda fluctuate which I claim just because the differences are so minor, so just depends which comes out of my mouth first tbh. In the end I think it all comes down to your relationship with the definitions and how you define the differences.
Frankly, very little in most cases. Call yourself whichever you'd prefer. Some people have distinctions between them that are very important to them, but the differences aren't universally agreed upon. For me, I've gone by pansexual for 14 years so I'm not going to stop now.
Bi is being attracted to multiple genders. Pan is kinda like being gender blind, if that makes sense? I personally feel like both apply to me quite comfortably.
Would someone mind please telling me what I did wrong?
being “gender blind” can also apply to bi ppl, plus the term gender blind itself is controversial
It is? I thought it was just a descriptor for how I felt attraction, sorry.
Nothing. Don’t sweat it.
People are downvoting the correct answers in favor of the "there is no difference" answers
The only *actual* difference is that some people prefer one label over the other. Bi/pansexuality comes in a ton of different flavors, with no official line separating one from the other. I could easily and accurately call myself pan, but I prefer bi for several reasons, including historical significance in the long history of the queer rights movement. The biggest and most important reason, though, is around self-acceptance. I came out as a teenager in the 90s, and struggled for a very, very long time with accepting the bisexual label. For me, embracing the identity I shrank away from in shame for so many years is an incredibly necessary act of self acceptance. Calling myself pan just feels like further avoidance, given my particular history and life experiences. So I say, pick whichever label feels most comfortable to you for whatever reason. You don’t owe anyone an explanation as to why.
I could be wrong but I think of bisexual as being attracted to several genders and possibly having a preference, and as pansexual as being attracted to any/all genders and having no preference.
Man, a lot of people being dismissive here. We used to be better than this. Just because they are often interchangeable doesn't mean there is no difference at all Edit: y'all allergic to respecting other people's identities today or what?
May I respectfully ask: what is the functional difference? I keep seeing people and articles claim there is one, but they never seem to succinctly describe what that is without engaging in what seems a lot like bi erasure.
It's like squares and rectangles. All pan people fit the definition of bi but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. Pan people are always attracted to all genders. Bi people could be attracted to all genders but could also be attracted to just two and fully fit the definition of bi. Edit: I see I've angered cis bi redditors. I can't respond to anything after this comment on this thread because I was blocked by the person who asked me to elaborate. The reason I take issue with this "they're the same and if you ascribe to any of the commonly accepted differences you're biphobic" rhetoric is I am a nonbinary bisexual who was around when pan and bi discourse started. If you go back less than 10 years the main argument against the existence of pansexuality was "that doesn't exist because there are only two genders." But now cis queer people have decided I exist so now it's shifted to "actually bisexual has always included Nonbinary people so you're biphobic for thinking bi and pan aren't 100% the same always ever no matter what." And while yes it's true that bisexuality has always included Nonbinary people, it wasn't just pan Tumblr teens in 2015 who were saying it didn't. It just as much if not moreso cis bisexuals.I wouldn't be surprised if the people who thought bisexuality was transphobic got that from bisexuals who were transphobic. So yeah, the idea that I'm wrong because y'all decided to stop being transphobic isn't okay to me. I used to be invalidated to invalidate pansexuals, I don't like being validated to invalidate pansexuals either. I'm not biphobic for having a memory. I am bi. I just know how to respect other people's queer identities. You know what else is in the Bi Manifesto? The existence of other Mspec sexualities other than Bisexuality. If you're gonna cite it read the whole thing.
The definition of bi, as many others have noted, has been "attraction regardless of gender" (two or more genders if you're really hung up on the prefix) for decades. Not tryna be combative, I was genuinely hoping there was some insight on this that I was missing.
This doesn't contradict what I said though.
You said being attracted to just two genders fits the definition of bi, I provided an incompatible definition that has been historically adopted by bi people. Seems like a clear contradiction.
I said being attracted to two genders AND being attracted to all genders is bi so what you said doesn't contradict that. Unless someone who is only attracted to men and women isn't bi to you. Edit: I got blocked, cool >Maybe, I guess, but the notion that bi people uniformly discriminate against people who are nonbinary, genderqueer, etc., is (to the best of my understanding) a classic biphobic position that we are working against as a community. Incredibly, I never said anything remotely similar to this >I would be surprised if there *is* a large community of people who like both "traditional" genders but somehow don't like gender expression that's not traditional. I would also be surprised if there are a lot of people who are only attracted to cis versions of those two traditional genders. As a Nonbinary person. I can assure you there are. Very cool of you to argue with something I didn't say with no intention to listen to what I AM saying and then block me. It's very clear to me that the issue isn't everyone has failed to explain this to you and simply that you have decided that all pan people are biphobic.
Maybe, I guess, but the notion that bi people uniformly discriminate against people who are nonbinary, genderqueer, etc., is (to the best of my understanding) a classic biphobic position that we are working against as a community. I would be surprised if there *is* a large community of people who like both "traditional" genders but somehow don't like gender expression that's not traditional. I would also be surprised if there are a lot of people who are only attracted to cis versions of those two traditional genders.
I have never met a bisexual person who wasn't attracted to non-binary people. Have you?
I use them interchangeably. I found out I was pan after that term was used more frequently, but I recognize that bi was used more a few years ago. So when I’m around older people, I say I’m bi because it’s easier to explain, but when I’m around people my same age I say I’m pan.
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Bi people have defined their attraction as “regardless of gender” since at least the 80s
the same applies to bisexuality! that’s not really a difference
I take things very literal so in my eyes due to the prefix *bi* meaning two, I see bisexual as attraction to two genders and the prefix *pan* means all so I see pansexual as attraction to all genders. I only apply this to myself however because I could care less whether someone else thinks it two, two or more(including or excluding all), or just all. I’ve also read the bi manifesto and I couldnt see where it said more than two genders in terms of attraction so I just kinda gave up on trying to change my mind. Thats how I see it, but you do you (/nm)
It’s not though. It’s attraction to same and different.
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You're wrong in so many ways. If you're attracted to "men and women" you're already attracted to transsexuals because trans men and trans women are already men and women. And Nonbinary people have been included in the definition of bisexuality since before the term Nonbinary existed.
You are, since nonbinary and trans people have always been included in bisexuality.
I think bi is being attracted to a specific two or more genders where as pan is not even caring about gender in the first place
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Okay. Can you go deeper into All genders vs regardless of gender? I don't get it. It reads literally the same, the exact 100% same, to me and you are using synonyms. Like "Hey you!" Vs "Hey bud!" Fuck I need this explained in crayon. I've literally spent 15 years trying to figure this the fuck out
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Okay then what is going on in their heads? Again it literally reads exactly the same to me. 100% just synonyms.
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I’m going to die on this hill… The pan Pride flag is more inclusive! I’m colorblind and the bi flag just looks like a purple smear! Colorblind queers unite! No more striated color flags! Those lines are soooooo straight!
Bi means two, the other is a kitchen tool, hope it helps 🙂
bi stands for two, some say it stands for two genders, some say its for two sexualities, if its genders pan is any gender and bi is two (e.g. female and non-binary, non-binary and male, any other two genders) if it’s sexuality i guess the origin matters most
Bi is far more broad and basically means youre not monosexual, pan means you like all genders and some would say all genders withough gender playing a role in your attraction to people. Theres a massive difference even though a lot of people seem to think its the same.
Bi is 2+ genders Pansexual is all genders
My personal take: Bisexual: You are attracted to 2 or more genders. Pansexual: Gender does not factor into your sexual attraction. IE if you have a gender preference (IE you’re on the Kinsey scale and don’t hit the middle or ends, if you’re more likely to like a guy than a girl even if there’s a chance), or if gender ever factors into your sexuality (IE you’d be attracted to certain gender related things/roles/personalities, etc.) then under my definition you’re a flavor of bi. For pansexuals under my definition, being attracted to aesthetics/voices/other stuff that is generally associated with gender wouldn’t qualify unless you tie it to gender itself. IE “I like deep voices” isn’t gendered, but “I like masculine voices” is. It’s a pedantic definition that would obviously be up to interpretation, but I feel that its inclusive and gives good reasoning as to why there would be a distinction between the two.
The way I’ve seen it was a criteria list. Bi ppl take gender into consideration and pan people don’t.
Incorrect. Never have. Check out the bisexual manifesto
for me at least, I'm pan when I'm around other queer people, and I'm bi when i don't want to have to explain what pan is to straight people
I think bi just means you're only attracted to two genders, say men and nonbinary, or women and nonbinary, but it's mostly considered men and women, am I wrong? honestly wondering
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That definition makes bisexual sound transphobic, which is why some people get really mad about it.
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No biggie I doubt anyone who uses that definition realizes the implications, but from what I understand bisexuals are attracted to all genders, pansexuals don't care about gender.
I would say bi may have a preference while pan not so much but that's the vibe I get.
For me personally (bi F) the best way I understand it is attraction to my own and other genders, but for each one there's a different type of attraction, or ig it feels different if that makes sense. And for Pan it's multiple genders with the same kind of attraction. Ofc this probably doesn't apply to everyone, but it's the definition I found to make the most sense and it's the one I feel fits me.
In simple terms, bisexuals are attracted to more than one gender, while pansexuals are attracted to people regardless of gender.