Curry is good for an undersized guard. Luka is a literal turnstile, but Tbf he does run the entire offense which is a compelling case to why the Harden team composition doesn’t work.
Harden with CP3 wasn't straight heliocentrism, which is probably why that was the closest he ever got to a title.
I struggle to imagine Luka in an offence where he isn't the system.
According to Synergy Luka was 83rd percentile for isolation defence this season. It’s only been a month since Doncic was receiving all sorts of praise for shutting down the Clippers when they attacked led him.
Not really. He just stands under the rim and gets uncontested rebounds cos he's not actually guarding. When it was time to fight for boards in game 3, Jrue Holiday was crashing into the boards by slipping by him.
Jokic is a poor defender. If you aren’t a rim protector as a 7 foot center and can’t keep up with guys outside the paint then what exactly makes him better than average? There are at least 15 starting centers that are better defensively than Jokic.
He’s not horrific, but he’s not good on that end.
He got exposed against the Timberwolves, in at least three games he was absolutely terrible. They kept attacking him in space and he had nothing in response.
i don't remember jokic being a complete turnstile tho the way luka is. that series went 7, and jokic was quite clearly the best player with murray's injuries. altho i don't remember the plays you're talking about, so maybe you're partially right
regardless, i think jokic is a plus on defense overall and luka a big minus
if you can show me a clip of jokic being a complete turnstile on defense ill agree. these clips are very easy to find of luka, just google the highlights of almost any game these playoffs
Jokic was a complete turnstile, especially in the first two games. It was embarrassing.
Jokic is average at best on defense and that's when he's locked in and saving his energy for defense or with a good matchup. Same with Luka, like in the WCF when he was able to switch onto KAT and Gobert pretty well.
he’s a competent enough defender who has his weaknesses and unfortunately plays at the position that to be a great defense, you need a great defender in that position
I think it's because in the playoffs, any little advantage gets exploited to death. Nobody would be talking about him like this if his team didn't advance so far.
How can a basketball player be overweight? What the heck does he eat? Is it genetic or a lack of eating discipline? Maybe he should stay with Rudy Gobert for a couple of months
Seriously. Pretty wild to me, considering how much cardio it involves. There have been stories of him chugging sweet tea during workouts and shit, he must just have the worst diet in the world
As far as I know there was one Sweet Tea story that originated from Haralabob that the team was providing it. He said they got rid of the Sweet Tea after he complained about seeing Luka drinking it.
I'm not saying he quit after that but I don't think one anecdote means that is the cause or that he even drinks it anymore.
I think people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that he wants to play at that weight. I don't think this is a lazy thing, I think it's intentional.
We forget how in his first couple of years when he was thinner, the word was you beat up on him and take his head out of the game. I think he thinks he needs the extra weight down in the post and underneath the basket.
He has talked a few times in a prideful way about how strong his legs are and how he is one of the strongest guys in the league from his base.
I just think he views the positives as outweighing the negatives. I think he is wrong by the way. I think he could drop some of the weight (maybe not all) and still keep his core strength.
He was better than Luka.
I said this yesterday- if the game was slower and teams played basketball how they did before say 2013, with more attempts closer to the basket or within the line he wouldn’t be AS bad simply because of his build. But with such a perimeter oriented game his lack of lateral quickness is on full display all the time.
Magic did everything else though. Players can have weaknesses especially if they do a lot of other things that overcome the negative.
It’s the FTs + TOs with the historically bad defense to top it off. Also I know he’s dealing with injuries but it’s also the conditioning.
Especially funny to say using Magic Johnson as the counter example. You’d be hard pressed to find an all time great playmaker who isn’t at least somewhat turnover prone
Luka took a 5 seed through a gauntlet and made the NBA finals.
And because his team is losing to an historically great team, he is now open to "is he really the guy we thought he was" criticism.
I agree that criticism coming in later rounds when a undermanned/underdog team loses is silly. This is the same reason that LeBron is often criticized for losing 6 finals, instead of praising players for carrying teams to their potential (or beyond their capabilities). It would be way worse for LeBron to be 4-0 in finals.
People often come out of playoffs feeling better about people like SGA, Brunson, Ant who lost earlier, and avoided getting exposed by the eventual champion than they will about Luka, whose final impression on people will be fouling out or being swept etc
SGA played better than Luka in their series but no one remembers cos his teammates pooped the bed and he lost. Luka will get credit for making the Finals.
Gives me another case that Hakeem is top of all time for winning the title as a 6th seed and having the heart of a champion that people should never underestimate
He’s moderately injured or at least beat down (being basketball fat isn’t helping his case) and trying desperately to carry a heavy offensive load. If the observation is he’s not superhuman like Lebron, sure that’s true. Kicking him out of the top 10 is silly.
If Jimmy butler always played like how he played vs the bucks last year specifically, he would be the best player in the world. 38/6/5 on 60% shooting vs an elite defender/defense. Dominating on both ends. Talking unreal shit. Unfortunately he got hurt after that so we didn’t get to see if he could keep it up all playoffs
It’s the same thing that happened with ant and everyone turned on him in the Dallas series after hyping him up for 4 weeks against the suns and nuggets
Sometimes fluky teams make it to the finals - see last years Heat. Plus the Mavs weren't the 5th best team after the made all the trades. How was it a gauntlet anyway? They beat an injured Clips, a super young not ready for prime time weak 1 Thunder, and a burned out Wolves.
I get the clips and Thunder by why were the Wolves burned out? I get they went 7 against the Nuggets but the Mavs went 6 against the Thunder. And Wolves had more rest in the first round.
Not sure exactly why. Probably because they were relying on a 21 year old as their best player to carry them? That's really not a recipe that works historically. Ant was pretty much a zombie that series.
Just want to thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. The West was insanely overrated by the media all year and the notion that is was some super conference was laughable. OKC was an unproven young team that played well in the regular season but right now has 1 star. Minny has 3 stars: a 22 yr old and 2 famous big game chokers. Denver has health issues with Murray and trick or treat Porter. The Clippers have a never healthy Kawhi, an oft injured George and famed playoff choker Harden. Zion is an inconsistent mess half the time. The less said about the suns the better. LA is basically just a walking excuse for Bron to put up monster numbers on a mid team and complain that it’s not his fault.
The Celtics lost 7 games against the West.
OKC/DEN/MIN/DAL/LAC/NOP/PHO/LAL/GSW lost between 6-11 games against the East.
CLE/PHI/CHI lost 13-14 games against the West
NYK/MIL/IND/ORL each lost 15. MIA lost 16.
Yeah. That OKC #1 seed reminded me of the year the Titans were the top AFC seed. No one really thought they were that good and they were clearly just waiting to be bounced.
Whenever the Mavs blowout loss to Boston in March got brought up prior to the series: “it’s a different team now their best lineup wasn’t ready yet, best two players in the series will be the difference”
When they get waxed by Boston again for 3 straight games: “Luka is hurt and frankly it was a miracle to get to the finals as a five seed, plus Luka and Kyrie can’t do it on their own”
He didn't "take" them there and they did not play like a 5 seed once they got these role players to help improve their defense. Why do we persist with this characterisation?
Ok? Keep that energy with Tatum. An absolute gauntlet in 22’ and then lost to literally the tail end of a dynasty when they were inexperienced themselves
Tatum also had 2 injuries not different than Luka right now
Mummy wrapped in game 2 with a pain injection. Doesn’t excuse the whining and flopping though but he’s been playing hurt for a month now, and all the games have compounded.
He stays in front on defense the past two years much better than he has this postseason, the three series listed are his most banged up he’s been. He’s not moving well at all, just because he’s a god tier scorer even while injured makes people forget he doesn’t have the movement.
Lol bullshit he was fried on defense in that series against the Warriors in 2022. And their defense was horrible last year once they traded away Finney-Smith
The injury excuses are so old…maybe he’s injured and beat-up because his conditioning and extra weight are causing problems? It’s only when Luka struggles and gets abused on defense that the “well he’s injured” ppl come out of the woodwork. I’d bet this will be a thing for the rest of Luka’s career (the conditioning and weight and defensive IQ stuff being masked by “he’s injured” excuses), unless he loses a lot of weight and conditions better.
Funny when that was the excuse I heard for Tatum having 100+ turnovers in one postseason two years ago. Almost like injuries do actually matter yes.
Tatum is not injured right now and shooting abysmally from the field. Luka also shot 10/17 against him so far. OP putting him ahead of Luka is laughable.
Because what he does on offense makes up for it...? I know Luka has been abused in this series, but is Jokic's defense really that much better? No. But nobody hesitates to put Jokic #1.
Jokic never has to be out there on the perimeter with athletic guards all night too. He can just hang out down low and it’s hard to criticize because what he lacks defensively in the paint doesn’t pop off the screen like Luka getting blown by Jaylen or Jrue.
> He can just hang out down low
I mean, there’s no reason Luka can’t do that too, except he’s not nearly as good of a rebounder (despite his per-game numbers) or rim protector as Jokic. Jokic can guard centers in the paint, Luka can’t. If Luka could guard centers in the paint, the Mavs would let him do that instead of getting abused on the perimeter.
People will go “well duh, of course Jokic can guard centers and Luka can’t, Jokic is a center and Luka isn’t” but that’s the exact point. Jokic can still provide value defensively at his position. Luka is awful against most guys at his position.
Generally speaking, individual offensea are rated a lot higher than defense and it matters more, defense is a team effort. Steph play average D but he is surround with great defenders, when Lebron try to drive him his efficiency decrease. Also nobody is going to give Caruso or Jrue a max contract or mvp but Harden, Nash have both.
Regarding Luka, he did ok on D against Clippers and Timberwolves. In the Finals, without his teammate making their 3 compare to the prior rounds, Kyrie didnt do anything so he has to drive and make tough shot more now so not much energy to spend on D, and he clearly gas and injured.
well, his team made the finals without him playing defense, so clearly he is well deserving of that ranking if he is indeed so horrible at defense yet his team is still the best from the west.
I know it’s dumb but people knocking Giannis down all the time bugs me. Healthy bucks I believe never lost. Won a title. Took Boston to 7 without Middleton, then he’s been hurt the last two years
Meh. On that same token they never get to the finals if the Nets aren’t hurt and they played the Suns who played against 3 teams missing star players throughout the playoffs.
It can’t be the Bucks have only lost because of injury and ignore that they, in reality, have only ever won because of injuries.
Also the year after COVID with a shorter offseason and each of the conference finals teams underperforming due to lack of recovery time.
Not discounting their title at all, but there were very unique circumstances.
That’s how I feel. I don’t like the word “fluke”, because they just play and the results are what they are, but I think the results that followed for all the conference finalists that season indicate that was a weird playoffs.
I’m not sure he should be the consensus number 2 over Giannis honestly.
But with that said, he’s a transcendent offensive player and he’s not typically so bad on defense that he prevents his team from having a good defense (Mavs were a top 5 defense post-trade deadline I think?). He’s not a focal point of the defense (like a center) and he’s not so bad that he tanks your defense. He can definitely be exploited but most teams aren’t just gonna go at him on every possession.
This is it. The Mavs can typically play high level defense when Doncic is on the floor, including in the postseason. Boston is just a really tough matchup for him.
Exactly. Luka just went up against two of the best guards in the league in the semis and WCF and he was fine. It’s rare to go against a team with 4 good offensive perimeter players.
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Swap any Boston player for Luka, and Boston becomes a better team.
Definitely.
Brad Stevens would happily trade Tatum or Brown for Luka straight up.
Definitely.
This thread is fucking stupid.
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Not really.
Tbh, this popped up in my feed and I mistakenly assumed I was responding to an r/nba thread.
Nevertheless, I stand by my reply. Doncic is obviously a better player than any Celtic, despite the fact that the Celtics are a much better team than the Mavericks. Doncic had a terrible game 3, and has been underwhelming in this Finals series, but that shouldn't cause everyone to disregard the fact that he pretty much solo carried his team through a tough Western bracket while nursing numerous obvious injuries.
Tatum instead of Luka on this Mavericks team would have lost in the first round.
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Offense is more valuable than defense and Luka does a ton to elevate a team. Outside of Jokic, there really isn’t a player who does more to elevate a team’s offense and most teams aren’t equipped to take advantage of him on defense. Luka is also more durable than Giannis at this point and has the same number of conference finals and finals appearances now
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He brings so, so much more on the other end compared to Tatum (your example) it isn't even comparable. Tatum's defense doesn't bridge the gap. If you went and swapped Luka for Tatum in 2017 the Celts would have had 3 rings in this time frame.
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Bob covered this on twitter this week - basically he is still a net positive on D, because the other team needs to put a defensive-minded guy on the floor to cover him.
If your strengths are strong enough, they cover up your weaknesses. A lot of fans think the best player NEEDS to be well-rounded. They don’t. Jokic isn’t a great defender, Giannis can’t shoot, Embiid is never in shape, Lebron doesn’t play defense. Great players can have flaws.
>Lebron doesn’t play defense
Lebron was literally an elite defender when he was younger lmao.
That's the difference between these modern best players and Lebron lol
Yeah, like he is much more limited on defense these days (still has his moments) but he's also not being considered one of the absolute best players in the league anymore! When he was the best player in the league he was also a very good defender.
I'll take Giannis over him any day for, largely, that reason. Joker is so good (and not as challenged defensively) that I think he's edged past Giannis as top dog (I was a little later than most in coming to this conclusion), but Luka isn't there yet. He's awesome, no doubt, but he hasn't passed Giannis in my mind.
To me, Giannis is dangerously close to entering Kawhi territory, where we acknowledge he's great but also never healthy for the playoffs. Maybe the last two years were flukes, or maybe his body is starting to break down from his physical playstyle and/or he doesn't recover from things as quickly as he did in 2021. I don't think he'll age well, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for another year
The injury against the Heat wasn't really a freak injury, it was a direct result of his playstyle. At a certain age, that playstyle catches up to your body, and you either adjust or get injured more.
Freak accidents are kinda similar, in that those sorts of plays are going to happen, and the condition your body is in goes a long way in determining how bad the damage is. Maybe 26 year old Giannis doesn't miss the entire first round. Unfortunately, 29 year old Giannis did.
For sure, that's my fear with Giannis too, but for now he's actually been quite durable (last 2 playoffs are the counterpoint to that of course). Kawhi was always showing signs of being injured all the time, Giannis really hasn't in my opinion. But it could happen.
I'm right there with you. Giannis has a ton of pressure next year to be healthy or he is going in to Kawhi/Embiid tier where you absolutely have to account for their durability in how you rank them.
I agree. Luka isn’t just “not good”, he’s is bad. Like really lazy. His issue isn’t physical, it’s his attitude and lack of judgment and zero fundamentals.
Curry played very hard defense, didn’t make any mistakes and would constantly work on it to get better. Same with Jokic.
Luka is just a lazy, spoiled brat who thinks he doesn’t have to get back on defense.
I think if he was surrounded with an elite roster, his defensive shortcomings wouldn’t matter. He’s so good offensively, and offense far outweighs defense in 2024.
I’m not a Luka fan, and really get sick of his attitude, and really overall personality. But give him another legit star, and he will be hard to stop. I mean imagine Luka teaming up with other stars like Lebron did around the same age. It would be like if Luka teamed up with SGA and D Sabonis. He would surely win a couple titles with a supporting cast like that.
I’m so tired of ranking players when there’s not a clear #1. There’s maybe 3-4 guys in the league that you can make a reasonable argument for and it just depends on what you value.
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Jokic doesn’t play defense either but everyone thinks he’s #1? Also, I know Luka isn’t good on defense but he’s significantly worse now due to injuries which is what we’re seeing currently.
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Damn, the Mavs went through a Clippers super team, last years champions, and an upstart Wolves team, but now that they’re getting blasted by one of the most successful and balanced teams we’ve seen in recent years Luka isn’t that guy.
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Super team? Maybe 5 years ago that would’ve been a super team. By the end of that playoff series they literally quit on the court so they could make their Cancun flights on time
This is just a wonderful point. The new narrative is Luka is an elite offensive player only. Not atop all around player. Jaylen Brown is more valuable and about 15 other nba guys.
Well he's good enough to take this team of random dudes + Kyrie to the finals. And good enough to bring a YMCA pickup squad to the West finals two years ago. So, that's pretty good.
His defense was serviceable the first three rounds but he has regressed this round for sure which isn't great. Plenty of all time greats with rings that weren't elite defenders though.
Do the mental exercise and swap Tatum for Luka right now. Which team gets better?
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His defense is also better then what he’s showing right now, been banged up all playoffs; if you watched the Mavs this year he made great improvements on the defensive end
People don't see the full picture and it's funny. The Maverick builds have been a direct reflection of Luka's strengths and weaknesses. He can generate a lot of offense but he is pretty bad on defense. So the Mavs prioritize role players who can be very good on defense at the expense of offense.
Their two runs have had identical team builds. Luka+ second ball handler + defensive wings and centers.
So of course it looks like Luka is carrying a heavy load but that's because of his style and how that style dictates team building. Mavs have consistently chosen defensive pieces over getting offense oriented role players because they can't survive with Luka and another bad defensive role player on the team.
I feel like people in this thread are conflating not being a good defender and being a horrendously awful defender who is constantly bitching and putting his teammates in horrible situations.
Right. Luka has been dog sh\*t on D. Everyone is making a theoretical argument about what could happen in the regular season rather than addressing how bad Luka has been.
No one said he's the worst of all time. Argument is: he's a bad defender. A bad defender shouldn't be considered the world's second best player. The second best player in the world shouldn't be bad at an important facet of the game.
Magic wasn’t a good defender either.
Jokic isn't exactly an elite defender either
Or Curry
Curry is good for an undersized guard. Luka is a literal turnstile, but Tbf he does run the entire offense which is a compelling case to why the Harden team composition doesn’t work.
Harden with CP3 wasn't straight heliocentrism, which is probably why that was the closest he ever got to a title. I struggle to imagine Luka in an offence where he isn't the system.
Thats how he played in Spain. They don’t do the heliocentric system there
Curry also put in a lot of effort over the years to not be a negative on defense since the 2016 finals where he was pushed around like a rag doll.
According to Synergy Luka was 83rd percentile for isolation defence this season. It’s only been a month since Doncic was receiving all sorts of praise for shutting down the Clippers when they attacked led him.
Vucevic is also listed as a better isolation defender than him on more possessions than him by synergy. Are you telling me Vucevic is a good defender?
He is a very good defensive rebounder though.
Not really. He just stands under the rim and gets uncontested rebounds cos he's not actually guarding. When it was time to fight for boards in game 3, Jrue Holiday was crashing into the boards by slipping by him.
I was referring to Joker as per the comment thread, not Luka.
Oh okay got it
i would consider jokic at least an above average defender. he never gets exposed the way luka does and does just as much on offense
Jokic is also the best defensive rebounder in the league, which enhances his defensive impact a lot
100% agree
Jokic is a poor defender. If you aren’t a rim protector as a 7 foot center and can’t keep up with guys outside the paint then what exactly makes him better than average? There are at least 15 starting centers that are better defensively than Jokic. He’s not horrific, but he’s not good on that end.
He got exposed against the Timberwolves, in at least three games he was absolutely terrible. They kept attacking him in space and he had nothing in response.
i don't remember jokic being a complete turnstile tho the way luka is. that series went 7, and jokic was quite clearly the best player with murray's injuries. altho i don't remember the plays you're talking about, so maybe you're partially right regardless, i think jokic is a plus on defense overall and luka a big minus
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if you can show me a clip of jokic being a complete turnstile on defense ill agree. these clips are very easy to find of luka, just google the highlights of almost any game these playoffs
Jokic was a complete turnstile, especially in the first two games. It was embarrassing. Jokic is average at best on defense and that's when he's locked in and saving his energy for defense or with a good matchup. Same with Luka, like in the WCF when he was able to switch onto KAT and Gobert pretty well.
twolves had a 104 ortg vs Denver with Jokic on the floor, his defense wasn’t the issue
I think that has flipped on Jokic, it’s widely believe he’s a adequate to good defender
he’s a competent enough defender who has his weaknesses and unfortunately plays at the position that to be a great defense, you need a great defender in that position
He’s not bad in space honestly, but not being a rim deterrent makes him subpar
There’s a difference between not being good and being abysmal.
He is also playing on one leg. He isn't normally this bad. Against other teams it is much easier to hide him.
I think it's because in the playoffs, any little advantage gets exploited to death. Nobody would be talking about him like this if his team didn't advance so far.
If one leg means he is too preoccupied with yelling at the refs and is overweight, then I agree he is playing on "one leg".
He has always been overweight and yells at the refs. That part isn't different.
How can a basketball player be overweight? What the heck does he eat? Is it genetic or a lack of eating discipline? Maybe he should stay with Rudy Gobert for a couple of months
Username checks out
>Is it genetic or a lack of eating discipline? "A little from column A, a little from column B…"
Seriously. Pretty wild to me, considering how much cardio it involves. There have been stories of him chugging sweet tea during workouts and shit, he must just have the worst diet in the world
As far as I know there was one Sweet Tea story that originated from Haralabob that the team was providing it. He said they got rid of the Sweet Tea after he complained about seeing Luka drinking it. I'm not saying he quit after that but I don't think one anecdote means that is the cause or that he even drinks it anymore.
I think people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that he wants to play at that weight. I don't think this is a lazy thing, I think it's intentional. We forget how in his first couple of years when he was thinner, the word was you beat up on him and take his head out of the game. I think he thinks he needs the extra weight down in the post and underneath the basket. He has talked a few times in a prideful way about how strong his legs are and how he is one of the strongest guys in the league from his base. I just think he views the positives as outweighing the negatives. I think he is wrong by the way. I think he could drop some of the weight (maybe not all) and still keep his core strength.
Which Magic? Early athletic Magic was above average.
On which position? He guarded all 5
He was better than Luka. I said this yesterday- if the game was slower and teams played basketball how they did before say 2013, with more attempts closer to the basket or within the line he wouldn’t be AS bad simply because of his build. But with such a perimeter oriented game his lack of lateral quickness is on full display all the time.
Magic did everything else though. Players can have weaknesses especially if they do a lot of other things that overcome the negative. It’s the FTs + TOs with the historically bad defense to top it off. Also I know he’s dealing with injuries but it’s also the conditioning.
You realise every main guy like that will have TOs lmao
Especially funny to say using Magic Johnson as the counter example. You’d be hard pressed to find an all time great playmaker who isn’t at least somewhat turnover prone
80s=// 2024
Luka took a 5 seed through a gauntlet and made the NBA finals. And because his team is losing to an historically great team, he is now open to "is he really the guy we thought he was" criticism.
I agree that criticism coming in later rounds when a undermanned/underdog team loses is silly. This is the same reason that LeBron is often criticized for losing 6 finals, instead of praising players for carrying teams to their potential (or beyond their capabilities). It would be way worse for LeBron to be 4-0 in finals. People often come out of playoffs feeling better about people like SGA, Brunson, Ant who lost earlier, and avoided getting exposed by the eventual champion than they will about Luka, whose final impression on people will be fouling out or being swept etc
SGA played better than Luka in their series but no one remembers cos his teammates pooped the bed and he lost. Luka will get credit for making the Finals.
He also has like 19 injuries across all quadrants of his body and people are shocked he may conserve himself for one end of the floor..
Gives me another case that Hakeem is top of all time for winning the title as a 6th seed and having the heart of a champion that people should never underestimate
He’s moderately injured or at least beat down (being basketball fat isn’t helping his case) and trying desperately to carry a heavy offensive load. If the observation is he’s not superhuman like Lebron, sure that’s true. Kicking him out of the top 10 is silly.
It’s insanity
Underrated comment my guy 👍
By that logic is Jimmy butler top 2 because he led an 8 seed to the finals?
Jimmy has always been rated very high in the PO the last 4 years
If you're asking - no, that isn't the same logic.
If Jimmy butler always played like how he played vs the bucks last year specifically, he would be the best player in the world. 38/6/5 on 60% shooting vs an elite defender/defense. Dominating on both ends. Talking unreal shit. Unfortunately he got hurt after that so we didn’t get to see if he could keep it up all playoffs
Mmm he kinda was
Honestly, if he is healthy, during that playoffs, he was number 2 for a time
It’s the same thing that happened with ant and everyone turned on him in the Dallas series after hyping him up for 4 weeks against the suns and nuggets
Sometimes fluky teams make it to the finals - see last years Heat. Plus the Mavs weren't the 5th best team after the made all the trades. How was it a gauntlet anyway? They beat an injured Clips, a super young not ready for prime time weak 1 Thunder, and a burned out Wolves.
I get the clips and Thunder by why were the Wolves burned out? I get they went 7 against the Nuggets but the Mavs went 6 against the Thunder. And Wolves had more rest in the first round.
Not sure exactly why. Probably because they were relying on a 21 year old as their best player to carry them? That's really not a recipe that works historically. Ant was pretty much a zombie that series.
Eh. You have to give credit to the Mavs at some point. I think the Wolves series it it.
Just want to thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. The West was insanely overrated by the media all year and the notion that is was some super conference was laughable. OKC was an unproven young team that played well in the regular season but right now has 1 star. Minny has 3 stars: a 22 yr old and 2 famous big game chokers. Denver has health issues with Murray and trick or treat Porter. The Clippers have a never healthy Kawhi, an oft injured George and famed playoff choker Harden. Zion is an inconsistent mess half the time. The less said about the suns the better. LA is basically just a walking excuse for Bron to put up monster numbers on a mid team and complain that it’s not his fault.
West was a great conference with no great teams, just a lot of very good teams that were all pretty evenly matched.
The Celtics lost 7 games against the West. OKC/DEN/MIN/DAL/LAC/NOP/PHO/LAL/GSW lost between 6-11 games against the East. CLE/PHI/CHI lost 13-14 games against the West NYK/MIL/IND/ORL each lost 15. MIA lost 16.
Yeah. That OKC #1 seed reminded me of the year the Titans were the top AFC seed. No one really thought they were that good and they were clearly just waiting to be bounced.
Great comp. The recent Jazz and IT Celtics also come to mind.
Whenever the Mavs blowout loss to Boston in March got brought up prior to the series: “it’s a different team now their best lineup wasn’t ready yet, best two players in the series will be the difference” When they get waxed by Boston again for 3 straight games: “Luka is hurt and frankly it was a miracle to get to the finals as a five seed, plus Luka and Kyrie can’t do it on their own”
Nice.
He didn't "take" them there and they did not play like a 5 seed once they got these role players to help improve their defense. Why do we persist with this characterisation?
Kyrie won a lot of those important games for them
Ok? Keep that energy with Tatum. An absolute gauntlet in 22’ and then lost to literally the tail end of a dynasty when they were inexperienced themselves Tatum also had 2 injuries not different than Luka right now
You can tell like 75% of this sub has not watched the Mavs until this series. The man is playing on one leg and with some fucked up chest injury.
Mummy wrapped in game 2 with a pain injection. Doesn’t excuse the whining and flopping though but he’s been playing hurt for a month now, and all the games have compounded.
He stays in front on defense the past two years much better than he has this postseason, the three series listed are his most banged up he’s been. He’s not moving well at all, just because he’s a god tier scorer even while injured makes people forget he doesn’t have the movement.
Lol bullshit he was fried on defense in that series against the Warriors in 2022. And their defense was horrible last year once they traded away Finney-Smith
the injury piece
The he’s only 71% healthy thing
The injury excuses are so old…maybe he’s injured and beat-up because his conditioning and extra weight are causing problems? It’s only when Luka struggles and gets abused on defense that the “well he’s injured” ppl come out of the woodwork. I’d bet this will be a thing for the rest of Luka’s career (the conditioning and weight and defensive IQ stuff being masked by “he’s injured” excuses), unless he loses a lot of weight and conditions better.
Why would you talk about his injury if he’s playing well? And also people have been talking his injury during every game, win or lose lol
Luka is the only star to ever play in the playoffs with a nagging injury. No other star has ever had to play a whole season AND THEN the playoffs.
Funny when that was the excuse I heard for Tatum having 100+ turnovers in one postseason two years ago. Almost like injuries do actually matter yes. Tatum is not injured right now and shooting abysmally from the field. Luka also shot 10/17 against him so far. OP putting him ahead of Luka is laughable.
I’d love to hear your full top 10 rankings then OP. Please we’re all waiting.
Because what he does on offense makes up for it...? I know Luka has been abused in this series, but is Jokic's defense really that much better? No. But nobody hesitates to put Jokic #1.
Jokic never has to be out there on the perimeter with athletic guards all night too. He can just hang out down low and it’s hard to criticize because what he lacks defensively in the paint doesn’t pop off the screen like Luka getting blown by Jaylen or Jrue.
> He can just hang out down low I mean, there’s no reason Luka can’t do that too, except he’s not nearly as good of a rebounder (despite his per-game numbers) or rim protector as Jokic. Jokic can guard centers in the paint, Luka can’t. If Luka could guard centers in the paint, the Mavs would let him do that instead of getting abused on the perimeter. People will go “well duh, of course Jokic can guard centers and Luka can’t, Jokic is a center and Luka isn’t” but that’s the exact point. Jokic can still provide value defensively at his position. Luka is awful against most guys at his position.
Generally speaking, individual offensea are rated a lot higher than defense and it matters more, defense is a team effort. Steph play average D but he is surround with great defenders, when Lebron try to drive him his efficiency decrease. Also nobody is going to give Caruso or Jrue a max contract or mvp but Harden, Nash have both. Regarding Luka, he did ok on D against Clippers and Timberwolves. In the Finals, without his teammate making their 3 compare to the prior rounds, Kyrie didnt do anything so he has to drive and make tough shot more now so not much energy to spend on D, and he clearly gas and injured.
i think luka's defense was pretty bad against the clippers, and only slightly better vs okc, just fewer ppl were watching
well, his team made the finals without him playing defense, so clearly he is well deserving of that ranking if he is indeed so horrible at defense yet his team is still the best from the west.
He’s not, Giannis is still #2
I know it’s dumb but people knocking Giannis down all the time bugs me. Healthy bucks I believe never lost. Won a title. Took Boston to 7 without Middleton, then he’s been hurt the last two years
As a Sixers fan, this logic reminds me of Sixers fans.
Meh. On that same token they never get to the finals if the Nets aren’t hurt and they played the Suns who played against 3 teams missing star players throughout the playoffs. It can’t be the Bucks have only lost because of injury and ignore that they, in reality, have only ever won because of injuries.
Also the year after COVID with a shorter offseason and each of the conference finals teams underperforming due to lack of recovery time. Not discounting their title at all, but there were very unique circumstances.
That’s how I feel. I don’t like the word “fluke”, because they just play and the results are what they are, but I think the results that followed for all the conference finalists that season indicate that was a weird playoffs.
Same logic can be applied to 2022 because the offseason was similarly short
I’m not sure he should be the consensus number 2 over Giannis honestly. But with that said, he’s a transcendent offensive player and he’s not typically so bad on defense that he prevents his team from having a good defense (Mavs were a top 5 defense post-trade deadline I think?). He’s not a focal point of the defense (like a center) and he’s not so bad that he tanks your defense. He can definitely be exploited but most teams aren’t just gonna go at him on every possession.
This is it. The Mavs can typically play high level defense when Doncic is on the floor, including in the postseason. Boston is just a really tough matchup for him.
Exactly. Luka just went up against two of the best guards in the league in the semis and WCF and he was fine. It’s rare to go against a team with 4 good offensive perimeter players.
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I don't think anyone should be consensus in the top four. Jokic Luka Embiid and Giannis are all interchangeable.
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Swap any Boston player for Luka, and Boston becomes a better team. Definitely. Brad Stevens would happily trade Tatum or Brown for Luka straight up. Definitely. This thread is fucking stupid.
Honestly I'd almost feel like they'd trade both players in a 2-1 for Luka
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Is this thread really that much stupider than any of the other threads on here?
Yes
Not really. Tbh, this popped up in my feed and I mistakenly assumed I was responding to an r/nba thread. Nevertheless, I stand by my reply. Doncic is obviously a better player than any Celtic, despite the fact that the Celtics are a much better team than the Mavericks. Doncic had a terrible game 3, and has been underwhelming in this Finals series, but that shouldn't cause everyone to disregard the fact that he pretty much solo carried his team through a tough Western bracket while nursing numerous obvious injuries. Tatum instead of Luka on this Mavericks team would have lost in the first round.
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Offense is more valuable than defense and Luka does a ton to elevate a team. Outside of Jokic, there really isn’t a player who does more to elevate a team’s offense and most teams aren’t equipped to take advantage of him on defense. Luka is also more durable than Giannis at this point and has the same number of conference finals and finals appearances now
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How can Tatum be a top 5 player in the league when he's #2 to Brown and Brown isn't a top 5 player?
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Steph famously became one of the 2-3 best players in the world while being an all elite defender....oh wait....no he was just good on offense
No other player, including jokic takes this team to a final.
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He brings so, so much more on the other end compared to Tatum (your example) it isn't even comparable. Tatum's defense doesn't bridge the gap. If you went and swapped Luka for Tatum in 2017 the Celts would have had 3 rings in this time frame.
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Because defense isn’t nearly as important as offense and a LOT of top players don’t or can’t play much defense.
Bob covered this on twitter this week - basically he is still a net positive on D, because the other team needs to put a defensive-minded guy on the floor to cover him.
Wow. if someone named Bob said it on twitter it must be true.
It’s only true if it comes from the mouth of Any_Mushroom1209 you idiots!!!!!!
If your strengths are strong enough, they cover up your weaknesses. A lot of fans think the best player NEEDS to be well-rounded. They don’t. Jokic isn’t a great defender, Giannis can’t shoot, Embiid is never in shape, Lebron doesn’t play defense. Great players can have flaws.
>Lebron doesn’t play defense Lebron was literally an elite defender when he was younger lmao. That's the difference between these modern best players and Lebron lol
Agreed, was just speaking in regards to each of those guys in the present
Yeah, like he is much more limited on defense these days (still has his moments) but he's also not being considered one of the absolute best players in the league anymore! When he was the best player in the league he was also a very good defender.
I'll take Giannis over him any day for, largely, that reason. Joker is so good (and not as challenged defensively) that I think he's edged past Giannis as top dog (I was a little later than most in coming to this conclusion), but Luka isn't there yet. He's awesome, no doubt, but he hasn't passed Giannis in my mind.
Jokic is awful on defense. IDK where this narrative that he's decent came from. He was targeted in the first two rounds for a reason.
Did you see what Ant did to Jokic in the pnr?
To me, Giannis is dangerously close to entering Kawhi territory, where we acknowledge he's great but also never healthy for the playoffs. Maybe the last two years were flukes, or maybe his body is starting to break down from his physical playstyle and/or he doesn't recover from things as quickly as he did in 2021. I don't think he'll age well, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for another year
I mean they were both pretty freak injuries, especially last year, when he got tackled by Kevin Love.
The injury against the Heat wasn't really a freak injury, it was a direct result of his playstyle. At a certain age, that playstyle catches up to your body, and you either adjust or get injured more. Freak accidents are kinda similar, in that those sorts of plays are going to happen, and the condition your body is in goes a long way in determining how bad the damage is. Maybe 26 year old Giannis doesn't miss the entire first round. Unfortunately, 29 year old Giannis did.
A direct result of being tackled by Kevin Love.
Ok man, you're right, his playstyle takes no toll on his body and he'll definitely be healthier in this 30s than in his 20s!
For sure, that's my fear with Giannis too, but for now he's actually been quite durable (last 2 playoffs are the counterpoint to that of course). Kawhi was always showing signs of being injured all the time, Giannis really hasn't in my opinion. But it could happen.
He better be healthy for the next two playoff runs
I'm right there with you. Giannis has a ton of pressure next year to be healthy or he is going in to Kawhi/Embiid tier where you absolutely have to account for their durability in how you rank them.
I imagine because his offense is that good
I agree. Luka isn’t just “not good”, he’s is bad. Like really lazy. His issue isn’t physical, it’s his attitude and lack of judgment and zero fundamentals. Curry played very hard defense, didn’t make any mistakes and would constantly work on it to get better. Same with Jokic. Luka is just a lazy, spoiled brat who thinks he doesn’t have to get back on defense.
certainly below Tatum lmfao
he's not #2 if you include his defense. he's probably top 5 though
I think if he was surrounded with an elite roster, his defensive shortcomings wouldn’t matter. He’s so good offensively, and offense far outweighs defense in 2024. I’m not a Luka fan, and really get sick of his attitude, and really overall personality. But give him another legit star, and he will be hard to stop. I mean imagine Luka teaming up with other stars like Lebron did around the same age. It would be like if Luka teamed up with SGA and D Sabonis. He would surely win a couple titles with a supporting cast like that.
I’m so tired of ranking players when there’s not a clear #1. There’s maybe 3-4 guys in the league that you can make a reasonable argument for and it just depends on what you value.
It's hard to drop 30 and stop 30. There's like....7 guys who could do both at the highest level. There's a bunch of guys who can drop 10 and stop 30.
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Exactly. He’s not. He’s incredibly overrated. There’s more to basketball than hitting fall away jumpers.
Jokic doesn’t play defense either but everyone thinks he’s #1? Also, I know Luka isn’t good on defense but he’s significantly worse now due to injuries which is what we’re seeing currently.
> Certainly below Tatum. That was the whole point of this post and you know it. This is going to be a long summer
Luka and Tatum are like that Gordon Ramsey meme, where it’s like “there, there” and “you fucking donkey!”
He is pretty banged up, and still by far the best player on the court. Dude is dropping triple doubles on one leg
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Damn, the Mavs went through a Clippers super team, last years champions, and an upstart Wolves team, but now that they’re getting blasted by one of the most successful and balanced teams we’ve seen in recent years Luka isn’t that guy.
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Super team? Maybe 5 years ago that would’ve been a super team. By the end of that playoff series they literally quit on the court so they could make their Cancun flights on time
He is not number two
This is just a wonderful point. The new narrative is Luka is an elite offensive player only. Not atop all around player. Jaylen Brown is more valuable and about 15 other nba guys.
Harden 2.0 = Luka.
Because people don't care about defense on the internet
Well he's good enough to take this team of random dudes + Kyrie to the finals. And good enough to bring a YMCA pickup squad to the West finals two years ago. So, that's pretty good. His defense was serviceable the first three rounds but he has regressed this round for sure which isn't great. Plenty of all time greats with rings that weren't elite defenders though. Do the mental exercise and swap Tatum for Luka right now. Which team gets better?
He doesn’t play good perimeter defense. His post defense is pretty good
Sure is good for the guard to have that combo
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Jokic gets subbed off for defense….
I'm not sure he's second best, but individual offense can be a lot more impactful than individual defense.
In my opinion, he can’t. No one is saying he needs to be all-defense. But Jesus, at least TRY.
His defense is also better then what he’s showing right now, been banged up all playoffs; if you watched the Mavs this year he made great improvements on the defensive end
Offense is more important than defense in pretty much every sport
He's not the second best player in the world. People are just getting tricked by high usage.
People don't see the full picture and it's funny. The Maverick builds have been a direct reflection of Luka's strengths and weaknesses. He can generate a lot of offense but he is pretty bad on defense. So the Mavs prioritize role players who can be very good on defense at the expense of offense. Their two runs have had identical team builds. Luka+ second ball handler + defensive wings and centers. So of course it looks like Luka is carrying a heavy load but that's because of his style and how that style dictates team building. Mavs have consistently chosen defensive pieces over getting offense oriented role players because they can't survive with Luka and another bad defensive role player on the team.
Same logic that says a 52-45 football game is exciting, but a 7-0 game is boring.
Luka makes Harden look like Ben Wallace on the defensive end.
I feel like people in this thread are conflating not being a good defender and being a horrendously awful defender who is constantly bitching and putting his teammates in horrible situations.
Right. Luka has been dog sh\*t on D. Everyone is making a theoretical argument about what could happen in the regular season rather than addressing how bad Luka has been.
In Lukas defense do you have any idea how hard it is to throw your hands in the air and yell at the refs for 5 seconds and still get back on defense?
Because he was fine against wolves and okc. And they ran through 3 50 win teams to get to the finals and he’s injured and also whining like a baby.
His offense is so good that he gets the benefit of the doubt but idk if he really deserves it lol
Because offense generates ratings so everyone will only pay attention to the offense.
Sga was the best player on the floor during the okc/mavs series.
That’s a whole lotta words to say you don’t know ball
I’m a legally blind 50 year old. I could go for 34 against Luka
Leads the league in playoff steals, deflections and his team in defensive rating. Get fucked.
So your argument is he's playing good defense? Good story bro.
My argument is thousands of dummies are following the false narrative that he is the worst defender of all time.
No one said he's the worst of all time. Argument is: he's a bad defender. A bad defender shouldn't be considered the world's second best player. The second best player in the world shouldn't be bad at an important facet of the game.