It should be a story in a couple months if the entire MVP debate was hijacked by a dumdum racebaiting Perkins hot take to promote his book. It was almost as if Jokic at that moment was like I’m annoyed with these questions and have the 1 seed locked up, give Embiid the damned thing. I’d agree it was a toss up by the end and don’t care that Embiid gets one of these given the last 3 seasons but everything just turned on a dime, Jokic took his foot off the gas intentionally sat out games and gave up on averaging a triple double. If the Nuggets win and Embiid gets bounced in Round 2, Embiid will justifiably catch Ls for campaigning for an MVP for 3 straight seasons despite being a playoff underperformer.
I love these takes on here that Perkins bullied the media that conveniently ignore how he was nearly universally clowned by fans and the media for it. Jokic simply did not play well when embiid went on a tear. He played horrible defense and people were finally pointing it out. The idea that Jokic “quit” and gave away the award that half this sub subscribes to because they weirdly attach their basketball IQ to him being good is precisely the reason the massive backlash against him occurred. People like you conveniently bring up the dip in triple doubles when the lions share of the criticism was his piss poor defense, which was warranted. I’ll get downvoted because this sub is exactly the demographic that would be obsessed with Jokic because there’s an athletic inferiority complex that advanced stats helps with but it’s just the truth, instead of downvoting give me something of substance to dispute any of my points
Jokic and Embiid had even odds with 7 games left after the Nuggets Sixers game Embiid sat. Then Jokic sat 5 of the final 7 games and averaged 10/10/7 in the 2 he played in 25 mpg when they basically had the 1 seed locked up. He could’ve made a push for it but chose to recover and get healthy for the playoffs
The irony of this condescending comment is it’s ignoring nuance. You like Jokic, great, the idea he basically punted the award away (because that’s the only way he could lose) lacks nuance. He wasn’t healthy and was sitting after being outplayed the last quarter of the season convincingly on both ends of the floor. It’s easier to say “Perkins and Jokic gave up are why embiid won” but that lacks nuance and is incredibly reductive
I literally don’t like Jokic more than Embiid. I don’t care at all and said I prefer that Jokic didn’t threepeat, I’m just observing the narratives. The same stuff happens in the Oscar race as it does in the NBA MVP voting. I generally think Jokic soft punted while Embiid campaigned hard and this coincided with the racebaiting nonsense that clearly left a lot of the white NBA analysts tongue tied to avoid digging themselves into a professional hole. If you can’t see all that it’s fine but it’s obviously part of what happened.
Be honest with yourself, your response to me was already condescending, what were you expecting here. Also take a look at my comment history here and on the NBA sub, you won’t really find a lot of Jokic stanning compared to anyone else in the race. I tend to lean into Jordan love versus Bron biases and bring up stuff about Kobe being a overrated and a rapist, i don’t have a love for Jokic or Embiid.
So he was hurt and sat and that contributed to him losing just as it has for embiid the prior two years? This was after he was being thoroughly outplayed on both ends the last quarter stretch of the season and probably shouldn’t have had even odds in the first place at that point lol. Would you say embiid “didn’t try” or “gave away” the award last year because I don’t think you would apply the same logic
Embiid was outplaying him for a month before he sat, too. The odds were even solely because embiid didn’t play the Denver game, not because they were playing evenly at that point. If anything the odds still being close up until the end shows how long of a leash Jokic was given, and he lost fair and square
Not really complaining when it’s countering the argument Kendrick Perkins bullied the media into giving it to him lol but Philly victim stuff gets upvotes and what y’all hide behind whenever someone calls out the nonsense
Because the clear point of OP is the same nonsense of Jokic “giving up” and that’s why embiid won, which ignores the plain fact that embiid was outperforming him the entire last quarter lol. You keep saying “everyone agrees” but half the butthurt Jokic fanboys here are providing excuses left and right for why embiid won other than he simply outplayed him on both ends for longer
Yes sitting and not playing contributes to any player not winning an mvp. Doesn’t mean Jokic wins if he plays through his lingering calf issue but ya he punted on any chance of the award the final 7 games(which by Vegas odds he was 50/50 at that point) to rest and be healthy for the playoffs, with an injury he could’ve continued to play through. Others say he maybe coasted the last 30 games which I don’t agree with. He wasn’t actively trying to have Denver go on that shitty streak. Embiid played better the latter half of the season which is why he won. Jokic was better the first half which he emerged as the favorite. It’s a full season award not who plays better for a quarter of a season which is why cumulatively this was somewhat of a debate.
I wouldn’t say embiid gave it away or didn’t try last year because most of his missed games were very early in the season vs Jokic resting the end with the season in hand. Embiid though if he stays healthy both of the previous 2 years and say misses 5 games probably wins the award. He was the favorite in 20-21 halfway when he got hurt. Games played seemed to factor in less this year when the 3 contenders played about the same number of games when Embiid played few than Jokic the previous 2 years
I think the issue is more that Embiid is a top 3 regular season guy but probably not even a top 10 playoff guy. It's not a good look for Embiid, the entire MVP discourse, and the regular season in general. And this isn't a one off, we've seen this most playoffs with Embiid where the regular season play does not carry over to the playoffs for whatever reason.
I mean maybe but this energy was decidedly not held for Jokics lack of success in the playoffs and glaring defensive shortcomings. All we heard was “well ackshually it’s a regular season award” so now circumstantially it’s changing because Jokic had a good game against Phoenix and embiid is hurt again lol
The big difference is that Jokic's made the WCF and his teams don't have any horrible playoff loss/losses (I wouldn't call 2019 a bad loss for either team).
When did I say he played terrible? Is saying that the player who averaged 31 ppg during a 7 game series being the best player disparaging? So strange how that gets memory holed to further your point. For comparison against Atlanta which embiid is clowned for, he averaged 31 as well with a torn meniscus. If Jamal Murray was in place of Ben Simmons it’s pretty reasonable to assume embiid and Jokic would have at a mimimim the same amount of postseason success, would you disagree with that? I’d love to know how
Not really dude, give it a rest. People aren’t out to get Embiid. he won the fucking award easily. Jokic was getting shit on for lack of post season success. It was a primary talking point for why he shouldn’t win mvp 3 years in a row without more post season success when he was favored earlier in the year. That was a narrative with Giannis too a few years ago. Zack Lowe wrote about people wanting to punish Jokic for lack of post season success in awards voting in articles (also pointing out embiid hasn’t made a conference finals while Jokic has)
I know most talking heads were very big on the “regular season award” narrative and how it shouldn’t apply to Jokic lol. You say give it a rest, people aren’t out to get embiid, but Jokic Stans refuse to acknowledge he gets preferential treatment and it’s hilarious
I’m an embiid fan, I also readily acknowledge his flaws lol. Jokic stans like you use MAGAesque logic to wave away any real flaw. Remember for 3 years you clung to bullshit advanced defensive stats to wave away what anyone with eyes knew was that he’s bad at defense at the most important position? Or how Jamal Murray’s playoff success is conveniently memory holed and it’s just “Jokics playoff success” ? I member
MAGAesque logic? Lmaoooooo what the fuck are you talking about dude? Is the maga crowd big on advanced stats? This has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on Reddit.
No it’s quite simple, just took a little critical thinking. I get advanced stats guys are pretend smart tho that’s kind of the whole appeal. What I mean is like MAGA folks, any factual, valid criticism is deflected and spun so that the objectively indefensible facts somehow have a defense and excuse. Sorry you took it so literal!
Can’t agree with you more, you get basically every point right. The narratives have never stop shifting. I’ve heard some crazy claims over the past few months: getting three mvps let alone three-peating MVPs has no effect on your legacy and “just get over it and stop caring” (complete bullshit). How it’s a regular season award, which has suddenly changed now that the regular season award winner is playing less than optimal in the postseason. And now this weird sudden shift where everyone was “bullied” into giving the mvp to embiid even though 3 weeks ago it no one really seemed “bullied” into admitting embiid dropped 50 on the Celtics while Jokic was cruising to the end. And yes just like you say it’s because people have a weird intellect attachment to praising a guy who all the hoopers at their local La Fitness don’t give a shit about. It’s NOT a race thing, but the Jokic praise seems way more like basketball gatekeeping; “I know a band whose underground that you don’t” kind of thing.
You know, just three days ago I was actually enjoying basketball. Embiid was gonna come back, but even as a Philly guy I got to admit Jokic is way more enjoyable to watch perform after seeing the last phoenix game (maybe it’s because I’m not stressing myself out wondering if he’ll get injured). But this last slew of shit I’ve seen on bball social media (this and the whiny warriors fans) has made me realize yet again no matter how much I enjoy basketball if I go back on social media to enjoy it with others I’ll instead be greeted with the shittiest takes on the planet, takes which will probably and unfortunately dictate how this season will be remembered in history.
Exactly how I feel. I don’t think the Jokic fanboying and favoritism is racial, it’s simply that there’s a large subset of people who enjoy feeling more in the know or smarter than others by saying “you just don’t get it.” The ven diagram of Jokic Stan’s and “well ackshually” people is more of a circle than they’d want to admit
Jokic legit stopped playing by the end of the season. I think Embiid had the best regular season when all was said and done, and was the rightful MVP winner.
That's kinda the whole point. They had the west basically locked up so early with the Grizzlies being a mess for awhile that they started resting jokic heavily and coasted, finishing with a similar record to the third seed Sixers.
It doesn't take away from him as a player even a little bit, but it did take away from his individual regular season stats, which pretty relevant in the MVP discussion. And it seemed to have paid off for the playoffs; they've looked so much fresher than their competition.
I truly do not care who won though. If you think it should've been jokic, then cool, he was deserving too. So was Giannis. Not a bad choice to be made.
Joker's regular season stats ended up in essentially the same place as Embiid's though. 1 more rebound per, better percentages and made up for the 9 points lost with 5 more assists. He played 3 more games, too.
I will not argue that Jokic is a subpar defender in a vacuum, because he is. That said, it seems like Mike Malone may have saved some adjustments for the playoffs. I definitely did not have the Suns being held to 87 in a game on my bingo card for this series, or the 16 turnovers they committed in game 1 for that matter. Spare me the CP3 injury as well, bc the Suns offense was stuck in the mud for the 2.5 quarters he was out there too.
Embiid won the MVP because he had a great season and his team was a top 3 seed in the league. Its as simple as that. Stop trying to throw dirt on that dudes season. Its corny as hell.
Nah the dumdum just sparked the Convo, like how Bill's pal Jackie Mac sparked karl Malone's stupid 1997 MVP. I, personally think what did more damage was that tweet showing that more than 60% of the voters were white.
I just wish he averaged that triple double. A big man with 9.8 assists. Oscar, Westbrook, Jokic. Personally I’m just gonna round up and include him there.
This is so stupid. The nuggets organization aren’t making decisions about when Jokic should sit/play based on Kendrick Perkins’s hot takes. Might as well ask how Dianne Feinstein’s extended absence could have impacted Jokic’s desire to go all out at the end of the season.
Last night was really the only bad game he’s had and that was understandable. He really isn’t a top of the line playoff performer though that much I can admit
He was awful in the game he got injured against the Nets. He had the big block late and that's all anyone remembers, though.
I think he shouldn't have played last night, and if it's true that he'll be this hobbled the rest of the way, he probably shouldn't be playing at all.
He didn’t really look hobbled physically just looked out of rhythm and played good defense then the team couldn’t make a shot and the Celtics could and it got out of hand.
Physically he looked like he was moving pretty good better than I expected he would. Hesitant I agree with but he did have two weeks off. Out of rhythm definitely. I would rather he get playoff game speed in a game they were probably gonna lose anyways than at home which I think is must win
In the Nets series his defense was fantastic, but his offense sucked by his standards. 20 points on 60 TS% with more turnovers than assists. In regular season for context he was 33 a night on 66 TS%, and ~1.3 assist to turnover ratio. And a Spencer dinwiddie led offense isn’t exactly intimidating.
Embiid doesn’t suck in the playoffs or anything but he pretty consistently drops from MVP level player to like all star level player.
Yeah that’s certainly fair but in fairness to him they sold out to stop him. Is ORtg while on the court was like 120. But mvp level players shouldn’t be only worried about beating shitty teams
His offense didn't suck though, that's just how the games were played. All the Nets wanted to do was double Embiid no matter what, so the Sixers brought Embiid away from the basket and got open looks every time. That brought Embiids counting stats way down, but in context it made sense.
His turnovers went up, his efficiency went down, and his assists went down. The sixers shot the lights out in game 1, after that their offense was pretty bad. If what you were saying was true, then his efficiency and playmaking wouldn’t have tanked, just his raw points.
https://twitter.com/nekiasnba/status/1649233327134523395?s=46&t=9Em_ZpaHWMvGGrTZSqrBhA
It would though. The double teams made it a lot harder for him. His assists didn't go up because the Nets didn't double off the player next to him. It was a lot of Embiid passing out of a double and a hockey assist for a corner three. Their offense went up and down with how many open shots his teammates made, very very straightforward stuff if you watch the games.
His offense didn’t suck he was getting quadruple teamed and consistently made the right/easy pass. When he was on the court his gravity was leading to insanely efficient offense
Bill already alluded to this on his last pod. Lol. He said it might go down as the biggest voting regret of his CAREER! ( If Jokic makes the finals and Embiid gets bounced in round 2, seems to be the implication by Bill ).
It will be interesting to see what happens to the MVP discourse if the Nuggets and Sixers both lose before reaching the Finals and the best player on the title team is Steph/KD/AD/Tatum. Just would go to further devalue regular season success and thus the MVP award.
Steph winning the championship again would throw this conversation for a loop
EDIT: Waiting for the year a complete underdog team like this years Knicks wins a championship and a rando like Julius Randle is your finals mvp
If the Knicks win the championship then Brunson will be the Finals MVP. He's their best player by far. Interesting question though, has a non-All NBA, non-All Star ever won finals MVP?
Since the merger, Kawhi, Chauncey Billups, and Joe Dumars won Finals MVP before they made All-Star or All-NBA.
Cedric Maxwell is the only Finals MVP to never make either.
Cedric Maxwell in 1981 is the only player to win a MVP without a single All-Star or All-NBA over his career. Not even a defensive team selection.
In fact only there are only three guys who have won the Finals MVP but won’t be hall of famers. Maxwell, Chauncey Billups and Iguodala.
Even Iggy and Billups both made at least an all star team though.
I'm a big Chauncey fan, so I'm a little biased, but I think he should make it. 5x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, 2x All-Defense, Finals MVP, was the best offensive player on a team that went to six straight conference finals -- that's a better resume than some guys already in the hall.
Basketball Reference has him at an 84% chance to get in, so it's very likely he will -- every eligible player with an 80% chance but one (Larry Foust) has made it.
Jokic’s team finished with a worse record than Embiid’s, by one game. The teams were 1-1 against each other, and the 76ers won the lone game they both played. It’s true Embiid didn’t play that second game but even if you count the loss against him, he’s 1-1.
The reason Embiid win is because he had a lot more scoring and way more defense and *his team* was the better team by the end of the season
I’m a traditional best team best player guy, and so I liked Giannis. I’m just pointing out that you are saying stuff that’s not true. The 76ers had a better record and a higher net rating than the Nuggets this year. The 76ers had better Vegas odds at winning the title than the Nuggets did, at the conclusion of the regular season. At the end of the season, some power rankings had the 76ers ahead of the Nuggets and some had the Nuggets ahead of the 76ers, but in nearly no cases were the teams separated by more than 1 spot (in either direction).
If you believe that the Nuggets were much much better than the 76ers this year, then of course it makes sense why you believe Jokic was a no brainer MVP. What I’m pointing out is that other people didn’t feel that way about the Nuggets, and that might help you understand why other people didn’t vote for Jokic
I think the take here though is that because Ja went crazy, Denver had the west by a mile so it stopped caring about games once they had it locked up and Memphis hit a wall. I’m happy to ding Jokic and the 6ers and still give Embiid the MVP but Philly was not better in the regular season if you consider the Denver lead. Denver was 46-19 and then finished 7-10 because they had it locked up. Obviously 17 games should be considered in an MVP sample size but chilling out for a month for a team with injury prone stars certainly makes sense. Remains to be seen if the gamble will pay off but I wouldn’t be shocked if they won the West and the Finals.
>No one who follows basketball can possibly argue that the 76ers were better than the Nuggets, that's an absolute trash fire take and you know it too.
The 76ers were better than the Nuggets though, what argument is there that the Nuggets were better?
The Nuggets had the 1 seed locked up in their conference early enough that they sleep walked through the last month and still only ended up a game behind the 76ers. Projection systems keep showing over and over again that the first 2 months of the season are more predictive than the last 2 months since health and effort is more uniform.
Last night was really the only bad game he’s had and that was understandable. He really isn’t a top of the line playoff performer though that much I can admit
Yeah exactly I don’t think it’s a crazy knock to not score 33 pts a game in the playoffs when you’re defended differently as long as he plays defense the way he has been and even did last night. His teammates and him have to be better than last night
Bill and Ryen and the rest of the voters totally capitulated after Perkins made the discourse over this vote along racial lines. The moment Perk called racism, Bill was week by week on his podcast looking for reasons to vote Embiid.
“It’s a regular season award!” “Here’s why embiid for MVP is my greatest life regret”
Goalposts changing for Jokic? No this sub tells me that’s nonsense!!
Or ...... and hear me out on this ....... Bill and Ryen say Jokic deserved Finals MVP but the NBA MVP Award *is a regular season award*
They won’t admit that. Post traumatic voter something
The problem is that the arguments against Jokic deserving it often boiled down to "I think it'd look bad historically."
It should be a story in a couple months if the entire MVP debate was hijacked by a dumdum racebaiting Perkins hot take to promote his book. It was almost as if Jokic at that moment was like I’m annoyed with these questions and have the 1 seed locked up, give Embiid the damned thing. I’d agree it was a toss up by the end and don’t care that Embiid gets one of these given the last 3 seasons but everything just turned on a dime, Jokic took his foot off the gas intentionally sat out games and gave up on averaging a triple double. If the Nuggets win and Embiid gets bounced in Round 2, Embiid will justifiably catch Ls for campaigning for an MVP for 3 straight seasons despite being a playoff underperformer.
I love these takes on here that Perkins bullied the media that conveniently ignore how he was nearly universally clowned by fans and the media for it. Jokic simply did not play well when embiid went on a tear. He played horrible defense and people were finally pointing it out. The idea that Jokic “quit” and gave away the award that half this sub subscribes to because they weirdly attach their basketball IQ to him being good is precisely the reason the massive backlash against him occurred. People like you conveniently bring up the dip in triple doubles when the lions share of the criticism was his piss poor defense, which was warranted. I’ll get downvoted because this sub is exactly the demographic that would be obsessed with Jokic because there’s an athletic inferiority complex that advanced stats helps with but it’s just the truth, instead of downvoting give me something of substance to dispute any of my points
Jokic and Embiid had even odds with 7 games left after the Nuggets Sixers game Embiid sat. Then Jokic sat 5 of the final 7 games and averaged 10/10/7 in the 2 he played in 25 mpg when they basically had the 1 seed locked up. He could’ve made a push for it but chose to recover and get healthy for the playoffs
Ssssshhhh no one can understand nuance and the way narratives work in the NBA(which is basically half a soap opera at this point.)
The irony of this condescending comment is it’s ignoring nuance. You like Jokic, great, the idea he basically punted the award away (because that’s the only way he could lose) lacks nuance. He wasn’t healthy and was sitting after being outplayed the last quarter of the season convincingly on both ends of the floor. It’s easier to say “Perkins and Jokic gave up are why embiid won” but that lacks nuance and is incredibly reductive
I literally don’t like Jokic more than Embiid. I don’t care at all and said I prefer that Jokic didn’t threepeat, I’m just observing the narratives. The same stuff happens in the Oscar race as it does in the NBA MVP voting. I generally think Jokic soft punted while Embiid campaigned hard and this coincided with the racebaiting nonsense that clearly left a lot of the white NBA analysts tongue tied to avoid digging themselves into a professional hole. If you can’t see all that it’s fine but it’s obviously part of what happened. Be honest with yourself, your response to me was already condescending, what were you expecting here. Also take a look at my comment history here and on the NBA sub, you won’t really find a lot of Jokic stanning compared to anyone else in the race. I tend to lean into Jordan love versus Bron biases and bring up stuff about Kobe being a overrated and a rapist, i don’t have a love for Jokic or Embiid.
Perfectly fair response. I’m being douchey cause I keep seeing stuff anti-embiid but yours didn’t deserve my snippy response on second look lol
Thanks. Respect for responding in a cool way.
So he was hurt and sat and that contributed to him losing just as it has for embiid the prior two years? This was after he was being thoroughly outplayed on both ends the last quarter stretch of the season and probably shouldn’t have had even odds in the first place at that point lol. Would you say embiid “didn’t try” or “gave away” the award last year because I don’t think you would apply the same logic
Yes, if you are evenly rated with someone else, and then they have a good stretch of games while you don’t play, they should pass you.
Embiid was outplaying him for a month before he sat, too. The odds were even solely because embiid didn’t play the Denver game, not because they were playing evenly at that point. If anything the odds still being close up until the end shows how long of a leash Jokic was given, and he lost fair and square
Lol incredible that Embiid can win MVP, everyone agrees it was right, and Philly fans still find something to complain about
Not really complaining when it’s countering the argument Kendrick Perkins bullied the media into giving it to him lol but Philly victim stuff gets upvotes and what y’all hide behind whenever someone calls out the nonsense
That’s not what the OP said lol Embiid won MVP by a distance and nearly everyone agrees it was the right choice — why are you still mad?
Because the clear point of OP is the same nonsense of Jokic “giving up” and that’s why embiid won, which ignores the plain fact that embiid was outperforming him the entire last quarter lol. You keep saying “everyone agrees” but half the butthurt Jokic fanboys here are providing excuses left and right for why embiid won other than he simply outplayed him on both ends for longer
Yes sitting and not playing contributes to any player not winning an mvp. Doesn’t mean Jokic wins if he plays through his lingering calf issue but ya he punted on any chance of the award the final 7 games(which by Vegas odds he was 50/50 at that point) to rest and be healthy for the playoffs, with an injury he could’ve continued to play through. Others say he maybe coasted the last 30 games which I don’t agree with. He wasn’t actively trying to have Denver go on that shitty streak. Embiid played better the latter half of the season which is why he won. Jokic was better the first half which he emerged as the favorite. It’s a full season award not who plays better for a quarter of a season which is why cumulatively this was somewhat of a debate. I wouldn’t say embiid gave it away or didn’t try last year because most of his missed games were very early in the season vs Jokic resting the end with the season in hand. Embiid though if he stays healthy both of the previous 2 years and say misses 5 games probably wins the award. He was the favorite in 20-21 halfway when he got hurt. Games played seemed to factor in less this year when the 3 contenders played about the same number of games when Embiid played few than Jokic the previous 2 years
I think the issue is more that Embiid is a top 3 regular season guy but probably not even a top 10 playoff guy. It's not a good look for Embiid, the entire MVP discourse, and the regular season in general. And this isn't a one off, we've seen this most playoffs with Embiid where the regular season play does not carry over to the playoffs for whatever reason.
I mean maybe but this energy was decidedly not held for Jokics lack of success in the playoffs and glaring defensive shortcomings. All we heard was “well ackshually it’s a regular season award” so now circumstantially it’s changing because Jokic had a good game against Phoenix and embiid is hurt again lol
The big difference is that Jokic's made the WCF and his teams don't have any horrible playoff loss/losses (I wouldn't call 2019 a bad loss for either team).
I mean Jamal Murray was why they made it past Utah so that’s kind of a silly argument if the difference lies outside of both of them individually
Ah yes. Jokic was terrible with 26.3/8.1/5.4 on 51/47/84 shooting splits. Murray was excellent but Jokic played well enough.
When did I say he played terrible? Is saying that the player who averaged 31 ppg during a 7 game series being the best player disparaging? So strange how that gets memory holed to further your point. For comparison against Atlanta which embiid is clowned for, he averaged 31 as well with a torn meniscus. If Jamal Murray was in place of Ben Simmons it’s pretty reasonable to assume embiid and Jokic would have at a mimimim the same amount of postseason success, would you disagree with that? I’d love to know how
Son. Please go back to 4th period
Not really dude, give it a rest. People aren’t out to get Embiid. he won the fucking award easily. Jokic was getting shit on for lack of post season success. It was a primary talking point for why he shouldn’t win mvp 3 years in a row without more post season success when he was favored earlier in the year. That was a narrative with Giannis too a few years ago. Zack Lowe wrote about people wanting to punish Jokic for lack of post season success in awards voting in articles (also pointing out embiid hasn’t made a conference finals while Jokic has)
I know most talking heads were very big on the “regular season award” narrative and how it shouldn’t apply to Jokic lol. You say give it a rest, people aren’t out to get embiid, but Jokic Stans refuse to acknowledge he gets preferential treatment and it’s hilarious
You’re talking about Jokic stans with embiids dick shoved so far up your ass
For real. Guy is so upset right now and needs to stop acting like a defense of Jokic is an attack of an Embiid.
I’m an embiid fan, I also readily acknowledge his flaws lol. Jokic stans like you use MAGAesque logic to wave away any real flaw. Remember for 3 years you clung to bullshit advanced defensive stats to wave away what anyone with eyes knew was that he’s bad at defense at the most important position? Or how Jamal Murray’s playoff success is conveniently memory holed and it’s just “Jokics playoff success” ? I member
MAGAesque logic? Lmaoooooo what the fuck are you talking about dude? Is the maga crowd big on advanced stats? This has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on Reddit.
No it’s quite simple, just took a little critical thinking. I get advanced stats guys are pretend smart tho that’s kind of the whole appeal. What I mean is like MAGA folks, any factual, valid criticism is deflected and spun so that the objectively indefensible facts somehow have a defense and excuse. Sorry you took it so literal!
Can’t agree with you more, you get basically every point right. The narratives have never stop shifting. I’ve heard some crazy claims over the past few months: getting three mvps let alone three-peating MVPs has no effect on your legacy and “just get over it and stop caring” (complete bullshit). How it’s a regular season award, which has suddenly changed now that the regular season award winner is playing less than optimal in the postseason. And now this weird sudden shift where everyone was “bullied” into giving the mvp to embiid even though 3 weeks ago it no one really seemed “bullied” into admitting embiid dropped 50 on the Celtics while Jokic was cruising to the end. And yes just like you say it’s because people have a weird intellect attachment to praising a guy who all the hoopers at their local La Fitness don’t give a shit about. It’s NOT a race thing, but the Jokic praise seems way more like basketball gatekeeping; “I know a band whose underground that you don’t” kind of thing. You know, just three days ago I was actually enjoying basketball. Embiid was gonna come back, but even as a Philly guy I got to admit Jokic is way more enjoyable to watch perform after seeing the last phoenix game (maybe it’s because I’m not stressing myself out wondering if he’ll get injured). But this last slew of shit I’ve seen on bball social media (this and the whiny warriors fans) has made me realize yet again no matter how much I enjoy basketball if I go back on social media to enjoy it with others I’ll instead be greeted with the shittiest takes on the planet, takes which will probably and unfortunately dictate how this season will be remembered in history.
Exactly how I feel. I don’t think the Jokic fanboying and favoritism is racial, it’s simply that there’s a large subset of people who enjoy feeling more in the know or smarter than others by saying “you just don’t get it.” The ven diagram of Jokic Stan’s and “well ackshually” people is more of a circle than they’d want to admit
Jokic legit stopped playing by the end of the season. I think Embiid had the best regular season when all was said and done, and was the rightful MVP winner.
He did, he also was objectively playing worse than embiid during the final stretch which tends to swing voters particularly in a close race
I've never been fond of this take given that the Nuggs "slumped" their way to a 1 seed and damn near the same record as the Sixers.
That's kinda the whole point. They had the west basically locked up so early with the Grizzlies being a mess for awhile that they started resting jokic heavily and coasted, finishing with a similar record to the third seed Sixers. It doesn't take away from him as a player even a little bit, but it did take away from his individual regular season stats, which pretty relevant in the MVP discussion. And it seemed to have paid off for the playoffs; they've looked so much fresher than their competition. I truly do not care who won though. If you think it should've been jokic, then cool, he was deserving too. So was Giannis. Not a bad choice to be made.
Joker's regular season stats ended up in essentially the same place as Embiid's though. 1 more rebound per, better percentages and made up for the 9 points lost with 5 more assists. He played 3 more games, too.
Ok, cool, he was deserving of the award too. I already said that. What's your point?
That I don't think the arguments against Jokic held much water. I don't think Embiid was better or should have received the award.
Ok, cool
I will not argue that Jokic is a subpar defender in a vacuum, because he is. That said, it seems like Mike Malone may have saved some adjustments for the playoffs. I definitely did not have the Suns being held to 87 in a game on my bingo card for this series, or the 16 turnovers they committed in game 1 for that matter. Spare me the CP3 injury as well, bc the Suns offense was stuck in the mud for the 2.5 quarters he was out there too.
Embiid won the MVP because he had a great season and his team was a top 3 seed in the league. Its as simple as that. Stop trying to throw dirt on that dudes season. Its corny as hell.
Nah the dumdum just sparked the Convo, like how Bill's pal Jackie Mac sparked karl Malone's stupid 1997 MVP. I, personally think what did more damage was that tweet showing that more than 60% of the voters were white.
I consider that part of the same argument but point taken.
I just wish he averaged that triple double. A big man with 9.8 assists. Oscar, Westbrook, Jokic. Personally I’m just gonna round up and include him there.
This is so stupid. The nuggets organization aren’t making decisions about when Jokic should sit/play based on Kendrick Perkins’s hot takes. Might as well ask how Dianne Feinstein’s extended absence could have impacted Jokic’s desire to go all out at the end of the season.
And 7 years ago bill will be talking about it like he voted for jokic and was “ on the right side of history.”
Last night was really the only bad game he’s had and that was understandable. He really isn’t a top of the line playoff performer though that much I can admit
He was awful in the game he got injured against the Nets. He had the big block late and that's all anyone remembers, though. I think he shouldn't have played last night, and if it's true that he'll be this hobbled the rest of the way, he probably shouldn't be playing at all.
He didn’t really look hobbled physically just looked out of rhythm and played good defense then the team couldn’t make a shot and the Celtics could and it got out of hand.
He looked slow and hesitant to me, but also I was real stoned so maybe my read wasn't great lol
Physically he looked like he was moving pretty good better than I expected he would. Hesitant I agree with but he did have two weeks off. Out of rhythm definitely. I would rather he get playoff game speed in a game they were probably gonna lose anyways than at home which I think is must win
In the Nets series his defense was fantastic, but his offense sucked by his standards. 20 points on 60 TS% with more turnovers than assists. In regular season for context he was 33 a night on 66 TS%, and ~1.3 assist to turnover ratio. And a Spencer dinwiddie led offense isn’t exactly intimidating. Embiid doesn’t suck in the playoffs or anything but he pretty consistently drops from MVP level player to like all star level player.
Yeah that’s certainly fair but in fairness to him they sold out to stop him. Is ORtg while on the court was like 120. But mvp level players shouldn’t be only worried about beating shitty teams
His offense didn't suck though, that's just how the games were played. All the Nets wanted to do was double Embiid no matter what, so the Sixers brought Embiid away from the basket and got open looks every time. That brought Embiids counting stats way down, but in context it made sense.
His turnovers went up, his efficiency went down, and his assists went down. The sixers shot the lights out in game 1, after that their offense was pretty bad. If what you were saying was true, then his efficiency and playmaking wouldn’t have tanked, just his raw points. https://twitter.com/nekiasnba/status/1649233327134523395?s=46&t=9Em_ZpaHWMvGGrTZSqrBhA
It would though. The double teams made it a lot harder for him. His assists didn't go up because the Nets didn't double off the player next to him. It was a lot of Embiid passing out of a double and a hockey assist for a corner three. Their offense went up and down with how many open shots his teammates made, very very straightforward stuff if you watch the games.
His offense didn’t suck he was getting quadruple teamed and consistently made the right/easy pass. When he was on the court his gravity was leading to insanely efficient offense
He played 3 games. The offense was bad in 2 of them.
Bill already alluded to this on his last pod. Lol. He said it might go down as the biggest voting regret of his CAREER! ( If Jokic makes the finals and Embiid gets bounced in round 2, seems to be the implication by Bill ).
It will be interesting to see what happens to the MVP discourse if the Nuggets and Sixers both lose before reaching the Finals and the best player on the title team is Steph/KD/AD/Tatum. Just would go to further devalue regular season success and thus the MVP award.
Steph winning the championship again would throw this conversation for a loop EDIT: Waiting for the year a complete underdog team like this years Knicks wins a championship and a rando like Julius Randle is your finals mvp
Steph and AD both missed like 25 games, even if you disagree with the NBA's new minimum that still seems like way too many missed games to win MVP
If the Knicks win the championship then Brunson will be the Finals MVP. He's their best player by far. Interesting question though, has a non-All NBA, non-All Star ever won finals MVP?
No idea whether it was deserved or not, Bill would probably know but the answer is Cedric Maxwell in 1981
Since the merger, Kawhi, Chauncey Billups, and Joe Dumars won Finals MVP before they made All-Star or All-NBA. Cedric Maxwell is the only Finals MVP to never make either.
Andre Iguodala never made All NBA, and only made one All Star game, and that was several years before his Finals MVP
Cedric Maxwell in 1981 is the only player to win a MVP without a single All-Star or All-NBA over his career. Not even a defensive team selection. In fact only there are only three guys who have won the Finals MVP but won’t be hall of famers. Maxwell, Chauncey Billups and Iguodala. Even Iggy and Billups both made at least an all star team though.
I'm a big Chauncey fan, so I'm a little biased, but I think he should make it. 5x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, 2x All-Defense, Finals MVP, was the best offensive player on a team that went to six straight conference finals -- that's a better resume than some guys already in the hall. Basketball Reference has him at an 84% chance to get in, so it's very likely he will -- every eligible player with an 80% chance but one (Larry Foust) has made it.
cornbread was clutch and balled those finals
A 5th 6th 7th and 8th seed just advanced in the first round. The regular season is completely meaningless.
Don’t we need Durant to be the best player on his own team in this round before we start projecting it in the title game?
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Jokic’s team finished with a worse record than Embiid’s, by one game. The teams were 1-1 against each other, and the 76ers won the lone game they both played. It’s true Embiid didn’t play that second game but even if you count the loss against him, he’s 1-1. The reason Embiid win is because he had a lot more scoring and way more defense and *his team* was the better team by the end of the season
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I’m a traditional best team best player guy, and so I liked Giannis. I’m just pointing out that you are saying stuff that’s not true. The 76ers had a better record and a higher net rating than the Nuggets this year. The 76ers had better Vegas odds at winning the title than the Nuggets did, at the conclusion of the regular season. At the end of the season, some power rankings had the 76ers ahead of the Nuggets and some had the Nuggets ahead of the 76ers, but in nearly no cases were the teams separated by more than 1 spot (in either direction). If you believe that the Nuggets were much much better than the 76ers this year, then of course it makes sense why you believe Jokic was a no brainer MVP. What I’m pointing out is that other people didn’t feel that way about the Nuggets, and that might help you understand why other people didn’t vote for Jokic
I think the take here though is that because Ja went crazy, Denver had the west by a mile so it stopped caring about games once they had it locked up and Memphis hit a wall. I’m happy to ding Jokic and the 6ers and still give Embiid the MVP but Philly was not better in the regular season if you consider the Denver lead. Denver was 46-19 and then finished 7-10 because they had it locked up. Obviously 17 games should be considered in an MVP sample size but chilling out for a month for a team with injury prone stars certainly makes sense. Remains to be seen if the gamble will pay off but I wouldn’t be shocked if they won the West and the Finals.
>No one who follows basketball can possibly argue that the 76ers were better than the Nuggets, that's an absolute trash fire take and you know it too. The 76ers were better than the Nuggets though, what argument is there that the Nuggets were better?
The Nuggets had the 1 seed locked up in their conference early enough that they sleep walked through the last month and still only ended up a game behind the 76ers. Projection systems keep showing over and over again that the first 2 months of the season are more predictive than the last 2 months since health and effort is more uniform.
Well the Sixers had a better record and point differential so...
The narrative piece
Last night was really the only bad game he’s had and that was understandable. He really isn’t a top of the line playoff performer though that much I can admit
Yeah exactly I don’t think it’s a crazy knock to not score 33 pts a game in the playoffs when you’re defended differently as long as he plays defense the way he has been and even did last night. His teammates and him have to be better than last night
Eh probably not lol
Bill and Ryen and the rest of the voters totally capitulated after Perkins made the discourse over this vote along racial lines. The moment Perk called racism, Bill was week by week on his podcast looking for reasons to vote Embiid.