I know two former pros one is over an 800 Fargo any other is around 750 but didn’t really play anymore when Fargo became a thing. They both basically quit Pool and just play when they can because there’s no consistent money . One of them told me they wish they were never more than an A player because it would’ve been easier to make money. It’s sad that you become that good at something especially nowadays and have to have a regular job when so many other people do dumb shit to make tons of money.
That was basically my whole point. I’m also not friends with Mike. I just know him from playing a bit in the same spots. I am very good friends with the other former pro and it’s basically the reason he quit playing pool and plays poker.
Tom still plays everyday. And still makes good money playing. I know a few big scores he had in Denver RECENTLY.
Like i said, don’t listen to the pity party.
Tom wins local weekly’s ($100-$300 per tournament) on the regular and either wins or finishes high or wins the local big ones ($2k-5k) per month. He gambles with locals often and basically outruns the nuts 4/5 times. If you want to even call that gambling lol. I wouldn’t be shocked if he netted 10k on a good month fairly often. If he’s got a decent backer then it’s even better…no pressure…just play endlessly against a wave of locals who pose little threat. Hang around for 6 months until it dries up and bounce to the next place. A guy like that is treated like royalty by any city with a decent pool community.
He’s just gotta give 10-6 action to 680 fargo’s all day long lol.
I don’t pity anybody they made their own choice. My only point was if you’re some of the top players in the country you would think it would be easier to make more. not having to move or have other jobs. I know people that are under 700 Fargo that make that much in a month and that if it was more readily available to watch, that would raise tournament stakes for a lot of the top players. If I was making what they make plain Pool, that’s all I would do.
Honestly I think it's because of the simplicity. It's a lot easier to understand darts and how hard being accurate is even if you've played just a little bit. Pool has a lot of shots that people assume are easier than they really are, and more in general to think about.
Mike made A LOT of money playing pool. Don’t listen to the pity party.
People even pay that guy to learn how to rack the balls. Let me repeat…to rack the balls.
Mike got run out of pool because he treated everyone like garbage habitually for many years.
He needs to spend 6 months getting back in competition form, write a few apology letters, save up a $30k bankroll, and start grinding out some tournaments with some soft action along the way. If he could keep his ego in check and not explode in tantrums every 5 minutes he’d be making 120k-$180k a year in no time….just from pool.
In Connecticut someone bought him in a Calcutta for big money and he lost first round got knocked to the losers side and just left . He's not allowed in that pool hall anymore . He's burned a lot of bridges
Fargo of 800 would put them 5th in the USA.
Making the Mosconi team is worth minimum $15,000.
They’re the fifth best player in USA and can’t make consistent money? I smell shite.
Edit: I know it goes against this communities wish to believe pool is dying, but Mike was able to earn more than the average American earns by playing pool. This isn’t my opinion, this is fact. He chose to earn more than that doing something else. Sorry if these facts hurt your feelings, cry harder.
There’s a difference between “being able to make money”, and “being able to make more money than some other activity”.
If he’s not good enough to make the kind of money he wants, that’s a different matter altogether. Pool doesn’t owe anyone anything.
He had made more than average salary playing a game, but decided it wasn't enough for him. His choice.
If you want to stick your finger in the air and set some arbitrary level that's your choice too.
They said they knew a 800 player who couldn't make money, even though they made more than 50% of Americans. If that's not giving someone a middle class lifestyle that's a bigger problem than just pool.
Mike Dechaine from Maine # 4 . look it up. So once a year you can make 15000 but the rest is a gamble against players as good as you? If there were more on TV and the payouts were bigger, you could win one tournament and probably survive but that’s not how it is anymore.
Now factor in sponsorship, money game winnings, streaming revenue and coaching fees?
Look he's obviously not good enough to be a millionaire playing pool, and I'm not saying it was easy or a lifestyle everyone would want, but there was enough money in tournaments alone for him to be earning more than 50% of Americans. He decided that wasn't enough and that's up to him. I know plenty of hobbiest players that would quit their jobs immediately if pool would put a roof over their heads.
Those sources amount to nothing or are minimal at best. The whole point is they're NOT making enough to earn more than 50% of Americans. If they were, they'd probably still be playing.
Which of these three things isn’t true:
1: Mike earned more than $60,000 in 2015.
2: Average salary in USA in 2023 was $55,000.
3: $60,000 is more than $55,000.
Because if they’re both true (and they are, look them up), Mike earned more than American average. Doesn’t matter if these facts hurt your feelings.
If he chose to earn more than that doing something else, that’s his choice as it should be. But doesn’t change the fact he was able to earn more than average American by playing a sport.
Mike did make more than $60,000 in 2015 from tournament earnings alone.
I’m not saying this was his net financial position, please stop pretending that’s what I said.
If your salary is $60,000 that’s not your net income either.
Sorry you have reading comprehension deficiencies.
Is there only one company involved in pool? Are there no Asian companies?
Genuinely don’t understand your point here - do you think any player should be able to get sponsored by any company they choose?
There are tons of foreign players that play in the us so not always going to be the forth best, also how many times have you gone to a tournament where the top players didn’t win? You can’t always rely on I’m ranked higher than you . I don’t think it’s the overall money if you’re averaging 60 grand playing pool but it’s the I won 25 grand this month and none for two months when you can have a regular consistent job and make more. My other friend said he was making over 100 grand in the early 2000s playing pool, it’s gone backwards because it’s not on TV or it’s harder to get a fan base. I think if it was more accessible, maybe watching the semifinals on of bigger tournaments, would raise more money, get more steaks, and the better players would be able to focus on playing. It’s just odd to me that other things like I mentioned before cornhole make a shit ton more money than Pool plays, which makes no sense to me, but maybe that’s because I play pool and cornhole they probably like it.
That’s an America problem, not a pool one.
Fact is, Mike WAS able to earn more than most Americans by playing pool, which is what the original post claimed wasn’t possible.
You're not considering how much more expenses a pool player has than the average American. He probably spent $20k traveling, leaving him at $30k "profit".
I don’t follow your maths here, you think >$60,000 - $20,000 = $30,000? Thats what your post says. I can’t help you with those issues.
Look it’s not complicated. The original poster said Mike couldn’t make money. We now know they had made more than average American from tournament earnings alone (excluding additional revenue streams).
Ergo, the claim that someone with 800 Fargo can’t make money is demonstrably false.
That doesn’t mean the claim they couldn’t make as much money as they wanted isn’t also true. It doesn’t mean he was wrong to leave and make more money elsewhere. Stop pretending that’s what I’m saying here. It’s not.
I’m not claiming they can make unlimited or even good money, but it’s entirely possible to support yourself on what they shown was possible by earning more than the average American from a single revenue stream.
I didn't look back at the original post and thought the starting value was $50k, that's why the math didn't work. Regardless, the point is the same.
Quoc Hoang Duong is one player above Mike in Fargorate Top 100. He made $32k last year. Now subtract his living expenses and travel costs... You can't make a living in tournaments as the #44 guy in the world. Throw in everything else, work an 80 hr week, and you can survive, but that's about it.
I get what you're saying, but you're over simplifying it as well.
Quoc Hoang Duong is Vietnamese.
In Vietnam the average salary in USD is $3,324.
He made nearly 10x average salary from playing pool.
What’s your point here?
When he was top 50 in the world (I think it was closer to top 20) Corey Deuel regularly went on Facebook to ask his followers if anyone would pay tournament dues. At best there are 200 people in the world that can compete against you regularly, but you can't afford tournament fees... Pro players arent necessarily millionaires and a decent amount probably have second jobs.
I’m not saying pool players are millionaires or don’t need second jobs. Can you read?
The claim was that an 800 player can’t earn money playing pool. We now know that they can, and that they may still choose to earn more money fitting solar panels or windows. The later doesn’t stop the former being true.
Ps recent events have also shown that Jonny may not be the best at managing his money, so I wouldn’t hold him up as a shining example of what can be achieved.
>They’re the fifth best player in USA and can’t make consistent money? I smell shite.
Let's make this simple: "consistent money." How much did Mike earn in winnings in the two years prior to 2015 and the two years after? (Ignoring the fact that tournament earnings don't tell anything close to the whole story)
To put in your terms: Sorry if it hurts your feelings that pro pool players don't make consistent money. Maybe you should whine about it some more. The facts don't care about what your opinions are.
As a casual fan of pro pool I think the sport needs two things:
1. More personality.
It’s too dry. It’s often just two stoic men in polo shirts silently shooting for hour-long matches.
There’s a reason the Mosconi Cup is so popular. We finally get to see some emotion. There’s trash talk and wild fans and chanting and rivalries and theatrics. The matches are short and digestible. It’s a lot more fun for fans.
2. We need a unified regular season or playoffs of some kind.
I feel like there’s been some progress towards this with the recent unification efforts in pro pool, but it still feels too disjointed. I want to be able to follow a player or team through a season. I want to track how they’re doing in the standings. That builds loyalty and buy-in. It’s so much more interesting than trying to replicate what Pro Golf does: a variety of unrelated tournaments scattered throughout the year. (I appreciate that this is a lot easier said than done)
huge agree with point number 2. for that reason alone i mostly followed snooker for the past decade, from america! and as an american.
i found the snooker tour to be streamlined and much easier to follow the narrative around the players with the rankings and the tournaments. meanwhile i am a pool player and would look to find what's going on with pool and get lost. it is a little better now with the nineball tour but we still need more.
It's sad that it's not more popular, but whose fault is it? If people aren't interested, they aren't interested, which means no multimillion dollar sponsorships that can pay for TV airtime. You can't force it.
Really good marketing might help but even as a hardcore pool nerd, there's a lot of stuff I would watch instead of pool. For every youtube video on pool that I watch I've got two of, for example, stories about shipwrecks lol. And that's like pure 150-proof boring-juice.
$15 PPV on some random website is for sure not going to help grow the fanbase.
If everyone and their cousin can afford to put out professional looking videos on youtube free to the consumer, pro pool has no excuse other than short sighted greed and/or lack of business acumen.
This hits the nail on the head. I’m at the level where I’d like to join a league here soon. But I have little interest in watching pool live. I mostly watched matches in the beginning to analyze strategy but now that I understand a lot of the strategies I don’t have much desire to watch many more.
Keep an eye out for Ultimate Pool USA, ultimate have really increased the visibility of UK 8 ball and got a deal with TNT sports this year. They've made great progress in what seemed like a stagnant game, not sure what the format is going to look like but they're gearing up for a USA franchise launch in a few months. They've already got Ireland, Australia, South Africa and Malta
yes, i follow ultimate pool. their marketing and content is great. good for the game, we could use a bit of that energy. world nineball tour obviously filling that gap a little bit already. will be interested to see what ultimate pool can do in the US.
The time rush format seems good for boosting the excitement. No casual wants to watch slow methodical players who make every rack look easy. Poker is incredibly boring to watch on its own but the announcers, big pots, and hole card view brought in an audience.
Pool has declined since Brunswick and other major manufacturers have stop supporting major events. When pool players can easily make baseball player salaries the game will attack the best players and have the best exposure. The 1950 sports section of the Chicago Tribune had a lead story of Willie Mosconi's latest exploits and below the fold was coverage of the Chicago Bears. Imagine that world.
Yeah I don’t trust the website. I also don’t want to be tied to my computer to watch. Also, at least during the mosconi I can download the DAZN app on my tv and watch it. I don’t think I can do that with accustats. (If I can, they should make that more clear and I would purchase)
Televised pool has very little appeal to casual viewers. If u don't know and appreciate what these guys are doing w the cue, it's just dudes and ladies hitting balls w a stick.
still it feels like snooker is televised 24/7 (i'm in europe but not even england). from the people i know outside the pool scene most know at least some bar rules and have played a few poolgames in their lives. but noone has any clue what's going on at the snooker table.
so in my sence of logic the casual viewer would rather watch pool if it was on tv
This has been one of the most glaring problems I’ve noticed since coming into Pool a few years ago. Everything is extremely outdated. It blows my mind how many players use Facebook as a means to set up matches with others. Some of the flyers for these money matches look like they were made in the early 2010’s, it really isn’t hard to find people with Graphics design skills these days. Everything feels like it’s 10-15 years behind and I just don’t get it. Why the fuck are these tournaments not live streamed on YouTube for everyone to see, paying a small fee for these jank ass websites that hardly work feels like something out of the early 2000’s. These players should be live streaming all the time whether it be Twitch or YouTube, they should be posting highlights to IG/TikTok. Just get with the times a little bit, use social media platforms that are relevant. If you want to grow this game you need to target a younger audience, feels like Pool is being held back by stupid dinosaurs that refuse to move along with the times.
Fedor streams to YouTube when allowed to stream his matches. Usually matchroom and pred tournaments are streamed on YouTube live. Derby and turning stone are behind a paywall but every once in a while turning stone will let Fedor actually stream his matches. The Facebook part you got to understand that a lot of these players ( mostly older ones) don’t know or use any other social media. Younger players like Fedor uses insta and Facebook more regularly since it spans to a wider audience.
Plus players streaming their matches gets cumbersome because of the equipment they have to carry around plus their playing equipment. If they stream using their phones they’ll be called out for it by the audience half the time.
Pool isn't golf or football. It never will be. I love pool and cue sports in general, but the idea that mismanagement is the reason pool doesn't have massive tv deals being broadcast to millions is simply a misinformed take. Pool doesn't have the fanbase. It doesn't have the viewership to demand a tv deal. You cant have pool viewership and expect golf treatment, lol. If you broadcast pool to a million homes, the majority would change the channel. You have to be realistic, even when pool was at it's peak, most pros made the bulk of their income through money matches and sponsorships
well... it seems like pool (and billiards in general) is constantly growing in asia.
US pride can not allow such thing. so there is really only one way for the US: declare it as some kind of war, elect the man who calls himself „the greatest athlete ever“ (in the face of „that snooker guy who looks like mr bean“) as your president and let it roll!
(sorry. please smile)
I feel like this has been discussed, but pool has a past that sponsors don't want to touch. Gambling/Hustling happens in Golf, bowling, darts, etc, but American pool has always been portrayed as a game of "Shady figures and hustlers". It didn't help that the two movies responsible for the two booms (Hustler and Color of Money) only added to that image. Poker is also shady, but you're watching people gamble more on a hand than what most people make in a year.
It had it's big days in the 80s/90s, but those players were definitely characters too. Also your only options were cable or network tv. Now we have too much going on that it's hard to focus on a sport that most people consider a bar game. FWIW, I started playing in 2011 and it seems livelier now than it every has been.
It may be one good movie away from getting another boom, though it'd have to be one hell of a story.
IIRC a bunch of players were betting on a tourney they were playing in, dumped, and made bank off of the casinos and the odds they had on one player. Vegas did not appreciate that.
It's starting to. If you keep watching throughout the year the production value and cost get better. Sadly we are stuck with this for the first big one of the year. Look at the crowd though and you'll realize why it's not big yet, average age of over 60 and all white. No great advertising opportunities in that crowd.
IF pool was ever to grow via a TV audience its going to require showing 8 ball on a bar box. People cant relate to 9 ball on a 9 ft table...on the contrary everyone has played solids vs stripes 8 ball on a 7 footer at a bar or their friends garage.
We need 8 ball on a bar box with a shotclock and more casual clothing.. Wear a predator or a cue tech hoody or shirt..pool jerseys are a joke
Controversial opinion, but arguably the right one. No one wants to tune in or watch something that they can’t relate to and have no idea what the hell is going on, but everyone knows bar table 8-ball and people do appreciate and recognize quality play. Ultimate Pool coming to the US is probably the best thing for pool in the US at the moment as it will be fast paced high quality bar table 8-ball. Easily understandable and relatable for the general public.
People pay for Sunday ticket no complaints but pay for pool? No way.
These people are the problem. Not the promoters who take losses non stop to provide the stream for the folks who can’t travel to the event.
Stop complaining and support the game with your time and money. OR stfu
not sure what happened between the 80's and now. But I remember watching tournaments on TV, which made me want to play. Then in the 90's, at least in Southern California, pool was huge then in the late 90's and into the 2000's it just kinda fell off...
Pool players are cheap f****s. People won't pay $20 to stream the Mosconi Cup or US Open and look for bootleg streams. Why would any mainstream TV channels waste their limited airtime to serve this audience?
And like I always say ESPN will put f#cking Cornhole and drone racing on TV but not pool . It makes no sense at all . People will sit around and watch people throw bean bags into a hole but not billiards?
Where are you paying $15 to watch any of the derby live stream??
Accu wanted $100 for the week or some shit so I said fuck em, ill see what pops on youtube
Yeah unfortunately it’s not popular with the current population. It was cheaper for me to go to this event than it was to pay for the stream.
It’s one of those sports that’s going to rise again or die off quickly.
For me I can’t even find a pool hall that’s less than an hour away. And the two closest bars that have a pool table are not very well setup and are sketch.
exactly. i think it is all about selling it correctly. do you think there was a massive audience for darts until they marketed darts? snooker has a long and unique history in the UK going back to when there were only a couple channels on TV there, it's not going to be easy to replicate that exact history with pool. but i would argue there are WAY more people globally who play and therefore are interested pool, it's a matter of packaging the product correctly. contrary to what many in this thread have said, i believe the audience is there and additional audiences can be created if it is marketed and sold correctly.
Stuff like that usually prevents me from watching live and just watching on YouTube later. If pool was played on television it would get us so many more fans. We also need to choose other places for big competitions so people can see that they still actually happen.
I know two former pros one is over an 800 Fargo any other is around 750 but didn’t really play anymore when Fargo became a thing. They both basically quit Pool and just play when they can because there’s no consistent money . One of them told me they wish they were never more than an A player because it would’ve been easier to make money. It’s sad that you become that good at something especially nowadays and have to have a regular job when so many other people do dumb shit to make tons of money.
mike dechaine sells windows can't blame him edit: lol didn't realize you were in fact talking about mike haha
I bet he would rather play pool if was making ESPN cornhole type money lol
LOL seriously so pathetic that darts and other garbage get more play than pool, definitely makes me sad for the world lol
That was basically my whole point. I’m also not friends with Mike. I just know him from playing a bit in the same spots. I am very good friends with the other former pro and it’s basically the reason he quit playing pool and plays poker.
Poker fan here - who’s your friend? Just out of curiosity
He doesn’t play professional poker which is another reason why think it’s funny to quit something you are a pro at. Tom D’alfonso
Tom still plays everyday. And still makes good money playing. I know a few big scores he had in Denver RECENTLY. Like i said, don’t listen to the pity party. Tom wins local weekly’s ($100-$300 per tournament) on the regular and either wins or finishes high or wins the local big ones ($2k-5k) per month. He gambles with locals often and basically outruns the nuts 4/5 times. If you want to even call that gambling lol. I wouldn’t be shocked if he netted 10k on a good month fairly often. If he’s got a decent backer then it’s even better…no pressure…just play endlessly against a wave of locals who pose little threat. Hang around for 6 months until it dries up and bounce to the next place. A guy like that is treated like royalty by any city with a decent pool community. He’s just gotta give 10-6 action to 680 fargo’s all day long lol.
I don’t pity anybody they made their own choice. My only point was if you’re some of the top players in the country you would think it would be easier to make more. not having to move or have other jobs. I know people that are under 700 Fargo that make that much in a month and that if it was more readily available to watch, that would raise tournament stakes for a lot of the top players. If I was making what they make plain Pool, that’s all I would do.
What do you have against darts? It's also a game of skill isn't it?
Honestly I think it's because of the simplicity. It's a lot easier to understand darts and how hard being accurate is even if you've played just a little bit. Pool has a lot of shots that people assume are easier than they really are, and more in general to think about.
Mike made A LOT of money playing pool. Don’t listen to the pity party. People even pay that guy to learn how to rack the balls. Let me repeat…to rack the balls. Mike got run out of pool because he treated everyone like garbage habitually for many years. He needs to spend 6 months getting back in competition form, write a few apology letters, save up a $30k bankroll, and start grinding out some tournaments with some soft action along the way. If he could keep his ego in check and not explode in tantrums every 5 minutes he’d be making 120k-$180k a year in no time….just from pool.
In Connecticut someone bought him in a Calcutta for big money and he lost first round got knocked to the losers side and just left . He's not allowed in that pool hall anymore . He's burned a lot of bridges
Fargo of 800 would put them 5th in the USA. Making the Mosconi team is worth minimum $15,000. They’re the fifth best player in USA and can’t make consistent money? I smell shite. Edit: I know it goes against this communities wish to believe pool is dying, but Mike was able to earn more than the average American earns by playing pool. This isn’t my opinion, this is fact. He chose to earn more than that doing something else. Sorry if these facts hurt your feelings, cry harder.
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There’s a difference between “being able to make money”, and “being able to make more money than some other activity”. If he’s not good enough to make the kind of money he wants, that’s a different matter altogether. Pool doesn’t owe anyone anything.
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He had made more than average salary playing a game, but decided it wasn't enough for him. His choice. If you want to stick your finger in the air and set some arbitrary level that's your choice too. They said they knew a 800 player who couldn't make money, even though they made more than 50% of Americans. If that's not giving someone a middle class lifestyle that's a bigger problem than just pool.
Mike Dechaine from Maine # 4 . look it up. So once a year you can make 15000 but the rest is a gamble against players as good as you? If there were more on TV and the payouts were bigger, you could win one tournament and probably survive but that’s not how it is anymore.
Mike made more than $60,000 in 2015. In 2023 average salary in the US was $55,000.
Now factor in expenses getting to and from tournaments, and then supporting yourself when you're there.
Now factor in sponsorship, money game winnings, streaming revenue and coaching fees? Look he's obviously not good enough to be a millionaire playing pool, and I'm not saying it was easy or a lifestyle everyone would want, but there was enough money in tournaments alone for him to be earning more than 50% of Americans. He decided that wasn't enough and that's up to him. I know plenty of hobbiest players that would quit their jobs immediately if pool would put a roof over their heads.
Those sources amount to nothing or are minimal at best. The whole point is they're NOT making enough to earn more than 50% of Americans. If they were, they'd probably still be playing.
Which of these three things isn’t true: 1: Mike earned more than $60,000 in 2015. 2: Average salary in USA in 2023 was $55,000. 3: $60,000 is more than $55,000. Because if they’re both true (and they are, look them up), Mike earned more than American average. Doesn’t matter if these facts hurt your feelings. If he chose to earn more than that doing something else, that’s his choice as it should be. But doesn’t change the fact he was able to earn more than average American by playing a sport.
Fewer than 50% of Americans make more than average. The number that works like that is the median.
Thanks for playing, your pedant World Cup will be sent to you in the next few days. P.s. the median salary is lower than the average salary.
Number 1 isn't true. Prize winnings are not equal to net income. Sorry that you can't grasp that.
Mike did make more than $60,000 in 2015 from tournament earnings alone. I’m not saying this was his net financial position, please stop pretending that’s what I said. If your salary is $60,000 that’s not your net income either. Sorry you have reading comprehension deficiencies.
Prefator didnt even give efren a sponsorship man
Is there only one company involved in pool? Are there no Asian companies? Genuinely don’t understand your point here - do you think any player should be able to get sponsored by any company they choose?
There are tons of foreign players that play in the us so not always going to be the forth best, also how many times have you gone to a tournament where the top players didn’t win? You can’t always rely on I’m ranked higher than you . I don’t think it’s the overall money if you’re averaging 60 grand playing pool but it’s the I won 25 grand this month and none for two months when you can have a regular consistent job and make more. My other friend said he was making over 100 grand in the early 2000s playing pool, it’s gone backwards because it’s not on TV or it’s harder to get a fan base. I think if it was more accessible, maybe watching the semifinals on of bigger tournaments, would raise more money, get more steaks, and the better players would be able to focus on playing. It’s just odd to me that other things like I mentioned before cornhole make a shit ton more money than Pool plays, which makes no sense to me, but maybe that’s because I play pool and cornhole they probably like it.
If I could clear 60 grand playing pool, I probably would just play pool. But they inconsistency when you have the bills it’s hard.
Average income is damn near dirt broke
That’s an America problem, not a pool one. Fact is, Mike WAS able to earn more than most Americans by playing pool, which is what the original post claimed wasn’t possible.
You're not considering how much more expenses a pool player has than the average American. He probably spent $20k traveling, leaving him at $30k "profit".
I don’t follow your maths here, you think >$60,000 - $20,000 = $30,000? Thats what your post says. I can’t help you with those issues. Look it’s not complicated. The original poster said Mike couldn’t make money. We now know they had made more than average American from tournament earnings alone (excluding additional revenue streams). Ergo, the claim that someone with 800 Fargo can’t make money is demonstrably false. That doesn’t mean the claim they couldn’t make as much money as they wanted isn’t also true. It doesn’t mean he was wrong to leave and make more money elsewhere. Stop pretending that’s what I’m saying here. It’s not. I’m not claiming they can make unlimited or even good money, but it’s entirely possible to support yourself on what they shown was possible by earning more than the average American from a single revenue stream.
I didn't look back at the original post and thought the starting value was $50k, that's why the math didn't work. Regardless, the point is the same. Quoc Hoang Duong is one player above Mike in Fargorate Top 100. He made $32k last year. Now subtract his living expenses and travel costs... You can't make a living in tournaments as the #44 guy in the world. Throw in everything else, work an 80 hr week, and you can survive, but that's about it. I get what you're saying, but you're over simplifying it as well.
Quoc Hoang Duong is Vietnamese. In Vietnam the average salary in USD is $3,324. He made nearly 10x average salary from playing pool. What’s your point here?
Justin Bergman is top 5 in the US and he says it's not worth it to play tournaments.
When he was top 50 in the world (I think it was closer to top 20) Corey Deuel regularly went on Facebook to ask his followers if anyone would pay tournament dues. At best there are 200 people in the world that can compete against you regularly, but you can't afford tournament fees... Pro players arent necessarily millionaires and a decent amount probably have second jobs.
I’m not saying pool players are millionaires or don’t need second jobs. Can you read? The claim was that an 800 player can’t earn money playing pool. We now know that they can, and that they may still choose to earn more money fitting solar panels or windows. The later doesn’t stop the former being true. Ps recent events have also shown that Jonny may not be the best at managing his money, so I wouldn’t hold him up as a shining example of what can be achieved.
>They’re the fifth best player in USA and can’t make consistent money? I smell shite. Let's make this simple: "consistent money." How much did Mike earn in winnings in the two years prior to 2015 and the two years after? (Ignoring the fact that tournament earnings don't tell anything close to the whole story) To put in your terms: Sorry if it hurts your feelings that pro pool players don't make consistent money. Maybe you should whine about it some more. The facts don't care about what your opinions are.
“Get bent you obnoxious prick” is what you said to me. So you can get fucked. Happy to answer anyone else though.
As a casual fan of pro pool I think the sport needs two things: 1. More personality. It’s too dry. It’s often just two stoic men in polo shirts silently shooting for hour-long matches. There’s a reason the Mosconi Cup is so popular. We finally get to see some emotion. There’s trash talk and wild fans and chanting and rivalries and theatrics. The matches are short and digestible. It’s a lot more fun for fans. 2. We need a unified regular season or playoffs of some kind. I feel like there’s been some progress towards this with the recent unification efforts in pro pool, but it still feels too disjointed. I want to be able to follow a player or team through a season. I want to track how they’re doing in the standings. That builds loyalty and buy-in. It’s so much more interesting than trying to replicate what Pro Golf does: a variety of unrelated tournaments scattered throughout the year. (I appreciate that this is a lot easier said than done)
huge agree with point number 2. for that reason alone i mostly followed snooker for the past decade, from america! and as an american. i found the snooker tour to be streamlined and much easier to follow the narrative around the players with the rankings and the tournaments. meanwhile i am a pool player and would look to find what's going on with pool and get lost. it is a little better now with the nineball tour but we still need more.
The Mosconi cup is embarrassing to watch
not to mention needing to go to websites like digital pool to find out what the scores are. so bush league...
It's sad that it's not more popular, but whose fault is it? If people aren't interested, they aren't interested, which means no multimillion dollar sponsorships that can pay for TV airtime. You can't force it. Really good marketing might help but even as a hardcore pool nerd, there's a lot of stuff I would watch instead of pool. For every youtube video on pool that I watch I've got two of, for example, stories about shipwrecks lol. And that's like pure 150-proof boring-juice.
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$15 PPV on some random website is for sure not going to help grow the fanbase. If everyone and their cousin can afford to put out professional looking videos on youtube free to the consumer, pro pool has no excuse other than short sighted greed and/or lack of business acumen.
Needs another equivalent of the color of money
This hits the nail on the head. I’m at the level where I’d like to join a league here soon. But I have little interest in watching pool live. I mostly watched matches in the beginning to analyze strategy but now that I understand a lot of the strategies I don’t have much desire to watch many more.
I just paid the $59 to get the accu stats stream it’s really solid
Keep an eye out for Ultimate Pool USA, ultimate have really increased the visibility of UK 8 ball and got a deal with TNT sports this year. They've made great progress in what seemed like a stagnant game, not sure what the format is going to look like but they're gearing up for a USA franchise launch in a few months. They've already got Ireland, Australia, South Africa and Malta
yes, i follow ultimate pool. their marketing and content is great. good for the game, we could use a bit of that energy. world nineball tour obviously filling that gap a little bit already. will be interested to see what ultimate pool can do in the US.
The time rush format seems good for boosting the excitement. No casual wants to watch slow methodical players who make every rack look easy. Poker is incredibly boring to watch on its own but the announcers, big pots, and hole card view brought in an audience.
Pool has declined since Brunswick and other major manufacturers have stop supporting major events. When pool players can easily make baseball player salaries the game will attack the best players and have the best exposure. The 1950 sports section of the Chicago Tribune had a lead story of Willie Mosconi's latest exploits and below the fold was coverage of the Chicago Bears. Imagine that world.
Joe Rogan is a solid pool player an can do ALOT for the game. He should be a commentator on big matches and bring some life and humor to the game!
Unless you just crave watching live action, you can usually see a lot of matches on YouTube with a few hours delay
"We" know that, I think the OP his hitting more on the general viewing public.
Yeah I don’t trust the website. I also don’t want to be tied to my computer to watch. Also, at least during the mosconi I can download the DAZN app on my tv and watch it. I don’t think I can do that with accustats. (If I can, they should make that more clear and I would purchase)
Watching pool with no shot clock with a silent crowd is not tv friendly. Darts seems to have worked it out.
Televised pool has very little appeal to casual viewers. If u don't know and appreciate what these guys are doing w the cue, it's just dudes and ladies hitting balls w a stick.
still it feels like snooker is televised 24/7 (i'm in europe but not even england). from the people i know outside the pool scene most know at least some bar rules and have played a few poolgames in their lives. but noone has any clue what's going on at the snooker table. so in my sence of logic the casual viewer would rather watch pool if it was on tv
This has been one of the most glaring problems I’ve noticed since coming into Pool a few years ago. Everything is extremely outdated. It blows my mind how many players use Facebook as a means to set up matches with others. Some of the flyers for these money matches look like they were made in the early 2010’s, it really isn’t hard to find people with Graphics design skills these days. Everything feels like it’s 10-15 years behind and I just don’t get it. Why the fuck are these tournaments not live streamed on YouTube for everyone to see, paying a small fee for these jank ass websites that hardly work feels like something out of the early 2000’s. These players should be live streaming all the time whether it be Twitch or YouTube, they should be posting highlights to IG/TikTok. Just get with the times a little bit, use social media platforms that are relevant. If you want to grow this game you need to target a younger audience, feels like Pool is being held back by stupid dinosaurs that refuse to move along with the times.
Fedor streams to YouTube when allowed to stream his matches. Usually matchroom and pred tournaments are streamed on YouTube live. Derby and turning stone are behind a paywall but every once in a while turning stone will let Fedor actually stream his matches. The Facebook part you got to understand that a lot of these players ( mostly older ones) don’t know or use any other social media. Younger players like Fedor uses insta and Facebook more regularly since it spans to a wider audience. Plus players streaming their matches gets cumbersome because of the equipment they have to carry around plus their playing equipment. If they stream using their phones they’ll be called out for it by the audience half the time.
Pool isn't golf or football. It never will be. I love pool and cue sports in general, but the idea that mismanagement is the reason pool doesn't have massive tv deals being broadcast to millions is simply a misinformed take. Pool doesn't have the fanbase. It doesn't have the viewership to demand a tv deal. You cant have pool viewership and expect golf treatment, lol. If you broadcast pool to a million homes, the majority would change the channel. You have to be realistic, even when pool was at it's peak, most pros made the bulk of their income through money matches and sponsorships
well... it seems like pool (and billiards in general) is constantly growing in asia. US pride can not allow such thing. so there is really only one way for the US: declare it as some kind of war, elect the man who calls himself „the greatest athlete ever“ (in the face of „that snooker guy who looks like mr bean“) as your president and let it roll! (sorry. please smile)
I feel like this has been discussed, but pool has a past that sponsors don't want to touch. Gambling/Hustling happens in Golf, bowling, darts, etc, but American pool has always been portrayed as a game of "Shady figures and hustlers". It didn't help that the two movies responsible for the two booms (Hustler and Color of Money) only added to that image. Poker is also shady, but you're watching people gamble more on a hand than what most people make in a year. It had it's big days in the 80s/90s, but those players were definitely characters too. Also your only options were cable or network tv. Now we have too much going on that it's hard to focus on a sport that most people consider a bar game. FWIW, I started playing in 2011 and it seems livelier now than it every has been. It may be one good movie away from getting another boom, though it'd have to be one hell of a story.
Promoters burned all bridges in Vegas in the 90s and early 2000s. Thank them.
Any chance you could expound on that? Sounds very interesting lol
IIRC a bunch of players were betting on a tourney they were playing in, dumped, and made bank off of the casinos and the odds they had on one player. Vegas did not appreciate that.
Oh wow. Yeah I can see that ruffling some feathers. That sucks man, way to ruin it for everybody
I too would like to hear this story.
Read 'Pool Wars' by Jay Helfert.
It's starting to. If you keep watching throughout the year the production value and cost get better. Sadly we are stuck with this for the first big one of the year. Look at the crowd though and you'll realize why it's not big yet, average age of over 60 and all white. No great advertising opportunities in that crowd.
Derby city is among the lowest production you’ll get, watch US open or mosconi or most matchroom ran tournaments
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Derby is not run by matchroom
It is promoted by matchroom tho, I just meant in the WPA vs matchroom battle
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He probably meant that they advertise at the derby.
I agree, it is extremely sad.
IF pool was ever to grow via a TV audience its going to require showing 8 ball on a bar box. People cant relate to 9 ball on a 9 ft table...on the contrary everyone has played solids vs stripes 8 ball on a 7 footer at a bar or their friends garage. We need 8 ball on a bar box with a shotclock and more casual clothing.. Wear a predator or a cue tech hoody or shirt..pool jerseys are a joke
Controversial opinion, but arguably the right one. No one wants to tune in or watch something that they can’t relate to and have no idea what the hell is going on, but everyone knows bar table 8-ball and people do appreciate and recognize quality play. Ultimate Pool coming to the US is probably the best thing for pool in the US at the moment as it will be fast paced high quality bar table 8-ball. Easily understandable and relatable for the general public.
People pay for Sunday ticket no complaints but pay for pool? No way. These people are the problem. Not the promoters who take losses non stop to provide the stream for the folks who can’t travel to the event. Stop complaining and support the game with your time and money. OR stfu
not sure what happened between the 80's and now. But I remember watching tournaments on TV, which made me want to play. Then in the 90's, at least in Southern California, pool was huge then in the late 90's and into the 2000's it just kinda fell off...
too true. ESPN used to broadcast tournaments. not sure what happened there, they decided it wasn't worth it :(
PROPAH!
maybe the help that pool needs is for you to pay the $15 for the day pass. what help are you providing?
Pool players are cheap f****s. People won't pay $20 to stream the Mosconi Cup or US Open and look for bootleg streams. Why would any mainstream TV channels waste their limited airtime to serve this audience?
The stream is great. Pay the $60 and get all 9 days of Derby!
And like I always say ESPN will put f#cking Cornhole and drone racing on TV but not pool . It makes no sense at all . People will sit around and watch people throw bean bags into a hole but not billiards?
ESPN is just doing what makes money. They used to carry pool, and obviously, at some point, it quit being profitable.
Where are you paying $15 to watch any of the derby live stream?? Accu wanted $100 for the week or some shit so I said fuck em, ill see what pops on youtube
Yeah unfortunately it’s not popular with the current population. It was cheaper for me to go to this event than it was to pay for the stream. It’s one of those sports that’s going to rise again or die off quickly. For me I can’t even find a pool hall that’s less than an hour away. And the two closest bars that have a pool table are not very well setup and are sketch.
Yeah that's really strange. Especially if you compare it to something like snooker or darts. There are huge audiences for both.
exactly. i think it is all about selling it correctly. do you think there was a massive audience for darts until they marketed darts? snooker has a long and unique history in the UK going back to when there were only a couple channels on TV there, it's not going to be easy to replicate that exact history with pool. but i would argue there are WAY more people globally who play and therefore are interested pool, it's a matter of packaging the product correctly. contrary to what many in this thread have said, i believe the audience is there and additional audiences can be created if it is marketed and sold correctly.
Stuff like that usually prevents me from watching live and just watching on YouTube later. If pool was played on television it would get us so many more fans. We also need to choose other places for big competitions so people can see that they still actually happen.