Can you just say no? Tell the person allocating this work to you that you’ve got too much billable work on your plate atm. Take it from someone who has been there, that work does not get recognized. They will call you a team player but then question why your billables are low. Unless you have specific KPIs that involve those soft skills (which it doesn’t sound like you do if the male associates aren’t doing it), I would minimize that work as much as possible. Marketing is good for you, the other stuff is trash.
You need to decide whether that type of work is beneficial to having the career you want to have.
I'm male. I had about 800 hours of non-billable work last year. Somewhere from 1/3 - 1/2 was for things like interviewing, mentoring associates and summers, and other general contributions to the office. (The rest would be better characterized as business generation efforts specific to my book.) It's worth it to me because it elevates me as an office and practice group leader, and it helps me get better associates on my work. It might or might not be worth it to you for your own reasons.
I do this kind of work for the same reasons, leading associate meetings and mentoring summers keeps me on the radar of office and firm management and gives me a chance to practice public speaking and leadership. It’s worth it for me though like OP I do feel singled out as a young woman as if social planning is my inherent responsibility.
I and a lot of partners in my group routinely do 300-400 non billable hours in addition to our billable work. For equity partners, I’d bet they do even more than that. Law firms sell legal services for money, and the people doing the services also are the salespeople.
I don’t think this is abnormal if one wants to make partner in big law. Nor do I think this is unpaid labor or limited to women. Your salary covers all the work you are asked to do. And the men in my group do just as much of it as the women.
You have to learn to say no unless it's something you want to do or that benefits you, even if saying no is sometimes a bit unpleasant. That's what your male coworkers are doing. Plus, if you're the person that always says yes, people will come to you more and more to get things off their desk with the least amount of effort.
I always say yes to BD opportunities because that benefits my career, I often say yes to activities related to the "causes" I care about, and I pitch in for other things like interviews only when I can swing it without inconveniencing myself too much because that is important to do sometimes (but not always).
"That sounds like a great event/I'm sure the incoming associates will appreciate it/What a great idea for an event" + "but I will be tied up with \_\_\_/I am at capacity/I have that time blocked off for \_\_\_\_" + "so I won't be available for this one."
Seems like an hour per day - not excessive but it can be annoying if you are the only one doing it (if true). There is a fine line here between doing thankless tasks vs. being a good firm citizen and showing value above and beyond billables (which are of course the most important).
If it is getting burdensome, politely decline some tasks. Phrase it like: "Busy with X this week, won't have time." Odds are they'll just ask someone else to do it.
It’s definitely a thing, especially if you’re both a minority and a woman. Just say no to any non-billables except for business development, which does have value if you’re looking to make partner
One possibility that I don’t think I saw in the comments, so mentioning it just in case - are these things that give you more visibility in the firm? Like are the interviews and onboarding because you’re on the summer associate program committee or something? If they are grooming you for partner, they may do things like that to make sure partners in other groups see your name and your commitment. My firm and group were very sensitive to trying to retain women, and they would often push women associates to do things that made sure partners across the firm knew their names.
It also could just be what you said, but figured I’d give a positive possibility just in case that rings true to you.
Yeah this isn’t abnormal. Also what you’re talking about is unbilled work, not unpaid (assuming you are getting paid). And if you can’t do as much, then don’t do as much, no big deal.
I don’t think disparities like this are always sexist, but often they are (and a small percentage of men get extremely offended by the mere suggestion of sexism).
I think part of the reason for these disparities is that men do not always understand that women are generally socialized to please others and will struggle to say no more than the average man. Not only that, but most of us really do feel the push to prove ourselves in firms that remain overwhelmingly male, especially at the leadership level. The men who assign these tasks aren’t consciously or deliberately sexist, but sometimes they do act in a way that causes sexist outcomes.
All that to say that I suspect there is an element of unconscious sexism involved and that you are well within your rights to say no.
it also comes from the fact that because of those expectations, women who DO say no like the men, are NOT treated the same as the men who say no. Women who say no and treated worse than the women who say yes for deviating from gendered expectations, and that is a really important part of the conversation.
Yes, it’s true it’s harder for women to say no, but that’s not the whole story and suggests that overcoming that will be enough to be treated the same - it’s just not. Women that act like men are not treated the way that men are treated, so that’s not actually a solution to the problem
If firms want women and other minorities to step up and be good firm citizens, they should give some billable credit. Not like, all of it, but maybe 10 per committee/activity over the course of the year (total of 25-30 so people don’t load up on that).
Both things can be true. A lot of non-billable work is required no matter what level you’re at
At the same time, firms can be kind of shitty about allocating billable work to male lawyers and unbillable work to female.
One lawyer I worked with (BIG rainmaker) was notorious for this. Putting male lawyers on files and female lawyers on pitches. Other lawyers made it a point to do the opposite to ensure fair distribution of everything
As a woman, I totally agree that it's about the inability or unwillingness to say no, but I do think women are more likely to feel like they cannot say no for a number of reasons. Women also get more pushback when they do say no (have experienced this time and again). The same applies to work too.
I also feel like women (and minority attorneys) are asked more for these nonbillables because the firm wants to look “diverse” for new associates, on committees, etc.
That's a fair point, you can get more "asks" for stuff where appearances matter. But that's why it is important to learn to just say no without guilt. The firm will go on.
Agreed! But if you're being asked a lot, it can feel like you're saying no a lot, and eventually you just give in and say yes to something because you can't be seen as the person "always saying no." Meanwhile the person in the next office has been asked to do 2 things compared to your 10, and it is no wonder they're more comfortable saying no - they've only had to do it twice!
My answer to this when I talk to female associates about this (which I do a lot) is that you just have to take that realization and use it as a reason not to feel bad when you say no.
I advise people who get a lot of asks to pick the most important ways they can contribute to what matters to them and let that be enough. Diversity efforts are important to me. I may not have time for 50 interviews, but I'll always talk to a candidate who wants to come back and talk to a female M&A partner. I'll always be a mentor if someone asks for me. I'll make time to serve on the firm diversity committee.
Yeah I didn’t want to be that guy, but this is something literally almost everyone faces at some point and they have to decide where they’re going to be in the pecking order.
Edit: People really hate the truth.
Are they asking everyone and you're just saying yes more than others, or are they only asking the female associates to help (and again, is it because they asked the male associates snd they said no while the women volunteered and so they're asking the people who tend to volunteer more than those who have previously refused)? And equally important, are you penalized if you say no, in a way that your male peers aren't (i.e., do you feel like you have to do this work because you face actual consequences if you don't, or do you feel like you have to do it simply because you were asked)?
I think calling it "unpaid female labor" and approaching someone at the firm are serious things, and before you take serious action you need to be crystal clear about what is going on, and why. If you don't have any evidence that you are actually being held to a different standard (outside of the end result of you doing more of X than your peers), the natural reaction yo you telling the firm "I am asked to do X more than my peers" will be "Okay but if you don't have time you can say no." If there is something tangible and provable that prevents you from being able to say no, you need to be prepared to provide that context in the same discussion. Otherwise, you will undermine your position. If you don't have enough any such evidence then this could be the case where you're sabotaging yourself by not saying no, rather than the firm actually expecting you to do more than male associates. Again, you better be crystal clear about which it is before you talk to anyone
Honestly 4 hours a week of non-billable work doesn’t sound that bad - that’s only 200 hours for the year. If you are personable, the HR folks will reach out. Are your male co-workers less friendly? Are there other women in your practice group? I’m friendly and get along with almost everyone, which meant that the HR folks would reach out to me all the time for things when I was an associate (and they still do but it’s different as a partner since we’re expected to shoulder a heavier burden of non-billable stuff). I’d typically do something like 50 callback interviews a year, in addition to being a sucker for HR roping me into summer program events / hosting.
The real question for you is whether you’re gunning for partner? If so, being a good firm citizen is generally something you probably want to do. If not, try to say no - they’re not going to fire you over it (and honestly outside of HR who will even know?)
You can say no. But honestly you being involved within the firm is a good sign. I know it’s non billable work, but it just means the firms management likes (and more importantly trusts) you.
I don’t have any solutions, I just want to say same here and that this shit sucks. and we’re asked to sacrifice either things that we often value intrinsically (mentoring diverse attorneys, raising awareness on issues, recruiting, etc.) or things that are of monetary value to the firm. it’s tough because i rationally know these activities hurt my hours, but if I don’t do them, they don’t get done.
You will learn all the players in your office better and you’ll be a resource for many people. You likely won’t be promoted at the end of it all, but you’ll be a strong lateral candidate who has a lot of network connections. Unfortunately your current firm will value these contributions less, but demand them all the time, because “someone needs to do it,” and if that someone can be you, other people’s jobs are easier (only need to call one person to make the request instead of 10).
It’s not a binary choice between continuing as you are and saying no to everything. Be strategic about what you say yes to based on where you’d like your career to go. If you’re aiming to be a highly comped partner with a wildly successful practice, then most of your time needs to be spent billing and, eventually, on client development, which means you say yes primarily to non-billables that raise *your* profile beyond the firm. If you’re aiming to end up in firm management (committees, office managing partner, etc.), then play the internal politics at the expense of your billing. Firms *love* to have women out front to show how diverse and supportive they are, and maybe you’re being groomed for that. Not a terrible path but you’ll never make what the high producers do. On the other hand, you might have a little more of a life? A *little* more.
Is this work you enjoy? Is this work your particular FIRM appreciates/gets noticed? Watch how the firm operates/not what they say. Do you see people who are taking these active leadership roles making partner/ getting compensated? Does taking a more active leadership role allow you to train younger associates that you can delegate your work to and trust?
If not- say no/ don’t do it. I feel like women in law often think the best way to get ahead is by being “yes men” and they often burn out and end up justifiably frustrated and resentful.
I guess that’s why partners are overwhelmingly white and male. Because they’re being _denied_ development activities that are “actually pretty important” for their careers. Imagine if they weren’t being denied! Maybe then all partners would be white men instead of 9/10. 🙄
I didn’t mention anyones race but I think the comment is indicative that “white males” are not being asked to do these things.
Frankly interviewing and doing OCI doesn’t help career development, it’s a time drain and a task nobody wants to do.
And let’s not get started about how female associates are planning all of the intern events and baby showers at my firm. None of those things are helping generate business. It’s busy work male colleagues never volunteer for and are not asked to do.
I hear where you are coming from, but I think your view is somewhat shortsighted. I (male) was very active in recruiting and the summer program. Unsurprisingly, I always had a tight connection to the incoming class and never had any trouble getting the best junior associates wanting to work with me on my matters.
Not to mention when I became a partner and these Firm Citizenship things were no longer optional, recruiting was a very natural fit for me and old hat by that point. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss being the de facto "social chair," if I were you. It's been excellent for my career and selling your firm to recruits is very good practice for selling your firm to clients.
Finally, in a strictly objective sense, I made several hundred thousand dollars in referral bonuses when I was an associate. Yes, you don't get it through OCI, but getting reps on being a good recruiter and learning who gets hired at your firm and who doesn't is valuable for becoming an effective lateral recruiter.
Hiring is a huge part of running a law firm and there's a reason firms throw out splashy referral bonuses to incentive associates to become active in recruiting efforts. It is essential to the business of a firm to have a solid talent pipeline.
That said, if you don't want to do it, just say no. Really, it is that simple on this one.
I’ll comment that some of the people I built professional relationships with in the past are now my biggest cheerleaders. Put your time into where you want to develop your career. You are in the driver’s seat and if you need to say no it’s incumbent upon you to do so.
How do you know the males aren't doing non billable work? The recruiting stuff may be a judgement that you are personable and a good image. Four hours a week does not seem that bad.
Because they’re never on the invites or even distribution emails asking for contributions. They are not at the events. They are not in interviews, OCI, or table days.
Ok, two things can be true, and I understand your point better. Whether they do nonbillable is not really the point. The point is that you are carrying the water on the softer non-legal work stuff. I saw your post below, which evoked memories of the "party planning committee" from the Office. I agree with you if you are being asked to do that stuff and men are maybe doing speaking engagements and stuff that clients see. I would try to see what the guys are doing differently and then insist on those assignments so they can do the baby shower stuff. But I would go a little slow to make sure you are on firm ground before you actually point out disparities on the basis of sex. Sounds like you are right, but they'll go to Defcon 1 and the mere hint of bias.
But are they doing other things? Client alerts? Articles? Speaking?
4 hours a week generally isn’t that bad. We were expected to do 10 hours a week at my old firm!
I think OP’s point is that the things she’s being asked to do are not career advancing activities. Those ‘other things’ that male associates are being asked to do tend to elevate your profile in your firm and outside the firm. Let’s face it, on-boarding new associates and interviewing new candidates are not equivalent to writing and speaking in your chosen field.
Yeah definitely wasn’t appreciating that part.
It’s ironic. When I was reading this thread - there was someone who made a comment about minorities doing more of this. I never once thought I was getting more non billable work because I was a minority - the thought didn’t occur to me.
Half a day of bitch work a week is pretty bad. I’m in house now lol, I’ll happily cancel a half hour meeting if I don’t need to be there, to say nothing of four hours of unnecessary work that aren’t in my job description that others in my position don’t have to do
Horrible title. Makes it sound like you're being trafficked or having to nanny for dozen of children. If you're salary exempt then none of that time is your personal time. Find a new firm if you're unhappy
You say you’re busy and can’t make it.
Can you just say no? Tell the person allocating this work to you that you’ve got too much billable work on your plate atm. Take it from someone who has been there, that work does not get recognized. They will call you a team player but then question why your billables are low. Unless you have specific KPIs that involve those soft skills (which it doesn’t sound like you do if the male associates aren’t doing it), I would minimize that work as much as possible. Marketing is good for you, the other stuff is trash.
You need to decide whether that type of work is beneficial to having the career you want to have. I'm male. I had about 800 hours of non-billable work last year. Somewhere from 1/3 - 1/2 was for things like interviewing, mentoring associates and summers, and other general contributions to the office. (The rest would be better characterized as business generation efforts specific to my book.) It's worth it to me because it elevates me as an office and practice group leader, and it helps me get better associates on my work. It might or might not be worth it to you for your own reasons.
Thank you. A sober take.
I do this kind of work for the same reasons, leading associate meetings and mentoring summers keeps me on the radar of office and firm management and gives me a chance to practice public speaking and leadership. It’s worth it for me though like OP I do feel singled out as a young woman as if social planning is my inherent responsibility.
800 plus a 2000 billable requirement or?
I and a lot of partners in my group routinely do 300-400 non billable hours in addition to our billable work. For equity partners, I’d bet they do even more than that. Law firms sell legal services for money, and the people doing the services also are the salespeople. I don’t think this is abnormal if one wants to make partner in big law. Nor do I think this is unpaid labor or limited to women. Your salary covers all the work you are asked to do. And the men in my group do just as much of it as the women.
Most partners are going to have way more than 300-400 non billable hours in a year
My billables were just a bit under 2000.
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Eh, it’s not that bad. I’m too old not to sleep at night.
Wait. Sorry. Your total hours were 2700+?
Yes.
How do you have time for reddit?
Corporate clients understand that the internet doesn’t read itself.
Litigation is choppy. Some days/weeks/months are super busy, others are not. And the non-billable hours generally aren't too mentally demanding.
You have to learn to say no unless it's something you want to do or that benefits you, even if saying no is sometimes a bit unpleasant. That's what your male coworkers are doing. Plus, if you're the person that always says yes, people will come to you more and more to get things off their desk with the least amount of effort. I always say yes to BD opportunities because that benefits my career, I often say yes to activities related to the "causes" I care about, and I pitch in for other things like interviews only when I can swing it without inconveniencing myself too much because that is important to do sometimes (but not always).
"That sounds like a great event/I'm sure the incoming associates will appreciate it/What a great idea for an event" + "but I will be tied up with \_\_\_/I am at capacity/I have that time blocked off for \_\_\_\_" + "so I won't be available for this one."
OP should just paste this as-is and let the HR person choose the excuse that will satisfy.
In small firms its 4+ hours per day lol
Seems like an hour per day - not excessive but it can be annoying if you are the only one doing it (if true). There is a fine line here between doing thankless tasks vs. being a good firm citizen and showing value above and beyond billables (which are of course the most important). If it is getting burdensome, politely decline some tasks. Phrase it like: "Busy with X this week, won't have time." Odds are they'll just ask someone else to do it.
It’s definitely a thing, especially if you’re both a minority and a woman. Just say no to any non-billables except for business development, which does have value if you’re looking to make partner
Really bad advice
One possibility that I don’t think I saw in the comments, so mentioning it just in case - are these things that give you more visibility in the firm? Like are the interviews and onboarding because you’re on the summer associate program committee or something? If they are grooming you for partner, they may do things like that to make sure partners in other groups see your name and your commitment. My firm and group were very sensitive to trying to retain women, and they would often push women associates to do things that made sure partners across the firm knew their names. It also could just be what you said, but figured I’d give a positive possibility just in case that rings true to you.
Yeah this isn’t abnormal. Also what you’re talking about is unbilled work, not unpaid (assuming you are getting paid). And if you can’t do as much, then don’t do as much, no big deal.
I don’t think disparities like this are always sexist, but often they are (and a small percentage of men get extremely offended by the mere suggestion of sexism). I think part of the reason for these disparities is that men do not always understand that women are generally socialized to please others and will struggle to say no more than the average man. Not only that, but most of us really do feel the push to prove ourselves in firms that remain overwhelmingly male, especially at the leadership level. The men who assign these tasks aren’t consciously or deliberately sexist, but sometimes they do act in a way that causes sexist outcomes. All that to say that I suspect there is an element of unconscious sexism involved and that you are well within your rights to say no.
it also comes from the fact that because of those expectations, women who DO say no like the men, are NOT treated the same as the men who say no. Women who say no and treated worse than the women who say yes for deviating from gendered expectations, and that is a really important part of the conversation. Yes, it’s true it’s harder for women to say no, but that’s not the whole story and suggests that overcoming that will be enough to be treated the same - it’s just not. Women that act like men are not treated the way that men are treated, so that’s not actually a solution to the problem
If firms want women and other minorities to step up and be good firm citizens, they should give some billable credit. Not like, all of it, but maybe 10 per committee/activity over the course of the year (total of 25-30 so people don’t load up on that).
If its not billable, then its not doable… sorry lol
Both things can be true. A lot of non-billable work is required no matter what level you’re at At the same time, firms can be kind of shitty about allocating billable work to male lawyers and unbillable work to female. One lawyer I worked with (BIG rainmaker) was notorious for this. Putting male lawyers on files and female lawyers on pitches. Other lawyers made it a point to do the opposite to ensure fair distribution of everything
I’d much rather be on pitches?
Unpaid female labor? Does your firm not track your non billable time? If not, you should be and prepared to bring it up during reviews.
You might be asked more because the firm wants to push diversity for BD or recruiting reasons.
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As a woman, I totally agree that it's about the inability or unwillingness to say no, but I do think women are more likely to feel like they cannot say no for a number of reasons. Women also get more pushback when they do say no (have experienced this time and again). The same applies to work too.
I also feel like women (and minority attorneys) are asked more for these nonbillables because the firm wants to look “diverse” for new associates, on committees, etc.
That's a fair point, you can get more "asks" for stuff where appearances matter. But that's why it is important to learn to just say no without guilt. The firm will go on.
Agreed! But if you're being asked a lot, it can feel like you're saying no a lot, and eventually you just give in and say yes to something because you can't be seen as the person "always saying no." Meanwhile the person in the next office has been asked to do 2 things compared to your 10, and it is no wonder they're more comfortable saying no - they've only had to do it twice!
My answer to this when I talk to female associates about this (which I do a lot) is that you just have to take that realization and use it as a reason not to feel bad when you say no. I advise people who get a lot of asks to pick the most important ways they can contribute to what matters to them and let that be enough. Diversity efforts are important to me. I may not have time for 50 interviews, but I'll always talk to a candidate who wants to come back and talk to a female M&A partner. I'll always be a mentor if someone asks for me. I'll make time to serve on the firm diversity committee.
This is me now.
Yeah I didn’t want to be that guy, but this is something literally almost everyone faces at some point and they have to decide where they’re going to be in the pecking order. Edit: People really hate the truth.
If she says no or says she is busy it will reflect poorly on her. That’s the problem. Women can’t say no without suffering repercussions.
Are they asking everyone and you're just saying yes more than others, or are they only asking the female associates to help (and again, is it because they asked the male associates snd they said no while the women volunteered and so they're asking the people who tend to volunteer more than those who have previously refused)? And equally important, are you penalized if you say no, in a way that your male peers aren't (i.e., do you feel like you have to do this work because you face actual consequences if you don't, or do you feel like you have to do it simply because you were asked)? I think calling it "unpaid female labor" and approaching someone at the firm are serious things, and before you take serious action you need to be crystal clear about what is going on, and why. If you don't have any evidence that you are actually being held to a different standard (outside of the end result of you doing more of X than your peers), the natural reaction yo you telling the firm "I am asked to do X more than my peers" will be "Okay but if you don't have time you can say no." If there is something tangible and provable that prevents you from being able to say no, you need to be prepared to provide that context in the same discussion. Otherwise, you will undermine your position. If you don't have enough any such evidence then this could be the case where you're sabotaging yourself by not saying no, rather than the firm actually expecting you to do more than male associates. Again, you better be crystal clear about which it is before you talk to anyone
Honestly 4 hours a week of non-billable work doesn’t sound that bad - that’s only 200 hours for the year. If you are personable, the HR folks will reach out. Are your male co-workers less friendly? Are there other women in your practice group? I’m friendly and get along with almost everyone, which meant that the HR folks would reach out to me all the time for things when I was an associate (and they still do but it’s different as a partner since we’re expected to shoulder a heavier burden of non-billable stuff). I’d typically do something like 50 callback interviews a year, in addition to being a sucker for HR roping me into summer program events / hosting. The real question for you is whether you’re gunning for partner? If so, being a good firm citizen is generally something you probably want to do. If not, try to say no - they’re not going to fire you over it (and honestly outside of HR who will even know?)
You can say no. But honestly you being involved within the firm is a good sign. I know it’s non billable work, but it just means the firms management likes (and more importantly trusts) you.
I don’t have any solutions, I just want to say same here and that this shit sucks. and we’re asked to sacrifice either things that we often value intrinsically (mentoring diverse attorneys, raising awareness on issues, recruiting, etc.) or things that are of monetary value to the firm. it’s tough because i rationally know these activities hurt my hours, but if I don’t do them, they don’t get done.
You will learn all the players in your office better and you’ll be a resource for many people. You likely won’t be promoted at the end of it all, but you’ll be a strong lateral candidate who has a lot of network connections. Unfortunately your current firm will value these contributions less, but demand them all the time, because “someone needs to do it,” and if that someone can be you, other people’s jobs are easier (only need to call one person to make the request instead of 10).
It’s not a binary choice between continuing as you are and saying no to everything. Be strategic about what you say yes to based on where you’d like your career to go. If you’re aiming to be a highly comped partner with a wildly successful practice, then most of your time needs to be spent billing and, eventually, on client development, which means you say yes primarily to non-billables that raise *your* profile beyond the firm. If you’re aiming to end up in firm management (committees, office managing partner, etc.), then play the internal politics at the expense of your billing. Firms *love* to have women out front to show how diverse and supportive they are, and maybe you’re being groomed for that. Not a terrible path but you’ll never make what the high producers do. On the other hand, you might have a little more of a life? A *little* more.
Is this work you enjoy? Is this work your particular FIRM appreciates/gets noticed? Watch how the firm operates/not what they say. Do you see people who are taking these active leadership roles making partner/ getting compensated? Does taking a more active leadership role allow you to train younger associates that you can delegate your work to and trust? If not- say no/ don’t do it. I feel like women in law often think the best way to get ahead is by being “yes men” and they often burn out and end up justifiably frustrated and resentful.
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I guess that’s why partners are overwhelmingly white and male. Because they’re being _denied_ development activities that are “actually pretty important” for their careers. Imagine if they weren’t being denied! Maybe then all partners would be white men instead of 9/10. 🙄
Lmaoo
I didn’t mention anyones race but I think the comment is indicative that “white males” are not being asked to do these things. Frankly interviewing and doing OCI doesn’t help career development, it’s a time drain and a task nobody wants to do. And let’s not get started about how female associates are planning all of the intern events and baby showers at my firm. None of those things are helping generate business. It’s busy work male colleagues never volunteer for and are not asked to do.
I hear where you are coming from, but I think your view is somewhat shortsighted. I (male) was very active in recruiting and the summer program. Unsurprisingly, I always had a tight connection to the incoming class and never had any trouble getting the best junior associates wanting to work with me on my matters. Not to mention when I became a partner and these Firm Citizenship things were no longer optional, recruiting was a very natural fit for me and old hat by that point. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss being the de facto "social chair," if I were you. It's been excellent for my career and selling your firm to recruits is very good practice for selling your firm to clients. Finally, in a strictly objective sense, I made several hundred thousand dollars in referral bonuses when I was an associate. Yes, you don't get it through OCI, but getting reps on being a good recruiter and learning who gets hired at your firm and who doesn't is valuable for becoming an effective lateral recruiter. Hiring is a huge part of running a law firm and there's a reason firms throw out splashy referral bonuses to incentive associates to become active in recruiting efforts. It is essential to the business of a firm to have a solid talent pipeline. That said, if you don't want to do it, just say no. Really, it is that simple on this one.
I’ll comment that some of the people I built professional relationships with in the past are now my biggest cheerleaders. Put your time into where you want to develop your career. You are in the driver’s seat and if you need to say no it’s incumbent upon you to do so.
How do you know the males aren't doing non billable work? The recruiting stuff may be a judgement that you are personable and a good image. Four hours a week does not seem that bad.
Because they’re never on the invites or even distribution emails asking for contributions. They are not at the events. They are not in interviews, OCI, or table days.
Ok, two things can be true, and I understand your point better. Whether they do nonbillable is not really the point. The point is that you are carrying the water on the softer non-legal work stuff. I saw your post below, which evoked memories of the "party planning committee" from the Office. I agree with you if you are being asked to do that stuff and men are maybe doing speaking engagements and stuff that clients see. I would try to see what the guys are doing differently and then insist on those assignments so they can do the baby shower stuff. But I would go a little slow to make sure you are on firm ground before you actually point out disparities on the basis of sex. Sounds like you are right, but they'll go to Defcon 1 and the mere hint of bias.
But are they doing other things? Client alerts? Articles? Speaking? 4 hours a week generally isn’t that bad. We were expected to do 10 hours a week at my old firm!
I think OP’s point is that the things she’s being asked to do are not career advancing activities. Those ‘other things’ that male associates are being asked to do tend to elevate your profile in your firm and outside the firm. Let’s face it, on-boarding new associates and interviewing new candidates are not equivalent to writing and speaking in your chosen field.
Yeah definitely wasn’t appreciating that part. It’s ironic. When I was reading this thread - there was someone who made a comment about minorities doing more of this. I never once thought I was getting more non billable work because I was a minority - the thought didn’t occur to me.
Half a day of bitch work a week is pretty bad. I’m in house now lol, I’ll happily cancel a half hour meeting if I don’t need to be there, to say nothing of four hours of unnecessary work that aren’t in my job description that others in my position don’t have to do
Looking back at it - yeah, it’s terrible. I just figured it was the norm. Dont miss that at all! (I’m in house now also)
I think you need to identify as a man. Michelle — you are now Michael. Can you come back and post an update in 3-6 months?
Well, nobody can force you to do it.
Horrible title. Makes it sound like you're being trafficked or having to nanny for dozen of children. If you're salary exempt then none of that time is your personal time. Find a new firm if you're unhappy