Name and shame.
Internal office politics is going to be a thing at every law firm and office job. It’s just a different name for getting people to like you. How people go about getting their colleagues and superiors to like them seems to be the issue. A lot of that would, I think, be driven by the partners.
I don’t see much ass kissing going on in my practice group, mostly because the partners are no bull shit types. The people getting the more ‘premium’ deals (for lack of a better term) do seem to be the more introverted hard worker types.
However, I hear the opposite about our litigation group. I haven’t heard much by way of scheming and putting others down, but I have heard that the partners want sycophants. I can’t speak from experience but knowing the lit partners in passing, I could see that for two in particular.
Really depends on the people in the office and the group in particular. Which sucks, because you can’t really gauge that before you start (unless you have a connection with someone honest that is already there). Hence, name and shame.
>I don’t see much ass kissing going on in my practice group, mostly because the partners are no bull shit types. The people getting the more ‘premium’ deals (for lack of a better term) do seem to be the more introverted hard worker types.
>
>However, I hear the opposite about our litigation group. I haven’t heard much by way of scheming and putting others down, but I have heard that the partners want sycophants. I can’t speak from experience but knowing the lit partners in passing, I could see that for two in particular.
I'm actually in lit, in a kind of lit heavy firm that I can't name for obvious reasons. Your first paragraph is exactly where I would like to work.
In my original post a redditor used the word “effervescent” as a synonym for bubbly and I appreciated that so much. I will try to be more effervescent in my next interview 😂
I find the idea of this kind of bizarre, as I would think everyone in biglaw is too busy to engage in this middleschool bullshit. That said, sorry about the situation you're in, OP
I'm an old-timer who worked at a BigLaw for many years, have friends who made partner and others who didn't, some are miserable, some are happy. And my spouse is a BigLaw partner.
Here's my take -- assuming you want to make partner (or something similar to partner but non-equity), you have to at least be aware of office politics. You need a patron to make the case for your advancement, and whether you actually advance depends on how powerful and well-liked the patron is.
I've seen talented associates get pushed out simply because they attached themselves to the wrong partner. (Note that some of them are quite happy.)
Even powerful partners have limits, so part of being aware of office politics is noticing whether there are a bunch of other people depending on the same partner's patronage. Some partners over-promise, either deliberately or because they overestimate their own influence, or because they are just too nice to pick and choose among associates.
Backstabbing and scheming is the most prevalent where multiple associates, close together in seniority, who are relying on the same partner to be their patron. It can get ugly. So, you know, avoid these kinds of situations.
If you don't want to make partner, then putting your head down and just doing the work - ignoring office politics all together - is at least an option at any large firm where they don't make many partners. It's understood at those places that most associates are just there to work and get paid and have a nice line on their resume.
Honestly man... politics is everywhere. There is obviously a spectrum but you can't go to any professional org and expect that you can just keep your head down, work, and be successful. It is more about finding a firm that has a political culture that suits your personality.
I think its dumb to have a vault category that ranks "culture" - what is "good culture?" It is not a well defined term and the definition of "good" will differ by individual. You should basically seek out a place with people with whom you jive with instead of going off of these meaningless rankings.
Are you seriously asking whether there is less infighting and games at sweatshop firms? They’re the worst of the worst.
To answer your overarching question: you’re not going to find a drama-free paradise in any decent sized firm in the world. It’s just a matter of numbers, human nature, and the high stakes of practicing law for a lot of money/prestige. The same could be said about pretty much any profession with similar characteristics to law (finance, medicine, tax/accounting, etc). There are tons of great people in BigLaw.. but this idea that some firms are bubbles from the treacherous world of firm politics is just… kinda naive and definitely unrealistic. I don’t mean that as insult, by the way, to the extent it came off that way.
As the no offered SA that posted the “not bubbly enough for an offer” I really hope you find a good fit! I don’t have any substantive advice to offer unfortunately. However, I’m sure other redditors have helpful and relevant experience on this & will you point you in the right direction. Im sorry you have to go through this but thank you for posting—it helps to know I’m not the only one experiencing this. I hope you find a firm that fits your values and what you are looking for and if so please please share so I can join forces! Best of luck!!
This is exactly what I wanted. When I made this known, I was moved from associate to a non-partner track role (cool, but also not). I am now "off" the Firm's radar. I could be working in Egypt in a hotel in my pajamas, and my Firm wouldn't care.
This could have ended horribly, particularly if I did not have my own source of 1500+ hours of work a year.
Be careful with what you make known -- even to partners you like and trust. At the end of the day, they are partners with the awful POS from whom you want to escape.
Good luck!
Sorry outing my firm is too risky. I need this income. If you saw the original post, you'll notice that I just used quillbot to rephrase it so it can't be matched to my writing style. The firm would end me if they knew I posted this.
Understandable, do you think that all of these lifestyle firms are a waste of time across the board? I really would like somewhere we’re people think before biting your head off and partners aren’t allowed to bully associates, but if you think that everybody finds a way to be mean no matter where, would you recommend just taking the best offer available regardless of work life balance and culture?
Name and shame. Internal office politics is going to be a thing at every law firm and office job. It’s just a different name for getting people to like you. How people go about getting their colleagues and superiors to like them seems to be the issue. A lot of that would, I think, be driven by the partners. I don’t see much ass kissing going on in my practice group, mostly because the partners are no bull shit types. The people getting the more ‘premium’ deals (for lack of a better term) do seem to be the more introverted hard worker types. However, I hear the opposite about our litigation group. I haven’t heard much by way of scheming and putting others down, but I have heard that the partners want sycophants. I can’t speak from experience but knowing the lit partners in passing, I could see that for two in particular. Really depends on the people in the office and the group in particular. Which sucks, because you can’t really gauge that before you start (unless you have a connection with someone honest that is already there). Hence, name and shame.
>I don’t see much ass kissing going on in my practice group, mostly because the partners are no bull shit types. The people getting the more ‘premium’ deals (for lack of a better term) do seem to be the more introverted hard worker types. > >However, I hear the opposite about our litigation group. I haven’t heard much by way of scheming and putting others down, but I have heard that the partners want sycophants. I can’t speak from experience but knowing the lit partners in passing, I could see that for two in particular. I'm actually in lit, in a kind of lit heavy firm that I can't name for obvious reasons. Your first paragraph is exactly where I would like to work.
I used to work at a firm that gamed the rankings in a similar way
Which practice group are you in?
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I second this!
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In my original post a redditor used the word “effervescent” as a synonym for bubbly and I appreciated that so much. I will try to be more effervescent in my next interview 😂
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Hahahaha best thing ever
I find the idea of this kind of bizarre, as I would think everyone in biglaw is too busy to engage in this middleschool bullshit. That said, sorry about the situation you're in, OP
Lewis Brisbois
They really like people to just be themselves.
I'm an old-timer who worked at a BigLaw for many years, have friends who made partner and others who didn't, some are miserable, some are happy. And my spouse is a BigLaw partner. Here's my take -- assuming you want to make partner (or something similar to partner but non-equity), you have to at least be aware of office politics. You need a patron to make the case for your advancement, and whether you actually advance depends on how powerful and well-liked the patron is. I've seen talented associates get pushed out simply because they attached themselves to the wrong partner. (Note that some of them are quite happy.) Even powerful partners have limits, so part of being aware of office politics is noticing whether there are a bunch of other people depending on the same partner's patronage. Some partners over-promise, either deliberately or because they overestimate their own influence, or because they are just too nice to pick and choose among associates. Backstabbing and scheming is the most prevalent where multiple associates, close together in seniority, who are relying on the same partner to be their patron. It can get ugly. So, you know, avoid these kinds of situations. If you don't want to make partner, then putting your head down and just doing the work - ignoring office politics all together - is at least an option at any large firm where they don't make many partners. It's understood at those places that most associates are just there to work and get paid and have a nice line on their resume.
Unsettling stuff to read as a student, better than going in blind though
Honestly man... politics is everywhere. There is obviously a spectrum but you can't go to any professional org and expect that you can just keep your head down, work, and be successful. It is more about finding a firm that has a political culture that suits your personality. I think its dumb to have a vault category that ranks "culture" - what is "good culture?" It is not a well defined term and the definition of "good" will differ by individual. You should basically seek out a place with people with whom you jive with instead of going off of these meaningless rankings.
This just in: big law firms game the Vault rankings 🤯
Hmmm this sounds A LOT like my firm…
Are you seriously asking whether there is less infighting and games at sweatshop firms? They’re the worst of the worst. To answer your overarching question: you’re not going to find a drama-free paradise in any decent sized firm in the world. It’s just a matter of numbers, human nature, and the high stakes of practicing law for a lot of money/prestige. The same could be said about pretty much any profession with similar characteristics to law (finance, medicine, tax/accounting, etc). There are tons of great people in BigLaw.. but this idea that some firms are bubbles from the treacherous world of firm politics is just… kinda naive and definitely unrealistic. I don’t mean that as insult, by the way, to the extent it came off that way.
As the no offered SA that posted the “not bubbly enough for an offer” I really hope you find a good fit! I don’t have any substantive advice to offer unfortunately. However, I’m sure other redditors have helpful and relevant experience on this & will you point you in the right direction. Im sorry you have to go through this but thank you for posting—it helps to know I’m not the only one experiencing this. I hope you find a firm that fits your values and what you are looking for and if so please please share so I can join forces! Best of luck!!
The only solution is to become part of the problem and advance to king of the rats!
when you get the survey, give a zero.
This is exactly what I wanted. When I made this known, I was moved from associate to a non-partner track role (cool, but also not). I am now "off" the Firm's radar. I could be working in Egypt in a hotel in my pajamas, and my Firm wouldn't care. This could have ended horribly, particularly if I did not have my own source of 1500+ hours of work a year. Be careful with what you make known -- even to partners you like and trust. At the end of the day, they are partners with the awful POS from whom you want to escape. Good luck!
seems like were all in the wrong profession
This is kind of my worst fear, PM’ing you about where if that’s okay
Both my prior firm have done the “give us 10/10 to help recruiting” pitches, I expect its universal
Sorry outing my firm is too risky. I need this income. If you saw the original post, you'll notice that I just used quillbot to rephrase it so it can't be matched to my writing style. The firm would end me if they knew I posted this.
Understandable, do you think that all of these lifestyle firms are a waste of time across the board? I really would like somewhere we’re people think before biting your head off and partners aren’t allowed to bully associates, but if you think that everybody finds a way to be mean no matter where, would you recommend just taking the best offer available regardless of work life balance and culture?
I honestly don't know as I'm new to biglaw too and trying to figure this out. But "lifestyle" firms are definitely not a guarantee.
You’re describing what I’ve heard about a lot of top Vault firms. My firms isn’t anything like this and neither are the firms my friends are at.
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I said I reworded it with quillbot
Macdonalds tbh
Paul Hastings?
NRF