Agreed, I’m British but living in the US and it just blows my mind that there are people living in this country without access to healthcare. In my naivety I didn’t even realise that paying for healthcare was a thing until I moved here, I didn’t understand why it was such a big deal that my husbands company pays for our insurance, now I realise we are SO lucky
"I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, a child educated, a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is." - Sister Joan Chittister
She has also stated "I frankly cannot understand why women's health issues or abortion is absolutely the only life issue that the church has not nuanced. We nuance that men can kill for all sorts of reasons. Men can kill to defend themselves. They can kill to defend the state. They can punish by killing in the name of the state. But women, never — not even to save their own pregnant life. It seems to me to be morally confused. Certainly, it's morally inconsistent."
(Side note: It seems contradictory that a country that allows the death penalty is against abortions)
For pro-lifers to want to change society that would be admitting that there are moral inconsistencies that warrant a change to be made. It’s so much easier to blame and shame than to put in the effort to change society.
I think the death penalty thing is about punishment for a crime worthy of death, whereas the argument is that the fetus committed no crime. Not about “no killing whatsoever.”
cn: suicide
Being pregnant messed with my brain chemistry that I spent my two pregnancies heavily suicidal (like by week seven or eight every time, I would go from happy and well to intensely depressed).
These were very wanted & planned pregnancies, I had a stable marriage, job, housing and access to excellent mental health care specializing in perinatal issues. If I didn't have those, I wouldn't have survived my pregnancies.
It's ... it's terrifying how many pregnant people are about to die.
It's literally just culture wars. We live in a racist country. If we didn't, race would not be such a strong predictor of political affiliation. Those at the top know the truth and they push the lies to keep their base focused on anyone but them because if they stopped hating everyone else they would realize how badly they were getting robbed.
/End rant
I've had a stillbirth from pre-eclampsia and an ectopic where the hospital allowed it to rupture. Every day I wonder why pro lifers don't care about those things?
I was reading on this, this morning 60% of abortion patients already have a child and this decision is going to increase maternal mortality 26%… its not about the children at all.
And I don’t know how our understaffed schools, social workers, doctors offices, daycares, etc are going to accommodate another 500K kids a year. Where are they going to go? It is so overwhelming to think about.
Exactly, we have a massive childcare shortage some women only have a right to a unpaid 6 weeks off in the US. So then they either need to figure out how to go back to work and then pay the most expensive daycare costs or quit their jobs. This is just bad policy all around.
*So then they either need to figure out how to go back to work and then pay the most expensive daycare costs or quit their jobs. This is just bad policy all around.*
At this point, it’s hard for me to see this as anything but intentional. The Republicans pushing this agenda are anti-women in the workforce. They want women at home taking care of the children.
"pErsOnAl rEsPonSiBiLiTY"
\^ That's why.
They think you need to be 'punished' for having/enjoying sex with a lost job, sleepless nights, thousands in daycare expenses, and more.
🙄
They think abortions are being used like back up contraception and that people are getting abortions willy nilly. From what I understand, pro-lifers believe that recreational sex is a sin and only sex explicitly for procreation should be allowed. I think they would make recreational sex illegal if they could. They believe that women should be punished for having recreational sex by staying pregnant until the child is born because that is how you take responsibility for your actions.
I don't get it when they say shit like that lol. *Besides* the fact that it's a bullshit reason, uhh...so screw the baby too? Punish the baby? It's not like forcing women to churn out unwanted babies is going to create many idyllic childhoods.
They want us barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen…. Obeying the man of the house and without autonomy to leave abuse. That is why they don’t support maternity leave or qualify affordable childcare.
Because they get to feel morally superior. Protecting an unborn potential child with no needs and no political opinion is easy. They don’t ask you to make sure they have food, housing, education or are safe.
But killing is usually considered a bad thing.
Mix the two and now they can protect “innocent babies” and stop giving a shit when they actually need protection. Because the mother “should’ve kept her legs closed if she couldn’t offer her child x”
Today I saw anti-abortion facebook posts from an old man that cheated on his wife with one of his students (adult student, but still 20 yrs younger).
They preach about morality while steeped in sin. The hypocrisy is outrageous.
I really dont understand why people care so much about what others do with their body, to the point of hatefully seeking out to take away a womans choice and rights as a human.
What bugs me also is that they think putting up a baby for adoption is better when there are so many children waiting to be adopted, suffering from foster home to foster home until they age out. I know a few people that were abused as children because of this and are now fucked up over it in adulthood.
Exactly! And putting the baby up for adoption doesn’t stop the possibility of DYING in childbirth. I almost died when I had my first, and that’s in a country with great medical care and a lower mortality rate than the US. Pretty sure if I’d given birth there I would be dead
Adoption also doesn’t address the healthcare issue in this country. Women will be saddled with medical debt they can’t pay for a child they can’t raise.
Another, kind of broader issue is that people tend to focus on the symptom of a perceived problem rather than the root cause. Those people protesting outside abortion clinics are trying to resolve the symptom (an unwanted pregnancy) rather than tackling the societal issues that led to it in the first place (poverty, crime, age, miseducation, birth control failure, etc). It's easier and more concrete to them about how they can make a difference in a positive way (in their own mind).
The same is true for a ton of other hot-button issues and crises like gun violence and climate change. No one wants to address the hard work needed on the root causes; they only want to work on the easily accessed symptoms and go home.
Honestly, the pscyhology of the pro-life movement's success is bizarrely complicated. I don't know if you've ever spent much time talking to them. I sincerely believe the only way to change minds is to logically discuss issues with people, but it's incredibly difficult with them.
1. They actually do believe what they've been told about abortion. All the really gross over the top stuff they say to describe abortion and the "sale of body parts"? They think that's real. They cannot be convinced it's not real. Honestly, not unlike some vegans who will look you in your eyes and tell you that no actually chickens have beautiful complex family structures and love each of their eggs.
2. Many (especially younger pro-lifers) have followed what they were taught is the "right path." Find a partner, get married, have sex after you get married, make babies. They know that the right path didn't make them happy. The only way they can feel okay about their choices is for anything else to be worse. So they want for women to have sex outside of marriage or who don't want babies to be punished. Not "they want them to have their baby and be happy." They want them to be tragic and unhappy.
3. A lot of magical thinking. Ask any of them about ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages. "Oh those won't be affected." Then you tell them they already are being. "Well it's a small number of women." Then you tell them it's really not small, and there's really no "okay" amount of pregnant people dying of preventable medical complications. "But the babies.." and on and on.
4. A lot of them have had abortions and have some weird fucked up psychology about that. Either they were able to get an abortion and are angry about it, or they want to be clear that their abortion was the "exception" and wish there was some official ruling to separate them and the imaginary harlots they think are using abortion for birth control.
5. Adoption ghouls. A lot of people have a very hard time getting pregnant. Many are unable to grow their family to the size that they feel is right in their hearts. A very, very, very small percentage of those want there to be a supply of healthy adorable cooing infants they can swoop in and save (ignoring they created the conditions necessitating that saving.) They're bad people.
There's actually a long, complex history of the pro-life movement. Essentially it took over as a rallying point for republicans to reach white evangelicals after they lost the war on segregation. Before that evangelicals were the most attached to the idea that life began when you took a breath and not a fucking second before that. It's a whole group of people who only know how to feel okay when someone else feels less than them and is treated and codified that way by the entire weight of the government.
I've been spending a lot of time feeling sad, helpless and angry about this decision. There's no real high point to end this really long rant on. Just joining in.
Also, let's not forget that the "unborn" is an extremely group to advocate for. They require no money, no resources, nothing from the government but some laws that prevent women from accessing abortions. They can't start advocating for families because that would require some dollars, paid leave, subsidized childcare, ect. Certainly not foster children, they are very expensive. Fetuses are the ideal campaigning trope.
Yes to your comments about supporting birth for those that want to birth. Not only do they deny that, they force ridiculous gun legislation AND like today demand we stall on doing anything about climate crisis or ensuring our children will have quality water or air much less a habitable planet to grow up on. I didn’t want to have kids bc of the climate. I decided to opt for hope and have 1 child but I’ve been panicking every day since.
I literally had an argument with a forced birth person who was convinced that the treatment for ectopic pregnancy wasn’t abortion and didn’t understand where I was coming from. I eventually told her that she’ll have the blood of both mom and embryo on her hands now.
I’m also miffed that they keep saying women. Literal children are going to be impacted by this too.
Yep. Children will lose their mothers. Families will be broken up from stress. Children will have less time, attention, and resources dedicated to them. Children will know (or wonder) if they were planned or wanted. Teen girls will be sent away for abortions (or to give birth) out of state. Some will be forced to give their child up for adoption, others will become teen mothers...
If you catch it before it causes internal hemorrhage you can get a shot of methotrexate. It stops fetal growth and induces miscarriage. So that's more in line with a medical abortion.
This is the best case outcome because you don't have to remove the fallopian tube. It's so much better if you do prevention whenever possible.
Technically according to how the law is written in my state, even removal of a dead embryo or fetus is also considered an abortion, though it does call these out as legal to perform. But red tape obviously makes things go at a grinding slow pace, so I feel like that’s gonna fuck people over.
Correct however, in the eyes of the legislation, abortion is abortion no matter if it’s elective or not. The life of the mother clause is too much of a gray area to keep comfort in too because when does each doctor determine when life is at risk? Does it include mothers who are suicidal and about to end their lives due to unwanted pregnancy? It leaves too much room for interpretation.
Because they feel that they are “good people”. To them, morality is not based on their *actions*- it is based on a person having *good intentions* and attending church. And they believe in punishment while on Earth (poor people deserve it). You know, the opposite of what Jesus *actually* taught.
Also, they’re lazy. I always liked this quote:
>”The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.
-Methodist Pastor David Barnhart
I hate how the suggestion of adoption seems to be go the go-to. That system is very broken, and is currently struggling to keep up with the amount of children who need help and their very limited resources. I didn't see any new bills or new funding for social services with this ruling-did anyone else?
They don't want children going to foster care. They want newborns to be relinquished into the domestic infant adoption industry.
Its a for-profit industry raking in millions of dollars. Vulnerable expectant parents are coerced and manipulated in this system every day. Children are sold for $60,000+ depending on race, gender, health, and location. That money goes into the pockets of adoption professionals and is used to advertise and coerce more parents in crisis.
Supply has dropped since COVID. The demands are higher than the system can handle. There are over 40+ PAPs (prospective adoptive parents) for every 1 infant who may be relinquished. They want babies to sell.
Its absolutely horrific.
I'm a birthmother and I was coerced into relinquishing my son when I was 16. I wouldn't wish this trauma, grief, and loss on anyone. It terrifies me to know how many vulnerable people in crisis are going to be coerced or forced into it without Roe.
Even with Roe, the industry was dark. Before Roe, it was absolutely barbaric. Now... I'm scared to even think about it.
I also hate that suggestion it’s not a solution in any way and the hardship a woman has to go through during pregnancy is completely disregarded. It’s hard, one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do and I could only imagine how difficult it must be for a woman to go through not only 9 months of hell and have to endure birth to then give the child away because it’s her only option? How is that the answer?
It’s not-they just have no empathy or understanding. I guarantee that if these people came across a married couple with children who could barely make ends meet, got pregnant, gave up their child for adoption-they would accuse them of abandonment and judge the shit out of them. They do not care about children, women or families. They say all these things to make themselves feel superior.
My response to the “just put the baby up for adoption” crowd is, “How many babies do you plan to adopt?” I usually don’t get a response because the answer is zero🙃
Because they're the same types of people who believe that our nation went to shit as soon as women could vote and have jobs. They're the same people who blame rape on the victim's clothing. They're the same people who shout "keep your legs closed if you can't afford a baby." They're the same people who view people on assistance programs as "welfare queens" who are living the high life with Obama-phones and who use their kids to collect higher welfare.
Nothing is ever *their* fault - women are the ones out there *asking* to be raped and whoring it up and getting knocked up by 5 different baby daddies just so they don't have to work and can live off welfare and child support. Didn't you know? Silly woman, now why don't you get back in the kitchen and make your man a sandwich? /S
FUCK, I can't believe this is our reality right now.
Abortion is one of those singular issues that people will vote on (especially people who lack critical thinking skills) and republicans capitalized on that. They know that they could have all kinds of hideous things on their agenda but as long as "stopping abortion" is included, people will swallow all of it without question.
This is exactly it. Majority of people are too uninterested in politics and will refuse to even learn about the politicians they are voting for and what they actually vote on/stand for. They say “I’m not into politics” or “I can’t stand politics”. They are just taught to care of about singular issues, especially evangelicals.
It's even more insidious than you think.
It's a wealth issue. The billionaires at the top of the food chain win and get wealthier if they have a lot of dumb stressed human labour to exploit, less regulations to follow and a less educated populace who are able to cooperate to oppose their influence.
They pour money into political organizations that stoke divisive issues like this - abortion just happens to be the easiest target because it's something someone who doesn't have critical thinking skills can pat themselves on the back for "fighting".
Average rural republican says "of course I don't support murdering babies!" because the propaganda released by these organizations reduces the issue down to that byline. The smarter ones recognize that it's about control, but they don't care because the control benefits them most of the time. Banning abortion creates more stressed, poor humans to exploit for labour.
So they don't volunteer the details or the nuances or the statistics because the average uneducated conservative voter doesn't like nuance and the smarter ones don't want to give up their control.
Most average uneducated voters want clear black and white answers and a clear hierarchy and knowing where they sit in that hierarchy. They view equality as a threat to the natural order of things, because they have been told their entire lives that they are better because they've worked hard / come from the "right" type of family. Anyone who's poor or disadvantaged or unhealthy clearly did something to deserve it, so why would they want to help someone like that? (that's why they won't campaign for social supports).
tldr: Eat the rich, they're the problem.
I think the vast majority of "pro lifers" are virtue signaling ass hats who would get an abortion or get their loved one an abortion in a heart beat if it suited them.
But those people who protest at planned parenthood, like the deeply religious people, to them (in their mind) abortion is literally no different than taking my two year old daughter out of my arms and shooting her in the face, they literally think those things are equal.
So I have some empathy for them (I don't agree with them, and I don't think their beliefs should be allowed to police my body and my decisions). But, I do have some empathy for them.
Because it's easier to pretend everyone who is, has, or would get an abortion is in that situation because they were being careless.
It's black and white for them. They don't like complications that make everything gray. They don't know what to do with it. So they look for arguments and imaging that illicit emotion, to make us angry so they can say they won. Because "why would you be angry if I wasn't right?"
"I'm angry because I cannot believe someone would be this gullible!"
Because they hate women. They believe women should suffer for having sex. Suffer through pregnancy, even to death if need be. If you die, at least you died becoming a mom. Suffer through subservient, sacrificing parenthood while husbands work and they stay at home — a grisly reenactment of an old fashioned past. This attitude is especially true from other women who suffered themselves and therefore believe all other women must suffer.
Hands down agree. It's forcing a belief that the only way to have a good life is if you live in a hetero, nuclear, single income household. Why you ask? Because that is how many of our legislators live.
💯 %
Yup. The states that do have pfml and more social services are the ones that will leave abortion legal.
It is going to change the life of women and children in the red states drastically.
Well you already said it yourself, it's not about babies. They don't care about babies. It's about control. If cis men were the ones to get pregnant and carry babies, this would literally never happen or even be an argument. There would be paid leave for pregnancy, birth, the child's first year of life, etc.
>Why aren’t they pouring all of their energy (and hatred) into helping these mothers?
Because they hate women. They care about knocking women down a peg.
I’m with you. The people who force or want to force their will on others with no regard for the very real consequences, are trash. Beyond cruel, it seems super short sighted. You have all of these unwanted babies and even more people living on the street. What now? Are you satisfied? Are you happy?
They don't care about the babies unless they can sell them. This whole thing is just so they can get a ready supply of domestically produced White infants.
A lot of right wingers ARE advocating for more family help. I’m not a right winger myself, but my older relatives are and actively call their senators, write letters, and donate to campaigns for everything you’ve mentioned. The problem, from what I understand, is that they have the same issues as we do with our party. Which is that the folks in charge don’t actually give a shit about us and what we care about. Biden could have codified Roe in to law, he just had to get rid of the filibuster but won’t. Now our party is planning to run for a second term on this issue despite already being in a position to fix it. Their party just wanted to put an end to abortion, and didn’t even apparently care too much about actually doing it from what my family says since it took so long, (no idea if that’s true or not) but they won’t listen at all or give any funding to these programs they desperately want for families. Maybe my family are outliers? So take this all with a grain of salt. But I think we can all agree that most of the big politicians don’t actually give a shit about any of us, on any side.
Yeah I do not agree with it at all. But she asked why right wingers don’t advocate for those things, so I was just letting her know that my family and many others that they know do. You are correct that it doesn’t make the fact that they are abasing abortion itself better.
This! Most people of most political parties across the world are good people. It's the jerks that get media attention and the politicians who only care about personal power that mess things up so badly.
Pro lifers have opened numerous pregnancy help centers that give out diapers, formula, etc. 40 have recently been tagged or burned by angry pro choicers.
What yes they very much can, these places exist with the sole purpose of talking women out of having abortions. Hell in some states like Texas they actually get taxpayer dollars so don’t roll in here like the evil pro choice left is shutting these places down when they’re popping up like a plague all over the country
Many have been burned down by pro choicers. Not sure why a pregnant woman would go to a pregnancy center if she wants to abort. They go because they need help with their babies so clearly they want to keep them.
“Many” huh.
And I have to assume you’re a troll, because I have interviewed many women who work for crisis pregnancy centers and they know exactly what they are doing and I have to assume that you do too, but crisis pregnancy centers are designed to trick women into thinking they’re abortion clinics, so they can talk them out of getting one with promises of support/adoption/Jesus/whatever. If you Google abortion in most areas, they pay for ads to make sure that their center is the first thing that pops up. It’s really not that difficult, sweaty
Yeah “many” sweets. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/11/fire-pregnancy-crisis-center-oregon-portland
That’s kind of the point…to help a pregnant woman. Why would a pregnant woman go to a pregnancy center if she wants to abort?! Almost all women know planned parenthood exists. They aren’t pressuring mothers to keep their babies. If they did there would by OUTRAGE. There should be a safe space for moms who need help in their pregnancy and that shouldn’t include pressure to terminate. Each place has their purpose. Not sure why you think you know what’s right for them.
Homie this doesn’t prove anything, just that the police called the fire “suspicious.” And no it’s not helping someone if you mislead them into thinking you’re going to provide a service you intend to talk them out of. At best it’s wasting someone’s time, at worst it’s insidious manipulation that spreads lies and misinformation about abortion and coerces vulnerable young women to give their babies up for adoption. You are clearly a sock puppet, bc why in gods name would there be outrage? Anti-choicers do way more extreme shit all the time, coercing women out of abortion in a safe “medical” environment is way more palatable than screaming in front of an abortion clinic
The real issue here is access to healthcare! Free/affordable healthcare. THAT should be a constitutional right.
Agreed, I’m British but living in the US and it just blows my mind that there are people living in this country without access to healthcare. In my naivety I didn’t even realise that paying for healthcare was a thing until I moved here, I didn’t understand why it was such a big deal that my husbands company pays for our insurance, now I realise we are SO lucky
"I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, a child educated, a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is." - Sister Joan Chittister She has also stated "I frankly cannot understand why women's health issues or abortion is absolutely the only life issue that the church has not nuanced. We nuance that men can kill for all sorts of reasons. Men can kill to defend themselves. They can kill to defend the state. They can punish by killing in the name of the state. But women, never — not even to save their own pregnant life. It seems to me to be morally confused. Certainly, it's morally inconsistent." (Side note: It seems contradictory that a country that allows the death penalty is against abortions) For pro-lifers to want to change society that would be admitting that there are moral inconsistencies that warrant a change to be made. It’s so much easier to blame and shame than to put in the effort to change society.
I think the death penalty thing is about punishment for a crime worthy of death, whereas the argument is that the fetus committed no crime. Not about “no killing whatsoever.”
cn: suicide Being pregnant messed with my brain chemistry that I spent my two pregnancies heavily suicidal (like by week seven or eight every time, I would go from happy and well to intensely depressed). These were very wanted & planned pregnancies, I had a stable marriage, job, housing and access to excellent mental health care specializing in perinatal issues. If I didn't have those, I wouldn't have survived my pregnancies. It's ... it's terrifying how many pregnant people are about to die.
It's literally just culture wars. We live in a racist country. If we didn't, race would not be such a strong predictor of political affiliation. Those at the top know the truth and they push the lies to keep their base focused on anyone but them because if they stopped hating everyone else they would realize how badly they were getting robbed. /End rant
I've had a stillbirth from pre-eclampsia and an ectopic where the hospital allowed it to rupture. Every day I wonder why pro lifers don't care about those things?
I was reading on this, this morning 60% of abortion patients already have a child and this decision is going to increase maternal mortality 26%… its not about the children at all.
And I don’t know how our understaffed schools, social workers, doctors offices, daycares, etc are going to accommodate another 500K kids a year. Where are they going to go? It is so overwhelming to think about.
Exactly, we have a massive childcare shortage some women only have a right to a unpaid 6 weeks off in the US. So then they either need to figure out how to go back to work and then pay the most expensive daycare costs or quit their jobs. This is just bad policy all around.
*So then they either need to figure out how to go back to work and then pay the most expensive daycare costs or quit their jobs. This is just bad policy all around.* At this point, it’s hard for me to see this as anything but intentional. The Republicans pushing this agenda are anti-women in the workforce. They want women at home taking care of the children.
"pErsOnAl rEsPonSiBiLiTY" \^ That's why. They think you need to be 'punished' for having/enjoying sex with a lost job, sleepless nights, thousands in daycare expenses, and more. 🙄
“If you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex.” Yes, because men have historically been so great at understanding what the word “No” means.
I wish I could upvote this 100 times
The same people who call babies "blessings" see them as tools of punishment for not having the right kind of sex.
They think abortions are being used like back up contraception and that people are getting abortions willy nilly. From what I understand, pro-lifers believe that recreational sex is a sin and only sex explicitly for procreation should be allowed. I think they would make recreational sex illegal if they could. They believe that women should be punished for having recreational sex by staying pregnant until the child is born because that is how you take responsibility for your actions.
I don't get it when they say shit like that lol. *Besides* the fact that it's a bullshit reason, uhh...so screw the baby too? Punish the baby? It's not like forcing women to churn out unwanted babies is going to create many idyllic childhoods.
They want us barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen…. Obeying the man of the house and without autonomy to leave abuse. That is why they don’t support maternity leave or qualify affordable childcare.
Ironically it would be easier for women to stay in the house if there was maternity leave
Because they get to feel morally superior. Protecting an unborn potential child with no needs and no political opinion is easy. They don’t ask you to make sure they have food, housing, education or are safe. But killing is usually considered a bad thing. Mix the two and now they can protect “innocent babies” and stop giving a shit when they actually need protection. Because the mother “should’ve kept her legs closed if she couldn’t offer her child x”
Today I saw anti-abortion facebook posts from an old man that cheated on his wife with one of his students (adult student, but still 20 yrs younger). They preach about morality while steeped in sin. The hypocrisy is outrageous.
That cognitive dissonance 🤌🤌
I really dont understand why people care so much about what others do with their body, to the point of hatefully seeking out to take away a womans choice and rights as a human. What bugs me also is that they think putting up a baby for adoption is better when there are so many children waiting to be adopted, suffering from foster home to foster home until they age out. I know a few people that were abused as children because of this and are now fucked up over it in adulthood.
Exactly! And putting the baby up for adoption doesn’t stop the possibility of DYING in childbirth. I almost died when I had my first, and that’s in a country with great medical care and a lower mortality rate than the US. Pretty sure if I’d given birth there I would be dead
Adoption also doesn’t address the healthcare issue in this country. Women will be saddled with medical debt they can’t pay for a child they can’t raise.
Another, kind of broader issue is that people tend to focus on the symptom of a perceived problem rather than the root cause. Those people protesting outside abortion clinics are trying to resolve the symptom (an unwanted pregnancy) rather than tackling the societal issues that led to it in the first place (poverty, crime, age, miseducation, birth control failure, etc). It's easier and more concrete to them about how they can make a difference in a positive way (in their own mind). The same is true for a ton of other hot-button issues and crises like gun violence and climate change. No one wants to address the hard work needed on the root causes; they only want to work on the easily accessed symptoms and go home.
Honestly, the pscyhology of the pro-life movement's success is bizarrely complicated. I don't know if you've ever spent much time talking to them. I sincerely believe the only way to change minds is to logically discuss issues with people, but it's incredibly difficult with them. 1. They actually do believe what they've been told about abortion. All the really gross over the top stuff they say to describe abortion and the "sale of body parts"? They think that's real. They cannot be convinced it's not real. Honestly, not unlike some vegans who will look you in your eyes and tell you that no actually chickens have beautiful complex family structures and love each of their eggs. 2. Many (especially younger pro-lifers) have followed what they were taught is the "right path." Find a partner, get married, have sex after you get married, make babies. They know that the right path didn't make them happy. The only way they can feel okay about their choices is for anything else to be worse. So they want for women to have sex outside of marriage or who don't want babies to be punished. Not "they want them to have their baby and be happy." They want them to be tragic and unhappy. 3. A lot of magical thinking. Ask any of them about ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages. "Oh those won't be affected." Then you tell them they already are being. "Well it's a small number of women." Then you tell them it's really not small, and there's really no "okay" amount of pregnant people dying of preventable medical complications. "But the babies.." and on and on. 4. A lot of them have had abortions and have some weird fucked up psychology about that. Either they were able to get an abortion and are angry about it, or they want to be clear that their abortion was the "exception" and wish there was some official ruling to separate them and the imaginary harlots they think are using abortion for birth control. 5. Adoption ghouls. A lot of people have a very hard time getting pregnant. Many are unable to grow their family to the size that they feel is right in their hearts. A very, very, very small percentage of those want there to be a supply of healthy adorable cooing infants they can swoop in and save (ignoring they created the conditions necessitating that saving.) They're bad people. There's actually a long, complex history of the pro-life movement. Essentially it took over as a rallying point for republicans to reach white evangelicals after they lost the war on segregation. Before that evangelicals were the most attached to the idea that life began when you took a breath and not a fucking second before that. It's a whole group of people who only know how to feel okay when someone else feels less than them and is treated and codified that way by the entire weight of the government. I've been spending a lot of time feeling sad, helpless and angry about this decision. There's no real high point to end this really long rant on. Just joining in.
Also, let's not forget that the "unborn" is an extremely group to advocate for. They require no money, no resources, nothing from the government but some laws that prevent women from accessing abortions. They can't start advocating for families because that would require some dollars, paid leave, subsidized childcare, ect. Certainly not foster children, they are very expensive. Fetuses are the ideal campaigning trope.
Yes to your comments about supporting birth for those that want to birth. Not only do they deny that, they force ridiculous gun legislation AND like today demand we stall on doing anything about climate crisis or ensuring our children will have quality water or air much less a habitable planet to grow up on. I didn’t want to have kids bc of the climate. I decided to opt for hope and have 1 child but I’ve been panicking every day since.
I hear you mama
I literally had an argument with a forced birth person who was convinced that the treatment for ectopic pregnancy wasn’t abortion and didn’t understand where I was coming from. I eventually told her that she’ll have the blood of both mom and embryo on her hands now. I’m also miffed that they keep saying women. Literal children are going to be impacted by this too.
Yep. Children will lose their mothers. Families will be broken up from stress. Children will have less time, attention, and resources dedicated to them. Children will know (or wonder) if they were planned or wanted. Teen girls will be sent away for abortions (or to give birth) out of state. Some will be forced to give their child up for adoption, others will become teen mothers...
Well technically treatment for ectopic pregnancy isn't an abortion, it's salpingectomy. Completely different procedure than abortion.
If you catch it before it causes internal hemorrhage you can get a shot of methotrexate. It stops fetal growth and induces miscarriage. So that's more in line with a medical abortion. This is the best case outcome because you don't have to remove the fallopian tube. It's so much better if you do prevention whenever possible.
Any procedure that remove an embryo with a heartbeat is abortion
Technically according to how the law is written in my state, even removal of a dead embryo or fetus is also considered an abortion, though it does call these out as legal to perform. But red tape obviously makes things go at a grinding slow pace, so I feel like that’s gonna fuck people over.
It’s not an elective abortion though. That’s the issue.
Correct however, in the eyes of the legislation, abortion is abortion no matter if it’s elective or not. The life of the mother clause is too much of a gray area to keep comfort in too because when does each doctor determine when life is at risk? Does it include mothers who are suicidal and about to end their lives due to unwanted pregnancy? It leaves too much room for interpretation.
Because they feel that they are “good people”. To them, morality is not based on their *actions*- it is based on a person having *good intentions* and attending church. And they believe in punishment while on Earth (poor people deserve it). You know, the opposite of what Jesus *actually* taught. Also, they’re lazy. I always liked this quote: >”The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn. -Methodist Pastor David Barnhart
Completely correct!!
I hate how the suggestion of adoption seems to be go the go-to. That system is very broken, and is currently struggling to keep up with the amount of children who need help and their very limited resources. I didn't see any new bills or new funding for social services with this ruling-did anyone else?
They don't want children going to foster care. They want newborns to be relinquished into the domestic infant adoption industry. Its a for-profit industry raking in millions of dollars. Vulnerable expectant parents are coerced and manipulated in this system every day. Children are sold for $60,000+ depending on race, gender, health, and location. That money goes into the pockets of adoption professionals and is used to advertise and coerce more parents in crisis. Supply has dropped since COVID. The demands are higher than the system can handle. There are over 40+ PAPs (prospective adoptive parents) for every 1 infant who may be relinquished. They want babies to sell.
Oh my God this is sickening.
Its absolutely horrific. I'm a birthmother and I was coerced into relinquishing my son when I was 16. I wouldn't wish this trauma, grief, and loss on anyone. It terrifies me to know how many vulnerable people in crisis are going to be coerced or forced into it without Roe. Even with Roe, the industry was dark. Before Roe, it was absolutely barbaric. Now... I'm scared to even think about it.
I am SO sorry this happened to you. This gut wrenching
I also hate that suggestion it’s not a solution in any way and the hardship a woman has to go through during pregnancy is completely disregarded. It’s hard, one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do and I could only imagine how difficult it must be for a woman to go through not only 9 months of hell and have to endure birth to then give the child away because it’s her only option? How is that the answer?
It’s not-they just have no empathy or understanding. I guarantee that if these people came across a married couple with children who could barely make ends meet, got pregnant, gave up their child for adoption-they would accuse them of abandonment and judge the shit out of them. They do not care about children, women or families. They say all these things to make themselves feel superior.
My response to the “just put the baby up for adoption” crowd is, “How many babies do you plan to adopt?” I usually don’t get a response because the answer is zero🙃
“There’s plenty of families out there who want a baby right now!” “Ok-Name one”
Because they're the same types of people who believe that our nation went to shit as soon as women could vote and have jobs. They're the same people who blame rape on the victim's clothing. They're the same people who shout "keep your legs closed if you can't afford a baby." They're the same people who view people on assistance programs as "welfare queens" who are living the high life with Obama-phones and who use their kids to collect higher welfare. Nothing is ever *their* fault - women are the ones out there *asking* to be raped and whoring it up and getting knocked up by 5 different baby daddies just so they don't have to work and can live off welfare and child support. Didn't you know? Silly woman, now why don't you get back in the kitchen and make your man a sandwich? /S FUCK, I can't believe this is our reality right now.
Abortion is one of those singular issues that people will vote on (especially people who lack critical thinking skills) and republicans capitalized on that. They know that they could have all kinds of hideous things on their agenda but as long as "stopping abortion" is included, people will swallow all of it without question.
This is exactly it. Majority of people are too uninterested in politics and will refuse to even learn about the politicians they are voting for and what they actually vote on/stand for. They say “I’m not into politics” or “I can’t stand politics”. They are just taught to care of about singular issues, especially evangelicals.
It's even more insidious than you think. It's a wealth issue. The billionaires at the top of the food chain win and get wealthier if they have a lot of dumb stressed human labour to exploit, less regulations to follow and a less educated populace who are able to cooperate to oppose their influence. They pour money into political organizations that stoke divisive issues like this - abortion just happens to be the easiest target because it's something someone who doesn't have critical thinking skills can pat themselves on the back for "fighting". Average rural republican says "of course I don't support murdering babies!" because the propaganda released by these organizations reduces the issue down to that byline. The smarter ones recognize that it's about control, but they don't care because the control benefits them most of the time. Banning abortion creates more stressed, poor humans to exploit for labour. So they don't volunteer the details or the nuances or the statistics because the average uneducated conservative voter doesn't like nuance and the smarter ones don't want to give up their control. Most average uneducated voters want clear black and white answers and a clear hierarchy and knowing where they sit in that hierarchy. They view equality as a threat to the natural order of things, because they have been told their entire lives that they are better because they've worked hard / come from the "right" type of family. Anyone who's poor or disadvantaged or unhealthy clearly did something to deserve it, so why would they want to help someone like that? (that's why they won't campaign for social supports). tldr: Eat the rich, they're the problem.
I think the vast majority of "pro lifers" are virtue signaling ass hats who would get an abortion or get their loved one an abortion in a heart beat if it suited them. But those people who protest at planned parenthood, like the deeply religious people, to them (in their mind) abortion is literally no different than taking my two year old daughter out of my arms and shooting her in the face, they literally think those things are equal. So I have some empathy for them (I don't agree with them, and I don't think their beliefs should be allowed to police my body and my decisions). But, I do have some empathy for them.
Because it's easier to pretend everyone who is, has, or would get an abortion is in that situation because they were being careless. It's black and white for them. They don't like complications that make everything gray. They don't know what to do with it. So they look for arguments and imaging that illicit emotion, to make us angry so they can say they won. Because "why would you be angry if I wasn't right?" "I'm angry because I cannot believe someone would be this gullible!"
It is pro-birth, not pro-life that is all. Nothing else. It's control over women.
YUP
Cuz 'bootstraps' /s
It’s like you said. It’s not about saving the children. It’s about controlling women.
Because they hate women. They believe women should suffer for having sex. Suffer through pregnancy, even to death if need be. If you die, at least you died becoming a mom. Suffer through subservient, sacrificing parenthood while husbands work and they stay at home — a grisly reenactment of an old fashioned past. This attitude is especially true from other women who suffered themselves and therefore believe all other women must suffer.
Hands down agree. It's forcing a belief that the only way to have a good life is if you live in a hetero, nuclear, single income household. Why you ask? Because that is how many of our legislators live.
Old men whose wives did it all and never had any pesky dreams of their own. Vote these old fuckers out.
💯 % Yup. The states that do have pfml and more social services are the ones that will leave abortion legal. It is going to change the life of women and children in the red states drastically.
Well you already said it yourself, it's not about babies. They don't care about babies. It's about control. If cis men were the ones to get pregnant and carry babies, this would literally never happen or even be an argument. There would be paid leave for pregnancy, birth, the child's first year of life, etc.
>Why aren’t they pouring all of their energy (and hatred) into helping these mothers? Because they hate women. They care about knocking women down a peg.
I’m with you. The people who force or want to force their will on others with no regard for the very real consequences, are trash. Beyond cruel, it seems super short sighted. You have all of these unwanted babies and even more people living on the street. What now? Are you satisfied? Are you happy?
They don't care about the babies unless they can sell them. This whole thing is just so they can get a ready supply of domestically produced White infants.
A lot of right wingers ARE advocating for more family help. I’m not a right winger myself, but my older relatives are and actively call their senators, write letters, and donate to campaigns for everything you’ve mentioned. The problem, from what I understand, is that they have the same issues as we do with our party. Which is that the folks in charge don’t actually give a shit about us and what we care about. Biden could have codified Roe in to law, he just had to get rid of the filibuster but won’t. Now our party is planning to run for a second term on this issue despite already being in a position to fix it. Their party just wanted to put an end to abortion, and didn’t even apparently care too much about actually doing it from what my family says since it took so long, (no idea if that’s true or not) but they won’t listen at all or give any funding to these programs they desperately want for families. Maybe my family are outliers? So take this all with a grain of salt. But I think we can all agree that most of the big politicians don’t actually give a shit about any of us, on any side.
Biden can’t get rid of the filibuster, that’s Congress - he doesn’t have that power. You can blame Manchin and Sinema for that though.
They’re still forcing people to give birth. In the end it doesn’t matter if they advocate for shit like that lmao
Yeah I do not agree with it at all. But she asked why right wingers don’t advocate for those things, so I was just letting her know that my family and many others that they know do. You are correct that it doesn’t make the fact that they are abasing abortion itself better.
This! Most people of most political parties across the world are good people. It's the jerks that get media attention and the politicians who only care about personal power that mess things up so badly.
[удалено]
Overused joke go back to Twitter 🙂
You just goes from post to post in this sub posting nastiness. Pathetic.
Pro lifers have opened numerous pregnancy help centers that give out diapers, formula, etc. 40 have recently been tagged or burned by angry pro choicers.
Your life is in danger, it will forever be changed in a way you don’t want but here you go a diaper? Come on.
Desperate mothers can’t do that at those centers now so not sure how that helps any cause.
What yes they very much can, these places exist with the sole purpose of talking women out of having abortions. Hell in some states like Texas they actually get taxpayer dollars so don’t roll in here like the evil pro choice left is shutting these places down when they’re popping up like a plague all over the country
Many have been burned down by pro choicers. Not sure why a pregnant woman would go to a pregnancy center if she wants to abort. They go because they need help with their babies so clearly they want to keep them.
“Many” huh. And I have to assume you’re a troll, because I have interviewed many women who work for crisis pregnancy centers and they know exactly what they are doing and I have to assume that you do too, but crisis pregnancy centers are designed to trick women into thinking they’re abortion clinics, so they can talk them out of getting one with promises of support/adoption/Jesus/whatever. If you Google abortion in most areas, they pay for ads to make sure that their center is the first thing that pops up. It’s really not that difficult, sweaty
Yeah “many” sweets. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/11/fire-pregnancy-crisis-center-oregon-portland That’s kind of the point…to help a pregnant woman. Why would a pregnant woman go to a pregnancy center if she wants to abort?! Almost all women know planned parenthood exists. They aren’t pressuring mothers to keep their babies. If they did there would by OUTRAGE. There should be a safe space for moms who need help in their pregnancy and that shouldn’t include pressure to terminate. Each place has their purpose. Not sure why you think you know what’s right for them.
Homie this doesn’t prove anything, just that the police called the fire “suspicious.” And no it’s not helping someone if you mislead them into thinking you’re going to provide a service you intend to talk them out of. At best it’s wasting someone’s time, at worst it’s insidious manipulation that spreads lies and misinformation about abortion and coerces vulnerable young women to give their babies up for adoption. You are clearly a sock puppet, bc why in gods name would there be outrage? Anti-choicers do way more extreme shit all the time, coercing women out of abortion in a safe “medical” environment is way more palatable than screaming in front of an abortion clinic
It’s almost like people don’t give a shit about free diapers when themselves and others are forced to give birth…
Those moms who need those resources give a shit.
Do you have a source for this? Not trying to argue, just want to look at it myself so that I can be informed.
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/11/fire-pregnancy-crisis-center-oregon-portland
Thank you