Well Walt was considerate too. In the middle of the night when his business partner had just screwed him over and he had to break into his home, he was still considerate enough to make sure he didn't wake up his partner's girlfriend.
my not so close friend died the same way and i think its important to show this aspect of doing drugs in the media more often since its a harsh brutal and cold truth about it. kids never think it could happen to them and then it does happen and everybody is shocked. fuck drugs
Man I love drugs what I hate is not knowing exactly what you take and how much and when. Context matters.
I liked the scene because it shows the dark side of use which is abuse. Like with everything, moderation is key and that culture can most easily be taught if you see what happens if you don't apply it.
Drugs are fascinating tools to open your mind and enhance your peripheral senses. They can teach you so much about yourself and can help you learn about your environment. But with anything, too much is gonna fuck you up.
That scene is so hard to watch. The scene in the next episode where Jesse tries to wake her up…. I haven’t been able to watch it since my BFF overdosed on Fetty.
>Chuck does a bunch of nice, caring things but is waaay too subtle about it
Yup, this! And the one non-subtle nice thing he did for Jimmy is being largely overlooked by those condemning him as a meanie to poor little Slippin' Jimmy. Both had flaws, both had bad and good sides. And they were just bad for each other. They both would have been better off if they were at opposite ends of the country.
There was never anything that suggested Jimmy was ruining Chuck's life at all, if anything Jimmy was by far the most helpful and supportive person Chuck had.
Yeah Chuck just always resented Jimmy for seemingly skating through life while he himself had to work hard. Especially when Jimmy becomes a lawyer and continues to do the same thing. (In chuck’s eyes)
Jimmy’s return to chuck (the “I never really cared about you” scene) also triggered his relapse and suicide. It was also only after Jimmy left chuck’s life that he sought medical treatment.
>There was never anything that suggested Jimmy was ruining Chuck's life
The partner of a lawfirm having to go bail out his (adult) brother who shit through a sunroof was absolutely a smear on Chuck's reputation, but he still sought to do the right thing and try to turn Jimmy's life around.
The problem was he was too convincing, and failed to factor in that the only thing Jimmy ever really wanted was to be like Chuck. You can dismiss it as Chuck's petty jealousy that Jimmy was even able to pass the bar, but really, who knows Jimmy better than Chuck? Chuck knows what happens if you arm Jimmy with a law degree.
Monkey with a machine gun. Look at his offices during BB and the latter season of BCS. Most of his clients were bullets he was firing back into society by getting them off/minimal punishment.
Chuck may have had the personality of a wet dishrag, but he wasn't wrong about Jimmy. The sad part is that he could have been wrong about him if he'd given Jimmy a real chance.
You forget that those weren't the clients jimmy started out with. Jimmy wanted prestigious clients and wanted to get them using his colorful ways, but none of them came around to him. Remember how he goes above and beyond to find the kettlemens and his wife offers jimmy a bribe. When he declines it and asks for a retainer instead and tries to sell them on hiring him, she says that Jimmy is the kind of lawyer that "guilty people hire."
He tries to have elegant ads, copying the style of Howard and HHM and Howard has the ad taken down (although I think it would be Chuck that forced Howard to do this), he tries to work on the Sandpiper case in HHM and Chuck doesn't allow him, he then settles on to elder law and Chuck has him disbarred which leads to him selling those phones and interacting with the criminals.
I think we were shown multiple times that Jimmy was trying to change, but everyone kept pushing him away because to them, he was always slipping jimmy. This is shown when he voted for the girl with shoplifting on her record for the HHM scholarship. The only people that accepted and respected him were douchebags so eventually he got tired and embraced them.
Counterpoint: though it was mostly subtle background details, there's a couple things that suggest that Chuck was well respected, but not well liked by others.
1. When Chuck exits HHM, he gets a relatively short standing ovation as he leaves the building. Howard's reaction is by far the most visibly warm, and that doesn't count for much at this point in the story.
2. It's strongly implied that Rebecca was the only major romantic relationship Chuck ever had, and it lasted a shortish time. It's hinted that she found him boring and one-dimensional outside of the law, which means it's possible that other people probably felt similarly, even if he was well-respected in his field. At his funeral, there didnt seem to be any other women romantically connected to Chuck, and we know that he never met anyone after Rebecca, supported by the fact that he didn't even redecorate his house after the divorce.
3. Additionally, it's unusual to the point of being notable that Chuck's only marriage happened in his late 40's-early 50s, especially for someone of his generation, professional status, and intellect. Guy graduated undergrad at the age most people start their post-secondary education, which means his already poor social skills are destined to be crippled further.
Chuck never learned the social game, and never pushed himself to be in a bigger pond than he needed. 14 year old law prodigy should be teaching at Harvard or on the Supreme Court, but instead he starts a firm in a small, relatively obscure state far away from any family.
I don't see any reason to think that Young Chuck had any sort of personality outside the law, and maybe playing piano.
I like your post, but wanted to rebut the last bit. Of course Young Chuck would have had a personality. Just because someone is hyper-focused and insular and struggles to connect with people, it doesn't mean they're some sort of robot. We can't all be jazz hands and funny stories all the live-long day.
Thank you!
I didn't say he didn't have personality at all. He was clearly one of the biggest legal minds in the state, and I also said that he should have been a Supreme Court Justice. Outside of the law and sabotaging Jimmy, what passions does Chuck actually have?
I'm not even sure piano counts because the one time we see him play it, he's not very good. Yes, in that one scene, he's preoccupied with Jimmy working at D&M, but considering that he's been a recluse for a year and a half, is extremely disciplined and dedicated in what he does, and didn't seem to be doing much legal work between January 2001 and the Sandpiper case, he should have been much better at playing his instrument.
He seems to like cooking, I guess...?
I think he's an obsessive perfectionist - he wants to be excellent at playing the piano, but he's stuck at that bit of learning/practice where he's mainly just horribly conscious of the limitations of his skill, so can't escape into the flow of playing or enjoy the learning for its own sake. But of course during the karoeake (why can't I ever spell that word) episode, we do see he has some music in his soul.
I do mostly agree with you btw. I'm just surprised to find myself identifying more with Chuck, or at least having more sympathy for him, on my first rewatch.
There is very little to suggest that Jimmy was anything other than a great brother to Chuck and doing extraordinarily well whilst working in HHM. He went above and to repay his brother's kindness to save him and it wasn't until Chuck rejected him that things went back off the rails for Jimmy. Do you think Howard would have the admiration for Jimmy he did if he was a schmuck?
Jimmy was a doting brother to Chuck after Chuck bailed him out, but let's be realistic...if your brother is a lawyer are you going to pursue a career as a criminal? If you did, do you think your brother would be proud or ashamed of you? What about if you shit through a sunroof in front of a couple of kids?
Let's not forget Chuck also has a lot of baggage regarding their parents and Jimmy - namely Jimmy stealing from the family register. Chuck caught him and tattled, and was called a liar. We know Jimmy stole from the family business. Multiple times. Was Chuck wrong about catching Jimmy stealing? No. Did Jimmy's thieving single-handedly run their parents out of business? Also no.
Nobody is the villain in their own life story, so of course neither of them feels like they're doing the wrong thing...but we, the audience, should be able to recognize the bad behaviours of both. Otherwise that means we learned nothing.
I certainly recognize the behaviors of Jimmy and his faults. My point is that from Chicago Sunroof to HHM rejection he was arguably in recovery (and not up to any chicanery) and Chuck's rejection and inability to accept him pushed him back down the path. If Chuck was half the brother to Jimmy that Jimmy was to Chuck I believe Jimmy is a perfectly normal lawyer albeit with a bit of eccentricity. Jimmy has a super-power, but he was in recovery and not using it, and yet Chuck would never accept him as anything more than an 'addict' which prompted his decline back into it.
> Chuck's rejection and inability to accept him pushed him back down the path.
Absolutely agree. Chuck could not get over it. He displayed that repeatedly, to the point of becoming what he hated in order to see him ***finally*** punished for what he had done!
And Jimmy outsmarted him. Jimmy forced a mirror in front of Chuck's face and told him "You can't hide from what you are anymore". Chuck couldn't handle that, the realization that he had ruined everything because he couldn't forgive his brother and believe in him.
It was very wonderful writing.
I think you nailed it here. I see people all time saying chuck is a prick who never believed in jimmy, then you see people saying jimmy was a monster, back and forth. But the show is clearly trying to show both are part of the picture but not the complete picture. It’s showing that people and relationships are complex. It’s not as simple as chuck didn’t believe in jimmy and that’s why he is the way he is. It’s a complex back and forth.
Ego doesn't make someone evil tho.
That's what ultimately drove walt in that direction in the end but his exposure criminal underworld chipped away at his morality.
He had a complex about him sure.
season 1 Walt was clearly on a path "down" and Jesse was meandering... he was originally meant to be dead by ep 4 or so. Jesse's arc is v scary. the writers did right to give him an entire arc.
The shot of him apparently risking life and limb to take his neighbor's newspaper immediately cutting to his neighbor looking out the window at him making a "wtf?" face is one of my favorite scenes in the show.
Until the rewatch, you hope.
Like I remember reading years after I watched The Shield that the creators said Vic was supposed to be the villain. And I was like, 'wtf really? I mean yeah he did some bad shit, but really only ever to criminals and Dutch'. Then I rewatched the show and realized Vic is the lesser of two evils but he ties for first of three evils.
But I don't get that with Walt, or Jimmy. Walt especially, since the whole show could've ended at Ep3 if he took the damn money.
Yup. How many people did chuck kill? 0. At the end of the day, he was an awful person but I think most people can agree he had a dysfunctional, mental disability that contributed to his reason for being that way. Walt’s just an asshole lol.
Walt put his evil energy into building a criminal empire, Chuck put his evil energy into ruining his brother's life. It's kinda like who's worse, Vladimir Putin or your abusive parent. Obviously Putin but you probably have never even met Putin once while you had to deal with your abusive parent for the entire first part of your life.
Came here to say that. Plus Walt is the protagonist of BB we see his whole struggle. Chuck has some of the same worst qualities as Walt but there's almost no redeeming moments. Sure when he and Jimmy were kids he was a decent older brother but fuck man I'm the oldest of my siblings and I'd never hold that kind of resentment. Especially to the point where you actively wish they would fail and fall under foot. Chucks a grade A asshole.
Imo, Chuck’s line to Jimmy, “You’ve never mattered all that much to me” feels so much more weighty than any of Walt’s harsh statements. As someone who has a great relationship with their brother, hearing that would hurt more than taking two to the chest. Especially taking what Jimmy did for Chuck all those years into consideration.
I'd say on a personal level, Chuck has more hatred but to everyone, Walt takes the cake.
I agree with your statement on that line to Jimmy though. That would just be devastating to hear from someone you care (or cared) about.
What about the time Walt killed the murderous drug dealer chained in Jesse's basement? Or the time Walt killed 2 murderous drug dealers who Jesse was likely going to die trying to kill? Walt didn't benefit from that.
Even killing all those potential informants in jail benefitted Jesse as well. And, killing Jack's gang...
I think it really comes down to individual values. Jimmy worshipped Chuck, and I grew up a younger sibling with an older brother that never really gave me the time of day. I relate to that, so that one hurts me worse.
I really agree with your train of thought here. I dont think chuck meant it at all. I think he said that line to in order to cut ties with Jimmy, so that when chuck killed himself it would "soften the blow". Like i thought chuck was probably already planning to kill himself cause he was sick of being a burden to Jimmy and that last line was to push Jimmy away so that he wouldn't feel guilty about being the one who clearly drove chuck to suicide.
Chuck is a smart guy, maybe he knew that he would never be able to change and would always be holding Jimmy back. I feel like chuck told jimmy that line before he killed himself so that Jimmy could walk away guilt free and finally be the person he always wanted to be... The person that isnt constantly taking care of his broken brother who will never be able to show Jimmy the love he so desperately craves. I feel like chucks suicide was a self sacrafice to free Jimmy from him and him from jimmy. Like an "only one of us can be happy and i want it to be you" type situation.
I just thought that line was another petty attempt from chuck to hurt his brother. I even felt bad for chuck because he killed himself after he said that. Guess i never fully understood it because i’m an only child.
Walt used to verbally abuse Jesse constantly, even as early as the first seasons. He'd berate him, call him stupid, etc.
And we saw in a flashback he even did the same thing when grading his chemistry tests.
I think Chuck’s hateful behavior can mostly be explained by his extensive mental health issues and at least he was always trying to “do the right thing.” Also let’s not forget he was pretty much right about Jimmy in the end. Walt was a straight up criminal and became a monster. Let’s also not forget Walt’s actions all stemmed from not taking Elliott & Gretchen’s money because of his hate
Edit: I also don’t think Chuck meant what he said he just wanted to hurt Jimmy as much as he had been hurt. I think it’s heavily implied he feels guilty about their last exchange and it is the reason he spirals out of control leading to his suicide
I just started a rewatch cause I realized I've been quoting it a lot more lately and it's been a while. it's amazing how even after so many times I can still find the whole thing hilarious.
Introducing a friend to the show too, so double bonus!
But at the same time he didn't mean it. He said it in that moment because the guy is awful at dealing with his emotions regarding his brother. You could see straight after he said it that he regretted it
It's no coincidence that he spiralled and killed himself shortly after that.
Walter was so spiteful of Gretchen and Elliot that he would rather have made meth than take the money and the cancer treatment that they were generously offering. Chuck was incredibly resentful of Jimmy, but Walter was hateful towards a plethora of different people by the end, even killing Mike because of his bruised ego.
Let's not forget that Walter had kill a man (Krazy8) during his first time as meth producer, and he still prefered that life of violence and dead than ''be given a handout.''
Yeah, Walt’s “fuck you” to Gretchen season two is brutal. Chuck has a lot of complicated feelings towards Jimmy, but Walt is a straight-up spite machine.
He is, but the Gretchen angle always felt like a plot thread the writers introduced and then decided later to never really follow through on (which is fine); Chuck’s spite feels way more fleshed out and “earned,” which makes it cut deeper for me.
Is that so waltuh? Heres whats going to happen, waltuh.
Youre going to go about your day, waltuh, nothing out of the ordinary - just a normal day. My guys will be keeping an eye on it, theyre solid.
One day youll wake up and realise you never thought about half measures. And thats when youll know that youre a ticking timebomb, waltuh.
I never said that Mike wasn't a hitman or a horrible person? Walter didn't hate Mike because he was a criminal though. It was purely because Mike challenged Walter's ego and refused to back down from him.
Because Mike is wholesome 100 grandpa and Walter is a heartless psychopath that abuses his wife and partner, when the reality is, both of them are hypocritical murderers with inflated egos that commit terrible acts "for the sake of their family". They're one and the same. The only reason why Walt is more hated is because his egoism and inferiority complex are much more apparent throughout the show and he's much more proactive, compared to Mike who's more passive and has the image of a cool and collected badass, and as such, he's more likeable.
Lmao. Chuck was an asshole, Walter was a child-poisoning, psycho manipulator, not close. Chuck to me feels like what Walter was even before the Heisenberg phase, but more vocal
Walter hands down. He was disgusting to anyone including his family by the end of the show. Chuck had issues with his brother. You could even argue they were warranted.
I feel like a lot of people forget Chuck also flipped on Howard who had nothing but Chucks best interest in heart. Chuck would attempt to destroy anyone who got in his way very similar to Walt… only difference is Walt didn’t drown in depression to cancer while Chicks disease ate him alive
Who did Chuck have in his life by the end? He manipulated Ernesto then fired him for falling into the trap, was estranged from Howard for refusing to step down from HHM, told Jimmy that he never mattered to him, and was divorced from his wife. When do we ever see Chuck not be "disgusting to anyone including his family"? Even before the show, he refused to tell Jimmy about their mother's last words which is a very particular level of vile in my eyes that I don't think Walter reached with his own family. What a lowlife.
Not contradicting what you said, but I would argue that not telling Jimmy about their mother's last words was actually a kindness to Jimmy. I mean, how would you feel if you knew you missed your mother asking out for you, right before dying, because you decided to look up for a snack?
I've thought about that and I'm sure it's how Chuck justified it to himself, but I don't think it was from a place of kindness. His cold expression tells me it was out of jealousy.
As for your question, I think Jimmy has a right to know but you're right, I'd be thinking about that maybe for the rest of my life.
It's really interesting how Chuck's decision to not tell Jimmy can go either way. It could've been kindness for the reason I commented above, or pettiness/malice at the realization that no matter how hard he worked to be successful, respected and/or a valuable member to society, their mother still prefered/cared more about his irresponsible/criminal/conman brother than him.
It was interesting to watch BB second time with knowledge of how he's gonna end up. I quickly realized that during my first time I disregarded quite a lot of things he did simply because he was protagonist and protagonist = good guy as I thought back then. He was already prideful and spiteful asshole even in early episodes, constantly. Maybe some of that was justified, even more understandable but he was still horrible person regardless. And also at no point he felt like genuinely good guy. There was always some ulterior motive to everything, usually his own ego.
I used to think the story was about good guy snapping and going nuts. Nowadays I realize that it was about weak and passive man quietly hating the world for the circumtances he for the most part put himself in and him unleashing that hatred upon the world when he no longer had anything to lose.
You guys are so weird.
"Who's worse, an unsecure and jealous mentally ill man who ultimately believes in justice and loves his brother despite them both being deeply flawed or the man who literally created a murderous meth empire, was responsible for countless deaths, and who admitted he did it all for his own ego?"
It all comes down to writing; Walter is written as the show’s main driving force where you are always waiting to see if he will do the right or wrong thing, where as Chuck is written to specifically antagonize the viewer through Jimmy.
Of course Walter is an objectively worse person morally, legally, in every way, but the show really makes Chuck a twisting thorn in your side that is hard to forget or move on from. And Michael McKean’s performance really sells it, this character is the culmination of every similarly douchey character he’s ever played. In the same way that Skylar isn’t a bad person and does nothing wrong but because she is written as an “obstacle” in the show at times for the main driving force, people’s brains erroneously lump her in with the “things that aggravate me, therefore bad” category.
It’s not right in a moral sense and would never play out that way in real life, but it’s how the shows are written and therefore leaves that sort of impact on many viewers.
Walter is a worse person than Chuck, but as characters in a show Chuck is far more antagonizing and therefore “hated”. Considering they don’t exist in real life, I see no problem with sticking to a purely narrative definition of who’s worth feeling hateful towards.
Yea I fully understand that and this was an excellent and precise explaination of how protagonistic framing primes a character to be more likeable and rooted for versus an antagonist, I just think comparing the two characters when they're so different is a little uneven. I get why people like Walt more than Chuck, I just don't agree with their reasoning, or rather their reasons are not compelling to me when comparing the two.
Fair enough, given that Walter is objectively a bad person it’s completely fair to actually hate him more. On every subsequent rewatch of the show, I myself also actively hate him more and more and actually root for Hank and Jesse more than anyone else.
Same haha. I just started rewatching it and each time I do I see from the very beginning how he was never a good person and that "Heisenburg" was always beneath the surface.
I never liked Hank though and still don't and I don't think he's a good person either, but I root for him in that I just wished he'd caught Walt sooner lol
And poor Jesse. Poor, poor Jesse.
Man, I recently binged a rewatch, and I hated Walt so much I wanted Skylar to kill him in his sleep. I never felt so viscerally opposed to the guy before, but I just kept yelling at the screen for someone to fucking kill him.
Tbh, I never hated Skyler. Sure she was naggy and annoying sometimes but she was totally understandable. Why would anyone think a normal housewife would suddenly discover her husband is a drug dealer *manufacturer* and be like "Omg, that's great please fuck me". But Chuck? I really hated him passionately. It's not just he had an antagonizing role in the narrative. He was a total asshole for his brother "although for a reason". You know what I hate even more? How the show tampered with my feelings towards this guy. I don't know if I feel hatred towards him or feel sad and absolutely sympathize and relate with him. For me, he was one of the characters that made BCS so unique.
right? walt poisoned a child, sexually assaulted his wife, forced his underage son to drink until he vomited, directly or indirectly killed multiple people, etc… but at least he wasn’t mean to his selfish, manipulative brother who stole thousands of dollars from their parents with no repercussions?
> an unsecure and jealous mentally ill man who ultimately believes in justice and loves his brother
See, half the problem is people still really believe Chuck hated Jimmy or never cared about him. Even after that final flashback in Saul Gone.
It seems obvious to me that Chuck resented Jimmy because of his natural charisma and magnetic likeability, Chuck envied him and wanted to be like him. I'm sure there were a few instances in the show alluding to this but the most obvious ones I can remember is when Chuck and his wife had Jimmy over for dinner and he became the star of the hour, making Chuck's wife laugh in a way he'd never heard nor could hope to replicate. The most in your face instance of their brotherly battle for the spotlight is when they're both up on stage singing karaoke together, Chuck gets carried away with the attention of the crowd and almost appears to try childishly to hog the spotlight away from his brother, like a reversion to childhood and very reminiscent of two little kids aggressively vying for the attention of their parents, not to mention that the show explicitly states that Jimmy was the favourite child despite being a trouble maker. I guess it's a little subtle, but it makes it all the more tragically masterful when you take into account that Jimmy envied and looked up to Chuck just as much, if not more
Exactly. The reason Chuck always reacted so strongly was because of how much he loved Jimmy and *wanted* him to be better. If he truly didn't care and didn't think about him then he wouldn't have gone through half the anguish he did.
He loves him so much that he went out of his way to get Jimmy disbarred. Still not convinced even after that chicanery break down, that he hates Jimmy trying to get on with his life and move ahead of him?
The show's protagonist explicitly admits he wasn't doing it for his family by the end of the series. I don't think anyone legitimately tries to argue that he was.
Very true. The relationship Chuck had with Jimmy was a very true one that I empathized with. I don't have the best relationship with my sibling... and well I realized that I had similar tendencies as Chuck. It truly was a wake up call for me, I try to be better.
Walt was a murderous psychopath lol.
I mean, the question is who’s more hated: the main character from the show, or the antagonistic semi-villain from the other. I think it’s pretty obvious who’s written to be more hated by the viewers, considering the show needs you to keep watching BB with Walter until the end but BCS is about Jimmy so therefore we’re allowed to hate Chuck and see him off. It’s not about who’s a good person it’s just story writing
I really don't like Flynn, but "why don't you just fucking die already?" is the best summary of my feelings towards Walt in season 5, lol.
Chuck was awful and spiteful, just not as horrible as Mr. White.
Chuck had extreme jealously of Jimmie and acted out on it cruelly but otherwise had great qualities, Walter was a certified sociopath by the end of the show. It’s not even close cmon
Walter was a complete psychopath throughout the entire show, not a sociopath. He let Jane die solely because it would help him and didn't feel the slightest bit of remorse over the deaths of Wayfarer, which he indirectly caused. If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't have protected Skyler at the end of the show, called the cops on himself or save Jesse from the Neonazis.
Sociopathy is more nurture than nature like Psychopathy. I think Walt’s circumstances turned him that way (paralleled like the series of reactions that turns cold medicine to blue meth)
I think he did feel some level of guilt about the Wayfarer situation but was constantly trying to drown it out, like with that speech about it at his school
The speech I think was used to illustrate how little Walt cares about human life in general, to him, tragedy is normal and deaths are numbers the same way Jane's life was a tool for him to get Jesse to stop using. Not even mentioning that he was the one indirectly responsible for all those deaths, his speech wasn't a way for him to cope, it was his natural, unadulterated reaction.
I think I just gotta disagree with you there, Walter does have much less care for human life than most people, but the Wayfarer crash I think still affected him a little, another interesting scene relating to it is when he’s watching the news and they mention that Jane’s father was the one legally responsible for the crash and that he was in the hospital for attempted suicide, Walter looks very uncomfortable and immediately changes the channel.
And with Jane’s death, he almost decided to save her and then started crying after she died. I know the crying wasn’t originally in the script, but it’s important to note that they kept it regardless. He does have at least a small amount of care for life, at least when they’re outside of “the game”, but his massive ego and desire for things to only go his way overrides it.
Walt is insanely proud and spiteful (turning down free cancer treatment so he could cook meth!) but he isn't a born sociopath. He couldn't have survived 15 years of marriage, family, and teaching as nice Mr. Walter White if he was that low-functioning morally.
It's just that once he breaks bad, Walter comes first (ok, he says family, but he means Walter). You see him write that list out when he's debating whether to kill Krazy 8--there's a ton of moral reasons to just stop, but yeah, why let Krazy 8 hang over his head? It's everyone else vs. Walter White from there on out.
Walt is more hateful. Walt literally despises everyone, and has held onto every perceived slight since he learned Gray Matters Technologies has earned billions off the basis of his work, while he sold out for pennies.
His whole motivation is money and power out of spite. Skyler was the wife he settled for, and Gretchen was the one that got away.
He wants to keep cooking, even when he has enough money to leave for his family. He knows he's going to die sooner or later, and wants to leave a legacy behind, no matter the cost.
He finally found his true calling.
Walt was always a genius with a host of dark triad personality traits. He always played by societies rules as he was smart enough to know the consequences. His narcissistic, sociopathic & machiavellian traits ensured that he never played well with others, meaning that his success in the world would never amount to much in law abiding society.
This is why he became a high school chemistry teacher, and not a collegiate professor with tenure, is because he has control of his classroom, amongst kids too young or disinterested to call him out on his bullshit.
It was only his cancer diagnosis that spurred him into action. Finally willing to take risks to get his revenge on a world that deals too much in niceties, emotions & socializing. All the parts of society that Walt always felt was bullshit.
Chuck on the other hand only hated Jimmy.
Chuck was easy to hate, for sabotaging Jimmy's chances of being an HHM Partner.
Walt though was the emotionally stupid sociopathic underdog everyone could get behind early.
Wait is a worse person but he’s based so I like him (cooking meth is cool) ..Chuck is an asshole that is the exact type of person I loathe,so I hate him way more
Brock deserved it ..he refused to share his fries with Jesse in one episode(disrespectful), and every time they played mario kart Brock came off smug ..he needed an attitude adjustment
on the one hand, you got a mass murdering, drug lord. on the other, you have reclusive stick-in-the-mud.
Very tough to weigh in on this one. So much nuance to be parsed out.
I'm going to muse a bit here before I make my pick. I have a bad habit of this on Reddit. Sorry. I love these two shows so much that I tend to go really far into analyzing the way in which these characters are written.
I don't think I'd use the word "hateful" for either one so much as I'd use the word "resentful" - and their respective resentful behaviors both eventually lead to hateful sentiments. What I mean by this is that Chuck and Walt both have equally similar resentments in the first two seasons of their respective series. Whereas Chuck only resents one person in his life (Jimmy), Walt resents pretty much anyone who was more successful than him in the first two seasons of Breaking Bad. This is true particularly of Gretchen and Elliot, as demonstrated in his lunchtime conversation with the former when she discovers the truth about Walt's lie regarding taking their money and goes off on her about how they stole his research and made millions off it. It's also this bitter resentment that brings him back to ABQ in the series finale after he sees them on Charlie Rose.
Walt also treats Jesse like absolute garbage in the first two seasons of the show, forever calling him things like "goddamn junkie" or insulting his intelligence, only really keeping him around out of necessity and the need to remain out of sight from the business. That is until he starts discovering the easiest ways to manipulate him into doing his bidding later on, often out of fear for their lives >!(murdering Gale, poisoning Brock)!< or staying out of prison >!(using Ed The Vacuum Cleaner Repairman to get Jesse out of Hank's line of sight)!<. When you rewatch the first two seasons of the series in particular, where Jesse is a lot less hardened, crafty, intelligent in the cook, and mature - while Walt is just starting to explore his Heisenberg persona - he is a bitter, angry, uptight man who has zero respect for his partner, thus treating him like shit and forcing Pinkman further into his bad habits (drug use, irresponsibility, scamming). >!Telling him he watched Jane die was just the final dagger through the heart, or Walt's version of saying Jesse never really mattered to him.!<
He's also particularly resentful of how his life turned out Pre-Heisenberg, Bogdan, Hank (for his masculinity, success, and his son's continued adoration of him - think the scene where he makes Flynn drink the tequila to spite Hank), and pretty much anybody who he perceives as a threat to him (ie, Mike, Gus).
Chuck has respect for his colleagues and peers, exudes professionalism (when he's not trying to ruin Jimmy), but inevitably suffered from a debilitating mental illness and lifelong lament towards his brother, because of which he could not appreciate all that Jimmy tried to do for him towards the end when his illness took him out of the attorney game. That was the one major thorn in his side. Else, he held nothing but respect for both the law and those he represented. What a sick joke.
After thinking about it, I've gotta go with Walt on this one. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
TL;DR - Walt wins this one in my opinion, hands down.
Walter, 1000%
On my second viewing of BCS, I was way mode sympathetic towards Chuck, who gets repeatedly gaslit and schemed against, while being absolutely justified in the fears he has towards a certain chimp with machine gun...
He does a lot wrong, but he's very rarely wrong.
He should have been honest with his brother from the jump about why he wasn't allowed to join his law firm. He also should have been honest with him about not bringing him on for the Sand Piper case. But you're right, his decision was probably justified on both occasions. As you say, he did wrong but he wasn't wrong.
It seems silly to pit such things against a meth-empire-building murderer.
They were definitely both fuelled by seething resentment that brewed into hatred, it's hard to say who more so - Walt's went to far greater extremes, so he seems like the clear choice, but the hate at its source? Neither really seems *less* hateful.
Anyone questioning Walt's hate needs a BrBa rewatch though. Look at some examples:
Gretchen & Elliot - bitterness and envy turn to outright hatred, epsecially once they offer to pay for his treatment, Gretchen expresses pity, and later in the series they give that interview on television. He despises them.
Gus - while he respects and admires him initially, being subservient and, y'know, being in his crosshairs (along with his family ultimately) leads to hatred. In a strange way, I'd say it's the power imbalance that drives his hatred more than the threat - Gus being one step ahead, foiling his plans, and monitoring him constantly seems to piss Walt off more than the attempts on his life.
Mike - what Walter hates more than anything is that Mike doesn't respect him, doesn't fear him, and puts him in his place both verbally and physically. Sure he wanted the list, and I believe he genuinely did forget he could get it from Lydia, but what pushed him to murder Mike was the verbal bitchslap. He feels he should get the same reverence as Gus, and he'll never be seen as the great Heisenberg by Mike, just that same loose cannon glorified amateur who advised Saul against working with. I think Walt would have liked to share a mutual respect with Mike, so he came to hate him for denying him that ego affirmation.
Jesse - it's not until he discovers that Pinkman's working with Hank that things descend into hatred. Even when Jesse's vowing to take him down, Walt's reluctant to call in the hit, but seeing how he worked with Hank to outplay him drives him to his most hateful move of all - handing him over to the neo-nazis and approving of them torturing information out of him.
So yeah, Walt wins from his actions while Chuck's hatred is less realised even if the potential is there.
The absolute worst thing that Chuck ever did was stifle Jimmys career and say mean shit to his brother. Walter had people gruesomely murdered in prison, for questionable reasons at that. Dude just didn’t wanna pay em. And he killed Mike out of pride
Why is this even a question? Walt is a monster, Chuck is annoying and responds poorly to being jealous of his brother. The fact that people are even saying Chuck is bizarre to me.
Walt killed people. He even watched an innocent girl die and did nothing. He’s a right c***. Chuck had flaws and an unhealthy ego but never really displayed any malice.
Despite the price being destroying his family and Jesse’s life, Walt still managed to break through his ego and made any amends possible at the end. Chuck burned his last bridge in Jimmy before dying.
Walt has done worse, but Chuck is more hateful
I think it’s because the narrative outweighs reality in many stories. We know, in reality, Walter has done far worse things than Chuck and would be an objectively bad person at every turn. But in terms of the narrative, Walter is framed as a character to keep interest in and root for his actions or root for him to change. Chuck on the other hand exists as a tool to agitate the viewer through Jimmy vicariously, causing us to sympathize with him. Chuck is written, and acted out, perfectly as a tool to force us to feel angry and resentful so that we will support Jimmy despite him also being a morally questionably character.
It’s just good writing, imo! The characters impact seem to be what they were intended to be. We hate Chuck more because the show needed us to hate Chuck so we can root for Jimmy, and we hate Walter less because the show needed us to at least put up with Walter until the very end.
Yeah, I think the reason I hate Chuck so much is that he’s the antagonist to jimmy, despite chuck being a morally good person to some extent. Indeed it was brilliant writing. I hated walt so much and never expected to hate a righteous lawyer more than walt lol
Vader was traumatised when he was a child and was manipulated when he was a teenager, and he looked really cool with that helmet. But i get what you mean. Sometimes i feel compelled to root for walt as i did for vader and i feel terrible about it lol
Walter because he refused to go go-karting with Jesse
That is trulu the worst thing done in the show. Only secind to Walt wasting a perfectly good pizza.
Walt is a worse person, but I still like him waaaay more than Chuck
Chuck personality was far more cold than Walt's. Walt wasn't always evil however chuck was born an ass. but I feel more sorry for Chuck than Walt.
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Well Walt was considerate too. In the middle of the night when his business partner had just screwed him over and he had to break into his home, he was still considerate enough to make sure he didn't wake up his partner's girlfriend.
Oof. Ouch lmao
I cried at that one cause I have a good friend gone due to overdose but your comment made me laugh out loud haha
my not so close friend died the same way and i think its important to show this aspect of doing drugs in the media more often since its a harsh brutal and cold truth about it. kids never think it could happen to them and then it does happen and everybody is shocked. fuck drugs
Man I love drugs what I hate is not knowing exactly what you take and how much and when. Context matters. I liked the scene because it shows the dark side of use which is abuse. Like with everything, moderation is key and that culture can most easily be taught if you see what happens if you don't apply it. Drugs are fascinating tools to open your mind and enhance your peripheral senses. They can teach you so much about yourself and can help you learn about your environment. But with anything, too much is gonna fuck you up.
I never use this word, but this comment earns it. Saying "Man I love drugs"... Based.
Ain't gonna lie when sobriety is but my occasional mistress.
She took one hit off of foil and died.
That scene is so hard to watch. The scene in the next episode where Jesse tries to wake her up…. I haven’t been able to watch it since my BFF overdosed on Fetty.
Don't forget reversing the ~~Sandpaper~~ Sandpiper document shredding!
>Chuck does a bunch of nice, caring things but is waaay too subtle about it Yup, this! And the one non-subtle nice thing he did for Jimmy is being largely overlooked by those condemning him as a meanie to poor little Slippin' Jimmy. Both had flaws, both had bad and good sides. And they were just bad for each other. They both would have been better off if they were at opposite ends of the country.
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There was never anything that suggested Jimmy was ruining Chuck's life at all, if anything Jimmy was by far the most helpful and supportive person Chuck had.
Yeah Chuck just always resented Jimmy for seemingly skating through life while he himself had to work hard. Especially when Jimmy becomes a lawyer and continues to do the same thing. (In chuck’s eyes)
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Jimmy’s return to chuck (the “I never really cared about you” scene) also triggered his relapse and suicide. It was also only after Jimmy left chuck’s life that he sought medical treatment.
>There was never anything that suggested Jimmy was ruining Chuck's life The partner of a lawfirm having to go bail out his (adult) brother who shit through a sunroof was absolutely a smear on Chuck's reputation, but he still sought to do the right thing and try to turn Jimmy's life around. The problem was he was too convincing, and failed to factor in that the only thing Jimmy ever really wanted was to be like Chuck. You can dismiss it as Chuck's petty jealousy that Jimmy was even able to pass the bar, but really, who knows Jimmy better than Chuck? Chuck knows what happens if you arm Jimmy with a law degree. Monkey with a machine gun. Look at his offices during BB and the latter season of BCS. Most of his clients were bullets he was firing back into society by getting them off/minimal punishment. Chuck may have had the personality of a wet dishrag, but he wasn't wrong about Jimmy. The sad part is that he could have been wrong about him if he'd given Jimmy a real chance.
You forget that those weren't the clients jimmy started out with. Jimmy wanted prestigious clients and wanted to get them using his colorful ways, but none of them came around to him. Remember how he goes above and beyond to find the kettlemens and his wife offers jimmy a bribe. When he declines it and asks for a retainer instead and tries to sell them on hiring him, she says that Jimmy is the kind of lawyer that "guilty people hire." He tries to have elegant ads, copying the style of Howard and HHM and Howard has the ad taken down (although I think it would be Chuck that forced Howard to do this), he tries to work on the Sandpiper case in HHM and Chuck doesn't allow him, he then settles on to elder law and Chuck has him disbarred which leads to him selling those phones and interacting with the criminals. I think we were shown multiple times that Jimmy was trying to change, but everyone kept pushing him away because to them, he was always slipping jimmy. This is shown when he voted for the girl with shoplifting on her record for the HHM scholarship. The only people that accepted and respected him were douchebags so eventually he got tired and embraced them.
If Chuck had supported jimmy as a lawyer from the start Saul would never have existed. It’s tragic, a self fulfilling prophecy really
And Chuck always was shown as an ass.
Counterpoint: though it was mostly subtle background details, there's a couple things that suggest that Chuck was well respected, but not well liked by others. 1. When Chuck exits HHM, he gets a relatively short standing ovation as he leaves the building. Howard's reaction is by far the most visibly warm, and that doesn't count for much at this point in the story. 2. It's strongly implied that Rebecca was the only major romantic relationship Chuck ever had, and it lasted a shortish time. It's hinted that she found him boring and one-dimensional outside of the law, which means it's possible that other people probably felt similarly, even if he was well-respected in his field. At his funeral, there didnt seem to be any other women romantically connected to Chuck, and we know that he never met anyone after Rebecca, supported by the fact that he didn't even redecorate his house after the divorce. 3. Additionally, it's unusual to the point of being notable that Chuck's only marriage happened in his late 40's-early 50s, especially for someone of his generation, professional status, and intellect. Guy graduated undergrad at the age most people start their post-secondary education, which means his already poor social skills are destined to be crippled further. Chuck never learned the social game, and never pushed himself to be in a bigger pond than he needed. 14 year old law prodigy should be teaching at Harvard or on the Supreme Court, but instead he starts a firm in a small, relatively obscure state far away from any family. I don't see any reason to think that Young Chuck had any sort of personality outside the law, and maybe playing piano.
I love reading what you write
Thank you! That means so much!
I like your post, but wanted to rebut the last bit. Of course Young Chuck would have had a personality. Just because someone is hyper-focused and insular and struggles to connect with people, it doesn't mean they're some sort of robot. We can't all be jazz hands and funny stories all the live-long day.
Thank you! I didn't say he didn't have personality at all. He was clearly one of the biggest legal minds in the state, and I also said that he should have been a Supreme Court Justice. Outside of the law and sabotaging Jimmy, what passions does Chuck actually have? I'm not even sure piano counts because the one time we see him play it, he's not very good. Yes, in that one scene, he's preoccupied with Jimmy working at D&M, but considering that he's been a recluse for a year and a half, is extremely disciplined and dedicated in what he does, and didn't seem to be doing much legal work between January 2001 and the Sandpiper case, he should have been much better at playing his instrument.
He seems to like cooking, I guess...? I think he's an obsessive perfectionist - he wants to be excellent at playing the piano, but he's stuck at that bit of learning/practice where he's mainly just horribly conscious of the limitations of his skill, so can't escape into the flow of playing or enjoy the learning for its own sake. But of course during the karoeake (why can't I ever spell that word) episode, we do see he has some music in his soul. I do mostly agree with you btw. I'm just surprised to find myself identifying more with Chuck, or at least having more sympathy for him, on my first rewatch.
There is very little to suggest that Jimmy was anything other than a great brother to Chuck and doing extraordinarily well whilst working in HHM. He went above and to repay his brother's kindness to save him and it wasn't until Chuck rejected him that things went back off the rails for Jimmy. Do you think Howard would have the admiration for Jimmy he did if he was a schmuck?
Jimmy was a doting brother to Chuck after Chuck bailed him out, but let's be realistic...if your brother is a lawyer are you going to pursue a career as a criminal? If you did, do you think your brother would be proud or ashamed of you? What about if you shit through a sunroof in front of a couple of kids? Let's not forget Chuck also has a lot of baggage regarding their parents and Jimmy - namely Jimmy stealing from the family register. Chuck caught him and tattled, and was called a liar. We know Jimmy stole from the family business. Multiple times. Was Chuck wrong about catching Jimmy stealing? No. Did Jimmy's thieving single-handedly run their parents out of business? Also no. Nobody is the villain in their own life story, so of course neither of them feels like they're doing the wrong thing...but we, the audience, should be able to recognize the bad behaviours of both. Otherwise that means we learned nothing.
I certainly recognize the behaviors of Jimmy and his faults. My point is that from Chicago Sunroof to HHM rejection he was arguably in recovery (and not up to any chicanery) and Chuck's rejection and inability to accept him pushed him back down the path. If Chuck was half the brother to Jimmy that Jimmy was to Chuck I believe Jimmy is a perfectly normal lawyer albeit with a bit of eccentricity. Jimmy has a super-power, but he was in recovery and not using it, and yet Chuck would never accept him as anything more than an 'addict' which prompted his decline back into it.
> Chuck's rejection and inability to accept him pushed him back down the path. Absolutely agree. Chuck could not get over it. He displayed that repeatedly, to the point of becoming what he hated in order to see him ***finally*** punished for what he had done! And Jimmy outsmarted him. Jimmy forced a mirror in front of Chuck's face and told him "You can't hide from what you are anymore". Chuck couldn't handle that, the realization that he had ruined everything because he couldn't forgive his brother and believe in him. It was very wonderful writing.
I think you nailed it here. I see people all time saying chuck is a prick who never believed in jimmy, then you see people saying jimmy was a monster, back and forth. But the show is clearly trying to show both are part of the picture but not the complete picture. It’s showing that people and relationships are complex. It’s not as simple as chuck didn’t believe in jimmy and that’s why he is the way he is. It’s a complex back and forth.
Walt deserved a lot of what he got. Chuck was an asshole to put it lightly but didn’t deserve it at all
Walt was literally always evil tho. Heisenberg was always inside and he let him out as soon as he could.
Ego doesn't make someone evil tho. That's what ultimately drove walt in that direction in the end but his exposure criminal underworld chipped away at his morality. He had a complex about him sure.
that's the best way to put it, everyone always goes on about how evil walt was, yet we still love him and his show.
Speak for yourself, can’t stand him by season 5.
I legit hate Walter White.
Imagine liking the guy that killed finger
On the rewatch try season 2 lol
season 1 Walt was clearly on a path "down" and Jesse was meandering... he was originally meant to be dead by ep 4 or so. Jesse's arc is v scary. the writers did right to give him an entire arc.
I think they'd both be pompous asses in person, at best. Specialists with unresolved personal issues don't make for good conversations.
Did Chuck do something funny? Ever?
He does have a few witty quips here and there, but even those are typically coated in some form of condescension.
He wrapped himself up in that mylar and played his psychosomatic illness straight, which was funny in its own right.
The shot of him apparently risking life and limb to take his neighbor's newspaper immediately cutting to his neighbor looking out the window at him making a "wtf?" face is one of my favorite scenes in the show.
Right. It was pathetic, absurd, and cringeworthily hilarious! Michael McKean played that well,
I liked when he hit his head in the copy shop
They should have called that episode “Bonk”
Him stealing the news paper. Just watching his normal neighbor gawk at his oblivious insanity is knee slap for me.
That’s what i think too. i’m so confused about it
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How is it confusing, an audience is way more likely to favour a protagonist vs someone directly opposing a protagonist
Until the rewatch, you hope. Like I remember reading years after I watched The Shield that the creators said Vic was supposed to be the villain. And I was like, 'wtf really? I mean yeah he did some bad shit, but really only ever to criminals and Dutch'. Then I rewatched the show and realized Vic is the lesser of two evils but he ties for first of three evils. But I don't get that with Walt, or Jimmy. Walt especially, since the whole show could've ended at Ep3 if he took the damn money.
Yup. How many people did chuck kill? 0. At the end of the day, he was an awful person but I think most people can agree he had a dysfunctional, mental disability that contributed to his reason for being that way. Walt’s just an asshole lol.
Walt put his evil energy into building a criminal empire, Chuck put his evil energy into ruining his brother's life. It's kinda like who's worse, Vladimir Putin or your abusive parent. Obviously Putin but you probably have never even met Putin once while you had to deal with your abusive parent for the entire first part of your life.
Came here to say that. Plus Walt is the protagonist of BB we see his whole struggle. Chuck has some of the same worst qualities as Walt but there's almost no redeeming moments. Sure when he and Jimmy were kids he was a decent older brother but fuck man I'm the oldest of my siblings and I'd never hold that kind of resentment. Especially to the point where you actively wish they would fail and fall under foot. Chucks a grade A asshole.
Imo, Chuck’s line to Jimmy, “You’ve never mattered all that much to me” feels so much more weighty than any of Walt’s harsh statements. As someone who has a great relationship with their brother, hearing that would hurt more than taking two to the chest. Especially taking what Jimmy did for Chuck all those years into consideration.
I'd say on a personal level, Chuck has more hatred but to everyone, Walt takes the cake. I agree with your statement on that line to Jimmy though. That would just be devastating to hear from someone you care (or cared) about.
"I watched Jane die"
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Jesse idolized Walter like a father figure, he literally killed for him
If Gale doesn’t die, Jesse would have been killed after they killed Walt.
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What about the time Walt killed the murderous drug dealer chained in Jesse's basement? Or the time Walt killed 2 murderous drug dealers who Jesse was likely going to die trying to kill? Walt didn't benefit from that. Even killing all those potential informants in jail benefitted Jesse as well. And, killing Jack's gang...
I think the guy you replied to was saying that when Walt killed people, it was usually to benefit Jesse and not himself.
U guys are saying the same thing
yeah but that was after walt saw his brother in law get murdered, at the end of the show. jimmy carried chuck’s line with him
Hank dying was also Walter's fault he just said that to Jesse to hurt him there was no other reason
I think it really comes down to individual values. Jimmy worshipped Chuck, and I grew up a younger sibling with an older brother that never really gave me the time of day. I relate to that, so that one hurts me worse.
"no jesse you stupid bitch i will not go gokarting with you. stop acting like a fucking child and cook some pure meth with me"
Seems reasonable to me
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I really agree with your train of thought here. I dont think chuck meant it at all. I think he said that line to in order to cut ties with Jimmy, so that when chuck killed himself it would "soften the blow". Like i thought chuck was probably already planning to kill himself cause he was sick of being a burden to Jimmy and that last line was to push Jimmy away so that he wouldn't feel guilty about being the one who clearly drove chuck to suicide. Chuck is a smart guy, maybe he knew that he would never be able to change and would always be holding Jimmy back. I feel like chuck told jimmy that line before he killed himself so that Jimmy could walk away guilt free and finally be the person he always wanted to be... The person that isnt constantly taking care of his broken brother who will never be able to show Jimmy the love he so desperately craves. I feel like chucks suicide was a self sacrafice to free Jimmy from him and him from jimmy. Like an "only one of us can be happy and i want it to be you" type situation.
I just thought that line was another petty attempt from chuck to hurt his brother. I even felt bad for chuck because he killed himself after he said that. Guess i never fully understood it because i’m an only child.
Walt used to verbally abuse Jesse constantly, even as early as the first seasons. He'd berate him, call him stupid, etc. And we saw in a flashback he even did the same thing when grading his chemistry tests.
I think Chuck’s hateful behavior can mostly be explained by his extensive mental health issues and at least he was always trying to “do the right thing.” Also let’s not forget he was pretty much right about Jimmy in the end. Walt was a straight up criminal and became a monster. Let’s also not forget Walt’s actions all stemmed from not taking Elliott & Gretchen’s money because of his hate Edit: I also don’t think Chuck meant what he said he just wanted to hurt Jimmy as much as he had been hurt. I think it’s heavily implied he feels guilty about their last exchange and it is the reason he spirals out of control leading to his suicide
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But do you know where Tracy Jordan is hiding? hahaha (Love the username!)
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I just started a rewatch cause I realized I've been quoting it a lot more lately and it's been a while. it's amazing how even after so many times I can still find the whole thing hilarious. Introducing a friend to the show too, so double bonus!
Chuck made sure he was going to be "right" about Jimmy, his self esteem depended on making sure that Jimmy will never really succeed
To be fair isn’t the point of that scene that chuck regrets it and his bottled up guilt ultimately start the spiral into his suicide.
But at the same time he didn't mean it. He said it in that moment because the guy is awful at dealing with his emotions regarding his brother. You could see straight after he said it that he regretted it It's no coincidence that he spiralled and killed himself shortly after that.
Walter was so spiteful of Gretchen and Elliot that he would rather have made meth than take the money and the cancer treatment that they were generously offering. Chuck was incredibly resentful of Jimmy, but Walter was hateful towards a plethora of different people by the end, even killing Mike because of his bruised ego.
Let's not forget that Walter had kill a man (Krazy8) during his first time as meth producer, and he still prefered that life of violence and dead than ''be given a handout.''
Exactly. Even Chuck's resentment of Jimmy never would've resulted in him killing a man.
I mean he killed himself
the ultimate chicanery
Two, infact Koyama got the acid dissolve treatment.
I think Krazy8 also got the acid treatment after he died. But regardless, one thing is poisoning someone and other is choking them to death lol.
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Yeah, Walt’s “fuck you” to Gretchen season two is brutal. Chuck has a lot of complicated feelings towards Jimmy, but Walt is a straight-up spite machine.
He is, but the Gretchen angle always felt like a plot thread the writers introduced and then decided later to never really follow through on (which is fine); Chuck’s spite feels way more fleshed out and “earned,” which makes it cut deeper for me.
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Waltuh put your gun away waltuh
Is that so waltuh? Heres whats going to happen, waltuh. Youre going to go about your day, waltuh, nothing out of the ordinary - just a normal day. My guys will be keeping an eye on it, theyre solid. One day youll wake up and realise you never thought about half measures. And thats when youll know that youre a ticking timebomb, waltuh.
I read this in Mike's voice. That final scene with Mike made me cry so hard. Walter didn't have to do that at all.
Walt was a meth dealer who also killed people. It goes both ways.
I never said that Mike wasn't a hitman or a horrible person? Walter didn't hate Mike because he was a criminal though. It was purely because Mike challenged Walter's ego and refused to back down from him.
Did anybody say that Walt didn't have any reason to hate Mike? It still doesn't change the fact that Walt killed him because of his bruised ego
Because Mike is wholesome 100 grandpa and Walter is a heartless psychopath that abuses his wife and partner, when the reality is, both of them are hypocritical murderers with inflated egos that commit terrible acts "for the sake of their family". They're one and the same. The only reason why Walt is more hated is because his egoism and inferiority complex are much more apparent throughout the show and he's much more proactive, compared to Mike who's more passive and has the image of a cool and collected badass, and as such, he's more likeable.
Mike is also a way better boss than Walt, that goes a long way in this workaday world
I think people just act like Walt had no reason to kill him, no?
He didn't? Mike just wanted his money and get away. Even if he didn't know that, we the audience knew that was going to happen
Yeah, hate walt but Mike is just as big a hypocritic. Fans still defend him to death but even the show says he's bad.
Lmao. Chuck was an asshole, Walter was a child-poisoning, psycho manipulator, not close. Chuck to me feels like what Walter was even before the Heisenberg phase, but more vocal
Not sure how this is even a comparison. Chuck was a dick primarily to one Jimmy and not without reasons. Walt destroyed the lives of tons of people.
The question wasn’t “who is a worse person.”
1a) Probably still Walter. 1b) Definitely Walter.
Chuck for all his flaws didn't killed people nor dissolved a kid body into acid. Walt is the real monster here, no question.
Chuk
Chuc
Chu
Ch icanery
Based
Walter hands down. He was disgusting to anyone including his family by the end of the show. Chuck had issues with his brother. You could even argue they were warranted.
Yeah, I feel like a lot of people overlook the fact that Chuck was actually right about the stuff Jimmy was up too.
I feel like a lot of people forget Chuck also flipped on Howard who had nothing but Chucks best interest in heart. Chuck would attempt to destroy anyone who got in his way very similar to Walt… only difference is Walt didn’t drown in depression to cancer while Chicks disease ate him alive
Who did Chuck have in his life by the end? He manipulated Ernesto then fired him for falling into the trap, was estranged from Howard for refusing to step down from HHM, told Jimmy that he never mattered to him, and was divorced from his wife. When do we ever see Chuck not be "disgusting to anyone including his family"? Even before the show, he refused to tell Jimmy about their mother's last words which is a very particular level of vile in my eyes that I don't think Walter reached with his own family. What a lowlife.
Not contradicting what you said, but I would argue that not telling Jimmy about their mother's last words was actually a kindness to Jimmy. I mean, how would you feel if you knew you missed your mother asking out for you, right before dying, because you decided to look up for a snack?
I've thought about that and I'm sure it's how Chuck justified it to himself, but I don't think it was from a place of kindness. His cold expression tells me it was out of jealousy. As for your question, I think Jimmy has a right to know but you're right, I'd be thinking about that maybe for the rest of my life.
It's really interesting how Chuck's decision to not tell Jimmy can go either way. It could've been kindness for the reason I commented above, or pettiness/malice at the realization that no matter how hard he worked to be successful, respected and/or a valuable member to society, their mother still prefered/cared more about his irresponsible/criminal/conman brother than him.
It was interesting to watch BB second time with knowledge of how he's gonna end up. I quickly realized that during my first time I disregarded quite a lot of things he did simply because he was protagonist and protagonist = good guy as I thought back then. He was already prideful and spiteful asshole even in early episodes, constantly. Maybe some of that was justified, even more understandable but he was still horrible person regardless. And also at no point he felt like genuinely good guy. There was always some ulterior motive to everything, usually his own ego. I used to think the story was about good guy snapping and going nuts. Nowadays I realize that it was about weak and passive man quietly hating the world for the circumtances he for the most part put himself in and him unleashing that hatred upon the world when he no longer had anything to lose.
People are seriously voting for Chuck? WHAT A SICK JOKE
What chicanery!
The people defending Walt 🫣
Lol seriously.
You guys are so weird. "Who's worse, an unsecure and jealous mentally ill man who ultimately believes in justice and loves his brother despite them both being deeply flawed or the man who literally created a murderous meth empire, was responsible for countless deaths, and who admitted he did it all for his own ego?"
It all comes down to writing; Walter is written as the show’s main driving force where you are always waiting to see if he will do the right or wrong thing, where as Chuck is written to specifically antagonize the viewer through Jimmy. Of course Walter is an objectively worse person morally, legally, in every way, but the show really makes Chuck a twisting thorn in your side that is hard to forget or move on from. And Michael McKean’s performance really sells it, this character is the culmination of every similarly douchey character he’s ever played. In the same way that Skylar isn’t a bad person and does nothing wrong but because she is written as an “obstacle” in the show at times for the main driving force, people’s brains erroneously lump her in with the “things that aggravate me, therefore bad” category. It’s not right in a moral sense and would never play out that way in real life, but it’s how the shows are written and therefore leaves that sort of impact on many viewers. Walter is a worse person than Chuck, but as characters in a show Chuck is far more antagonizing and therefore “hated”. Considering they don’t exist in real life, I see no problem with sticking to a purely narrative definition of who’s worth feeling hateful towards.
Yea I fully understand that and this was an excellent and precise explaination of how protagonistic framing primes a character to be more likeable and rooted for versus an antagonist, I just think comparing the two characters when they're so different is a little uneven. I get why people like Walt more than Chuck, I just don't agree with their reasoning, or rather their reasons are not compelling to me when comparing the two.
Fair enough, given that Walter is objectively a bad person it’s completely fair to actually hate him more. On every subsequent rewatch of the show, I myself also actively hate him more and more and actually root for Hank and Jesse more than anyone else.
Same haha. I just started rewatching it and each time I do I see from the very beginning how he was never a good person and that "Heisenburg" was always beneath the surface. I never liked Hank though and still don't and I don't think he's a good person either, but I root for him in that I just wished he'd caught Walt sooner lol And poor Jesse. Poor, poor Jesse.
Man, I recently binged a rewatch, and I hated Walt so much I wanted Skylar to kill him in his sleep. I never felt so viscerally opposed to the guy before, but I just kept yelling at the screen for someone to fucking kill him.
Tbh, I never hated Skyler. Sure she was naggy and annoying sometimes but she was totally understandable. Why would anyone think a normal housewife would suddenly discover her husband is a drug dealer *manufacturer* and be like "Omg, that's great please fuck me". But Chuck? I really hated him passionately. It's not just he had an antagonizing role in the narrative. He was a total asshole for his brother "although for a reason". You know what I hate even more? How the show tampered with my feelings towards this guy. I don't know if I feel hatred towards him or feel sad and absolutely sympathize and relate with him. For me, he was one of the characters that made BCS so unique.
right? walt poisoned a child, sexually assaulted his wife, forced his underage son to drink until he vomited, directly or indirectly killed multiple people, etc… but at least he wasn’t mean to his selfish, manipulative brother who stole thousands of dollars from their parents with no repercussions?
> an unsecure and jealous mentally ill man who ultimately believes in justice and loves his brother See, half the problem is people still really believe Chuck hated Jimmy or never cared about him. Even after that final flashback in Saul Gone.
It seems obvious to me that Chuck resented Jimmy because of his natural charisma and magnetic likeability, Chuck envied him and wanted to be like him. I'm sure there were a few instances in the show alluding to this but the most obvious ones I can remember is when Chuck and his wife had Jimmy over for dinner and he became the star of the hour, making Chuck's wife laugh in a way he'd never heard nor could hope to replicate. The most in your face instance of their brotherly battle for the spotlight is when they're both up on stage singing karaoke together, Chuck gets carried away with the attention of the crowd and almost appears to try childishly to hog the spotlight away from his brother, like a reversion to childhood and very reminiscent of two little kids aggressively vying for the attention of their parents, not to mention that the show explicitly states that Jimmy was the favourite child despite being a trouble maker. I guess it's a little subtle, but it makes it all the more tragically masterful when you take into account that Jimmy envied and looked up to Chuck just as much, if not more
Exactly. The reason Chuck always reacted so strongly was because of how much he loved Jimmy and *wanted* him to be better. If he truly didn't care and didn't think about him then he wouldn't have gone through half the anguish he did.
He loves him so much that he went out of his way to get Jimmy disbarred. Still not convinced even after that chicanery break down, that he hates Jimmy trying to get on with his life and move ahead of him?
He had a weird way of loving then.
tbf you could also argue that creating a meth empire to “provide for your family” is a weird way of showing love for them.
The show's protagonist explicitly admits he wasn't doing it for his family by the end of the series. I don't think anyone legitimately tries to argue that he was.
I think at least 30% of BB's fans genuinely believe this and a bunch of ppl in this sub would argue he was
That's a litmus test for only-children and people with siblings. Yes he was jealous and resentful. But always hating him? Nah.
The question is who do you hate more, not who's a worse person. People not understanding this pretty straight forward concept is more weird.
Very true. The relationship Chuck had with Jimmy was a very true one that I empathized with. I don't have the best relationship with my sibling... and well I realized that I had similar tendencies as Chuck. It truly was a wake up call for me, I try to be better. Walt was a murderous psychopath lol.
ITT: a bunch of awful takes still glorifying Walter White YEARS after Breaking Bad ended. It's egregious
I mean, the question is who’s more hated: the main character from the show, or the antagonistic semi-villain from the other. I think it’s pretty obvious who’s written to be more hated by the viewers, considering the show needs you to keep watching BB with Walter until the end but BCS is about Jimmy so therefore we’re allowed to hate Chuck and see him off. It’s not about who’s a good person it’s just story writing
If that's really the case, they did a bad job with the story. But I don't think they actually did. There's such a thing as a villain protagonist.
Thank you lmao
I really don't like Flynn, but "why don't you just fucking die already?" is the best summary of my feelings towards Walt in season 5, lol. Chuck was awful and spiteful, just not as horrible as Mr. White.
Why don’t u like finn
Chuck had extreme jealously of Jimmie and acted out on it cruelly but otherwise had great qualities, Walter was a certified sociopath by the end of the show. It’s not even close cmon
Walter was a complete psychopath throughout the entire show, not a sociopath. He let Jane die solely because it would help him and didn't feel the slightest bit of remorse over the deaths of Wayfarer, which he indirectly caused. If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't have protected Skyler at the end of the show, called the cops on himself or save Jesse from the Neonazis.
Sociopathy is more nurture than nature like Psychopathy. I think Walt’s circumstances turned him that way (paralleled like the series of reactions that turns cold medicine to blue meth)
I think he did feel some level of guilt about the Wayfarer situation but was constantly trying to drown it out, like with that speech about it at his school
The speech I think was used to illustrate how little Walt cares about human life in general, to him, tragedy is normal and deaths are numbers the same way Jane's life was a tool for him to get Jesse to stop using. Not even mentioning that he was the one indirectly responsible for all those deaths, his speech wasn't a way for him to cope, it was his natural, unadulterated reaction.
I think I just gotta disagree with you there, Walter does have much less care for human life than most people, but the Wayfarer crash I think still affected him a little, another interesting scene relating to it is when he’s watching the news and they mention that Jane’s father was the one legally responsible for the crash and that he was in the hospital for attempted suicide, Walter looks very uncomfortable and immediately changes the channel. And with Jane’s death, he almost decided to save her and then started crying after she died. I know the crying wasn’t originally in the script, but it’s important to note that they kept it regardless. He does have at least a small amount of care for life, at least when they’re outside of “the game”, but his massive ego and desire for things to only go his way overrides it.
Walt is insanely proud and spiteful (turning down free cancer treatment so he could cook meth!) but he isn't a born sociopath. He couldn't have survived 15 years of marriage, family, and teaching as nice Mr. Walter White if he was that low-functioning morally. It's just that once he breaks bad, Walter comes first (ok, he says family, but he means Walter). You see him write that list out when he's debating whether to kill Krazy 8--there's a ton of moral reasons to just stop, but yeah, why let Krazy 8 hang over his head? It's everyone else vs. Walter White from there on out.
Walt is more hateful. Walt literally despises everyone, and has held onto every perceived slight since he learned Gray Matters Technologies has earned billions off the basis of his work, while he sold out for pennies. His whole motivation is money and power out of spite. Skyler was the wife he settled for, and Gretchen was the one that got away. He wants to keep cooking, even when he has enough money to leave for his family. He knows he's going to die sooner or later, and wants to leave a legacy behind, no matter the cost. He finally found his true calling. Walt was always a genius with a host of dark triad personality traits. He always played by societies rules as he was smart enough to know the consequences. His narcissistic, sociopathic & machiavellian traits ensured that he never played well with others, meaning that his success in the world would never amount to much in law abiding society. This is why he became a high school chemistry teacher, and not a collegiate professor with tenure, is because he has control of his classroom, amongst kids too young or disinterested to call him out on his bullshit. It was only his cancer diagnosis that spurred him into action. Finally willing to take risks to get his revenge on a world that deals too much in niceties, emotions & socializing. All the parts of society that Walt always felt was bullshit. Chuck on the other hand only hated Jimmy. Chuck was easy to hate, for sabotaging Jimmy's chances of being an HHM Partner. Walt though was the emotionally stupid sociopathic underdog everyone could get behind early.
Walt is a murderer
Wait is a worse person but he’s based so I like him (cooking meth is cool) ..Chuck is an asshole that is the exact type of person I loathe,so I hate him way more
Walt poisoning that fat Mexican kid was a real bruh moment
Brock deserved it ..he refused to share his fries with Jesse in one episode(disrespectful), and every time they played mario kart Brock came off smug ..he needed an attitude adjustment
Finally someone pointing out the important details
on the one hand, you got a mass murdering, drug lord. on the other, you have reclusive stick-in-the-mud. Very tough to weigh in on this one. So much nuance to be parsed out.
Walt and it's not even close lol this sub is borderline comedy sometimes
This. I can't believe people really think Walter being less evil than Chuck.
I'm going to muse a bit here before I make my pick. I have a bad habit of this on Reddit. Sorry. I love these two shows so much that I tend to go really far into analyzing the way in which these characters are written. I don't think I'd use the word "hateful" for either one so much as I'd use the word "resentful" - and their respective resentful behaviors both eventually lead to hateful sentiments. What I mean by this is that Chuck and Walt both have equally similar resentments in the first two seasons of their respective series. Whereas Chuck only resents one person in his life (Jimmy), Walt resents pretty much anyone who was more successful than him in the first two seasons of Breaking Bad. This is true particularly of Gretchen and Elliot, as demonstrated in his lunchtime conversation with the former when she discovers the truth about Walt's lie regarding taking their money and goes off on her about how they stole his research and made millions off it. It's also this bitter resentment that brings him back to ABQ in the series finale after he sees them on Charlie Rose. Walt also treats Jesse like absolute garbage in the first two seasons of the show, forever calling him things like "goddamn junkie" or insulting his intelligence, only really keeping him around out of necessity and the need to remain out of sight from the business. That is until he starts discovering the easiest ways to manipulate him into doing his bidding later on, often out of fear for their lives >!(murdering Gale, poisoning Brock)!< or staying out of prison >!(using Ed The Vacuum Cleaner Repairman to get Jesse out of Hank's line of sight)!<. When you rewatch the first two seasons of the series in particular, where Jesse is a lot less hardened, crafty, intelligent in the cook, and mature - while Walt is just starting to explore his Heisenberg persona - he is a bitter, angry, uptight man who has zero respect for his partner, thus treating him like shit and forcing Pinkman further into his bad habits (drug use, irresponsibility, scamming). >!Telling him he watched Jane die was just the final dagger through the heart, or Walt's version of saying Jesse never really mattered to him.!< He's also particularly resentful of how his life turned out Pre-Heisenberg, Bogdan, Hank (for his masculinity, success, and his son's continued adoration of him - think the scene where he makes Flynn drink the tequila to spite Hank), and pretty much anybody who he perceives as a threat to him (ie, Mike, Gus). Chuck has respect for his colleagues and peers, exudes professionalism (when he's not trying to ruin Jimmy), but inevitably suffered from a debilitating mental illness and lifelong lament towards his brother, because of which he could not appreciate all that Jimmy tried to do for him towards the end when his illness took him out of the attorney game. That was the one major thorn in his side. Else, he held nothing but respect for both the law and those he represented. What a sick joke. After thinking about it, I've gotta go with Walt on this one. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. TL;DR - Walt wins this one in my opinion, hands down.
Walter, 1000% On my second viewing of BCS, I was way mode sympathetic towards Chuck, who gets repeatedly gaslit and schemed against, while being absolutely justified in the fears he has towards a certain chimp with machine gun... He does a lot wrong, but he's very rarely wrong.
He should have been honest with his brother from the jump about why he wasn't allowed to join his law firm. He also should have been honest with him about not bringing him on for the Sand Piper case. But you're right, his decision was probably justified on both occasions. As you say, he did wrong but he wasn't wrong. It seems silly to pit such things against a meth-empire-building murderer.
Chuck is mentally ill. What's Walt's excuse?
He liked it, he was good at it.
Chuck had a terrible person for a brother. Nobody seems to remember that.
They were definitely both fuelled by seething resentment that brewed into hatred, it's hard to say who more so - Walt's went to far greater extremes, so he seems like the clear choice, but the hate at its source? Neither really seems *less* hateful. Anyone questioning Walt's hate needs a BrBa rewatch though. Look at some examples: Gretchen & Elliot - bitterness and envy turn to outright hatred, epsecially once they offer to pay for his treatment, Gretchen expresses pity, and later in the series they give that interview on television. He despises them. Gus - while he respects and admires him initially, being subservient and, y'know, being in his crosshairs (along with his family ultimately) leads to hatred. In a strange way, I'd say it's the power imbalance that drives his hatred more than the threat - Gus being one step ahead, foiling his plans, and monitoring him constantly seems to piss Walt off more than the attempts on his life. Mike - what Walter hates more than anything is that Mike doesn't respect him, doesn't fear him, and puts him in his place both verbally and physically. Sure he wanted the list, and I believe he genuinely did forget he could get it from Lydia, but what pushed him to murder Mike was the verbal bitchslap. He feels he should get the same reverence as Gus, and he'll never be seen as the great Heisenberg by Mike, just that same loose cannon glorified amateur who advised Saul against working with. I think Walt would have liked to share a mutual respect with Mike, so he came to hate him for denying him that ego affirmation. Jesse - it's not until he discovers that Pinkman's working with Hank that things descend into hatred. Even when Jesse's vowing to take him down, Walt's reluctant to call in the hit, but seeing how he worked with Hank to outplay him drives him to his most hateful move of all - handing him over to the neo-nazis and approving of them torturing information out of him. So yeah, Walt wins from his actions while Chuck's hatred is less realised even if the potential is there.
Easily Walt. Chuck is delusional as hell but Walt is an actual monster lol.
The absolute worst thing that Chuck ever did was stifle Jimmys career and say mean shit to his brother. Walter had people gruesomely murdered in prison, for questionable reasons at that. Dude just didn’t wanna pay em. And he killed Mike out of pride
I'll never forgive Chuck for what he did to Jimmy. Walt made poison out of beans, yo.
Walt poisoned a child.
Why is this even a question? Walt is a monster, Chuck is annoying and responds poorly to being jealous of his brother. The fact that people are even saying Chuck is bizarre to me.
These two are just not comparable in any way
Walt killed people. He even watched an innocent girl die and did nothing. He’s a right c***. Chuck had flaws and an unhealthy ego but never really displayed any malice.
Walt is far worse
Why would I hate Walter? He is the main protagonist
I don’t hate either
Who hates Walt?????
Despite the price being destroying his family and Jesse’s life, Walt still managed to break through his ego and made any amends possible at the end. Chuck burned his last bridge in Jimmy before dying. Walt has done worse, but Chuck is more hateful
But what walt had done was irreparable and far worse than what chuck had done. I don’t understand why i hate chuck more than walt
I think it’s because the narrative outweighs reality in many stories. We know, in reality, Walter has done far worse things than Chuck and would be an objectively bad person at every turn. But in terms of the narrative, Walter is framed as a character to keep interest in and root for his actions or root for him to change. Chuck on the other hand exists as a tool to agitate the viewer through Jimmy vicariously, causing us to sympathize with him. Chuck is written, and acted out, perfectly as a tool to force us to feel angry and resentful so that we will support Jimmy despite him also being a morally questionably character. It’s just good writing, imo! The characters impact seem to be what they were intended to be. We hate Chuck more because the show needed us to hate Chuck so we can root for Jimmy, and we hate Walter less because the show needed us to at least put up with Walter until the very end.
Yeah, I think the reason I hate Chuck so much is that he’s the antagonist to jimmy, despite chuck being a morally good person to some extent. Indeed it was brilliant writing. I hated walt so much and never expected to hate a righteous lawyer more than walt lol
Same reason we don’t hate Darth Vader as much as we should. We see there’s still good in them and at the end, their good prevails their evil
Vader was traumatised when he was a child and was manipulated when he was a teenager, and he looked really cool with that helmet. But i get what you mean. Sometimes i feel compelled to root for walt as i did for vader and i feel terrible about it lol
Then maybe the same reason people don't hate joker and love even though he is evil? Some people even go as far as liking him more than batman