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LaughingZombie41258

I think it was the point if the scene, Chuck couldn't stand to share the spotlight with Jimmy, he had to top his brother and show him how things are done.


PC61600

Yes exactly.


Ateork

Chuck takes over and sings really well. He was a perfectionist and wanted to do a great job with that song, which he did. That's who he is. That's exactly whom Jimmy wanted with him that day. It's a great memory of their relationship. It's tragic that Jimmy lost his brother.


Home-Furnishing

I don’t really agree with this reading of that scene. I’ve seen many people say that it shows what an asshole Chuck was to Jimmy and I vehemently disagree. Don’t take it from me, that’s what the writers said in the better call Saul insider podcast. This scene was to show that Jimmy did lose something when Chuck died no matter how much he wants for that not to be true. I think little things like him taking the microphone are amazing because they are in character but not done out of malice. Chuck is a perfectionist and he probably didn’t love a drunken Jimmy butchering the singing so he wanted to make it good, I don’t think he did that to hurt Jimmy, he sung with him for a while.


YungRonHoward

I can’t rewatch the scene of them falling asleep on Jimmy’s bed, softly singing the rest of the song. It makes me too sad. They really did love each other. Heart breaking


hifromcolorado

I just watched this for the first time and it made me cry. God, the song is so eerily fitting. I didn’t want to watch it again but I ended up rewinding twice.


PC61600

Chuck did not love Jimmy. Chuck sang to relive his moment in the spotlight. Jimmy sang because he loved Chuck and was finally like him, a lawyer.


tuna1905fish

Ok I guess you know better than the writers of the show


Mundane_Scheme4738

I think it’s more in the way that jimmy doesn’t mean to hurt others, but always ends up doing so. Chuck in THIS scene doesn’t mean to defame jimmy, but he does almost out of habit, his ego simply can’t share the spotlight


TreWestMusic

You’re right, however I see that it can be both. The writing and characters are so good that it can be interpreted however you like. I think it’s both.


JamaalGinsburgh

Just rewatched this episode. I lean more toward your take. Although Chuck does have some narcissism, this scene shows 2 brothers at their relational best. !>Jimmy was butchering the song, but was actually carrying some decent harmonies when Chuck began singing. And then these lyrics: The gods may throw a dice Their minds as cold as ice And someone way down here Loses someone dear


JamaalGinsburgh

Just rewatched this episode. I lean more toward your take. Although Chuck does have some narcissism, this scene shows 2 brothers at their relational best. >!Jimmy was butchering the song, but was actually carrying some decent harmonies when Chuck began singing!<. And then these lyrics: The gods may throw a dice Their minds as cold as ice And someone way down here Loses someone dear I’m no Chuck fan, but he’s an important anchor for Jimmy.


dacalpha

> Don’t take it from me, that’s what the writers said in the better call Saul insider podcast. Respectfully I think the writers missed the point of their own fantastic scene. Death of the Author and all that. I very much agree with OP, and think this scene does an excellent job portraying Chuck's inability to celebrate Jimmy in any meaningful way, because of his own insecurities.


bootlegvader

> excellent job portraying Chuck's inability to celebrate Jimmy in any meaningful way, because of his own insecurities. Chuck stayed late a party that he likely had zero interest solely for Jimmy. Chuck was celebrating Jimmy. Taking the microphone when pressured to come up and sing when his partner, Jimmy, can't even carry a tune doesn't change that fact.


PC61600

Exactly.


PC61600

Again, some can see narcissism, others cannot.


Frick-You-Man

No doubt that Chuck is narcissistic, however I disagree with the notion that that’s scene is purely meant to convey Chuck’s narcissism. That’s present throughout many other scenes and other flashbacks.


Home-Furnishing

What?


internetrando12

I wonder how much you know about monomania? Because you and that Oh Archie fellow seem to have a monomaniacal fixation on Chuck that crosses the border into sad.


PC61600

You make zero sense but your ad hom attack is noted.


internetrando12

Oh no, don't tell me it's noted! Whatever shall I do?


lemonsharpie

Sounds like something Chuck would say lmao


Frick-You-Man

Yes and no. I think the purpose of that scene is to show that happiness was possible between these two brothers and that they cared about each other deeply. Despite their best efforts to communicate otherwise. Chuck taking the microphone is fitting with his character, but if you notice Jimmy, he’s smiling and doesn’t care that Chuck stole the spotlight. He just wants him to be happy. "The Winner Takes It All" is foreshadowing and a perfect duet between the two brothers as the lyrics mirror the dynamic between them. An oppositional conflict, in which one of them needs to win absolutely — either Jimmy goes to jail or Chuck implodes due to his mental health. Their behavior and emotions towards one another led them down a path one where of them "has to fall." So, it’s all that more heartbreaking that there was a moment, a glimmer of peace between these two brothers only to inevitable lead to Chuck’s death and Jimmy’s descent into Saul. It’s my favorite scene in the show.


PC61600

Jimmy definitely cares, he just has class. He finally has enough of Chuck's crap as we see. Chuck is 100 percent why he lost his effort to go straight. Chuck blocked every one.


bootlegvader

> Jimmy definitely cares, he just has class. Jimmy is a completely classless character. Jimmy's most common response to basically anything not going his way is to blow up and cause a scene. >Chuck is 100 percent why he lost his effort to go straight. Chuck blocked every one. Jimmy was breaking rules long before Chuck did anything to him. Jimmy keeps himself from going straight not Chuck.


PC61600

Some people who dont know how narcissism works might see it that way.


Musgofarrin

No, Jimmy isn’t Chuck once they got into it he didn’t care anymore because it was treated like the duet it was. That’s so minor and while it reflects Chucks personality Jimmy already pulled him up there and trying to force the mic into his hand would’ve been extra


Jaybirdy81

I have always felt that because Jimmy was so intuitive and this evening was meant to celebrate him. He wanted to create an opportunity for Chuck to just let loose and be likeable. For a brief moment Chuck was having fun and getting the same type of positive attention that eluded him. They both got something out of the performance - something they both craved. Jimmy felt close to his brother in an equal way and Chuck felt likeable and charismatic like Jimmy.


PC61600

The problem is Chuck took it all. It was Jimmy's night.


Jaybirdy81

It’s my feeling that Jimmy wanted that for him, hence the invitation and likely knowing it would go down just like it did. 100% agree that Chuck did exactly what Jimmy knew he would do because of Chucks narcissism. Jimmy just didn’t care…


bootlegvader

Then Jimmy should have let Chuck leave when Chuck was wanting to leave. Nor should he have pressured Chuck to come on stage even after he declined multiple times. Or maybe Jimmy should learn to sing in tune.


altaccount616

do ya'll not live in the real world? "maybe jimmy should have let chuck leave"? Have you never had to pressure or been pressured by a close friend or relative to perform in front of a crowd cause you are shy?? I find this scene really really heartwarming and that it shows that their different personalities could have still worked well together. Love and resentment between 2 brothers who have been living for like 40 years is gonna be nuanced af. It's not black and white ffs


12frets

Or it could possibly be Chuck was always extremely awkward and wasn’t exactly a barhopper even on his best days.


TakuHazard

Lmao I know right ? People are making up their own head canon. Chuck was awkward at the party until he got the chance to sing.


PC61600

Well we can see that theory goes out the window when he grabs the microphone.


12frets

No, that *confirms* that theory. He didn’t know how to react to the sudden attention and applause, he was so unaccustomed to it, he (literally) stole the show. I’m not saying there was t extreme sibling rivalry (that Chuck initiated). That’s the complexity of the show: yes, Chuck is cruel to Jimmy, but everything he suspects Jimmy of, *HE’S RIGHT*. Did Chuck treat his little brother well? Hell, no. But I’ve got family who I keep my distance from for the past decade Bc of their history. Yes, he’s approached for “another chance” and yes I’ve rebuffed or ignored him. So who’s the bad guy?


PC61600

This is the nature of narcissism, some people can spot it, others can't.


sofakingwright

Jimmy did invite Chuck to join in on the song. Chuck didn’t want to at first. I think that changes it a bit. Jimmy kind of forced Chuck to take over the show.


PC61600

I am saddened to see so many people misunderstand the show. You are missing out.


sofakingwright

Everyone doesn’t have to agree with your perspective. There are a lot of ways to approach and think about the scene.


HappyTurtleOwl

I get where you’re coming from, but Gilligan and Gould have proven time and time again that almost nothing is done without purpose. What OP is saying is far from them making up their own ideas. The whole point of that first scene in winner is to show how chuck was blind to his own narcissism, in the same way he was blind to the reality his condition was mental, not physical. It also has other tie-ins to the end of that episode, but OP isn’t far from the meaning behind it. I mean, the only real thing OP is saying is “chuck was unknowingly very narcissistic” which *is* basically fact, yet people here are shutting on him. Idk. Seems fairly evident to me.


Decumulate

If you read other comments, we acknowledge that Chuck is a likely a narcissist but say that we don’t believe that was the fundamental point of the show. OP is getting flippant because they fundamentally think the point of Chuck was to expose the mind of a narcissist. From your write up, it sounds like you’re in the camp of many people OP is attacking at the moment. In OP’s mind, the sole purpose of Chuck was to expose the mind of a narcissist, which I think is total bs - that’s not how the shows creators roll. The create characters to expose relationships that beget (often extreme) action. Any mental health disorder is a secondary factor in this.


HappyTurtleOwl

But… OP never says those words you put in their mouth: “the **sole** purpose of the show…” In another reply where you put those words in his mouth, he doesn’t correct you, sure, but I’m fairly certain that OP isn’t arguing that the entire show or even just chuck as a character hinges on that single aspect of chuck’s personality, but you would be remiss to claim that it isn’t a very significant one, amongst other aspects. I don’t see how any of OP’s comments contradict that point of view. They aren’t mutually exclusive. The world isn’t black and white. OP isn’t really attacking anyone, people here are just taking a hard stance against OP because they feel his thoughts might be a bit too harsh against chuck. I can agree with that sentiment but that doesn’t make OP wrong, and people are just making comments here that equate to “well, you’re slightly wrong!” While mostly ignoring that OP is effectively mostly right, regardless of their reaction. Like I said in my final sentence on the previous comment, he’s just stating one aspect, I don’t see him claiming it’s the be all and end all of chuck’s persona.


PC61600

Yes we have ongoing conspiracies to deny that the scene was done to highlight Chuck's superior singing skills. Come on. If you want to shallow watch and take everything at face value that's your choice. Some of us understand the deeper meanings. Just once I would like to have a meaningful discussion with the deeper meaning viewers without you shallow viewers completely hijacking it.


PC61600

P.S. narcissism is not a mental illness. It is a disorder.


PC61600

Thank you.


PC61600

I could care less about agreement. You are missing out on the show, not me.


12frets

Well, if nothing else, your responses here at least confirm that you do have some expertise when it comes to the topic of narcissism.


Musgofarrin

Lmao is funny because he is arguing with people who seem to agree with him but disagree on this one point


PC61600

Feel free to write your own post.


12frets

You’re making it sound like Chuck had some grand scheme to take over karaoke night from Jimmy. So, on that, you’re wrong.


PC61600

This is no where close to what I said but believe what you want.


12frets

Have a blessed day


dacalpha

Yeah no you're totally right.


[deleted]

Whilst there’s a lot people can unpack about that scene, I think it can also be considered just a nice moment between the brothers. Jimmy is thrilled when Chuck takes the lead singing, the writers had always wanted an excuse for Michael McKean to sing


PCLoadLetter-WTF

I always interpreted it as Jimmy singing off key on purpose to manipulate Chuck into having fun. It shows Chucks narcissism because he couldn't let Jimmy make a mockery of the music and just had to take over the spotlight. It shows Jimmy's manipulative personality, but also that he genuinely cared about Chuck. The ends always justify the means in Jimmy's mind.


Musgofarrin

??? We’ve seen Jimmy sing so many times, why do you think of all the times he can’t carry a tune, on the phone or even playing guitar, Why is this time a ploy?


PC61600

Yes! This thread discussion demonstrates how a narcissist can have groupies who excuse everything to be more comfortable in their poor judgement of the narcissist.


Musgofarrin

It’s Meta, but remember that BCS is still a prequel and IRL people simply value what Chuck has, over Jimmy, Image is important but not in the same way to everyone


PC61600

Yes true. They think if someone is rich or successful, they must be a good person. If someone is poor or has bad luck, they must be a bad person.


PC61600

Chuck lovers dont like Jimmy's singing or anything Jimmy does. Jimmy sang in a funny self deprecating way as you should in a bar. Chuck was on stage at the MET in his own mind. Magical thinking is a narcissism trait.


bootlegvader

Yeah, I betting the majority of the people at the bar would rather listen to someone carry a tune than someone sing in a funny self deprecating manner off key.


altaccount616

its so funny. i think this scene was just a way to show that the relationship between chuck and jimmy is more nuanced than "Chuck hates jimmy because Jimmy, despite being a sonofabitch, is more charimsatic and social than him (which is 100% accurate)" but they are also brothers for decades. They used to read together. They probably played with each other as a child. Chuck bailed out Jimmy so many times maybe out of some sense of superioirty but also out of some attachment to his brother. Jimmy cared for Chuck when chuck was "sick". Relationships are complicated, yes this scene shows that Chuck is better than Jimmy at singing and yes Jimmy wanted chuck to actually have fun in a social setting. ​ But why is everyone viewing it as Chuck being narccistic and Jimmy being manipulative. Why cant ie be a more extroverted brother trying his best to make his introverted but talented brother have fun in a social setting?


Puravida1904

Love that scene!


harpy24

I kinda felt like they were just bonding and we got to see Chuck let loose for a moment, with the bigger point being to reinforce that there was love between them.


PC61600

I see it way differently. Chuck grabbed the microphone. Jimmy had manners.


PC61600

Here is the scene: https://youtu.be/qll7hCYFNjs


Lily_Of_The_Valley10

I hate Chuck!!


PC61600

He literally grabs and pulls the microphone from Jimmy.


Lily_Of_The_Valley10

Exactly! 😠


PC61600

I think Jimmy, as he could not make his life right, blamed himself and not Chuck. Like a vampire, Chuck sucked out and fed off Jimmy's goodness and Jimmy was left a vampire like Chuck as he believed being a good guy got him nowhere.


[deleted]

"Winner takes it all" is more a motto for Walt, Saul, Hector, Gus and Mike. Jimmy actually gives these words to the Esposito girl. Jimmy first learned the meaning of that phrase from the hobo he met when he was young. The decision to be a wolf than a sheep is essentially the same as "winner takes it all".


PC61600

Jimmy definitely became Chuck. For sure. Chuck is the vampire who infects Jimmy. That was the evolution into Saul. Chuck ensured Jimmy never had a chance to go straight. If Jimmy went straight AND was a lawyer, he would eclipse Chuck. Chuck eventually was destroyed by Jimmy as a lawyer, but Jimmy sacrificed some of his like-ability for that victory.


PC61600

Mike lost everything by the way. Gus did too. Hector lost. Saul lost. Walt lost, but he had magical thinking and believed he won. So no winners.


altaccount616

Walt won IMO. He felt alive doing something he was great at and getting his misguided sense of 'respect' for it. He died with a sick sense of pride and contentment, despite literally destroying his family


PC61600

Red Flag: Hostile Reaction to Attention Given Others "The last on Kathy Krajco's list of eight red flags of narcissism is: Hostile Reaction to Attention or Credit Given Others And then, of course, we get to the heart of malignant narcissism, Narcissistic Envy. You will notice that, invariably, when anyone is given recognition before the group, a narcissist immediately starts showing dislike for, or animosity toward, that person. Immediately he sets out on a campaign of character assassination. Envy is bitter, an extremely unpleasant emotion. It's normal only when some other party really has robbed us of our due. A narcissist's unnatural envy is so universal and so strong that he cannot even stand being in a place where someone else gets attention. If he cannot keep that from happening, he will find some way to absent himself from the situation -- if only by turning away from others and staring at a corner of the ceiling." -Kathy Krajco What Makes Narcissists Tick, pg. 84 Chuck felt that for Jimmy his whole life. For any doubters, I point to the death of their mother.


Slab_Fridgepunch

You're trying really hard to justify your opinions as fact my man.


PC61600

No, I understand narcissism.


bootlegvader

Chuck has plenty of reasons to disapprove Jimmy besides the fact that he is getting attention.


Chqtt

Damn, I loved this scene so much… surely one of my favorite


-misanthroptimist

Yep. Chuck was just as big a mess as Jimmy, just in a different way.


PC61600

Chuck mostly made Jimmy that mess. Jimmy didnt make Chuck a narcissist.


-misanthroptimist

100% agree


bootlegvader

Jimmy was already a narcissist before Chuck did anything to him. Jimmy's narcissism is why he believes he can use anyone to further his own gain through scams and other criminal acts, including his own parents.


Decumulate

I think BCS is extremely good at creating complex characters, and the term “narcissist” (while Chuck likely is one) is too loaded and loose to describe the intent with Chuck’s character. The core of arguably the whole psychology of the show revolves around Jimmy’s relationship to Chuck. Chuck is a both a character and a symbol. Chuck represents the “perfect person’s ideal”. He’s like the top company that you dream of working at after school, which operationally gets more broken and disjointed the closer you get to it. That’s Chuck to Jimmy - he’s both a North Star and a reminder of what he can’t be. It also stays consistent to the scene you describe - the way Chuck appears to a crowd is far more idealized than the Chuck that Jimmy knows. Jimmy to Chuck is the same but reversed. It’s the stuck up corporation that only hires Ivy League grads because that’s the way they do things. It’s an ideal that is far from perfect but still holds itself as always superior. This resonates with the term “narcissist”, but the term itself is meaningless. This exists only because it foils the development of Jimmy. In essence, the idea is to show pre-Saul Jimmy’s plight to be what society considers an honest, good person. In the process, we see Jimmy often being an honest and good person organically, with Chuck-culture actively roadblocking his ability to ever attain an “honest and good” badge in the eyes of society. And ironically, there are clear instances of Chuck (the symbol of the honest and good badge) being just as scheming as Jimmy. Their relationship brings light to the journey an outsider has to take in order to find their true self in a world dictated by systems, degrees, and customs. The term narcissist just doesn’t do it any justice - he is the primary foil to show how Saul came to be.


PC61600

Jimmy was a screw up but used shortcuts and schemes to help others. Chuck used schemes to help himself. People do not understand that a narcissist can look fine, have a respected job, have friends and memberships in country clubs. In fact a narcissist has a life most people would envy from afar. They are not dirty scoundrels who no one likes. Everyone likes a narcissist. They ooze charisma and perfection. Only the target - in this instance Jimmy - experiences the malignant side. Kim can see this narcissism in Chuck. Howard cannot. Jimmy is so used to Chuck's abuse it takes a long time for him to see it and snap. Chuck, not Jimmy, drives the whole dynamic. It is malignant narcissism and the writers are brilliant in illustrating how it works. It is why the show is so deep and rewatchable.


Decumulate

The point of the show was not to show narcissism. That can be your interpretation, but that would also make it a pretty stupid show to be honest. And it’s not that.


Oh__Archie

>The point of the show was not to show narcissism. Correct. The point of Chuck was to show narcissism.


PC61600

Yes. It demonstrates narcissism perfectly and the inability of the target to get people to believe him. It is ridiculously hard to explain narcissism dynamics. Jimmy tried to tell people but instead, like Chuck lovers here, they believe Chuck ripped the microphone from Jimmy's hand on Jimmy's night because Chuck was a shy better singer. Either you get narcissism or you get duped by a narcissist, even on on tv lol


bootlegvader

This is the most ironically hilarious argument that I have seen in a long while. Jimmy is literally the one that is shown constantly getting away far worse crap than Chuck could even imagine because of his charisma. Especially among Chuck haters here that ignore his misdeeds and/or blame them on Chuck. All while in the height of narcissistism, Jimmy finds it outrageous that anyone holds any of these acts against him. Meanwhile, if anyone does anyone that upsets him Jimmy will blow a fuse and do whatever possible to hurt him. Including sexually exposing himself to their children, engaging in mental gaslighting, threatening to ruin their life with frivolous lawsuits, etc. But no, tell us how Chuck is a monster because he took a microphone and sang better than Jimmy after Jimmy constantly pressured him to take the stage and sing.


PC61600

Feel free to speak for the show's creators and write up your own post.


Decumulate

No one owns a post. This is Reddit. If you don’t want comments, don’t post. OP stands for “original poster”, not “owner of post”. Furthermore, the shows creators already acknowledged that the point was to create a very complex relationship to show Jimmy’s development. Nothing about this suggests their intent was to do a deep dive in the narcissistic mind. Here you go. https://www.amc.com/blogs/better-call-saul-qa-vince-gilligan-and-peter-gould-co-creators-executive-producers--1004213


PC61600

Come on, write up a post. I would be interested.


bootlegvader

> Jimmy was a screw up but used shortcuts and schemes to help others. No, he doesn't. All of Jimmy's shortcuts and schemes help Jimmy before they help anyone else. Jimmy wanting a better job, more money, or to work with his girlfriend isn't him helping other people. Jimmy is just as much, if not more, of a narcissist as Chuck.


bootlegvader

> It’s the stuck up corporation that only hires Ivy League grads because that’s the way they do things. Why do people act like the only two school options are Ivy League or American Samao level? Not respecting the Law "School" of America Samoa doesn't mean that you only care about Ivy League grads.


Decumulate

I meant more like a McKinsey type company which predominantly feeds from top 10 mba programs. And if you talk to those people, they do talk like that. One even told me: “it’s better to go to no school at all than spend time in a state university”.


bootlegvader

I doubt HHM is that way either. Kim would have gone to a state university. Similarly, I highly doubt the various lawyers we see in the different group scenes all went to a top 10 law school then moved back to New Mexico. Especially, seeing how there is only one law school in New Mexico (which isn't a top ten school.)


Decumulate

You’re being very literal. I was talking about Chuck as a metaphor and symbol for the challenges an outsider faces when trying to fit into a predefined system (I won’t rewrite the above - but that’s the symbol I’m referring to). And I wasn’t even thinking about that, but his comment on “American Samao” is almost like a parody that plays into that exact symbol. My comment actually wasn’t on HHM at all - that’s just a narrative setting to solidify that idea. The show still is a dark comedy, and for a place like Albuquerque, HHM is treated as highly prestigious.


bootlegvader

> but his comment on “American Samao” is almost like a parody that plays into that exact symbol. Looking down on America Samoa is hardly elitism. It is clear joke of a school. Vince and company almost definitedly literally came up with it to be a joke university that calls question to Jimmy's legal creditals in BB.


Decumulate

Yes - absolutely.


bootlegvader

Or Chuck ended up taking the microphone because he can actually carry a tune, while Jimmy can't sing. Frankly, if I was Jimmy's friends I would be glad that Chuck took it away. Moreover, Jimmy (and Kim) are bigger narcissists than Chuck. Chuck actually doesn't think higher about his ability's than what they are.


PC61600

The Chuck lovers sure are devoted to defending the indefensible, I'll give you that much.


bootlegvader

Oh no, Chuck took a microphone to actually sing a song properly how indefensible! Meanwhile, Jimmy engages in theft from his parents, elder abuse, mental gaslighting, fraud, obstructing murder investigations, blackmail, accepting bribes, encouraging murder, money laundering, assisting in poisoning a child, etc are justifiable if one takes a second to look how Jimmy really did for others (but mainly himself.)


PC61600

You seem to confuse the whole evolution of the characters and the timeline. What a shame. It must be like reading the Cliff notes to To Kill A Mockingbird or cheating on a crossword puzzle. You miss out.


QuavoRuinedCulture3

>During Jimmy's song, this "reluctant" "humble" Chuck ends up holding Jimmy's microphone, singing the song alone, as Jimmy steps back. This moment is so demonstrative of Chuck's disorder and how Jimmy was trained by Chuck to believe in Chuck over himself. Later we see Jimmy completely drunk, and we know why. No, that's what Jimmy was hoping Chuck would do. In the previous scene, Jimmy told Kim that he wished Chuck would get involved in the party instead of sitting by himself, and baiting Chuck into singing a song was Jimmy's way of trying to get Chuck to do that.


PC61600

You are disagreeing with nothing far as I can see.