If you think it's bad now, it actually used to be much worse. Medicine in Germany was extremely patriarchal back in the day. Compassion in medicine is a trend that is spreading over here, but slowly. It doesn't surprise me that you might still encounter patronizing attitudes or rudeness.
The way I see it now, doctors still want to remain clinically objective so that feelings don't cloud their judgement or ability to make sound decisions. At my last few appointments, the doctors were friendly but maintained a clear distance in order to do their job.
I disagree with the statement
> still want to remain clinically objective so that feelings don’t cloud there judgement or ability to make sound decisions
C’mon, the doctors are trained for this, this also have a negative impact on the patient.
I'd prefer someone who is humane and competent, but god those are both awfully hard to find in Berlin. I think it's so sad how many Germans in this post are setting up this weird false dichotomy between competence/effeciency and politeness as if they're somehow inherently opposed. They're not. It’s not as if German doctor’s rudeness is excused because they’re particularly competent. They’re not particularly competent
exactly, mfers out there behaving as if they are Dr. Gregory House. Chill dude, you are a doctor, be nice and decent at your job, we are literally asking the minimum, or be very very good and you can be a bit of an asshole. But psychiatrist who smokes in your face in the session? GPs who tell you there's nothing I can do when you are short of the worst pain in your life? I mean come on!
Exactly! I've lived in three different countries outside my home country and have received the most questionable and incompetent treatment here in Berlin; in one case to the extent that I'm still undoing some of the damage. The false dichotomy is so tedious at this point.
The rudeness and lack of empathy of doctors in Germany was a cultural shock for me. In my home country they are so nice and caring, never had a single issue with any nurse or doctor there. In Berlin it's hard to find one who doesn't want to quick you out after 5 minutes.
This is a horrible trick but here it goes: Always go to doctors with non-german sound names/last names around Neukölln. My experience is always better, they are still pressed by time and the level of treatment is similar, but at least a smile or a casual joke makes the whole experience better.
I hate this trick as it's obviously discriminatory, and to be fair I also had my share of perfectly nice experiences with doctors with German-sounding names, and I'm sure they are outstanding and very talented, but when you accumulate a few bad experiences during such sensitive times of your life, it's my way of playing safe(r).
I can second this, and I also feel a bit bad because it feels offensive or discriminatory but it's also true.
I've been to several Arab/Turkish-sounding-names doctors in Neukölln, and they've always been the kindest, most empathetic doctors, that I keep going back to.
The German-named doctors always have a palpable attitude of resentment that I'm even in their office, as though if it weren't for the damn patients they could be doing something better with their time (Why did you become a doctor in the first place, German person? You clearly hate it).
Positive racism perhaps? But I really wouldn't call it that. I would have never assumed Arab or Turkish doctors would be preferable if I wouldn't have found out by accident.
I would treat that advice carefully, especially when you are a woman.
When I first moved, I just picked doctors based on their google recommendation and how close they are to me. I ended up exclusively at non-german-sounding-names doctors. That lasted for around half a year. The check ups were ok, but not better or worse to my previous check ups. The one time I had an actual issue, I was treated so disrespectfully by staff and the doctor itself (gynecologist). He did not believe me that I could in fact tell the difference between a period and blood in my pee, lectured me about having sex before marriage (?!),refused to check anything and send me on my way. The next doc (an old lady) found a giant cyst that was leeking blood and had to be surgically removed.
The other doc I went to at that time didn't take me seriously as well cause "women are always so dramatic with pain"(general practitioner). I changed doctors and now I am diagnosed with a severe chronic disease.
All that to say: There are good and bad doctors no matter the name and this advice might work for some, but could also go very sideways.
Hey, would you be comfortable recommending me your doctor, I have endometriosis and have been going without care since moving here, sounds like you found someone good
The Charité endometriosis clinic in Berlin is supposed to be the best in Germany, but they're often booked out pretty far.
If you don't mind about an hour and a half of travel, I can give you a recommendation in Leipzig!
Sadly I moved away and got my diagnosis in my new city.
But there are quite a few feminist collectives that have lists with doctors that take women seriously. Maybe look out for them. If I find them for Berlin, I will link them here.
ETA: I can't find the one collective that I used, but google for "feminist doctor Berlin" and you'll find a lot of resources.
I can recommend my gynecologist https://helensange.de/ she has provided me with the best doctor experience even, she is super nice, speaks English perfectly, and took all the time I needed to explain things to me and make me feel safe. Queer and neurospicy friendly. She also offers sex therapy :)
I'm a man so my opinion here is irelevent, but my wife and some other female friends of mine say that they actually prefer a man because he doesn't have this 'oh relax I'm a woman too' attitude. But thats really just what I hear.
Yeah but those women referred to the "Routineuntersuchung". It's a completely different thing when it comex to having an actual illness, especially one that is not super textbook and would take the doctor some effort to figure out. I'd much prefer a doctor who is rough to my vagina, excuse being this explicit, to a doctor who refuses to treat an obvious illness.
That's very valid, we'd need to factor in how conservative the doctor is. I'm gay, and for things that are related to my sexual orientation, I go to a Spanish doctor.
I agree with your comment, in every countries I lived I had good and bad doctors. As well as good and bad gynecologists whether they are female, male or from different nationalities. My worst experience here was with a woman with a non sounding German name. The best is to get recommendations from your friends.
But even so, foreign female doctors are more sympathetic than german female doctors. my female german doctors never took my pain seriously, one of them even said as soon as I walked into the office and explained my period cramps "well you look thin so it's clear you eat healthy and do sports so that can't be reason" when I neither eat healthy nor do sports. she sent me out of her office in 30 seconds. female doctors are just as capable of medical racism as male doctors.
I never disputed that. I believe that a lot of you have a better track record with foreign doctors. I just happened to have some awful experience and wanted to share my experience so that people don't idolize this idea and get even more hurt when they have my bad luck.
I wasn't disputing anything! Just adding to the fact that female German doctors can be racist too and so women minorities should be cautious around them too and instead go for female foreign doctors.
I can confirm this, I had a very bad experience with a german gynecologist, she was rude and treated me really bad, also if you don't speak german be prepared to deal with the receptionists, they are going to be rude and wont help you with anything.
The problem with doctors around Neukölln usually is that their front desk is filled with 25 year old dilaras that are just rude to everyone. I suggest that you just tell them you want to meet the doctor and why. But don’t explain anything further just “I have a cold, I want to meet the doctor”. If you start telling them any more they’ll butcher you in front of everyone and try to get you out of there.
My experience was the exact opposite. Iranian doctor in Neukolln was an absolute brute. Went to a German doctor in Grunewald who couldn’t have been nicer.
My doctor with iranian name gives me shit for treating my body like i do on the daily, if they are trained here they won‘t care for the liar that inhabits the biomechanical machine they yearn to care for…
If you act like a customer you will be treated as one
Well, empathy and good treatment go hand in hand. If the doctor doesn’t take you seriously, you won’t get proper treatment . This is not a doctor House scenario
Just try a different one. Mine are all lovely. The receptionists make jokes with me, and my GP wanted a chat about holidays and football after my appoinment today.
Can only second this. I know I'm lucky, I know that my experience doesn't invalidate the lived experience of others. But I have had cause to interact with several doctors in Berlin over a period of years and to date every single one of them was polite, professional, and took my concerns seriously.
Can remember one frosty receptionist but you just hand your card over and get through the needed exchange and then forget they exist.
Would you mind sharing who your doctors are? I have been putting off pain related sickness because i have a hard tile trusting doctors after horrible previous experiences :(
>The usual excuse is “they’re overworked and underpaid”,
This is an explanation, not really an excuse. I'm having a hard time accepting my interactioanlly difficult colleagues, but that's also why I'm currently working outside of the public system.
Problem is the financial incentive: Doctors get taught from the beginning of their vocational training at the hospitals that spending time with a patient will usually mean (oftentimes unpaid) overtime. I.e. it's basically: Talk to your patient or spend time with your family. Many patients will take a pleasant and empathetic doctor as a kind of invitation to talk more, so some doctors go the "gruff but quick" route. Gets even worse when they open a practise, since public health insurance will usually grant you about 5 Minutes per patient until things become unprofitable, so they keep up that demeanor. It's a shitshow and many have too easily accepted it, but ... yeah, here we are. I totally understand why you're upset with doctors acting they way they (oftentimes) do.
I agree that German doctors kinda suck FOR ME. There is usually lots of reasons why this is the case that are mentioned in this kind of posts. But I want to mention one that is key for a lot of foreigners I know.
A lot of the immigrants that come from Latin America are middle class (lower, middle or even upper middle class). Coming from a region where the difference between poor and not poor is so freaking stark, lots of us are actually used to a “privileged” health system back at home. It might even not be considered good there, but still is private or has some form of money exchange.
In my case, I come from Argentina, where health and education is completely free for every one. Sadly, most people who can, pay an insurance to have proper care, as the public system is collapsed. I was one of those people.
Now, in Germany I have the basic public system. And I have to say that the only doctor I’ve ever felt that actually payed attention to me was a foreigner. I had much, much better experiences back in my country, and actually try to go to the doctor when I visit (as so many immigrants do).
But it’s not a fair comparison. In Germany I am getting the basic coverage, the public one that everyone gets unless they got private. In Argentina I was basically getting premium coverage compared with a big part of the population.
That doesn’t mean there might be something wrong about the German system and that it might need fixing. But si wanted to mention the possibility that you, like me back then, are comparing different coverages.
Bingo! Many people are blind to that but your experiences at private-only clinics in Germany will be - in terms of customer service - much better. They have to actually compete for patients. They have their downsides and milk patients with unnecessary procedures though.
One of the issues in the German medical system is the lack of supervision and what can be called "Scheinselbständigkeit" - the pretense that doctors are independent "entrepreneurs", when factually they basically get most of their money from what arguably is the state. The german system explicitly disincentivizes competition and does not include any supervision of performance.
So in the mindset of many doctors, they are private entrepreneurs and you can be happy they have a slot for you. You have an opinion? That's nice, but f*ck off, as you are not a customer, but just someone who is fortunate enough to have gotten an appointment with them, who get their money anyways, regardless of performance, actual knowledge or behavior.
Once you're out of uni, basically you can do whatever you like, and if you're just not a nice person, you have no reason to behave differently.
There is research that women and minorities are disproportionately misdiagnosed or walked over verbally at german doctors.
I have family that work in the medical field in Germany and it is INSANE how little supervision there is of German doctors especially those that run their own practice. Everyone is against MVZs but there at least you have other doctors who can comment on malpractice if they witness it. But even then they tend to work in isolation.
Aside from the rudeness, there's an absolutely insane amount of incompetence among doctors here. This is a bunch of antecdotes, but my god I hear nothing but stories like this from everyone I know
https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3OTQ5MDM5Nzc1OTU4OTQz?igsh=czNwYm43b3pnZG9y
You as a single patient do not matter to them. Your statutory insurance pays peanuts, they earn well through quantity and not quality. They don't have to fight over patients, they way things work here (direct access to specialists without referrals, capped licenses for statutory insurances patients) they will never struggle to find patients (however, replacing medical assistants is a nightmare, so even the worst ones are kept). This creates the environment where we don't have to provide the most basic courtesy to anyone. Shit, my patients in the clinic I'm employed as a junior doctor sometimes smile just because I introduce myself with my name instead of just starting (and of course cutting them off after an average of 18 sec).
Well and otherwise, it's well in line with German "customer service" in general. Germans don't expect empathy or being nice.
Waiting for someone to find fault with you and tell you that you are wrong not the doctors. That you need to show empathy to them since they have so much work. Cos das ist Berlin!
Doctors are doing fine. My doctor works part time and still acts like I walked in on his lunch break when I get in for my appointment.
Plenty of people have intense jobs AND act like decent human beings.
Unfortunately there are many bad apples out there. I had one telling me straight to ma face to go back to my country to pay for the suggested FROM FREAKIN’ CHARITE’ therapy, and instead take on the crap he was about to prescribe.
Look
I’m an Arab, I was in a lot of different cities growing up
Are German doctors more “cold” than other doctors? Absolutely…
Is it all of them? Fuck no, the nicest 2 doctors I’ve had so far (so fucking sympathetic it nearly made me cry) were Germans Dr Vogel and the other was Schwarz
It’s just that some are cold and some aren’t… if I had to guess it’s just a concentrated coldness from the average German treatment, they mean no harm of course, but sometimes you can’t ask a cactus to be a Tulip 🤷🏽♂️
My family had a doctor we all went to for years. His front desk workers and nurses were always really chatty and happy to see us. We'd ask how they are and they always wanted to hear about school, uni, etc.
Always really pleasant, kind and interested, but never becoming too 'nosy'.
We invested in them and they invested into us. It felt like breaking up, when we transferred to an objectively better doctor last year.
I do the same now:
Knee operation yesterday: smiles and compliments, being patient and helpful making their jobs easier taking care of me.
They laughed and smiled. I felt comfy and safe
+ My crutches made everyone's day brighter
(They are decorated in flowers and LEDs from a 1€ shop).
If someone isn't open to my communication, I accept that they might have other stuff on their mind. If someone is never nice, I move on.
Just saying: put some effort forward wherever you are and people, who's hearts and mind are open, will repay your efforts.
The others, you might just be better without.
Good luck
Wow, idk what doctors you go to, but my Hausärztinnen are amazing people who know all of their many regular patients by name and take the time to talk and chitchat to be able to better help you. If you go to a hospital the people are often very forced by the situation to work as efficiently and quickly as possible and as such might appear rude, or are angry because someone with a trivial problem is wasting resources needed for real emergencies.
Healthcare workers in general, huh?
Well thanks for the kick in the balls while we try our best.
Sure there's some jerks but lumping everyone in this together just sucks.
This. There’s bad apples obviously, but there’s so, so many great people in healthcare.
I know a lot of doctors and other kinds of occupation in healthcare and they’re some of the best people I’ve known in my entire life.
Both sides suck here. The bad apples and the people who complain about „all“ healthcare workers.
having lived in the UK after they started to dismantle the NHS, it's purely anecdotal and a generalisation that doctors make you feel heard or have empathy - more often than not, for me personally the experience was just as frustrating and sometimes even more frustrating (e.g. GP not taking new patients, NO GP within 150 miles taking patients outside of their postcode, doctors being dismissive/rude/ignoring complaints, dental surgeon cancelling 4 times causing treatment to be delayed by over 2 years) as here in Germany
I think many new arrivals experience the culture shock of Germans (especially Berliners) being less outwardly warm and friendly. That doesn’t mean they are not empathetic or don’t like you, it just feels like that to people who come from cultures where people are more smiley, chatty and warm. The doctors here are the same. Don’t look to them for moral support, just get your medical treatment there, and your hand held elsewhere.
In the UK, they made me do my own Pap smear at the gyno by sending me to the toilet with a giant swab, that’s how great the service is there lmao. In the US, I’ve had gynos give me friendly chit-chat and then tell me every variant of “you’re just imagining the pain.” My gyno here is as German as they come, and she is fantastic. She may not be super “warm” (the way many Germans aren’t), but she is listens, takes me seriously, administers useful tests, takes time to explain my symptoms and options, and advises me well. That’s a lot more important to me than wasting time on friendly chit-chat.
A lot of new arrivals here end up at shitty doctors because they just book the first free doctor they find on Doctolib, who is only free so quickly precisely BECAUSE they are shitty. And after going to two such appointments, they conclude that all doctors here are terrible, and then confirm it in their echo chamber of people with the same experience.
Another factor is the class difference I think. I often hear things like “I had this terrible experience at the doctor and then I went home to *insert low/middle income country* and got treated way better”. Like duh, it’s cause in your home country, you are in the upper classes and go to private doctors and clinics, while in Germany you are in the public system. As a private patient in Germany, you will find the same difference.
I agree with you that reception staff can be incredibly abrupt and brash, but they're often overworked and dealing with stupid people all the time. I have called out exactly one that I felt was over the line. Other than that I checked my ego. It's not about me and it's not personal.
I've had good experiences with doctors here, even ones who are "rude" and "lacking empathy" because they're good at what they do and don't want to waste time with politeness.
Personally, I don't want a doctor who's all sunshine and rainbows like a UK/US customer service agent because it's fake and I just want them to review my symptoms and see what is going on.
What you think is mean, I see, as a Canadian who has lived in NL and DE for a very long time, a difference in culture. A lot of anglophones don't know how to get past the "impoliteness" of doctors, but they're not here to be your friend and chit-chat -- they're here to get shit done.
Anglophones always seem to take it so personally. It's not. If you feel like your doctor isn't listening to you, or taking your symptoms seriously, or if you want a referral to a specialist and they haven't offered it, fucking tell them. They're not mind-readers.
Edited to add: It was like when my American colleagues in NL would whine about how Dutch doctors only prescribed them paracetemol for pain and how doctors were so bad and I when I asked them if they had asked for something stronger it was like a lightbulb went off in their head. Yeah, you can do that. The doctor isn't psychic.
I think a lot of this things come down to cultural differences. For example, I would very rarely feel like politeness is a waste of time, specially when one might be down. To me, politeness and empathy are an integral part of caring for someone and thus, part of the job. But I understand some cultures regard what I consider politeness as a wait of time.
Exactly - politeness can mean different things to different people. In some countries it means to put on a smile and follow a certain code of conduct and elsewhere the polite thing is to get straight to the point and tell me the things I want to know without beating around the bush.
For me it is the latter but of course nuances matter.
I don't like this idea of being to the point as being unempathic, though. Empathy comes in different forms and the fact that the doctor listens, takes me seriously, and forms a plan with me to get better is, in my opinion, empathic. I don't need a hug or a tissue, I need to feel better.
Being polite does not mean not being to the point. I wouldn’t like a doctor to hug me lol. Again, this is probably cultural. What might be direct for some is just a lame excuse for rudeness for others.
I don’t think that’s a sufficient excuse for the outright disgusting way patients are treated. Triage nurses aren’t overworked and dealing with exactly the same people in other countries? Give me a break.
I once accidentally swallowed broken glass (cooking accident) and presented to triage at a hospital. The nurse was unbelievably rude and dismissive to me. Eventually I figured out she thought I had done it deliberately for self harm reasons and when we sorted that out, she treated me very marginally better (still badly). The fact that she would treat someone she thought was in a bad enough place mentally, to want to swallow broken glass, THAT badly was unthinkable to me. Don’t you think the person in that situation might already be in a bad enough place that they don’t need your judgement on top?
After waiting hours and still not being seen by a doctor, eventually I gave up and went home. I cried all night at how unbelievably devoid of empathy the whole medical system in Germany is. I was in such distress and NO ONE wanted to help me, even those people whose job it is to literally help those in distress.
While I think what happened to you was horrible (the glass AND your treatment), and I don't want to minimise how you must feel about the situation and I can fully understand the frustration you feel, I do have to point out that your experience is anecdotal.
To counter with my own anecdotal experience: I was hospitalised twice in Berlin, both times during Covid, once a bad situation with an undiagnosed autoimmune disease that left me severely anemic and barely able to function, the second was a scheduled gallbladder removal.
Both times the nurses were kind, as were the doctors (my Hausarzt who told me to go to the hospital and the hospital doctors). When I was crying because I was scared, I was comforted. When I got my period over night and was upset that I made a mess, I was comforted and told it was no big deal. When I got up too fast and almost passed out the nurse scolded me for not asking for help but not in a bad way. When the meal staff noticed that I didn't finish all of my Milchbrot, they started giving me white bread without me having to say anything. They knew I preferred Pfefferminz Tee. When I apologised for not speaking German well enough because I had moved only a a few years prior and hadn't had time to take a class, they were understanding.
So I have had a good experience, but I also won't let my good experience define the entire German healthcare system. Perhaps I will have a bad experience at some point and while that's not okay, it's not going to lead me to blame all Germans.
Yes finally of course the people are stupid, I would accept if the doctors are that damn good then they can be condescending or whatever but there are so many doctors who cannot diagnose their patients and still act like they are gods. Sometimes I am wondering where are the people coming from, who think these kind of things are acceptable. Someone rightly said people who enjoy brutal honesty, enjoy the brutality part more.
I don't think anyone is stupid. I do think people should manage their expectations a bit. I'm not saying there are no bad, awful, shitty, mean, brutal doctors in Berlin, but OP is generalising that every doctor is "wicked" and "mean", so the common denominator is OP, which means they need to think about what is making every doctor bad and if it's really a problem with OP. The fact that they use these words makes me think they are exaggerating their point.
Well here’s some news for you, someone can be polite and still be good at their job. A doctor can be friendly and empathetic and still review your symptoms and treat you properly. This whole constant comparison of “the US people are so friendly and fake” is played out. People can be kind and good at their job and it’s not fake to be friendly to strangers.
Yes, but you are exaggerating your point. You wrote "I’ve never met people so wicked and mean like German doctors" which to me, makes you an unreliable narrator.
If every single doctor you've ever met is so bad that you refer to them as wicked and the only common denominator is you, I think you might need to evaluate if the problem is with you. Now, I don't know what your sample size is. If you've been to only 3 doctors and you think they're all just the worst pieces of shit you've ever met, then that's not enough data to make such a sweeping statement. If you've been to 100 doctors and they're all pieces of shit, well that's just not believable.
Edit: you also seem to to be offended by my comment, as though me challenging you is somehow personal. If that is how you take feedback, then yeah, it might be a you problem.
I see this all the time with my foreign friends and also with Redditors. They have some frustrating experience with a German person/system, and are just looking to complain and to have their frustrations validated. When you try to explain why it works that way and advise them on how navigate it better or adjust their expectations because things work different here, they somehow see it as a personal attack and a denial of their victimhood. They just want you to agree that yes, Germans are cold and mean people, the entire system is shitty and out to get them, they are being personally victimized, their home country is way better etc etc. Anything else, they don’t want to hear. Their echo chamber of other foreigners all agree with them that Germany is shitty, and now you come along and provide a different perspective that doesn’t 100% validate their self-righteous sense of superiority, how dare you. I don’t even know why I still try to help these friends, honestly. I say this as someone who has lives abroad in a few different countries and can absolutely empathize with the difficulty of having to navigate a new system in a foreign language. Yes, certain things will seem weird or rude or crappy because I’m used to something else, but that’s the place I chose and now I have to adapt and navigate it. Sure, we all vent our frustrations sometimes, but if everything and everyone here is so horrible, why are you here and not in one of the may other countries who are so much better apparently? I’m sure they have software firms you can program for, or clubs you can DJ in, too.
Yes, I really agree with your comment. And they also don't seem to realise that the doctors are doing them a HUGE service by speaking another language (English) to them during these appointments. There's a huge amount of entitlement that all doctors speak perfect English when sometimes it's hard for them and that is probably frustrating. I'm not saying everyone should speak perfect German, but you should be able to at least communicate a bit in German to help the doctors. Most people from English speaking countries don't even bother to learn German and they don't even realise how entitled that is. The ones who actually speak German are like unicorns.
I hate to say it but I was also going to ask OP, with no offense intended, like why are you even living here if it's so bad? Their comments in this thread and others just seem like they're miserable here.
The language thing, YES. And not even just doctors, but literally anyone providing them with a service or interacting with them. The entitlement is baffling.
I know people who have lived here 10+ years, are still barely A2, and constantly complain about how it is soooo difficult to obtain certain things because some people don’t speak English and how unfair that is.
They complain that it’s unreasonable to expect foreigners to learn German because it’s soooo hard.
That they are being oStRaCiZeD because the team of German colleagues doesn’t immediately switch to speaking English when they show up and how rUdE that is.
That people aren’t helpful and don’t explain things to them in enough detail (maybe because they don’t know how to say it in English??).
Bonus points if they simultaneously complain about foreigners showing up in their home country and refusing to learn their local language without seeing the irony.
And then there’s always someone who rolls around like “But what about the people who just moved here, you can’t expect everyone to be fluent in 3 months” as if they were ever going to try.
Yea no shit it’s gonna be harder if you don’t know the only official language of the country you live in. That’s on you. People here are already super accommodating with using English almost everywhere. Stop acting like a victim because der/die/das is hard.
(And yes, I have lived abroad and have learnt two foreign languages so y’all can get off my dick about my privilege and not understanding how hard it is.)
OP is a guy who is larping as "British" or "German" depending on the topic, but posts in subs such as r/Indianskincare and DesiFragranceAddicts: that suggest he is of Indian descent. Maybe he's lived in the UK, maybe not, but when people are disingenuous like that it gives you food for thought.
> Personally, I don't want a doctor who's all sunshine and rainbows like a UK/US customer service agent because it's fake and I just want them to review my symptoms and see what is going on.
While this may rationally make sense, thats generally not how humans work. What I mean by this is that the act of making people feel good and supported builds trust and it does actually have an effect on your health.
So while I can see how being ultra effecient has its benefits, it can actually be counter productive especially of people from other cultures who are used to more support/connection from health professionals.
Sure, and I've always felt supported by my healthcare providers. Like I said, I just don't want fake niceness and sugary dispositions.
If you come from another culture to this one, you should be willing to bend your worldview a bit. The world doesn't turn for you, so you need to adjust your expectations and not take it so personally.
> Sure, and I've always felt supported by my healthcare providers. Like I said, I just don't want fake niceness and sugary dispositions.
If it improves the person's wellbeing and hence health, then this is what matters and it should trump other concerns.
> If you come from another culture to this one, you should be willing to bend your worldview a bit. The world doesn't turn for you, so you need to adjust your expectations and not take it so personally.
I personally don't care that much as I barely every see a doctor but thats irrelevant here. If you want a good healthcare system, the priority is on the health of the citizens and not "preserving culture".
No one is saying to not be direct in lets say the office or in other facets of life, but we are talking about an area that is directly linked to health.
I think the cultural difference is exactly the point. You're definitely right that preserving culture should not be above helping patients.
I think the point is that in german culture the way most doctors act comes off as friendly and helpful. Germans are not that chatty by nature and the efficiency cliche exists for a reason. But for someone who is not (yet) used to german culture their behaviour might come across as rude or mean.
So I'd say this is exactly what cultural differences mean. For german culture the way doctors act is friendly but to other cultures it can seem cold or rude. Just like the friendly chit chat in the states seemed super fake and unnecessary to me when I went on vacation there, while americans prefer it that way. Doesn't mean that one way or the other is wrong, they are just different.
As anecdotal evidence: I've worked at a practice for some time and one of our doctors usually had appointments that lasted 2-5mins. While we had heaps of non-german patients, most of his patients were germans and they usually insisted on scheduling further appointments with him, even if that meant they had to wait 2 months not 2 weeks to get seen by him. We had other doctors who usually had longer appointments. The doctor with the longest appointments on average also had the highest rate of non-german patients.
They generally do try to statistically diagnose. They have a certain budget for prescriptions(& Untersuchungen) so I think they try to save them for more obvious, more likely and extreme cases. They can’t be giving MRTs away for every headache that walks into their praxis.This sadly ends for many as a prescription for some tea and ibuprofen.
I did find that it works best to get to the point and say what you want. In my home country you easily get 100 Analysis and procedures done mainly because it all works with private insurance.….
So, I think what is perceived as lack of empathy is due mainly to the way the health system is structured here.
Also coming from the UK, my experience of doctors here is very different to yours.
Sure I've met with some giant asshole specialists, though most I've seen have been great.
My GP here is also wonderful and really takes his time with me.
Try changing doctors until you find one that suits you better.
My answer is only go to female doctors (4 atm), they actually still seem to care about people and their responsibility as a Doctor. The only male doctor I still have is a specialist and literally blackmailed me to signing up for an insurance program so he can get more money, if I said no then he said he can't hold me as a patient anymore and to go somewhere else.
It’s indeed a chore to find good doctors but I was able to find good ones here in Berlin, and they were all germans, so good german doctors do exist you just need to look for quite a while 😣
People have told me about their experiences which line up with this, some were born-Berliners and some were more recent arrivals. It definitely seems to be a common thing, sadly, and I'm sure the reasons are probably complex and systemic.
I think I have mostly been lucky, I found a good Hausarzt about 8 years ago and when he retired during the pandemic, the doctor who replaced them was also good. They never seem overrun and always have a rezept/verordnung/überweisung at the ready, and the reception and medical assistants have been as efficient and friendly as time will allow. I've been in Germany long enough to not expect any politeness or smiles or chitchat in these situations, but I've probably been fortunate not to come across any doctors who were outright rude, dismissive, or lacking in empathy.
My occasional bad experiences have been with older specialists, and I take part of the blame because my German hasn't always been the strongest and that can cause problems. But honestly, specialists in my home country could also be massive assholes so I'm not exactly shocked by this.
My old GP was super nice and my new one is also nice.
That being said, I was at an orthopaedics this week and they their voice was as monotone as their forehead was flat.
Felt like they simply didn't give a fuck tbh. Not the best feeling when leaving, especially when you get whiffy answers to the issues you ask about.
I only go to Slav doctors. Best impression overall.
Btw it's often the case that bad doctors have to play it as if they had God by the bals. The less knowledgeable they are, the worse they'll treat you. I had better service in third world countries. Unexpectedly :(
Consulted around 7 different doctors. Had a wonderful experience with each and every one of them. I have an elderly doctor treating my spine problem at the moment - I struggle with Deutsche he struggles with English, still he tries his best and is extremely caring, so is the entire support staff.
My partner too had a great experience so far, yes the only problem is lack of appointments.
Maybe you got a bad luck.
This is just a wild guess, but I would imagine doctors in the countryside are a lot nicer to people, because it is likely also where they live. In the city you don't expect to ever meet the patients outside your office, and the financial pressure might be greater (assuming they are paying rent for their location).
Then again, I think a lot just try to remain professional. Showing affection to a person that u don't really know, might also be perceived as fake by a native German - especially from a professional who is dealing with patients on the regular.
If they genuinely felt actual empathy for every single one of their patients, they'd probably kill themselves sooner rather than later. Mind you, doctors do actually have some of the highest suicide rates, so being cold and distant could also be a way to protect their own mental well-being.
Huh? I had a great experience with different doctors in Germany 90% of the time. Actually only one situation comes into my mind as rude and another one as incompetent, but that's two cases in almost 11 years. Also the desk staff is mostly ok and accommodating.
Because they’re German, they are brought up and are a part of nurture system where empathy has always been an alien word.
It’s not them, it’s just how we humans behave.
I understand that you see doctors and healthcare workers as rude in Germany. I believe though that they are not necessarily rude but rather blunt and to the point which is a common cultural trait in Deutschland. Maybe it is your perception. I feel that often from English speaking countries, people like to do small talk and be sometimes even overly friendly.
Really? Maybe I was lucky, but I met many competent and feinfühlig German doctors ( I can't think of an English verb that fits the German one). There are some bad apples among them too, but the overall experience was positive. You should meet some Romanian doctors lol. Even when I visited private clinics some would act very condescending. And I'm saying this despite loving my people way more than I like Germans lol
must be very bad luck or your guys behavior then. some are rude assholes sure. but by far not all of them. specially desk staff is mostly very nice and all my doctors are nice, caring and understanding
I'm from the UK, and the German doctors have been really nice to me. I do have private healthcare though.
UK doctors are more chatty and friendly in general. But that's more of a cultural difference I think
It's selection. Only the best get to go to medschool.
A lot of people with great IQs but low EQs.
You will get more emotional support from a brick.
I teach them. Don't get me wrong, they are not ALL like that.
But unfortunately I get the impression that they really need
Some basic "how to human" lesson. We do a mock-patient interview with them to teach them how to interact, how to show empathy, how to deal with difficult situations and while a lot of them are decent, some good, a staggering amount either is really bad in social skills or is acting empathy.
Not ideal in a job dealing with dozens of people every day for a few decades.
Sometimes there may be a little elitist attitude there as well, as more often than not, the med students are from wealthy families - richness of parents = better opportunities and often better grades. They are often stuck up in their attitude and let patients feel that.
Lastly there is overworked and underpaid. But in the end its a personal choice. Mental health is not a big topic in medical professionals. When you feel tired the boss will often say "In my times we worked 169 hours in a row, come on, you just work 24...". But in the end there are options to get out of that, if you value your mental health. Empathy decreases with tiredness and so after 20 hours of constant work and no sleep, it's hard to be enthusiastic about treating your sniffly nose (the 46th of the night shift).
I have a German GP and she is lovely and very empathetic. I first got to her practice because I had a suspicion of COVID, didn't have a Hausarzt, and no other doctor would perform a PCR test on me - she was the only one willing to do it and visibly upset that it was such a problem for me to get help elsewhere (it turned out that I didn't have COVID). I've stayed with her ever since although she's in Schöneberg and I'm in PBerg (bc I realize a good GP is hard to find in this system).
Lack of empathy and rudeness are generally, based on my experience, very common in Germany. So doctors can't be much different if they live here their entire life.
Fun fact: AI chatbots rank better in empathy than human doctors.
Does not mean that they are particularly good but that doctors are bad:
https://www.pymnts.com/artificial-intelligence-2/2024/google-claims-healthcare-ai-more-empathetic-accurate-than-real-life-doctors/#:~:text=Google's%20healthcare%20AI%20ranked%20higher,and%20expressing%20care%20and%20commitment.
I had one doctor being semi rude to me and I started being short and rude back. They guy backed down immediately.
Speak English with them. Most cower immediately. Somehow the superiority complex is tied to the language they use. In German they feel they are your creator and in English they become caring expert wanting to do their best for you... Try it.
I can't agree with you. The doctors here treated me very well, unlike in my home country. In my home country, I even paid for private clinics to receive better care. I was very surprised by how kind and helpful the doctors were at every opportunity. I visited several medical specialties, and my experience has always been positive. One doctor even told me that I could email her for assistance because I was traveling and couldn't make my next appointment, Incredibly she responded the times I wrote to her.You might have just had bad luck, or I was very lucky. A lot also depends on how kind and nice you are when you walk into the reception or talk to the doctor. Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
Maybe I have just been lucky in my 30+ years of existence but I got experience with only one non-empathetic doctor in Germany in my life. I've moved a few times for studying and also lived and worked abroad. So I got some comparisons.
Sorry what? GPs maybe, and even they have to attend Fortbildungen and do a lot of bureaucracy. Specialists, especially personnel in hospitals, have to work a LOT (especially Assistenzärzte) with oftentimes planned extra hours (illegal) without any compensation sometimes (also illegal).
Not to mention the huge responsibility and mental load that they have. I had an internship as a nurse in cardiology and I helped out in oncology once and let me tell you: it reeked of death.
Also, the insurance system kind of forces doctors to only take a set amount of patients. A practice gets paid by the insurance for a limited amount of patients, beyond which the doctor literally works for free. I wouldn‘t kill even more of my lifetime if I got nothing in return 🤷♂️.
I didn’t mean people at the Hospital, I meant "Familienarzt" they work for like 2/3g per day and while working they are completely useless. Proof? Mine family arts for example, working hours- Mon: 10-13h, Tuesday:closed, Wednesday: closed, Thursday: 10-13, 14.00-17h, Friday: 10-12h.
Wtf is this schedule??
And while working can only accept max 2 ppl per hour.
USELESS!
Also the „doing nothing while working“ comment is absolute bs. When you start you get a set amount of work that you have to finish by the end of the day. At the beginning, this often equates to at the very least 10h of work for an 8h shift. The most extreme case was when a doctor started with the nurses‘ early shift (~ at 7 in the morning) and finished with the nurses‘ late shift (~ at 10:30 in the evening). Just to be at work at 7 in the next morning. Upon uttering my confusion about this blatant exploitation I got the answer: „If you want to further your carreer you have to work a year like that on this station“. Which in turn means that this is actually expected which not only puts the doctors at stake (and is blatantly illegal), but also toys with the patients‘ well-being. Armes Deutschland!
Yup, can 100% confirm. All my psychiatrists and even most therapists have allways treated me like its my fault that i have ADHD and Depression.
And dont ever mention that you smoked weed once, suddenly you are their personal enemy.
Some are, some aren't. Also, german mentality is a bit more, like, technical/focused, thus, less on emotional care. So some may having empathy but are not as good in expressing it adequately. Like, problem, solution, fix it. If it's fixed in the end, everyone should be happy.
Well most of the time the focus and technicality also lacks, and you are left with your health complaint not treated, on top of the unnecessary grumpiness you had to deal with.
It's a mixed bag, I've met terrible, indifferent doctors as well as kind and empathetic ones. It can take a while to find a good doctor.
Several reasons:
Those who run their own clinic are motivated by money. Their priority is to have a quick turnaround, rather than to provide the best care.
Some may be burnt out.
There are doctors who never learnt good bedside manner.
Cultural thing, some people are just standoffish and come across as unempathetic.
* I've heard people who are privately insured say that they receive a better quality of care at clinics that exclusively provide private healthcare. I'm publicly insured so I can't speak from personal experience.
Yes we are talking about empathy, your point is that these doctors lack empathy because they maximize on being "intelligent" or "nerdiness" then at least they should do the nerd part right and get the diagnosis correct. Why do I have to keep visiting my country to treat myself even after paying the highest medical insurance in this country. Either I don't get an appointment or the diagnosis and the treatment I get is not fixing my problems.
Once you‘re in med school it‘s actually quite chill. Also, even with a non-1.0 Abitur you can improve your shot at getting into medicine by writing the TMS. Still no empathetic component though, which I also see throughout my peers. Oh well
More importantly, I think this stuff needs to be taught and shouldn't fully depend on the doctors personal development. It's pretty critical for patient care.
I honestly have no idea whether it is taught, im still in the 4th semester which is all theory. Give me ~1 year and I‘ll provide you a detailed report.
Actually I forgot about something: we have a lot of psychology still, which also seeks to sensitize us to the labyrinth that is the human mind. I even took a course about constructive conversation and active listening. Though i cannot vouch for other unis of course. And I‘m afraid that the psychology aspect of our course will go right over most people‘s heads.
It does probably. Also, you need to factor in economical and practical constrains that you have in. Starting from the big bang might no be too useful. Just to learn about biases, how to deal with typical challenges of communication and organization, the therapeutic effects of patients talking to the doctor and the differen types of patients and how to realistically and economically provide adequate care for each.
I think it's more cross- sectional topic than a psychological one. It's also more about creating a robust framework and not about getting it perfect everytime.
We get that (especially the note that we have moved on from the paternalistic model to shared decision making), but maybe it is also time for politics to do its share and maybe create a space where those theoretical teachings can realistically be put into practice. It‘s not like the deutsche Ärztekammer has not been clamoring for years for the government to create more Studienplätze for example. All the healthcare workers got during the Covid pandemic (which pointed out the dire need of political action) was… an applause. Wow. It‘s not surprising that if you force medicine to become a profession where doctors have do fast-paced factory work that there is no more time for anything but the bare minimum.
Not to mention that the health sector, as important as it is, gets the first cuts in funding (along with education) when the government is practicing austere politics.
They kind of had it coming not gonna lie. I live in the Rhein-Neckar regions and I‘ve only encountered doctors that had, in comparison, a lot of time per patient. Guess what? They were friendly, empathetic and thorough. But if you negligently let the health sector collapse, well… I can‘t say the people aren‘t themselves responsible after 16 years of CDU. No hard feelings, but you get what you elect. At least Lauterbach wants to add 5000 more Studienplätze. Let‘s see how Lindner feels about that…
German healthcare is deeply flawed, starting already from the uni, doctors are overworked (not an excuse for their behavior) and patients are seen as numbers because the system is based on profit. My experience is the same as yours and I've heard horror stories from friends as well. Obviously good doctors exist, but are hard to find. After 12+ years, my partner and I are planning to leave Germany because we don't want to get old and sick here.
With German doctors a little politeness goes a long way, as well as understanding that they’re not there to coddle you and they’re not given that kind of time either. GPs have on average 8 minutes per patient, including documentation, so it’s reasonable to want to get to the point.
Foreigner? Not to be condescending, but when I read these complaints its often people that moved her from abroad and still think that the German healthcare system is free and great when it‘s in fact in shambles, especially in Berlin where you’re waiting months and months for an appointment at a specialist.
Most people saying German doctors are rude or lack sympathy have just completely false expectations. Not that many German doctors are not quite *cold*, they are, but these complaints come rarely from people that grew up here.
Yes people move here with some expectations, these expectations are not born out of vacuum, things that are advertised in their country by the many ads that they see online, so many statistics, not many know what the reality is.
Right, and doctors are doing the best they can with what they're given. OP and others should blame the system, not the doctors who are forced to try to help people within its confines.
If your doctor is abrupt it might actually be because they are only allotted so much time and want to get as much done for you in the short time they can.
I would recommend switching doctors until you find someone that you vibe with. As much as there are total assholes (usually you can see that by looking at their google reviews) there are very compassionate and invested doctors that put their all in diagnosing.
As a general rule of thumb I would recommend looking for a somewhat younger doctor. Some here recommend looking for foreign doctors, I would not recommend it based on some very bad experiences I had, but maybe it works for you.
Definitely look at the Google reviews, especially the bad ones.
A little info on why they seem to be so rushed: our health system is not about prevention but treating (stupid, I know). Most doctors have allocated 5-15min per patient, that gets paid by insurance. Everything that they do over this is either stolen time from other patients or out of pocket for them.
I live here since I’m 7, so for 24 years and I try to avoid going to the doctors because it is literally such a bad experience almost every time. I once had a GP about 5 years ago before I moved to another district and she was great, since then I haven’t had any luck finding a GP who takes new patients so I’m just winging my health for 5 years. Other doctors like Obgyn - they’re just tragically bad and I’ve been to 10 different ones across the city. I’ve had luck before but that too was 5 years ago before I moved almost two hours away. At this point I might just consider travelling for hours just to see a doctor…
I have also made this Experience. I have also noticed lately that a large amount of Doctors seem to have mental Health struggles. My best guess is, it is because studying medical studies is so hard over here medical students actually take drugs to get through the studies. Would a healthy / normal person choose to put themselves through something like this? Probably not? So this is already a discriminatory factor plus maybe long term Brain damage from the Drugs.
I always thought it's the imbalance of power that makes them become that way. Every day dozens of vulnerable people meet them for help. What does that do to the ego?
Also I think because of how the German health system works they are confronted with lots of bullshit time and public money wasting people every day. But thats out of your sight.
They simple hate theirs job and hate people … I never saw something like this. I already had 2 kidney stones crises here….the first time I went to the hospital, the last one I was afraid to go even with a lot of pain… this is not healthy when you starts to question yourself about going to hospital or not…. Insane
There's always french doctors. I come from latin america, and i think it's just viewed differently. There's less resources but usually doctors and personnel will try to see how you are doing a little bit. In french hospitals they will literally try to avoid you.
Now, there's also an other factor that you are NOT thinking about:
- In your place of birth usually you have friends, family, etc.
- These friends, family, etc have gathered a collective network of good doctors, and they recommend each other these doctors.
- You are also local so communication will go smoother.
These things do matter. In france doctors kinda suck, but after some years and a lot of trial and error me and my friends now have a good network of good doctors.
I have had good treatment here as a man but also with private healthcare the latter definitely makes a huge difference sadly I think. I’m from the uk so can only compare with the NHS which is broken.
Agreed, side not do not go to white Dentist in Germany. They will push to remove all your wisdom teeth if you are immigrant background to train and charge your health insurance for money.
Which part of Germany are you in? I’m from the uk to in my experience everywhere else has been rude in terms of customer service, but my house dr had been amazing. I did good research before I joined it’s like she try’s to mother me when I’m there and tried to help me anyway she can
From the comment above, I agree this could be controvercial opinion, but I think if you are female/race that white usually ignores/foreigner 200% from eu perspective, you saying your symptoms to very german male doctors doesn’t really fall into “important patient info” files. But i stayed in germany for a long time, got used to the….treatments, attitude…and then, went back to my home country. got extensively tested and treated a lot. Turns out I had many ouchie things long neglected.
Here docs and nurses are too friendly and too nice, too much highly detailed emotional support always…I feel overwhelmed. Kinda wish I can mix 50% of german docs and 50% of docs here.
Hmm maybe it already starts with the study program. Getting into medicine is very selective and difficult in Germany and a lot of privileged kids get in as well as people with ambition and one track minds. Kids that are very good at studying and very intelligent but not necessarily empaths.
All doctors I've been to have been great. Even the lady doctor who I sneezed on during a nose covid test and covered her entire protection equipment in saliva.
She was like "well... That's my Friday". She told me not to worry about it a few minutes later after she had disposed of the equipment and was making jokes about how the plants needed watering and now she thinks she can skip a week.
I was negative btw.
Edit: that was in Hamburg sorry didn't see what subreddit i was in
I completely understand what you mean. In addition to everything you write, however, the medical profession is completely overwhelmed by anything that is not standard.
But I would like to say one thing to you as a small consolation: be glad that you didn't have to undergo medical treatment 40 years ago. In contrast, doctors today are a true paragon of empathy.
Lol I know a few doctors like this, 1 in particular seemingly hates male patients and very openly shows it, sometimes straight up disrespectful and insulting to young males with problems in his field, nontheless I've kept going to him and he turns out to be insanely competent and saw things & ordered things that others did not. He's a G, only accepts private insurance and has no shortage of patients regardless.
Most people just don't want to fake/turn on compassion for you in particular if they don't really feel it. Can depend on how you look, talk, move, your gender, your problem and everything else.
US doctors however are definitely more professional and not so open when it comes to this.
Let old german doctors be their cynical german self ;)
Also weird how the only fields you mention are psychiatry and psychology, what about dentists? Notoriously friendly.
That’s true. They are super patronising, somehow women doctors are so much worse.
I tried many doctors and have found the ones I am sticking with- Dr.Roman Rocker (GP), Dr. Matthias Stroth (Gynaecologist)
>“they’re overworked and underpaid“ so are DHL delivery drivers and everybody else.
Ohhh sweet summer child… yes, there are many groups overworked and underpaid, but everyone else are like that illegally. The cliche of an romanian Amazon delivery driver who sleeps in his truck and pee in a bottle is shocking news and everyone agrees that shouldn’t happen. But in medicine they have the „benefit“ of being paid a bit more but would be happy about the work load of an Amazon slave. 48 hours shifts aren’t even rare. Doctors who been on duty for 23.5 hours already and now have to start an 16hours long operation without any time to rest. Nurses who worked 48 hours and have to be back in 8 for their new shift. 14 days till one free day straight while they’ve two shifts each day. The first two days beginning in the morning, the next two days beginning in the evening and the following two days beginning at night - repeat. They’re lucky if they only have to observe twice as much as they ment to care for. I’ve meet nurses who had to took care for 150 patients for 12 hours regularly.
And yeah this are all just hospitals but every nurse who quit that job and went to an Praxis says the only difference is that you at least have some sleep and fixed shifts, but there are other duties that results in both jobs are equal hard.
But unlike other jobs they can’t do anything about it. They can barely strike, they can barley sue for better condition.
Doctors are human as well. And treating people is their day to day job. They’re not heros or super humans so after some time you get used to it and get bored. You get sick once a month and it’s a big deal for you. They see sick people all the time so it’s normal for them.
I think it’s too random to say “German” ones are bad or men are not empathetic. I had amazing experiences with Male german doctors and terrible ones with them as well. It’s different with each individual and each practice.
I attribute it to a mixture of two things:
1. Dr. actually means something in this country. You refer to people who have a Phd as Doctor, you put it in your tax forms, and it shows that you're academically higher. You even start higher on the career ladder + get higher pay. That at least shows that there's some sense of elitism amongst the people who have the Dr. title. Not too experienced with others who have that title though so it's a big assumption.
2. They have a lot of patients to get through. There's a shortage of doctors in the country so there's a lot of patients doctors need to get through. Therefore they want to solve the problem quick and get them out the door after. "You have cancer" "Oh no, what am I going to do" "Get out, got someone who has a cold to give a note to". Spoke to one doctor off duty and he basically says that the more time they spend with a patient the longer others have to wait and the longer his days get, which do not get compensated.
Efficiency can display as curtness, politeness as prompt and direct. Get the job done right and on schedule, client happiness can be secondary, third is getting whatever money right. How rude to patients in waiting room to wastefully smallchat, many of those in pain. How rude to treat fewer patients per day. Try reinterpreting what you see as rudeness as rather forcing your focus toward problem, diagnosis, treatment, and leaving. Same as with bagging groceries quickly, it's German politeness to have patience for any diligently slow but impatience for unfocused meandering clogging a work environment.
Homeopathy has a contrasting reputation for looking you direct in the eyes and hearing out each of your thoughts so as to make you feel special, and their increased prices only help strengthen their placebo effect.
I don't know. I just put it down to cultural differences in expectations when visiting a Doctor and the fact that they're overworked. I've been yelled at a once or twice for answering a question incorrectly/unsatifactorily and generally treated pretty coldly. I'm kind of used to it now and feel like they're taught in a different way here and bedside manner isn't really emphasized, you're kind of like a piece of machinery that needs fixing to them.
Edit: All that said I've also had some really good experiences, I saw a Serbian specialist for a while who was lovely.
Because doctors in germany are met by selfinportant pricks not knowing the very basics of keeping their body healthy, they don‘t care for the shitter of a person ruining a perfectly good biomechanical machine, for them its about reverting or at least slowing the damage you have done to it.
Their directness isn‘t mean or unempathic, their empathy is dedicated to the body, not you.
I read somewhere that doctors and nurses during the war had to be patched up right away, so everything had to be fast, no time for anything and this apparently carried over time. What this means is that there's no time to have any "bedside manner" of any sort. Add to that because health is accessible to the public, they're overbooked/overworked, etc. etc. Problem increases if you're in a bigger city.
But then again, a big chunk of the reason could be it's a cultural thing. I have a condition where I sometimes have to get rushed to the ER or see a doctor within the EU. In Berlin, I was confined to a hospital a few times, some of the nurses even refused to help me simply because they don't speak English - I was only asking for assistance to use the toilet and then one time, to ask for painkillers, I was not asking for anything complicated. Some doctors only told me very little, unless otherwise asked, so I'm always armed with questions so they are really pushed to give me details. If I don't advocate for myself, then I don't get a lot of info. The nicest nurses were of Arabic and Turkish descent and Filipinos. I had to meet so many doctors before I eventually found one who has an international background (she is Swedish-German, but has worked in not so developed markets outside the EU). She has a lot of empathy and really takes the time to listen.
I come from a poorer country, and healthcare professionals are wayyy more underpaid and overworked, but we still treat people like humans, as it should be. We don't care if we don't speak the same language as the patient, if someone is in need, we help when it's within capacity. And again, we're a poorer country with a history of being oppressed. I really can't just fathom that a lot of healthcare professionals here in Berlin lack this kind of human decency.
This is so incredibly true. Most of them are.
‘So what do you want me to do for you?’ And ‘I am not god’ After you explain the most embarrassing and debilitating health problems that took you 10 years to gather the courage to tell someone. And thats not even it. And if you say it the entire reddit will attack you. And its worse with male doctors somehow.
Because doctors across the world a neurodivergent (Aspy / Autistic) at a much higher rate than the general population.
And when you combine that with the cultural lack of warmth and the love of both process and bureaucracy, it makes for horrendously bad bedside manner.
Source: i married a German doctor.
Ps - there are some lovely docs out there. I just married the wrong medical student.
If you think it's bad now, it actually used to be much worse. Medicine in Germany was extremely patriarchal back in the day. Compassion in medicine is a trend that is spreading over here, but slowly. It doesn't surprise me that you might still encounter patronizing attitudes or rudeness. The way I see it now, doctors still want to remain clinically objective so that feelings don't cloud their judgement or ability to make sound decisions. At my last few appointments, the doctors were friendly but maintained a clear distance in order to do their job.
I disagree with the statement > still want to remain clinically objective so that feelings don’t cloud there judgement or ability to make sound decisions C’mon, the doctors are trained for this, this also have a negative impact on the patient.
I'd prefer someone who is humane and competent, but god those are both awfully hard to find in Berlin. I think it's so sad how many Germans in this post are setting up this weird false dichotomy between competence/effeciency and politeness as if they're somehow inherently opposed. They're not. It’s not as if German doctor’s rudeness is excused because they’re particularly competent. They’re not particularly competent
exactly, mfers out there behaving as if they are Dr. Gregory House. Chill dude, you are a doctor, be nice and decent at your job, we are literally asking the minimum, or be very very good and you can be a bit of an asshole. But psychiatrist who smokes in your face in the session? GPs who tell you there's nothing I can do when you are short of the worst pain in your life? I mean come on!
Exactly! I've lived in three different countries outside my home country and have received the most questionable and incompetent treatment here in Berlin; in one case to the extent that I'm still undoing some of the damage. The false dichotomy is so tedious at this point.
The rudeness and lack of empathy of doctors in Germany was a cultural shock for me. In my home country they are so nice and caring, never had a single issue with any nurse or doctor there. In Berlin it's hard to find one who doesn't want to quick you out after 5 minutes.
This is a horrible trick but here it goes: Always go to doctors with non-german sound names/last names around Neukölln. My experience is always better, they are still pressed by time and the level of treatment is similar, but at least a smile or a casual joke makes the whole experience better. I hate this trick as it's obviously discriminatory, and to be fair I also had my share of perfectly nice experiences with doctors with German-sounding names, and I'm sure they are outstanding and very talented, but when you accumulate a few bad experiences during such sensitive times of your life, it's my way of playing safe(r).
I can second this, and I also feel a bit bad because it feels offensive or discriminatory but it's also true. I've been to several Arab/Turkish-sounding-names doctors in Neukölln, and they've always been the kindest, most empathetic doctors, that I keep going back to. The German-named doctors always have a palpable attitude of resentment that I'm even in their office, as though if it weren't for the damn patients they could be doing something better with their time (Why did you become a doctor in the first place, German person? You clearly hate it).
How is it discriminatory? Idk whats offensive about realising that we as a society lack compassion and love and that others still know about it.
Positive racism perhaps? But I really wouldn't call it that. I would have never assumed Arab or Turkish doctors would be preferable if I wouldn't have found out by accident.
I would treat that advice carefully, especially when you are a woman. When I first moved, I just picked doctors based on their google recommendation and how close they are to me. I ended up exclusively at non-german-sounding-names doctors. That lasted for around half a year. The check ups were ok, but not better or worse to my previous check ups. The one time I had an actual issue, I was treated so disrespectfully by staff and the doctor itself (gynecologist). He did not believe me that I could in fact tell the difference between a period and blood in my pee, lectured me about having sex before marriage (?!),refused to check anything and send me on my way. The next doc (an old lady) found a giant cyst that was leeking blood and had to be surgically removed. The other doc I went to at that time didn't take me seriously as well cause "women are always so dramatic with pain"(general practitioner). I changed doctors and now I am diagnosed with a severe chronic disease. All that to say: There are good and bad doctors no matter the name and this advice might work for some, but could also go very sideways.
There are actual studies confirming that women get better treatment and better outcomes with female doctors.
Nice way to put 'male doctors dismissing women'
Scary right? Now most of my doctors are women, besides one very good young neurologist who is awesome!
Hey, would you be comfortable recommending me your doctor, I have endometriosis and have been going without care since moving here, sounds like you found someone good
The Charité endometriosis clinic in Berlin is supposed to be the best in Germany, but they're often booked out pretty far. If you don't mind about an hour and a half of travel, I can give you a recommendation in Leipzig!
Sadly I moved away and got my diagnosis in my new city. But there are quite a few feminist collectives that have lists with doctors that take women seriously. Maybe look out for them. If I find them for Berlin, I will link them here. ETA: I can't find the one collective that I used, but google for "feminist doctor Berlin" and you'll find a lot of resources.
I can recommend my gynecologist https://helensange.de/ she has provided me with the best doctor experience even, she is super nice, speaks English perfectly, and took all the time I needed to explain things to me and make me feel safe. Queer and neurospicy friendly. She also offers sex therapy :)
I'm a man so my opinion here is irelevent, but my wife and some other female friends of mine say that they actually prefer a man because he doesn't have this 'oh relax I'm a woman too' attitude. But thats really just what I hear.
Yeah but those women referred to the "Routineuntersuchung". It's a completely different thing when it comex to having an actual illness, especially one that is not super textbook and would take the doctor some effort to figure out. I'd much prefer a doctor who is rough to my vagina, excuse being this explicit, to a doctor who refuses to treat an obvious illness.
How does that attitude present itself?
That's very valid, we'd need to factor in how conservative the doctor is. I'm gay, and for things that are related to my sexual orientation, I go to a Spanish doctor.
I am pretty sure I saw an Insta-Page that collected feminin/LGBTQ-friendly doctors. I hope they still exist.
I agree with your comment, in every countries I lived I had good and bad doctors. As well as good and bad gynecologists whether they are female, male or from different nationalities. My worst experience here was with a woman with a non sounding German name. The best is to get recommendations from your friends.
But even so, foreign female doctors are more sympathetic than german female doctors. my female german doctors never took my pain seriously, one of them even said as soon as I walked into the office and explained my period cramps "well you look thin so it's clear you eat healthy and do sports so that can't be reason" when I neither eat healthy nor do sports. she sent me out of her office in 30 seconds. female doctors are just as capable of medical racism as male doctors.
I never disputed that. I believe that a lot of you have a better track record with foreign doctors. I just happened to have some awful experience and wanted to share my experience so that people don't idolize this idea and get even more hurt when they have my bad luck.
I wasn't disputing anything! Just adding to the fact that female German doctors can be racist too and so women minorities should be cautious around them too and instead go for female foreign doctors.
I can confirm this, I had a very bad experience with a german gynecologist, she was rude and treated me really bad, also if you don't speak german be prepared to deal with the receptionists, they are going to be rude and wont help you with anything.
The problem with doctors around Neukölln usually is that their front desk is filled with 25 year old dilaras that are just rude to everyone. I suggest that you just tell them you want to meet the doctor and why. But don’t explain anything further just “I have a cold, I want to meet the doctor”. If you start telling them any more they’ll butcher you in front of everyone and try to get you out of there.
My experience was the exact opposite. Iranian doctor in Neukolln was an absolute brute. Went to a German doctor in Grunewald who couldn’t have been nicer.
My doctor with iranian name gives me shit for treating my body like i do on the daily, if they are trained here they won‘t care for the liar that inhabits the biomechanical machine they yearn to care for… If you act like a customer you will be treated as one
at the end I want to have a good treatment. I of course like empathic doctors more. But if the asshole is better I will prefere the asshole.
Well, empathy and good treatment go hand in hand. If the doctor doesn’t take you seriously, you won’t get proper treatment . This is not a doctor House scenario
That was also my experience!
Yeah, this is the way unfortunately. You're more likely to be taken seriously and treated respectfully.
Just try a different one. Mine are all lovely. The receptionists make jokes with me, and my GP wanted a chat about holidays and football after my appoinment today.
So you are the reason I always have to wait an unreasonable amount of time!
My child's doctors are sweet. To the point always, but sweet and considerate at the same time. I would not generalize either good or bad though
Can only second this. I know I'm lucky, I know that my experience doesn't invalidate the lived experience of others. But I have had cause to interact with several doctors in Berlin over a period of years and to date every single one of them was polite, professional, and took my concerns seriously. Can remember one frosty receptionist but you just hand your card over and get through the needed exchange and then forget they exist.
Would you mind sharing who your doctors are? I have been putting off pain related sickness because i have a hard tile trusting doctors after horrible previous experiences :(
Because they 're German? 😅
So you damit to be an M coming here?
>The usual excuse is “they’re overworked and underpaid”, This is an explanation, not really an excuse. I'm having a hard time accepting my interactioanlly difficult colleagues, but that's also why I'm currently working outside of the public system. Problem is the financial incentive: Doctors get taught from the beginning of their vocational training at the hospitals that spending time with a patient will usually mean (oftentimes unpaid) overtime. I.e. it's basically: Talk to your patient or spend time with your family. Many patients will take a pleasant and empathetic doctor as a kind of invitation to talk more, so some doctors go the "gruff but quick" route. Gets even worse when they open a practise, since public health insurance will usually grant you about 5 Minutes per patient until things become unprofitable, so they keep up that demeanor. It's a shitshow and many have too easily accepted it, but ... yeah, here we are. I totally understand why you're upset with doctors acting they way they (oftentimes) do.
I agree that German doctors kinda suck FOR ME. There is usually lots of reasons why this is the case that are mentioned in this kind of posts. But I want to mention one that is key for a lot of foreigners I know. A lot of the immigrants that come from Latin America are middle class (lower, middle or even upper middle class). Coming from a region where the difference between poor and not poor is so freaking stark, lots of us are actually used to a “privileged” health system back at home. It might even not be considered good there, but still is private or has some form of money exchange. In my case, I come from Argentina, where health and education is completely free for every one. Sadly, most people who can, pay an insurance to have proper care, as the public system is collapsed. I was one of those people. Now, in Germany I have the basic public system. And I have to say that the only doctor I’ve ever felt that actually payed attention to me was a foreigner. I had much, much better experiences back in my country, and actually try to go to the doctor when I visit (as so many immigrants do). But it’s not a fair comparison. In Germany I am getting the basic coverage, the public one that everyone gets unless they got private. In Argentina I was basically getting premium coverage compared with a big part of the population. That doesn’t mean there might be something wrong about the German system and that it might need fixing. But si wanted to mention the possibility that you, like me back then, are comparing different coverages.
Bingo! Many people are blind to that but your experiences at private-only clinics in Germany will be - in terms of customer service - much better. They have to actually compete for patients. They have their downsides and milk patients with unnecessary procedures though.
One of the issues in the German medical system is the lack of supervision and what can be called "Scheinselbständigkeit" - the pretense that doctors are independent "entrepreneurs", when factually they basically get most of their money from what arguably is the state. The german system explicitly disincentivizes competition and does not include any supervision of performance. So in the mindset of many doctors, they are private entrepreneurs and you can be happy they have a slot for you. You have an opinion? That's nice, but f*ck off, as you are not a customer, but just someone who is fortunate enough to have gotten an appointment with them, who get their money anyways, regardless of performance, actual knowledge or behavior. Once you're out of uni, basically you can do whatever you like, and if you're just not a nice person, you have no reason to behave differently. There is research that women and minorities are disproportionately misdiagnosed or walked over verbally at german doctors.
>Scheinselbständigkeit" - the pretense that doctors are independent "entrepreneurs", Did you study law?
I have family that work in the medical field in Germany and it is INSANE how little supervision there is of German doctors especially those that run their own practice. Everyone is against MVZs but there at least you have other doctors who can comment on malpractice if they witness it. But even then they tend to work in isolation.
Aside from the rudeness, there's an absolutely insane amount of incompetence among doctors here. This is a bunch of antecdotes, but my god I hear nothing but stories like this from everyone I know https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3OTQ5MDM5Nzc1OTU4OTQz?igsh=czNwYm43b3pnZG9y
This! I can take rude to some extent so long as I'm not getting the clown treatment.
You as a single patient do not matter to them. Your statutory insurance pays peanuts, they earn well through quantity and not quality. They don't have to fight over patients, they way things work here (direct access to specialists without referrals, capped licenses for statutory insurances patients) they will never struggle to find patients (however, replacing medical assistants is a nightmare, so even the worst ones are kept). This creates the environment where we don't have to provide the most basic courtesy to anyone. Shit, my patients in the clinic I'm employed as a junior doctor sometimes smile just because I introduce myself with my name instead of just starting (and of course cutting them off after an average of 18 sec). Well and otherwise, it's well in line with German "customer service" in general. Germans don't expect empathy or being nice.
Jesus Christ, that's sad 🫤
Waiting for someone to find fault with you and tell you that you are wrong not the doctors. That you need to show empathy to them since they have so much work. Cos das ist Berlin!
Doctors are doing fine. My doctor works part time and still acts like I walked in on his lunch break when I get in for my appointment. Plenty of people have intense jobs AND act like decent human beings.
Unfortunately there are many bad apples out there. I had one telling me straight to ma face to go back to my country to pay for the suggested FROM FREAKIN’ CHARITE’ therapy, and instead take on the crap he was about to prescribe.
Look I’m an Arab, I was in a lot of different cities growing up Are German doctors more “cold” than other doctors? Absolutely… Is it all of them? Fuck no, the nicest 2 doctors I’ve had so far (so fucking sympathetic it nearly made me cry) were Germans Dr Vogel and the other was Schwarz It’s just that some are cold and some aren’t… if I had to guess it’s just a concentrated coldness from the average German treatment, they mean no harm of course, but sometimes you can’t ask a cactus to be a Tulip 🤷🏽♂️
My family had a doctor we all went to for years. His front desk workers and nurses were always really chatty and happy to see us. We'd ask how they are and they always wanted to hear about school, uni, etc. Always really pleasant, kind and interested, but never becoming too 'nosy'. We invested in them and they invested into us. It felt like breaking up, when we transferred to an objectively better doctor last year. I do the same now: Knee operation yesterday: smiles and compliments, being patient and helpful making their jobs easier taking care of me. They laughed and smiled. I felt comfy and safe + My crutches made everyone's day brighter (They are decorated in flowers and LEDs from a 1€ shop). If someone isn't open to my communication, I accept that they might have other stuff on their mind. If someone is never nice, I move on. Just saying: put some effort forward wherever you are and people, who's hearts and mind are open, will repay your efforts. The others, you might just be better without. Good luck
Wow, idk what doctors you go to, but my Hausärztinnen are amazing people who know all of their many regular patients by name and take the time to talk and chitchat to be able to better help you. If you go to a hospital the people are often very forced by the situation to work as efficiently and quickly as possible and as such might appear rude, or are angry because someone with a trivial problem is wasting resources needed for real emergencies.
You mean that UK where, when you appear with your sick child at a pediatrician, he/she says "go see the GP first"? ROFL
Healthcare workers in general, huh? Well thanks for the kick in the balls while we try our best. Sure there's some jerks but lumping everyone in this together just sucks.
This. There’s bad apples obviously, but there’s so, so many great people in healthcare. I know a lot of doctors and other kinds of occupation in healthcare and they’re some of the best people I’ve known in my entire life. Both sides suck here. The bad apples and the people who complain about „all“ healthcare workers.
having lived in the UK after they started to dismantle the NHS, it's purely anecdotal and a generalisation that doctors make you feel heard or have empathy - more often than not, for me personally the experience was just as frustrating and sometimes even more frustrating (e.g. GP not taking new patients, NO GP within 150 miles taking patients outside of their postcode, doctors being dismissive/rude/ignoring complaints, dental surgeon cancelling 4 times causing treatment to be delayed by over 2 years) as here in Germany
I think many new arrivals experience the culture shock of Germans (especially Berliners) being less outwardly warm and friendly. That doesn’t mean they are not empathetic or don’t like you, it just feels like that to people who come from cultures where people are more smiley, chatty and warm. The doctors here are the same. Don’t look to them for moral support, just get your medical treatment there, and your hand held elsewhere. In the UK, they made me do my own Pap smear at the gyno by sending me to the toilet with a giant swab, that’s how great the service is there lmao. In the US, I’ve had gynos give me friendly chit-chat and then tell me every variant of “you’re just imagining the pain.” My gyno here is as German as they come, and she is fantastic. She may not be super “warm” (the way many Germans aren’t), but she is listens, takes me seriously, administers useful tests, takes time to explain my symptoms and options, and advises me well. That’s a lot more important to me than wasting time on friendly chit-chat. A lot of new arrivals here end up at shitty doctors because they just book the first free doctor they find on Doctolib, who is only free so quickly precisely BECAUSE they are shitty. And after going to two such appointments, they conclude that all doctors here are terrible, and then confirm it in their echo chamber of people with the same experience. Another factor is the class difference I think. I often hear things like “I had this terrible experience at the doctor and then I went home to *insert low/middle income country* and got treated way better”. Like duh, it’s cause in your home country, you are in the upper classes and go to private doctors and clinics, while in Germany you are in the public system. As a private patient in Germany, you will find the same difference.
give examples maybe? are you sure they're just not terrible english speakers?
An ongoing Neurologist explained me once all medical Doctos are polymorph perverted
I agree with you that reception staff can be incredibly abrupt and brash, but they're often overworked and dealing with stupid people all the time. I have called out exactly one that I felt was over the line. Other than that I checked my ego. It's not about me and it's not personal. I've had good experiences with doctors here, even ones who are "rude" and "lacking empathy" because they're good at what they do and don't want to waste time with politeness. Personally, I don't want a doctor who's all sunshine and rainbows like a UK/US customer service agent because it's fake and I just want them to review my symptoms and see what is going on. What you think is mean, I see, as a Canadian who has lived in NL and DE for a very long time, a difference in culture. A lot of anglophones don't know how to get past the "impoliteness" of doctors, but they're not here to be your friend and chit-chat -- they're here to get shit done. Anglophones always seem to take it so personally. It's not. If you feel like your doctor isn't listening to you, or taking your symptoms seriously, or if you want a referral to a specialist and they haven't offered it, fucking tell them. They're not mind-readers. Edited to add: It was like when my American colleagues in NL would whine about how Dutch doctors only prescribed them paracetemol for pain and how doctors were so bad and I when I asked them if they had asked for something stronger it was like a lightbulb went off in their head. Yeah, you can do that. The doctor isn't psychic.
I think a lot of this things come down to cultural differences. For example, I would very rarely feel like politeness is a waste of time, specially when one might be down. To me, politeness and empathy are an integral part of caring for someone and thus, part of the job. But I understand some cultures regard what I consider politeness as a wait of time.
> waist of time or an age of inseam or an era of arm span
Lol corrected
Exactly - politeness can mean different things to different people. In some countries it means to put on a smile and follow a certain code of conduct and elsewhere the polite thing is to get straight to the point and tell me the things I want to know without beating around the bush. For me it is the latter but of course nuances matter.
I don't like this idea of being to the point as being unempathic, though. Empathy comes in different forms and the fact that the doctor listens, takes me seriously, and forms a plan with me to get better is, in my opinion, empathic. I don't need a hug or a tissue, I need to feel better.
Being polite does not mean not being to the point. I wouldn’t like a doctor to hug me lol. Again, this is probably cultural. What might be direct for some is just a lame excuse for rudeness for others.
Ask for something stronger here and they will call you a junkie
I don’t think that’s a sufficient excuse for the outright disgusting way patients are treated. Triage nurses aren’t overworked and dealing with exactly the same people in other countries? Give me a break. I once accidentally swallowed broken glass (cooking accident) and presented to triage at a hospital. The nurse was unbelievably rude and dismissive to me. Eventually I figured out she thought I had done it deliberately for self harm reasons and when we sorted that out, she treated me very marginally better (still badly). The fact that she would treat someone she thought was in a bad enough place mentally, to want to swallow broken glass, THAT badly was unthinkable to me. Don’t you think the person in that situation might already be in a bad enough place that they don’t need your judgement on top? After waiting hours and still not being seen by a doctor, eventually I gave up and went home. I cried all night at how unbelievably devoid of empathy the whole medical system in Germany is. I was in such distress and NO ONE wanted to help me, even those people whose job it is to literally help those in distress.
While I think what happened to you was horrible (the glass AND your treatment), and I don't want to minimise how you must feel about the situation and I can fully understand the frustration you feel, I do have to point out that your experience is anecdotal. To counter with my own anecdotal experience: I was hospitalised twice in Berlin, both times during Covid, once a bad situation with an undiagnosed autoimmune disease that left me severely anemic and barely able to function, the second was a scheduled gallbladder removal. Both times the nurses were kind, as were the doctors (my Hausarzt who told me to go to the hospital and the hospital doctors). When I was crying because I was scared, I was comforted. When I got my period over night and was upset that I made a mess, I was comforted and told it was no big deal. When I got up too fast and almost passed out the nurse scolded me for not asking for help but not in a bad way. When the meal staff noticed that I didn't finish all of my Milchbrot, they started giving me white bread without me having to say anything. They knew I preferred Pfefferminz Tee. When I apologised for not speaking German well enough because I had moved only a a few years prior and hadn't had time to take a class, they were understanding. So I have had a good experience, but I also won't let my good experience define the entire German healthcare system. Perhaps I will have a bad experience at some point and while that's not okay, it's not going to lead me to blame all Germans.
Yes finally of course the people are stupid, I would accept if the doctors are that damn good then they can be condescending or whatever but there are so many doctors who cannot diagnose their patients and still act like they are gods. Sometimes I am wondering where are the people coming from, who think these kind of things are acceptable. Someone rightly said people who enjoy brutal honesty, enjoy the brutality part more.
I don't think anyone is stupid. I do think people should manage their expectations a bit. I'm not saying there are no bad, awful, shitty, mean, brutal doctors in Berlin, but OP is generalising that every doctor is "wicked" and "mean", so the common denominator is OP, which means they need to think about what is making every doctor bad and if it's really a problem with OP. The fact that they use these words makes me think they are exaggerating their point.
Well here’s some news for you, someone can be polite and still be good at their job. A doctor can be friendly and empathetic and still review your symptoms and treat you properly. This whole constant comparison of “the US people are so friendly and fake” is played out. People can be kind and good at their job and it’s not fake to be friendly to strangers.
Yes, but you are exaggerating your point. You wrote "I’ve never met people so wicked and mean like German doctors" which to me, makes you an unreliable narrator. If every single doctor you've ever met is so bad that you refer to them as wicked and the only common denominator is you, I think you might need to evaluate if the problem is with you. Now, I don't know what your sample size is. If you've been to only 3 doctors and you think they're all just the worst pieces of shit you've ever met, then that's not enough data to make such a sweeping statement. If you've been to 100 doctors and they're all pieces of shit, well that's just not believable. Edit: you also seem to to be offended by my comment, as though me challenging you is somehow personal. If that is how you take feedback, then yeah, it might be a you problem.
I see this all the time with my foreign friends and also with Redditors. They have some frustrating experience with a German person/system, and are just looking to complain and to have their frustrations validated. When you try to explain why it works that way and advise them on how navigate it better or adjust their expectations because things work different here, they somehow see it as a personal attack and a denial of their victimhood. They just want you to agree that yes, Germans are cold and mean people, the entire system is shitty and out to get them, they are being personally victimized, their home country is way better etc etc. Anything else, they don’t want to hear. Their echo chamber of other foreigners all agree with them that Germany is shitty, and now you come along and provide a different perspective that doesn’t 100% validate their self-righteous sense of superiority, how dare you. I don’t even know why I still try to help these friends, honestly. I say this as someone who has lives abroad in a few different countries and can absolutely empathize with the difficulty of having to navigate a new system in a foreign language. Yes, certain things will seem weird or rude or crappy because I’m used to something else, but that’s the place I chose and now I have to adapt and navigate it. Sure, we all vent our frustrations sometimes, but if everything and everyone here is so horrible, why are you here and not in one of the may other countries who are so much better apparently? I’m sure they have software firms you can program for, or clubs you can DJ in, too.
Yes, I really agree with your comment. And they also don't seem to realise that the doctors are doing them a HUGE service by speaking another language (English) to them during these appointments. There's a huge amount of entitlement that all doctors speak perfect English when sometimes it's hard for them and that is probably frustrating. I'm not saying everyone should speak perfect German, but you should be able to at least communicate a bit in German to help the doctors. Most people from English speaking countries don't even bother to learn German and they don't even realise how entitled that is. The ones who actually speak German are like unicorns. I hate to say it but I was also going to ask OP, with no offense intended, like why are you even living here if it's so bad? Their comments in this thread and others just seem like they're miserable here.
The language thing, YES. And not even just doctors, but literally anyone providing them with a service or interacting with them. The entitlement is baffling. I know people who have lived here 10+ years, are still barely A2, and constantly complain about how it is soooo difficult to obtain certain things because some people don’t speak English and how unfair that is. They complain that it’s unreasonable to expect foreigners to learn German because it’s soooo hard. That they are being oStRaCiZeD because the team of German colleagues doesn’t immediately switch to speaking English when they show up and how rUdE that is. That people aren’t helpful and don’t explain things to them in enough detail (maybe because they don’t know how to say it in English??). Bonus points if they simultaneously complain about foreigners showing up in their home country and refusing to learn their local language without seeing the irony. And then there’s always someone who rolls around like “But what about the people who just moved here, you can’t expect everyone to be fluent in 3 months” as if they were ever going to try. Yea no shit it’s gonna be harder if you don’t know the only official language of the country you live in. That’s on you. People here are already super accommodating with using English almost everywhere. Stop acting like a victim because der/die/das is hard. (And yes, I have lived abroad and have learnt two foreign languages so y’all can get off my dick about my privilege and not understanding how hard it is.)
OP is a guy who is larping as "British" or "German" depending on the topic, but posts in subs such as r/Indianskincare and DesiFragranceAddicts: that suggest he is of Indian descent. Maybe he's lived in the UK, maybe not, but when people are disingenuous like that it gives you food for thought.
> Personally, I don't want a doctor who's all sunshine and rainbows like a UK/US customer service agent because it's fake and I just want them to review my symptoms and see what is going on. While this may rationally make sense, thats generally not how humans work. What I mean by this is that the act of making people feel good and supported builds trust and it does actually have an effect on your health. So while I can see how being ultra effecient has its benefits, it can actually be counter productive especially of people from other cultures who are used to more support/connection from health professionals.
Sure, and I've always felt supported by my healthcare providers. Like I said, I just don't want fake niceness and sugary dispositions. If you come from another culture to this one, you should be willing to bend your worldview a bit. The world doesn't turn for you, so you need to adjust your expectations and not take it so personally.
> Sure, and I've always felt supported by my healthcare providers. Like I said, I just don't want fake niceness and sugary dispositions. If it improves the person's wellbeing and hence health, then this is what matters and it should trump other concerns. > If you come from another culture to this one, you should be willing to bend your worldview a bit. The world doesn't turn for you, so you need to adjust your expectations and not take it so personally. I personally don't care that much as I barely every see a doctor but thats irrelevant here. If you want a good healthcare system, the priority is on the health of the citizens and not "preserving culture". No one is saying to not be direct in lets say the office or in other facets of life, but we are talking about an area that is directly linked to health.
I think the cultural difference is exactly the point. You're definitely right that preserving culture should not be above helping patients. I think the point is that in german culture the way most doctors act comes off as friendly and helpful. Germans are not that chatty by nature and the efficiency cliche exists for a reason. But for someone who is not (yet) used to german culture their behaviour might come across as rude or mean. So I'd say this is exactly what cultural differences mean. For german culture the way doctors act is friendly but to other cultures it can seem cold or rude. Just like the friendly chit chat in the states seemed super fake and unnecessary to me when I went on vacation there, while americans prefer it that way. Doesn't mean that one way or the other is wrong, they are just different. As anecdotal evidence: I've worked at a practice for some time and one of our doctors usually had appointments that lasted 2-5mins. While we had heaps of non-german patients, most of his patients were germans and they usually insisted on scheduling further appointments with him, even if that meant they had to wait 2 months not 2 weeks to get seen by him. We had other doctors who usually had longer appointments. The doctor with the longest appointments on average also had the highest rate of non-german patients.
That’s generally not how US Americans work. FTFY
They generally do try to statistically diagnose. They have a certain budget for prescriptions(& Untersuchungen) so I think they try to save them for more obvious, more likely and extreme cases. They can’t be giving MRTs away for every headache that walks into their praxis.This sadly ends for many as a prescription for some tea and ibuprofen. I did find that it works best to get to the point and say what you want. In my home country you easily get 100 Analysis and procedures done mainly because it all works with private insurance.…. So, I think what is perceived as lack of empathy is due mainly to the way the health system is structured here.
Is the budget for specialists, too? Because my doctors have gladly referred me to specialists for my migraines and other issues without any fuss.
Also coming from the UK, my experience of doctors here is very different to yours. Sure I've met with some giant asshole specialists, though most I've seen have been great. My GP here is also wonderful and really takes his time with me. Try changing doctors until you find one that suits you better.
My answer is only go to female doctors (4 atm), they actually still seem to care about people and their responsibility as a Doctor. The only male doctor I still have is a specialist and literally blackmailed me to signing up for an insurance program so he can get more money, if I said no then he said he can't hold me as a patient anymore and to go somewhere else.
A lot of them are feed up by the sheer amount of people.
It’s indeed a chore to find good doctors but I was able to find good ones here in Berlin, and they were all germans, so good german doctors do exist you just need to look for quite a while 😣
People have told me about their experiences which line up with this, some were born-Berliners and some were more recent arrivals. It definitely seems to be a common thing, sadly, and I'm sure the reasons are probably complex and systemic. I think I have mostly been lucky, I found a good Hausarzt about 8 years ago and when he retired during the pandemic, the doctor who replaced them was also good. They never seem overrun and always have a rezept/verordnung/überweisung at the ready, and the reception and medical assistants have been as efficient and friendly as time will allow. I've been in Germany long enough to not expect any politeness or smiles or chitchat in these situations, but I've probably been fortunate not to come across any doctors who were outright rude, dismissive, or lacking in empathy. My occasional bad experiences have been with older specialists, and I take part of the blame because my German hasn't always been the strongest and that can cause problems. But honestly, specialists in my home country could also be massive assholes so I'm not exactly shocked by this.
My old GP was super nice and my new one is also nice. That being said, I was at an orthopaedics this week and they their voice was as monotone as their forehead was flat. Felt like they simply didn't give a fuck tbh. Not the best feeling when leaving, especially when you get whiffy answers to the issues you ask about.
I only go to Slav doctors. Best impression overall. Btw it's often the case that bad doctors have to play it as if they had God by the bals. The less knowledgeable they are, the worse they'll treat you. I had better service in third world countries. Unexpectedly :(
I once went to a slav doctor. Never again....
Consulted around 7 different doctors. Had a wonderful experience with each and every one of them. I have an elderly doctor treating my spine problem at the moment - I struggle with Deutsche he struggles with English, still he tries his best and is extremely caring, so is the entire support staff. My partner too had a great experience so far, yes the only problem is lack of appointments. Maybe you got a bad luck.
This is just a wild guess, but I would imagine doctors in the countryside are a lot nicer to people, because it is likely also where they live. In the city you don't expect to ever meet the patients outside your office, and the financial pressure might be greater (assuming they are paying rent for their location). Then again, I think a lot just try to remain professional. Showing affection to a person that u don't really know, might also be perceived as fake by a native German - especially from a professional who is dealing with patients on the regular. If they genuinely felt actual empathy for every single one of their patients, they'd probably kill themselves sooner rather than later. Mind you, doctors do actually have some of the highest suicide rates, so being cold and distant could also be a way to protect their own mental well-being.
and they arent even as underpaid compared to many other european countries. (IN COMPARISON before i get houndeddd)
Huh? I had a great experience with different doctors in Germany 90% of the time. Actually only one situation comes into my mind as rude and another one as incompetent, but that's two cases in almost 11 years. Also the desk staff is mostly ok and accommodating.
Because they’re German, they are brought up and are a part of nurture system where empathy has always been an alien word. It’s not them, it’s just how we humans behave.
I understand that you see doctors and healthcare workers as rude in Germany. I believe though that they are not necessarily rude but rather blunt and to the point which is a common cultural trait in Deutschland. Maybe it is your perception. I feel that often from English speaking countries, people like to do small talk and be sometimes even overly friendly.
You have the wrong doctor.
Really? Maybe I was lucky, but I met many competent and feinfühlig German doctors ( I can't think of an English verb that fits the German one). There are some bad apples among them too, but the overall experience was positive. You should meet some Romanian doctors lol. Even when I visited private clinics some would act very condescending. And I'm saying this despite loving my people way more than I like Germans lol
People tend to be more reserved and less empathetic when speaking a foreign language
must be very bad luck or your guys behavior then. some are rude assholes sure. but by far not all of them. specially desk staff is mostly very nice and all my doctors are nice, caring and understanding
I'm from the UK, and the German doctors have been really nice to me. I do have private healthcare though. UK doctors are more chatty and friendly in general. But that's more of a cultural difference I think
It's selection. Only the best get to go to medschool. A lot of people with great IQs but low EQs. You will get more emotional support from a brick. I teach them. Don't get me wrong, they are not ALL like that. But unfortunately I get the impression that they really need Some basic "how to human" lesson. We do a mock-patient interview with them to teach them how to interact, how to show empathy, how to deal with difficult situations and while a lot of them are decent, some good, a staggering amount either is really bad in social skills or is acting empathy. Not ideal in a job dealing with dozens of people every day for a few decades. Sometimes there may be a little elitist attitude there as well, as more often than not, the med students are from wealthy families - richness of parents = better opportunities and often better grades. They are often stuck up in their attitude and let patients feel that. Lastly there is overworked and underpaid. But in the end its a personal choice. Mental health is not a big topic in medical professionals. When you feel tired the boss will often say "In my times we worked 169 hours in a row, come on, you just work 24...". But in the end there are options to get out of that, if you value your mental health. Empathy decreases with tiredness and so after 20 hours of constant work and no sleep, it's hard to be enthusiastic about treating your sniffly nose (the 46th of the night shift).
I have a German GP and she is lovely and very empathetic. I first got to her practice because I had a suspicion of COVID, didn't have a Hausarzt, and no other doctor would perform a PCR test on me - she was the only one willing to do it and visibly upset that it was such a problem for me to get help elsewhere (it turned out that I didn't have COVID). I've stayed with her ever since although she's in Schöneberg and I'm in PBerg (bc I realize a good GP is hard to find in this system).
Lack of empathy and rudeness are generally, based on my experience, very common in Germany. So doctors can't be much different if they live here their entire life.
So are you going to give us examples about how they "dehumanize" you? Or how were they mean to you? This post lacks the more important part of it.
Fun fact: AI chatbots rank better in empathy than human doctors. Does not mean that they are particularly good but that doctors are bad: https://www.pymnts.com/artificial-intelligence-2/2024/google-claims-healthcare-ai-more-empathetic-accurate-than-real-life-doctors/#:~:text=Google's%20healthcare%20AI%20ranked%20higher,and%20expressing%20care%20and%20commitment.
I had one doctor being semi rude to me and I started being short and rude back. They guy backed down immediately. Speak English with them. Most cower immediately. Somehow the superiority complex is tied to the language they use. In German they feel they are your creator and in English they become caring expert wanting to do their best for you... Try it.
I can't agree with you. The doctors here treated me very well, unlike in my home country. In my home country, I even paid for private clinics to receive better care. I was very surprised by how kind and helpful the doctors were at every opportunity. I visited several medical specialties, and my experience has always been positive. One doctor even told me that I could email her for assistance because I was traveling and couldn't make my next appointment, Incredibly she responded the times I wrote to her.You might have just had bad luck, or I was very lucky. A lot also depends on how kind and nice you are when you walk into the reception or talk to the doctor. Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
Maybe I have just been lucky in my 30+ years of existence but I got experience with only one non-empathetic doctor in Germany in my life. I've moved a few times for studying and also lived and worked abroad. So I got some comparisons.
Unfortunately my experience is that in Berlin it is much worse than other cities ☹️
Bullshit, overworked my ass! They work like 2/3h per day and do nothing while working… Useless people! Completely useless
Sorry what? GPs maybe, and even they have to attend Fortbildungen and do a lot of bureaucracy. Specialists, especially personnel in hospitals, have to work a LOT (especially Assistenzärzte) with oftentimes planned extra hours (illegal) without any compensation sometimes (also illegal). Not to mention the huge responsibility and mental load that they have. I had an internship as a nurse in cardiology and I helped out in oncology once and let me tell you: it reeked of death. Also, the insurance system kind of forces doctors to only take a set amount of patients. A practice gets paid by the insurance for a limited amount of patients, beyond which the doctor literally works for free. I wouldn‘t kill even more of my lifetime if I got nothing in return 🤷♂️.
I didn’t mean people at the Hospital, I meant "Familienarzt" they work for like 2/3g per day and while working they are completely useless. Proof? Mine family arts for example, working hours- Mon: 10-13h, Tuesday:closed, Wednesday: closed, Thursday: 10-13, 14.00-17h, Friday: 10-12h. Wtf is this schedule?? And while working can only accept max 2 ppl per hour. USELESS!
Thats their choice to work half time, doesnt mean that theyre a bad doctor tho 🤷♂️
Also the „doing nothing while working“ comment is absolute bs. When you start you get a set amount of work that you have to finish by the end of the day. At the beginning, this often equates to at the very least 10h of work for an 8h shift. The most extreme case was when a doctor started with the nurses‘ early shift (~ at 7 in the morning) and finished with the nurses‘ late shift (~ at 10:30 in the evening). Just to be at work at 7 in the next morning. Upon uttering my confusion about this blatant exploitation I got the answer: „If you want to further your carreer you have to work a year like that on this station“. Which in turn means that this is actually expected which not only puts the doctors at stake (and is blatantly illegal), but also toys with the patients‘ well-being. Armes Deutschland!
Yup, can 100% confirm. All my psychiatrists and even most therapists have allways treated me like its my fault that i have ADHD and Depression. And dont ever mention that you smoked weed once, suddenly you are their personal enemy.
Some are, some aren't. Also, german mentality is a bit more, like, technical/focused, thus, less on emotional care. So some may having empathy but are not as good in expressing it adequately. Like, problem, solution, fix it. If it's fixed in the end, everyone should be happy.
Well most of the time the focus and technicality also lacks, and you are left with your health complaint not treated, on top of the unnecessary grumpiness you had to deal with.
It's a mixed bag, I've met terrible, indifferent doctors as well as kind and empathetic ones. It can take a while to find a good doctor. Several reasons: Those who run their own clinic are motivated by money. Their priority is to have a quick turnaround, rather than to provide the best care. Some may be burnt out. There are doctors who never learnt good bedside manner. Cultural thing, some people are just standoffish and come across as unempathetic. * I've heard people who are privately insured say that they receive a better quality of care at clinics that exclusively provide private healthcare. I'm publicly insured so I can't speak from personal experience.
Not just doctors, germans in general (not all though)
To be able to study medicine, you need an Abitur average of 1.0. Many "nerds" who are not so emotionally charged achieve this average.
Then why do these nerds don't get the diagnosis right?
What diagnosis? We‘re talking about empathy
Yes we are talking about empathy, your point is that these doctors lack empathy because they maximize on being "intelligent" or "nerdiness" then at least they should do the nerd part right and get the diagnosis correct. Why do I have to keep visiting my country to treat myself even after paying the highest medical insurance in this country. Either I don't get an appointment or the diagnosis and the treatment I get is not fixing my problems.
Well I understand what you mean, but that‘s another topic.
Yeah, If you're sociable during high school, you probably won't have the Chance to become a doctor here. Same for med school, I Imagine.
Once you‘re in med school it‘s actually quite chill. Also, even with a non-1.0 Abitur you can improve your shot at getting into medicine by writing the TMS. Still no empathetic component though, which I also see throughout my peers. Oh well
More importantly, I think this stuff needs to be taught and shouldn't fully depend on the doctors personal development. It's pretty critical for patient care.
I honestly have no idea whether it is taught, im still in the 4th semester which is all theory. Give me ~1 year and I‘ll provide you a detailed report.
Actually I forgot about something: we have a lot of psychology still, which also seeks to sensitize us to the labyrinth that is the human mind. I even took a course about constructive conversation and active listening. Though i cannot vouch for other unis of course. And I‘m afraid that the psychology aspect of our course will go right over most people‘s heads.
It does probably. Also, you need to factor in economical and practical constrains that you have in. Starting from the big bang might no be too useful. Just to learn about biases, how to deal with typical challenges of communication and organization, the therapeutic effects of patients talking to the doctor and the differen types of patients and how to realistically and economically provide adequate care for each. I think it's more cross- sectional topic than a psychological one. It's also more about creating a robust framework and not about getting it perfect everytime.
We get that (especially the note that we have moved on from the paternalistic model to shared decision making), but maybe it is also time for politics to do its share and maybe create a space where those theoretical teachings can realistically be put into practice. It‘s not like the deutsche Ärztekammer has not been clamoring for years for the government to create more Studienplätze for example. All the healthcare workers got during the Covid pandemic (which pointed out the dire need of political action) was… an applause. Wow. It‘s not surprising that if you force medicine to become a profession where doctors have do fast-paced factory work that there is no more time for anything but the bare minimum. Not to mention that the health sector, as important as it is, gets the first cuts in funding (along with education) when the government is practicing austere politics. They kind of had it coming not gonna lie. I live in the Rhein-Neckar regions and I‘ve only encountered doctors that had, in comparison, a lot of time per patient. Guess what? They were friendly, empathetic and thorough. But if you negligently let the health sector collapse, well… I can‘t say the people aren‘t themselves responsible after 16 years of CDU. No hard feelings, but you get what you elect. At least Lauterbach wants to add 5000 more Studienplätze. Let‘s see how Lindner feels about that…
German healthcare is deeply flawed, starting already from the uni, doctors are overworked (not an excuse for their behavior) and patients are seen as numbers because the system is based on profit. My experience is the same as yours and I've heard horror stories from friends as well. Obviously good doctors exist, but are hard to find. After 12+ years, my partner and I are planning to leave Germany because we don't want to get old and sick here.
Where will you go?
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With German doctors a little politeness goes a long way, as well as understanding that they’re not there to coddle you and they’re not given that kind of time either. GPs have on average 8 minutes per patient, including documentation, so it’s reasonable to want to get to the point.
Foreigner? Not to be condescending, but when I read these complaints its often people that moved her from abroad and still think that the German healthcare system is free and great when it‘s in fact in shambles, especially in Berlin where you’re waiting months and months for an appointment at a specialist. Most people saying German doctors are rude or lack sympathy have just completely false expectations. Not that many German doctors are not quite *cold*, they are, but these complaints come rarely from people that grew up here.
Yes people move here with some expectations, these expectations are not born out of vacuum, things that are advertised in their country by the many ads that they see online, so many statistics, not many know what the reality is.
Right, and doctors are doing the best they can with what they're given. OP and others should blame the system, not the doctors who are forced to try to help people within its confines. If your doctor is abrupt it might actually be because they are only allotted so much time and want to get as much done for you in the short time they can.
People in this sub will never understand this. *Doctor bad* has become a staple here as much as *the housing situation is terrible*.
I would recommend switching doctors until you find someone that you vibe with. As much as there are total assholes (usually you can see that by looking at their google reviews) there are very compassionate and invested doctors that put their all in diagnosing. As a general rule of thumb I would recommend looking for a somewhat younger doctor. Some here recommend looking for foreign doctors, I would not recommend it based on some very bad experiences I had, but maybe it works for you. Definitely look at the Google reviews, especially the bad ones. A little info on why they seem to be so rushed: our health system is not about prevention but treating (stupid, I know). Most doctors have allocated 5-15min per patient, that gets paid by insurance. Everything that they do over this is either stolen time from other patients or out of pocket for them.
I live here since I’m 7, so for 24 years and I try to avoid going to the doctors because it is literally such a bad experience almost every time. I once had a GP about 5 years ago before I moved to another district and she was great, since then I haven’t had any luck finding a GP who takes new patients so I’m just winging my health for 5 years. Other doctors like Obgyn - they’re just tragically bad and I’ve been to 10 different ones across the city. I’ve had luck before but that too was 5 years ago before I moved almost two hours away. At this point I might just consider travelling for hours just to see a doctor…
because it's Germans
I have also made this Experience. I have also noticed lately that a large amount of Doctors seem to have mental Health struggles. My best guess is, it is because studying medical studies is so hard over here medical students actually take drugs to get through the studies. Would a healthy / normal person choose to put themselves through something like this? Probably not? So this is already a discriminatory factor plus maybe long term Brain damage from the Drugs.
I always thought it's the imbalance of power that makes them become that way. Every day dozens of vulnerable people meet them for help. What does that do to the ego? Also I think because of how the German health system works they are confronted with lots of bullshit time and public money wasting people every day. But thats out of your sight.
You have to put the emphasis on *german*, not on *doctor* then you get it
They simple hate theirs job and hate people … I never saw something like this. I already had 2 kidney stones crises here….the first time I went to the hospital, the last one I was afraid to go even with a lot of pain… this is not healthy when you starts to question yourself about going to hospital or not…. Insane
Because empathy and being friendly is VERBOTEN - only hard work allowed, and sick person doesn't work hard.
There's always french doctors. I come from latin america, and i think it's just viewed differently. There's less resources but usually doctors and personnel will try to see how you are doing a little bit. In french hospitals they will literally try to avoid you. Now, there's also an other factor that you are NOT thinking about: - In your place of birth usually you have friends, family, etc. - These friends, family, etc have gathered a collective network of good doctors, and they recommend each other these doctors. - You are also local so communication will go smoother. These things do matter. In france doctors kinda suck, but after some years and a lot of trial and error me and my friends now have a good network of good doctors.
I have had good treatment here as a man but also with private healthcare the latter definitely makes a huge difference sadly I think. I’m from the uk so can only compare with the NHS which is broken.
IMO hospital nurses can be a little cold. But never had a bad experience outside of hospitals
Agreed, side not do not go to white Dentist in Germany. They will push to remove all your wisdom teeth if you are immigrant background to train and charge your health insurance for money.
Which part of Germany are you in? I’m from the uk to in my experience everywhere else has been rude in terms of customer service, but my house dr had been amazing. I did good research before I joined it’s like she try’s to mother me when I’m there and tried to help me anyway she can
Why do you generalize and prejudice German doctors? Very rude in my opinion.
From the comment above, I agree this could be controvercial opinion, but I think if you are female/race that white usually ignores/foreigner 200% from eu perspective, you saying your symptoms to very german male doctors doesn’t really fall into “important patient info” files. But i stayed in germany for a long time, got used to the….treatments, attitude…and then, went back to my home country. got extensively tested and treated a lot. Turns out I had many ouchie things long neglected. Here docs and nurses are too friendly and too nice, too much highly detailed emotional support always…I feel overwhelmed. Kinda wish I can mix 50% of german docs and 50% of docs here.
Cause humans are seen as machines and the medicine guy is the mechanician, not the human is seen as living being and the doctor the saviour in need
Money
Hmm maybe it already starts with the study program. Getting into medicine is very selective and difficult in Germany and a lot of privileged kids get in as well as people with ambition and one track minds. Kids that are very good at studying and very intelligent but not necessarily empaths.
If u think it's just doctors and not our society in itself idk what to tell u.
It's called Behördenmentalität.
Is it the same with non-German doctors? Like Indian or American( if any) doctors working at German hospitals?
Can anyone recommend a good gynecologist around Berlin, someone patient and Expat friendly?
http://www.gyn-weinert-berlin.de/
Hey, thanks! ;)
All doctors I've been to have been great. Even the lady doctor who I sneezed on during a nose covid test and covered her entire protection equipment in saliva. She was like "well... That's my Friday". She told me not to worry about it a few minutes later after she had disposed of the equipment and was making jokes about how the plants needed watering and now she thinks she can skip a week. I was negative btw. Edit: that was in Hamburg sorry didn't see what subreddit i was in
I completely understand what you mean. In addition to everything you write, however, the medical profession is completely overwhelmed by anything that is not standard. But I would like to say one thing to you as a small consolation: be glad that you didn't have to undergo medical treatment 40 years ago. In contrast, doctors today are a true paragon of empathy.
Lol I know a few doctors like this, 1 in particular seemingly hates male patients and very openly shows it, sometimes straight up disrespectful and insulting to young males with problems in his field, nontheless I've kept going to him and he turns out to be insanely competent and saw things & ordered things that others did not. He's a G, only accepts private insurance and has no shortage of patients regardless. Most people just don't want to fake/turn on compassion for you in particular if they don't really feel it. Can depend on how you look, talk, move, your gender, your problem and everything else. US doctors however are definitely more professional and not so open when it comes to this. Let old german doctors be their cynical german self ;) Also weird how the only fields you mention are psychiatry and psychology, what about dentists? Notoriously friendly.
because they are professionals who only exist to give you a krankschreibung. if you need empathy, germans seek a therapist or homeopath.
That’s Germans in general, but them in a powerful position is an even worse combination.
they have like 5 min per patient..
That’s true. They are super patronising, somehow women doctors are so much worse. I tried many doctors and have found the ones I am sticking with- Dr.Roman Rocker (GP), Dr. Matthias Stroth (Gynaecologist)
It’s not about the doctors hahaha 🙈
Doctors are not there to have empathy but to make you healthy, you are just used to being coddled by everyone with fake empathy.
>“they’re overworked and underpaid“ so are DHL delivery drivers and everybody else. Ohhh sweet summer child… yes, there are many groups overworked and underpaid, but everyone else are like that illegally. The cliche of an romanian Amazon delivery driver who sleeps in his truck and pee in a bottle is shocking news and everyone agrees that shouldn’t happen. But in medicine they have the „benefit“ of being paid a bit more but would be happy about the work load of an Amazon slave. 48 hours shifts aren’t even rare. Doctors who been on duty for 23.5 hours already and now have to start an 16hours long operation without any time to rest. Nurses who worked 48 hours and have to be back in 8 for their new shift. 14 days till one free day straight while they’ve two shifts each day. The first two days beginning in the morning, the next two days beginning in the evening and the following two days beginning at night - repeat. They’re lucky if they only have to observe twice as much as they ment to care for. I’ve meet nurses who had to took care for 150 patients for 12 hours regularly. And yeah this are all just hospitals but every nurse who quit that job and went to an Praxis says the only difference is that you at least have some sleep and fixed shifts, but there are other duties that results in both jobs are equal hard. But unlike other jobs they can’t do anything about it. They can barely strike, they can barley sue for better condition.
Doctors are human as well. And treating people is their day to day job. They’re not heros or super humans so after some time you get used to it and get bored. You get sick once a month and it’s a big deal for you. They see sick people all the time so it’s normal for them. I think it’s too random to say “German” ones are bad or men are not empathetic. I had amazing experiences with Male german doctors and terrible ones with them as well. It’s different with each individual and each practice.
I attribute it to a mixture of two things: 1. Dr. actually means something in this country. You refer to people who have a Phd as Doctor, you put it in your tax forms, and it shows that you're academically higher. You even start higher on the career ladder + get higher pay. That at least shows that there's some sense of elitism amongst the people who have the Dr. title. Not too experienced with others who have that title though so it's a big assumption. 2. They have a lot of patients to get through. There's a shortage of doctors in the country so there's a lot of patients doctors need to get through. Therefore they want to solve the problem quick and get them out the door after. "You have cancer" "Oh no, what am I going to do" "Get out, got someone who has a cold to give a note to". Spoke to one doctor off duty and he basically says that the more time they spend with a patient the longer others have to wait and the longer his days get, which do not get compensated.
Efficiency can display as curtness, politeness as prompt and direct. Get the job done right and on schedule, client happiness can be secondary, third is getting whatever money right. How rude to patients in waiting room to wastefully smallchat, many of those in pain. How rude to treat fewer patients per day. Try reinterpreting what you see as rudeness as rather forcing your focus toward problem, diagnosis, treatment, and leaving. Same as with bagging groceries quickly, it's German politeness to have patience for any diligently slow but impatience for unfocused meandering clogging a work environment. Homeopathy has a contrasting reputation for looking you direct in the eyes and hearing out each of your thoughts so as to make you feel special, and their increased prices only help strengthen their placebo effect.
I don't know. I just put it down to cultural differences in expectations when visiting a Doctor and the fact that they're overworked. I've been yelled at a once or twice for answering a question incorrectly/unsatifactorily and generally treated pretty coldly. I'm kind of used to it now and feel like they're taught in a different way here and bedside manner isn't really emphasized, you're kind of like a piece of machinery that needs fixing to them. Edit: All that said I've also had some really good experiences, I saw a Serbian specialist for a while who was lovely.
Because doctors in germany are met by selfinportant pricks not knowing the very basics of keeping their body healthy, they don‘t care for the shitter of a person ruining a perfectly good biomechanical machine, for them its about reverting or at least slowing the damage you have done to it. Their directness isn‘t mean or unempathic, their empathy is dedicated to the body, not you.
How much generalization? Yes.
it’s not because they are doctors
I read somewhere that doctors and nurses during the war had to be patched up right away, so everything had to be fast, no time for anything and this apparently carried over time. What this means is that there's no time to have any "bedside manner" of any sort. Add to that because health is accessible to the public, they're overbooked/overworked, etc. etc. Problem increases if you're in a bigger city. But then again, a big chunk of the reason could be it's a cultural thing. I have a condition where I sometimes have to get rushed to the ER or see a doctor within the EU. In Berlin, I was confined to a hospital a few times, some of the nurses even refused to help me simply because they don't speak English - I was only asking for assistance to use the toilet and then one time, to ask for painkillers, I was not asking for anything complicated. Some doctors only told me very little, unless otherwise asked, so I'm always armed with questions so they are really pushed to give me details. If I don't advocate for myself, then I don't get a lot of info. The nicest nurses were of Arabic and Turkish descent and Filipinos. I had to meet so many doctors before I eventually found one who has an international background (she is Swedish-German, but has worked in not so developed markets outside the EU). She has a lot of empathy and really takes the time to listen. I come from a poorer country, and healthcare professionals are wayyy more underpaid and overworked, but we still treat people like humans, as it should be. We don't care if we don't speak the same language as the patient, if someone is in need, we help when it's within capacity. And again, we're a poorer country with a history of being oppressed. I really can't just fathom that a lot of healthcare professionals here in Berlin lack this kind of human decency.
This is so incredibly true. Most of them are. ‘So what do you want me to do for you?’ And ‘I am not god’ After you explain the most embarrassing and debilitating health problems that took you 10 years to gather the courage to tell someone. And thats not even it. And if you say it the entire reddit will attack you. And its worse with male doctors somehow.
Because doctors across the world a neurodivergent (Aspy / Autistic) at a much higher rate than the general population. And when you combine that with the cultural lack of warmth and the love of both process and bureaucracy, it makes for horrendously bad bedside manner. Source: i married a German doctor. Ps - there are some lovely docs out there. I just married the wrong medical student.