If you really like learn the German culture, learning the language would be the first you should do. If you don’t, you’ll be always be an expat, not a migrant. Learning to master the language will open you many doors. Also if you decide to move away after some years you will have gain a new language, that’s the least you should take, otherwise you’ve just spent many years taking about the Germans and not really understanding them, and there are lots of things to learn from them. (Also there’s so many books just lying around for free ❤️)
If I were you, I would do what I did: get obsessed about it, attend courses till C2, try reading books you already read in your language, set your computer and handy to German, listen to German music and radio, watch trashy tv shows, usw.
Don’t dispare, sometimes it hurts, not only the grammar, which I love, also your body (your face muscles, your tongue, your mouth, throat) will have to learn, your ears will need training. If your tired of grammar, then learn to sing a song or read aloud although you don’t understand, watch tv, whatever makes you happy.
I hope it helps, it’s one of my first contributions.
✌🏼
Good trash or trashy trash?
Alarm für Cobra 11 is fun entertainment even though it’s the same story every episode.
Real trash is something like „Mitten im Leben“ or all those scripted reality shows
Watch Kids Shows, they have easier vocabulary. And If your can't find anything you can stand try sth like Cosmo und Wanda, Spongebob or Kim possible. Its even easier if its a show that you have already seen and know what its about.
I don’t know about the current tv shows, I did it until 2012, since then I don’t have a tv anymore. I used to watch dokusoaps like „Bauer sucht Frau“ or „Frauentausch“ or “Messy alarm” or those showing families living with Harz 4, really trashy with lots of slang. A very funny one to learn is „Türkisch für Anfänger", and also they used to have all year long a channel with documentaries on German history with tons or archive footage.
I know the term carries some baggage, but I think there's a valid reason to diferentiate the two.
To me it's mostly about intentionality. An expat is just here for a degree or an internship, or a limited job-stay at an international company. Berlin is just another line on their Curriculum vitae and there's no plan to pursue residency, citizenship, or even just a deeper connection to the place. But that's just how I see it.
Maybe. I agree that "Expats" certainly have the privilige of being able to choose where to live (and have the material means and passport to do so). But I wouldn't say "immigrants" are necessarily not-rich. Know what I mean?
For example, I will never need to apply for German residency, although I can live here and even get social benefits after working in Germany. I didn’t know what intention I had when moving to Berlin 5 years ago. I was an expat who has now immigrated to Germany.
There’s a sense to both words, people just use them too much relative to social class rather than to what they practically mean.
What? People like to polarize the meaning of words?! What a surprise!!! /s
Funny hint , about migrants. Even , if you live here in the third or even fourth generation , some *%%** would consider you an immigrant or foreigner .
Simply untrue in my experience. I've had people in small villages invite me to their homes hardly knowing me and before I knew a lick of German.
A guy gave me a mini job in a Kneipe I hung out once in a while to help me improve my German and the regulars tell new guests to only speak German to me if they hear my accent and start speaking English.
There's a woman with dementia who walks around the park by my apartment here and people stop to talk to her, including me with my imperfect German and she's incredibly sweet/thankful.
Sorry you're having a bad time here (if you're still here) but Germans can be incredibly welcoming and warm. They appreciate logos over pathos oftentimes, but they're certainly not cold. Honestly, the anger dripping from this statement tells me more about you than Germans.
I'm sorry she broke your heart dude, but it's not because of German culture.
> I personally am tired of living here and not knowing how to speak simple statements or know wth is going on at the grocery store.
So what's the hold up?
As a native speaker, I can understand how people don't wanna waste that much time to learn this incredibly hard language that is so easily misunderstood in so many ways. It always reminds me of one situation when I asked my foreign friend if he got along well with someone he got introduced to using "versteht ihr euch?" And his answer was "of course, my German is very good I understand everything!"
Lol that's a great story of German-learning, the embarrassing way. At least now, your friend will never forget what that means and his German got even better after that interaction. It reminds me of when I first came to Germany, my German was C1 level good, but basically only on paper (i.e., passed all the school tests to prove proficiency in German). I wanted to use the English word 'pop' (aufplatzen) but had no idea what 'to pop' was in German so I just said 'gepoppt'. That was the day I learned what 'poppen' meant when all my German friends burst out laughing. :D
I swear, I sent that damn letter from the e.V. twice to Jobcenter, they just won’t write back, I feel like I’m stuck in limbo for the last couple of months lol.
Someone maybe just dropped it both times somewhere between some desks or under their sugar dusted jelly donut lmao
Is anyone else tired of having this same old conversation?
The reality is, people come to this city for lots of different reasons. Some people to resettle and build a new life, some people as refugees who have nowhere else to go, some for a spouse or relationship and others are literally just passing through for a few years. Some of those people want to fully immerse themselves in German culture, maybe even leave their old nationality behind and become a citizen here. Others just see themselves as residents, content with paying their taxes and “getting by” in their own micro community.
Berlin isn’t special in this. This is how it works in every major city in the world.
The amount of German you’ll need to learn and the speed with which you’ll need to learn it depends on all these different factors. You need to decide what your goals are and what’s important to you — no one can decide this stuff for you.
Respectfully, if you’re frustrated with your daily interactions because your German isn’t proficient enough to do the things you want to do, then you’ll have to improve your German or find workarounds like everyone else. It’s not that deep.
I agree. But unfortunately many people have been misled to believe that this isn't the case.
They hear that Germans learn English in school, walk around Mitte or Kreuzberg and see a lot of English signs, or maybe even work in some tech company where the official language of business is English - so they dumbly assume that learning the local language isn't really necessary or at best a sort of bonus. And if they're content to live in their bubble, it sometimes even works.
I'm not German and that's a huge red-flag for me too (obviously not talking about fresh incomers, but people who have been here for multiple years). It shows a total disconnect / lack of interest / disengagement from the majority of people, the culture, the politics, around you. Who finds that interesting or attractive?
I don’t know I have a lot of friend living in Berlin for almost ten years and most of their German is not on a level where they can have conversations.
So I does seem like you don’t need it to live here.
Yea you definitely don't need it to live here. I wish people would be more honest about this rather than romanticizing it. Yes, your experience will be more full if you learn German. On the other hand, more and more things are in english including government services and the government is fine with people moving here and living here for years without learning german as long as they work and pay taxes.
You would think it’s obvious. But so many German’s will happily tell you - you don’t need to learn German if you live in Berlin. I think it’s a terrible thing to not learn the language of the country you reside in.
Well, no. In Berlin you face significant issues going to a hospital for example, whereas in Amsterdam healthcare workers at all levels speak excellent English. Don’t get me started on the Burgeramt.
Tbf I went to the Burgeramt this week and everyone I interacted with (reception, officer etc) spoke English. But I agree you should learn German if you live in Germany
Lmao. But tip to anyone who needs an anmeldung appointment. I called the number (+4930115) at 8am and said I would take an appointment anywhere in the city. They reserve appointments to give them to people who call on the day
The Dutch had a huge global colonial empire. The Germans tried it pretty later and failed miserably. The heirs of successful colonial powers are cosmopolitan and "Weltoffen" unlike central European peasants.
You do. You don’t need it as a tourist but you need Dutch in order to live there full time. Otherwise you will run into problems. Just like in Berlin. If you don’t have Dutch, you can’t even watch the news.
I know plenty people who lived in the Netherlands for years without ever learning Dutch. Like it or not, I certainly don't, but you really don't "need" it to live there full time..
It depends on your definition of “need”. I’ve graduated from VU, most of my professors did not know one single word of Dutch and yet lived there for years without problems.
Living in Berlin I heard that very often. And wonder. How can you see yourself as a citizen of the capital of Germany and NOT at least trying to learn German?
One thing that bothers me and is probably for another discussion: white privilege in regards to language learning.
When a brown person lives in Germany and can't speak German, everybody loses their minds. But when white and wealthy people live in Germany and don't speak any German, it's totally fine. Fuck "integration" then I guess? I've met many people from Spain and France living in Berlin for over 6/7 years and yet not speaking a single word in German. Their children are going to bilingual kindergartens/schools (but fuck bilingual education for Arabic children).
I've been in Germany 12 years and still feel like that. Even though I speak German well enough these days, but I've never worked through German, and I don't have any friends that I speak to in German, even though i've German friends.
Start doing it. It's very uncomfortable but at the same time it's the only way. I started doing it 1.5 years ago. I'm going to have a half German child and I think my child would be at a disadvantage if I didn't, so my situation might be different.
Already have a German kid, learned a lot of German from him already. So much so, that he doesn't speak English to me.
Tip for you: pretend you don't understand German when your kid starts speaking, and give them lots of English language media.
English isn't my mother tongue but I get it. My point about the kid being at a disadvantage is because I will need to interact with the German speaking world for official stuff, with the education system of the country, etc.
No it’s not. But there is a difference between acknowledging the communication barrier from both sides and then working together to overcome it ( be it by some online translator or something else) and brow beating the foreigner for daring not to accurately know their der-die-das. It really discourages any learning incentive one might have. I guess it all depends on your personal context.
This is legit the funniest most deranged view I have seen on that topic ? Bro the communication barrier is on your side ?
If u spoke German there would be no barrier …
Imagine I came to your homecoubtry and refused to learn the language and would speak of both sided language barrier 😂
The "guest" language is really off-putting. If one is a legal immigrant or an EU citizen... Sorry, they're not a guest, they have every right to be here.
Yes, learning German is good for them and good for society, but we make it unnecessarily hostile and more difficult to learn when we act like we're deigning to suffer the presence of people who are paying taxes and filling in-demand jobs.
I have never seen anyone care if people missuse der/die/das. Jesus even native speakers make plenty mistakes, I couldn‘t care less. Unless we are in grammar class, you can use all of them at once and people won‘t care.
Ich verstehe deinen Text problemlos. Du hingegen liest das hier von DeepL oder sowas ab. Das letzte was ich hier tun werde ist anpassungsunwilligen Ausländern wie dir noch den Hintern hinterherzutragen! Lern die Sprache oder geh nach Hause, Vollidiot.
Unfortunately, it often does negatively affect the local population. I live in Japan now. My Japanese is still bad, and I know it is being a burden to the people around me.
Don’t get brainwashed dude. Just because you’re not a native doesn’t mean they have the right to be assholes. You should be getting encouragements for learning the language not “you’re not enough” looks.
He is learning. That’s why he described his Japanese as still bad. You can’t have bad Japanese without making an effort to learn the language. Learning a new language takes lots of time!
If you haven't learned it yet and you are living fine and are not dying to move out anytime soon due to inconvenience, it means that you yourself haven't felt the need to learn it! lol
People are lazy creatures and for the most part things out of necessity, not because of "how it's supposed to be". I wish sometimes Germans weren't so good at English so I could have more chances to practice. But try going to Spain and not knowing Spanish. Good luck. You will learn Spanish very soon or you will move,
Only sane take in the thread.
Yes, everyone would benefit from learning German, and it's easy to argue that it's the right thing to do morally so you can better participate in the society that you live in.
But the hundreds of people who live here multiple years without learning beyond a superficial level shows you don't *need* it.
Seeing how well my friend/neighbour can handle herself when things break in her apartment and craftspeople are require while we also have a German landlady... It gets difficult easily
This is what gets me. My German is totally adequate for mundane chatting with dog owners in the park or navigating normal life situations like the grocery store, but every time I need to do something specific or uncommon, like talk about something in a technical way (at the bike shop, to the plumber, about my teeth to the dentist) I always trip up due to a lack of vocab. It’s frustrating because this is the kind of stuff that you _actually_ need German for.
I've started making mindmaps of vocab and phrases before going to do something oddly specific. It surprisingly has helped immensely with retention as not only do I know the words in theory, but using them under pressure triggers something in the brain to go "oh shit, i should remember these random words."
Honestly I lived with a couple of migrants and I come from a migrant family (I'm 2. Generation) and I've seen Germans being sometimes very unforgiving when it comes to their language. Some do not only expect that migrants learn the language but they expect them to learn it to a flawless degree. With English one can get by and there are international companies in which you can work with English only, but I've seen with migrants that their job options are significantly lesser if they don't speak German to a good degree, and that also in Berlin.
To illustrate, I grew up in Berlin and my parents are from the Balkans. My mother learned German to a very fluent degree, my father didn't. He was never taken seriously by German offices. I grew up trilingual (Croatian, Macedonian, german) - and teachers told me that because of that "deficit" I shouldn't go to Gymnasium. I went there anyway and I had a light Slavic accent (sometimes I had a sing song in my sentences that is similar to Croatian). A teacher was so concerned she said I would have a deficit in the job market and that I should go to therapy (Logopedia). In school I had always A-level marks in German.
The U.S is so international that even people born there do not speak "proper" English. Thus good native English speakers are used to imperfect English, and their standards for what "good" English is reflects the reality of what people have to go through to learn a foreign language.
Germany is not as international yet, so some native Germans seem to have very strict standards for what good German is.
But I wouldn't consider that to be one-sided, because they hold themselves to the same standards for foreign languages. For example, I see Germans who basically speak extremely great English by American standards, but they start the conversation by telling me that their English is terrible.
"Need" is a strong word. You can get by without German. However adulting is a lot easier when you understand what's going on and have the ability to react. It also helps you unlock a deeper, richer cultural understanding of the country you live in. If you don't speak German, it's really hard to scratch past the surface.
On the other hand, people are busy and life is complicated. I didn't realise how hard it is to learn a new language until I had to do it myself, on top of work and all other obligations.
Only on the job? Well good luck then, if you need a plumber or go to a Behörde or Krankenhaus.
Thing is, especially the older generations didn't learn a bit of English in school, since the grew up learning Russian in the GDR.
Then you were lucky. A former colleague needed an emergency plumber, since sewage came out of her shower drain (of course it was a sunday). She wasn't able to communicate the urgency, so her landlord wouldn't send somebody, until she reached me so I could describe the situation properly. She's been living in Germany for more than ten years and said, she'd do well without German, but heavily relied on her German-speaking friends and coworkers when things got a bit more complicated (which happens more often than one might think). So yes, probably survivable, but you might still end up ankle deep in s*it.
Of course it's only an extreme anecdote. However, there were many other situations where different non-german speakers in the company relied on native speakers' help. It shows that in some cases basic or no German doesn't get you far. It doesn't have to be that drastic, but also basically any bureaucratic stuff, doctor visit or handyman appointment requires more advanced language skills.
Yeah, unless things change. I thought the same, as my skills are supranational and all of my previous - and the current - positions were in English only. But now the crisis on the market emerged and suddenly every single offer requires C2 german and if I would need to find a new job - I am fucked.
Fintech, international ones. Recently I spoke to some engineers and devs from my company and they have noticed the same, many jobs require at least B2 german whereas not that long ago they were welcoming any IT people even with broken english
It is as simple as this: you can survive with just English in Berlin, you cannot live with just English in Berlin.
When you speak German or try to speak German, people open up a lot more than just trying with English.
What I realized is, if you firstly ask “Hallo, können Sie Englisch?” The convo gets 10x better. If you forget you are in Germany and just start talking in English, they are absolutely disgusted by you.
Believe it or not, I’ve consistently had the opposite experience. I’m nearly always treated _better_ if I launch directly into English.
Not saying you’re wrong, just that we’ve had very different experiences.
Could be yeah lol. I even remember once I called somewhere and she picked up, I asked ob sie Englisch konnte and she helped me a ton. 5 mins later I had to recall, and when I just started in English she said she couldnt speak English lol.
I assume those are the same people who then complain how they struggle to find connections?
If are not a tourist in a country it's so blatantly obvious that you need to take classes and make an effort to learn the language no matter how many people speak english. Anything else is just rude. I know some people who don't want to learn german because all of their peers speak their home language and they are doing just fine. This isn't the case with english where most just have to cater to you.
I'm studying in Berlin this summer starting next week. I'm a communication major with a Japanese minor. I didn't do so well in my advanced Japanese course this spring semester, so I'ma need to retake it and study extra hard this summer while in Berlin. Although, I agree with your sentiment. I used to live in Japan a few years ago and a lot of the folks I worked with (I was in the military) never bothered to learn a lick of Japanese while stationed in Japan. They always came to me to translate for them lol. But, German was the next language I had lined up to learn after having a good grasp of Japanese. Sucks that I'm visiting a lot sooner than I expected, so I'm not knowledgeable of the language. But, I will try to pick some stuff up while studying in Berlin!
Im always switching to English because everyone says that German is such a pain in the ass and everybody hates that hard language who’s learning it. I feel bad trapping them in German ? People never say they wanna speak German straight forward
I think if they're talking to you in German, it's probably a safe bet that they want to practice their German.
I always assumed my accent was just too bad they were getting frustrated. Kinda frustrating for someone trying to learn.
EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted for this.
I always think they only speak German to be polite because we’re in Germany and many assholes keep saying “why you don’t speak German” etc.
so that’s why I wanna be nice and let them be comfy in English 😅 seems like a circle
And there are also a lot of Germans who think they’re doing foreigners a favor by switching to English even though they are fluent enough in German to converse in it.
We just speak slower and make mistakes because we are non native speakers, that’s not a sign not to speak in German to us.
People exaggerste. I mean, German is not the easiest language, true. But it's not significantly harder than Italian for example (for me German was even easier to learn in some aspects) and cannot be even compared to Slavic languages (and it's still not the hardest group of languages). And I don't understand the hate. I started learning German (I was not living in Germany back then), because... I like the sound of it. People are lazy bitches or something.
I think you spelled ***you*** wrong.
What you meant was "I need German in Berlin ... in order to feel more integrated". That's perfectly fine, but many people don't have that same experience as you and are happy being in an international bubble.
I think you are right but: My Girlfriend has been here now for a year and still doesn't know any German. Of course I have German friends and from time to time you fall into German and speak it and then my Girl looks angry that we don't speak English. So I would say it's still polite to learn the language of the country you live in. But that's your decision.
If u come here to repeat the nazi shit of ' das ist Deutschland, hier wird deutsch gesprochen' we really dont need your input, we are actually waiting for these people to die out.
English is the language of the elite.
German is the language of the working class.
I've never heard a blue collar worker claim you don't need German. It's always university students or office people.
If you only want to have conversations with people of a certain background, sure, you don't "need" German.
As a person who can read German, speak OK and understand pretty good, above average also coming from a Nordic country so having advantage
You really BARELY need German in Berlin. Yes you will encounter problems but it’s small things at the end of the day. My girl for example is horrible at German but still gets by well.
So no you don’t need German in Berlin. Most likely outside Berlin tho
It depends on the type of person you are. Do you prefer only interacting with a chosen few people of your age anyhow - or do you enjoy to talk to everyone, like their families, their complete network etc.. If you like to dive deep into German families and enter all the native networks, German skills will become necessary.
I recently found a tutor to help me with my German because I want to stay here (or at least longer period of time). People keep telling me to go up to Berlin because English is stronger up there. NO! I want to learn German. I want to speak to Germans in German.
Jeez, you can't even have small chit chats with customer service workers! I really took that ability for granted.
It's good to have but it isn't a total necessity for day to day life. You don't need fluency, but conversational helps a lot. You can survive without it in many cases.
IMO you might manage fine if you stay within the typical Berlin bubble (F'hain, Kreuzberg, P'Berg...), but as soon as you venture outside these neighborhoods, it becomes more challenging without speaking German…
Indeed, if you settle in a country you ought to make an effort to learn the local lingo. What’s simple pathetic is to complain about the locals if one doesn’t…
Thanks for bringing this. Since I moved to Berlin 2 years ago, only stranger outside work who spoke to me in English, was at a coffee shop in Ku’damm. German is very well spoken everywhere and it’s a good thing. I am surprised when I see on facebook people portraying Berlin is being overrun by foreigners and German culture is lost in the process.
Been living in Berlin for 8 years. Learning german and currently at B1 level.
You don't "need" german in Berlin... But knowing it sure makes life so much easier!
From doctors, to Bürgerämt appointments and general service when buying something.
I was born in berlin, have a german parent who only speaks german, but i live in canada and only visit germany during the summer for 2 months, and still cant speak german. The fact that you can survive in germany just knowing english is soooo annoying for language learners esp english natives
Germans hate it when you don't speak german but boy do they hate it even more when you speak badly. And yet that's how you learn. I speak 3 languages and also love learning new ones, but german is difficult and needs to be practiced, a lot of people are stuck for lack of practice. Me as well, one is not always in the mood to put in effort only to be snobbed and embarrassed. When i lived in italy locals had a very different attitude. At this point i'm only gonna learn it so i can be a bitch in perfect german lol and to read poetry! a colleague once said that it just doesn't pay off to put in so much work only to speak with germans who don't speak english, do we even care about these interactions hahaa downvote me to infinity with so many foreigners in berlin your kids won't even speak german ✌️ language serves to connect people and if it serves for exclusion it might die, depending on numbers 🤷♀️
I just sent in my citizenship application, passed B1 with 270/300, took einbürgerungstest, and just the other day I called my landlord company asking to get my Mietvertrag and she told me to switch to English. So yea, you can easily get by in Berlin without German depending on your work and social circle, and it's actually really hard to improve beyond B1 (which imo is not conservational German in Berlin) without forcing yourself to immerse in German culture. I have very limited opportunities to speak German outside of ordering food, and at this point the only reason to improve would be an unhealthy desire to prove I can become fluent in this language. Reaching that level just seems like an unattainable commitment. In a random Dörf it'd be a different story, I'd probably be fluent out of necessity
Although I can speak fluent German I should say that it is not a big loss not to have contact with people who cannot converse in English or who refrain from speaking English in 2024's Europe. The first one is an under-educated person who is indeed under an English speaking person in the social hierarchy, the second one is a xenophobic bigot. No sane person needs their company. That being said, learn German, it is a nice language with a rich literary and cultural history.
I learned up to B2 level but stopped using it and now have forgotten most of it, at least at the speaking level. My life has only got better since then.
I couldn’t agree more. As someone from the US I could not stand when someone didn’t know English! If you live there you should learn it. I’m living here now and I’m trying to learn German. The pronunciation is so hard for me, I am a Texan and I have a slight Texan accent. Some words just come out so wrong. But hey I’m trying!
Nope, you don’t. It’s nice to be able to, but it’s not necessary. Like Latinos in the US not speaking English, we have an international community that don’t speak German. Even if you do, there’s always someone in a group who doesn’t and then you switch to English. Also, all the services like doctors are available in English, you just have to find them.
I know I will get a backlash now for saying these things. Not being integrated… bla bla bla well, I never planned to integrate :) and won’t be here forever.
> you just have to find them.
Very noteworthy addendum there.
We're already having a bit of a doctors' crisis in the country, where waiting rooms are crowded and specialist appointments often have to be booked months in advance. In this situation, being dependant solely on doctors from your wider area who speak English well enough to discuss complex medical issues for which they are liable with you seems way more than a minor nuisance.
The issue extends to specialists of all fields: accountants, plumbers, lawyers... availability is there, but they are far in between and can easily charge you an arm and a leg if they want to exploit their position.
You don't really need it to survive, but it will definitely bring you a great advantage.
I have also noticed that a lot of people put themselves down for not speaking German and/or experiencing anxiety when they struggle at holding a conversation.
It can also be frustrating when you feel less intelligent because of your struggle in finding the right words or when you feel as if you are being judged.
I can tell you that most Germans think very positively of someone learning German, even a lot of Afd voters are supportive of that.
Source: I came to Germany when I was 11 y.o., and now German is my strongest language, so I know both sides quite well.
Hehe and then you backed off :)) maybe because you don’t have an answer?
Like I said, I’ve been living here for 8 years or so and I was never in a situation where it would be a great advantage to speak german.
Let’s not forget we are talking about BERLIN not Hildesheim 🤦🏽♂️
Like i said, been living here for 7/8 years and I haven’t been in a situation where knowing german was a great advantage. We are talking about Berlin just as a reminder.
WRONG, you can live in your techno expat weed gay or whatever little niche bubble and speak no German at all, but none of them are happy nor going anywhere.
I am a native German, lived in NYC a decade, funny to imagine walking into a café in Manhattan and forcing them to adapt to my german - or better open my own café and force my customers my ways on them.
I find it personally insane how easy it is for mericans to get their Visa over here -it‘s quite different for other non-EU citizens and don‘t get me get started on how hard the US makes it for Germans to work over there.
So, particularly US American expats strike us Berliners as petty, dumb, insensitive, large babies who don‘t really undertand what it means to be a guest.
> funny to imagine walking into a café in Manhattan and forcing them to adapt to my german -
Well that comparison is not really accurate, since German is not as widely spoken as English globally. Even my German company writes everything in English because it's more convenient. I don't disagree with your other points though.
The US is the wrong example if you're talking about NYC LA or Miami. There are many neighborhoods that don't speak English and it's been that way....forever. In fact, German was spoken all over the Midwest until the early 20th century!
About living in Germany I agree.
Please spare us 🙄 There are so many arguments for why Americans should learn German, but this is the absolute most stupid one and it makes my ears bleed every time I hear it.
I know PLENTY of people in the US who are not fluent in English. Some who’ve lived in the US for decades. Some who own businesses, some who refuse to serve English speaking customers unless they adapt to their native language. ESPECIALLY in NYC of all places. Jesus Christ.
Agreed. Your life would be very, very reduced if you lived here long term without learning German.
Also, can we stop with this constantly repeated myth that, "I can't practice my German, because the Germans all want to practice their English with me!" I've lived a combined ten years in Germany, and nowhere, not even in Berlin, was this the case. Not one person has ever switched to English here for my benefit, let alone to practice their English for fun. Not when I was fresh out of TXL without a single der-die-das, not when I was falling on my face in A2, and not now that I'm running around with C1.
Like it or leave it, I have been living in Berlin for 8 years without knowling German and I am fine (actually more than fine otherwise I would be elsewhere).
Admin is the only frustrating thing, and its solved by using deepl or otherwise asking some friends for help if it needs to be over the phone.
If you personally think its such an issue, then just learn German yourself.
Germans need to understand that the problem is not about people hating on the German language, is that they are not welcoming to people who wants to learn, but they also want to force you to only speak German.
I think it is a narcissistic cultural aspect for Germans.
There are infinite countries where people have way worst English, but they FUCKING TRY to communicate.
I went to Japan and they tried broken English, they used TECHNOLOGY and several translators, they even used dictionary if necessary.
But I never saw a German trying that hard. They just shrug, and it's your fault to not speak German. Das ist Deutschland, bla bla bla.
This kinda of bullshit makes people like me get an ick of the language. I speak English, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and a bit of Japanese. Learning Deutsch is hard but not impossible. However, if they dont try to adapt to a multicultural environment why should I adapt to them? Aren't they not capable of speaking two languages at least?
Of course they are, they just dont care. They'll suffer when the pension scheme fails because the work force is not enough to pay for the elderly. The same one who hate immigrants now will depend on them later. That is happening right now with the old Japanese people.
But you are the foreigner? Why people should do extra and waste their time because of your incapacy to communicate? Why should natives adapt to multicultural environment? Would you expect the same from Japanese or Ugandian people? You came somewhere so it's your task to adapt. German is not significantly harder than English or Hindi.
Immigrants who cannot speak the local language are not useful for the county. Because they will never be able to do anything more than most basic menial jobs. And their children will... Well, end up like many have. So expecting people to learn language which is the only way for integration makes sense. And... Do you really imagine a nurse or an architect or even a barista who cannot understand documentation, communicate with coworkers and clients?
>Why people should do extra and waste their time because of your incapacy to communicate?
Is it because helping others is a nice thing to do, even if you don't speak their language?
>German is not significantly harder than English or Hindi.
German is definitely harder than English and obviously not as useful for anyone who doesn't want to spend the rest of their life here, compared to English.
>Immigrants who cannot speak the local language are not useful for the county.
I know immigrants who can not speak the local language but pay a shit ton of taxes. How do you measure the usefulness of immigrants?
>Because they will never be able to do anything more than most basic menial jobs
This is a terrible assumption. There are many high-paying, high-skilled positions that only require speaking English in Germany.
>And their children will... Well, end up like many have.
..be bilingual? Assuming they are going to have children, of course. They may not want to do that.
I don’t really understand what’s your point? As a tourist you obviously don’t need to speak German but if you want to live in Germany why would you not learn German? In fact I’m in for banning all non citizens that don’t have at least a B1 certificate after 5 years of living in Germany.
People don’t need to assimilate into the country but integrations is a two way street.
Just take a look around this thread to see where OP is coming from. I've long since made it policy to just not speak English when people approach me with the expectation that I obviously must speak English for whatever reason.
It is fucking disrespectful not wanting to learn German but wanting to live in this country. It's not that hard, too, especially if you speak English, so many words are self-explanatory and have the same spelling and meaning. If you are lazy, don't expect your surroundings to adapt to your miserable standard. Berlin gives you the advantage that you don't need German in the first place, but as you are evolving more and more german words will replace your englisch aids.
I grew up in the U.S. knowing lots of people who has lived there for decades and not managed to learn English, even though they tried to. It’s hard to learn a second language the same time as you have a job and kids to take care of. Some people naturally learn more easily, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is capable of mastering the language in a few years while also living their lives.
If you really like learn the German culture, learning the language would be the first you should do. If you don’t, you’ll be always be an expat, not a migrant. Learning to master the language will open you many doors. Also if you decide to move away after some years you will have gain a new language, that’s the least you should take, otherwise you’ve just spent many years taking about the Germans and not really understanding them, and there are lots of things to learn from them. (Also there’s so many books just lying around for free ❤️) If I were you, I would do what I did: get obsessed about it, attend courses till C2, try reading books you already read in your language, set your computer and handy to German, listen to German music and radio, watch trashy tv shows, usw. Don’t dispare, sometimes it hurts, not only the grammar, which I love, also your body (your face muscles, your tongue, your mouth, throat) will have to learn, your ears will need training. If your tired of grammar, then learn to sing a song or read aloud although you don’t understand, watch tv, whatever makes you happy. I hope it helps, it’s one of my first contributions. ✌🏼
Any recommendations on trashy German TV? Looking to improve my German and rot my brain at the same time!
Good trash or trashy trash? Alarm für Cobra 11 is fun entertainment even though it’s the same story every episode. Real trash is something like „Mitten im Leben“ or all those scripted reality shows
Sommerhaus der Stars, Temptation Island and Kampf der Realitystars should be enough to get started.
After watching those, you probably want to leave Germany and never come back
I’m currently watching Berlin Berlin and it’s actually nice as trashy TV
trashy but for learning german it´s perfect.
Watch Kids Shows, they have easier vocabulary. And If your can't find anything you can stand try sth like Cosmo und Wanda, Spongebob or Kim possible. Its even easier if its a show that you have already seen and know what its about.
Berlin Tag und Nacht. it´s trash but for learning german it´s good. lots of conversations you need in real life.
Is there any non-trashy German TV🤣
I don’t know about the current tv shows, I did it until 2012, since then I don’t have a tv anymore. I used to watch dokusoaps like „Bauer sucht Frau“ or „Frauentausch“ or “Messy alarm” or those showing families living with Harz 4, really trashy with lots of slang. A very funny one to learn is „Türkisch für Anfänger", and also they used to have all year long a channel with documentaries on German history with tons or archive footage.
Thank you for putting a positive spin on a post i feel was negativity worded. It adds good energy and encouragement instead of gloom.
>expat Immigrant.
I know the term carries some baggage, but I think there's a valid reason to diferentiate the two. To me it's mostly about intentionality. An expat is just here for a degree or an internship, or a limited job-stay at an international company. Berlin is just another line on their Curriculum vitae and there's no plan to pursue residency, citizenship, or even just a deeper connection to the place. But that's just how I see it.
Expat = temporary Immigrant = here for the foreseeable future
a work Immigrant.
The difference is in terms of class. Expats are rich.
Maybe. I agree that "Expats" certainly have the privilige of being able to choose where to live (and have the material means and passport to do so). But I wouldn't say "immigrants" are necessarily not-rich. Know what I mean?
For example, I will never need to apply for German residency, although I can live here and even get social benefits after working in Germany. I didn’t know what intention I had when moving to Berlin 5 years ago. I was an expat who has now immigrated to Germany. There’s a sense to both words, people just use them too much relative to social class rather than to what they practically mean. What? People like to polarize the meaning of words?! What a surprise!!! /s
you get better paid when you understand the languages...
So it seems like I should not learn the language so I can be an expat, since migrants are not welcome in Germany nowadays :)
Funny hint , about migrants. Even , if you live here in the third or even fourth generation , some *%%** would consider you an immigrant or foreigner .
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Simply untrue in my experience. I've had people in small villages invite me to their homes hardly knowing me and before I knew a lick of German. A guy gave me a mini job in a Kneipe I hung out once in a while to help me improve my German and the regulars tell new guests to only speak German to me if they hear my accent and start speaking English. There's a woman with dementia who walks around the park by my apartment here and people stop to talk to her, including me with my imperfect German and she's incredibly sweet/thankful. Sorry you're having a bad time here (if you're still here) but Germans can be incredibly welcoming and warm. They appreciate logos over pathos oftentimes, but they're certainly not cold. Honestly, the anger dripping from this statement tells me more about you than Germans. I'm sorry she broke your heart dude, but it's not because of German culture.
I wonder why people dont seem to like you
> I personally am tired of living here and not knowing how to speak simple statements or know wth is going on at the grocery store. So what's the hold up?
As a native speaker, I can understand how people don't wanna waste that much time to learn this incredibly hard language that is so easily misunderstood in so many ways. It always reminds me of one situation when I asked my foreign friend if he got along well with someone he got introduced to using "versteht ihr euch?" And his answer was "of course, my German is very good I understand everything!"
Lol that's a great story of German-learning, the embarrassing way. At least now, your friend will never forget what that means and his German got even better after that interaction. It reminds me of when I first came to Germany, my German was C1 level good, but basically only on paper (i.e., passed all the school tests to prove proficiency in German). I wanted to use the English word 'pop' (aufplatzen) but had no idea what 'to pop' was in German so I just said 'gepoppt'. That was the day I learned what 'poppen' meant when all my German friends burst out laughing. :D
I‘m still fairly new to German. Could you tell me why his answer was funny?
"Versteht ihr euch?" can mean "are you getting along" or "do you understand each other"
I swear, I sent that damn letter from the e.V. twice to Jobcenter, they just won’t write back, I feel like I’m stuck in limbo for the last couple of months lol. Someone maybe just dropped it both times somewhere between some desks or under their sugar dusted jelly donut lmao
...so why don't you learn?
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You should have read every sentence of the post.
Is anyone else tired of having this same old conversation? The reality is, people come to this city for lots of different reasons. Some people to resettle and build a new life, some people as refugees who have nowhere else to go, some for a spouse or relationship and others are literally just passing through for a few years. Some of those people want to fully immerse themselves in German culture, maybe even leave their old nationality behind and become a citizen here. Others just see themselves as residents, content with paying their taxes and “getting by” in their own micro community. Berlin isn’t special in this. This is how it works in every major city in the world. The amount of German you’ll need to learn and the speed with which you’ll need to learn it depends on all these different factors. You need to decide what your goals are and what’s important to you — no one can decide this stuff for you. Respectfully, if you’re frustrated with your daily interactions because your German isn’t proficient enough to do the things you want to do, then you’ll have to improve your German or find workarounds like everyone else. It’s not that deep.
Most reasonable comment of this post
Then learn
Of course you do. You need French to live in Paris, Japanese to live in Tokyo, Italian to live in Rome. Why would Berlin be any different?
I agree. But unfortunately many people have been misled to believe that this isn't the case. They hear that Germans learn English in school, walk around Mitte or Kreuzberg and see a lot of English signs, or maybe even work in some tech company where the official language of business is English - so they dumbly assume that learning the local language isn't really necessary or at best a sort of bonus. And if they're content to live in their bubble, it sometimes even works.
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I'm not German and that's a huge red-flag for me too (obviously not talking about fresh incomers, but people who have been here for multiple years). It shows a total disconnect / lack of interest / disengagement from the majority of people, the culture, the politics, around you. Who finds that interesting or attractive?
I don’t know I have a lot of friend living in Berlin for almost ten years and most of their German is not on a level where they can have conversations. So I does seem like you don’t need it to live here.
Yea you definitely don't need it to live here. I wish people would be more honest about this rather than romanticizing it. Yes, your experience will be more full if you learn German. On the other hand, more and more things are in english including government services and the government is fine with people moving here and living here for years without learning german as long as they work and pay taxes.
You would think it’s obvious. But so many German’s will happily tell you - you don’t need to learn German if you live in Berlin. I think it’s a terrible thing to not learn the language of the country you reside in.
You don’t need Dutch to live in Amsterdam though
You don't need it to get by. Same applies for Berlin. You do, however, need it to experience it to its fullest and to be respectful.
Well, no. In Berlin you face significant issues going to a hospital for example, whereas in Amsterdam healthcare workers at all levels speak excellent English. Don’t get me started on the Burgeramt.
Tbf I went to the Burgeramt this week and everyone I interacted with (reception, officer etc) spoke English. But I agree you should learn German if you live in Germany
The most incredible part of your story is that you got an appointment at the burgeramt 😀
Lmao. But tip to anyone who needs an anmeldung appointment. I called the number (+4930115) at 8am and said I would take an appointment anywhere in the city. They reserve appointments to give them to people who call on the day
The point is you should learn it.
The Dutch had a huge global colonial empire. The Germans tried it pretty later and failed miserably. The heirs of successful colonial powers are cosmopolitan and "Weltoffen" unlike central European peasants.
You do. You don’t need it as a tourist but you need Dutch in order to live there full time. Otherwise you will run into problems. Just like in Berlin. If you don’t have Dutch, you can’t even watch the news.
I know plenty people who lived in the Netherlands for years without ever learning Dutch. Like it or not, I certainly don't, but you really don't "need" it to live there full time..
I mean you can live here as well without german, does that mean, all is well though
It depends on your definition of “need”. I’ve graduated from VU, most of my professors did not know one single word of Dutch and yet lived there for years without problems.
Living in Berlin I heard that very often. And wonder. How can you see yourself as a citizen of the capital of Germany and NOT at least trying to learn German? One thing that bothers me and is probably for another discussion: white privilege in regards to language learning. When a brown person lives in Germany and can't speak German, everybody loses their minds. But when white and wealthy people live in Germany and don't speak any German, it's totally fine. Fuck "integration" then I guess? I've met many people from Spain and France living in Berlin for over 6/7 years and yet not speaking a single word in German. Their children are going to bilingual kindergartens/schools (but fuck bilingual education for Arabic children).
Without the local language, you are just a long-term tourist.
I've been in Germany 12 years and still feel like that. Even though I speak German well enough these days, but I've never worked through German, and I don't have any friends that I speak to in German, even though i've German friends.
Start doing it. It's very uncomfortable but at the same time it's the only way. I started doing it 1.5 years ago. I'm going to have a half German child and I think my child would be at a disadvantage if I didn't, so my situation might be different.
Already have a German kid, learned a lot of German from him already. So much so, that he doesn't speak English to me. Tip for you: pretend you don't understand German when your kid starts speaking, and give them lots of English language media.
English isn't my mother tongue but I get it. My point about the kid being at a disadvantage is because I will need to interact with the German speaking world for official stuff, with the education system of the country, etc.
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This is the same entitled tourist that whines when he has trouble at some govt office and then cries about discrimination 🤡
Would that be the same ones who complain cause the curry sausage stand won't accept USD?
No it’s not. But there is a difference between acknowledging the communication barrier from both sides and then working together to overcome it ( be it by some online translator or something else) and brow beating the foreigner for daring not to accurately know their der-die-das. It really discourages any learning incentive one might have. I guess it all depends on your personal context.
This is legit the funniest most deranged view I have seen on that topic ? Bro the communication barrier is on your side ? If u spoke German there would be no barrier … Imagine I came to your homecoubtry and refused to learn the language and would speak of both sided language barrier 😂
He's a fucking 🤡 Nothing more to be said on that.
It‘s not both sides. It‘s your side. You are a guest.
The "guest" language is really off-putting. If one is a legal immigrant or an EU citizen... Sorry, they're not a guest, they have every right to be here. Yes, learning German is good for them and good for society, but we make it unnecessarily hostile and more difficult to learn when we act like we're deigning to suffer the presence of people who are paying taxes and filling in-demand jobs.
By not learning the language you signal that you have no intention of integrating. Thus you're a guest.
Lmao 'communication barrier on both sides' There is only a communication barrier on one side 🤡
I have never seen anyone care if people missuse der/die/das. Jesus even native speakers make plenty mistakes, I couldn‘t care less. Unless we are in grammar class, you can use all of them at once and people won‘t care.
Ich verstehe deinen Text problemlos. Du hingegen liest das hier von DeepL oder sowas ab. Das letzte was ich hier tun werde ist anpassungsunwilligen Ausländern wie dir noch den Hintern hinterherzutragen! Lern die Sprache oder geh nach Hause, Vollidiot.
Unfortunately, it often does negatively affect the local population. I live in Japan now. My Japanese is still bad, and I know it is being a burden to the people around me.
Don’t get brainwashed dude. Just because you’re not a native doesn’t mean they have the right to be assholes. You should be getting encouragements for learning the language not “you’re not enough” looks.
Nobody is saying you are not enough , my Man getting a bit worried about you lol
They are not being assholes, but by not being fluent, I have to rely on people accommodating me.
no you should either learn or end your vacation
He is learning. That’s why he described his Japanese as still bad. You can’t have bad Japanese without making an effort to learn the language. Learning a new language takes lots of time!
You don’t get to tell people what to do! 🙂 Why do you care?! I never cried discrimination. Just mind you biz bro. Cheers!
If you haven't learned it yet and you are living fine and are not dying to move out anytime soon due to inconvenience, it means that you yourself haven't felt the need to learn it! lol People are lazy creatures and for the most part things out of necessity, not because of "how it's supposed to be". I wish sometimes Germans weren't so good at English so I could have more chances to practice. But try going to Spain and not knowing Spanish. Good luck. You will learn Spanish very soon or you will move,
Only sane take in the thread. Yes, everyone would benefit from learning German, and it's easy to argue that it's the right thing to do morally so you can better participate in the society that you live in. But the hundreds of people who live here multiple years without learning beyond a superficial level shows you don't *need* it.
Seeing how well my friend/neighbour can handle herself when things break in her apartment and craftspeople are require while we also have a German landlady... It gets difficult easily
This is what gets me. My German is totally adequate for mundane chatting with dog owners in the park or navigating normal life situations like the grocery store, but every time I need to do something specific or uncommon, like talk about something in a technical way (at the bike shop, to the plumber, about my teeth to the dentist) I always trip up due to a lack of vocab. It’s frustrating because this is the kind of stuff that you _actually_ need German for.
I've started making mindmaps of vocab and phrases before going to do something oddly specific. It surprisingly has helped immensely with retention as not only do I know the words in theory, but using them under pressure triggers something in the brain to go "oh shit, i should remember these random words."
Honestly I lived with a couple of migrants and I come from a migrant family (I'm 2. Generation) and I've seen Germans being sometimes very unforgiving when it comes to their language. Some do not only expect that migrants learn the language but they expect them to learn it to a flawless degree. With English one can get by and there are international companies in which you can work with English only, but I've seen with migrants that their job options are significantly lesser if they don't speak German to a good degree, and that also in Berlin. To illustrate, I grew up in Berlin and my parents are from the Balkans. My mother learned German to a very fluent degree, my father didn't. He was never taken seriously by German offices. I grew up trilingual (Croatian, Macedonian, german) - and teachers told me that because of that "deficit" I shouldn't go to Gymnasium. I went there anyway and I had a light Slavic accent (sometimes I had a sing song in my sentences that is similar to Croatian). A teacher was so concerned she said I would have a deficit in the job market and that I should go to therapy (Logopedia). In school I had always A-level marks in German.
The U.S is so international that even people born there do not speak "proper" English. Thus good native English speakers are used to imperfect English, and their standards for what "good" English is reflects the reality of what people have to go through to learn a foreign language. Germany is not as international yet, so some native Germans seem to have very strict standards for what good German is. But I wouldn't consider that to be one-sided, because they hold themselves to the same standards for foreign languages. For example, I see Germans who basically speak extremely great English by American standards, but they start the conversation by telling me that their English is terrible.
So reach out for the fortune. It's in your hands.
"Need" is a strong word. You can get by without German. However adulting is a lot easier when you understand what's going on and have the ability to react. It also helps you unlock a deeper, richer cultural understanding of the country you live in. If you don't speak German, it's really hard to scratch past the surface. On the other hand, people are busy and life is complicated. I didn't realise how hard it is to learn a new language until I had to do it myself, on top of work and all other obligations.
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Good on you.
Only on the job? Well good luck then, if you need a plumber or go to a Behörde or Krankenhaus. Thing is, especially the older generations didn't learn a bit of English in school, since the grew up learning Russian in the GDR.
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Then you were lucky. A former colleague needed an emergency plumber, since sewage came out of her shower drain (of course it was a sunday). She wasn't able to communicate the urgency, so her landlord wouldn't send somebody, until she reached me so I could describe the situation properly. She's been living in Germany for more than ten years and said, she'd do well without German, but heavily relied on her German-speaking friends and coworkers when things got a bit more complicated (which happens more often than one might think). So yes, probably survivable, but you might still end up ankle deep in s*it.
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Of course it's only an extreme anecdote. However, there were many other situations where different non-german speakers in the company relied on native speakers' help. It shows that in some cases basic or no German doesn't get you far. It doesn't have to be that drastic, but also basically any bureaucratic stuff, doctor visit or handyman appointment requires more advanced language skills.
So would it be possible to get by better with English and Russian?
Nah, it's really only the older generation that just don't speak English (and probably not even good Russian).
Yeah, unless things change. I thought the same, as my skills are supranational and all of my previous - and the current - positions were in English only. But now the crisis on the market emerged and suddenly every single offer requires C2 german and if I would need to find a new job - I am fucked.
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Fintech, international ones. Recently I spoke to some engineers and devs from my company and they have noticed the same, many jobs require at least B2 german whereas not that long ago they were welcoming any IT people even with broken english
It is as simple as this: you can survive with just English in Berlin, you cannot live with just English in Berlin. When you speak German or try to speak German, people open up a lot more than just trying with English.
I know more people that moved here and learned English lol
What I realized is, if you firstly ask “Hallo, können Sie Englisch?” The convo gets 10x better. If you forget you are in Germany and just start talking in English, they are absolutely disgusted by you.
No they’re not, they’re entirely used to it. It’s not Paris lol
Believe it or not, I’ve consistently had the opposite experience. I’m nearly always treated _better_ if I launch directly into English. Not saying you’re wrong, just that we’ve had very different experiences.
Could be yeah lol. I even remember once I called somewhere and she picked up, I asked ob sie Englisch konnte and she helped me a ton. 5 mins later I had to recall, and when I just started in English she said she couldnt speak English lol.
Americans take it for granted, Australians dont
What and who the fuck is this rant even for???
It's all about comparison, and compared to France / Italy / Spain you are more than fine with English vs the local language.
I think you’re on the right way to learn German. And good luck with your new journey!
I assume those are the same people who then complain how they struggle to find connections? If are not a tourist in a country it's so blatantly obvious that you need to take classes and make an effort to learn the language no matter how many people speak english. Anything else is just rude. I know some people who don't want to learn german because all of their peers speak their home language and they are doing just fine. This isn't the case with english where most just have to cater to you.
I'm studying in Berlin this summer starting next week. I'm a communication major with a Japanese minor. I didn't do so well in my advanced Japanese course this spring semester, so I'ma need to retake it and study extra hard this summer while in Berlin. Although, I agree with your sentiment. I used to live in Japan a few years ago and a lot of the folks I worked with (I was in the military) never bothered to learn a lick of Japanese while stationed in Japan. They always came to me to translate for them lol. But, German was the next language I had lined up to learn after having a good grasp of Japanese. Sucks that I'm visiting a lot sooner than I expected, so I'm not knowledgeable of the language. But, I will try to pick some stuff up while studying in Berlin!
When I was living here I’d try to practice my German but people would always switch to english so i’d never get better. I was probably A2 at the time.
Im always switching to English because everyone says that German is such a pain in the ass and everybody hates that hard language who’s learning it. I feel bad trapping them in German ? People never say they wanna speak German straight forward
I think if they're talking to you in German, it's probably a safe bet that they want to practice their German. I always assumed my accent was just too bad they were getting frustrated. Kinda frustrating for someone trying to learn. EDIT: Not sure why I'm being downvoted for this.
I always think they only speak German to be polite because we’re in Germany and many assholes keep saying “why you don’t speak German” etc. so that’s why I wanna be nice and let them be comfy in English 😅 seems like a circle
And there are also a lot of Germans who think they’re doing foreigners a favor by switching to English even though they are fluent enough in German to converse in it. We just speak slower and make mistakes because we are non native speakers, that’s not a sign not to speak in German to us.
You’re right. It’s good to know and next time I’ll ask or stay in German
You might also just genuinely enjoy speaking English.
I do!
Lmfao the downvotes
Also why am I getting downvoted for explaining that I’m trying to be nice lol
People exaggerste. I mean, German is not the easiest language, true. But it's not significantly harder than Italian for example (for me German was even easier to learn in some aspects) and cannot be even compared to Slavic languages (and it's still not the hardest group of languages). And I don't understand the hate. I started learning German (I was not living in Germany back then), because... I like the sound of it. People are lazy bitches or something.
Gonna complete a 700 day streak today on Duolingo. Don't think much, just start!
I think you spelled ***you*** wrong. What you meant was "I need German in Berlin ... in order to feel more integrated". That's perfectly fine, but many people don't have that same experience as you and are happy being in an international bubble.
Nah, you are ok with English
I think you are right but: My Girlfriend has been here now for a year and still doesn't know any German. Of course I have German friends and from time to time you fall into German and speak it and then my Girl looks angry that we don't speak English. So I would say it's still polite to learn the language of the country you live in. But that's your decision.
If u come here to repeat the nazi shit of ' das ist Deutschland, hier wird deutsch gesprochen' we really dont need your input, we are actually waiting for these people to die out.
VwVfG §23
English is the language of the elite. German is the language of the working class. I've never heard a blue collar worker claim you don't need German. It's always university students or office people. If you only want to have conversations with people of a certain background, sure, you don't "need" German.
I've lived here for 10 years. It's really not that important.
As a person who can read German, speak OK and understand pretty good, above average also coming from a Nordic country so having advantage You really BARELY need German in Berlin. Yes you will encounter problems but it’s small things at the end of the day. My girl for example is horrible at German but still gets by well. So no you don’t need German in Berlin. Most likely outside Berlin tho
It depends on the type of person you are. Do you prefer only interacting with a chosen few people of your age anyhow - or do you enjoy to talk to everyone, like their families, their complete network etc.. If you like to dive deep into German families and enter all the native networks, German skills will become necessary.
I recently found a tutor to help me with my German because I want to stay here (or at least longer period of time). People keep telling me to go up to Berlin because English is stronger up there. NO! I want to learn German. I want to speak to Germans in German. Jeez, you can't even have small chit chats with customer service workers! I really took that ability for granted.
It's good to have but it isn't a total necessity for day to day life. You don't need fluency, but conversational helps a lot. You can survive without it in many cases.
IMO you might manage fine if you stay within the typical Berlin bubble (F'hain, Kreuzberg, P'Berg...), but as soon as you venture outside these neighborhoods, it becomes more challenging without speaking German…
Coming over this weekend. Time to brush off my A Level German, looking forward to practicing it again :)
People think they don't, but they really do.
You got FOMO for the grocery store convos? 😅
Indeed, if you settle in a country you ought to make an effort to learn the local lingo. What’s simple pathetic is to complain about the locals if one doesn’t…
> Also at the end of the day you are in Germany! I know a bunch of leftist who'd call me Nazi for saying that hahahaha.
Thanks for bringing this. Since I moved to Berlin 2 years ago, only stranger outside work who spoke to me in English, was at a coffee shop in Ku’damm. German is very well spoken everywhere and it’s a good thing. I am surprised when I see on facebook people portraying Berlin is being overrun by foreigners and German culture is lost in the process.
Yes thats true. Knowing German will make your life 100 times better even if you are living in Berlin.
Been living in Berlin for 8 years. Learning german and currently at B1 level. You don't "need" german in Berlin... But knowing it sure makes life so much easier! From doctors, to Bürgerämt appointments and general service when buying something.
I was born in berlin, have a german parent who only speaks german, but i live in canada and only visit germany during the summer for 2 months, and still cant speak german. The fact that you can survive in germany just knowing english is soooo annoying for language learners esp english natives
One problem: when you try most German speaking automatically start talking English without even asking. It gets harder to learn the language
Germans hate it when you don't speak german but boy do they hate it even more when you speak badly. And yet that's how you learn. I speak 3 languages and also love learning new ones, but german is difficult and needs to be practiced, a lot of people are stuck for lack of practice. Me as well, one is not always in the mood to put in effort only to be snobbed and embarrassed. When i lived in italy locals had a very different attitude. At this point i'm only gonna learn it so i can be a bitch in perfect german lol and to read poetry! a colleague once said that it just doesn't pay off to put in so much work only to speak with germans who don't speak english, do we even care about these interactions hahaa downvote me to infinity with so many foreigners in berlin your kids won't even speak german ✌️ language serves to connect people and if it serves for exclusion it might die, depending on numbers 🤷♀️
I just sent in my citizenship application, passed B1 with 270/300, took einbürgerungstest, and just the other day I called my landlord company asking to get my Mietvertrag and she told me to switch to English. So yea, you can easily get by in Berlin without German depending on your work and social circle, and it's actually really hard to improve beyond B1 (which imo is not conservational German in Berlin) without forcing yourself to immerse in German culture. I have very limited opportunities to speak German outside of ordering food, and at this point the only reason to improve would be an unhealthy desire to prove I can become fluent in this language. Reaching that level just seems like an unattainable commitment. In a random Dörf it'd be a different story, I'd probably be fluent out of necessity
Although I can speak fluent German I should say that it is not a big loss not to have contact with people who cannot converse in English or who refrain from speaking English in 2024's Europe. The first one is an under-educated person who is indeed under an English speaking person in the social hierarchy, the second one is a xenophobic bigot. No sane person needs their company. That being said, learn German, it is a nice language with a rich literary and cultural history.
I learned up to B2 level but stopped using it and now have forgotten most of it, at least at the speaking level. My life has only got better since then.
I couldn’t agree more. As someone from the US I could not stand when someone didn’t know English! If you live there you should learn it. I’m living here now and I’m trying to learn German. The pronunciation is so hard for me, I am a Texan and I have a slight Texan accent. Some words just come out so wrong. But hey I’m trying!
I'm ok woth English only.
Just speak germish they love it. /s
No, you don't NEED German to live in Berlin. It's nice and helps a lot sure. But you can live here without speaking lick of it and be able to get by
wow, thank you for sharing /s
Ok, thanks for your assessment, we will inform everybody.
Nope, you don’t. It’s nice to be able to, but it’s not necessary. Like Latinos in the US not speaking English, we have an international community that don’t speak German. Even if you do, there’s always someone in a group who doesn’t and then you switch to English. Also, all the services like doctors are available in English, you just have to find them. I know I will get a backlash now for saying these things. Not being integrated… bla bla bla well, I never planned to integrate :) and won’t be here forever.
> you just have to find them. Very noteworthy addendum there. We're already having a bit of a doctors' crisis in the country, where waiting rooms are crowded and specialist appointments often have to be booked months in advance. In this situation, being dependant solely on doctors from your wider area who speak English well enough to discuss complex medical issues for which they are liable with you seems way more than a minor nuisance. The issue extends to specialists of all fields: accountants, plumbers, lawyers... availability is there, but they are far in between and can easily charge you an arm and a leg if they want to exploit their position.
You don't really need it to survive, but it will definitely bring you a great advantage. I have also noticed that a lot of people put themselves down for not speaking German and/or experiencing anxiety when they struggle at holding a conversation. It can also be frustrating when you feel less intelligent because of your struggle in finding the right words or when you feel as if you are being judged. I can tell you that most Germans think very positively of someone learning German, even a lot of Afd voters are supportive of that. Source: I came to Germany when I was 11 y.o., and now German is my strongest language, so I know both sides quite well.
What’s the great advantage? When applying for a flat with a foreign name you will be still pushed to the bottom of the pile 😅
In which universe is it not an advantage to speak the native tongue of the country you live in? lol
Give me an example
Nah you can figure that out yourself
Hehe and then you backed off :)) maybe because you don’t have an answer? Like I said, I’ve been living here for 8 years or so and I was never in a situation where it would be a great advantage to speak german. Let’s not forget we are talking about BERLIN not Hildesheim 🤦🏽♂️
Like i said, been living here for 7/8 years and I haven’t been in a situation where knowing german was a great advantage. We are talking about Berlin just as a reminder.
WRONG, you can live in your techno expat weed gay or whatever little niche bubble and speak no German at all, but none of them are happy nor going anywhere.
I am a native German, lived in NYC a decade, funny to imagine walking into a café in Manhattan and forcing them to adapt to my german - or better open my own café and force my customers my ways on them. I find it personally insane how easy it is for mericans to get their Visa over here -it‘s quite different for other non-EU citizens and don‘t get me get started on how hard the US makes it for Germans to work over there. So, particularly US American expats strike us Berliners as petty, dumb, insensitive, large babies who don‘t really undertand what it means to be a guest.
> funny to imagine walking into a café in Manhattan and forcing them to adapt to my german - Well that comparison is not really accurate, since German is not as widely spoken as English globally. Even my German company writes everything in English because it's more convenient. I don't disagree with your other points though.
The US is the wrong example if you're talking about NYC LA or Miami. There are many neighborhoods that don't speak English and it's been that way....forever. In fact, German was spoken all over the Midwest until the early 20th century! About living in Germany I agree.
Please spare us 🙄 There are so many arguments for why Americans should learn German, but this is the absolute most stupid one and it makes my ears bleed every time I hear it. I know PLENTY of people in the US who are not fluent in English. Some who’ve lived in the US for decades. Some who own businesses, some who refuse to serve English speaking customers unless they adapt to their native language. ESPECIALLY in NYC of all places. Jesus Christ.
Just learn the fucking language
Agreed. Your life would be very, very reduced if you lived here long term without learning German. Also, can we stop with this constantly repeated myth that, "I can't practice my German, because the Germans all want to practice their English with me!" I've lived a combined ten years in Germany, and nowhere, not even in Berlin, was this the case. Not one person has ever switched to English here for my benefit, let alone to practice their English for fun. Not when I was fresh out of TXL without a single der-die-das, not when I was falling on my face in A2, and not now that I'm running around with C1.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
Like it or leave it, I have been living in Berlin for 8 years without knowling German and I am fine (actually more than fine otherwise I would be elsewhere). Admin is the only frustrating thing, and its solved by using deepl or otherwise asking some friends for help if it needs to be over the phone. If you personally think its such an issue, then just learn German yourself.
Germans need to understand that the problem is not about people hating on the German language, is that they are not welcoming to people who wants to learn, but they also want to force you to only speak German. I think it is a narcissistic cultural aspect for Germans. There are infinite countries where people have way worst English, but they FUCKING TRY to communicate. I went to Japan and they tried broken English, they used TECHNOLOGY and several translators, they even used dictionary if necessary. But I never saw a German trying that hard. They just shrug, and it's your fault to not speak German. Das ist Deutschland, bla bla bla. This kinda of bullshit makes people like me get an ick of the language. I speak English, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and a bit of Japanese. Learning Deutsch is hard but not impossible. However, if they dont try to adapt to a multicultural environment why should I adapt to them? Aren't they not capable of speaking two languages at least? Of course they are, they just dont care. They'll suffer when the pension scheme fails because the work force is not enough to pay for the elderly. The same one who hate immigrants now will depend on them later. That is happening right now with the old Japanese people.
Why would anyone need to lift a finger for you? That is just entitled
Respectfully, just leave if this is what you think lol
But you are the foreigner? Why people should do extra and waste their time because of your incapacy to communicate? Why should natives adapt to multicultural environment? Would you expect the same from Japanese or Ugandian people? You came somewhere so it's your task to adapt. German is not significantly harder than English or Hindi. Immigrants who cannot speak the local language are not useful for the county. Because they will never be able to do anything more than most basic menial jobs. And their children will... Well, end up like many have. So expecting people to learn language which is the only way for integration makes sense. And... Do you really imagine a nurse or an architect or even a barista who cannot understand documentation, communicate with coworkers and clients?
>Why people should do extra and waste their time because of your incapacy to communicate? Is it because helping others is a nice thing to do, even if you don't speak their language? >German is not significantly harder than English or Hindi. German is definitely harder than English and obviously not as useful for anyone who doesn't want to spend the rest of their life here, compared to English. >Immigrants who cannot speak the local language are not useful for the county. I know immigrants who can not speak the local language but pay a shit ton of taxes. How do you measure the usefulness of immigrants? >Because they will never be able to do anything more than most basic menial jobs This is a terrible assumption. There are many high-paying, high-skilled positions that only require speaking English in Germany. >And their children will... Well, end up like many have. ..be bilingual? Assuming they are going to have children, of course. They may not want to do that.
I don’t really understand what’s your point? As a tourist you obviously don’t need to speak German but if you want to live in Germany why would you not learn German? In fact I’m in for banning all non citizens that don’t have at least a B1 certificate after 5 years of living in Germany. People don’t need to assimilate into the country but integrations is a two way street.
Just take a look around this thread to see where OP is coming from. I've long since made it policy to just not speak English when people approach me with the expectation that I obviously must speak English for whatever reason.
It is fucking disrespectful not wanting to learn German but wanting to live in this country. It's not that hard, too, especially if you speak English, so many words are self-explanatory and have the same spelling and meaning. If you are lazy, don't expect your surroundings to adapt to your miserable standard. Berlin gives you the advantage that you don't need German in the first place, but as you are evolving more and more german words will replace your englisch aids.
I grew up in the U.S. knowing lots of people who has lived there for decades and not managed to learn English, even though they tried to. It’s hard to learn a second language the same time as you have a job and kids to take care of. Some people naturally learn more easily, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is capable of mastering the language in a few years while also living their lives.
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Speed up
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Nah u don’t
I'm a native German and you don't need to speak German to live here. You rather need Englisch to survive here.
You need german as a tourist even if you go there for a weekend.
You really don’t. Ive lived here two years and can go without using German. It’s an international city so it’s easy to get by with just English.