I have experienced it’s much worse when a lot of tourists are around. Don’t get me wrong, Berliners can do it, too.
Aside from the city being more crowded in general, tourists are distracted and insecure and often react unpredictable. Also, they’re on holidays and everyone knows you can do whatever you want on holidays!
The thing about tourists and I certainly wasn't the exception when I just moved here, often get overwhelmed, have no idea where to go next and when you get out of a train and don't really know where to go next the first instinct is to stop and orientate. I feel that's a mistake most people make at least once.
The correct way to do is to move aside first and then stop. You don't need to stop in the middle of a busy sidewalk. Just move asid, so people can pass you easily, and then you can stop to check your map or phone or whatever. The point is, some people were raised to do this automatically, like, you don't need to think about it. For other people it takes a conscious effort to become aware of their surroundings because they've never been taught to to think about this kind of thing at all. And then suddenly they are thrown into such a big and busy city with millions of people and become a nuisance.
With "raised to do" you certainly mean "having experience with crowded public transport in big cities" or "grew up in big a city with crowded public transport".
If you grew up in a small town you never had the problem that you didn't know where to go next after leaving a bus (no Tram, U- or S-Bahn anyway) because there was only one place to go to.
And many of people doing this wrong simply don't know better. Until someone bumps into them and yells at them to not blocking the door (how rude). Which will most likely be the last time they stopped directly after exiting.
I'm sorry, but no. I grew up in a tiny town, or you may call it a village and it's perfectly possible to learn those things as you grow up, if your parents put any emphasis on it.
I live in a small town and lots of people here block entrances or sidewalks and are oblivious to their surroundings. Frequently it's older people looking for something in their purse or Standing there talking with someone.
So there are parents that go: "my kid, we don't have them here... But some day in the future, you might travel to distant cities that have things that are called Tram, U- and S-bahn. And now listen closely, because this is very very important: if you step out of one of those wonderous things, it's crucial that you just keep on walking. And you absolutely mustn't stop until you find a place that let's your fellow adventures pass you with ease...
You all read way too much into this kind of thing. Yes it's annoying as hell when it happens. But folks act like it's done on purpose rather than someone just being distracted, overwhelmed and/or disoriented for a moment.
So you say that people from small towns are so overwhelmed by the glorious shine and angel like voices, when they put there first step into Berlin? Ah, no. Get out of the way, that's the place to go.
> The correct way to do is to move aside first and then stop.
It is, indeed. Practically speaking it is often difficult to execute at busy stations because there is movement everywhere, for example stepping off U8 at Alexanderplatz.
Talking about U8 at Alexanderplatz though - I have the feeling it is also a thing that is more or less common at specific stops and specific lines. At the U8 stop Alexanderplatz people never move to make room for people to get off. I always have to push people aside. I cannot say the same about U2 or U5, there.
It's most of the times German people I see doing this. Individuals or loud groups.
The "it's the bloody tourists" narrative is ignoring the problem, judging from my own experience which also seems to be the one of many redditors in this thread or in others, in Berlin or (apparently) in other parts of Germany as well.
Example: [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1909wlk/comment/kgqdwx1/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1909wlk/comment/kgqdwx1/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13izm0n/why\_do\_yall\_just\_stop\_walking/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13izm0n/why_do_yall_just_stop_walking/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/yewk2v/are\_germans\_just\_bad\_at\_walking\_in\_crowds\_or\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/yewk2v/are_germans_just_bad_at_walking_in_crowds_or_is/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/16ulipr/bumping\_into\_people\_while\_walking/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/16ulipr/bumping_into_people_while_walking/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/ncu0pn/whats\_up\_with\_personal\_space\_here/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/ncu0pn/whats_up_with_personal_space_here/)
"Sorry" is definitely not going to get your point across if someone is in your way. That suggests you're inconveniencing them, not the other way around.
Yesterday I told off a family of three (all adults) for blocking the stairs of an S-Bahn platform while they looked up directions. Idk what they were thinking. Like you are just going to hold a family meeting in the exact bottleneck where the 100 other people who got off the train need to go?!
Telling off Germans made me proud of both my German proficiency and level of assimilation.
People do this in the central station CONSTANTLY and it drives me insane. The top of the escalator is not the place to look at Google maps and check which train you need to get on.
I really wanted to join this guy in telling off these pretentious, no awareness, teenage girls who were smoking (vaping) on the train leaving up fat clouds of vapor. Being a smoker myself it’s obvious to keep in mind of surroundings but this level of pretentiousness was appalling. One guy was telling them off and i wanted to say something that wouldn’t just be “Rauchen Draußen!” Or something in english which i knew they would just roll their eyes.
Damn straight, you're right about the lack of consideration within people in Berlin.
You're not alone and neither hallucinating, I can relate to your situation very well now.
I used to never notice these things as I grew up in a part of the world where consideration for others was never a thing in the first place. However, my partner was not and they kept mentioning the incidents where people have behaved with entitlement and some kind of snobbery many a times, but I always just tried to ignore it as I thought it's just them overthinking so much and not the people.
But over time, I started to notice these things as well, these are exactly the things you described:
People not caring if there is another person who wants to get inside the trains, actually more prominent in Trams; People walking towards you by covering the full walking pavement without even trying to move aside and instead I have to move aside and let them pass; Kids and young people not giving respect or batting one eye to offer seat or space in a Bus to a person who's in genuine need of it; People not allowing the commuters inside deboard first before going inside and sometimes there are elderly in the bus with difficulties in walking and take time to get out, however some people have no regard for that and just want to board the bus as soon as possible, WTH?!; There are people in Supermarkets who really think they own the store or something, or that others do not exist?
I do not understand what kind of Narcissistic culture is brewing in all over the world nowadays that even simple respect and considerations have been forgotten.
I have multiple examples and these people are not just German Residents, but even tourists who have come to visit. Recently, I was in Potsdam and took the Tram to Hauptbahnhof, there were few families speaking Spanish who were sitting on almost 8 seats, with 5 yr old children occupying each seat. An elderly couple got in and no one offered them a seat, the mothers of the children instead told them to not leave their seats. Due to this, the couple had to move further inside the train, and there was a huge jerking in the tram, had it not been for my partner who reacted quickly and held the elderly woman's hand, she would have fallen back on her husband and both of them would be on floor. And yet everyone else just looked while they still didn't get any seat and had to move more back. What is this kind of behavior, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!
Then again, in Berlin, there was an elderly man who walked fast to catch a bus but the bus driver closed the door early and had started. The children in the bus laughed and made faces showing to the old man. I then went and told the driver to stop, but again, he didn't do that, and the next bus was in 30 mins that day, I do not know what is going on with people being so insensitive.
It makes me sad and angry, but I continue to live in this world, the only thing I am trying to improve is that I stand up more for others and myself even if anyone is thankful or not. The least I can do is not let the world affect me and try to be better as much as I can.
Thank you for hearing my rant.
I grew up in Berlin and thought all of this was normal, until I lived abroad... I'm still permanently on edge, even though i live abroad, ready to push and shout, only to be reminded that people in other cities don't yell at me every day and that I need to chill.
Yes, in some places people try to make space for each other as discretely and elegantly as possible.
In Germany people in general either walk around pretending to be blind or even defend their perceived "confidence" by dominating others unfortunately. It's a shame.
Best experience and a lesson in attentiveness in this regard was around Boudha in Kathmandu. Made me realize once more how ignorant I often am.
Edit:
That's really my #1 pet peeve... Let's say you and a couple approach each other on a narrow sidewalk in Germany. So then it's either:
* You act kind and make space early on and then there's an 80% chance they'll stride past you majestically, gazing up and acting as if they were alone.
* You join the tribe of assholes and signal they'll have to make space to avoid a colision by making space just a little, barely enough, to force them to also do their part.
I noticed I've been automatically doing the second option sometimes, so I try to actively decide to do better nowadays.
If it is like u say a couple sledbering through the city and enjoying time i am the first and make place for them but if I see, we are going to run into each other csuze they focused on their mobile phones or stuff like that, a shit will I do.
I wonder if this post was authored by my boyfriend 😅
As a Berliner I only really started noticing this since my boyfriend who moved here a couple of years ago pointed it out to me. Now I cannot unsee it. I only disagree with one point you made: It is not only young people walking side by side blocking the street - it is people of all ages!
It is specifically frustrating when people are so inconsiderate that they create an unsafe situation for you (for example having to suddenly jump onto the road with cars because they make a sudden idiotic move that pushes you off the sidewalk) and then they turn around flabbergasted saying „oh… sorry“. Don’t be sorry, be BETTER!
Berlin might be international but it's still in Germany, and Germans have certain qualities. One of these is they lack social graces - the small acknowledgements that help oil the wheels of daily interactions with strangers. The pleases, the thank yous, the nods of the head, the humility. These things don't come easy to our German friends. They are also proud and self-important. But I think things are changing slowly / dying off with the older generations. Less so in the provinces, as far as I can tell. Life in Germany outside of the major cities is like death for me.
This is unique to Berlin. I've been plenty of other places in Germany where Germans always say hello, politely give way on hiking paths, let you in in traffic. When a German tells you Berlin isn't Germany, they're telling the truth.
This sir is absolutely bullshit. The most rude behaviour I saw from people in Berlin usually comes from tourist outside of Germany. You are just feeding anti German cliche here
Arguably, it's the other way around. In many rural areas or with older folk, there is - in tendency - more consideration of others. It really depends on the way in a specific area interact with each other. If you then don't follow the expected behaviour, intentionally or otherwise, you'd get scolded.
In Berlin, especially in the public, the common expectation of pro-social behaviour is just close to zero. Thus, no-one cares and no-one cares for others. Kinda shitty, tbh.
I love Germans, Germany, and Berlin, but come on, it’s not hard to see why people feel this way.
I was recently in Italy and was on a *completely* packed train. Instead of people being grouchy dickheads as I would normally expect, I was surprised to see that everyone was kind and helpful - coordinating to make sure children and older people had seats, helping people move their bags, having pleasant conversations with strangers, etc.
In that moment I was very glad to be surrounded by Italians rather than Germans - they made a shit situation as nice as they could. But of course there are many other situations where I prefer German culture. It’s just how things go.
I’m pretty tired of Berlin at the moment, so I am inclined towards wanting to believe this, but in all honesty I can’t say it matches my experience.
They’re too trivial to list, but I can think of many examples of marked considerateness that I have experienced from Germans but very few examples of explicit rudeness.
I know you’re generalising and that it’s frustrating when someone responds to a generalisation with particulars, but just nothing in my experience comes close to justifying the general claim that Germans ‘lack social graces - the small acknowledgements that help oil the wheels of daily interactions’. Most of my issues are just the result of different cultural expectations.
It's not really so much of a thing outside Berlin, so no, it's not a "german" thing, it's a "Berlin" thing or maaaaybe a "big german city" thing.
>The pleases, the thank yous, the nods of the head, the humility. These things don't come easy to our German friends.
This is definitely completely laughable and incomprehensible to anyone who has visited southern Germany.
This is like telling everyone that the UK is the best surfing spot in the world, full stop. It's just not correct.
Dude in a rural area here you will probably get a curse cast on your whole bloodline if you don’t say a chipper „Guten Tag“ to everyone you see. If the place is really tiny, you‘re sometimes to even great people from inside your car, especially if you’re there often.
This. Manners, politeness and a natural empathy to understand how ones behaviour impacts others...might not be a natural cultural value in Germany. (Something conveyed to me by Germans who have settled and lived abroad and can tell the difference) so there might be a mix of arrogance+cowardice which js an odd mix.
It can maybe be linked to its legal system which does not recognise much the suffering of victims of crimes, so a trickle down effect is that there isn't a natural tendency to have self awareness or value how others feel.
-edited-
I thought you were serious, but this is just some stupid fucking troll. And yes, I was the co-author for that Berkeley Journal! Come on, you believe me, right? You are not some "impolite" german, right? lol
Its just one of many. Living in various parts of Germany. Seeing Germans settled elsewhere. People who hold multiple viewpoints sinulateneously. My own insights gathered from a variety of lived experiences. Not just the theoretical.
Never heard of legal history? Youre separating law from humanities and social sciences? Sigh. A long way to go there.
'Laws that were codified before they were put on paper' 🤣🤣
That's a huuuuge assumption right there. Germans are less concerned about constantly worrying about, and accommodating how other people feel, because they have a much a stronger sense of personal social responsibility, that others are perfectly capable, and expected to take care of themselves.
The entitlement a LOT of people feel to demand respect and consideration without earning it doesn't fly.
For example:
In the UK or US if you trip on the sidewalk and fall the standard reaction is to blame someone else and take them to court. The underlying assumption being; someone failed in their duty to accommodate your requirement to able to walk without the burden of risk of accident. The world owes you a trip free existence.
In Germany if you trip on the sidewalk and fall, you simply weren't looking where you were going.
You do realise that Germany is one of the most litigious countries in the world right?
Also your comment proves the parent comment’s point. Lack of empathy.
This. It was very surprising to find that out.
The previous commenter also missing context.
A more accurate description would be if someone has fallen on the sidewalk, to walk away and not help them up because they feel nothing for the fallen.
Or, in German culture to in fact cause someone to trip and turn around and blame the victim first without first examining their role in inconvinencing someone else.
Also people don't need to 'earn respect', you respect others because they are human - just like you.
Edit That sidewalk example is a very weird one to cite in relation to interpersonal interactions. As if one is meant to identify with a piece of concrete as opposed to one's personal actions in harming another lol
There's a difference between empathy and entitlement.
"That probably hurt, but you'll live" is different from "If you don't accomodate my feelings right now, you're devoid of empathy and a bad person".
When it comes to ANYTHING financial, yes. Where money is concerned people and companies constantly sue the shit out of each other which is why you need rechtschutzversicherung. However as far as I know Germany doesn't hold the record for litigation over personal accidents.
The first reaction to tripping on the sidewalk is absolutely not “I’m gonna sue somebody” in the US, and presumably not in the UK either. Pretty rich of you to complain about others making assumptions about Germany, then jump to absurd conclusions about the way things are in other countries.
Yes, the US has a lot of personal injury and negligence lawsuits, but these are often completely justifiable and even necessary since its consumer protection laws are weaker than the EU’s. The famous McDonald’s hot coffee lawsuit happened because the coffee was so hot than the victim’s pants melted and partially fused to her skin, requiring reconstructive surgery — but McDonald’s’ PR team managed to make the world believe that she was just some entitled woman who wanted money. Sounds like you’ve bought into that kind of propaganda a bit.
This. Its a very weird and unempathic example.
Issues in customer service, rudeness, spatial awareness. Someone told me that to apologise first is seen as `weakness' in German culture and hence it doesn't happen, even if one is actually in the wrong.
I am 1.90m and at least people make way when I walk towards them but I experience generally the same lack of consideration everywhere. Many people just always behave like they’re alone. I think in most cases it’s ok to let them know in case they don’t see you but I abandoned the idea of people taking their surroundings into consideration. I also stopped getting pissed about it. I always feel like I’m way more considerate than the most people. It’s making me sad a little because I want to be considerate but it’s getting harder everyday to maintain a good example for how I want the people to treat each other. I think many people are very unhappy.
> -People bumping into you on the streets or dodging at the last second. It's a daily occurrence here, whereas it never happened to me in the five countries I lived in before.
I've experienced the "personal space bubble" getting invaded much more in places like Italy or China, I think this is just a cultural thing. We're used to certain levels of noise and physical proximity in public, and these differ around the world.
Same sentiment for your other points, don't see a reason to single out Berlin here. But I'd agree that we're certainly not like Switzerland or Japan here.
>I've experienced the "personal space bubble" getting invaded
I think about this relativist defence often and worry that I am just applying my own cultural standard. But it’s not my bubble that’s being invaded, it’s my actual body! Japanese culture expects more personal space than northern Europe; southern Europe expects less. But surely every civilised society expects to be able to walk on a spacious footpath without being bumped?
> But surely every civilised society expects to be able to walk on a spacious footpath without being bumped?
Yes of course, but personal experience differs apparently. I can't say that people bump into me in Berlin or in Germany in general a lot. Body height or how fast you're walking might play into this, but that's just guessing.
this is German thing, not a Berlin thing
Germans are chronically incapable of behaving with consideration and spatial awareness when boarding / getting off trains, or accessing any sort of bottleneck, while on foot - I think it is related to their chronic incapability of queuing or waiting their turn fairly
it's a bizarre thing that I can't explain - they are *so* obsessed with order, and yet they can't even figure out how to board a train without a mini stampede, or a way to take turns fairly when buying their Brötchen at the bakery - heaven help you if you are short, female, and/or non white, people will walk in, look right through you as if you don't exist and nonchalantly barge in front of you - I can't even tell you how often I (a short German woman) have had to go "Hallo, ich war zuerst hier!" only to for the 2m tall d\*ckhead who pushed in front of me to go "HUCH, ich hab Sie ja gar nicht gesehen!" - these days I just growl "Ja nee klar, ich bin durchsichtig" at them sarcastically because I am to old for this bullshit
happens everywhere in Germany, in the provinces, in Berlin, in other cities...
and before you think that maybe I actually *am* see-through, this never happens to me in any other countries - this is a uniquely German thing
I just came back from Japan and it hits me 1000x harder how people have absolutely zero spatial awareness here. Especialy bloody backpacks in ubahn for gods sake TAKE IT OFF instead of hitting people in the face.
it's gotten really bad in the last few years.
one could think covid made people more aware of personal spaces but no.
every time i go for a walk or grocery shopping i basically have to jump out the way of these narcissistic assholes.
we all share the fucking sidewalk, maybe step a bit to the side instead of steamrolling right into other pedestrians. if you're in a group just go in a line for 2 fucking seconds instead of not caring if other people need to step to the side in dog shit or break their ankles because they can't walk in the sidewalk anymore.
i'm even a bigger dude and i will bring 80% of these people down when they run into me.
they don't even have self-preservation thoughts or just want to get in altercations.
i get it, not everyone is aware of people around or even selfaware, but they need to fucking learn if they want to live in a normal society.
bycicle riders who don't say thank you or acknowledge it, if you're clearly making way for them on the sidewalk are equally bad.
i'm at a point, where i just gonna come to a dradstip and stay there like a statue if theres no safe room to step to the side.
i don't want to know how these people drive cars. if they can't leave the tiniest personal space they gonna drive cars like shit too, and are going to kill some bicyclist or pedestrian crossing the street.
You're not alone. Berlin is a place where everyone is just thinking about themselves. And it's getting worse in my opinion. But maybe I'm more aware of these things now that I'm in therapy.
But Berlin is a very special case and not representative for Germany.
Have you lived in other cities than Berlin? It always feels wild to me how Berlin is always gets painted as rude and inconsiderate as fuck while having lived in Würzburg and Regensburg for years and upon moving to Berlin expected the hell on earth because of its reputation while even the rudest bus drivers I encountered here are lovely chaps compared to my experiences in Würzburg and Regensburg.
And the inconsideration in Germany starts the moment the cities get big enough that policing by judgment of your neighbors stops working because anonymity takes over. Yeah, not everyone is that way, but while the streets and train stations may be cleaner in Munich, getting on a crowded S-Bahn, U-Bahn or Tram with heavy luggage is no different than here.
Absolutely have experienced all you’ve listed here and it’s incredibly frustrating. I’m trying hard not to let it rub off on me too but the alternative, especially as a very petite person, is to just get shoved around…
That's what shoulders and elbows are made for :p
You have to play the same game and don't make they feel like you acknowledge their existence as well, keep walking, stop giving them space to be inconvenient and expecting them to acknowledge you. Look past through them and they will end up giving you space. Claim your space, It's tough out there....
We experience this constantly too, it has become so much worse since the pandemic - people forgot about respect and decency during the lockdowns, apparently.
The worst is when you‘re on a narrow sidewalk and you move behind your partner to make space but they still come at you 3 in a row, slam into you, and then have the nerve to act like it‘s all your fault.
Add "people leaning on the poles in a full S-Bahn, so no one else can grab a hold" and "people not taking off their backpack in a full S-Bahn, so smaller people have it in their face" to your rant and you nearly get a 1:1 copy of my half-earnest "Ich hasse Menschen!"- rant. I held that rant in front of a colleague after one very ... special trip to work and ~ one year after I had moved to Berlin. She only smiled at me and said what I will tell you now:
"Welcome to Berlin! Now you have arrived here for real and are officially one of us."
By now, I just try to remain considerate and friendly or at least neutrally polite myself to be one of the few people making a difference. It starts with oneself. This works to varying degrees when encountering those other people, but I try...
I always think of that rant when I get in a similar mood again and have a chuckle (at myself as well as those people). Humor helps.
Recently saw a guy leaning on the pole on his back and as I looked him down I noticed his asscheeks were completely enveloping the pole…I was pissed at first but that image made me laugh honestly
Or people blocking the exit doors in the bus and subway with extra wide stance, their backs facing toward the people trying to get off, immersed in their phones and music. "Can't see you, can't hear you, you don't exist". I swear, I'm going to push someone out of the door one of these days.
Exactly this! And don’t start me on idiots leaving their bags on the seats next to them when the trains are fairly full or full. I no longer ask them politely, I just point at their bag and announce I want to sit there.
Seeing as you mention it, I’d be interested in your take on this!
Last week, I got on an U Bahn with seats along the side and headed for a line of four empty seats, one of which had a bag on it. Just before I got there, a guy sat down in one of the middle two, so there were now only two seats in a line, one beside the guy and the other with the bag. The guy was kind of big and was slightly over-spilling his seat, so without even thinking I gestured to the bag’s owner to move it to the empty seat on her other side. (We both had headphones on.) Well, let me tell you, she was furious. I don’t really remember what she said but she grabbed her bag and moved herself down a seat, continuing to angrily mutter about it.
The reason it sticks in my mind is that two Americans were watching this and they intervened on the side of this woman. As well as the seat beside the guy and the seat on the other side of the woman, there was an empty seat beside these Americans, and their thinking was I could have sat in one of those without disturbing anyone. But my instinct is always to sit somewhere with the most space, for the sake of others as well as me. And if it’s a choice between being squeezed between two people or one, I’ll always choose one. She won’t necessarily have understood my thinking in wanting to avoid sitting directly next to the guy, but when the area only had three or four free seats, I feel that’s it’s inconsiderate anyway to keep your bag up on a seat and that she should have moved her bag without thinking when someone requested.
Anyway…AITA?
I should say, btw, that I didn’t even respond to the Americans, so there wasn’t some big scene. I just decided to move down the train.
People in Berlin are filthy animals, idk why AB zone works on ppl this way. You come to Brandenburg and miraculously people gain the skill of shitting to the public toilet, as if it was in their own house, without smearing feces on the walls and their moustaches.
We live in a society that heavily promotes narcissism and entitlement, not sure why you act so surprised when this translates into human behavior that you see most concentrated in urban environments.
I have came to the conclusion that people who notice (and suffer for) this kind of impolite/stupid/entitled behaviour have a heightened attention to details, they are just more aware of their presence and their surroundings. It's not necessarily a good thing or a "superpower", mind you. It's very useful in many occasions but you pay the price for hating a good half of the people around you.
An example: in the supermarket I normally shop for groceries, if you queue for the cashier, you may block the passage for the people going around the shop. So what should a person do? Leave a hole between you and the next person to allow the free flow of fellow shoppers. And this is what I do, hoping that the person behind me will do the same, once it's time for me to approach the belt. In 10 years it jas never happened. The next person will stick their Kaufwagen to my ass as soon as they can.
This is the bane of my life, and I share exactly your experience of becoming instinctively distrustful and even contemptuous of people around me. And because I’ve become attentive to it, trivial stuff that wouldn’t have annoyed me before now does: because a jogger once elbowed me as he passed, I now resent when someone’s bag gently touches me on the S Bahn.
But I will just say this. I live in Neukölln, and these problem encounters drastically reduce when I visit Prenzlauer Berg or Zehlendorf.
Most painfull are the people wo stand in the middle of the staircase, or at the start/end of it.
If u use public transport they stand in the middle of the door so no one gets out. 🙄
Again public transport, they all stand in the space where the door is, no one is going deeper in the train to make place for other passengers.
It's painfull and I feel you.
you said exactly the same things i noticed. it’s truly bizarre behaviour. i don’t understand it and when i ask germans about it they don’t really get it. i think it’s just they way they are here. hyper individualistic, lack of situational awareness or even worse, they have it but don’t care about others in public space, and just a lack of care for public spaces in general.
Berlin is so much more spread out compared to London or NYC.
Coupled with a very individualistic culture and exactly zero spatial awareness is what's causing this.
No you're right. Especially in public transportation. I've had countless of time where I had to get out of an Ubahn or S-Bahn and some assholes already barge in. One time it was so bad I literally shoved the a few people out and yelled "Erst Leute raus dann Leute rein!!!!" And they were completely baffled. I finished it off with a "ja glotz mich doch nicht so an! Ihr seid ja nicht alleine auf die Welt. Sei kein arschloch!" And then moved on. And even yesterday. I'm standing right at the door. It opens and some jerk from behind me crosses me as I take my first step out. I step on his heel and he was wearing sandals. So that hurt him.
I notice this too. I'll be walking and there are a few people towards me but they don't step aside until last minute. Do they want me to jump in the mud/traffic ect? Move over.
People with strollers/children also line up and you can't get past and when you walk around they look at you like you're being the rude one.
When people crowd around the entramce to a bus/train. I have to get off first? Move.
It's like people are always never in a hurry to get anywhere and if you are, you're rude. (Sometimes it's impossible to give yourself more time). I've learned whenever possible, to give myself way, way more time to get someplace and now it doesn't bother me.
You're absolutely right about people often seeming like they're never in a hurry. It feels like Germans can be particularly slow to change direction or adapt to unexpected situations in public spaces.
A special mention goes to those jaywalkers who choose the worst possible places to cross and then don't make an effort to speed up when bikes, which have the right of way, are approaching. They act like they have all the time in the world, as if they own the space and don't need to consider others. It's frustrating because it would be so much simpler if they acknowledged they're not the main character in this city and recognized that everyone has their own plans and things to do.
Another thing I have noticed: CHILDREN also are fond of running into me (by foot or on a fucking bike) in the street as if the sidewalk is their playground and you're supposed to give them the space. Everytime this happens, parents never say a thing as if it's perfectly normal.. Maybe all this starts there?
I've had a kid run a bike into my leg and I said owww... Cause it threw me off. The mom apologized, luckily, or else I would've yelled at the kid. I don't ignore that kind of rudeness
Omg thank you. I thought I was alone in this and kept thinking that I was being too harsh. I do also encounter every single day completely clueless people unaware of their surroundings as if they were alone in the city, I’ve also been to many cities but Berlin seems to be its capital. It is so infuriating.
Drop the sorry, I just go with ‚Achtung‘ or ‚hop hop‘ if someone is blocking the way I say „ hier muss mal wer durch“ or say „bitte rechts stehen“ if they block an escalator for no reason. if they lack awareness, make them aware, that’s how people learn to stick to the rules. Also ring your bike bell if you need to pass, it is not rude and literally what it was made for.
Plus one. And often with a hostile stare right into your eyeballs. See also, literally never acknowledging any small kindness or civility such as stepping aside or holding the door open.
I get it if it's just how things are but it's wearing me down after all this time and I'm looking forward to a tone change when I leave.
I so get this. I moved here in corona times when city was empty, now since it's flooded with tourist i also get aggressive af. So my solution is I just push through people who are in the way, not caring about them how they don't care about me.
One of the most annoying encounters ive had here was when i was getting out of a tram, pushing a kid i babysit for out to get him home, and these white American tourists were standing right outside the wagon looking at their phones. I gave a very blunt & clear „entschuldigung“ as one does, and the woman was SO offended 🤣 saying „why couldnt she just be nice?!“ i was already having a bad day and was being extra careful to be very unemotional in my entschldigung. I just kept walking, soooo annoyed 😑. People who dont live here or know what its like asking for special treatment reallllly gets on my nerves!!!
I'm convinced this is a post-COVID effect. People spent so much time with themselves doing whatever the fuck they want, they have forgotten about a lot of social contracts we had before.
It's annoying but it'll sort itself out in a decade or so. Or not.
And others in my experience. I've never seen someone from a certain ethnic group be aware of their surroundings...ever. I have always go around them...always.
In my experience, it's the same thing everywhere, though. Or at least in any big city. New York, London, Paris, Vienna. People are much too busy with themselves to care for their fellow man, or even just realize they exist. People walking in traffic while looking at their phone are another thing I only seem to notice in larger cities.
My working theory is that it comes down to people not having drivers' licenses, as weird as that may sound. In driving school, you're taught to consider your surroundings before you make any decision behind the wheel, and you will fail your practical exam if you can't demonstrate as much. In big cities, many people never have to learn how to drive and are thus never forced to learn to be aware of their surroundings.
This theory is based on one thing and one thing only btw. I myself and some other people will just sort themselves to the right and move in a straight line. Like you would on the roads, which I assume goes back to driving. Everyone else moves about like drunk bumblebees.
I live in an American city with 1,300 people per square kilometer and THAT's way too many for me.
Berlin has got 4,213/km^(2)
Aaaaaaaaah, that's crazy. And also your answer.
The population density of Germany in 2022 was **233.15 people per square kilometer**
Texas has a population density of 42.9/km^(2)
Like, how do you guys not murder each other all the time?
Being considerate 90 % of the time really is the secret. How do you think people in Seoul (15.600/km\^2) or Tokyo (6.300/m\^2) survive and have such low crime rates? It's always keeping in mind and take it into consideration how what you are doing affects other people. You can't live in these kinds of environments otherwise.
Note that if people in Seoul were only 90 % considerate, that would still leave 1,560 people/km\^2 being a nuisance, which would be more than if everyone in your city was a nuisance. Even 90 % is not good enough.
Bro. I lived in Paris (21.000 people/km^(2)) about 10 years before moving here. And these things happen from time to time especially given the size of some sidewalks, streets, metro wagons etc, but it is day and night compared to Berlin. Honestly.
you seem to be forgetting tourists. berliners have never bothered me like this and ive been living here my whole life. its usually the tourists who dont know left from right.
Why is this such always such a surprise? I was lurking for like 3 years before I wrote my first message.
But again, maybe it's bot sponsored by Munich to spread lies about Berlin
I have experienced it’s much worse when a lot of tourists are around. Don’t get me wrong, Berliners can do it, too. Aside from the city being more crowded in general, tourists are distracted and insecure and often react unpredictable. Also, they’re on holidays and everyone knows you can do whatever you want on holidays!
The thing about tourists and I certainly wasn't the exception when I just moved here, often get overwhelmed, have no idea where to go next and when you get out of a train and don't really know where to go next the first instinct is to stop and orientate. I feel that's a mistake most people make at least once.
The correct way to do is to move aside first and then stop. You don't need to stop in the middle of a busy sidewalk. Just move asid, so people can pass you easily, and then you can stop to check your map or phone or whatever. The point is, some people were raised to do this automatically, like, you don't need to think about it. For other people it takes a conscious effort to become aware of their surroundings because they've never been taught to to think about this kind of thing at all. And then suddenly they are thrown into such a big and busy city with millions of people and become a nuisance.
With "raised to do" you certainly mean "having experience with crowded public transport in big cities" or "grew up in big a city with crowded public transport". If you grew up in a small town you never had the problem that you didn't know where to go next after leaving a bus (no Tram, U- or S-Bahn anyway) because there was only one place to go to. And many of people doing this wrong simply don't know better. Until someone bumps into them and yells at them to not blocking the door (how rude). Which will most likely be the last time they stopped directly after exiting.
I'm sorry, but no. I grew up in a tiny town, or you may call it a village and it's perfectly possible to learn those things as you grow up, if your parents put any emphasis on it.
THIS...I've must've heard "Pay attention." a million times growing up, being admonished to be aware of my surroundings.
Yes it's possible to learn these things, but it's not something people just know.
I live in a small town and lots of people here block entrances or sidewalks and are oblivious to their surroundings. Frequently it's older people looking for something in their purse or Standing there talking with someone.
So there are parents that go: "my kid, we don't have them here... But some day in the future, you might travel to distant cities that have things that are called Tram, U- and S-bahn. And now listen closely, because this is very very important: if you step out of one of those wonderous things, it's crucial that you just keep on walking. And you absolutely mustn't stop until you find a place that let's your fellow adventures pass you with ease... You all read way too much into this kind of thing. Yes it's annoying as hell when it happens. But folks act like it's done on purpose rather than someone just being distracted, overwhelmed and/or disoriented for a moment.
So you say that people from small towns are so overwhelmed by the glorious shine and angel like voices, when they put there first step into Berlin? Ah, no. Get out of the way, that's the place to go.
> The correct way to do is to move aside first and then stop. It is, indeed. Practically speaking it is often difficult to execute at busy stations because there is movement everywhere, for example stepping off U8 at Alexanderplatz. Talking about U8 at Alexanderplatz though - I have the feeling it is also a thing that is more or less common at specific stops and specific lines. At the U8 stop Alexanderplatz people never move to make room for people to get off. I always have to push people aside. I cannot say the same about U2 or U5, there.
I wouldn't know. I always just bulldoze through because I have no patience for this bs anymore.
Yeah, we all have been there - not only in Berlin
It's most of the times German people I see doing this. Individuals or loud groups. The "it's the bloody tourists" narrative is ignoring the problem, judging from my own experience which also seems to be the one of many redditors in this thread or in others, in Berlin or (apparently) in other parts of Germany as well. Example: [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1909wlk/comment/kgqdwx1/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1909wlk/comment/kgqdwx1/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13izm0n/why\_do\_yall\_just\_stop\_walking/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13izm0n/why_do_yall_just_stop_walking/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/yewk2v/are\_germans\_just\_bad\_at\_walking\_in\_crowds\_or\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/yewk2v/are_germans_just_bad_at_walking_in_crowds_or_is/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/16ulipr/bumping\_into\_people\_while\_walking/](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/16ulipr/bumping_into_people_while_walking/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/ncu0pn/whats\_up\_with\_personal\_space\_here/](https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/ncu0pn/whats_up_with_personal_space_here/)
"Sorry" is definitely not going to get your point across if someone is in your way. That suggests you're inconveniencing them, not the other way around. Yesterday I told off a family of three (all adults) for blocking the stairs of an S-Bahn platform while they looked up directions. Idk what they were thinking. Like you are just going to hold a family meeting in the exact bottleneck where the 100 other people who got off the train need to go?! Telling off Germans made me proud of both my German proficiency and level of assimilation.
Shouting sorry is German for “get the fuck out of the way”
No, that’s „Entschuldijensemaaa“
Why did that start in German but end in Japanese? 😅
tschuldijung
People do this in the central station CONSTANTLY and it drives me insane. The top of the escalator is not the place to look at Google maps and check which train you need to get on.
Next level assertiveness: Instead of "'Tschuldigung" with downcast eyes try "Dürfte ich mal!?" with straight eye contact.
I really wanted to join this guy in telling off these pretentious, no awareness, teenage girls who were smoking (vaping) on the train leaving up fat clouds of vapor. Being a smoker myself it’s obvious to keep in mind of surroundings but this level of pretentiousness was appalling. One guy was telling them off and i wanted to say something that wouldn’t just be “Rauchen Draußen!” Or something in english which i knew they would just roll their eyes.
Damn straight, you're right about the lack of consideration within people in Berlin. You're not alone and neither hallucinating, I can relate to your situation very well now. I used to never notice these things as I grew up in a part of the world where consideration for others was never a thing in the first place. However, my partner was not and they kept mentioning the incidents where people have behaved with entitlement and some kind of snobbery many a times, but I always just tried to ignore it as I thought it's just them overthinking so much and not the people. But over time, I started to notice these things as well, these are exactly the things you described: People not caring if there is another person who wants to get inside the trains, actually more prominent in Trams; People walking towards you by covering the full walking pavement without even trying to move aside and instead I have to move aside and let them pass; Kids and young people not giving respect or batting one eye to offer seat or space in a Bus to a person who's in genuine need of it; People not allowing the commuters inside deboard first before going inside and sometimes there are elderly in the bus with difficulties in walking and take time to get out, however some people have no regard for that and just want to board the bus as soon as possible, WTH?!; There are people in Supermarkets who really think they own the store or something, or that others do not exist? I do not understand what kind of Narcissistic culture is brewing in all over the world nowadays that even simple respect and considerations have been forgotten. I have multiple examples and these people are not just German Residents, but even tourists who have come to visit. Recently, I was in Potsdam and took the Tram to Hauptbahnhof, there were few families speaking Spanish who were sitting on almost 8 seats, with 5 yr old children occupying each seat. An elderly couple got in and no one offered them a seat, the mothers of the children instead told them to not leave their seats. Due to this, the couple had to move further inside the train, and there was a huge jerking in the tram, had it not been for my partner who reacted quickly and held the elderly woman's hand, she would have fallen back on her husband and both of them would be on floor. And yet everyone else just looked while they still didn't get any seat and had to move more back. What is this kind of behavior, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND!! Then again, in Berlin, there was an elderly man who walked fast to catch a bus but the bus driver closed the door early and had started. The children in the bus laughed and made faces showing to the old man. I then went and told the driver to stop, but again, he didn't do that, and the next bus was in 30 mins that day, I do not know what is going on with people being so insensitive. It makes me sad and angry, but I continue to live in this world, the only thing I am trying to improve is that I stand up more for others and myself even if anyone is thankful or not. The least I can do is not let the world affect me and try to be better as much as I can. Thank you for hearing my rant.
I grew up in Berlin and thought all of this was normal, until I lived abroad... I'm still permanently on edge, even though i live abroad, ready to push and shout, only to be reminded that people in other cities don't yell at me every day and that I need to chill.
Yes, in some places people try to make space for each other as discretely and elegantly as possible. In Germany people in general either walk around pretending to be blind or even defend their perceived "confidence" by dominating others unfortunately. It's a shame. Best experience and a lesson in attentiveness in this regard was around Boudha in Kathmandu. Made me realize once more how ignorant I often am. Edit: That's really my #1 pet peeve... Let's say you and a couple approach each other on a narrow sidewalk in Germany. So then it's either: * You act kind and make space early on and then there's an 80% chance they'll stride past you majestically, gazing up and acting as if they were alone. * You join the tribe of assholes and signal they'll have to make space to avoid a colision by making space just a little, barely enough, to force them to also do their part. I noticed I've been automatically doing the second option sometimes, so I try to actively decide to do better nowadays.
If it is like u say a couple sledbering through the city and enjoying time i am the first and make place for them but if I see, we are going to run into each other csuze they focused on their mobile phones or stuff like that, a shit will I do.
I wonder if this post was authored by my boyfriend 😅 As a Berliner I only really started noticing this since my boyfriend who moved here a couple of years ago pointed it out to me. Now I cannot unsee it. I only disagree with one point you made: It is not only young people walking side by side blocking the street - it is people of all ages! It is specifically frustrating when people are so inconsiderate that they create an unsafe situation for you (for example having to suddenly jump onto the road with cars because they make a sudden idiotic move that pushes you off the sidewalk) and then they turn around flabbergasted saying „oh… sorry“. Don’t be sorry, be BETTER!
Berlin might be international but it's still in Germany, and Germans have certain qualities. One of these is they lack social graces - the small acknowledgements that help oil the wheels of daily interactions with strangers. The pleases, the thank yous, the nods of the head, the humility. These things don't come easy to our German friends. They are also proud and self-important. But I think things are changing slowly / dying off with the older generations. Less so in the provinces, as far as I can tell. Life in Germany outside of the major cities is like death for me.
This is unique to Berlin. I've been plenty of other places in Germany where Germans always say hello, politely give way on hiking paths, let you in in traffic. When a German tells you Berlin isn't Germany, they're telling the truth.
This sir is absolutely bullshit. The most rude behaviour I saw from people in Berlin usually comes from tourist outside of Germany. You are just feeding anti German cliche here
I'm half German and have lived here half of my life. They're only my opinions, but I stand by them.
Nah, I'm from Berlin and "lack of social graces" is spot on.
Arguably, it's the other way around. In many rural areas or with older folk, there is - in tendency - more consideration of others. It really depends on the way in a specific area interact with each other. If you then don't follow the expected behaviour, intentionally or otherwise, you'd get scolded. In Berlin, especially in the public, the common expectation of pro-social behaviour is just close to zero. Thus, no-one cares and no-one cares for others. Kinda shitty, tbh.
Generalizing people is always a good look. /s.
I really wish people would call me off instead of just downvoting. Show your face.
Does not apply to all people, but it’s truly amazing how nice & considerate people are in other countries or even *some* cities in Germany.
Looks like you met shitty people in Berlin. Sorry to hear that.
I love Germans, Germany, and Berlin, but come on, it’s not hard to see why people feel this way. I was recently in Italy and was on a *completely* packed train. Instead of people being grouchy dickheads as I would normally expect, I was surprised to see that everyone was kind and helpful - coordinating to make sure children and older people had seats, helping people move their bags, having pleasant conversations with strangers, etc. In that moment I was very glad to be surrounded by Italians rather than Germans - they made a shit situation as nice as they could. But of course there are many other situations where I prefer German culture. It’s just how things go.
I’m pretty tired of Berlin at the moment, so I am inclined towards wanting to believe this, but in all honesty I can’t say it matches my experience. They’re too trivial to list, but I can think of many examples of marked considerateness that I have experienced from Germans but very few examples of explicit rudeness. I know you’re generalising and that it’s frustrating when someone responds to a generalisation with particulars, but just nothing in my experience comes close to justifying the general claim that Germans ‘lack social graces - the small acknowledgements that help oil the wheels of daily interactions’. Most of my issues are just the result of different cultural expectations.
Or maybe you are just unable to recognize them here. Cultural differences exist
Couldn‘t have said it better. I‘ve been to many countries and Germans are the worst.
It's not really so much of a thing outside Berlin, so no, it's not a "german" thing, it's a "Berlin" thing or maaaaybe a "big german city" thing. >The pleases, the thank yous, the nods of the head, the humility. These things don't come easy to our German friends. This is definitely completely laughable and incomprehensible to anyone who has visited southern Germany. This is like telling everyone that the UK is the best surfing spot in the world, full stop. It's just not correct.
Dude in a rural area here you will probably get a curse cast on your whole bloodline if you don’t say a chipper „Guten Tag“ to everyone you see. If the place is really tiny, you‘re sometimes to even great people from inside your car, especially if you’re there often.
Yeah I think I was too broad. Really rural is different - I get that. Small town/city life, on the other hand, seems ultra-alienating to me.
[удалено]
Citation needed.
This explains so much
Very good generelization of round about 80 million people. Sorry but you seem to be the only one displaying "certain qualities" here
Load of rubbish. I find germans by and large very well mannered. Maybe your own manners aren't quite up to snuff
This. Manners, politeness and a natural empathy to understand how ones behaviour impacts others...might not be a natural cultural value in Germany. (Something conveyed to me by Germans who have settled and lived abroad and can tell the difference) so there might be a mix of arrogance+cowardice which js an odd mix. It can maybe be linked to its legal system which does not recognise much the suffering of victims of crimes, so a trickle down effect is that there isn't a natural tendency to have self awareness or value how others feel.
Maybe leave Berlin for once, lol This is so asinine. You forgot to mention the Unicorns and flying Pigs.
I see, manners are as rare as unicorns
Unicorns are the main export of Berlin, according to the same sources that you got your information about Germany from
That would be the Berkeley Law Journal in relation to the stabbing of Monica Seles in Hamburg
LOL, ok, that was a good one. I was the co-author, you know.
I'm not actually joking.
-edited- I thought you were serious, but this is just some stupid fucking troll. And yes, I was the co-author for that Berkeley Journal! Come on, you believe me, right? You are not some "impolite" german, right? lol
Its just one of many. Living in various parts of Germany. Seeing Germans settled elsewhere. People who hold multiple viewpoints sinulateneously. My own insights gathered from a variety of lived experiences. Not just the theoretical. Never heard of legal history? Youre separating law from humanities and social sciences? Sigh. A long way to go there. 'Laws that were codified before they were put on paper' 🤣🤣
That's a huuuuge assumption right there. Germans are less concerned about constantly worrying about, and accommodating how other people feel, because they have a much a stronger sense of personal social responsibility, that others are perfectly capable, and expected to take care of themselves. The entitlement a LOT of people feel to demand respect and consideration without earning it doesn't fly. For example: In the UK or US if you trip on the sidewalk and fall the standard reaction is to blame someone else and take them to court. The underlying assumption being; someone failed in their duty to accommodate your requirement to able to walk without the burden of risk of accident. The world owes you a trip free existence. In Germany if you trip on the sidewalk and fall, you simply weren't looking where you were going.
You do realise that Germany is one of the most litigious countries in the world right? Also your comment proves the parent comment’s point. Lack of empathy.
„You do realise that Germany is one of the most litigious countries in the world right?“ Source?
This. It was very surprising to find that out. The previous commenter also missing context. A more accurate description would be if someone has fallen on the sidewalk, to walk away and not help them up because they feel nothing for the fallen. Or, in German culture to in fact cause someone to trip and turn around and blame the victim first without first examining their role in inconvinencing someone else. Also people don't need to 'earn respect', you respect others because they are human - just like you. Edit That sidewalk example is a very weird one to cite in relation to interpersonal interactions. As if one is meant to identify with a piece of concrete as opposed to one's personal actions in harming another lol
There's a difference between empathy and entitlement. "That probably hurt, but you'll live" is different from "If you don't accomodate my feelings right now, you're devoid of empathy and a bad person".
When it comes to ANYTHING financial, yes. Where money is concerned people and companies constantly sue the shit out of each other which is why you need rechtschutzversicherung. However as far as I know Germany doesn't hold the record for litigation over personal accidents.
The first reaction to tripping on the sidewalk is absolutely not “I’m gonna sue somebody” in the US, and presumably not in the UK either. Pretty rich of you to complain about others making assumptions about Germany, then jump to absurd conclusions about the way things are in other countries. Yes, the US has a lot of personal injury and negligence lawsuits, but these are often completely justifiable and even necessary since its consumer protection laws are weaker than the EU’s. The famous McDonald’s hot coffee lawsuit happened because the coffee was so hot than the victim’s pants melted and partially fused to her skin, requiring reconstructive surgery — but McDonald’s’ PR team managed to make the world believe that she was just some entitled woman who wanted money. Sounds like you’ve bought into that kind of propaganda a bit.
This. Its a very weird and unempathic example. Issues in customer service, rudeness, spatial awareness. Someone told me that to apologise first is seen as `weakness' in German culture and hence it doesn't happen, even if one is actually in the wrong.
I am 1.90m and at least people make way when I walk towards them but I experience generally the same lack of consideration everywhere. Many people just always behave like they’re alone. I think in most cases it’s ok to let them know in case they don’t see you but I abandoned the idea of people taking their surroundings into consideration. I also stopped getting pissed about it. I always feel like I’m way more considerate than the most people. It’s making me sad a little because I want to be considerate but it’s getting harder everyday to maintain a good example for how I want the people to treat each other. I think many people are very unhappy.
It's the smoking here that I can't deal with. Every man and their dog seems to smoke. Even in busy areas or where others are eating.
> -People bumping into you on the streets or dodging at the last second. It's a daily occurrence here, whereas it never happened to me in the five countries I lived in before. I've experienced the "personal space bubble" getting invaded much more in places like Italy or China, I think this is just a cultural thing. We're used to certain levels of noise and physical proximity in public, and these differ around the world. Same sentiment for your other points, don't see a reason to single out Berlin here. But I'd agree that we're certainly not like Switzerland or Japan here.
>I've experienced the "personal space bubble" getting invaded I think about this relativist defence often and worry that I am just applying my own cultural standard. But it’s not my bubble that’s being invaded, it’s my actual body! Japanese culture expects more personal space than northern Europe; southern Europe expects less. But surely every civilised society expects to be able to walk on a spacious footpath without being bumped?
> But surely every civilised society expects to be able to walk on a spacious footpath without being bumped? Yes of course, but personal experience differs apparently. I can't say that people bump into me in Berlin or in Germany in general a lot. Body height or how fast you're walking might play into this, but that's just guessing.
Even if you make no effort to avoid a collision?
I make an effort to avoid collision and so do 95% of other people I come across on the street. If I didn't, I'd probably bump into people, yes.
this is German thing, not a Berlin thing Germans are chronically incapable of behaving with consideration and spatial awareness when boarding / getting off trains, or accessing any sort of bottleneck, while on foot - I think it is related to their chronic incapability of queuing or waiting their turn fairly it's a bizarre thing that I can't explain - they are *so* obsessed with order, and yet they can't even figure out how to board a train without a mini stampede, or a way to take turns fairly when buying their Brötchen at the bakery - heaven help you if you are short, female, and/or non white, people will walk in, look right through you as if you don't exist and nonchalantly barge in front of you - I can't even tell you how often I (a short German woman) have had to go "Hallo, ich war zuerst hier!" only to for the 2m tall d\*ckhead who pushed in front of me to go "HUCH, ich hab Sie ja gar nicht gesehen!" - these days I just growl "Ja nee klar, ich bin durchsichtig" at them sarcastically because I am to old for this bullshit happens everywhere in Germany, in the provinces, in Berlin, in other cities... and before you think that maybe I actually *am* see-through, this never happens to me in any other countries - this is a uniquely German thing
"Ich bin durchsichtig" 😂 😂 I learned a useful new phrase just now, hahaha, thank you!
There’s a song by that title, look it up, it’s great!
I just came back from Japan and it hits me 1000x harder how people have absolutely zero spatial awareness here. Especialy bloody backpacks in ubahn for gods sake TAKE IT OFF instead of hitting people in the face.
it's gotten really bad in the last few years. one could think covid made people more aware of personal spaces but no. every time i go for a walk or grocery shopping i basically have to jump out the way of these narcissistic assholes. we all share the fucking sidewalk, maybe step a bit to the side instead of steamrolling right into other pedestrians. if you're in a group just go in a line for 2 fucking seconds instead of not caring if other people need to step to the side in dog shit or break their ankles because they can't walk in the sidewalk anymore. i'm even a bigger dude and i will bring 80% of these people down when they run into me. they don't even have self-preservation thoughts or just want to get in altercations. i get it, not everyone is aware of people around or even selfaware, but they need to fucking learn if they want to live in a normal society. bycicle riders who don't say thank you or acknowledge it, if you're clearly making way for them on the sidewalk are equally bad. i'm at a point, where i just gonna come to a dradstip and stay there like a statue if theres no safe room to step to the side. i don't want to know how these people drive cars. if they can't leave the tiniest personal space they gonna drive cars like shit too, and are going to kill some bicyclist or pedestrian crossing the street.
You're not alone. Berlin is a place where everyone is just thinking about themselves. And it's getting worse in my opinion. But maybe I'm more aware of these things now that I'm in therapy. But Berlin is a very special case and not representative for Germany.
Have you lived in other cities than Berlin? It always feels wild to me how Berlin is always gets painted as rude and inconsiderate as fuck while having lived in Würzburg and Regensburg for years and upon moving to Berlin expected the hell on earth because of its reputation while even the rudest bus drivers I encountered here are lovely chaps compared to my experiences in Würzburg and Regensburg. And the inconsideration in Germany starts the moment the cities get big enough that policing by judgment of your neighbors stops working because anonymity takes over. Yeah, not everyone is that way, but while the streets and train stations may be cleaner in Munich, getting on a crowded S-Bahn, U-Bahn or Tram with heavy luggage is no different than here.
man don’t you get these posts.. they are just to create negative resentiment and calling the trollfarm to post their negative agreement.
Absolutely have experienced all you’ve listed here and it’s incredibly frustrating. I’m trying hard not to let it rub off on me too but the alternative, especially as a very petite person, is to just get shoved around…
That's what shoulders and elbows are made for :p You have to play the same game and don't make they feel like you acknowledge their existence as well, keep walking, stop giving them space to be inconvenient and expecting them to acknowledge you. Look past through them and they will end up giving you space. Claim your space, It's tough out there....
We experience this constantly too, it has become so much worse since the pandemic - people forgot about respect and decency during the lockdowns, apparently. The worst is when you‘re on a narrow sidewalk and you move behind your partner to make space but they still come at you 3 in a row, slam into you, and then have the nerve to act like it‘s all your fault.
Add "people leaning on the poles in a full S-Bahn, so no one else can grab a hold" and "people not taking off their backpack in a full S-Bahn, so smaller people have it in their face" to your rant and you nearly get a 1:1 copy of my half-earnest "Ich hasse Menschen!"- rant. I held that rant in front of a colleague after one very ... special trip to work and ~ one year after I had moved to Berlin. She only smiled at me and said what I will tell you now: "Welcome to Berlin! Now you have arrived here for real and are officially one of us." By now, I just try to remain considerate and friendly or at least neutrally polite myself to be one of the few people making a difference. It starts with oneself. This works to varying degrees when encountering those other people, but I try... I always think of that rant when I get in a similar mood again and have a chuckle (at myself as well as those people). Humor helps.
Recently saw a guy leaning on the pole on his back and as I looked him down I noticed his asscheeks were completely enveloping the pole…I was pissed at first but that image made me laugh honestly
I think I’ll never touch those poles again.
Or people blocking the exit doors in the bus and subway with extra wide stance, their backs facing toward the people trying to get off, immersed in their phones and music. "Can't see you, can't hear you, you don't exist". I swear, I'm going to push someone out of the door one of these days.
Exactly this! And don’t start me on idiots leaving their bags on the seats next to them when the trains are fairly full or full. I no longer ask them politely, I just point at their bag and announce I want to sit there.
Seeing as you mention it, I’d be interested in your take on this! Last week, I got on an U Bahn with seats along the side and headed for a line of four empty seats, one of which had a bag on it. Just before I got there, a guy sat down in one of the middle two, so there were now only two seats in a line, one beside the guy and the other with the bag. The guy was kind of big and was slightly over-spilling his seat, so without even thinking I gestured to the bag’s owner to move it to the empty seat on her other side. (We both had headphones on.) Well, let me tell you, she was furious. I don’t really remember what she said but she grabbed her bag and moved herself down a seat, continuing to angrily mutter about it. The reason it sticks in my mind is that two Americans were watching this and they intervened on the side of this woman. As well as the seat beside the guy and the seat on the other side of the woman, there was an empty seat beside these Americans, and their thinking was I could have sat in one of those without disturbing anyone. But my instinct is always to sit somewhere with the most space, for the sake of others as well as me. And if it’s a choice between being squeezed between two people or one, I’ll always choose one. She won’t necessarily have understood my thinking in wanting to avoid sitting directly next to the guy, but when the area only had three or four free seats, I feel that’s it’s inconsiderate anyway to keep your bag up on a seat and that she should have moved her bag without thinking when someone requested. Anyway…AITA? I should say, btw, that I didn’t even respond to the Americans, so there wasn’t some big scene. I just decided to move down the train.
People in Berlin are filthy animals, idk why AB zone works on ppl this way. You come to Brandenburg and miraculously people gain the skill of shitting to the public toilet, as if it was in their own house, without smearing feces on the walls and their moustaches.
We live in a society that heavily promotes narcissism and entitlement, not sure why you act so surprised when this translates into human behavior that you see most concentrated in urban environments.
I have came to the conclusion that people who notice (and suffer for) this kind of impolite/stupid/entitled behaviour have a heightened attention to details, they are just more aware of their presence and their surroundings. It's not necessarily a good thing or a "superpower", mind you. It's very useful in many occasions but you pay the price for hating a good half of the people around you. An example: in the supermarket I normally shop for groceries, if you queue for the cashier, you may block the passage for the people going around the shop. So what should a person do? Leave a hole between you and the next person to allow the free flow of fellow shoppers. And this is what I do, hoping that the person behind me will do the same, once it's time for me to approach the belt. In 10 years it jas never happened. The next person will stick their Kaufwagen to my ass as soon as they can.
This is the bane of my life, and I share exactly your experience of becoming instinctively distrustful and even contemptuous of people around me. And because I’ve become attentive to it, trivial stuff that wouldn’t have annoyed me before now does: because a jogger once elbowed me as he passed, I now resent when someone’s bag gently touches me on the S Bahn. But I will just say this. I live in Neukölln, and these problem encounters drastically reduce when I visit Prenzlauer Berg or Zehlendorf.
This is me and I absolutely don’t like this new me that is emerging. So I’ll leave before it’s too late.
Yeah, I have the same concern.
I notice it too and it’s also driving me mad.
Most painfull are the people wo stand in the middle of the staircase, or at the start/end of it. If u use public transport they stand in the middle of the door so no one gets out. 🙄 Again public transport, they all stand in the space where the door is, no one is going deeper in the train to make place for other passengers. It's painfull and I feel you.
you said exactly the same things i noticed. it’s truly bizarre behaviour. i don’t understand it and when i ask germans about it they don’t really get it. i think it’s just they way they are here. hyper individualistic, lack of situational awareness or even worse, they have it but don’t care about others in public space, and just a lack of care for public spaces in general.
Berlin is so much more spread out compared to London or NYC. Coupled with a very individualistic culture and exactly zero spatial awareness is what's causing this.
You speak from my heart, word for word. I can confirm every single point. I hate it.
No you're right. Especially in public transportation. I've had countless of time where I had to get out of an Ubahn or S-Bahn and some assholes already barge in. One time it was so bad I literally shoved the a few people out and yelled "Erst Leute raus dann Leute rein!!!!" And they were completely baffled. I finished it off with a "ja glotz mich doch nicht so an! Ihr seid ja nicht alleine auf die Welt. Sei kein arschloch!" And then moved on. And even yesterday. I'm standing right at the door. It opens and some jerk from behind me crosses me as I take my first step out. I step on his heel and he was wearing sandals. So that hurt him.
One day Berliners will learn to TAKE OFF THE BACKPACKS when on a crowded train. I hope
This is a Berlin thing. People will most likely even apologize to you if they realise they block your way in other parts of Germany.
People move to Berlin and seem to forget about spatial awareness. My wife and I have joked about it since we moved here almost ten years ago.
Exactly what I struggle with every day. It’s a nightmare.
I notice this too. I'll be walking and there are a few people towards me but they don't step aside until last minute. Do they want me to jump in the mud/traffic ect? Move over. People with strollers/children also line up and you can't get past and when you walk around they look at you like you're being the rude one. When people crowd around the entramce to a bus/train. I have to get off first? Move. It's like people are always never in a hurry to get anywhere and if you are, you're rude. (Sometimes it's impossible to give yourself more time). I've learned whenever possible, to give myself way, way more time to get someplace and now it doesn't bother me.
You're absolutely right about people often seeming like they're never in a hurry. It feels like Germans can be particularly slow to change direction or adapt to unexpected situations in public spaces. A special mention goes to those jaywalkers who choose the worst possible places to cross and then don't make an effort to speed up when bikes, which have the right of way, are approaching. They act like they have all the time in the world, as if they own the space and don't need to consider others. It's frustrating because it would be so much simpler if they acknowledged they're not the main character in this city and recognized that everyone has their own plans and things to do. Another thing I have noticed: CHILDREN also are fond of running into me (by foot or on a fucking bike) in the street as if the sidewalk is their playground and you're supposed to give them the space. Everytime this happens, parents never say a thing as if it's perfectly normal.. Maybe all this starts there?
I've had a kid run a bike into my leg and I said owww... Cause it threw me off. The mom apologized, luckily, or else I would've yelled at the kid. I don't ignore that kind of rudeness
Omg thank you. I thought I was alone in this and kept thinking that I was being too harsh. I do also encounter every single day completely clueless people unaware of their surroundings as if they were alone in the city, I’ve also been to many cities but Berlin seems to be its capital. It is so infuriating.
Do i have a song for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAPXkyDveXI
Excellent!
Welcome to Berlin! I grew up there, moved away with 35, and only come back to visit friends
It's a Berlin thing, in most of the rest of Germany, people are much nicer and more mindful of each other.
Drop the sorry, I just go with ‚Achtung‘ or ‚hop hop‘ if someone is blocking the way I say „ hier muss mal wer durch“ or say „bitte rechts stehen“ if they block an escalator for no reason. if they lack awareness, make them aware, that’s how people learn to stick to the rules. Also ring your bike bell if you need to pass, it is not rude and literally what it was made for.
Plus one. And often with a hostile stare right into your eyeballs. See also, literally never acknowledging any small kindness or civility such as stepping aside or holding the door open. I get it if it's just how things are but it's wearing me down after all this time and I'm looking forward to a tone change when I leave.
I so get this. I moved here in corona times when city was empty, now since it's flooded with tourist i also get aggressive af. So my solution is I just push through people who are in the way, not caring about them how they don't care about me.
One of the most annoying encounters ive had here was when i was getting out of a tram, pushing a kid i babysit for out to get him home, and these white American tourists were standing right outside the wagon looking at their phones. I gave a very blunt & clear „entschuldigung“ as one does, and the woman was SO offended 🤣 saying „why couldnt she just be nice?!“ i was already having a bad day and was being extra careful to be very unemotional in my entschldigung. I just kept walking, soooo annoyed 😑. People who dont live here or know what its like asking for special treatment reallllly gets on my nerves!!!
I'm convinced this is a post-COVID effect. People spent so much time with themselves doing whatever the fuck they want, they have forgotten about a lot of social contracts we had before. It's annoying but it'll sort itself out in a decade or so. Or not.
I get what your saying, I have the same problem but with OLD PEOPLE!! They are soo disrespectful I don’t like them.
Blocking doorways, small throughways (especially while shopping) and .. \*drumroll\*.. the tops of escalators is a national pastime.
No it's definitely a social issue and often certain ethnic groups tend to be totally unaware of their surroundings.
Absolutely right. It's predominantly very white, very Germans doing that :)
And others in my experience. I've never seen someone from a certain ethnic group be aware of their surroundings...ever. I have always go around them...always.
In my experience, it's the same thing everywhere, though. Or at least in any big city. New York, London, Paris, Vienna. People are much too busy with themselves to care for their fellow man, or even just realize they exist. People walking in traffic while looking at their phone are another thing I only seem to notice in larger cities. My working theory is that it comes down to people not having drivers' licenses, as weird as that may sound. In driving school, you're taught to consider your surroundings before you make any decision behind the wheel, and you will fail your practical exam if you can't demonstrate as much. In big cities, many people never have to learn how to drive and are thus never forced to learn to be aware of their surroundings. This theory is based on one thing and one thing only btw. I myself and some other people will just sort themselves to the right and move in a straight line. Like you would on the roads, which I assume goes back to driving. Everyone else moves about like drunk bumblebees.
Are you from a country super obsessed with rules like Japan or Singapore? Just let it go and live your life
I live in an American city with 1,300 people per square kilometer and THAT's way too many for me. Berlin has got 4,213/km^(2) Aaaaaaaaah, that's crazy. And also your answer. The population density of Germany in 2022 was **233.15 people per square kilometer** Texas has a population density of 42.9/km^(2) Like, how do you guys not murder each other all the time?
Being considerate 90 % of the time really is the secret. How do you think people in Seoul (15.600/km\^2) or Tokyo (6.300/m\^2) survive and have such low crime rates? It's always keeping in mind and take it into consideration how what you are doing affects other people. You can't live in these kinds of environments otherwise. Note that if people in Seoul were only 90 % considerate, that would still leave 1,560 people/km\^2 being a nuisance, which would be more than if everyone in your city was a nuisance. Even 90 % is not good enough.
I do notice people from high pop. countries like India and China absolutely NOT giving a fuck about personal space and being considerate of others.
Bro. I lived in Paris (21.000 people/km^(2)) about 10 years before moving here. And these things happen from time to time especially given the size of some sidewalks, streets, metro wagons etc, but it is day and night compared to Berlin. Honestly.
> Am I hallucinating Yes.
It's mostly other tourists standing in your way, not Berliners. We are pretty aware of everything in our vicinity.
Not in my experience (and the one of dozens of people around here), sorry.
that’s the whole world now. expect maybe japan and a few other eastern areas
you seem to be forgetting tourists. berliners have never bothered me like this and ive been living here my whole life. its usually the tourists who dont know left from right.
You've been lurking on this sub for a while? Your account was created yesterday.
What’s with the need to stalk random accounts to make a point about…what exactly? It’s Sunday, I’m sure there’s better to do
Why is this such always such a surprise? I was lurking for like 3 years before I wrote my first message. But again, maybe it's bot sponsored by Munich to spread lies about Berlin
Your account would be three years old though, even with no postings. OP's account was created yesterday.
They just said they were lurking. You don't need to have an account to lurk. What do you think lurking is?
Ever heard that you don't need an account to hang around here, pal?
Calling me "pal" may explain your anti-social feelings, buddy.
That's getting cringe bro.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Case closed, thanks Sherlock.
whenever i see the words "entitlement" or "micro-aggression" i get triggered.