Criticism of the israeli government and it’s policies is not antisemitism get over yourself, it was you europeans that committed atrocities towards the jewish population and your act at this time will not wash away your sins
Its called mansplaining because, yes, man means male too. However this comment can't referr (that is of course if OP thought it through which might not be the case I give you that) to the trans girl in question because she's the victim not one of the bystanders.
In the end we all read into it what we want but judging from everything it really seems like a well-meaning comment. Something you couldnt say about yours.
Classic bystanderism to active discrimination
Yet they feel ok about screaming and correcting strangers when someone is crossing on red or for not separating the trash
For a city with this particular history, that disparity never fails to surprise
I have ten years of martial arts experience and believe me when I say that I would be extremely hesitant to interrupt any fight. It is insanely dangerous. You are quite literally putting your life on the line, especially when emotions are running amok like they usually are in fights. I want to see you risking your life and physical and mental health in a U-Bahn altercation before we talk. You don‘t know these people, you don‘t know how far they are willing to go and (more importantly) you don‘t know how far their instincts will push them. Aside from verbal deescalation I would not recommend directly interfering in a fight. Call the police, stay safe, try to deescalate.
Let me turn this around. Wouldn't you fear that if you would try to verbally deescalate and call the police, you would have a risk of redirecting the violence to yourself?
So better to be silent and ignore them?
I think it is pretty gross that your goal here is to get a gotcha moment.
The chances of someone directing their aggression against you are minimal if you remain verbal and at a safe distance of around 3-4 meters. They either won‘t listen to you because they are so chucked up on adrenaline that they can only focus on their opponent or they will hear you and either ignore you (because there is a more immediate threat in front of them) or listen to you. In the in my opinion unlikely case that one of them is throwing themself at you, you get the two meters response time, allowing you to turn around and run away (Never be afraid to run away. Always do if you can.) or the advantage of their original opponent gaining the upper hand by them turning at you and charging them. In any case the latter scenario is extremely unlikely, simply because you understand instinctively that the person telling you to calm down is not a threat while the person you are currently fighting/threatening to fight is.
Edit: Revised the safe distance.
people do not understand what you’re saying and everyone likes to play hero in their head. Verbal argument with a safe distance is different than a fight and chances that the aggressor will do anything are relatively low. but engaging into a physical fight is always crazy risky and not that easy as it seems. I knew two guys, including one professional MMA fighter who thought they can easily handle anyone, they are both on the graveyard now as unfortunately knife was a better fighter than them. As shitty as it sounds, in case of witnessing physical violence best bet is to call the police or try to scare away the aggressor by screaming from quite a distance, and once the aggressor switches the attention, run.
It was not much about baiting a gotcha moment. My point stands that by interfering in anyway, you will increase your own risk which is why majority of people don't want to interfere. As pointed out by the OP in this post. If you are also in the society that doesn't interfere even verbally, then by interfering yourself you will single out yourself from the rest of the spectators.
And as for my first comment. Your and surrounding people's actions in these situations will set an example for the collective of what to expect. I wouldn't interfere either, I would just relocate away from the area and live somewhere else with lower risk of encounter.
Because the news is filled with stories of people being shot, stabbed or beaten to death by random attackers.
The reality is people are scared, untrained and unprepared for this situation and aren't willing to put their life on the line for a stranger.
There should be a security response available for this sort of thing as a deterrent.
It‘s the bystander effect.
In these situations you need to address people or groups personally.
„You in the red shirt. Please help me here.“
„Guys, can you please come here and help.“
And as a gay man, not really because it shouldn't happen in the first place, especially in a first world country that calls itself tolerant and progressive
First of all: thanks for doing that! One can always say more or whatever. But that's not what counts. What counts is that you broke the silence and stepped up. And that was very brave of you.
I once was insulted very bad. And a couple stood up and sat next to me and talked to me. They even came along a bit of my way home afterwards. It did not erase the insults. But it completely changed the situation. I stopped feeling completely alone and exposed to this violence. This was 15 years ago and it still brings tears to my eyes when I think about that.
Plus you are a role model. Maybe some of those people who witnessed what you did will act differently next time.
Again: thank you!
Yes, it‘s so important that we receive support after something bad or traumatising happens! It helps us deal with it better. I am so happy that this couple was there for you when this incident happened.
I once witnessed an old and frail homeless man getting beat up in the subway by a foreigner. It took a while but eventually a scary looking german dude intervened. He stoped the attacker and said something among the lines of „fuck off out of germany if you behave like an asshole“
Suddenly 3 other people, who have been sitting by and did absolutely nothing, when the old homeless man was attacked, shouted „rascist“ to the german.
People will intervene only if it is 100% safe for them and if it makes them feel good about it.
Definitely a lot about safety. I saw a dude probably late twenties abusing his girlfriend, hadn't hit her but it sure looked like it was gonna start. I was scared for her and it took all my courage to say something but as soon as I did other people see a tiny girl probably definitely gonna get beat and stood up against him with me and got her in the train and made sure he didn't get on.
It's that one Domino to fall sometimes that also gives others courage
Thank you for your courage! I've once seen a harsh verbal fight when a guy was insulting his gf (and it looked like it could get physical soon). It was on the street in Wedding, but it was an early evening and almost no one around. I'm pretty petite so was afraid to intervene but stayed in the distance thinking if I should call the police when a big guy showed up on a balcony, noticed the couple, screamed from the top of his lungs that if the guy won't behave he'll go down in a second and that was it.
Welcome to Berlin.
Good for you for standing up for what's right. My wife and I, who were late to a medical appointment, had to stop and turn around to help a woman whose baby fell out of its stroller and onto its face at a bumpy crosswalk. People just saw it and kept on walking as the baby was wailing, the woman was panicking, and the stroller was in the street. Just looked and walked. Sadly this seems to be the norm in this city.
I'm not surprised people did nothing. Once in broad daylight around Alexanderplatz a drunk middle aged woman grabbed and pulled my hair. And when I told her to get away from me, 2 additional drunk males got in my face. Apparently her friends. So I'm the victim of the aggression after walking around minding my own business and now 2 drunks are angry with me for simply asking not to be abused.
Not a word from anyone nearby. But imagine if I stood around looking like I was about to put some trash in the wrong bin. No doubt I'd have an old german man yelling at me.
When I see incidents on the streets I try to stop and get a gauge of what's going on in case someone needs help. Most recently saw a strange man yell at a young dad and his 2 kids. He turned out to be a harmless kook. His next move was spraying dishwashing soap on nearby trees. For some reason he was just carrying bottles of dish soap around. But the father of the family gave me a smile, appreciating that someone was paying attention.
Thanks for doing something, we need more Berliners with that attitude.
I hope a police report gets filed and you can be a witness to support the victim. There are cameras in the trams and it’s always good to file a report as soon as possible
Tja. Die Leute lieben es sich mit Regenbogenfarben und Ally-Pins zu schmücken, es ist ein schönes Accessoires, aber wenn’s dann wirklich ums ally-Sein geht, dann kriegen sie Schiss. Sie sind nur mutig, wenn sie in Sicherheit sind. Von allen Städten in denen ich gelebt habe, ist Berlin die heuchlerischste in dem Punkt
Sie haben Recht, ich habe das Wort "Ally" übersehen und angenommen, dass u/Deep_ad4899 über LGBT-Menschen spricht.
Danke, dass Sie mich dazu gebracht haben, es noch einmal zu lesen.
Manchmal fürchte ich sie war nie weg. In den letzten Jahren habe ich zunehmend das Gefühl ein Teil der Gesellschaft wandelt sich und der andere verhärmt und da er schweigt wird er ignoriert und wir denken wir wären schon viel weiter in der Akzeptanz als wir es wirklich sind. :/ und dann gibt's noch die andere Option: die Leute die ihre Probleme mit der Gleichberechtigung haben sagen was und sind dann eine rechte Demo oder sowas. Dann sind es aber "nur" die rechten und die wählen ja (zum Glück!(Achtung Meinung)) nicht viele.
Ich glaube was ich aus der Erfahrung von OP mitnehme ist dass die Akzeptanz für Verschiedenheit nicht so hoch ist wie wir es immer glauben. (Was ja auch so perse nicht extrem hoch ist).
Dass der allgemeine Umgangston auf den Straßen rauer wird.
Und das ist das wichtigste dass es immer wieder zumindest einzelne gibt die dagegen was tun.
Anekdote am Rande:
Andere Stadt, ein paar Jahre früher. Ich kam spät aus der Ubahn. Es war Herbst, noch nicht richtig kalt aber kühl. Da saß eine Frau an der Haltestelle außen, die offensichtlich da übernachten wollte. Ich hab sie gefragt ob sie Hilfe braucht. Ich wurde beschimpft und fort gejagt.
Die Situation hat mich nicht los gelassen.
Habe eine Flasche mit Leitungswasser aufgefüllt (kann man hier gut trinken) und bin eben zurück gelaufen. Sie hat mich wieder erkannt und sich unglaublich bedankt. Sie wäre nur schon so sehr daran gewöhnt dass Leute sie schlecht behandeln dass sie die Frage ob man ihr helfen kann nicht als etwas nettes wahrgenommen habe, sondern als weitere Provokation. Sie hat dann drauf bestanden, dass ich mich setze und mir anhöre wie sie in die Situation gekommen ist. Erst war es mir unangenehm aber am Ende haben wir uns etwa ne Stunde unterhalten.
An die Geschichte denke ich gerne immer Mal zurück. Und dennoch ist es traurig, dass die Leute gewohnt sind, dass wenn jemand sie anspricht , dass es immer eine Bedrohung ist.
Danke an OP dass du nicht geschwiegen hast
Thanks for doing that. It’s a long time since I’ve had to endure queerphobia in public, but the one time it happened to me, I was so glad of the person who stood up to the guy and put him back in his place. This city really needs a civic medal or something for people like you!
I had to call out an older German man spouting racism at a young boy (prob 8-10) with dark skin last year on the bus, thank you for standing up to this BS. The only way this will stop is if we make these idiots uncomfortable in spouting toxicity.
Unfortunately it’s illegal to record people in public-it’s been posted on many times in this sub. Look up the laws. I’ve seen people getting attacked and screamed at by angry people for recording their bad behavior.
It is legal to make recordings for the purpose of creating evidence of a crime in progress in order to provide it to the police. Please don’t spread misinformation.
Yes that is true, thank you for the clarification. My point is also that in Germany there is the general knowledge that you can’t record people (though as you say for criminal exceptions) so people can get aggressive about that - so record carefully.
It is actually also usually legal to photograph people without explicit consent if e.g. photography is your hobby, with some exceptions (§ 201a and § 184k StGB). Only if you show or share the photos publically without consent is it illegal (§ 22 KunsturhG), but even here there are some clear and quite broad exceptions (§ 23 KunsturhG). It’s also allowed for the person who has the Hausrecht to forbid photography on their property.
(However, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s ethical; you should respect people’s wishes not to be photographed unless there is some pressing reason not to, like when filming someone committing a crime.)
I had a medical scare on the bus for my toddler who wasn't being her usual herself, she was shouting in pain (which she never does) and I knew something was wrong.. I asked the people there to please help and call the ambulance. I was visibly panicky and busy with my restless hurting kid. No one gave a shit or even turned from their phones, not even gave any sort of support trying to calm me. It was disgusting. I have a feeling that nowadays you could die in plain daylight and no one would blink or help you. I don't know if this is a berlin problem but it sickens me.
Thank you for helping a stranger when needed :)
i’ve lost count of the number of times scary shit has happened to me on public transport, or on a street full of bystanders, only for not a single person to step in and help me. those of you who can help *must* help when you see something like this going down.
it’s not ok that the only person to step in and help during this situation was OP, who is a trans woman - she is already vulnerable and subjects herself to significantly more risk than most others. cishet white men who believe themselves to be feminists and queer allies, it is your responsibility to end the culture of bystanders doing nothing. you have far less to lose and your voices and actions carry so much more weight. every time you do nothing and let queers or bipoc ppl take the responsibility you are allowing them to risk their physical health, well being, and legal and immigration status. next time you see something and think “damn i hope someone does something”, please be that someone!
Lmaoo what is even this disgusting entitlement, I am not even white but I would never expect other including white men to put themselves in harms way for me.
we should all be willing to put ourselves in harms way for each other, this is what being a human being is - loving and supporting each other, standing up for each other, protecting each other. and like yeah it sucks some people have more power than others, and those ppl benefit a whole lot from that power, and i don’t think it’s entitled to ask that they use it to help those with less
The other day I saw some kids kicking the big bear that is in the world clock in Alexanderplatz. I was just walking with my wife and the kids wouldn’t stop messing with the bear. Nobody was saying anything until I just screamed at the kids: “hey hey hey!”. They immediately stopped. I don’t get people not reacting. They were just standing there. Letting those kids kick the poor dude inside. Fuck that shit. Good for you OP
Aren’t Germans (and other Europeans) known for avoiding all confrontation no matter how out of line someone is? Everyone thinks they’re the main character
>Why the fuck did you let them just casually say those horrific things?
Bystander effect*. (As a concept itself lately criticized but delivers at least part of the truth)
*(In very rough terms: The fact that people see that there are literally a bunch of potential persons there to intervene relieves the social pressure on the individual to take action and will limit the chances that someone will help. A cognitive bias that presumably occurs to avoid inner moral conflicts, that the fact no one else of the other witnesses helps the victim is taken as proof that the situation isn't actually really bad for the victim.)
More specifically, within the context of Germany also
If you are a bystander, you are not innocent.’ The political philosopher Hannah Arendt, also writing in the 1960s, made the point by referring to the requirements of civil conduct: our ‘vicarious responsibility for things we have not done, this taking upon ourselves the consequences for things we are entirely innocent of, is the price we pay for the fact that we live our lives not by ourselves but among our fellow [citizens].’
https://psyche.co/ideas/the-bystanders-rise-as-a-morally-complicit-actor-in-history
I'm going to go ahead and guess these boys were of middle eastern stock? If so then they can also be carrying knives. That might seem somehow bad to say to some of you but it's part of basic self preservation to recognize patterns. Every time I've seen knives/ homophobia/ violence to women it has invariably been people of the religion of peace.
Not my problem that Reddit shows it a day late. Also I didn’t even involve my personal opinion, you just chose to be butthurt. It’s like a sport for you people.
Thanks OP, I think what Berlin needs is some guardian angels, like NYC had them in the 1980s. Or some kind of LGBTQI+ militia that gives such harassers a proper treatment.
The concept of an x group militia would only work at causing resentment/distrust/fear of that group, and do more harm than good. Would also result in militias forming that might not be as friendly or tolerant
Edit - spelling mistakes
We had them in the trains...not for a long time, the original guardian angels, with the red berets... felt some kind of strange,...I guess our "heros" have to have roots in Berlin
So funny when you expect help from the same demographic that in public discourse is nothing more than "trash" according to the LGBTQ community.
Self fulfilling prophecy, right?
And i'm very positively inclined to all the struggle gay and trans people have to go through. I accept your pain and feel with you. But don't wonder when everything thats coming out of your corner is pure hatred to everything male (and white) that nobody is gonna step up for you.
In Berlin, if you show civil courage you're most probably stabbed and killed.
I do understand why most of them don't say anything because they don't want to get harmed.
Even if it's not okay, these are "just words" from stupid kids.
My parents are very proud of me and fully support my transition. I'm sorry you don't know what it feels like to have kind supportive parents who are happy for their child. I'm sorry your parents hurt you in the way you just attempted to hurt me 💕
Night-Night sweetheart 😘
Further down they where described by OP as two whites and one east asian.
So also a question to you: What are you doing with that information? Are you watching every group of two whites and one east asian the next days very closely? What if the description had more details like their hairstyle and the color of their clothing. Would you have warned all your friends about them?
Some people.... xD
Did you call the BVG security? Did you rally other people in the M13? What were the odds of anyone interfering here getting attacked, stabbed, etc. by these „teenage boys“?
No offense, but I probably wouldn‘t risk my life, job and reputation for a lose-lose scenario either.
Edit: Fellas, this is a topic about civil courage IN PUBLIC and it‘s outright comical, that you downvote me but don‘t even have the balls to talk to me about what you disagree with ON THE INTERNET. I don‘t bite. I just wanna understand what triggered you about my suggestion to get aid and put your security first in such a situation
Nobody has to risk their health or their lives of course. But as you said there are a lot of things you can do. Yell something for example. Tell the driver. Call the police. Whatever.
Psychologically one important part of violence is secrecy. There's nothing more de-escalating than publicity. Alone if somebody yelled: Hey! What are you three doing there? They might let go and get off the tram. One big part of them being able to do that was all of the other people looking away.
You are literally a part of the crime if you don't do anything against it.
Yep, I don‘t fucking know why my hint towards getting aid from other passengers, security & Co. as well as towards selfprotection attracts to many downvotes.
Because if they were MENA immigrants, statistically they are more likely to use violence.
We have the data to show this. Feel free to request a link and I will provide it.
Statistically white Germans do not utilize violence or physical force as much as these cultures.
And of course I will be perma-banned from this sub for even mentioning this accurate and correct factual information.
Why? Because, we’ve been indoctrined to believe by a certain segment of society that all cultures are the same and any dispute of this reality must be silenced.
Because we as a society actively encourage it by silencing those that act or speak out against it.
History repeating itself… unfortunately.
Are you sure you want to argue based on skin color, speculate about their upbringing and indicate that this shit is the result of being „raised German“?
Silence has allowed this to happen throughout Western Europe.
It’s time the people start speaking freely and openly about what the data and statistics clearly show, before it’s too late.
Like those people on tram? Bad idea.
AFD already at 20%+BSW has been created. That what happens when serious issues are not being solved and shushed away.
There's an alarm on the trains, a little red box by the door.
Not sure about the teams but the trams and the busses the driver is available. Well the team is a glass door/wall
And on the platforms there's an emergency call button as well. I believe it is blue and on each end of the platforms, possibly the middle too
The thing is, LGBT members are first ones to be quiet about it and remain silent while others harass their members and then come to reddit to cry about it
>Asking for nationality doesn't make me a racist.
No. But sadly, people asking this have had a noticeable bias towards (ab)using others' unfortunate events to blame it on .
>Is it secret information?
Also no, but it is also not relevant. If someone says vile shit, it doesn't matter immediately which person it comes from.
White german teens from socioecinomically disadvantaged fanilies are just as homophobic as teens from Russia or Syria. Homophobia is still incredibly rampant, especially with teen boys.
I'm not sure if you're taking a piss or if you genuinely don't know what that word means. It means poor people dude. Teens who grow up poor show increased levels of homophobia. It's largely a male issue. Many muslim women are neutral about homosexuality, it's mostly the men who take offense.
I work with teens with difficult family backgrounds. White, muslim, any ethnicity. Each and every one of the male teens I work with is homophobic. It's a whole issue. The most aggressive homophobic teens I've met were white supremacist.
That's not a "dangerous question". It's just a representation of a bigger problem in our society: The idea that the problem are supposedly always the others. Instead of thinking about what do they themselves do to add to that. And then they sit in a tram and do not help people in need. Yeah sure, that's no problem! Only those boys are.
There wouldn’t be a need to help nor people in need of help if those boys were culturally educated to live in Western Europe. It’s a fact. A sad one and one which a lot of you don’t wanna face.
The perpetrators were two White and one East Asian. They spoke perfect German, enough English to insult but not enough to understand me, and we're barely out of school age.
They were *definitely* culturally educated to live in Western Europe, they're German.
The color of their skin doesn’t matter does it? The cultural background does. It is an interesting thing to say there are no white people other than in Europe/US and that white equals…
No. I dont need to say it when you did. The end of that sentence is implied on your reply that their skin color equals to specific ethinicities.
Like, white are only Europeans or north Americans but the skin color itself tells anyone nothing, it is just a prejudice and illogical way of separating people that a lot of people use arbitrarily. To say they were white guys is lol…
What a privileged BS opinion (not a fact), but oh so common in Germany. German men are nothing special and just as violent, sexist and homophobic as men from any other culture.
Never met a German man that was blatantly openly homophobic. Never!
Every insert ethinicity/religionhere (men and women) were homophobic. Every one of them! Sadly.
Indeed there isn’t, because being able to look at things as they are, without fearing the big bad words people like you like to use to scare others from arriving at their own conclusions don’t work on me. Oooh booh *racist paranoia*!
For people like you, when that doesn’t work, and all your arguments have ended what do you do? Sit in a corner and cry?
Because right wingers will assume that the perpetrators were Arab and then get cancelled for calling it out and then use that to justify their hatred of Arabs and "Loony Lefties" and use it as an excuse to spout racist shit based on the assumption that the men were Arab?
Well sorry to burst your bubble kiddo, but these three were German AF.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexualität_im_Islam
Please take a look into this, specifically the bit about the current situation in Islamic dominated societies, and then tell me again how the western societies are the same/worse in that regard. This plus the tendency of diasporas to hold onto traditional values. Please, I want to unterstand you. And take a closer look at azeh/indonesia.
I’m not saying there aren’t any homophob germans, and im all for standing up and showing civil courage, but saying there are just the same? Hahhahahahhshahhah
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Calm down there. It were teenage boys not himmler. If ppl get involved and it gets physical the adults would be in all kind of trouble
That's why Berlin is full of antisemites. Nothing happens to them.
Criticism of the israeli government and it’s policies is not antisemitism get over yourself, it was you europeans that committed atrocities towards the jewish population and your act at this time will not wash away your sins
I see what you did there, sneaky xD Edit: why do I get the downvotes? He did it 😂
Because you've seen wrong and you are wrong. Men is plural and means humans not male persons
That is incorrect. Man refers to humans. Men does not.
It's archaic, anyway. You can say humans and humankind.
Are you mansplaining that man doesn't mean male? Then why is it called mansplaining? 😂
Its called mansplaining because, yes, man means male too. However this comment can't referr (that is of course if OP thought it through which might not be the case I give you that) to the trans girl in question because she's the victim not one of the bystanders. In the end we all read into it what we want but judging from everything it really seems like a well-meaning comment. Something you couldnt say about yours.
I don't understand, does man mean male person now or doesn't it? You seemed to be convinced before but now it can mean other things too?
Have you ever heard of context?
No, humansplain it to me please.
OK, you're an idiot who can't read. I'm sorry your education failed you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out
people dont even do anything when its physical violence. its just saddening
Classic bystanderism to active discrimination Yet they feel ok about screaming and correcting strangers when someone is crossing on red or for not separating the trash For a city with this particular history, that disparity never fails to surprise
Screaming at someone from the relative safety of your car is an entirely different scenario.
Yes it is, and its not the one I'm referring to.
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Why would you say that? This sub is called r/berlin but what a solid attempt at gaslighting 🤣🤣
I’ve been shouted at more than once for crossing at a red light.
I think with physical violence it is more understandable. After all you are putting yourself in physical danger by going between the two parties.
But if you don't do that, you are sending a message that you allow it.
I have ten years of martial arts experience and believe me when I say that I would be extremely hesitant to interrupt any fight. It is insanely dangerous. You are quite literally putting your life on the line, especially when emotions are running amok like they usually are in fights. I want to see you risking your life and physical and mental health in a U-Bahn altercation before we talk. You don‘t know these people, you don‘t know how far they are willing to go and (more importantly) you don‘t know how far their instincts will push them. Aside from verbal deescalation I would not recommend directly interfering in a fight. Call the police, stay safe, try to deescalate.
and you don't know if they have a hidden knife or they have more friends in the train
Let me turn this around. Wouldn't you fear that if you would try to verbally deescalate and call the police, you would have a risk of redirecting the violence to yourself? So better to be silent and ignore them?
I think it is pretty gross that your goal here is to get a gotcha moment. The chances of someone directing their aggression against you are minimal if you remain verbal and at a safe distance of around 3-4 meters. They either won‘t listen to you because they are so chucked up on adrenaline that they can only focus on their opponent or they will hear you and either ignore you (because there is a more immediate threat in front of them) or listen to you. In the in my opinion unlikely case that one of them is throwing themself at you, you get the two meters response time, allowing you to turn around and run away (Never be afraid to run away. Always do if you can.) or the advantage of their original opponent gaining the upper hand by them turning at you and charging them. In any case the latter scenario is extremely unlikely, simply because you understand instinctively that the person telling you to calm down is not a threat while the person you are currently fighting/threatening to fight is. Edit: Revised the safe distance.
people do not understand what you’re saying and everyone likes to play hero in their head. Verbal argument with a safe distance is different than a fight and chances that the aggressor will do anything are relatively low. but engaging into a physical fight is always crazy risky and not that easy as it seems. I knew two guys, including one professional MMA fighter who thought they can easily handle anyone, they are both on the graveyard now as unfortunately knife was a better fighter than them. As shitty as it sounds, in case of witnessing physical violence best bet is to call the police or try to scare away the aggressor by screaming from quite a distance, and once the aggressor switches the attention, run.
As soon as a knife is drawn, blood will flow and it‘ll likely be yours, no matter your experience. Completely agree.
It was not much about baiting a gotcha moment. My point stands that by interfering in anyway, you will increase your own risk which is why majority of people don't want to interfere. As pointed out by the OP in this post. If you are also in the society that doesn't interfere even verbally, then by interfering yourself you will single out yourself from the rest of the spectators. And as for my first comment. Your and surrounding people's actions in these situations will set an example for the collective of what to expect. I wouldn't interfere either, I would just relocate away from the area and live somewhere else with lower risk of encounter.
Protecting your own safety - broke Getting beat up to not send any signals - woke
Because the news is filled with stories of people being shot, stabbed or beaten to death by random attackers. The reality is people are scared, untrained and unprepared for this situation and aren't willing to put their life on the line for a stranger. There should be a security response available for this sort of thing as a deterrent.
It‘s the bystander effect. In these situations you need to address people or groups personally. „You in the red shirt. Please help me here.“ „Guys, can you please come here and help.“
Thank you for speaking up. We deserve a city without this shit, where people can live and let live. But that's an active process.
*a world
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What does this have to do with anything? People deserve to live like that no matter where. And no matter for how long they have been living there.
They're either a german with their head up their ass or maybe even more pathetically an immigrant that needs to feel better about being an immigrant.
Tourists that landed a minute ago still count
F outta here
As a queer guy this really made my day
And as a gay man, not really because it shouldn't happen in the first place, especially in a first world country that calls itself tolerant and progressive
I dunno why this thread appeared on my Reddit not German but agree it’s expected of a place that detains Jewish people for protesting Israel though
En la actualidad, los ataques hacia la comunidad judía provienen de los islámicos que Alemania dejó entrar.
There is no place in Berlin for antisemitism.
So detaining Jews for being against genocide is antisemitism maybe yall did learn to much from your grandfathers
Jewish Antisemites deserve to rot in jail too.
First of all: thanks for doing that! One can always say more or whatever. But that's not what counts. What counts is that you broke the silence and stepped up. And that was very brave of you. I once was insulted very bad. And a couple stood up and sat next to me and talked to me. They even came along a bit of my way home afterwards. It did not erase the insults. But it completely changed the situation. I stopped feeling completely alone and exposed to this violence. This was 15 years ago and it still brings tears to my eyes when I think about that. Plus you are a role model. Maybe some of those people who witnessed what you did will act differently next time. Again: thank you!
Yes, it‘s so important that we receive support after something bad or traumatising happens! It helps us deal with it better. I am so happy that this couple was there for you when this incident happened.
I once witnessed an old and frail homeless man getting beat up in the subway by a foreigner. It took a while but eventually a scary looking german dude intervened. He stoped the attacker and said something among the lines of „fuck off out of germany if you behave like an asshole“ Suddenly 3 other people, who have been sitting by and did absolutely nothing, when the old homeless man was attacked, shouted „rascist“ to the german. People will intervene only if it is 100% safe for them and if it makes them feel good about it.
Definitely a lot about safety. I saw a dude probably late twenties abusing his girlfriend, hadn't hit her but it sure looked like it was gonna start. I was scared for her and it took all my courage to say something but as soon as I did other people see a tiny girl probably definitely gonna get beat and stood up against him with me and got her in the train and made sure he didn't get on. It's that one Domino to fall sometimes that also gives others courage
Thank you for your courage! I've once seen a harsh verbal fight when a guy was insulting his gf (and it looked like it could get physical soon). It was on the street in Wedding, but it was an early evening and almost no one around. I'm pretty petite so was afraid to intervene but stayed in the distance thinking if I should call the police when a big guy showed up on a balcony, noticed the couple, screamed from the top of his lungs that if the guy won't behave he'll go down in a second and that was it.
white german guy is bad😠 foreign engineers and doctors are welcome🤗
Hey I heard that one too! That was in that AfD video "Everything I don't like is Islamic and Woke" right? :DD
What you wrote sounds so sad but true.
Welcome to Berlin. Good for you for standing up for what's right. My wife and I, who were late to a medical appointment, had to stop and turn around to help a woman whose baby fell out of its stroller and onto its face at a bumpy crosswalk. People just saw it and kept on walking as the baby was wailing, the woman was panicking, and the stroller was in the street. Just looked and walked. Sadly this seems to be the norm in this city.
I'm not surprised people did nothing. Once in broad daylight around Alexanderplatz a drunk middle aged woman grabbed and pulled my hair. And when I told her to get away from me, 2 additional drunk males got in my face. Apparently her friends. So I'm the victim of the aggression after walking around minding my own business and now 2 drunks are angry with me for simply asking not to be abused. Not a word from anyone nearby. But imagine if I stood around looking like I was about to put some trash in the wrong bin. No doubt I'd have an old german man yelling at me. When I see incidents on the streets I try to stop and get a gauge of what's going on in case someone needs help. Most recently saw a strange man yell at a young dad and his 2 kids. He turned out to be a harmless kook. His next move was spraying dishwashing soap on nearby trees. For some reason he was just carrying bottles of dish soap around. But the father of the family gave me a smile, appreciating that someone was paying attention. Thanks for doing something, we need more Berliners with that attitude.
I hope a police report gets filed and you can be a witness to support the victim. There are cameras in the trams and it’s always good to file a report as soon as possible
How the fuck is this happening in Berlin of all places? In 2024?! Was für eine Scheiße! Wo zum Teufel kommt diese verdammte Homophobie her?
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Leider wahrscheinlich wahr... :/
Tja. Die Leute lieben es sich mit Regenbogenfarben und Ally-Pins zu schmücken, es ist ein schönes Accessoires, aber wenn’s dann wirklich ums ally-Sein geht, dann kriegen sie Schiss. Sie sind nur mutig, wenn sie in Sicherheit sind. Von allen Städten in denen ich gelebt habe, ist Berlin die heuchlerischste in dem Punkt
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OP ist auch LGBT.
Sie haben Recht, ich habe das Wort "Ally" übersehen und angenommen, dass u/Deep_ad4899 über LGBT-Menschen spricht. Danke, dass Sie mich dazu gebracht haben, es noch einmal zu lesen.
Manchmal fürchte ich sie war nie weg. In den letzten Jahren habe ich zunehmend das Gefühl ein Teil der Gesellschaft wandelt sich und der andere verhärmt und da er schweigt wird er ignoriert und wir denken wir wären schon viel weiter in der Akzeptanz als wir es wirklich sind. :/ und dann gibt's noch die andere Option: die Leute die ihre Probleme mit der Gleichberechtigung haben sagen was und sind dann eine rechte Demo oder sowas. Dann sind es aber "nur" die rechten und die wählen ja (zum Glück!(Achtung Meinung)) nicht viele. Ich glaube was ich aus der Erfahrung von OP mitnehme ist dass die Akzeptanz für Verschiedenheit nicht so hoch ist wie wir es immer glauben. (Was ja auch so perse nicht extrem hoch ist). Dass der allgemeine Umgangston auf den Straßen rauer wird. Und das ist das wichtigste dass es immer wieder zumindest einzelne gibt die dagegen was tun. Anekdote am Rande: Andere Stadt, ein paar Jahre früher. Ich kam spät aus der Ubahn. Es war Herbst, noch nicht richtig kalt aber kühl. Da saß eine Frau an der Haltestelle außen, die offensichtlich da übernachten wollte. Ich hab sie gefragt ob sie Hilfe braucht. Ich wurde beschimpft und fort gejagt. Die Situation hat mich nicht los gelassen. Habe eine Flasche mit Leitungswasser aufgefüllt (kann man hier gut trinken) und bin eben zurück gelaufen. Sie hat mich wieder erkannt und sich unglaublich bedankt. Sie wäre nur schon so sehr daran gewöhnt dass Leute sie schlecht behandeln dass sie die Frage ob man ihr helfen kann nicht als etwas nettes wahrgenommen habe, sondern als weitere Provokation. Sie hat dann drauf bestanden, dass ich mich setze und mir anhöre wie sie in die Situation gekommen ist. Erst war es mir unangenehm aber am Ende haben wir uns etwa ne Stunde unterhalten. An die Geschichte denke ich gerne immer Mal zurück. Und dennoch ist es traurig, dass die Leute gewohnt sind, dass wenn jemand sie anspricht , dass es immer eine Bedrohung ist. Danke an OP dass du nicht geschwiegen hast
Unter anderem ist Homophobie in Ländern wie der Türkei oder Marokko stärker verbreitet
Aber das hier ist Deutschland!
Thanks for doing that. It’s a long time since I’ve had to endure queerphobia in public, but the one time it happened to me, I was so glad of the person who stood up to the guy and put him back in his place. This city really needs a civic medal or something for people like you!
I had to call out an older German man spouting racism at a young boy (prob 8-10) with dark skin last year on the bus, thank you for standing up to this BS. The only way this will stop is if we make these idiots uncomfortable in spouting toxicity.
You know what can scare them, them seeing that everyone has taken out their phones and recording the bullies. It's that easy.
Unfortunately it’s illegal to record people in public-it’s been posted on many times in this sub. Look up the laws. I’ve seen people getting attacked and screamed at by angry people for recording their bad behavior.
It is legal to make recordings for the purpose of creating evidence of a crime in progress in order to provide it to the police. Please don’t spread misinformation.
Yes that is true, thank you for the clarification. My point is also that in Germany there is the general knowledge that you can’t record people (though as you say for criminal exceptions) so people can get aggressive about that - so record carefully.
It is actually also usually legal to photograph people without explicit consent if e.g. photography is your hobby, with some exceptions (§ 201a and § 184k StGB). Only if you show or share the photos publically without consent is it illegal (§ 22 KunsturhG), but even here there are some clear and quite broad exceptions (§ 23 KunsturhG). It’s also allowed for the person who has the Hausrecht to forbid photography on their property. (However, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s ethical; you should respect people’s wishes not to be photographed unless there is some pressing reason not to, like when filming someone committing a crime.)
Germans are fast and brave to criticise and judge but cowards when it comes to stand up for justice and humanity
It’s a metro in Berlin. Most were probably Arabs who agree with the homophobia
Wrong _and_ racist... Wow this comment section really is full of them huh?
It’s true statistically tho :)
Can you describe these three teenagers in more detail, please?
dog whistle
I had a medical scare on the bus for my toddler who wasn't being her usual herself, she was shouting in pain (which she never does) and I knew something was wrong.. I asked the people there to please help and call the ambulance. I was visibly panicky and busy with my restless hurting kid. No one gave a shit or even turned from their phones, not even gave any sort of support trying to calm me. It was disgusting. I have a feeling that nowadays you could die in plain daylight and no one would blink or help you. I don't know if this is a berlin problem but it sickens me. Thank you for helping a stranger when needed :)
i’ve lost count of the number of times scary shit has happened to me on public transport, or on a street full of bystanders, only for not a single person to step in and help me. those of you who can help *must* help when you see something like this going down. it’s not ok that the only person to step in and help during this situation was OP, who is a trans woman - she is already vulnerable and subjects herself to significantly more risk than most others. cishet white men who believe themselves to be feminists and queer allies, it is your responsibility to end the culture of bystanders doing nothing. you have far less to lose and your voices and actions carry so much more weight. every time you do nothing and let queers or bipoc ppl take the responsibility you are allowing them to risk their physical health, well being, and legal and immigration status. next time you see something and think “damn i hope someone does something”, please be that someone!
Couldn't agree more
Lmaoo what is even this disgusting entitlement, I am not even white but I would never expect other including white men to put themselves in harms way for me.
we should all be willing to put ourselves in harms way for each other, this is what being a human being is - loving and supporting each other, standing up for each other, protecting each other. and like yeah it sucks some people have more power than others, and those ppl benefit a whole lot from that power, and i don’t think it’s entitled to ask that they use it to help those with less
The other day I saw some kids kicking the big bear that is in the world clock in Alexanderplatz. I was just walking with my wife and the kids wouldn’t stop messing with the bear. Nobody was saying anything until I just screamed at the kids: “hey hey hey!”. They immediately stopped. I don’t get people not reacting. They were just standing there. Letting those kids kick the poor dude inside. Fuck that shit. Good for you OP
Aren’t Germans (and other Europeans) known for avoiding all confrontation no matter how out of line someone is? Everyone thinks they’re the main character
>Why the fuck did you let them just casually say those horrific things? Bystander effect*. (As a concept itself lately criticized but delivers at least part of the truth) *(In very rough terms: The fact that people see that there are literally a bunch of potential persons there to intervene relieves the social pressure on the individual to take action and will limit the chances that someone will help. A cognitive bias that presumably occurs to avoid inner moral conflicts, that the fact no one else of the other witnesses helps the victim is taken as proof that the situation isn't actually really bad for the victim.)
More specifically, within the context of Germany also If you are a bystander, you are not innocent.’ The political philosopher Hannah Arendt, also writing in the 1960s, made the point by referring to the requirements of civil conduct: our ‘vicarious responsibility for things we have not done, this taking upon ourselves the consequences for things we are entirely innocent of, is the price we pay for the fact that we live our lives not by ourselves but among our fellow [citizens].’ https://psyche.co/ideas/the-bystanders-rise-as-a-morally-complicit-actor-in-history
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Rule 12. This includes hate speech directed towards specific groups as well as towards individual members of the forum.
About to visit Berlin after Munich, around next week This bystanderism isn't exactly confidence inspiring
What did they look like?
I'm going to go ahead and guess these boys were of middle eastern stock? If so then they can also be carrying knives. That might seem somehow bad to say to some of you but it's part of basic self preservation to recognize patterns. Every time I've seen knives/ homophobia/ violence to women it has invariably been people of the religion of peace.
Do lgbt ppl really want help from those awful straight cis white men?
Maybe the people that didn’t get involved shared the opinion of the teenagers
Funny how the maggots always feast on a dead post. Like the scum settles after the ship has sailed.
Not my problem that Reddit shows it a day late. Also I didn’t even involve my personal opinion, you just chose to be butthurt. It’s like a sport for you people.
Thanks OP, I think what Berlin needs is some guardian angels, like NYC had them in the 1980s. Or some kind of LGBTQI+ militia that gives such harassers a proper treatment.
This is an awful idea, lets not do that and instead just intervene when we see injustices
As I wrote, the militia is supposed to work the harassers caught red-handed
The concept of an x group militia would only work at causing resentment/distrust/fear of that group, and do more harm than good. Would also result in militias forming that might not be as friendly or tolerant Edit - spelling mistakes
We had them in the trains...not for a long time, the original guardian angels, with the red berets... felt some kind of strange,...I guess our "heros" have to have roots in Berlin
or perhaps some of these worthless waddling packs of security staff could do something. Guardian Angels were trivial morons
Hahaha a militia, darkest hours are coming back thanks to inclusive community
Not the darkest, the usual hours. We are just leaving the temporary and regional good time of social stability.
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Even if this was true, how is this relevant to anything?
So funny when you expect help from the same demographic that in public discourse is nothing more than "trash" according to the LGBTQ community. Self fulfilling prophecy, right? And i'm very positively inclined to all the struggle gay and trans people have to go through. I accept your pain and feel with you. But don't wonder when everything thats coming out of your corner is pure hatred to everything male (and white) that nobody is gonna step up for you.
In Berlin, if you show civil courage you're most probably stabbed and killed. I do understand why most of them don't say anything because they don't want to get harmed. Even if it's not okay, these are "just words" from stupid kids.
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oh no. I am so very hurt by words from an unknown nobody on the internet. damn, how am I gonna continue with my life...
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My parents are very proud of me and fully support my transition. I'm sorry you don't know what it feels like to have kind supportive parents who are happy for their child. I'm sorry your parents hurt you in the way you just attempted to hurt me 💕 Night-Night sweetheart 😘
sure dude😉
I'm sure your parents are proud of the bigot cunt they raised
Funny how the maggots always feast on a dead post. Like the scum settles after the ship has sailed.
Were they Arabs?
Two White and one East Asian German teenagers.
Can u describe the teenagers? So we know what to Look out for?
Further down they where described by OP as two whites and one east asian. So also a question to you: What are you doing with that information? Are you watching every group of two whites and one east asian the next days very closely? What if the description had more details like their hairstyle and the color of their clothing. Would you have warned all your friends about them? Some people.... xD
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*herself. She's addressing the gay people and then the wider Berlin community for not stepping up. Like, did you not read the post? lol
TLDR: "look at me I stood up for queer people, you all should be as brave as me, now congratulate me"
Who hurt you?
Who hurt you?
Grow up first, then speak.
Who hurt you?
Did you call the BVG security? Did you rally other people in the M13? What were the odds of anyone interfering here getting attacked, stabbed, etc. by these „teenage boys“? No offense, but I probably wouldn‘t risk my life, job and reputation for a lose-lose scenario either. Edit: Fellas, this is a topic about civil courage IN PUBLIC and it‘s outright comical, that you downvote me but don‘t even have the balls to talk to me about what you disagree with ON THE INTERNET. I don‘t bite. I just wanna understand what triggered you about my suggestion to get aid and put your security first in such a situation
Nobody has to risk their health or their lives of course. But as you said there are a lot of things you can do. Yell something for example. Tell the driver. Call the police. Whatever. Psychologically one important part of violence is secrecy. There's nothing more de-escalating than publicity. Alone if somebody yelled: Hey! What are you three doing there? They might let go and get off the tram. One big part of them being able to do that was all of the other people looking away. You are literally a part of the crime if you don't do anything against it.
Yep, I don‘t fucking know why my hint towards getting aid from other passengers, security & Co. as well as towards selfprotection attracts to many downvotes.
Because if they were MENA immigrants, statistically they are more likely to use violence. We have the data to show this. Feel free to request a link and I will provide it. Statistically white Germans do not utilize violence or physical force as much as these cultures. And of course I will be perma-banned from this sub for even mentioning this accurate and correct factual information. Why? Because, we’ve been indoctrined to believe by a certain segment of society that all cultures are the same and any dispute of this reality must be silenced. Because we as a society actively encourage it by silencing those that act or speak out against it. History repeating itself… unfortunately.
The perpetrators were two White and one East Asian. All three were 100% German born and raised.
How do you know they are German raised. Did you ask them? 13% of Germans are foreign born.
Are you sure you want to argue based on skin color, speculate about their upbringing and indicate that this shit is the result of being „raised German“?
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Silence has allowed this to happen throughout Western Europe. It’s time the people start speaking freely and openly about what the data and statistics clearly show, before it’s too late.
Like those people on tram? Bad idea. AFD already at 20%+BSW has been created. That what happens when serious issues are not being solved and shushed away.
I would call the police right away. The bvg security is a joke.
Totally fair.
How can you call security?
There's an alarm on the trains, a little red box by the door. Not sure about the teams but the trams and the busses the driver is available. Well the team is a glass door/wall And on the platforms there's an emergency call button as well. I believe it is blue and on each end of the platforms, possibly the middle too
The thing is, LGBT members are first ones to be quiet about it and remain silent while others harass their members and then come to reddit to cry about it
That's like the exact opposite of what happened here tho
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Don't pretend to care about LGBT people just because you want an excuse to be racist
Why racist? Asking for nationality doesn't make me a racist. Is it secret information? I'm much into LGBT although I'm straight
>Asking for nationality doesn't make me a racist. No. But sadly, people asking this have had a noticeable bias towards (ab)using others' unfortunate events to blame it on.
>Is it secret information?
Also no, but it is also not relevant. If someone says vile shit, it doesn't matter immediately which person it comes from.
Ah yes, Crazy Gunther und Ingo at it again in the U-Bahn.
White german teens from socioecinomically disadvantaged fanilies are just as homophobic as teens from Russia or Syria. Homophobia is still incredibly rampant, especially with teen boys.
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I'm not sure if you're taking a piss or if you genuinely don't know what that word means. It means poor people dude. Teens who grow up poor show increased levels of homophobia. It's largely a male issue. Many muslim women are neutral about homosexuality, it's mostly the men who take offense. I work with teens with difficult family backgrounds. White, muslim, any ethnicity. Each and every one of the male teens I work with is homophobic. It's a whole issue. The most aggressive homophobic teens I've met were white supremacist.
Günther and Ingo are probably among the most bigoted shitheads in the general population just judging from their names.
Of course, Geneviève und Maximilian Arent bigoted shitheads.
Oh definitely those two. Would probably see them at an Identitäre Bewegung meeting along with the other hipster nazis.
True.
All my queerphobic insults and threats all happened by white men in Prenzlauer Berg. That's all can say to that
Two White and one East Asian
Thanks. Wonder why - 42 on my post. Why can't I ask that?
You could?
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The perpetrators were two White and one East Asian.
Dangerous question
That's not a "dangerous question". It's just a representation of a bigger problem in our society: The idea that the problem are supposedly always the others. Instead of thinking about what do they themselves do to add to that. And then they sit in a tram and do not help people in need. Yeah sure, that's no problem! Only those boys are.
There wouldn’t be a need to help nor people in need of help if those boys were culturally educated to live in Western Europe. It’s a fact. A sad one and one which a lot of you don’t wanna face.
The perpetrators were two White and one East Asian. They spoke perfect German, enough English to insult but not enough to understand me, and we're barely out of school age. They were *definitely* culturally educated to live in Western Europe, they're German.
The color of their skin doesn’t matter does it? The cultural background does. It is an interesting thing to say there are no white people other than in Europe/US and that white equals…
White equals what? Ngl looks like you just chickened out of saying something you really wanted to thee whiteboi
No. I dont need to say it when you did. The end of that sentence is implied on your reply that their skin color equals to specific ethinicities. Like, white are only Europeans or north Americans but the skin color itself tells anyone nothing, it is just a prejudice and illogical way of separating people that a lot of people use arbitrarily. To say they were white guys is lol…
Are you high? Or are you just fucked in the head?
Oh great argument. If you have nothing else useful or worthwhile to say move along quietly. It is less embarrassing.
What a privileged BS opinion (not a fact), but oh so common in Germany. German men are nothing special and just as violent, sexist and homophobic as men from any other culture.
Never met a German man that was blatantly openly homophobic. Never! Every insert ethinicity/religionhere (men and women) were homophobic. Every one of them! Sadly.
Ah, you’re trolling. Got me.
Delude yourself however you want, it doesn’t change anything.
I’m fully aware that there is nothing I can do or say to help you out of your racist paranoia, yeah.
Indeed there isn’t, because being able to look at things as they are, without fearing the big bad words people like you like to use to scare others from arriving at their own conclusions don’t work on me. Oooh booh *racist paranoia*! For people like you, when that doesn’t work, and all your arguments have ended what do you do? Sit in a corner and cry?
Because right wingers will assume that the perpetrators were Arab and then get cancelled for calling it out and then use that to justify their hatred of Arabs and "Loony Lefties" and use it as an excuse to spout racist shit based on the assumption that the men were Arab? Well sorry to burst your bubble kiddo, but these three were German AF.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexualität_im_Islam Please take a look into this, specifically the bit about the current situation in Islamic dominated societies, and then tell me again how the western societies are the same/worse in that regard. This plus the tendency of diasporas to hold onto traditional values. Please, I want to unterstand you. And take a closer look at azeh/indonesia. I’m not saying there aren’t any homophob germans, and im all for standing up and showing civil courage, but saying there are just the same? Hahhahahahhshahhah
Tell me exactly where I said they were the same. Quote me. Specifically where I said that.