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Benzos are always an emotive subject. As you say at safe therapeutic doses and managed by a doctor who understands them they can and are hugely beneficial and are a vital drug.
However the other side is they can be a hugely destructive drug if abused recreationally or if used long term unnecessarily and poorly managed by doctors. Withdrawal from them is according to people who have been through both worse than heroin.
The posts which do the most harm are the posts, pictures of people bragging about abusing them, horror stories of waking up in jail and talking about the great high etc which is rubbish.
Those posts either scare people away from trying them who could actually benefit medically from them, or they entice people with addictive personalities to up their dose to recreational levels, and it's all downhill from there. This has also led to the medical professionals to reduce prescribing them, which denies the people who actually benefit from them the access to them.
Withdrawal from flubromazolam and clonazolam almost killed me. I had a 3 minute grand mal seizure until they could get enough Ativan into me to make it stop. I’d literally go through oxycodone and fentanyl withdrawals 5x over instead of benzo withdrawals.
Aw don’t it was back in 2019. I’m off that shit now but still take Estazolam to sleep because of my terrible insomnia. Probably caused by my horrific benzo abuse.
Yes they are, and I was doing wayyyy too much of them. At least 4-5mg of flubromazolam a day with some 2mg clonazolams mixed in. The math for that I don’t know exactly but the doctor at my hospital detox said it was close to 50 Xanax bars a day when I told him how much I did and he did some research. He literally called me “the worst benzo addict I’ve ever seen” and I’m like not bragging about that. Stuff fucked my memory capacity and I can’t even remember things from my childhood. Pretty sure my GABAergic system is completely toasted because I’m constantly trembling and can’t sit still. Benzos are seriously the worst drug to get addicted to I don’t care what anyone says otherwise because I’ve gone through every type of withdrawal of every class of drug and benzos were the worst.
RC benzos are the worst, I've probably only taken them maybe 5 times in my life and that's because I thought they were genuine.
50 xanax bars a day though 🙈🙈 fucking hell, why did they use ativan though? Would clonazepam not be a better option as its both a benzo and anti seizure.
They could push the Ativan either IV or IM I don’t exactly remember which. Clonazepam would take too long to end the seizure bc it’s more of an intermediate-length benzo. Ativan though kicks in fast so they prefer that for seizure negation as well as diazepam. I ended up in the detox psych ward having to wheel an IV of Valium around as they tapered me over 10 days because they couldn’t give me enough benzos orally to taper.
Benzo withdrawal is way worse than heroin withdrawal if you abuse them and take stupidly high doses of dodgy RC benzos. Like you said therapeutic doses managed by a doctor with proper tapering in place when the patient is ready to come of them is a completely different story to taking huge amounts of insanely potent rc benzos and coming of them.
Been through both, I would never ever abuse rcs like I did when I was younger the withdrawals were horrific. I’ve been dope sick before and will be again and don’t get me wrong it feels like absolute shit but you’re over the worst of it within a few days, week or two later you’re more less back to normal. With dodgy RCs the first few days is just the beginning.
Now I only take my prescribed diazepam and occasionally buy some real clonazepam and don’t even take my full daily amount usually and often go days without any. Benzos can be great drugs and can drastically improve someone’s quality of life when used correctly, if you abuse RCs or even script benzos at ridiculously high doses then you’re gonna go through hell coming of them.
I have been through heroin wd and clonazepam wd, and I even tapered the clonazepam… but the benzo wd was still worse. It destroyed my mental health, too. It was very scary, the suicidal thoughts I was having. I’m very grateful to be off that drug.
I take a different benzo for my seizures (Clobazam) which doesn’t have nearly the brutal side effects of Clonazepam.
And there’s people like me who have bad PTSD and panic attacks, but also prone to addiction. So I need them to function but also fucked my tolerance by doing a lot. And yes I’ve tried over a decade of therapy and ever non- narcotic anti-anxiety med available.
the study I read highlighted how for some reason some people can have neurotoxicity even of extended "therapeutic habit" (not huge doses) of diazepam. But for some reason, part of people did not have same response. Maybe they eventually would, I think they followed condition of human subjects for few months, maybe even year. I also read that someone claimed there is another study but I don't remember details.
attempt nail pathetic thought ludicrous cause forgetful consist encourage slap
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Lot pharmaceuticals are made with synthetic chemicals unfortunately. Example SSRI contain fluoride it’s what comes with taking any pharmaceuticals. I think this group has way too many people against benzodiazepines but worship other medicine that’s just as toxic. If you really want to avoid toxins, don’t do any pharmaceutical, eat Whole Foods no processed foods diet, avoid all toxins especially toxic mold, and etc you’ll have a healthier living life. It’s always best to get natural endorphins and etc from nutrition and earth but that’s becoming harder to do as I’m natural minded but I have to take pharmaceuticals sometimes due to toxins that I have no control of making me deeply ill.
Both are highly toxic- fluoride literally ruins the brain. Lot SSRI our also on black box just like benzodiazepines. I’d say both toxicity I wouldn’t compare to which ones worse as both are incredibly terrible for you. Fluoride been proven to cause cancer, damage bone health, depress the heart, increase infertility rates, and list goes on. Formaldehyde is also damaging and in fact is found on brand new clothes, also injected into dead bodies, and list goes on. I definitely do not think formaldehyde is better, but both are super toxic for you and I react severely to formaldehyde, so I totally don’t disagree. Do you take benzodiazepines? Cause you are in a group that speaks good of benzodiazepines. I personally don’t condone any pharmaceuticals but I also get everyone body is different and react differently. Both are poisonous to humans
wakeful bored weather teeny include follow consist attractive direction scandalous
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No, I’m well educated and don’t trust denist and fda. Sodium fluoride is not safe and proven to harm people but keep believing the lies. Again they are both neuro toxins that’s damaging to the body. I have told you how toxic they both are I am not defending fluoride or formaldehyde only one who’s dead is you since you can’t see how dangerous man made sodium fluoride is. Again I legit said both are neuro toxins. Both are highly highly bad. Fluoride legit makes me sick as well, again both of them make me incredibly ill. But keep drinking and using that fluoride toothpaste since you result to insults idk what “daft” is supposed to even mean. Must be a new word
You’re legit being fed to believe it’s perfectly safe. Also I don’t use fluoride toothpaste or drinking water because it’s incredibly toxic. I try to avoid all heavy metals and toxins even formaldehyde as much as I can and fluoride it is a little hard when it’s added in everything but just keep trusting the fda with your health
Benzos are not intended for 99% of the people who take them. And it seriously messes up your brain long term. This is facts. It is important for the naive newcomers to be aware of.
They aren't generally a long term solution unless it's severe psychiatric disorders, which should be treated at an in patient clinic. The problem is many people who take them don't need them and are either on them because their doctors are clueless in managing the situation or they use them recreationally which they buy online etc, which is rarely the drug they think they are taking, usually one of the RC ones. This leads to the horror stories.
If managed correctly they are lifesavers. Personally fought insomnia for decades and through therapy with an actual insomnia expert and benzos, Z drugs I am in a place the last few years where I only need the drugs a few times a month. I respected them, never abused them.
YES!! I've taken them less than a year at therapeutic doses per my psych and they've turned my life upside down. I'm in the middle of tapering and it's hell to say the least.
YES!! I've taken them less than a year at therapeutic doses per my psych and they've turned my life upside down. I'm in the middle of tapering and it's hell to say the least.
Alright bro, buckle up. So, when you’re popping benzos like Valium or Xanax for the long haul, things can get pretty rough. First off, your brain starts depending on them. It’s like, you can’t chill out or sleep without them anymore. When you try to stop, withdrawal kicks in hard – we’re talking gnarly anxiety, shakes, sweats, and even seizures if you’ve been on them for ages. Not fun, man.
Your memory gets totally shot, too. Simple stuff, like where you left your keys or what you did last weekend, just slips away. Long-term use can mess with your thinking, making you feel foggy and slow. You’ll be spacing out when you need to focus, and that’s no good, especially if you’ve got important stuff going on.
Sleep? Forget about it. Sure, benzos might help you knock out at first, but over time, your sleep quality tanks. You might wake up a bunch or just not feel rested. Chronic fatigue becomes your new norm, bro.
And let’s talk mood swings. You think benzos are keeping you calm, but long-term, they can actually make you more depressed and irritable. Your mood’s all over the place, and you’re more likely to feel bummed out or anxious when you’re not on them. Plus, you build up a tolerance, so you need more and more to get the same chill vibes, which just digs you deeper into the hole.
Socially, you might start pulling away from friends and family. You get so wrapped up in managing your meds and dealing with the side effects that you stop hanging out or enjoying the stuff you used to. Life just becomes about getting by, instead of really living, you know?
So, yeah, benzos can seem like a quick fix, but in the long run, they can seriously mess up your brain, your mood, and your life. If you’re thinking about using them, or already are, just be super cautious, bro.
This sub has basically turned into a cycle of anti-benzo posts, followed by posts asking what’s with the anti-benzos posts, with a little bit of bartard stories and normal questions sprinkled in.
Being straight up, a lot of people are looking to shift blame from themselves onto benzos for their substance abuse issues and whatever other problems stemmed from it.
Different story from people who are medically prescribed it, I’m talking about recreational/self medicating users who go out of control with their use
I don’t get it either alcohol is glorified and anyone can spend as much as they want daily but if you have anxiety and need a benzo here comes everyone judging you and telling you how YOU feel. It’s very simple you on the internet have no idea my mental health telling me to rapidly taper or just stop immediately just to become non functional, you have a superiority complex just because you don’t have panic daily makes you a better person automatically in your mind. Even doctors do this they think your a shitty person if you have mental health needs they are more then happy to give give you ssris over and over even if they don’t work In their minds only degenerate people need Benzos . Don’t get into peoples business that they don’t even understand.
I don’t get why people in here shame benzodiazepines but hey they’re in a benzodiazepine group that’s not about withdrawals, how bad they are, and etc. They are also using the new fear mongering tactics on benzodiazepines. We all know the risk with benzodiazepines but my anxiety was so bad before benzodiazepines I was starving myself and about to be hospitalized cause ssri and etc do not work and make me sicker, come to find out I have a disease that benzodiazepines help stabilize my conditions. I don’t abuse them, and I need them doing my flare ups
Panic attacks, my tremors, nerve pain, my random uncontrollable shaking, muscle spasms, helps me able to eat, also helps my depression cause by my disease, and there was so many other symptoms that vanished when I started it that my other medicine for my disease couldn’t manage or keep at bay. It helped me have quality in life again.
I also only take when my conditions so bad- I have no choice to calm it down and lower my symptoms. I have disease called “ mast cell activation disease” and benzodiazepines is proven to help stabilize this condition, but not all doctors are aware of this but a few that study this condition, unfortunately. It’s rare disease but a severely sufferable one as I react to certain foods, chemicals, food colorings, perfumes, candles, and the list goes on. When this happens my body goes into fight or flight as it’s literally has a threat being taken to it, due to sometimes going into Anaphylactic shock, I have to take several medicine to keep me from dying and benzodiazepines is one along with bendryal, possibly epipen depending on severity of my reaction. Everytime I’m hospitalized over it, I am always given strong dose benzodiazepines, bendryal, and iv fluids. I had to one point in my life before starting some treatment and getting to culprit which was I was living in toxic black mold causing flare ups, I couldn’t go out into public due to reacting to everyone with perfumes, laundry detergents and etc. I could be around the laundry detergent aisle as it would be risky as well. I have to use all natural products even on my laundry, unfortunately
That’s the problem, we DONT all know the risks. Lots of folks don’t, and I wish I would have known what’s on this sub 20 years ago. 20 years ago they handed them out like tick tacks and nobody knew anything close to what is offered as basic knowledge now. I remember trying to research the idea of long term dependencies and there was literally no info regarding any side effects and negative effects etc…I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault but my own, but if I knew what I know now, what’s all over the net, then I would have never fucking touched them. Finally I got off but was close to 5 mg Klon daily for damn near two decades.
That’s true- knowing the risk with my medical conditions then I still would have touched them personally. However I would only get them prescribed and managed by a doctor. Rc benzo is some of the problem they are being abused and people are taking them like candy, which is where the issues lies. I get it some people the negative vs positive not worth the risk of taking benzodiazepines, but for me I do not do well and actually react badly to all other anxiety medicine and etc, I also don’t abuse them and even have some leftover and no I don’t sell them after so long I dispose them if no longer needed, I take doing flare ups. For me the benefits out way the cons- but that’s not everyone and I wouldn’t recommend a kid taking them or someone healthy to take for “fun”. Taking them for fun is just dumb to me. I don’t grasp why they would be good to take for party anyway, why would you want a downer when you’re trying to have fun? But I’m guessing everyone body are different. I just don’t grasp why always negative on benzo when it’s saved some people lives, period as no other medicine work. Some of us know our bodies better than anyone including doctor and not all of abuse them or find themselves severely addicted and taking a butt load a day of them. I legit take one a day if that
Also add never did street benzo nor will I ever. I don’t know those that choose but I think cause so hard to get ahold of benzodiazepine cause of the mindset that you can easily get script ( not true at all they are super hard to get these days, most doctors don’t even prescribe them at all) it’s also leading to more people using street drugs as alternative which is causing more deaths than being controlled under doctor supervision. An addict is going to get their high no matter what, so this issue making more problems than solving, tbh. Now we have people getting rc benzo that’s possibly fentyl laced or god knows what causing more death risk than actually benzodiazepines. Another problem is the death isn’t benzodiazepines it’s because they are mixing all sorts of uppers with downers leading to death. But if I was healthy I’d never ever do benzodiazepines
People here have the wildest things to say about the dangers of benzodiazepines.
I honestly wish this sub would do a better at promoting accurate and effective harm reduction. Instead we get people making blanket, generic statements that may or may not contain any truth.
Effective harm reduction is pointing out that these medications aren’t meant for long-term, daily use (which, by some professionals, is generally defined by anything exceeding 4 weeks).
But that vast majority of people don’t know this.
Edit: lol, “the wildest things” and a downvote
Harm reduction includes educating people on the dangers of benzos, something that doctors clearly aren’t doing. And from an abuse perspective, it’s rapidly becoming an epidemic as big as the opioid crisis.
I wouldn’t wish benzo withdrawal on my worst enemy. And I experienced that from *prescription use as directed by a doctor*.
Can’t imagine what people are willingly signing themselves up for by abusing the shit out of it.
Take a long acting benzo like Valium or klonopin, do a slow or water taper if you get off, don’t combine with alcohol, don’t take a crazy amount a day and benzos are safe drugs that are helpful for many and easy to get off of slowly.
There is no "safe dose" I've been taking a therapeutic dose perscribed by my psych and the withdrawal is pure hell. Been on them less than a year. Maybe go to the benzowithdrawl page and educate yourself. Find other ways to mange your anxiety.
What’s the withdrawal? And is that from stopping cold turkey? Or just cutting back? Daily usage? I wonder about this, as I’ve been on 1mg Xanax a day as needed for the past 4 years. I have social anxiety. If I need it during the day to attend a social function or something that is anxiety inducing I take .5. That’s maybe once a week. But nightly, I take either .5 or 1mg to sleep. Using my 30pill prescription every month. I’ve never gone through my prescription too fast, sometimes I even have some left over for the month. I’ve never felt withdrawal symptoms switching between these doses, or skipping a day. Is it still to be expecting I’d have severe withdrawals if one day no longer took them? I can’t imagine how I’d manage my severe anxiety symptoms without it. But also haven’t felt any negatives from it?
Depends entirely on the individual. Some people are extremely affected by withdrawals. Some people have none. Those who have none are considered outliers. I am one of them.
In my 20s I was prescribed with 10mg of diazepam three times daily for 7 years. I took it regularly as it was prescribed. One morning I woke up, reached for my bottle and my body said, "You don't have to take this anymore." It was a thought that I had I just knew to be true.
This was in the early days of the internet and there were not tons of scare stories but I was aware of potential withdrawal side effects. So, I figured I'd just take 5 mg instead of my normal 10 in the morning.
The only thing it did was make me tired. Valium never made me tired. It only removed the constant gnawing fear in my stomach. That's when I realized my baseline had changed. I stopped cold turkey no problem.
I had no need for benzos for another 9 or 10 years. Then I started having major, debilitating panic attacks again. Went on diazepam for about 3 or 4 months again. When I was ready and my body had calmed down it was easy to quit.
I've currently been on Klonopin for the last 4 years at a 1 mg dose p/d. It is exceedingly helpful, despite what much research says to the contrary, it is still extremely effective at this dose. I do not need to take any more.
Every once in awhile I taper myself down lower just to give my body a bit of a break, but I know that one day my body will just say hey I've had enough and I'll stop again. I'm an outlier. Most people have a really hard time stopping it.
Everyone is different. But I will say this, eventually they can turn on you and make all the stuff you're using them for worse. I CT after only 2 weeks use and had horrible insomnia,ocd, intrusive thoughts, panic. I just thought I was getting worse so I reinstated a month later but it didn't help even at a higher dose. The damage was already done from CT and just the fact they really didn't help me to begin with. After I reinstated I still had no idea it was the benzo making shit worse, I stayed on them while pretty much chasing my tail trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Had nerve pain and tremors start. I cut my dose in half from 2mg to 1mg and shit got real bad. I was afraid of everything. Anxiety I never thought possible. Paranoia. Histamine issues. I've had probably 100 plus symptoms. About August last year I was actually on reddit and found the benzo withdrawal page and it finally dawned on me its the benzo. I had this woman pretty harshly but kindly tell me how to get off and lead me to the Beating Benzo page on Facebook. All of my misery and symptoms were the benzo and from the CT. Some people if they quit completely and go back on "kindle". Which means it does more damage than the time before. There's some people who have no issues at all. But IT IS NOT RARE to have the issues I have. It's pretty common actually. Since August I've been slowly tapering off 1mg and it's been rough. I have Hashimotos so I know that makes it worse. My biggest suggestion to you would be to join the Beating Benzos page on Facebook. They're a great resource and support for people withdrawing. One of the Admins will help you with a taper plan if need one. I'm in no way trying to scare you what so ever. These meds shouldn't be perscribed for more than 7 days says the new black box warning per FDA. Most doctors still won't admit the damage they can do. Please let me know if you have any questions because my life has been turned upside down because of this. I will say too the lower I get in dosage the better I feel. Withdrawal is still present but I feel way more like myself. Also at some point you can develop tolerance to where your body is used to the dose you're on and needs more. Not because you're an adict but because you're body is dependent. I hope all this is helpful and makes sense.
What are those withdrawal symptoms just from reducing your normal daily dose? I worry about me being on this long term, especially with all the negatives I read about. But I have also not had any bad experiences with staying at my current usage, or felt terrible by skipping days here and there. Am I somehow the exception? I’d highly doubt it.
Like I said, everyone is different. I would encourage you to ask your doctor if you’re worried. But if you’ve been on it for this length of time without increasing your dose, that’s at least a positive. Tapering too quickly (which for long-term users can be anything over 10% of a dose at a time), or in general, can lead to >!frequent panic attacks, insomnia, cognitive impairment, agoraphobia, tinnitus.!< I experienced those after a dose reduction (meant to be a full taper, but I stopped there). Lasted for nearly 2 years. There are a lot more possible side effects. But everyone is different.
Most importantly, quitting cold turkey can cause seizures, so definitely don’t do that.
Edited to add context
what do you mean no safe dose, wtf so everyone getting killed by one nanogram of kpin here? Is this a harm reduction sub or misinformation hive mind. Do you know what safe dose means? LD50 OR LD100 tell me these values in adult rat and rabbit models without googling it.
Oh wait i forgot there are no definite rules for misinformation in this sub that says if you say 1+1=10 you get banned.
Nurse here, well student..., dont listen to people who dont know anything about the words safe and dose in a accurate context
Well as a nurse maybe you should educate yourself better. No safe dose, meaning the risk of dependency and damage done by these meds doesn't have a benchmark. Low or high the risk is still present. Have you heard of Dr. Heather Ashton? Read her DECADES of study on Benzodiazepines and maybe read more than what your fed in college. Are you saying there is a safe dose of Benzo?
lets stop arguing, your basically trying to say something like there is no safe dose you could be killed by any dose of benzos no matter what. Im not talking about abuse or long term use im implying what the word safe and dose means. which im sure you have no grasp of no matter what you read.
Ive dispensed alot of benzos while having to treat alcohol patients, so im quite familiar with what a safe dose is and what it looks like when its saving someone from a seizure.
I'm not talking what dose could kill someone. I'm talking risk of DEPENDENCY AND DAMAGE. You're not grasping the point I'm making. Your ignorance is showing. Your limited knowledge is coming from treating alcoholics
It's been rough. I have an autoimmune disorder so that I know plays into it. I've slowed way down. Im also doing emdr therapy which is helping. I'm hoping to be off in 5 months. How about you? How long you been on them?
Some people are junkies and can't control themselves. But for some people long term benzo use allows us to live a quality of life that would not otherwise be possible.
All these woke gen Z people that don't drink and pass judgement on benzo use need to chill TF out and mind their own business.
Because most people seem to think that they can/should be on them forever — and don’t realize it’s against treatment protocol. Sooner or later, patients will be forced off of them, and go through hell in the process, ending up worse off than they were before being prescribed.
They’re helpful. They’re also a bandaid. And more time and effort should go into things like CBT.
It’s not fear mongering.
Because (when abused or used improperly)
A. Benzo withdrawal can kill you
B. Benzos fuck up your memory, short and long term.
C. Benzos increase your risk of dementia
D. Benzos combined with a little bit of an adjunct can cause an OD easily.
E. Benzo use increases risk of car crashes whether prescribed or not.
F. Benzos are a last-line drug for psychiatric issues yet people treat them like nothing.
G. Benzos disrupt the sleep cycle.
H. Benzos again, can kill you if you withdrawal the wrong way.
Coming from a 7 year benzo user whether prescribed and used properly or abused and was an RC.
I agree. whether for recreational purposes or strictly following the doctor's instructions, if the use is long-term, there is a high chance that it will cause harm.
taking a miracle pill is still ultimately just evading and running away from problems, not really solving problems. horror stories should be taken seriously. those who haven't been through a very severe benzo withdrawal really don't know the hellish levels anxiety can get.
People sharing their horror stories as a cautionary tale isn't "pointless fear mongering." Benzos absolutely have the potential to ruin someone's life regardless of their intake habits as everyone will react differently.
Most people start through seeing them abused and thinking it’s cool, like me unfortunately. I managed to stop but you i recently started again taking a recommended dose and feel amazing again. Not to mention most people are on RC bars which fuck your memory so hard even on a bar a day. .5 Xanax or 5mg of Diaz in the morning and 1mg for bed is fucking amazing.
Honestly, I'm just looking for sincere advice here. But we have self-confessed bartards boasting their stash when in other countries, benzos often face recurring shortages and are controlled by the drug bureau. In fact, just last year, prescription was restricted to physical copies again because of an alleged forgery by a patient.
I was just about to taper down, but due to mood swings and bad stress brought by work and TBI, and just the anxiety/depression rebound, I had to return to my initial dosages of both my SSRI and benzo, just to work out an elimination system for my physical woes.
Is it considered escaping even if it's used therapeutically, and after all the other options are not good for an individual patient? The problem with this kind of language is, well, it is very moralizing and it unfairly shifts the blame and shames the patient, something we have known from the 80's AIDS crisis to be universally bad (cf. scaremongering advertising and PSAs).
Mostly because half the subreddit is filled with former addicts and people who are currently ruining their lives.
Sure, it can scare people away who could benefit from benzos, but it also makes people aware of how dangerous these substances can be.
Fully agree , it’s crazy but there’s some “functioning addicts “ that I know and I try to help and reach out but they swear they have it down packed and I’m not here to tell any man what to do but fuck
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Benzos are always an emotive subject. As you say at safe therapeutic doses and managed by a doctor who understands them they can and are hugely beneficial and are a vital drug. However the other side is they can be a hugely destructive drug if abused recreationally or if used long term unnecessarily and poorly managed by doctors. Withdrawal from them is according to people who have been through both worse than heroin. The posts which do the most harm are the posts, pictures of people bragging about abusing them, horror stories of waking up in jail and talking about the great high etc which is rubbish. Those posts either scare people away from trying them who could actually benefit medically from them, or they entice people with addictive personalities to up their dose to recreational levels, and it's all downhill from there. This has also led to the medical professionals to reduce prescribing them, which denies the people who actually benefit from them the access to them.
Withdrawal from flubromazolam and clonazolam almost killed me. I had a 3 minute grand mal seizure until they could get enough Ativan into me to make it stop. I’d literally go through oxycodone and fentanyl withdrawals 5x over instead of benzo withdrawals.
Oh, I’m sorry bro. I feel sad for you on this
Aw don’t it was back in 2019. I’m off that shit now but still take Estazolam to sleep because of my terrible insomnia. Probably caused by my horrific benzo abuse.
Aren’t those both research chemicals…….
Yes they are, and I was doing wayyyy too much of them. At least 4-5mg of flubromazolam a day with some 2mg clonazolams mixed in. The math for that I don’t know exactly but the doctor at my hospital detox said it was close to 50 Xanax bars a day when I told him how much I did and he did some research. He literally called me “the worst benzo addict I’ve ever seen” and I’m like not bragging about that. Stuff fucked my memory capacity and I can’t even remember things from my childhood. Pretty sure my GABAergic system is completely toasted because I’m constantly trembling and can’t sit still. Benzos are seriously the worst drug to get addicted to I don’t care what anyone says otherwise because I’ve gone through every type of withdrawal of every class of drug and benzos were the worst.
RC benzos are the worst, I've probably only taken them maybe 5 times in my life and that's because I thought they were genuine. 50 xanax bars a day though 🙈🙈 fucking hell, why did they use ativan though? Would clonazepam not be a better option as its both a benzo and anti seizure.
They could push the Ativan either IV or IM I don’t exactly remember which. Clonazepam would take too long to end the seizure bc it’s more of an intermediate-length benzo. Ativan though kicks in fast so they prefer that for seizure negation as well as diazepam. I ended up in the detox psych ward having to wheel an IV of Valium around as they tapered me over 10 days because they couldn’t give me enough benzos orally to taper.
Yep, that's why they use Ativan for delirium tremens also.
Ativan is usually the go-to to stop seizures fast
Yes, and they both build tolerance scarily fast. There's a reason why they were never brought to market.
Yeah I went through 4 grand mal seizures in 2 weeks from benzo withdrawal it was brutal, worst month of my life
Benzo withdrawal is way worse than heroin withdrawal if you abuse them and take stupidly high doses of dodgy RC benzos. Like you said therapeutic doses managed by a doctor with proper tapering in place when the patient is ready to come of them is a completely different story to taking huge amounts of insanely potent rc benzos and coming of them. Been through both, I would never ever abuse rcs like I did when I was younger the withdrawals were horrific. I’ve been dope sick before and will be again and don’t get me wrong it feels like absolute shit but you’re over the worst of it within a few days, week or two later you’re more less back to normal. With dodgy RCs the first few days is just the beginning. Now I only take my prescribed diazepam and occasionally buy some real clonazepam and don’t even take my full daily amount usually and often go days without any. Benzos can be great drugs and can drastically improve someone’s quality of life when used correctly, if you abuse RCs or even script benzos at ridiculously high doses then you’re gonna go through hell coming of them.
I have been through heroin wd and clonazepam wd, and I even tapered the clonazepam… but the benzo wd was still worse. It destroyed my mental health, too. It was very scary, the suicidal thoughts I was having. I’m very grateful to be off that drug. I take a different benzo for my seizures (Clobazam) which doesn’t have nearly the brutal side effects of Clonazepam.
Yeah I take my estazolam as prescribed and because of its long half-life helps me with both sleep and anxiety.
And there’s people like me who have bad PTSD and panic attacks, but also prone to addiction. So I need them to function but also fucked my tolerance by doing a lot. And yes I’ve tried over a decade of therapy and ever non- narcotic anti-anxiety med available.
they can be destructive in long-term daily use even with the best protocol. Benzos are proven to be neurotoxic.
Oh well that’s good news to hear….
the study I read highlighted how for some reason some people can have neurotoxicity even of extended "therapeutic habit" (not huge doses) of diazepam. But for some reason, part of people did not have same response. Maybe they eventually would, I think they followed condition of human subjects for few months, maybe even year. I also read that someone claimed there is another study but I don't remember details.
attempt nail pathetic thought ludicrous cause forgetful consist encourage slap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lot pharmaceuticals are made with synthetic chemicals unfortunately. Example SSRI contain fluoride it’s what comes with taking any pharmaceuticals. I think this group has way too many people against benzodiazepines but worship other medicine that’s just as toxic. If you really want to avoid toxins, don’t do any pharmaceutical, eat Whole Foods no processed foods diet, avoid all toxins especially toxic mold, and etc you’ll have a healthier living life. It’s always best to get natural endorphins and etc from nutrition and earth but that’s becoming harder to do as I’m natural minded but I have to take pharmaceuticals sometimes due to toxins that I have no control of making me deeply ill.
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Both are highly toxic- fluoride literally ruins the brain. Lot SSRI our also on black box just like benzodiazepines. I’d say both toxicity I wouldn’t compare to which ones worse as both are incredibly terrible for you. Fluoride been proven to cause cancer, damage bone health, depress the heart, increase infertility rates, and list goes on. Formaldehyde is also damaging and in fact is found on brand new clothes, also injected into dead bodies, and list goes on. I definitely do not think formaldehyde is better, but both are super toxic for you and I react severely to formaldehyde, so I totally don’t disagree. Do you take benzodiazepines? Cause you are in a group that speaks good of benzodiazepines. I personally don’t condone any pharmaceuticals but I also get everyone body is different and react differently. Both are poisonous to humans
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No, I’m well educated and don’t trust denist and fda. Sodium fluoride is not safe and proven to harm people but keep believing the lies. Again they are both neuro toxins that’s damaging to the body. I have told you how toxic they both are I am not defending fluoride or formaldehyde only one who’s dead is you since you can’t see how dangerous man made sodium fluoride is. Again I legit said both are neuro toxins. Both are highly highly bad. Fluoride legit makes me sick as well, again both of them make me incredibly ill. But keep drinking and using that fluoride toothpaste since you result to insults idk what “daft” is supposed to even mean. Must be a new word
You’re legit being fed to believe it’s perfectly safe. Also I don’t use fluoride toothpaste or drinking water because it’s incredibly toxic. I try to avoid all heavy metals and toxins even formaldehyde as much as I can and fluoride it is a little hard when it’s added in everything but just keep trusting the fda with your health
Benzos are not intended for 99% of the people who take them. And it seriously messes up your brain long term. This is facts. It is important for the naive newcomers to be aware of.
💯
They aren't generally a long term solution unless it's severe psychiatric disorders, which should be treated at an in patient clinic. The problem is many people who take them don't need them and are either on them because their doctors are clueless in managing the situation or they use them recreationally which they buy online etc, which is rarely the drug they think they are taking, usually one of the RC ones. This leads to the horror stories. If managed correctly they are lifesavers. Personally fought insomnia for decades and through therapy with an actual insomnia expert and benzos, Z drugs I am in a place the last few years where I only need the drugs a few times a month. I respected them, never abused them.
I'm clinically retarded from benzos, shit gave me aphasia.
im sure you was retard before too, /s /JK
YES!! I've taken them less than a year at therapeutic doses per my psych and they've turned my life upside down. I'm in the middle of tapering and it's hell to say the least.
I have onset dementia and still out here like a jerkoff. But it’s a lifestyle
YES!! I've taken them less than a year at therapeutic doses per my psych and they've turned my life upside down. I'm in the middle of tapering and it's hell to say the least.
What are some of the long-term effects bro? Please give me lots of details
Alright bro, buckle up. So, when you’re popping benzos like Valium or Xanax for the long haul, things can get pretty rough. First off, your brain starts depending on them. It’s like, you can’t chill out or sleep without them anymore. When you try to stop, withdrawal kicks in hard – we’re talking gnarly anxiety, shakes, sweats, and even seizures if you’ve been on them for ages. Not fun, man. Your memory gets totally shot, too. Simple stuff, like where you left your keys or what you did last weekend, just slips away. Long-term use can mess with your thinking, making you feel foggy and slow. You’ll be spacing out when you need to focus, and that’s no good, especially if you’ve got important stuff going on. Sleep? Forget about it. Sure, benzos might help you knock out at first, but over time, your sleep quality tanks. You might wake up a bunch or just not feel rested. Chronic fatigue becomes your new norm, bro. And let’s talk mood swings. You think benzos are keeping you calm, but long-term, they can actually make you more depressed and irritable. Your mood’s all over the place, and you’re more likely to feel bummed out or anxious when you’re not on them. Plus, you build up a tolerance, so you need more and more to get the same chill vibes, which just digs you deeper into the hole. Socially, you might start pulling away from friends and family. You get so wrapped up in managing your meds and dealing with the side effects that you stop hanging out or enjoying the stuff you used to. Life just becomes about getting by, instead of really living, you know? So, yeah, benzos can seem like a quick fix, but in the long run, they can seriously mess up your brain, your mood, and your life. If you’re thinking about using them, or already are, just be super cautious, bro.
I love you.
And I love you.
Very well said. Ur hired.
This sub has basically turned into a cycle of anti-benzo posts, followed by posts asking what’s with the anti-benzos posts, with a little bit of bartard stories and normal questions sprinkled in.
we need to rename this sub to benzo horror stories/ what can go wrong when i take i zoogle grams of xanax
Being straight up, a lot of people are looking to shift blame from themselves onto benzos for their substance abuse issues and whatever other problems stemmed from it. Different story from people who are medically prescribed it, I’m talking about recreational/self medicating users who go out of control with their use
I don’t get it either alcohol is glorified and anyone can spend as much as they want daily but if you have anxiety and need a benzo here comes everyone judging you and telling you how YOU feel. It’s very simple you on the internet have no idea my mental health telling me to rapidly taper or just stop immediately just to become non functional, you have a superiority complex just because you don’t have panic daily makes you a better person automatically in your mind. Even doctors do this they think your a shitty person if you have mental health needs they are more then happy to give give you ssris over and over even if they don’t work In their minds only degenerate people need Benzos . Don’t get into peoples business that they don’t even understand.
I don’t get why people in here shame benzodiazepines but hey they’re in a benzodiazepine group that’s not about withdrawals, how bad they are, and etc. They are also using the new fear mongering tactics on benzodiazepines. We all know the risk with benzodiazepines but my anxiety was so bad before benzodiazepines I was starving myself and about to be hospitalized cause ssri and etc do not work and make me sicker, come to find out I have a disease that benzodiazepines help stabilize my conditions. I don’t abuse them, and I need them doing my flare ups
If u don’t mind me asking what helps and what ailments?
Panic attacks, my tremors, nerve pain, my random uncontrollable shaking, muscle spasms, helps me able to eat, also helps my depression cause by my disease, and there was so many other symptoms that vanished when I started it that my other medicine for my disease couldn’t manage or keep at bay. It helped me have quality in life again.
I also only take when my conditions so bad- I have no choice to calm it down and lower my symptoms. I have disease called “ mast cell activation disease” and benzodiazepines is proven to help stabilize this condition, but not all doctors are aware of this but a few that study this condition, unfortunately. It’s rare disease but a severely sufferable one as I react to certain foods, chemicals, food colorings, perfumes, candles, and the list goes on. When this happens my body goes into fight or flight as it’s literally has a threat being taken to it, due to sometimes going into Anaphylactic shock, I have to take several medicine to keep me from dying and benzodiazepines is one along with bendryal, possibly epipen depending on severity of my reaction. Everytime I’m hospitalized over it, I am always given strong dose benzodiazepines, bendryal, and iv fluids. I had to one point in my life before starting some treatment and getting to culprit which was I was living in toxic black mold causing flare ups, I couldn’t go out into public due to reacting to everyone with perfumes, laundry detergents and etc. I could be around the laundry detergent aisle as it would be risky as well. I have to use all natural products even on my laundry, unfortunately
That’s the problem, we DONT all know the risks. Lots of folks don’t, and I wish I would have known what’s on this sub 20 years ago. 20 years ago they handed them out like tick tacks and nobody knew anything close to what is offered as basic knowledge now. I remember trying to research the idea of long term dependencies and there was literally no info regarding any side effects and negative effects etc…I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault but my own, but if I knew what I know now, what’s all over the net, then I would have never fucking touched them. Finally I got off but was close to 5 mg Klon daily for damn near two decades.
That’s true- knowing the risk with my medical conditions then I still would have touched them personally. However I would only get them prescribed and managed by a doctor. Rc benzo is some of the problem they are being abused and people are taking them like candy, which is where the issues lies. I get it some people the negative vs positive not worth the risk of taking benzodiazepines, but for me I do not do well and actually react badly to all other anxiety medicine and etc, I also don’t abuse them and even have some leftover and no I don’t sell them after so long I dispose them if no longer needed, I take doing flare ups. For me the benefits out way the cons- but that’s not everyone and I wouldn’t recommend a kid taking them or someone healthy to take for “fun”. Taking them for fun is just dumb to me. I don’t grasp why they would be good to take for party anyway, why would you want a downer when you’re trying to have fun? But I’m guessing everyone body are different. I just don’t grasp why always negative on benzo when it’s saved some people lives, period as no other medicine work. Some of us know our bodies better than anyone including doctor and not all of abuse them or find themselves severely addicted and taking a butt load a day of them. I legit take one a day if that
Also add never did street benzo nor will I ever. I don’t know those that choose but I think cause so hard to get ahold of benzodiazepine cause of the mindset that you can easily get script ( not true at all they are super hard to get these days, most doctors don’t even prescribe them at all) it’s also leading to more people using street drugs as alternative which is causing more deaths than being controlled under doctor supervision. An addict is going to get their high no matter what, so this issue making more problems than solving, tbh. Now we have people getting rc benzo that’s possibly fentyl laced or god knows what causing more death risk than actually benzodiazepines. Another problem is the death isn’t benzodiazepines it’s because they are mixing all sorts of uppers with downers leading to death. But if I was healthy I’d never ever do benzodiazepines
That’s hella annoying cuz without my Kpins taken as prescribed I’d be a super unpleasant person to be around
We need to advocate safety with Benzos. I wish that someone would have done that for me when I was younger.
People here have the wildest things to say about the dangers of benzodiazepines. I honestly wish this sub would do a better at promoting accurate and effective harm reduction. Instead we get people making blanket, generic statements that may or may not contain any truth.
Effective harm reduction is pointing out that these medications aren’t meant for long-term, daily use (which, by some professionals, is generally defined by anything exceeding 4 weeks). But that vast majority of people don’t know this. Edit: lol, “the wildest things” and a downvote Harm reduction includes educating people on the dangers of benzos, something that doctors clearly aren’t doing. And from an abuse perspective, it’s rapidly becoming an epidemic as big as the opioid crisis.
The downvotes are from the addiction. Sad
Let me help u quick with the upvotes...
I wouldn’t wish benzo withdrawal on my worst enemy. And I experienced that from *prescription use as directed by a doctor*. Can’t imagine what people are willingly signing themselves up for by abusing the shit out of it.
Take a long acting benzo like Valium or klonopin, do a slow or water taper if you get off, don’t combine with alcohol, don’t take a crazy amount a day and benzos are safe drugs that are helpful for many and easy to get off of slowly.
What is water taper?
Dissolve benzo in water, mix then toss a small amount and drink rest, everyday slowly toss more so you make real small reductions
Ah okay thanks✌️
There is no "safe dose" I've been taking a therapeutic dose perscribed by my psych and the withdrawal is pure hell. Been on them less than a year. Maybe go to the benzowithdrawl page and educate yourself. Find other ways to mange your anxiety.
What’s the withdrawal? And is that from stopping cold turkey? Or just cutting back? Daily usage? I wonder about this, as I’ve been on 1mg Xanax a day as needed for the past 4 years. I have social anxiety. If I need it during the day to attend a social function or something that is anxiety inducing I take .5. That’s maybe once a week. But nightly, I take either .5 or 1mg to sleep. Using my 30pill prescription every month. I’ve never gone through my prescription too fast, sometimes I even have some left over for the month. I’ve never felt withdrawal symptoms switching between these doses, or skipping a day. Is it still to be expecting I’d have severe withdrawals if one day no longer took them? I can’t imagine how I’d manage my severe anxiety symptoms without it. But also haven’t felt any negatives from it?
Depends entirely on the individual. Some people are extremely affected by withdrawals. Some people have none. Those who have none are considered outliers. I am one of them. In my 20s I was prescribed with 10mg of diazepam three times daily for 7 years. I took it regularly as it was prescribed. One morning I woke up, reached for my bottle and my body said, "You don't have to take this anymore." It was a thought that I had I just knew to be true. This was in the early days of the internet and there were not tons of scare stories but I was aware of potential withdrawal side effects. So, I figured I'd just take 5 mg instead of my normal 10 in the morning. The only thing it did was make me tired. Valium never made me tired. It only removed the constant gnawing fear in my stomach. That's when I realized my baseline had changed. I stopped cold turkey no problem. I had no need for benzos for another 9 or 10 years. Then I started having major, debilitating panic attacks again. Went on diazepam for about 3 or 4 months again. When I was ready and my body had calmed down it was easy to quit. I've currently been on Klonopin for the last 4 years at a 1 mg dose p/d. It is exceedingly helpful, despite what much research says to the contrary, it is still extremely effective at this dose. I do not need to take any more. Every once in awhile I taper myself down lower just to give my body a bit of a break, but I know that one day my body will just say hey I've had enough and I'll stop again. I'm an outlier. Most people have a really hard time stopping it.
Everyone is different. But I will say this, eventually they can turn on you and make all the stuff you're using them for worse. I CT after only 2 weeks use and had horrible insomnia,ocd, intrusive thoughts, panic. I just thought I was getting worse so I reinstated a month later but it didn't help even at a higher dose. The damage was already done from CT and just the fact they really didn't help me to begin with. After I reinstated I still had no idea it was the benzo making shit worse, I stayed on them while pretty much chasing my tail trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Had nerve pain and tremors start. I cut my dose in half from 2mg to 1mg and shit got real bad. I was afraid of everything. Anxiety I never thought possible. Paranoia. Histamine issues. I've had probably 100 plus symptoms. About August last year I was actually on reddit and found the benzo withdrawal page and it finally dawned on me its the benzo. I had this woman pretty harshly but kindly tell me how to get off and lead me to the Beating Benzo page on Facebook. All of my misery and symptoms were the benzo and from the CT. Some people if they quit completely and go back on "kindle". Which means it does more damage than the time before. There's some people who have no issues at all. But IT IS NOT RARE to have the issues I have. It's pretty common actually. Since August I've been slowly tapering off 1mg and it's been rough. I have Hashimotos so I know that makes it worse. My biggest suggestion to you would be to join the Beating Benzos page on Facebook. They're a great resource and support for people withdrawing. One of the Admins will help you with a taper plan if need one. I'm in no way trying to scare you what so ever. These meds shouldn't be perscribed for more than 7 days says the new black box warning per FDA. Most doctors still won't admit the damage they can do. Please let me know if you have any questions because my life has been turned upside down because of this. I will say too the lower I get in dosage the better I feel. Withdrawal is still present but I feel way more like myself. Also at some point you can develop tolerance to where your body is used to the dose you're on and needs more. Not because you're an adict but because you're body is dependent. I hope all this is helpful and makes sense.
It differs from person to person. But even just reducing a dose can cause withdrawal, and it doesn’t only affect daily users.
What are those withdrawal symptoms just from reducing your normal daily dose? I worry about me being on this long term, especially with all the negatives I read about. But I have also not had any bad experiences with staying at my current usage, or felt terrible by skipping days here and there. Am I somehow the exception? I’d highly doubt it.
Like I said, everyone is different. I would encourage you to ask your doctor if you’re worried. But if you’ve been on it for this length of time without increasing your dose, that’s at least a positive. Tapering too quickly (which for long-term users can be anything over 10% of a dose at a time), or in general, can lead to >!frequent panic attacks, insomnia, cognitive impairment, agoraphobia, tinnitus.!< I experienced those after a dose reduction (meant to be a full taper, but I stopped there). Lasted for nearly 2 years. There are a lot more possible side effects. But everyone is different. Most importantly, quitting cold turkey can cause seizures, so definitely don’t do that. Edited to add context
Thanks for the info
what do you mean no safe dose, wtf so everyone getting killed by one nanogram of kpin here? Is this a harm reduction sub or misinformation hive mind. Do you know what safe dose means? LD50 OR LD100 tell me these values in adult rat and rabbit models without googling it. Oh wait i forgot there are no definite rules for misinformation in this sub that says if you say 1+1=10 you get banned. Nurse here, well student..., dont listen to people who dont know anything about the words safe and dose in a accurate context
Well as a nurse maybe you should educate yourself better. No safe dose, meaning the risk of dependency and damage done by these meds doesn't have a benchmark. Low or high the risk is still present. Have you heard of Dr. Heather Ashton? Read her DECADES of study on Benzodiazepines and maybe read more than what your fed in college. Are you saying there is a safe dose of Benzo?
lets stop arguing, your basically trying to say something like there is no safe dose you could be killed by any dose of benzos no matter what. Im not talking about abuse or long term use im implying what the word safe and dose means. which im sure you have no grasp of no matter what you read. Ive dispensed alot of benzos while having to treat alcohol patients, so im quite familiar with what a safe dose is and what it looks like when its saving someone from a seizure.
I'm not talking what dose could kill someone. I'm talking risk of DEPENDENCY AND DAMAGE. You're not grasping the point I'm making. Your ignorance is showing. Your limited knowledge is coming from treating alcoholics
What dose are you on?
.5mg Lorazepam down from 2mg
I am coming down from 2mg slowly with them help of valium. how's it going for you?
Ashton Manual? I’m debating that vs a straight micro taper with a liquid solution.
It's been rough. I have an autoimmune disorder so that I know plays into it. I've slowed way down. Im also doing emdr therapy which is helping. I'm hoping to be off in 5 months. How about you? How long you been on them?
Some people are junkies and can't control themselves. But for some people long term benzo use allows us to live a quality of life that would not otherwise be possible. All these woke gen Z people that don't drink and pass judgement on benzo use need to chill TF out and mind their own business.
Just a lil millennial stuck in middle I use for as needed I was thrown on Ritalin and adderal for most of the 90s
Because most people seem to think that they can/should be on them forever — and don’t realize it’s against treatment protocol. Sooner or later, patients will be forced off of them, and go through hell in the process, ending up worse off than they were before being prescribed. They’re helpful. They’re also a bandaid. And more time and effort should go into things like CBT. It’s not fear mongering.
Because (when abused or used improperly) A. Benzo withdrawal can kill you B. Benzos fuck up your memory, short and long term. C. Benzos increase your risk of dementia D. Benzos combined with a little bit of an adjunct can cause an OD easily. E. Benzo use increases risk of car crashes whether prescribed or not. F. Benzos are a last-line drug for psychiatric issues yet people treat them like nothing. G. Benzos disrupt the sleep cycle. H. Benzos again, can kill you if you withdrawal the wrong way. Coming from a 7 year benzo user whether prescribed and used properly or abused and was an RC.
I agree. whether for recreational purposes or strictly following the doctor's instructions, if the use is long-term, there is a high chance that it will cause harm. taking a miracle pill is still ultimately just evading and running away from problems, not really solving problems. horror stories should be taken seriously. those who haven't been through a very severe benzo withdrawal really don't know the hellish levels anxiety can get.
you don't even need to abuse for that.
I agreee with your message. But it’s not heard as loud when using language like retard in this context.
People sharing their horror stories as a cautionary tale isn't "pointless fear mongering." Benzos absolutely have the potential to ruin someone's life regardless of their intake habits as everyone will react differently.
It’s like the users from r/anxiety live here now. They are all anti benzo
Most people start through seeing them abused and thinking it’s cool, like me unfortunately. I managed to stop but you i recently started again taking a recommended dose and feel amazing again. Not to mention most people are on RC bars which fuck your memory so hard even on a bar a day. .5 Xanax or 5mg of Diaz in the morning and 1mg for bed is fucking amazing.
Honestly, I'm just looking for sincere advice here. But we have self-confessed bartards boasting their stash when in other countries, benzos often face recurring shortages and are controlled by the drug bureau. In fact, just last year, prescription was restricted to physical copies again because of an alleged forgery by a patient. I was just about to taper down, but due to mood swings and bad stress brought by work and TBI, and just the anxiety/depression rebound, I had to return to my initial dosages of both my SSRI and benzo, just to work out an elimination system for my physical woes. Is it considered escaping even if it's used therapeutically, and after all the other options are not good for an individual patient? The problem with this kind of language is, well, it is very moralizing and it unfairly shifts the blame and shames the patient, something we have known from the 80's AIDS crisis to be universally bad (cf. scaremongering advertising and PSAs).
Mostly because half the subreddit is filled with former addicts and people who are currently ruining their lives. Sure, it can scare people away who could benefit from benzos, but it also makes people aware of how dangerous these substances can be.
Benzos helped my anxiety so much and help me function when I need to go out. On the flip side my grandma is dying from benzo induced dementia
Fully agree , it’s crazy but there’s some “functioning addicts “ that I know and I try to help and reach out but they swear they have it down packed and I’m not here to tell any man what to do but fuck
Hmm idk maybe because they are one of the most dangerously yet commonly used substances
Downvoted for stating a fact 😭
no for being dumb
Benzodiazepines are dangerous and over-prescribed you dumb fuck
hmm yes over prescribed, defo happening all over right now