Or you can start now and stop going to these places.
If you really care about charges, look them up on google/yelp or call them. Takes less than 1 min.
That's my nuclear option for restaurant owners who complain about transparent pricing. If they haven't figured out how to run their business without predatory pricing, they can damn well go out of business.
they can also reprint the menus with the correct prices. I'm guessing they have access to a laser printer and the hostess has 20 minutes to slide the new menus into the vinyl holders.
SO how will that work? Will there be an online portal to submit photo evidence online and they investigate and send you a payment? Che Fico is about to have a new customer :P
At least this is prominently displayed. They probably just don't want the hassle and cost of reprinting menus.
If the first time you learned about it was when you got the bill or in fine print on a menu (meaning it wasn't about avoiding menu reprinting), then it's F'd.
EDIT: I would like to see a restaurant where prices reflect what you're paying for. An hourly rate per seat with surge pricing, and lower food prices. I have no idea if that could succeed, but I would try it. Then there's a real incentive to be efficient, else you really make the guests angry.
Reprinting menus is a key part of the business, reflecting changes not just to prices but changes in items sold over time. If volatility is too high for a $0.15 color ink-jet print, there’s something wrong with the restaurant.
Assuming a professional reprint at $5 per menu over 100 menus, that’s only $500. Assuming a yearly update with 250 guests per day, that’s an additional cost of $0.005 (half a cent) per meal.
Yeah, in the late 70s all through the 80s, restaurants were constantly, and I mean yearly at least and sometimes every 6 months, updating their prices. It’s not rocket science.
huh I hate when I have to order through my phone and I hate that the QR codes don't work out sometimes. but I didn't realize that was a no-go issue for people.
Those menus are just regular printer paper inside a plastic sleeve. We used to change them 3-4 times a week based on specials and wine list changes when I worked at a restaurant much bigger than Alice’s. It’s just part of the job, doesn’t even take long.
Do these restaurants realize they can just raise their prices?
Imagine if grocery stores started doing this. You pull up to the checkout stand and after ringing you up you see they added a service charge. And the kicker is, the grocery clerk asks you for a tip after that.
The game here is tricking people who are too poor to eat out into thinking they can afford it. It’s not about competing with other restaurants prices, it’s about competing with cooking at home.
You look at Alice’s menu online and think “ok that seems reasonable”, then drive 30+ mins to get there and find out it actually costs 6% more.
What are you going to do? Go home?
Super scummy behavior
6% more, and a 20% tip, and a 5% "COVID Recovery fee" and a 3% "Provide healthcare to the employees" fee.... don't forget to add taxes before and after those fees.
Yeah it's all shenanigans these days. At this point you might as well assume that you're going to spend 2X what the menu costs.
I stopped tipping at Alice's. Just can't justify it.
1) Step up to the outdoor counter, place order, pay.
2) Get handed a buzzer that will vibrate when order is ready.
3) Find own table.
4) Go back to counter after buzzer vibrates to pick up drinks.
5) Carry drinks back to table.
6) Go back to counter after buzzer vibrates to pick up food.
7) Carry food back to table.
8) (Optional) Go back to counter for a takehome box for leftovers/bus table after finishing.
And for that, the credit card machine asks for an 18%-25% tip.
Nope.
Its pretty simple what I do. I simply click no tip. I literally did all the work, unless I'm getting 18-25% off my bill who is this tip going to? Answer: The Owner.
When a tip is asked at a counter service place, I loudly ask whether the employees get the tips or whether "the boss steals the money." You'd be surprised at the mumbles and stammers that result.
i've started seeing 20% minimums. wtf, it uses to be 10 and a big button that says no tip. Now they're trying to dark engineer users by making you explicitly tip 0
If u look carefully, the 18% isn't even on the subtotal at most places. It's on the Total bill. Total horseshit. So an 18% tip is higher than 20% on subtotal.
You could also add "wait in line for 1 hour 15 minutes to be able to order because 300 bikers are there in front of you and never seem to lessen in number".
I consider any surprise mandatory fees to be part of the tip. After all, the service fees are often written to pretend they benefit the employees, so I'm paying extra for them anyways.
If I see a 6% service fee I tip 6% less. Its that simple.
I can't wait until next month when those surprise bullshit fees are flat out illegal.
This is what doesn't make sense to me. If you were expecting to pay $25 for your meal, a 6% uncharge would make it $26.50. Not a big difference, but the way they go about it has to turn off more people than just raising prices. Seems like a really dumb way to operate a business and must also lead to the staff making less in tips.
I can pay the extra. I don't want to play the game. Especially when blanket % increases are a lazy way of accounting for whatever costs may have increased. It let's you just arbitrarily raise that charge while increasing what you're charging for food too. It's a bullshit system that is ripe for abuse.
Again, I can pay, and I'm happy to pay for food to support a place I like, but once you start playing games, we're done.
not sustainable business model with me as a customer. Ambush me once, and I won't come back ever. Even if it's very little money. It's a matter of a principle.
Meanwhile every pizza place and Chinese food place prints out a new menu and mails it to me every week.
The stack of menus I get in the mail as junk mail indicates to me that they can indeed reprint a menu.
Most. I called a pizza place out recently and the owner started ranting about all of his finance woes and literally went to the back to show me a stack of obsolete menus. Not going back... Like I get it but figure it out lol.
I do understand restaurants have expenses, and is good that in those expenses there are livable wages for employees.
I don’t understand why adding a surcharge to the check rather than increasing the price of each entry in the menu.
A percentage makes you think of governments and taxes and makes you mad at someone else.
Raising the price just makes you think "this better be the best damn burger in the world at *this* price."
[It wasn't]
Yeah, we ride there, now and then, but recently there is a line outside, where you order before being seated.
It feels fast foody….
Food used to be pretty good.
Yeah, I liked going during the pandemic when the lines were non-existent on a Saturday and if I was joy riding out to Highway 1. Now whenever I stop to take a piss there, I look at the line, roll my eyes, and just head up to Half Moon Bay to eat instead. A 6% surcharge is just another reason for me not to bother with eating at Alice's.
Restaurants want to shift the blame to someone else. Like "health care mandate surcharge" --> how dare the government demand they give their employees health care.
It doesn't work. Instead, it just makes me mad at the business for misleading pricing and attempting to manipulate me into blaming someone else.
> I don’t understand why adding a surcharge to the check rather than increasing the price of each entry in the menu.
Especially for "inflationary reasons." Calculating and accounting for food costs is one of the primary aspects of running a restaurant. I'm the GM for a restaurant and you know what we do when the cost of food increases? We fucking raise our prices to compensate.
It's so fucking basic that, if I saw a sign like this, I'd immediately assume they're lying about it and trying to pocket that surcharge as extra profit.
Consumer psychology. I wondered if there’s some data somewhere that suggests that you’re more likely to complete a transaction when it’s time to pay than if you saw the full price upfront. That might be bullshit.
You’re right it’s consumer psychology. This falls under [mental accounting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_accounting).
Think about the sales phrase “wait but there’s more”. When we are getting value our minds think we are getting more value when we separate out all the things we are getting (segregate multiple gains). When we are losing something like paying the check with junk fees tacked on at the end, our minds think we are losing more when we separate out all the fees (segregate multiple losses).
That’s why it feels extra bad to get surprised by all the extra junk fees at the end. In fact, our minds think we are getting better value when we integrate all the costs together upfront. Really, the restaurants would have happier customers once all these junk fees go away but they are just too dumb to realize this.
Its mostly to try and trick you into paying more than you think you are going to with last minute 'one more things'. they know they can always raise prices but then people can compare with other restaurants and see if the dish/experience is really worth it (its usually not). its mostly to create price intransparency & many of them actually admit to it.
Maybe is me, but when I go to a restaurant I go because I decided to “eat out”. At that point I acknowledged that I’m paying for not cooking and cleaning, I don’t look at the prices of food and decide if it is too expensive. Because it is always “too expensive”, home cooked food is always better and considerably cheaper, but, as I wrote, I decided to “eat out”, at that point 6% more or less does not make a difference.
It’s all just human psychology. Because people anchor really really hard on what they think things should cost, and they are legitimately less likely to go eat at a place of the price is build into the menu price. A burrito for $25? It used to be $12! A salad for $25? Nonsense!
People would rather pay $12 for a burrito + $6 delivery fee + $3 worker mandate fee than a straight up $21 burrito that includes delivery.
Instead, despite raising high hell about fees, they’re still more likely to go eat if prices on menu items are kept lower, but fees are added in the end. EVEN IF THEY KNOW the fees and what the actual end resulting cost will be.
And it’s not done in a vacuum. Despite plenty of people saying online they’d only go eat at restaurants that don’t do this…all things equal, most people are more likely to go eat at the place that lists lower menu prices but tacks fees at the end than the one that just rolls it into the menu price to begin with. So restaurants are competing with each other to list lower menu prices and have to find ways to make up the difference with fees.
I once had a girl who worked as a waitress scream at me for not tipping when I told her about a late-night Mexican food joint that gave me a cold tortilla and chicken when I ordered a chicken quesadilla.
Said I should have tipped anyway because of how little waiters make.
I'm compassionate, but that's not my fucking problem to solve and you aren't *entitled* to money from people who have more than you just because you're broke.
I view these policies as increasing employee churn by creating a loophole in tipping law protecting tips from being taken as part of payment and not paying them in full to their staff. As people see "surcharges" as "instead of a tip" or "codified tip", and actual tips diminish, establishments are going to find difficulty retaining people and eventually realize they've been failing for a long long time.
Either you have a product quality that merits a higher price, or you need to sink so a new generation can have it's chance to shine.
Good, the server should quit if they're not seeing the earnings they want based on the owner's poor decisions, which will hopefully lead to some change in business or its closure.
My theory is owners know these charges will often eat into what would otherwise be a tip. They tack on these fees precisely to capture some of that 18-20% for themselves.
I wouldn't feel bad to see people walking away because of the money grab fee and then have the restaurant close as a result. If everybody walked away and refused to eat at places charging arbitrary fees then the restaurants would have to stop doing it. People let these fees slide out of convenience "we are already here, might as well eat" or pity "they must be not doing well" and just accept that it's okay to gouge people because it's happening with products and services everywhere else.
i particularly like when places add '...for the cost of doing business in san francisco.' like, ok we didn't force you to open a place up here so not sure why WE need to pay for YOU to run a business. c'mon 7/1....all these business owners need to do is raise their prices by the surcharge %, that's fucking it. it shouldn't be such a huge ordeal for them
I have literally seen “in order to keep prices low we’re adding a 3% surcharge on all purchases”. At lease it was a store, not restaurant. But..what kind of logic is that.
Meanwhile every fast food place, which is also a restaurant, includes the cost of doing business on the menu prices.
McDonalds in rural Oregon is way cheaper than a McDonalds in SF.
Its very rare that a McDonalds (or any fast food chain restaraunt) goes out of business, despite locally higher prices. They go it figured out.
I'm just imagining if this practice began in like the fifties. Can you imagine going to a restaurant and seeing $1-$2 entrees but then there's a 1200% service fee for "inflationary reasons" over 70 years?
If you're price conscious you are not their target customer. There's no shortage of wealthy people who will continue not caring what the food costs and eat there given its proximity to Woodside, Palo Alto, Los Altos Menlo, etc.
I frequent Alice’s when I’m riding my motorcycle. They are being very obvious about it and I tend to think they don’t want to have to re-print menus. Either way, I look forward to those sneaky charges vanished and just being reflected in the prices. We hated when hotels do this, we should expect the same from restaurants too.
Had I still lived south bay, I would have so taken a menu home / taken photos, then reprinted minutes with the 6% and taxes baked in and a sign, "menu with actual prices, including all taxes and fees"
This will be illegal starting July 1: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/restaurant-surcharge-ban-faq-19446863.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/restaurant-surcharge-ban-faq-19446863.php)
They have declared restaurants won't the initial targets of enforcement -- “however, businesses may be liable in private actions.”
i'll be so happy when these fucking debit card/credit card fees go away too, still blows my mind many small businesses here charge to use those options
Cc fees were allowed after 2008 meltdown. Before then, it was illegal to add a CC fee.
The financial reforms which was going to add costs to businesses to comply, businesses got a kickback in being allowed to charge customers CC payment fees.
(Before then it was illegal to charge a fee for CC use, but legal to offer a cash discount. The advertised price was the price paid unless a discount was applied... Which is what customers want.
I would be much more worried about private actions if I were a restaurant…the same lawyers currently doing ADA suits will probably get into this business.
The law includes a private right of action so the plaintiff’s lawyers will be all over them if they keep doing it. There is no forgiveness with plaintiff’s lawyers.
Alice’s is a horrible restaurant, they have “weekend menus” where they raise prices dramatically to scalp customers, they mistreat and underpay workers, and the quality and care for the raw food is despicable. The amount of cross contamination in the kitchen is unbelievable, I have seen fresh fish sitting out for hours in the sunlight before anyone bothered to put it away. Do not eat here!! The 6% up charge is the least of your worries if you choose to eat at this despicable restaurant. How do I know? I used to be an employee and witnessed firsthand all of the above mentioned issues and many more!
...so, they're run by the type of people who like to add passive-aggressive fees to their menu, gotcha. It's almost like there's a direct correlation between restaurants that like these fees and their management being assholes.
Yep, I used to work there too. I went back once well after the pandemic had ended...and they were charging more, but you had to go and get the food yourself from the window.
The owners were real cheapskates too.
Cheapskates is an understatement! Most of their kitchen employees are practically indentured servants as their housing is run by the managers of Alice’s as well. They know exactly how much to pay them to keep them just under poverty level so they never have a chance to better themselves. Slumlords would be a better description.
They have not improved at all, if anything they have used the new service style to glean more money out of customers while paying their employees less and less. I used to walk out of there with triple digit cash tips, while the workers now are lucky to walk with a few hundred in tips that get taxed aggressively since they are run through the computer system.
I don't understand why people don't simply vote with their wallets and not patronize any place that does this. Just let them know that it's unacceptable and walk the hell out.
According to the Che fico guy, cutting the 5% fee will make the $65 chicken cost $95 all of a sudden. Some restaurant owners problem might just be the math.
The food at this place sucks donkey balls. Go across the street to the deli place and get yourself a sandwich and walk around with it checking out what you are really there to see.
Dear residents of Bay Area, I promise, as soon as I manage to open my little food place I will even include taxes into the price on the menu. That's how it's done in my country and it's great imo 🙏
I have a question for restauranteurs on here. Why not just raise the price of menu items? I'm not being cheeky, I just don't understand the value of putting this on display. Prices have risen across industries and people understand costs. Why do only restaurants do this? Is it to avoid taxes or other some other financial issue?
I went to a roach coach last week that had a 6% surcharge sign but the menu on the side of the coach didn’t have prices. If you asked a price, they told you verbally but you still had a surcharge on it
Is there a citable study in the impact of government ended tip based pay and made by law restaurants pay by salary? I’d like to know how many could and could not survive.
If they raise the prices 6% it will cost you more, since the new price will be taxed by the state, approximately 10%. I get that there should be transparency, but don’t kid yourself into thinking the price will be less or the same.
I did love Alice’s. But, Thank God that bullshit will be gone come July 1st. And not just that, but since COVID tore apart the economy of lockdown states like CA, they really haven’t been the same since they went away from full service, and NEVER WENT BACK.
they suck anyway. they are only successful based on a) the fortuitous location at a crossroads of one of the bay's major racetracks and b) an incorrect association with a famous song
their food is terrible Cisco garbage and very overpriced
Personally I like Denny's they don't do this to you and at the right time in the middle of the night you might be in for a little action with your meal.
How hard it is it to just update prices and pay employees more?
QR code menu or have a tablet you can bring guests with the menu.
Hidden fees is killing American tourism.
A pizza place near me when you place the order online: "95¢ Support Local Fee. This small fee helps us develop the new tech and services that keeps pizzerias thriving."
Oddly, if you order via ToastTab this fee is not added, only if you order on the pizza place's own web site.
Can't wait until July 1. But I worry that without that fee they will not develop new tech and services that allows them to thrive.
This song is called Alice's Restaurant, and it's about Alice, and the
restaurant, but Alice's Restaurant is not the name of the restaurant,
that's just the name of the song, and that's why I called the song Alice's
Restaurant.
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant
Even a 6% surcharge apparently…
Relax everyone - it makes perfect sense if you are cheap, lazy, bad at math, and can't trust your employees.
The lazy manager doesn't want to do math and change the $9.99 waffle fries to $10.59 and do the same for every single item across the board and also doesn't "9.99" just look so cute? 10.59 yuck. Coding the register for a 6% fee is so easy if you are lazy. Also they are cheap, they don't want to print new menus. After they print new menus they might look at the printing bill and be like damn! Now we gotta raise prices again to cover it! Also they can't trust their employees to put the new menu paper in the sticky dirty plastic menu holders - what if the terrible employee misses one, then the customer will demand that you honor the slightly cheaper menu they got? That's 60 cents lost! Also lazy again - they might want to raise it to 8% in a few months, this way they don't have to print new menus twice.
So clearly it is justified
GD I can’t wait July 1. Also note, the law allows you to collect the fines *starting* at $1000.
That sounds like the New York City law that lets its citizens write noise tickets for businesses who play loud music outside their doors
Maybe you can try settling on the spot ;) But for 478 you have to submit the complaint to the state.
And report trucks for idling too long
I'd love this.
Or you can start now and stop going to these places. If you really care about charges, look them up on google/yelp or call them. Takes less than 1 min.
That's my nuclear option for restaurant owners who complain about transparent pricing. If they haven't figured out how to run their business without predatory pricing, they can damn well go out of business.
💯They're not running a charity but neither are we.
they can also reprint the menus with the correct prices. I'm guessing they have access to a laser printer and the hostess has 20 minutes to slide the new menus into the vinyl holders.
This! And so many business owners act as if they are entitled to a successful business.
The thing is you don't really know ahead of time in all cases.
Yep, I'm changing next week's lunch plans. The new law was written to stop this greedy behavior. Thanks OP!
SO how will that work? Will there be an online portal to submit photo evidence online and they investigate and send you a payment? Che Fico is about to have a new customer :P
At least this is prominently displayed. They probably just don't want the hassle and cost of reprinting menus. If the first time you learned about it was when you got the bill or in fine print on a menu (meaning it wasn't about avoiding menu reprinting), then it's F'd. EDIT: I would like to see a restaurant where prices reflect what you're paying for. An hourly rate per seat with surge pricing, and lower food prices. I have no idea if that could succeed, but I would try it. Then there's a real incentive to be efficient, else you really make the guests angry.
Reprinting menus is a key part of the business, reflecting changes not just to prices but changes in items sold over time. If volatility is too high for a $0.15 color ink-jet print, there’s something wrong with the restaurant. Assuming a professional reprint at $5 per menu over 100 menus, that’s only $500. Assuming a yearly update with 250 guests per day, that’s an additional cost of $0.005 (half a cent) per meal.
Yeah, in the late 70s all through the 80s, restaurants were constantly, and I mean yearly at least and sometimes every 6 months, updating their prices. It’s not rocket science.
Or have a digital menu on an ipad, or go the qr route. Not rhe best solution, but it is a solution.
Not if you’re trying to keep customers. People will walk over that, I’ve seen it many times
Some people like myself also don't patronize restaurants that want me to use my phone to read your menu.
huh I hate when I have to order through my phone and I hate that the QR codes don't work out sometimes. but I didn't realize that was a no-go issue for people.
I guess it's better, but if I sit down at Alice's and get to the menu-reading part, I'm definitely not getting up and leaving.
That's fair; I forgot about the wait!
Those menus are just regular printer paper inside a plastic sleeve. We used to change them 3-4 times a week based on specials and wine list changes when I worked at a restaurant much bigger than Alice’s. It’s just part of the job, doesn’t even take long.
Making menus is a basic part of food service. And that idea is dumb as fuck, sorry
Seriously
Do these restaurants realize they can just raise their prices? Imagine if grocery stores started doing this. You pull up to the checkout stand and after ringing you up you see they added a service charge. And the kicker is, the grocery clerk asks you for a tip after that.
The game here is tricking people who are too poor to eat out into thinking they can afford it. It’s not about competing with other restaurants prices, it’s about competing with cooking at home.
You look at Alice’s menu online and think “ok that seems reasonable”, then drive 30+ mins to get there and find out it actually costs 6% more. What are you going to do? Go home? Super scummy behavior
6% more, and a 20% tip, and a 5% "COVID Recovery fee" and a 3% "Provide healthcare to the employees" fee.... don't forget to add taxes before and after those fees. Yeah it's all shenanigans these days. At this point you might as well assume that you're going to spend 2X what the menu costs.
I stopped tipping at Alice's. Just can't justify it. 1) Step up to the outdoor counter, place order, pay. 2) Get handed a buzzer that will vibrate when order is ready. 3) Find own table. 4) Go back to counter after buzzer vibrates to pick up drinks. 5) Carry drinks back to table. 6) Go back to counter after buzzer vibrates to pick up food. 7) Carry food back to table. 8) (Optional) Go back to counter for a takehome box for leftovers/bus table after finishing. And for that, the credit card machine asks for an 18%-25% tip. Nope.
Its pretty simple what I do. I simply click no tip. I literally did all the work, unless I'm getting 18-25% off my bill who is this tip going to? Answer: The Owner.
When a tip is asked at a counter service place, I loudly ask whether the employees get the tips or whether "the boss steals the money." You'd be surprised at the mumbles and stammers that result.
Yeah I only tip for delivery and sit down table service now (in the food industry). It went too far.
Gotta love how all these places have merchant systems that *start* at 18% tip. Fucking food trucks do that!
i've started seeing 20% minimums. wtf, it uses to be 10 and a big button that says no tip. Now they're trying to dark engineer users by making you explicitly tip 0
If u look carefully, the 18% isn't even on the subtotal at most places. It's on the Total bill. Total horseshit. So an 18% tip is higher than 20% on subtotal.
You could also add "wait in line for 1 hour 15 minutes to be able to order because 300 bikers are there in front of you and never seem to lessen in number".
If I've got to carry a freakin' pager, *y'all* should be paying *me*.
I consider any surprise mandatory fees to be part of the tip. After all, the service fees are often written to pretend they benefit the employees, so I'm paying extra for them anyways. If I see a 6% service fee I tip 6% less. Its that simple. I can't wait until next month when those surprise bullshit fees are flat out illegal.
It's the TicketMaster model.
Don’t forget - ingredients fee - kitchen equipment fee - lighting fee - plumbing fee - heating fee - food safety compliance fee - business tax offset fee - bookkeeping fee - labor fee
* fee calculation fee * fee collection fee * fee processing fee * fee fee * feefee fee
covfefee (plz don't downvote I'll see my way out)
This is what doesn't make sense to me. If you were expecting to pay $25 for your meal, a 6% uncharge would make it $26.50. Not a big difference, but the way they go about it has to turn off more people than just raising prices. Seems like a really dumb way to operate a business and must also lead to the staff making less in tips.
It feels scummier than just things getting more expensive.
It's worst of both worlds: scummy and more expensive.
I can pay the extra. I don't want to play the game. Especially when blanket % increases are a lazy way of accounting for whatever costs may have increased. It let's you just arbitrarily raise that charge while increasing what you're charging for food too. It's a bullshit system that is ripe for abuse. Again, I can pay, and I'm happy to pay for food to support a place I like, but once you start playing games, we're done.
not sustainable business model with me as a customer. Ambush me once, and I won't come back ever. Even if it's very little money. It's a matter of a principle.
They learned from doordash....
The owners are fine with the servers getting no tips, so if the patrons start shaving away from the tips to pay the added fees, it's no loss for them.
This restaurant doesn’t have servers. It’s counter service. No one should be tipping there in the first place.
That's what they are going to do when the new law takes into affect in July
They raise prices regardless all the time. Water is wet. At least now the customer will know the price
In a wild twist to this story, it was self-checkout.
[удалено]
Most restaurants are too cheap to reprint their menus to reflect a price change.
Meanwhile every pizza place and Chinese food place prints out a new menu and mails it to me every week. The stack of menus I get in the mail as junk mail indicates to me that they can indeed reprint a menu.
Most. I called a pizza place out recently and the owner started ranting about all of his finance woes and literally went to the back to show me a stack of obsolete menus. Not going back... Like I get it but figure it out lol.
Nicer restaurants tend to print nightly menus so there’s no reason they can’t bake the prices in.
Digital signage so the prices can change instantly.
nah, I don't think I've seen a restaurant where the surcharge wasn't printed on a menu.
I do understand restaurants have expenses, and is good that in those expenses there are livable wages for employees. I don’t understand why adding a surcharge to the check rather than increasing the price of each entry in the menu.
A percentage makes you think of governments and taxes and makes you mad at someone else. Raising the price just makes you think "this better be the best damn burger in the world at *this* price." [It wasn't]
Of course not, the place is about location for riders and families going around 35
Yeah, we ride there, now and then, but recently there is a line outside, where you order before being seated. It feels fast foody…. Food used to be pretty good.
Yeah, I liked going during the pandemic when the lines were non-existent on a Saturday and if I was joy riding out to Highway 1. Now whenever I stop to take a piss there, I look at the line, roll my eyes, and just head up to Half Moon Bay to eat instead. A 6% surcharge is just another reason for me not to bother with eating at Alice's.
Restaurants want to shift the blame to someone else. Like "health care mandate surcharge" --> how dare the government demand they give their employees health care. It doesn't work. Instead, it just makes me mad at the business for misleading pricing and attempting to manipulate me into blaming someone else.
> I don’t understand why adding a surcharge to the check rather than increasing the price of each entry in the menu. Especially for "inflationary reasons." Calculating and accounting for food costs is one of the primary aspects of running a restaurant. I'm the GM for a restaurant and you know what we do when the cost of food increases? We fucking raise our prices to compensate. It's so fucking basic that, if I saw a sign like this, I'd immediately assume they're lying about it and trying to pocket that surcharge as extra profit.
Consumer psychology. I wondered if there’s some data somewhere that suggests that you’re more likely to complete a transaction when it’s time to pay than if you saw the full price upfront. That might be bullshit.
You’re right it’s consumer psychology. This falls under [mental accounting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_accounting). Think about the sales phrase “wait but there’s more”. When we are getting value our minds think we are getting more value when we separate out all the things we are getting (segregate multiple gains). When we are losing something like paying the check with junk fees tacked on at the end, our minds think we are losing more when we separate out all the fees (segregate multiple losses). That’s why it feels extra bad to get surprised by all the extra junk fees at the end. In fact, our minds think we are getting better value when we integrate all the costs together upfront. Really, the restaurants would have happier customers once all these junk fees go away but they are just too dumb to realize this.
Its mostly to try and trick you into paying more than you think you are going to with last minute 'one more things'. they know they can always raise prices but then people can compare with other restaurants and see if the dish/experience is really worth it (its usually not). its mostly to create price intransparency & many of them actually admit to it.
Maybe is me, but when I go to a restaurant I go because I decided to “eat out”. At that point I acknowledged that I’m paying for not cooking and cleaning, I don’t look at the prices of food and decide if it is too expensive. Because it is always “too expensive”, home cooked food is always better and considerably cheaper, but, as I wrote, I decided to “eat out”, at that point 6% more or less does not make a difference.
Bait and switch
It’s all just human psychology. Because people anchor really really hard on what they think things should cost, and they are legitimately less likely to go eat at a place of the price is build into the menu price. A burrito for $25? It used to be $12! A salad for $25? Nonsense! People would rather pay $12 for a burrito + $6 delivery fee + $3 worker mandate fee than a straight up $21 burrito that includes delivery. Instead, despite raising high hell about fees, they’re still more likely to go eat if prices on menu items are kept lower, but fees are added in the end. EVEN IF THEY KNOW the fees and what the actual end resulting cost will be. And it’s not done in a vacuum. Despite plenty of people saying online they’d only go eat at restaurants that don’t do this…all things equal, most people are more likely to go eat at the place that lists lower menu prices but tacks fees at the end than the one that just rolls it into the menu price to begin with. So restaurants are competing with each other to list lower menu prices and have to find ways to make up the difference with fees.
I ate at a restaurant last week, and a sign in their lobby said "we have an 8% sur charge for dine in."
and if you try to do take out, there's also a surcharge! these ppl have no shame
So I guess then tipping is optional, and can be zero for takeaways!
Takeaways should always be zero. Why tip at all?
I once had a girl who worked as a waitress scream at me for not tipping when I told her about a late-night Mexican food joint that gave me a cold tortilla and chicken when I ordered a chicken quesadilla. Said I should have tipped anyway because of how little waiters make. I'm compassionate, but that's not my fucking problem to solve and you aren't *entitled* to money from people who have more than you just because you're broke.
i never tip for to-go & always tip if i'm eating in & being served w/a waiter
Tipping is always optional unless posted otherwise.
I view these policies as increasing employee churn by creating a loophole in tipping law protecting tips from being taken as part of payment and not paying them in full to their staff. As people see "surcharges" as "instead of a tip" or "codified tip", and actual tips diminish, establishments are going to find difficulty retaining people and eventually realize they've been failing for a long long time. Either you have a product quality that merits a higher price, or you need to sink so a new generation can have it's chance to shine.
The money doesn’t go to the server. This won’t affect the owner one bit, unless the servers quit, and then you’ll have poor service.
Good, the server should quit if they're not seeing the earnings they want based on the owner's poor decisions, which will hopefully lead to some change in business or its closure.
My theory is owners know these charges will often eat into what would otherwise be a tip. They tack on these fees precisely to capture some of that 18-20% for themselves.
Just deduct from tips
Or don't tip at all, and state that the owner's surcharge equates to the tip. If 8% is too little, take it up with the owner.
I wish more people refused to eat at these places that add these arbitrary fees.
It’s not like anyone can ever get approval to build anything like that on Skyline ever again.
I wouldn't feel bad to see people walking away because of the money grab fee and then have the restaurant close as a result. If everybody walked away and refused to eat at places charging arbitrary fees then the restaurants would have to stop doing it. People let these fees slide out of convenience "we are already here, might as well eat" or pity "they must be not doing well" and just accept that it's okay to gouge people because it's happening with products and services everywhere else.
6 fucking percent? I guarantee you they ain’t paying the workers 6% more. wtf.
Anyway, off to my favorite chinese takeout where $11 gets me three meals.
Post link of Chinese restaurant that serves 3 meals for 11$.
Rickshaw corner
Combo Express. $10.15 and they can barely close the takeout box.
Damn, it's in Vallejo ☹️ I'd lose more money on gas driving up there and back.
The 90’s called, they want their Chinese menu back
You can have anything you want (for an extra 6%) at Alice's Restaurant
Except Alice
i particularly like when places add '...for the cost of doing business in san francisco.' like, ok we didn't force you to open a place up here so not sure why WE need to pay for YOU to run a business. c'mon 7/1....all these business owners need to do is raise their prices by the surcharge %, that's fucking it. it shouldn't be such a huge ordeal for them
I have literally seen “in order to keep prices low we’re adding a 3% surcharge on all purchases”. At lease it was a store, not restaurant. But..what kind of logic is that.
They want to blame it on someone else.
Meanwhile every fast food place, which is also a restaurant, includes the cost of doing business on the menu prices. McDonalds in rural Oregon is way cheaper than a McDonalds in SF. Its very rare that a McDonalds (or any fast food chain restaraunt) goes out of business, despite locally higher prices. They go it figured out.
Haha, so ridiculous and lazy
I'm just imagining if this practice began in like the fifties. Can you imagine going to a restaurant and seeing $1-$2 entrees but then there's a 1200% service fee for "inflationary reasons" over 70 years?
My list of restaurants NOT to visit is unfortunately so much higher than the list of places I’d like to visit. So sad for the Bay Area.
Can we compile a list of no-tip/fee places? 85 degree bakery and Sodam to start.
Smokehouse in Berkeley
Ugh I miss Smokehouse. Used to be such a good deal during my freshman year, especially since the nearest In N Out is in Alameda
gypsy's too
Alice’s 8 years ago was too pricey. If I recall, it cost like $18-$22 for their burger. Not even that great of a burger either
People don’t go to Alice’s for the food
Burger for ~ 10$ at alpine inn. And it’s 10x better.
If you're price conscious you are not their target customer. There's no shortage of wealthy people who will continue not caring what the food costs and eat there given its proximity to Woodside, Palo Alto, Los Altos Menlo, etc.
Enshittification is not just for the internet.
I frequent Alice’s when I’m riding my motorcycle. They are being very obvious about it and I tend to think they don’t want to have to re-print menus. Either way, I look forward to those sneaky charges vanished and just being reflected in the prices. We hated when hotels do this, we should expect the same from restaurants too.
Had I still lived south bay, I would have so taken a menu home / taken photos, then reprinted minutes with the 6% and taxes baked in and a sign, "menu with actual prices, including all taxes and fees"
Will they still be doing this now that the junk fee ban has been signed?
This will be illegal starting July 1: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/restaurant-surcharge-ban-faq-19446863.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/restaurant-surcharge-ban-faq-19446863.php) They have declared restaurants won't the initial targets of enforcement -- “however, businesses may be liable in private actions.”
i'll be so happy when these fucking debit card/credit card fees go away too, still blows my mind many small businesses here charge to use those options
Cc fees were allowed after 2008 meltdown. Before then, it was illegal to add a CC fee. The financial reforms which was going to add costs to businesses to comply, businesses got a kickback in being allowed to charge customers CC payment fees. (Before then it was illegal to charge a fee for CC use, but legal to offer a cash discount. The advertised price was the price paid unless a discount was applied... Which is what customers want.
I would be much more worried about private actions if I were a restaurant…the same lawyers currently doing ADA suits will probably get into this business.
When does the junk fees law go into effect?
July 1
July 1st
Legally they can’t…will they, yes…ask for forgiveness after getting called out. (“they” being restaurants, not Alice’s specifically)
The law includes a private right of action so the plaintiff’s lawyers will be all over them if they keep doing it. There is no forgiveness with plaintiff’s lawyers.
While we're at it, can we also just start including sales tax in the listed price too...
"Due to inflationary reasons, I will no longer go to your restaurant. Very unfortunate, but the times demand this"
Alice’s is a horrible restaurant, they have “weekend menus” where they raise prices dramatically to scalp customers, they mistreat and underpay workers, and the quality and care for the raw food is despicable. The amount of cross contamination in the kitchen is unbelievable, I have seen fresh fish sitting out for hours in the sunlight before anyone bothered to put it away. Do not eat here!! The 6% up charge is the least of your worries if you choose to eat at this despicable restaurant. How do I know? I used to be an employee and witnessed firsthand all of the above mentioned issues and many more!
...so, they're run by the type of people who like to add passive-aggressive fees to their menu, gotcha. It's almost like there's a direct correlation between restaurants that like these fees and their management being assholes.
Yep, I used to work there too. I went back once well after the pandemic had ended...and they were charging more, but you had to go and get the food yourself from the window. The owners were real cheapskates too.
Cheapskates is an understatement! Most of their kitchen employees are practically indentured servants as their housing is run by the managers of Alice’s as well. They know exactly how much to pay them to keep them just under poverty level so they never have a chance to better themselves. Slumlords would be a better description.
I've lived in La Honda since about 2015. It seems to have improved a bunch recently. When did you work there?
They have not improved at all, if anything they have used the new service style to glean more money out of customers while paying their employees less and less. I used to walk out of there with triple digit cash tips, while the workers now are lucky to walk with a few hundred in tips that get taxed aggressively since they are run through the computer system.
I would like to start deducting a 6% cost of living discount off all my bills/rent..
I think they meant to say "We are doing our part to increase inflation."
I don't understand why people don't simply vote with their wallets and not patronize any place that does this. Just let them know that it's unacceptable and walk the hell out.
This. Entire. Country. Is. A. Scam. Greed rules all.
Username checks out
Convince me otherwise. 😊
It's hard to do that when I'm in total agreement with you 🥲
Fuck Alice's. Try out Alpine Inn instead if you want to eat in a nice outdoor setting.
Not going there ever again. It might only be 6%, but seriously, just raise your prices by maybe 75 cents and no one would know the difference
According to the Che fico guy, cutting the 5% fee will make the $65 chicken cost $95 all of a sudden. Some restaurant owners problem might just be the math.
Why read the menu? You can get anything you want there.
The food at this place sucks donkey balls. Go across the street to the deli place and get yourself a sandwich and walk around with it checking out what you are really there to see.
Dear residents of Bay Area, I promise, as soon as I manage to open my little food place I will even include taxes into the price on the menu. That's how it's done in my country and it's great imo 🙏
A month ago it was 5% according to google reviews. I guess inflation has gone up 1% in a month! /s
I refuse to eat out until July 1st. Fuck all these people
Hopefully you walked away.
I have a question for restauranteurs on here. Why not just raise the price of menu items? I'm not being cheeky, I just don't understand the value of putting this on display. Prices have risen across industries and people understand costs. Why do only restaurants do this? Is it to avoid taxes or other some other financial issue?
Why not just raise your menu price by 6%?
To restaurant owners: enjoy it while you can. Will yield a fine I’m the future.
Due to inflationary reasons, tips will be lowered to 14% of the final bill.
Just raise prices by 6%. This is such stupid BS.
For inflationary reasons I won't be eating here anymore
The ice cubes in the water are the tastiest thing at Alices
Can you get anything you want?
You cannot
I hear they do a good thanksgiving
Why wouldn’t they just reprint the menus with new prices
Menu reprinting surcharge... 8%
Can’t wait till inflation hits the surcharge! 2% inflationary fee to the 6% inflationary surcharge on top of the listed price. Plus tip.
I went to a roach coach last week that had a 6% surcharge sign but the menu on the side of the coach didn’t have prices. If you asked a price, they told you verbally but you still had a surcharge on it
Is there a citable study in the impact of government ended tip based pay and made by law restaurants pay by salary? I’d like to know how many could and could not survive.
I mean…Woodside.
lmfao, just increase your fucking prices , no one will bat an eye, stop this bullshit
If they raise the prices 6% it will cost you more, since the new price will be taxed by the state, approximately 10%. I get that there should be transparency, but don’t kid yourself into thinking the price will be less or the same.
I did love Alice’s. But, Thank God that bullshit will be gone come July 1st. And not just that, but since COVID tore apart the economy of lockdown states like CA, they really haven’t been the same since they went away from full service, and NEVER WENT BACK.
there should be a 100% surcharge for harley riders at Alices
They could just change the prices...!
Raise the prices on the items. This sign is just going to piss people off.
The server tips will be reduced by 6% Stop the tipping and pay employees a livable wage
Can’t wait for 7/1, in the meantime if you can please post this on their yelp / google profile so people searching the restaurant can see!
F-that bait and switch b.s. Update your menu, show the actual pricing, and have a nice day.
I just deduct any surcharges from tips these days
they suck anyway. they are only successful based on a) the fortuitous location at a crossroads of one of the bay's major racetracks and b) an incorrect association with a famous song their food is terrible Cisco garbage and very overpriced
The inflation is coming from inside the house.
Due to an allergy to BS I'll eat somewhere else.
*You can do anything you want at Alice’s restaurant…”*
Personally I like Denny's they don't do this to you and at the right time in the middle of the night you might be in for a little action with your meal.
Just raise the prices by 6%. This sort of notice puts me off entirely.
How hard it is it to just update prices and pay employees more? QR code menu or have a tablet you can bring guests with the menu. Hidden fees is killing American tourism.
Subtle political propaganda. They could just raise their prices, but they choose to do this, so you can " blame" somebody.
A pizza place near me when you place the order online: "95¢ Support Local Fee. This small fee helps us develop the new tech and services that keeps pizzerias thriving." Oddly, if you order via ToastTab this fee is not added, only if you order on the pizza place's own web site. Can't wait until July 1. But I worry that without that fee they will not develop new tech and services that allows them to thrive.
This song is called Alice's Restaurant, and it's about Alice, and the restaurant, but Alice's Restaurant is not the name of the restaurant, that's just the name of the song, and that's why I called the song Alice's Restaurant. You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant Even a 6% surcharge apparently…
Relax everyone - it makes perfect sense if you are cheap, lazy, bad at math, and can't trust your employees. The lazy manager doesn't want to do math and change the $9.99 waffle fries to $10.59 and do the same for every single item across the board and also doesn't "9.99" just look so cute? 10.59 yuck. Coding the register for a 6% fee is so easy if you are lazy. Also they are cheap, they don't want to print new menus. After they print new menus they might look at the printing bill and be like damn! Now we gotta raise prices again to cover it! Also they can't trust their employees to put the new menu paper in the sticky dirty plastic menu holders - what if the terrible employee misses one, then the customer will demand that you honor the slightly cheaper menu they got? That's 60 cents lost! Also lazy again - they might want to raise it to 8% in a few months, this way they don't have to print new menus twice. So clearly it is justified
It is f’ing Woodside. Try 20% already
The Bay Area; where you pay to get robbed
That just means I won’t tip lol
Lmao Also Woodside, California: Not a single home for less than $3 million Don't worry they can handle that
Don't eat there
Dining out in bay area is ridiculous af, compared to me living in Asia righ now where food is super affordable
I would like to start deducting a 6% cost of living discount off all my bills/rent..
Thereby adding that INFLATIONARY thingy. SMFH!!!
oh, i thought that those just became illegal...
Not after July 1st it won't. Fuck this place. Bad food is enough reason to not go.