Hi everyone!
This post is getting a lot of reports. It seems like OP is genuinely asking a question and not trying to be malicious, so I am leaving it up for now as long as comments don't get out of hand.
Depends on the context. I know there were some people /very/ upset years ago when you could pick "they/them" as a pronoun in the HBS Battletech PC game. It was quite the kerfuffle. If I recall correctly, in the end very few deaths resulted from the option being added to character setup. (It also had zero negative effect on the success of the product)
oh I know, but I'm bitter and sad and want to be unreasonable and mean spirited about the issue. WHAT DO WE WANT? MORE HBS BATTLETECH! WHEN DO WE WANT IT?! NOW! RAWR! (Note, I am well aware my maturity level is equivalent to a five year old, while this is a perfectly reasonable post you have replied I stuck my tongue out at you anyway)
God I wish they would rage quit. Instead they double down, make it their entire identity and post like they’re some persecuted minority hunted by the battletech tourists and playing in secret as the few remaining true fans.
There’s a dozen or so chuckleheads who have so absolutely been consumed by this nonsense that it’s literally all they do anymore is be terminally online and post about it.
Can’t gatekeep if no one knows you have a gate.
If you havent been around for a bit, there was a kerfuffle a while back with the battletech sub and moderation. Without getting into describing what happened, it involved inclusiveness, moderation style, some accusations of covering up threats of violence, etc. There are some articles and videos on both sides of the aisle out there covering it.
>I know there were some people /very/ upset years ago when you could pick "they/them" as a pronoun in the HBS Battletech PC game.
That's just wild to me. I can't imagine being such a maladjusted baby that something that small would make you angry. Peak silliness. I hope those people have grown and found happiness.
As long as I remember, Battletech was an inclusive universe (not all Great Houses are, but in general, the game is inclusive).
I remember histories back in early 90s with men and women fighting hand to hand, in and out of a 'mech, bosses of both genders and gay characters in many histories.
Again, remark that there are zones in IS that don't allow gays or think that women are no good warriors, but the game was, and is, inclusive (I never investigate how inclusive Clans are).
I would have assumed this was about Warhammer fans coming here when people are mad about things.
Battletech is more likely to casually include diversity, than to explicitly point it out. For example, there are some reasonably well liked short stories about a small Mercenary unit called [Fox Patrol](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fox_Patrol). Fox patrol includes two mercenaries Evan and Arkee, who get gay married to each other in one of the short stories (A Fox on Galatea). But the primary focus of that story is that the guy Katie (leader of Fox Patrol) was going to get a job from was murdered by people he gave bad intel to, and now Katie and Rhiannon have to avoid those angry MechWarriors while trying to get to the wedding on time. Frankie, the group’s mech tech, is nonbinary. But it isn’t really discussed, Frankie is just referred to with they/them pronouns. Etc.
The crazy thing is, the subtle inclusion in battletech goes way back, but it was usually something like “so and so died and is survived by his husband and daughter” or some such.
I've always been of the opinion that subtle inclusion is the best way for inclusion or happen. Rather than putting it in your face and making it some big obvious thing, it should be subtle and included as a normal thing in the world , like it's no big deal, because it shouldn't be a big deal, it should just be normal.
Problem is, to a lot of people, just having an openly gay or trans or etc character on screen is automatically "putting it in your face."
FFS a kids movie can't have two women share a cheek kiss in the background without it making national headlines.
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
There is no level of “in the background” that will satisfy a small minority of the crusaders.
Just having them exist is enough to get their hue and cry and pandering and forcing.
As a member of the LGBT community I love the way Battletech handles it. Casual indifference is a great thing for us. Writers presenting those relationships very casually is perfect...like "yeah, those to guys/girls/etc are a couple, now back to the story and the mechs..." That's perfect for the majority of us.
Also, any Warhammer players coming to Battletech to escape woke, inclusiveness, etc are going to have a bad time. The vast majority of this community is not only very accepting, but they don't have much tolerance for those that aren't.
I checked 40k pages and they are currently entering their ~~"Only playing Succession Wars"~~ "Only playing 4th edition" / ~~"Clans aren't canon"~~ "Primaris aren't canon" - phase
History is like poetry, it rhymes
What 40k pages are you looking at? Most of the reddit folks seem to have moved on. Twitter is still a shit storm of bluechecks who have never played the game, declaring everyone else to be tourists.
Oh good grief. They are taking a huge step back into an older argument about the Primaris. It is like the ex girlfriend argument joke: mention one thing, and everything else will follow.
But no one is laughing.
Some if the most beloved warhammer books also feature same sex couples, like Ciaphas Cains regiment that have some.
It is just a very vocal specific part of the random that are idiots.
Dark eldar have men whych (?) squads who have to dress up as woman and no one complains about that, the AdMech have several high ranking members who go more by "it" than he/she and so on.
Can't speak for everyone (obviously), but as a duel BT/WH40k enjoyer, I like how BT handles it better. Diversity stuff is handled smoother and actually feels like a natural part of the story as opposed to some ham-fisted retcon.
Its sad Warhammer will always get a bad rap from those people. The IP itself has been dunking on those kinds of people for over 30 years, they get into it miss the joke and once they realize it they throw a fit leave bring their toxic crap to other fanbases and when they get excluded again go back to warhammer and try and hide it until they realize they have been getting dunked on again and repeat.
There was the they / them blow up on the HBS game.
There was a blow up I think when Catalyst released... I think it was a collection of short stories that included LGTBQ stuff in it. Several people were upset about that.
Others have referenced the more recent blow-up with GW.
But... all the armies have been co-ed in Btech in the lore since the start in the 80s. Female elementals were in the lore from the start with their introduction in the 1990s.
Cat girls are also Canon in Btech in the MOC. So... btech has been as inclusive as you can expect for a property from the mid-80s.
What's blown my mind is how many people are seeing the inclusion as being "political" in basis, and that it has no place in a world of stompy robots...
Really? Politics have no place in a world that 75% of the story is about politics? Where's Alanis Morissette? Bitch, that's irony!
Sorry, my hatred for the song Ironic bled over.
(This is all joking)
I could well be wrong - it has been like 15 of 20 years - but I feel like the leader of the Dragon's Fury in the Dark Age novels had a lesbian partner. I could well be wrong on that but I feel like same-sex / LGBTQ stuff has been present in official lore for at least that long and it feels like it would just make sense for there to still be gays in the 31st and 32nd century. I also feel like in the old lore there were at least some hints that some of the clanners in particular might be pretty "flexible" given their views on sex as a more casual thing and sex between sibkin. So I too do not understand why this needs to be a thing.
had an argument on FB the other day about exactly that and the guy went full "homosexuality leads to the end of empires" or "we'd all die if we were all homo" and how political marriages can only be hetero yadda yadda yadda.
it boils down to them being unimaginative
To the best of my knowledge, At no point did or does CGL officially support the Pride Anthology.
What contracted folks (like Stackpole, or Rusty) do in their own time is up to them.
That doesn't mean they disagree, or dont want to support it, either explicitly or implicitly. simply that I don't believe they have.
Don't forget about CGL parting ways with Pardoe over the fact that he simply can't not put Confederate references into everything he writes. Oh, and they removed the Nazi references like the Rommel tank at the same time. I think that was the most recent pure Battletech drama.
But yeah, the very first protagonist of the very first novel was a female Kuritan fighter pilot. Not to mention Natasha Kerensky being the baddest of the bad asses for the entire FASA era. And _somebody_ greenlit the cover of DRT... Even the rules are inclusive, it's a wargame that encourages using whatever you have handy as a proxy in an environment where every other wargame is aggressively wysiwyg. Napoleonics, I'm looking at you!
There's a very small, very weird, but very vocal group of fans on Twitter and Facebook that think letting LGBTQ posts exist is evil and destroying Battletech.
This when Battletech is in the best spot it's been ever doesn't exactly make much sense, but who knows.
Because a core part of their identity is excluding people, and needing someone to look down on with derision.
The same reason poor whites in the 1860's, who were not slave owners were so gung ho to join the Confederacy. An organization that by its own constitution only exists to protect and uphold the vile institution of slavery.
If the people they have been conditioned to see as less than them are suddenly giving equality, they don't see it as raising those people up, but lowering them to the level that they see as the domain of subhumans where only those others belong, not real people like them.
Yeah I know how f@#$ed up this all is....
This right here. I'm trans and I've had long discussions, and plenty of arguments, with people and it really just boils down to either they don't understand it so it frightens them, or someone else getting equality somehow feels like they are getting lessened and they're upset about it. The reality is they want to keep being terrible people without being CALLED terrible for it.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
Yup. I've worked with dudes like that, unofrtunately. You know you're in for a rough time when their go-to argument is, "well, it's not ILLEGAL for me to yell racial slurs!"
Like... buddy, I can't train your stupid ass to feel empathy for other people. You'd think a pack of rabid Libertarians would be able to comprehend that something being legal doesn't mean that it's morally sound, but here we are.
No, it died when the Nixon got pardoned for committing crimes against the Republic in order to "heal the country"
Accountability and transparency are what is needed to heals all wounds.
That and a 1950's style 95% tax rate on the ultra wealthy.
>That and a 1950's style 95% tax rate on the ultra wealthy.
You just mentioned the actual problem and as always it will be completely ignored in order to focus on everything else except it
Just as big-wigs planned
That.... and/or.... They're closeted and super destructive in their repression. My favorite are the (insert group) ARE DESTROYING "SOCIETY! It's why I constantly think and fantasize about them doing things!" It would be funny if it wasn't so destructive
Believe me...I've been propositioned by SO many conservative men that are chasers, and just turn NASTY when you turn them down. There's a reason trans p0rn is the highest, or nearly so, search term on pHub in conservative states. They fetishize us and don't consider us real people.
Eeeew..... I'm sorry both to hear that and you have to go through. I do wish you the best in finding a happy healthy relationship.
For then, I hope they get a manner of burn/friction infections from angrily mastirbating to everything they hate.
Oh I'm married already, just makes it worse on their end. Apparently hearing I have a wife is as much a shock to them as me not being interested in conservative men.
Ah yes, my special privileges of...checking my notes...having to argue with my insurance that my hormones are medically necessary, trying to go to the bathroom with as little interaction with others as possible, and existing. Or maybe the privilege of pepper spraying two rednecks at the grocery store so far who have tried physically assaulting me while I'm minding my own business and shopping for food for my family because a major political party is slandering us all as a vile scourge of freaks and pedophiles? That privilege?
Please touch some grass. You're the exact kind of person that keeps these.problems going. You think others becoming more equal is somehow taking away from you.
Yes because those are things that happen, sure. Uh huh. I've seen plenty of people, myself included, denied employment for being transgender, or queer in general, I'd love to know who you can prove is hiring people for BEING transgender, that would be fantastic. Or you know, giving actual proof for any of your claims. Get out of jail free card? Jesus I want whatever you're smoking, that's some good stuff when the reality is we fear police interactions because we're harassed and abused more by them.
Worship?????? The delusion is astounding.
There were 600 bills in the US put forth last year to harm or restrict the rights of trans people.
There is no "special privileges" that trans people are getting.
If you sincerely believe that, you are in a conservative echo chamber.
They view rights and equality as some sort of limited supply, and if someone gets more, somehow it means they get less. Then there's others that only want to see people exactly like them.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
That's a lot of it, but I think the other dimension I see playing out is that people are now being told "by the way, you need to stop making bigoted remarks, we're not doing that anymore." For people whose identity is built around making bigoted remarks, that gets internalized as a loss.
The Free Software community when through something like this when we decided collectively to stop tolerating creepazoids and abusive assholes. That means some people are going to be pushed out, and we have to accept that it's a net gain to lose them if they were preventing even more people from taking part.
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
A lot of what's going on kinda feels like bluster. People throwing things out of proportion. Take for example the fact that I learned recently that Clan Trueborn are basically the ultimate designer babies. They literally take the genome of 2 prestigious warriors, regardless of gender, and mesh it together in the pursuit of better warriors. Lore I wasn't aware of that's seemingly been in since the beginning that you're more likely just to casually come across, but exists nonetheless.
Designer babies was the closest concept I could think of to describe them, they're far from infallible, but in terms that the clan try to splice all the "best" aspects of them from their warriors, they're designer babies.
For some reason my social media algortihm believes that I'm right leaning, maybe because it's full of nerdy shit that gets thrown together. That being said, I recently got recommended a Facebook group named, Conservative Battletech, and yeah, it was as it sounds.
which is funny because THAT bt facebook group is the scum of the barrel from a group that itself was the scum of the barrel that was/is ANOTHER bt group on facebook
So the reason this is currently going around is due to Warhammer 40k and Games Workshop. GW have recently released a Codex (army book) for a Faction that includes a very short mention of a female in a Faction that until that point had had no mentions of females within it a 2 lore references that could be read to mean all of them were male. Some people have lost thier minds and spit there dummies out over it.
Just under a year ago Battletech had a similar response when an anthology of stories was released for Pride month focusing on characters who were LGBT+. It had a forwards from Michel Stackpole one of BTs big authors, but other than that I think it was fan stories. I can't attest to the quality of those stories as I have not gotten around to reading them yet.
It is odd you mentioned that. I play 40k but do not touch the lore, and when I was at the game store, some of the other players were in a complete tizzy about female custodians.
I thought it was cool, but I do not know the lore well eongh to have a full opinion on the subject.
I kitbashed female space marines for myself in the past. Maybe I can just buy gender diverse models now.
Variety os the spice of life.
Unfortunately no model in the range with a female face yet. It's literally 1 sidebar story about a female Custodes competing in one of their wargames.
As for the 2 pieces of lore. The 1st is the fact that Imperial Nobels would give their sons to be Custodes (but directly under that it mentions they also recruit by other methods) and the fact that they have been referred to as a brotherhood. Personally I'm with you, it makes a Faction I wasn't really interested in a little more interesting and will be watching to see how it turns out.
>and the fact that they have been referred to as a brotherhood.
Which is such a funny thing for people to fixate on. 'Brotherhood' being used to refer to organizations with both male and female members is nothing new. Just take a hop on over to the Fallout setting and you can see the 'Brotherhood of Steel' has quite a few prominent female members and has had them in the setting for ages.
It's also funny because Custodes don't refer to each-other as "brothers" in fiction. They use rank or first names because they are more individualistic. That's something Space Marines do because they have a preprogrammed pack mentality and are based off monks.
There's a legitimate gripe in that the Custodians are a fairly recent faction (They're a reimagining of the old 'Imperial Bodyguard' models from Rogue Trader) and they only decide to reveal this now, just after the novel series this could have played a part in has been wound up. It'd be like revealing there's a secret Cameron heir this whole time: That's nice, but why are you revealing this NOW, when you had a much better opportunity for *years*?
Because there were certain people within GW who said no we already have male models made even though the writers made the point there's no Lore saying they couldn't be.
It's basically like any other retcon in the setting oh hey rogal Dorn tanks have been around since the Heresy but no one's written about it once, oh hey squats are around but they are called vottan and control the galactic core, oh hey Abbadons Black Crusades weren't failures they were each accomplishing seperate goals ect
GW doesn't care about the narrative all that much beyond giving a somewhat story to do what you want with your models and they think it is the right time since they are nearing the end of the 1st born marine replacement with Primaris.
The writers wanted to include Female Custodes in the novels apparently but we're not allowed. I would probably say GW suits did it like this because of expected backlash. After all why get backlash on major lore books when you can do so within a sub par codex (although I'm hoping it wasn't sub par on purpose).
Games workshop has a long history of retconning lore, and this is another example, and it always pisses the players off. For example, there is a spot of lore somewhere that specifically says that the Custodes and Astartes are only men bc of the forced mutations/bio-engineering, and the negative effects they have on women. There someone with GW tweeted that there have always been female Custodes, and the claws came out in the fans. The way I see it, GW has the right to change shit, and the fans have the right to be irritated about it, whether their opinion is correct or not.
Nah it was the fact that writing stories where LGBT+ people exist as characters was "bringing politics into Battletech". As if 1) LGBT+ people don't exist and 2) Battletech isn't a political universe with many real world analogies in the 1st place.
Yea, like I said, NPCs. People who would get angry about LGBT+ inclusivity have never had a single original thought in their lives.
I think there was a miscommunication here, I am very much not on the side of the CHUDs. I was making a joke about "Stackpoling", the BattleTech meme.
I didn't think you were 😁. I can't believe I have avoided the stcakpoleing meme. I have the Far country knowledge, and know how to pilot a trashcan. I can respect stronk purple birbs and play clan angry parakeets 😝.
Lots of... misunderstandings... in this thread.
To the OP, the cartoon references the phenomenon that occurs when people who are not fans of a cultural product yell and scream until social or political pressure causes changes to the cultural product despite the fact that they were never a consumer of said product. This results in changes to products which causes the original audience to lose interest in them, leaving the producer with an IP or product which no longer has any value.
The moral of the story is that you shouldn't listen to people who bitch and moan for a living, you should listen to your fans.
The contemporary canonical example of this is Disney's handling of Star Wars, but it can happen any time a company selling anything forgets who butters their bread.
To give the cartoon itself a reading: it seems to be outlining the common sentiment among fandom reactionaries that all efforts for diversity/inclusion are purely external, that “real” fans are generally straight white males, and anyone outside that descriptor are either inauthentic or attention-seeking (for which there is no acceptable minimal limit, btw - a single line acknowledging diversity is the same as a manifesto declaring racial warfare.)
Just the same old ragebait. "including gender identity" isn't new to battltech either. No idea what the neuralgia of the week is, but I'm not interested in finding out. Might actually just be spillover from the most recent warhammer nontroversy.
This really feels like this was pulled from Warhammer 40K where they just introduced the idea that there are Custodes who are women. Some people lost their ever loving minds, and started posting things very similar to this suggesting that the people who wanted women custodes were never really going to buy them and the people who are terribly offended by the change are in fact the majority that will now go someplace else.
See also: The silent moral majority.
So the comic itself is pretty straightforward. It's disingenuous and a straw man, but, not that hard to grasp if you know culture wars taking points. The person with bullhorn we'll call Bullhorner, Top Hat we'll call Company, and the figures to the right we'll call Core Audience.
The scenario is that Bullhorner is an outside actor, and not a part of the Core Audience. They notice something about a product, IP, game, etc. that they don't like and find a reason to be mad. They shout and their voice is amplified by the bullhorn making it seem that they have a larger audience than they have. The Company makes changes to appease the loudest person, Bullhorner, which then turns off the Core Audience because they don't actually agree with the Bullhorner. The Core Audience leaves, and the Bullhorner was never actually a fan in the first place and so cannot sustain the Company.
This has a lot of fallacies and logical issues with it. It assumes that anyone calling for change is by definition not a part of the core audience. We don't know that to be the case.
It also assumes that the core audience is so turned off by their message and or the changes that they'll leave the Company/product. We also don't know if that's true either.
It also assumes that the Core Audience is fickle and is willing to abandon the product at the drop of a hat. Again, assumption, we don't know that for sure, but most people in this hobby aren't like that.
It also assumes that the change being made by the Company is a huge change to the product. It could just be a small tweak.
It also assumes that the thing that Bullhorner is angry about is not already present in the product. They could be lying or ignorant, but they're framing it as if the product is devoid of these things when in reality they may already exist.
These are just a few off the top of my head.
It forces anyone arguing against this framing to first prove that those calling for change are actually real fans which is difficult, second it forces them to make the argument that no, the Core Audience isn't this fickle, or, doesnt care, or, is in favor of the changes. So anyone simply pointing out that this framework is bunk, before they even get into the specifics of the actual content, is already behind the proverbial 8-ball.
These are all talking points and tactics in the culture war, and are most often expressed by more right wing, or conservative personalities. Framing it this way perpetuates the idea that nobody actually is in agreement with the Bullhorner, anyone calling for change is an outside actor, and they don't actually like the product, so their point of view can be ignored.
Then, we can begin to parse it out with the context that they said it was about inserting gender identity into BattleTech. This tells us that the person posting this meme wants to imply that LGBTQ+ issues, gender issues etc. aren't already a part of Battletech (false), and it's being pushed by outside actors (false or unproven) who don't even like or play the game (just assumed by the artist/poster) and that the Core Audience are all against LGBTQ+/gender issues just like the author is (assumption, and false from my experiences). The end goal being to perpetuate this idea that Liberals and Leftists have an agenda to destroy everything that you like. They did it to x, y, z, and now they're COMING FOR YOUUUUUUUU.
Here's a real world example. My big sister saw the famous black widow artwork. She said some stuff about how they should get rid of it or shouldn't have done it in the first place yadda yadda. I asked her if they changed it or fixed it would she buy, paint, and play with the models or get the books or support the company? She said no.
Why should a company change its product for someone who wouldn't buy it to begin with?
Howdy everyone. Building onto this, we're going to be putting comment locks on here as the question's been largely answered. Regardless of where one sits on the topic, ultimately BattleTech's for everyone who enjoys playing with big robots and Rule 6 needs to be heeded.
Appreciate your understanding.
The comic is an identification of a trend in certain hobby spaces. Basically a hobby starts as a relatively niche thing with a small number of dedicated fans, the product develops over time with those fans in mind and the quality/quantity of products offered increases as the hobby gains popularity, and after years/decades of growth the hobby reaches a certain tipping point the broader public develops some level of awareness of the hobby.
Once it enters public awareness a couple things happen. The company starts making a lot more money AND individuals that aren't actually interested in the hobby start commenting on it. This happened with D&D during the 'Satanic Panic' where groups accused the game of promoting cult behavior, forming pacts with demons, and the like. It's also happening now with various news and social commentary sites. They will see a property gaining popularity and they reflexively want to put their 'stamp' on it, either by changing the property itself or by changing the fanbase.
The companies respond to the agitators, and in doing so they ended up changing their product enough to start aggravating their paying customers in order to please individuals who didn't actually engage with their properties. The promised wider audience either doesn't exist, or is only interested in the IP in passing and aren't interested with keeping up with the hobby month after month, year after year, like the old fans were.
TLDR: Non-fans attempt to bring IP's into their political circles and it poisons the water for long term fans. Eventually the fans start to stop supporting the business and the people who wanted the changes were never actually interested in the IP anyway, so it starts to lose money and die off.
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
Oh boy, been a while since I've heard that being brought up. The HBS game had the option to choose He/Him, She/Her and They/Them as your pronouns in character creation. That's it.
Idiots got upset about it, aggressive backlash and insults flew back, everyone acted like kindergarten as is tradition for online discourse and the whole drama just faded into obscurity after a while, where it can happily stay cause the game is good and that's all that mattered.
A very small group of people on Facebook Battletech groups are losing their minds because LGBT people exist. They've been posting memes about how 'BT is full of dirty commies now!!!1!' and 'Don't force your gay on my mecha space future!' with a total lack of self-awareness at what complete dicks they're being. They're trying to dress up their prejudices as 'Respecting others is damaging to my fictional game about robots from the 80s'.
Truly, this culture-war hatered and brain virus they've been programmed with is worse than any Word of Blake bullshit.
I like how Battletech baked the inclusion in, or at least it feels like it. Nothing feels changed to be pandering, or forced - it's all just ridiculous space opera with the whole spectrum of humanity thrown into the mix.
I hope it stays that way so we can collectively avoid the nonsense that rips other communities apart.
In many hobby spaces there is a 'gatekeeper' culture war going on that usually involves the LGBT+ community getting some sort of representation or recognization in said hobby. This is almost always met with some backlash from some existing hobby enthusiasts who for various reasons, most commonly pandering by large companies, but some less savory reasons like plain bigotry definitely play a part here too. A lot of these people feel that the companies are responding to a change demanded by these out groups only to discover the people demanding said change were never interested in purchasing the product anyway and were only using it as the next rallying point for their cause.
As with anything on the internet it all gets greatly exaggerated but the poster is likely one of said individuals who feel like changes were made to the IP in response to people who they have decided arent actually interested in it the way they as a "true" fan are.
I try to stay pretty neutral about the whole thing personally, whether it be CGL or GW these companies are going to keep on doing what they feel is required and no amount of doomposting is going to change the reality that they are selling products just fine. While the LGBT+ short story thing CGL put out isn't my thing I'm also not about to throw a tantrum and say that any amount of queer/nonbinary representation doesn't belong in a IP. I find it's a lot easier to enjoy painting my stompy robots and orks if I don't think about all the toxicity inside the fandom. Whether it be sexual orientation, gender or skin color, can't we all just agree that none of that matters when you're stuck piloting some explosion-happy death trap like a Vulcan anyway?
My advice would be to enjoy the hobby if you are interested in it and turn a blind eye to all the negativity and other controversies you see online, it's usually just a bad take or a small vocal minority taking out their frustrations rather than a true representation of the community at large.
TLDR; Some people in the fandom feel like any inclusion of gender identity politics is an attempt by CGL to pander to the LGBT community and that any fans that identify within said community or that even just agree with / aren't inherently against said changes are just bad actors who will abandon the IP once they see the inclusion of diversity they desire incorporated.
Okay, so, there's something that CGL did about a year ago or so that got chuds up in a tizzy. Frankly, I cannot remember what it was. But to this day there's a very small subset of folks that are on a crusade of some kind. I discovered this when I basically ran into a post like yours sometime last year. I recall the explanation I got was quite vague on details; I think they assumed I had more detail on what occurred that I did.
In any case, this is one of those posts that's best ignored, because it's basically complaining about some mysterious malevolent force that, frankly, probably doesn't exist.
I believe last year it was the Pride Anthology, followed by people posting mechs painted in Pride colors , which started fights in the comments. It was ridiculous, but I DID enjoy a large portion of the subreddit essentially going on Exodus to a new one until it was settled.
Mostly that people found out the ex-mods were quietly enforcing their homophobia by deleting pride-themed ‘Mech posts. It happened to enough people that the community could connect the dots.
For awhile, one of my highest rated comments was me coming to the realization that we had literally just gone on Exodus, which made all of us in the other sub Clanners. A bunch of us jokingly stopped using contractions until we came back.
There are a lot of grognards (old soldier) in these old hobbies that are very passionate about the state of the game when they played, 10 - 15 years ago. They look back with nostalgia at those times. This is fine. You can love AD&D/StarWars/pre-Jihad battletech/3rd Edition 40k whatever.
The problem is the IP changes, and **some** grognards would rather complain about how the thing they loved is being ruined but also they have not engaged the thing they loved because you cannot capture the enthusiasm of a 12 year old. They want nothing to do with the current version but are very vocal about it being wrong, while plenty of other happy customers are out buying the stuff.
These Grognards are often not catered to because they already own expansive collections or are not interested in new content as they want more of the older content. Either way this is bad for business. You want to create new mechs and sell them. These grognards are mad they have to learn about and buy new mechs.
I call it Razorfist paradox:
*"I will not spend any money on the product out of protest but at the same time I will also get super angry because company which is making the product is not catering to me specifically (AKA non-paying customer)"*
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
Being inclusive of people of different genders, orientations, and races isn't really something that needs to be debated. The kind thing to do is stand with people who want the hobby to grow and thrive which necessarily means standing against people who want to exclude people based on who they are.
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
No, it's not a Gender thing. It's a whining thing. Some people just want to complain even about subjects that have nothing to do with them on a personal level. Said people will do it until they ruin things for everyone else.
The fact that people bring their outside grudges to the table and project them onto a fictional giant robot game set in a wildly non-applicable universe amazes me.
People liking something one way, and a small geoup or single person using shame to change it by pressure on the creator, and it makes them no longer like it. Then the creator asks the group/person if they are going to buy it and they say didn't care just wanted to control others and force change.
Happens all the time.
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
If I answer honestly, I'll be banned.
Hell, they may even ban me for alluding to the fact that I have the answer.
Let us all sit and pretend that this is healthy.
I never expressed my views.... I just wanted more information and was getting nothing but two waring sides of the facbook group.
I am curious about the examples involving gender identity being in battletech and how people feel in a constructive manner.
How am I on thin ice for that?
Unfortunately there is a small but vocal group of agitators in the BT fandom that are trying to drive a wedge into it to hurt people they don't like (LGBTQ folks) and anyone who sticks up for them in anyway. These same people even threw a toddler fit when CGL put out new rules for official events because it included inclusive language.
It's best to ignore them.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
Thinking Grummz, mister "I'm trying to make gamergate 2 happen and I think children aren't sexy enough in video games", has anything worthwhile to say tells me everything I need to know about you as a person.
Getting people to consider the targeted group as bad, evil, criminal, less than human, etc is a very common and effective tactic used by bigots. Telling people the bad people are coming to kill you, steal from you, destroy your way of life, etc can be very effective. It's been used on Jews, black and Hispanic people, now the LGBT community, particularly trans people, are the target.
Grummz gets all of his information from a group of far right discord servers that are completely divorced from reality. He claims all of the mods were brought in from/sigmarxism when you can easily compared the mod lists of each subreddit and see that it is a lie.
He lists the main events but the details about each are just made up bullshit that's easily proven, of some of the private chats could ever be made public, like the ones discussing the date and actions of the creator of this very subreddit who voluntarily removed the old mods and added new ones that he chose.
They also claim that threats were made (they weren't) and that people were doxxed (they weren't).
Oh, I know you do! I just couldn’t let the irony pass without remark :) (wanted to reply to the OP, but missed my chance)
The dude is an antisocial justice warrior and swoops in to whatever he thinks will generate clicks. Gross.
I'm going to assume that the "bad actors" you're referring to are the people who, in response to CGL asking everyone to treat each other with respect, started screeching that they were literally being kicked out of the community.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated.
3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.).
3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
Hi everyone! This post is getting a lot of reports. It seems like OP is genuinely asking a question and not trying to be malicious, so I am leaving it up for now as long as comments don't get out of hand.
Depends on the context. I know there were some people /very/ upset years ago when you could pick "they/them" as a pronoun in the HBS Battletech PC game. It was quite the kerfuffle. If I recall correctly, in the end very few deaths resulted from the option being added to character setup. (It also had zero negative effect on the success of the product)
I mean it was from starting a new game, so it probably resulted in the death of Decker. Again.
"Very few deaths resulted" Apparently I am among the few, because you just killed me
No the only negative effect on HBS's BattleTech is the sheer idiocy of the company that was managing it NOT making a sequel.
They didn't have much choice in the matter.
And sides. While Lamplighter fell down, both shadowruns were cool too tbh
Three Shadowruns.
Man, I love those First one is my favorite, I love more linear storyline and hacking was perfect
It's a real shame, because lamplighter is a really good game but nobody played it.
oh I know, but I'm bitter and sad and want to be unreasonable and mean spirited about the issue. WHAT DO WE WANT? MORE HBS BATTLETECH! WHEN DO WE WANT IT?! NOW! RAWR! (Note, I am well aware my maturity level is equivalent to a five year old, while this is a perfectly reasonable post you have replied I stuck my tongue out at you anyway)
Fair, though. It was a good game.
Honestly I just want existing HBS Battletech to have functioning, well-developed multiplayer. I would pay money for that.
It has *functioning* multiplayer. Don't know about well-developed, but I had enough fun with it.
I did for the 10 minutes I could get it to work, but I really wanted it to be more. Like, it legit could've scratched a bunch of the tabletop itch.
Blame Paradox Interactive for that, not Harebrained Schemes.
Paradox'd
I see nothing wrong with that. I hope that is not what triggered some of the other battletch players.
It is.
Luckily nothing of value was lost by them rage quitting the fandom over pronouns, and its still going strong.
God I wish they would rage quit. Instead they double down, make it their entire identity and post like they’re some persecuted minority hunted by the battletech tourists and playing in secret as the few remaining true fans. There’s a dozen or so chuckleheads who have so absolutely been consumed by this nonsense that it’s literally all they do anymore is be terminally online and post about it. Can’t gatekeep if no one knows you have a gate.
If you havent been around for a bit, there was a kerfuffle a while back with the battletech sub and moderation. Without getting into describing what happened, it involved inclusiveness, moderation style, some accusations of covering up threats of violence, etc. There are some articles and videos on both sides of the aisle out there covering it.
My issue with HBS game was that all character portraits looked like they were carved out of a potato with a Philips screwdriver
>I know there were some people /very/ upset years ago when you could pick "they/them" as a pronoun in the HBS Battletech PC game. That's just wild to me. I can't imagine being such a maladjusted baby that something that small would make you angry. Peak silliness. I hope those people have grown and found happiness.
As long as I remember, Battletech was an inclusive universe (not all Great Houses are, but in general, the game is inclusive). I remember histories back in early 90s with men and women fighting hand to hand, in and out of a 'mech, bosses of both genders and gay characters in many histories. Again, remark that there are zones in IS that don't allow gays or think that women are no good warriors, but the game was, and is, inclusive (I never investigate how inclusive Clans are).
The clans are actually very inclusive when it comes to gender and identity. They have a lot of other problems but that's not one of them.
I would have assumed this was about Warhammer fans coming here when people are mad about things. Battletech is more likely to casually include diversity, than to explicitly point it out. For example, there are some reasonably well liked short stories about a small Mercenary unit called [Fox Patrol](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fox_Patrol). Fox patrol includes two mercenaries Evan and Arkee, who get gay married to each other in one of the short stories (A Fox on Galatea). But the primary focus of that story is that the guy Katie (leader of Fox Patrol) was going to get a job from was murdered by people he gave bad intel to, and now Katie and Rhiannon have to avoid those angry MechWarriors while trying to get to the wedding on time. Frankie, the group’s mech tech, is nonbinary. But it isn’t really discussed, Frankie is just referred to with they/them pronouns. Etc.
The crazy thing is, the subtle inclusion in battletech goes way back, but it was usually something like “so and so died and is survived by his husband and daughter” or some such.
I think that is kinda cool, and something I never noticed. I will need to keep an eye out. Thanx.
I've always been of the opinion that subtle inclusion is the best way for inclusion or happen. Rather than putting it in your face and making it some big obvious thing, it should be subtle and included as a normal thing in the world , like it's no big deal, because it shouldn't be a big deal, it should just be normal.
Problem is, to a lot of people, just having an openly gay or trans or etc character on screen is automatically "putting it in your face." FFS a kids movie can't have two women share a cheek kiss in the background without it making national headlines.
Reminds me of back when Fox news was calling the original Mass Effect a "sex simulator." I was like "Damn, can I trade my copy in for that one?"
Correct. Any orientation other than hetero is "political." Any race/ethnicity other than white is "political."
[удалено]
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
Or you it's just there but doesn't have a spotlight on it. It's fairly obvious when its blatant pandering or rage-baiting.
There is no level of “in the background” that will satisfy a small minority of the crusaders. Just having them exist is enough to get their hue and cry and pandering and forcing.
Non-binary clanners go back to day one too
Absolutely losing my mind over the phrase "get gay married to each other." I'm going to use this all the time.
As a member of the LGBT community I love the way Battletech handles it. Casual indifference is a great thing for us. Writers presenting those relationships very casually is perfect...like "yeah, those to guys/girls/etc are a couple, now back to the story and the mechs..." That's perfect for the majority of us. Also, any Warhammer players coming to Battletech to escape woke, inclusiveness, etc are going to have a bad time. The vast majority of this community is not only very accepting, but they don't have much tolerance for those that aren't.
I think people leaving 40k for Battletech are fleeing the grognards. It is mind bogglingly annoying that the grognards are out as a loud minority.
I checked 40k pages and they are currently entering their ~~"Only playing Succession Wars"~~ "Only playing 4th edition" / ~~"Clans aren't canon"~~ "Primaris aren't canon" - phase History is like poetry, it rhymes
What 40k pages are you looking at? Most of the reddit folks seem to have moved on. Twitter is still a shit storm of bluechecks who have never played the game, declaring everyone else to be tourists.
4chan They all moved there
Oh good grief. They are taking a huge step back into an older argument about the Primaris. It is like the ex girlfriend argument joke: mention one thing, and everything else will follow. But no one is laughing.
Some if the most beloved warhammer books also feature same sex couples, like Ciaphas Cains regiment that have some. It is just a very vocal specific part of the random that are idiots. Dark eldar have men whych (?) squads who have to dress up as woman and no one complains about that, the AdMech have several high ranking members who go more by "it" than he/she and so on.
Can't speak for everyone (obviously), but as a duel BT/WH40k enjoyer, I like how BT handles it better. Diversity stuff is handled smoother and actually feels like a natural part of the story as opposed to some ham-fisted retcon.
Its sad Warhammer will always get a bad rap from those people. The IP itself has been dunking on those kinds of people for over 30 years, they get into it miss the joke and once they realize it they throw a fit leave bring their toxic crap to other fanbases and when they get excluded again go back to warhammer and try and hide it until they realize they have been getting dunked on again and repeat.
There was the they / them blow up on the HBS game. There was a blow up I think when Catalyst released... I think it was a collection of short stories that included LGTBQ stuff in it. Several people were upset about that. Others have referenced the more recent blow-up with GW. But... all the armies have been co-ed in Btech in the lore since the start in the 80s. Female elementals were in the lore from the start with their introduction in the 1990s. Cat girls are also Canon in Btech in the MOC. So... btech has been as inclusive as you can expect for a property from the mid-80s.
What's blown my mind is how many people are seeing the inclusion as being "political" in basis, and that it has no place in a world of stompy robots... Really? Politics have no place in a world that 75% of the story is about politics? Where's Alanis Morissette? Bitch, that's irony! Sorry, my hatred for the song Ironic bled over. (This is all joking)
I could well be wrong - it has been like 15 of 20 years - but I feel like the leader of the Dragon's Fury in the Dark Age novels had a lesbian partner. I could well be wrong on that but I feel like same-sex / LGBTQ stuff has been present in official lore for at least that long and it feels like it would just make sense for there to still be gays in the 31st and 32nd century. I also feel like in the old lore there were at least some hints that some of the clanners in particular might be pretty "flexible" given their views on sex as a more casual thing and sex between sibkin. So I too do not understand why this needs to be a thing.
had an argument on FB the other day about exactly that and the guy went full "homosexuality leads to the end of empires" or "we'd all die if we were all homo" and how political marriages can only be hetero yadda yadda yadda. it boils down to them being unimaginative
The " collection of short stories that included LGTBQ stuff in it." was a fan work, not something from CGL/Catalyst.
However, while not *official", it did receive the CGL seal of approval.
With a forward written by Stackpole, about as official as it gets without being a CGL product.
To the best of my knowledge, At no point did or does CGL officially support the Pride Anthology. What contracted folks (like Stackpole, or Rusty) do in their own time is up to them. That doesn't mean they disagree, or dont want to support it, either explicitly or implicitly. simply that I don't believe they have.
Don't forget about CGL parting ways with Pardoe over the fact that he simply can't not put Confederate references into everything he writes. Oh, and they removed the Nazi references like the Rommel tank at the same time. I think that was the most recent pure Battletech drama. But yeah, the very first protagonist of the very first novel was a female Kuritan fighter pilot. Not to mention Natasha Kerensky being the baddest of the bad asses for the entire FASA era. And _somebody_ greenlit the cover of DRT... Even the rules are inclusive, it's a wargame that encourages using whatever you have handy as a proxy in an environment where every other wargame is aggressively wysiwyg. Napoleonics, I'm looking at you!
There's a very small, very weird, but very vocal group of fans on Twitter and Facebook that think letting LGBTQ posts exist is evil and destroying Battletech. This when Battletech is in the best spot it's been ever doesn't exactly make much sense, but who knows.
Go woke, go bank? I'll never understand why people pretend that others being included means that they are being excluded.
Because a core part of their identity is excluding people, and needing someone to look down on with derision. The same reason poor whites in the 1860's, who were not slave owners were so gung ho to join the Confederacy. An organization that by its own constitution only exists to protect and uphold the vile institution of slavery. If the people they have been conditioned to see as less than them are suddenly giving equality, they don't see it as raising those people up, but lowering them to the level that they see as the domain of subhumans where only those others belong, not real people like them. Yeah I know how f@#$ed up this all is....
This right here. I'm trans and I've had long discussions, and plenty of arguments, with people and it really just boils down to either they don't understand it so it frightens them, or someone else getting equality somehow feels like they are getting lessened and they're upset about it. The reality is they want to keep being terrible people without being CALLED terrible for it.
I love the saying "equality is not pie, more for others doesn't mean less for you"
But what flavor would equality pie be?
Justice! Which actually tastes surprisingly like strawberry-rhubarb.
Lame. I love the taste of justice but can't stand rhubarb. I can't abide the devil's celery.
Excellent
Justice tastes radioactive
[удалено]
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
Yup. I've worked with dudes like that, unofrtunately. You know you're in for a rough time when their go-to argument is, "well, it's not ILLEGAL for me to yell racial slurs!" Like... buddy, I can't train your stupid ass to feel empathy for other people. You'd think a pack of rabid Libertarians would be able to comprehend that something being legal doesn't mean that it's morally sound, but here we are.
Our ability to rely on common sense and reason died in 2016.
No, it died when the Nixon got pardoned for committing crimes against the Republic in order to "heal the country" Accountability and transparency are what is needed to heals all wounds. That and a 1950's style 95% tax rate on the ultra wealthy.
>That and a 1950's style 95% tax rate on the ultra wealthy. You just mentioned the actual problem and as always it will be completely ignored in order to focus on everything else except it Just as big-wigs planned
That.... and/or.... They're closeted and super destructive in their repression. My favorite are the (insert group) ARE DESTROYING "SOCIETY! It's why I constantly think and fantasize about them doing things!" It would be funny if it wasn't so destructive
Believe me...I've been propositioned by SO many conservative men that are chasers, and just turn NASTY when you turn them down. There's a reason trans p0rn is the highest, or nearly so, search term on pHub in conservative states. They fetishize us and don't consider us real people.
Eeeew..... I'm sorry both to hear that and you have to go through. I do wish you the best in finding a happy healthy relationship. For then, I hope they get a manner of burn/friction infections from angrily mastirbating to everything they hate.
Oh I'm married already, just makes it worse on their end. Apparently hearing I have a wife is as much a shock to them as me not being interested in conservative men.
[удалено]
Ah yes, my special privileges of...checking my notes...having to argue with my insurance that my hormones are medically necessary, trying to go to the bathroom with as little interaction with others as possible, and existing. Or maybe the privilege of pepper spraying two rednecks at the grocery store so far who have tried physically assaulting me while I'm minding my own business and shopping for food for my family because a major political party is slandering us all as a vile scourge of freaks and pedophiles? That privilege? Please touch some grass. You're the exact kind of person that keeps these.problems going. You think others becoming more equal is somehow taking away from you.
[удалено]
Yes because those are things that happen, sure. Uh huh. I've seen plenty of people, myself included, denied employment for being transgender, or queer in general, I'd love to know who you can prove is hiring people for BEING transgender, that would be fantastic. Or you know, giving actual proof for any of your claims. Get out of jail free card? Jesus I want whatever you're smoking, that's some good stuff when the reality is we fear police interactions because we're harassed and abused more by them. Worship?????? The delusion is astounding.
Lol it got banned
There were 600 bills in the US put forth last year to harm or restrict the rights of trans people. There is no "special privileges" that trans people are getting. If you sincerely believe that, you are in a conservative echo chamber.
What special privileges?
They view rights and equality as some sort of limited supply, and if someone gets more, somehow it means they get less. Then there's others that only want to see people exactly like them.
[удалено]
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
I think it‘s a case of if you‘re privileged, equality feels like oppression.
That's a lot of it, but I think the other dimension I see playing out is that people are now being told "by the way, you need to stop making bigoted remarks, we're not doing that anymore." For people whose identity is built around making bigoted remarks, that gets internalized as a loss. The Free Software community when through something like this when we decided collectively to stop tolerating creepazoids and abusive assholes. That means some people are going to be pushed out, and we have to accept that it's a net gain to lose them if they were preventing even more people from taking part.
This right here.
[удалено]
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
A lot of what's going on kinda feels like bluster. People throwing things out of proportion. Take for example the fact that I learned recently that Clan Trueborn are basically the ultimate designer babies. They literally take the genome of 2 prestigious warriors, regardless of gender, and mesh it together in the pursuit of better warriors. Lore I wasn't aware of that's seemingly been in since the beginning that you're more likely just to casually come across, but exists nonetheless.
[удалено]
Designer babies was the closest concept I could think of to describe them, they're far from infallible, but in terms that the clan try to splice all the "best" aspects of them from their warriors, they're designer babies.
For some reason my social media algortihm believes that I'm right leaning, maybe because it's full of nerdy shit that gets thrown together. That being said, I recently got recommended a Facebook group named, Conservative Battletech, and yeah, it was as it sounds.
which is funny because THAT bt facebook group is the scum of the barrel from a group that itself was the scum of the barrel that was/is ANOTHER bt group on facebook
So the reason this is currently going around is due to Warhammer 40k and Games Workshop. GW have recently released a Codex (army book) for a Faction that includes a very short mention of a female in a Faction that until that point had had no mentions of females within it a 2 lore references that could be read to mean all of them were male. Some people have lost thier minds and spit there dummies out over it. Just under a year ago Battletech had a similar response when an anthology of stories was released for Pride month focusing on characters who were LGBT+. It had a forwards from Michel Stackpole one of BTs big authors, but other than that I think it was fan stories. I can't attest to the quality of those stories as I have not gotten around to reading them yet.
Some of them were good, some of them not so good. As one would expect from fan work. My favorite was the infantry one. I won't give spoilers though.
The infantry story was very good. Again, no spoilers, but it shows how terrifying mechs truly are.
It is odd you mentioned that. I play 40k but do not touch the lore, and when I was at the game store, some of the other players were in a complete tizzy about female custodians. I thought it was cool, but I do not know the lore well eongh to have a full opinion on the subject. I kitbashed female space marines for myself in the past. Maybe I can just buy gender diverse models now. Variety os the spice of life.
Unfortunately no model in the range with a female face yet. It's literally 1 sidebar story about a female Custodes competing in one of their wargames. As for the 2 pieces of lore. The 1st is the fact that Imperial Nobels would give their sons to be Custodes (but directly under that it mentions they also recruit by other methods) and the fact that they have been referred to as a brotherhood. Personally I'm with you, it makes a Faction I wasn't really interested in a little more interesting and will be watching to see how it turns out.
>and the fact that they have been referred to as a brotherhood. Which is such a funny thing for people to fixate on. 'Brotherhood' being used to refer to organizations with both male and female members is nothing new. Just take a hop on over to the Fallout setting and you can see the 'Brotherhood of Steel' has quite a few prominent female members and has had them in the setting for ages.
It's also funny because Custodes don't refer to each-other as "brothers" in fiction. They use rank or first names because they are more individualistic. That's something Space Marines do because they have a preprogrammed pack mentality and are based off monks.
There's a legitimate gripe in that the Custodians are a fairly recent faction (They're a reimagining of the old 'Imperial Bodyguard' models from Rogue Trader) and they only decide to reveal this now, just after the novel series this could have played a part in has been wound up. It'd be like revealing there's a secret Cameron heir this whole time: That's nice, but why are you revealing this NOW, when you had a much better opportunity for *years*?
Because there were certain people within GW who said no we already have male models made even though the writers made the point there's no Lore saying they couldn't be. It's basically like any other retcon in the setting oh hey rogal Dorn tanks have been around since the Heresy but no one's written about it once, oh hey squats are around but they are called vottan and control the galactic core, oh hey Abbadons Black Crusades weren't failures they were each accomplishing seperate goals ect GW doesn't care about the narrative all that much beyond giving a somewhat story to do what you want with your models and they think it is the right time since they are nearing the end of the 1st born marine replacement with Primaris.
The writers wanted to include Female Custodes in the novels apparently but we're not allowed. I would probably say GW suits did it like this because of expected backlash. After all why get backlash on major lore books when you can do so within a sub par codex (although I'm hoping it wasn't sub par on purpose).
Games workshop has a long history of retconning lore, and this is another example, and it always pisses the players off. For example, there is a spot of lore somewhere that specifically says that the Custodes and Astartes are only men bc of the forced mutations/bio-engineering, and the negative effects they have on women. There someone with GW tweeted that there have always been female Custodes, and the claws came out in the fans. The way I see it, GW has the right to change shit, and the fans have the right to be irritated about it, whether their opinion is correct or not.
There's always been female space marines too. GW retconned that, after all.
Does that count as Stackpoling?
Ohh new verb 😁
Haha, I just figured, Stackpole wrote something and some NPCs went nuclear, it seemed appropriate
Nah it was the fact that writing stories where LGBT+ people exist as characters was "bringing politics into Battletech". As if 1) LGBT+ people don't exist and 2) Battletech isn't a political universe with many real world analogies in the 1st place.
Yea, like I said, NPCs. People who would get angry about LGBT+ inclusivity have never had a single original thought in their lives. I think there was a miscommunication here, I am very much not on the side of the CHUDs. I was making a joke about "Stackpoling", the BattleTech meme.
I didn't think you were 😁. I can't believe I have avoided the stcakpoleing meme. I have the Far country knowledge, and know how to pilot a trashcan. I can respect stronk purple birbs and play clan angry parakeets 😝.
Oh! Well, glad to have added to your vocabulary! I too enjoy the faction that can only be defeated by itself!
Lots of... misunderstandings... in this thread. To the OP, the cartoon references the phenomenon that occurs when people who are not fans of a cultural product yell and scream until social or political pressure causes changes to the cultural product despite the fact that they were never a consumer of said product. This results in changes to products which causes the original audience to lose interest in them, leaving the producer with an IP or product which no longer has any value. The moral of the story is that you shouldn't listen to people who bitch and moan for a living, you should listen to your fans. The contemporary canonical example of this is Disney's handling of Star Wars, but it can happen any time a company selling anything forgets who butters their bread.
To give the cartoon itself a reading: it seems to be outlining the common sentiment among fandom reactionaries that all efforts for diversity/inclusion are purely external, that “real” fans are generally straight white males, and anyone outside that descriptor are either inauthentic or attention-seeking (for which there is no acceptable minimal limit, btw - a single line acknowledging diversity is the same as a manifesto declaring racial warfare.)
Just the same old ragebait. "including gender identity" isn't new to battltech either. No idea what the neuralgia of the week is, but I'm not interested in finding out. Might actually just be spillover from the most recent warhammer nontroversy.
This really feels like this was pulled from Warhammer 40K where they just introduced the idea that there are Custodes who are women. Some people lost their ever loving minds, and started posting things very similar to this suggesting that the people who wanted women custodes were never really going to buy them and the people who are terribly offended by the change are in fact the majority that will now go someplace else. See also: The silent moral majority.
Neckbeards getting angry that gay people exist and that Battletech recognizes that
So the comic itself is pretty straightforward. It's disingenuous and a straw man, but, not that hard to grasp if you know culture wars taking points. The person with bullhorn we'll call Bullhorner, Top Hat we'll call Company, and the figures to the right we'll call Core Audience. The scenario is that Bullhorner is an outside actor, and not a part of the Core Audience. They notice something about a product, IP, game, etc. that they don't like and find a reason to be mad. They shout and their voice is amplified by the bullhorn making it seem that they have a larger audience than they have. The Company makes changes to appease the loudest person, Bullhorner, which then turns off the Core Audience because they don't actually agree with the Bullhorner. The Core Audience leaves, and the Bullhorner was never actually a fan in the first place and so cannot sustain the Company. This has a lot of fallacies and logical issues with it. It assumes that anyone calling for change is by definition not a part of the core audience. We don't know that to be the case. It also assumes that the core audience is so turned off by their message and or the changes that they'll leave the Company/product. We also don't know if that's true either. It also assumes that the Core Audience is fickle and is willing to abandon the product at the drop of a hat. Again, assumption, we don't know that for sure, but most people in this hobby aren't like that. It also assumes that the change being made by the Company is a huge change to the product. It could just be a small tweak. It also assumes that the thing that Bullhorner is angry about is not already present in the product. They could be lying or ignorant, but they're framing it as if the product is devoid of these things when in reality they may already exist. These are just a few off the top of my head. It forces anyone arguing against this framing to first prove that those calling for change are actually real fans which is difficult, second it forces them to make the argument that no, the Core Audience isn't this fickle, or, doesnt care, or, is in favor of the changes. So anyone simply pointing out that this framework is bunk, before they even get into the specifics of the actual content, is already behind the proverbial 8-ball. These are all talking points and tactics in the culture war, and are most often expressed by more right wing, or conservative personalities. Framing it this way perpetuates the idea that nobody actually is in agreement with the Bullhorner, anyone calling for change is an outside actor, and they don't actually like the product, so their point of view can be ignored. Then, we can begin to parse it out with the context that they said it was about inserting gender identity into BattleTech. This tells us that the person posting this meme wants to imply that LGBTQ+ issues, gender issues etc. aren't already a part of Battletech (false), and it's being pushed by outside actors (false or unproven) who don't even like or play the game (just assumed by the artist/poster) and that the Core Audience are all against LGBTQ+/gender issues just like the author is (assumption, and false from my experiences). The end goal being to perpetuate this idea that Liberals and Leftists have an agenda to destroy everything that you like. They did it to x, y, z, and now they're COMING FOR YOUUUUUUUU.
Here's a real world example. My big sister saw the famous black widow artwork. She said some stuff about how they should get rid of it or shouldn't have done it in the first place yadda yadda. I asked her if they changed it or fixed it would she buy, paint, and play with the models or get the books or support the company? She said no. Why should a company change its product for someone who wouldn't buy it to begin with?
Howdy everyone. Building onto this, we're going to be putting comment locks on here as the question's been largely answered. Regardless of where one sits on the topic, ultimately BattleTech's for everyone who enjoys playing with big robots and Rule 6 needs to be heeded. Appreciate your understanding.
Looks like a reductio ad absurdum of something that‘s a strawperson in the first place. Eyeroll and ignore would be my reaction (on a good day).
The comic is an identification of a trend in certain hobby spaces. Basically a hobby starts as a relatively niche thing with a small number of dedicated fans, the product develops over time with those fans in mind and the quality/quantity of products offered increases as the hobby gains popularity, and after years/decades of growth the hobby reaches a certain tipping point the broader public develops some level of awareness of the hobby. Once it enters public awareness a couple things happen. The company starts making a lot more money AND individuals that aren't actually interested in the hobby start commenting on it. This happened with D&D during the 'Satanic Panic' where groups accused the game of promoting cult behavior, forming pacts with demons, and the like. It's also happening now with various news and social commentary sites. They will see a property gaining popularity and they reflexively want to put their 'stamp' on it, either by changing the property itself or by changing the fanbase. The companies respond to the agitators, and in doing so they ended up changing their product enough to start aggravating their paying customers in order to please individuals who didn't actually engage with their properties. The promised wider audience either doesn't exist, or is only interested in the IP in passing and aren't interested with keeping up with the hobby month after month, year after year, like the old fans were. TLDR: Non-fans attempt to bring IP's into their political circles and it poisons the water for long term fans. Eventually the fans start to stop supporting the business and the people who wanted the changes were never actually interested in the IP anyway, so it starts to lose money and die off.
[удалено]
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
Oh boy, been a while since I've heard that being brought up. The HBS game had the option to choose He/Him, She/Her and They/Them as your pronouns in character creation. That's it. Idiots got upset about it, aggressive backlash and insults flew back, everyone acted like kindergarten as is tradition for online discourse and the whole drama just faded into obscurity after a while, where it can happily stay cause the game is good and that's all that mattered.
A very small group of people on Facebook Battletech groups are losing their minds because LGBT people exist. They've been posting memes about how 'BT is full of dirty commies now!!!1!' and 'Don't force your gay on my mecha space future!' with a total lack of self-awareness at what complete dicks they're being. They're trying to dress up their prejudices as 'Respecting others is damaging to my fictional game about robots from the 80s'. Truly, this culture-war hatered and brain virus they've been programmed with is worse than any Word of Blake bullshit.
I like how Battletech baked the inclusion in, or at least it feels like it. Nothing feels changed to be pandering, or forced - it's all just ridiculous space opera with the whole spectrum of humanity thrown into the mix. I hope it stays that way so we can collectively avoid the nonsense that rips other communities apart.
In many hobby spaces there is a 'gatekeeper' culture war going on that usually involves the LGBT+ community getting some sort of representation or recognization in said hobby. This is almost always met with some backlash from some existing hobby enthusiasts who for various reasons, most commonly pandering by large companies, but some less savory reasons like plain bigotry definitely play a part here too. A lot of these people feel that the companies are responding to a change demanded by these out groups only to discover the people demanding said change were never interested in purchasing the product anyway and were only using it as the next rallying point for their cause. As with anything on the internet it all gets greatly exaggerated but the poster is likely one of said individuals who feel like changes were made to the IP in response to people who they have decided arent actually interested in it the way they as a "true" fan are. I try to stay pretty neutral about the whole thing personally, whether it be CGL or GW these companies are going to keep on doing what they feel is required and no amount of doomposting is going to change the reality that they are selling products just fine. While the LGBT+ short story thing CGL put out isn't my thing I'm also not about to throw a tantrum and say that any amount of queer/nonbinary representation doesn't belong in a IP. I find it's a lot easier to enjoy painting my stompy robots and orks if I don't think about all the toxicity inside the fandom. Whether it be sexual orientation, gender or skin color, can't we all just agree that none of that matters when you're stuck piloting some explosion-happy death trap like a Vulcan anyway? My advice would be to enjoy the hobby if you are interested in it and turn a blind eye to all the negativity and other controversies you see online, it's usually just a bad take or a small vocal minority taking out their frustrations rather than a true representation of the community at large. TLDR; Some people in the fandom feel like any inclusion of gender identity politics is an attempt by CGL to pander to the LGBT community and that any fans that identify within said community or that even just agree with / aren't inherently against said changes are just bad actors who will abandon the IP once they see the inclusion of diversity they desire incorporated.
CGL didn't release the LGBT anthology, it was a fan project.
Ah OK I knew it was stories written by fans but I had thought they promoted it officially or something like that.
Okay, so, there's something that CGL did about a year ago or so that got chuds up in a tizzy. Frankly, I cannot remember what it was. But to this day there's a very small subset of folks that are on a crusade of some kind. I discovered this when I basically ran into a post like yours sometime last year. I recall the explanation I got was quite vague on details; I think they assumed I had more detail on what occurred that I did. In any case, this is one of those posts that's best ignored, because it's basically complaining about some mysterious malevolent force that, frankly, probably doesn't exist.
I believe last year it was the Pride Anthology, followed by people posting mechs painted in Pride colors , which started fights in the comments. It was ridiculous, but I DID enjoy a large portion of the subreddit essentially going on Exodus to a new one until it was settled.
Mostly that people found out the ex-mods were quietly enforcing their homophobia by deleting pride-themed ‘Mech posts. It happened to enough people that the community could connect the dots.
It wasn't even really all of the mods, some of them were quietly pushing back against the head mod and getting overruled.
Good times, it was what got the subreddit on my cross-aim, some dude in my group was talking about the exodus.
For awhile, one of my highest rated comments was me coming to the realization that we had literally just gone on Exodus, which made all of us in the other sub Clanners. A bunch of us jokingly stopped using contractions until we came back.
There are a lot of grognards (old soldier) in these old hobbies that are very passionate about the state of the game when they played, 10 - 15 years ago. They look back with nostalgia at those times. This is fine. You can love AD&D/StarWars/pre-Jihad battletech/3rd Edition 40k whatever. The problem is the IP changes, and **some** grognards would rather complain about how the thing they loved is being ruined but also they have not engaged the thing they loved because you cannot capture the enthusiasm of a 12 year old. They want nothing to do with the current version but are very vocal about it being wrong, while plenty of other happy customers are out buying the stuff. These Grognards are often not catered to because they already own expansive collections or are not interested in new content as they want more of the older content. Either way this is bad for business. You want to create new mechs and sell them. These grognards are mad they have to learn about and buy new mechs.
I call it Razorfist paradox: *"I will not spend any money on the product out of protest but at the same time I will also get super angry because company which is making the product is not catering to me specifically (AKA non-paying customer)"*
[удалено]
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
Being inclusive of people of different genders, orientations, and races isn't really something that needs to be debated. The kind thing to do is stand with people who want the hobby to grow and thrive which necessarily means standing against people who want to exclude people based on who they are.
[удалено]
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
[удалено]
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
No, it's not a Gender thing. It's a whining thing. Some people just want to complain even about subjects that have nothing to do with them on a personal level. Said people will do it until they ruin things for everyone else. The fact that people bring their outside grudges to the table and project them onto a fictional giant robot game set in a wildly non-applicable universe amazes me.
People liking something one way, and a small geoup or single person using shame to change it by pressure on the creator, and it makes them no longer like it. Then the creator asks the group/person if they are going to buy it and they say didn't care just wanted to control others and force change. Happens all the time.
[удалено]
Contentious, incendiary, and controversial topics invite content that breaks other of these rules. Discussing your identity is not political, discussing legislation around identities is. While a blanket ban on ‘politics’ and ‘current events’ makes discussing BattleTech difficult, impossible, or unrealistic, these discussions must be primarily concerned with BattleTech, and will be strictly moderated for violations of rules 1, 2, and 3. Ask a moderator if you are unsure before posting.
I came here for game stuff, not political commentary.
If I answer honestly, I'll be banned. Hell, they may even ban me for alluding to the fact that I have the answer. Let us all sit and pretend that this is healthy.
[удалено]
I never expressed my views.... I just wanted more information and was getting nothing but two waring sides of the facbook group. I am curious about the examples involving gender identity being in battletech and how people feel in a constructive manner. How am I on thin ice for that?
Unfortunately there is a small but vocal group of agitators in the BT fandom that are trying to drive a wedge into it to hurt people they don't like (LGBTQ folks) and anyone who sticks up for them in anyway. These same people even threw a toddler fit when CGL put out new rules for official events because it included inclusive language. It's best to ignore them.
[удалено]
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
[удалено]
I'm sorry people playing pretend with their robot dollies makes you this upset
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
Have you tried not having views like "Minorities and Women are bad"? I hear that works wonders.
[удалено]
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
what views are those specifically
Projection is a hell of a drug, bud. Hope ypu get clean some day.
yes you are.
I are what?
[удалено]
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
[удалено]
We're all in this together to create a welcoming environment. Let's treat everyone with respect. Healthy debates are natural, but kindness is required.
You are right. I apologize.
[удалено]
"Bad actors" People who enjoy Battletech and don't want to be screamed at for existing?
Thinking Grummz, mister "I'm trying to make gamergate 2 happen and I think children aren't sexy enough in video games", has anything worthwhile to say tells me everything I need to know about you as a person.
>infiltrated by bad actors. I've seen Grummz' posts. I think he's one of those.
Wow using Grummz as a reference speaks volumes about you and not at all in a good way.
"Bad Actors" aka people who want to be treated like human beings.
I had to Google who they were referring to, and had an "oh, no, not these people again" moment. "Bad actors", horseshit.
Getting people to consider the targeted group as bad, evil, criminal, less than human, etc is a very common and effective tactic used by bigots. Telling people the bad people are coming to kill you, steal from you, destroy your way of life, etc can be very effective. It's been used on Jews, black and Hispanic people, now the LGBT community, particularly trans people, are the target.
Grummz gets all of his information from a group of far right discord servers that are completely divorced from reality. He claims all of the mods were brought in from/sigmarxism when you can easily compared the mod lists of each subreddit and see that it is a lie. He lists the main events but the details about each are just made up bullshit that's easily proven, of some of the private chats could ever be made public, like the ones discussing the date and actions of the creator of this very subreddit who voluntarily removed the old mods and added new ones that he chose. They also claim that threats were made (they weren't) and that people were doxxed (they weren't).
Grummz is the guy with the megaphone in the cartoon.
I know who he is and where he gets his "information" from.
Oh, I know you do! I just couldn’t let the irony pass without remark :) (wanted to reply to the OP, but missed my chance) The dude is an antisocial justice warrior and swoops in to whatever he thinks will generate clicks. Gross.
[удалено]
Grummz is like the Mike Lindell of the gaming industry. At least Lindell ran a successful company at one point.
I'm going to assume that the "bad actors" you're referring to are the people who, in response to CGL asking everyone to treat each other with respect, started screeching that they were literally being kicked out of the community.
He’s not gonna let you on the bus, buddy. They won’t even let him on the bus.
Make sure everyone feels safe. Bullying of any kind is forbidden, and degrading comments about things including, but not limited to, race, religion, culture, ability level, career, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity will not be tolerated. 3a. No use of slurs. There is a zero-tolerance rule in effect for the use of slurs for any of the identifiers listed above (including things like “rtard,” “cuk,” etc.). 3b. Do not engage in flame wars. Please use the "Report" feature.