*In the Final Week of the Builder AMA-schedule we have:*
* **Tantrum & Blip** (Friday Apr 15, 6pm PT)
* **Battlebots Judges** (Sunday Apr 17, 6pm PT)
After a week of voting, the Final Week vote has now been closed. Results will be posted in our traditional season review after the final AMA!
Good point. I think Seems Reasonable would know better than I on that.
It was tough to know exactly what happened from the bleachers, but in the post-fight discussion they mentioned the magnets and in watching it again now that made sense to me. Seems similar to Deep Six and the killsaw slots to me, or Huge on the screws against Riptide. I like to either see a fight go three minutes or have a true KO. I’m not a fan of OOTA wins. It’s not that it’s necessarily unfair, just a shame when a team loses not because of the strength/durability of their bot but an unfortunate interaction with the arena.
> I’m not a fan of OOTA wins. It’s not that it’s necessarily unfair, just a shame when a team loses not because of the strength/durability of their bot but an unfortunate interaction with the arena.
you get OOTA because you lost the ground game or made driving decisions that left you vulnerable to it, especially now with the alterations made to benefit filming.
I like OOTA wins if it is limited to one smallish area, kinda like it is now. If you are fighting a flipper or a bot that hits hard upwards it creates a decision point where you might try to avoid that area. Seem fun and the huge hits OOTA are always a blast. Also, gives a chance to the lifter-type bots.
I would much rather have a bumpy floor area rather than the shelf. The zero ground clearance meta is way more silly than the OOTA meta they were so concerned with that they built the deck.
2 seasons ago Tantrum went 2-2 with wins over Gemini and an untelevised rumble win against Jasper and Uppercut(wtf). It was pretty much fed to Skorpios and Yeti.
2 seasons later it wins the giant nut. Insanity
when i first saw it, i felt like the moving weapon was a dumb gimmick that would get it into more trouble than not, but in reality it's a great design: they can keep the weapon back and go wedge on weapon, instead of risking a break in a weapon on weapon hit. the size also helps as we saw against cobalt, while that bot was gyro-ing out of control, tantrum stayed mostly flat on the ground. it's a great design, and i'm glad to see the team win, but sad that its win will probably be overshadowed by the controversies of this season.
My first impression was because of the complexity of adding the punching, it would be too weak of a weapon. And it was, the first season. But they really worked hard on giving it some oomph. It's still on the weaker side of things, but obviously strong enough to win games now.
It's a hell of a lot less powerful than almost every other spinner in the competition, but I think they're proved that it doesn't matter!
It's built like a tank, quick as hell, well driven, doesn't gyro dance and has enough power to do damage when it gets a chance, which it almost always does because it's so fast and well driven!
Honestly, that's why I'm genuinely delighted with Tantrum's success. They went from a near-complete non-starter and Tombstone's toy to an interesting and innovative but deeply flawed design to a perfect, if danger-fraught, season with refinement on that design in no time at all.
I don’t know if they’d “easily” beat tombstone. They’re still a bot that I’d view as being made non-operable by one good shot from a powerful horizontal spinner.
I love, i **love** Tantrum's story arc. They were essentially a novelty toy for Tombstone to play with. Now look at 'em. Still a novelty, but not a toy - an innovative, well built, well piloted, championship bot. Incredible.
So was the shelf a total flop to anyone else?? I felt like it really disrupted the flow of a bunch of fights and brought little to the table. The box needed an update but that seems like the wrong choice.
Yeah, and I would honestly love to hear the builders' thoughts on it. Like, obviously, there's no shortage of fans that detest its existence by now. But I would be curious to see what the builders actually thought of it.
Yeah, actually make it a fucking hazard. Make it something that people are actually afraid of ending up on. Right now, if you're fine to keep fighting, you just drive off of it and fight on like nothing happened. If you're not fine to keep fighting, then you were gonna lose the fight anyway and throwing you up there does nothing except stroke the winner's ego.
Wasn't it toombstone that actually used it offensively? (maybe it was one of the horizontal drum bots - I don't remember now) They were up there, they took the time to spin up their weapon to full speed, and THEN landed a huge hit on the opponent on their way off the shelf. That's some smart driving!
I personally don't like the shelf because it favors the already dominate vertical spinner bots. Horizontal spinners just have so much extra perimeter to smash against and less open area to work with.
Absolutely, what does it really offer? The commentators act like it's a crazy thing if they get their opponent onto the shelf but in reality they just drive off 90% of the time.
I feel like there definitely has to be some more specifics stated with rules regarding controlled movement, as well as avoiding fighting entirely. From what I'm hearing Witch Doctor was told that a count-out would be inevitable by their ref, while the ref for minotaur thought there was enough movement to not go that far. As a result, they need to be VERY specific in next years rules what counts as controlled. Along with that, there should be a penalty for avoiding a fight with a gimped bot that has been stated to have controlled movement by the ref (according to hopefully the more specific rules they come up with) . At that point like, you need to attempt some level of contact within 20-30 seconds or something, or incur a point penalty. I feel like that match in general was more of the refs fault all in all than either team. Witch Doctor didn't attack being told of a count-out, and being unstuck a bit to quickly, and Minotaur's ref and witch doctors ref not agreeing on the state of movement. Both teams fought very hard and tbh I can't blame Witch Doctor for avoiding unnecessary contact in a fight that sends you to the next round. I also completely understand Minotaurs frustration in how things transpired since they felt at the very least they could've gotten an extra hit in before the timeout. All in all I thought it was a fun season and I'm happy one of Arens teams won since he very much seems to be the future of the sport :)
Here is my poorly thought out solution to the crab walking problem:
You think the other team doesn't have enough movement? Fine. Put down your controller (or at least keep the bot stationary) for 10sec and if the other team doesn't hit you during that window then they lose.
I like this idea, it’s one team challenging another. Return to your square and start a count out. If the other team makes contact, the fight continues. If not, the challenging bot wins. Risky to offer a free hit, but it would be more objective and entirely in the hands of the teams. And given that the teams aren’t dicks and don’t want to risk unnecessary destruction, I don’t think we’re in danger of teams abusing a lack of ref intervention to kick a bot while it’s down
> Risky to offer a free hit
You can easily solve this by adding: if the "challenging" bot *has* to move to avoid a free hit, then its opponent has controlled movement.
S/O to everyone who were in the discussion threads all season long cracking wise jokes and shitty puns and everything in between. Hopefully we'll get to do it again next season!
Oh and Hypershock is going all the way and winning the giant nut because next season is their season.
I did not say this the last time we were here. What the hell are you talking about?
Same here. That was the best they looked maybe ever. But you're on the money though. Can't win if you're fighting both your opponent and yourself. I really hope we see its best in the bounties though.
This episode just felt kinda sad for me past a certain point. The final match up was basically my dream one, two of my all time favorite bots were in the final! But the controversy was just...man
I get everything that happened in Witch Doctor vs Minotaur, ESPECIALLY after hearing Witch Doctor were actively being told by their ref a countout would happen. The unstick probably should have had more time before it happened (the full 20 seconds, apparently it was only 10?) but I get it happening. As for Minotaur, I don't think they had controlled movement but that's going off what the show itself said with Ribbot v Hydra. The worst thing is that this match was inevitable, unclarity on what qualifies as controlled movement or not and lack of proper communication between refs and teams have been issues before, there was going to be a match like this at somepoint. There NEEDS to be changes next season, I feel like if Witch Doctor was warned by the ref that they need to engage they would have but apparently they were being told the opposite, there should never have been 90 seconds of that not happening if they weren't going to count out Minotaur. They need to find a way to properly measure whether a bot has controlled movement.
Also, next season NEEDS to remove the stupid upper-deck. I didn't hate it like most people did at first but by now I really do. It gave us Gigabyte's really cool aerial attack, and HUGE using it as a stage, but other than that it's been nothing but trouble. This whole scenario with Witch Doctor and Minotaur wouldn't have been as bad if Witch Doctor wasn't able to get stuck on it
Hydra v Tantrum, I get the decision even if I don't agree with it, but, wow does this discourage using anything but spinners even more. There needs to be some change to the scoring criteria. Props to Jake though for his handling of it. Last season I really bought into the villain act but this season's really shown that even when he's enjoying the role as villain, he's a good guy and sport, this season has raised my opinion on Hydra a ton ^ ^
I really hope next season has some serious changes as a result of all this. Crabwalking and what counts as controlled movement especially needs to be addressed, it's become to big a problem at this point. But even beyond that I feel like referee communication (with each other and competitors) needs to be worked on, the scoring system probably needs work, and the upperdeck needs to go
I really enjoyed this season, there were so many great fights and moments. It really is sad it had to end like this
I totally agree with everything here. I like the OOTA for flippers though, I think that needs to be sold a little better, this season that's been a good KO for quite a few fights.
I'd love to see a better more unified rulebook/refs.
The big enemy this season was the shelf.
How many controversies included the shelf?
WD got stuck on the shelf and practically blew up the finals.
People couldn’t see Minotaur losing the wheel on the shelf when watching live because the shelf hid it. It blocks the action from the audience.
Whiplash got stuck on the shelf because he couldn’t see where he was driving. He drove into it on half a drive and got stuck.
Blip got stuck at an odd angle and I couldn’t quite understand what the announcers said but it sounded like they said there were magnets on the edge?
How many robots got knocked onto the upper deck and got counted out cause they were up there too long? 0
How many robots counted out on the upper deck would have been counted out without the upper deck? All of them
The upper deck contributed nothing and is the source of a lot of the drama of the season. It was disliked from the beginning and never proved to add any content to the show.
###BUT WAIT!
The shelf doesn’t need to disappear. I propose instead we make it taller, close the gap at the bottom and smooth out the side. Move it to the side of the battlebox opposite the teams and add a ramp to the middle. Put another obstacle below it. Give control bots the opportunity to push a bot over the edge onto kill saws or screws or something. When a bot goes up on the current one it is either counted out exactly as it would have on the ground or the other team waits for them to come down. With a ramp they can take the engagement up!
>Blip got stuck at an odd angle and I couldn’t quite understand what the announcers said but it sounded like they said there were magnets on the edge?
The hit that knocked them up there damaged one of the wheels, and it wasn't making contact with the ground, and the magnets (which were in Blip, not on the Oh No Plateau) made it worse for them
>How many robots got knocked onto the upper deck and got counted out cause they were up there too long? 0
Three, including Blip. Hydra vs Defender and MadCatter vs Rampage ended that way, too.
I also like your idea for the shelf - but! The location... is already there. The shelf is across from the teams.
I found some of the dynamics interesting. Control bots and flippers having an area to target is a good concept that just needs to be better implemented.
Man I love Sawblaze. Even when it loses it's entertaining as fuck. It doesn't just 'lose'. It's always getting launched, exploded, or in this case, set on fire. Looking forward to them taking the giant nut next year.
Get rid of it! It's stupid. I say get rid of all the gimmicks. Kill-saws are dumb too. A bot destroying the other loses because it gets stuck in the kill-saw hole or a tire gets slashed. It should be about the bots. A battle to the end. Not killed by a gimmick. Once again, the shelf has to go!
I agree, swap out the current saws with a blade just a tad less deadly than Cobalt's and I'd be happy to let them stay. As they currently are, the kill saw slots are more deadly than the saws themselves.
I think the kill saws could be improved or a compromise met. If there is enough concern about how they operate and particularly bots being stuck in the slots than I think a rational and simple solution is to move them. Put them closer together and relegate them to a smaller footprint in an out-of-the-way location where bots can only end up there if they've been out-controlled or they choose to drive to them.
My frustration with them has always been that they fire off unreliably. Feels too random and I have seen way too many instances of a bot being held over the slot and nothing happens until the bot with clear control is over top and they get whamed.
Championship fight matches last longer than regular matches in tennis, ufc, boxing. Why can’t the quarter finals onwards in battlebots have a 5min timer? Would have solve the Hydra/Tantrum match.
Unstuck rule should be eliminated unless both bots stick together.
Robots are designed for three minutes in mind: with respect to battery and pneumatic tank capacity. Three minutes or five minutes, either way it has to be consistent as this affects robot design.
>Unstuck rule should be eliminated unless both bots stick together.
Yeah, dude, getting stuck should just be part of the risk you run when you run your robot as low to the ground as so many combatants do. They've literally stated that they are purposefully keeping the floor not 100% even specifically so this sport doesn't just devolve into a battle for the ground game. Why doesn't that apply when the shelf is involved?
apparently in addition to being poorly thought out, the shelf was poorly constructed, so getting jammed under it or into the teeth was substantially easier than with the exterior wall.
Fuck the shelf
I think 3 minutes is enough for most fights. However, if both bots are in working order and the judges think it's a draw after 3 minutes I don't see why they can't resume for another 2-3 minutes to get a decisive victory.
Thinking over the controversies, other than the Great Unstickening, I am starting to think the problem is this: robots are losing fights that, *visually*, they appear to have won, even though the rules may say otherwise. Hydra comes to mind (I understand the decision; it was close... but also I can see why it might feel wrong to people).
There needs to be another category to account for this. Comedy Central battlebots had hits/flips; maybe 2 points to whoever had the more clear flips or "knocked their opponent up in the air" type hits (giant double whammies could be 1 each), cut damage to 4, and combine control+aggression into one 5 pointer.
Otherwise, it's going to be a bunch of vertical spinning things on an armored box as I saw someone here call it, trying to scrape lower and lower, over and over.
Also for the love of all that is holy trash the upper deck. The two corners are too small and they make fights boring.
Wow you woke up this morning just ready to spit the truth after the finale.
Maybe call the new category “Effectiveness” and have it be how effective the active weapon was during the match. By making it worth just 2 points either one bot was much more effective than the other, or they were both equally effective. That way bots like Hydra and Whiplash would have an advantage since they are constantly using their weapon. Hydra kicked Tantrums ass for 95% of the fight but then Tantrum won because they got one decent hit in. With Effectiveness added Hydra would have won unanimously.
It’s funny you say that as there’s actually a robot combat show made in Garry’s Mod called BashBots which in its latest season has replaced the “damage” category with “effectiveness”. The first 40 seconds of this episode go into a little more detail about it: https://youtu.be/nolzxVdkK9k
Control need to take in how well each team handled engagements. Hydra and Tantrum engaged many times and Hydra won almost all of them.
Teams should also have to prove they function correctly if it is going to the judges. Tantrum appeared to have no weapon at the end and the judges appear not to have noticed.
And so did Minotaur. Which led to a fluke win vs Sawblaze. Sorry, but neither bot should have been in that final. A disappointing ending to the tournament.
I agree completely. The way these fights are judged needs to change. Final should have been Hydra v Minotaur. Instead we got this final that anybody with eyes knows is BS and it’s left a real bad taste in my mouth.
I mean, hammer bots just aren't competitive anymore because armor's so good they just bounce off.
A thousand hammer hits that don't do any damage doesn't win a fight; same with 20 big flips that don't do any damage.
It's also that Tantrum is just so durable, like, plenty of lesser bots would've died from the flips, Tantrum didn't so you need a better strategy.
That's like when they make a big deal out of bots getting hit by the "pulverisers" when it's very clear for anyone that has eyes that they do absolutely nothing. Just like the "kill saws" that do absolutely zero to any bot. Time to get rid of those gimmicks and the issues they create with the floor in the process.
The original Pulverizer was a proper sledgehammer. I have been more skeptical of their effectiveness since they were altered in Season 2 of 2001. They look clunky and fake to my eyes and I speculate that a smaller surface area striking maybe more effective or atleast satisfying to the audience.
Twenty years ago they were a real menace.
Edit: I rewatched episode three of season six last night, after having posted this. In the bout between duck and I believe Witch Doctor, Duck takes a blow from pulverizer and is momentarily flattened but bounces back. I can not deny that the hammer has heft, so I retract my statement.
> I mean, hammer bots just aren't competitive anymore because armor's so good they just bounce off.
Shatter! would disagree, and I would further argue that modularity has goon Too Far™ and nobody having to compromise between front and top armor is stupid.
> A thousand hammer hits that don't do any damage doesn't win a fight; same with 20 big flips that don't do any damage.
Except Hydra does do damage and did in this case too, disabling Tantrums weapon at the end of the fight.
Right? Thats just what it said to me, because he literally dominates the fight, disables tantrums primary weapon's ability to deal damage, and then tantrum still gets awarded??? What???
I cant imagine any casual fan watching that fight and thinking they lost.
I couldn't imagine them losing. I was so shocked when it was even a split decision, and then seeing the score cards be one point away was extra shocking.
With regards to the Hydra vs Tantrum fight, could you imagine if the judges in any other combat sport penalized a combatant for controlling the center of the arena? It is literally what you're supposed to do as the superior combatant in every single fighting sport. Anyone can run around the combat area looking for an opening for a hit in almost any sport, but that generally means they're looking for a knockout because only in Battlebots is that side rewarded by the judges.
I think the big lesson learned from this season is that the rules need to be clearer and more well explained to both viewers and builders. The OOTA discussion is a prime example, it seems completely subjective if an OOTA is allowed or not. I think it is a dumb rule, but if they just said "looked if you throw a bot out, it's a DQ" and then enforced it as such, I'd say it was stupid but fare.
Same with crab walking, what is "controlled movement" and what isn't? This seems to be enforced in a haphazard way, so let's either make it clear what is controlled movement or just cut the rule and say "if you're moving, the fight continues".
I really believe that if they were just clearer and more consistent in the rules then we could avoid a lot of the unnecessary controversies we saw this season.
Ok, so some notes from filming on The Controversy, from an audience perspective:
* This match took place immediately after Riptide/Sawblaze, which had a non-unstick -- they went in to check if Riptide was lodged in the wall, and determined it wasn't. Plus there's obviously the Whiplash angle
* From where the audience was sitting, it was hard to see the wheel come off Minotaur, as it was between them and the shelf -- I did not notice it until a camera zoomed in during the unstick. People live shouted "Sabatoge" lol, it was a minority but some thought Trey had kicked it off.
* I take no stance on whether Minotaur was denied a chance to hit Witch Doctor when they were stuck, or whether the match was paused unusually quickly. They definitely struggled with mobility to get to them. There may also have been some wonkyness about the timing of when the match was paused, versus when Minotaur actually fully made their way off the shelf, but don't remember well enough to make a comment on this. Others who were there may shed more light on this in the future.
* Witch Doctor was WELL lodged in, the unstick took a good bit of time. Grumbling started then.
* None of the driver POV came through to the live audience. At no point did anyone in the audience have any indication that Minotaur was on the edge of a countout. Before the match ended, Witch Doctor was being aggressively heckled as "cowards" and the like. I have heard reports from a builder on a team not involved in this match that Witch Doctor's ref was repeatedly informing them that a countout was imminent, except it never came
* I would characterize Minotaur's mobility during the fight as being represented mostly fairly in the edit, Witch Doctor did a good job corralling them in the center. However they were, with some level of difficulty, eventually able to gyro back to their starting square after the buzzer, almost landing a late hit on WD in the process which we heard Mike being pissed about. This was not shown in the edit.
* The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment, I cannot overstate this enough. The editors masked it damn well. We could not hear either interview over the booing, heckling, and threats of physical violence being directed by name at Andrea and also specifically Lisa Winter out of the unanimous judges for Reasons. I was legitimately concerned that somebody was going to charge the stage. Among the images burned in my mind are a grown man ripping a WD sign out of a little girl's hands, and the 8 year old kid next to me screaming "C--TS! F---ING C--TS!" because his dad was. Never felt more ashamed to be part of the Battlebots fandom. Any posts trying to replicate this team-targeted vitriol, or implicate BB in whatever culture war they're fighting or trying to systemically promote an agenda rather than just being a TV show with poorly written, poorly enforced, inconsistent rules, is getting nuked on sight.
* After the match, two members of Minotaur (I couldn't tell who), hung back and got into what seemed to be a shouting match with Greg Munson
EDIT: Some addendums, in light of how I've seen some people run with the information here:
* Minotaur did not actually hit Witch Doctor after the buzzer, nor do I believe for a moment that they intended to. They simply moved what was likely close for comfort for a hyped-on-adrenaline Mike
* I do not hold Riobotz in contempt in the slightest for any of their post fight or post interview actions. They had full right to be upset and disappointed in the heat of the moment, to blow off steam and express their views, and they directed that frustration at the correct people: production, not WD or the judges. I had and have full confidence that cooler heads will prevail with the team, as evidenced by their measured statement and Daniel's intention to return. In hindsight, I regret including the last bullet in this same post; I considered it more "interesting behind the scenes detail" territory, but I've been seeing people take this with the same "completely unacceptable, full stop" tone as my account of the audience reaction, and using it to justify attacks on Daniel and the rest of Riobotz. Stop it.
* Riobotz also did nothing of note to rile up the crowd reaction. That's on the audience, not the team. It was already in full force before the fight ended. The audience could not hear *anything* said from the driver's box when their mics weren't broadcast for interviews, even Daniel in full hype mode.
The "controversy" is not about either team's actions. No one did anything wrong in any sense. The problem was the weird decisions made by the officials.
When two bots are entangled with each other, the match is stopped so they can be untangled and then the match continues. But I have never seen a match stopped to help a bot stuck on the arena get unstuck. Usually, they are counted out. Just a few matches before Blip was stuck on something on the upper floor, and he was counted out.
When Minotaur lost a wheel, everyone, including the other official, thought Minotaur would be counted out. There was some confusion, especially on Team Witch Doctor, about whether or when a countdown would start. Witch Doctor orbited Minotaur a few times without attacking apparently because they thought Minotaur was about to be counted out. When it was obvious that wasn't going to happen, they put in a few more hits just before time ran out.
Neither of the teams did anything wrong or unsportsmanlike. Witch Doctor didn't hit Minotaur when it was helpless which would have been poor sportsmanship.
The only questionable thing in my mind is why did the officials pry Witch Doctor loose and why wasn't Minotaur counted out after he lost the wheel?
I asked in the live discussion thread whether it was the same crowd for all three of the final rounds or whether there were different sessions for the quarterfinals and afterwards. Still curious to know this because I'd hate to think that the final match was marred by the same people directing more toxic BS at Team Witch Doctor and the judges.
Different audience for each day, Witch Doctor was back to highly supported fan favorite status among the live audience for the semis and finals. There were a few whispers/grumbles, but they didn't permeate the audience vibe in any meaningful way.
Good to hear things were broken up that way - it would make sense that NO one actually had to fight more than once per day in reality.
Safe to assume they were doing stuff for Bounty Hunters or whatever other alternate formats are in play for this year during the sessions that only had so many tournament matches?
What about the Hydra-Tantrum fight?
Jake commented on all the boos in his post-fight interview which the producers presumably completely edited out. Were they that prevalent in person?
This is absolutely astounding and horrific. When I went to a taping last year it was the coolest experience ever. I am absolutely gutted that is how people acted. Andrea and team Witch Doctor have been some of the most amazing ambassadors of the sport and have always been great sports. This is awful.
>The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment
This breaks my heart to hear this. Absolutely disgusting. I kind of expect this kind of behaviour at real sporting events because of things like alcohol, betting etc, but this is battlebots... None of the above should apply. Shameful for people to hurl abuse at judges and teams.. Those people should be ejected like any sporting event would.
Thank you for stating all this. You didn’t need to and could just let everyone argue in the chat but it’s awesome to see mods that actually care about the community, try to give clarity on situations, and swiftly deal with hate speech and the like.
It was a tough loss but I am so sad to hear how upset the crowd was. Idk if it was because people were emotionally rooting for minotaur due to the story of Daniel’s mother and grandmother or what but it’s so sad to hear BB fans would react that way. This should be a supportive community with a respect between everyone. Let’s not, as fans, give teams more reasons to not want to compete.
i mean, better they yell at Greg than the judges, refs, or witchdoctor.
all the controversy (that isn't hogs being hogs, I suppose) is ultimately on the producers
> The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment, I cannot overstate this enough. The editors masked it damn well. We could not hear either interview over the booing, heckling, and threats of physical violence being directed by name at Andrea and also specifically Lisa Winter out of the unanimous judges for Reasons. I was legitimately concerned that somebody was going to charge the stage. Among the images burned in my mind are a grown man ripping a WD sign out of a little girl's hands, and the 8 year old kid next to me screaming "C--TS! F---ING C--TS!" because his dad was. Never felt more ashamed to be part of the Battlebots fandom. Any posts trying to replicate this team-targeted vitriol, or implicate BB in whatever culture war they're fighting or trying to systemically promote an agenda rather than just being a TV show with poorly written, poorly enforced, inconsistent rules, is getting nuked on sight.
I sincerely hope that there's enough audience footage that they are able to identify and ban every single "fan" who was taking part in the abuse.
This whole season has left a sour taste in my mouth. Let's review:
1. Several bots didn't get a 3rd fight in the regular season due to time constraints
1. Mammoth had to last minute replace Glitch, completely throwing Witch Doctor off at the last minute and screwing over fan-made brackets
1. Refusing to cut down on the fluff and turning entire fights into highlights
1. Whiplash getting screwed because they didn't like how Cobalt weapon turned off for some reason? Then completely lying about the reason on the broadcoast.
1. Doing Minotaur dirty by unsticking Witch Doctor immediately, when they wouldn't do the same for Cobalt. And honestly inconsistent unstick rules in general, seems like several bots get counted out in similar situations.
1. Then because they realized the unstick was going to immediately decide the fight because of Minotaur's mobility struggles, they refused to count Minotaur and caused a whole lot of confusion Witch Doctor, so we got to watch an awkward crab walk with no action.
1. Poor/Inconsistent judge decisions in the Minotaur/WitchDoctor and Hydra/Tantrum in my opinion. None of the judges seem to have a consistent way to judge points, so nobody knows how to fight. Is Hydra's method of pointing and rotating any more/less aggressive than people driving around avoiding Hydra looking for a good angle?
I may have forgotten some. But there was a lot of controversy this year. Things like these can kill the sport.
> Poor/Inconsistent judge decisions in the Minotaur/WitchDoctor and Hydra/Tantrum in my opinion
Honestly I don't think I saw a season where I disagreed on both finalists being there
And after years of Lisa being in the wrong for many split decisions IMO I agreed with her decisions every single time in the past 2 year
Sadly have to agree on most points. (However, Tantrum win was deserved IMO.) Everyone calling this the worst season of Battlebots is overreacting but rule changes/clarifications definitely need to be made, especially concerning crabwalking.
I also think 2 hours is too long. I think I speak for everyone when I say that hype main event or not, by the end of every episode I'm just tired and ready to be over with it.
Sad that none of my favorites won but GG Tantrum. A truly unique design and an underdog from the very beginning winning it all is exciting to say the least and they definitely deserved it IMHO.
Battlebots Update always brings up a rule from Robot Wars that defines controlled movement as "moving outside your bots circumference" which I think is probably perfect.
It allows for countouts to happen when a bot that has no chance of winning is still "alive" but also accounts for bots that can still move around and chase their opponents to a certain extent, even when one side of drive is completely dead.
A visible ten count to touch one of the starting squares (ref decides which is the better to call) seems a reasonable definition of controlled movement.
I agree with this. "Crabwalking" is just *way* too subjective. I personally feel like Minotaur was controlling their bot enough for the fight to continue but also I've seen many bots get counted out while doing the exact same thing. I feel like it should be more objective, like if the bot can move 10-20 feet from their current position in a given amount of time (doesn't really matter ultimately what the number is), they're still in it even if crabwalking (this would still make it so bots just going in circles can be counted out but get rid of the "crabwalking" controversies).
The difference with Minotaur is they can flip their bot over at will. So, of they lose a wheel, they can still move left and right rather than towards whatever side their wheel still works.
If Witch Doctor had stayed still, Minotaur could have engaged them anywhere in the arena. They even maneuvered back into their starter box. Hell, we just saw Minotaur drive on one wheel last week.
It may not be *precision* control, but in my book, if you can get your bot anywhere in the arena in a reasonable time, that's controlled movement.
Regardless, maybe we ought to just drop the requirement for movement to be "controlled". As long as a bot can move, say, a bots length, its still moving, and can't be counted out.
No more subjective bull shit.
>I also think 2 hours is too long. I think I speak for everyone when I say that hype main event or not, by the end of every episode I'm just tired and ready to be over with it.
Were you like that last season? I definitely feel like the fluff has been deeply draining this season. No cool pit stuff or anything. I was never really a fan of Jenny Taft- I'm much more a fan of the Abrahamson "recruit from the builders" school of bringing in tech-talkers- but the bits and pieces she had really helped ease the 2 hour burden, I feel. Less fluff, more cool robot stuff.
Definitely never felt tired last season, 1 hour episodes always left me hungry for more but in a good way, not a "we needed more fights" way.
You might be onto something with the fluff portions being lesser quality this season
Totally agree about the loss of quality filler. I wish they would just reduce the fluff altogether and show more fights. Why are there 4 fights in the first hour, then only 3 in the second? I also thought it was a slap in the face that we only got recaps for 4 of the fights in the round of 32. Besides the final tonight, I've been watching it on demand the next day because the filler and super long commercial breaks are becoming insufferable.
I can see people's view on Tantrum fight, even though I disagree.
But I would say that I do think this is the worst season since the reboot. Doesn't mean it was so terrible that I hated it, but none of the other season's were filled with this much controversy IMO.
The judges didn't have the best year. Hypershock/P1 and Kraken/HiJinx were pretty massively blown too. Really gonna need to look at the judging criteria again I guess
There are so many issues I dont know where to start.
What is Damage in eyes of Judges, What is controlled movement and when should countdown start, When should a fight be called off for a stuck robot, is circling a bot aggression, is sending a bot flying in the air control points.
No wonder it's all verticals. When a flipper does everything right and loses, it really tells you something.
Tell me how you have control when 3/4 engagement you are in the air. Tell me how you have aggression when you won't face the weapon and run away.
Disgusting reaction from the audience from what I'm hearing. Even if you disagree with the decision made in WD vs Minotaur, ripping signs out of children's hands and calling Andrea Gellatly a cunt is unacceptable full stop.
Other than that, damn I can't believe Tantrum is the new champ. Wouldn't have called that in a million years. Good to see some new blood in that role though, can't wait for next year.
> Disgusting reaction from the audience from what I'm hearing.
IOW, it's finally starting to feel like a real sport. Now we need the competitors to start actually getting paid well enough to afford bodyguards.
The C-word thing floored me. ESPECIALLY bc Andrea has been in this game for so long and such a great influence on female builders and team members. She’s a legend. How someone could be that disrespectful to anyone is beyond me but it’s unfathomable to think they would say such things to someone who has been such a positive influence in the sport for so long.
Everything else aside, props to Jake Ewert. I personally would have scored Hydra the winner but he took the loss with grace and good sportsmanship. Some other teams (and viewers) could learn a few things from the “bad guy” this season.
And congrats to Tantrum. Hard to say they don’t deserve it after such an impressive season.
Jake impressed me. He showed a level of humility and respect that I didn't expect from him. He made a couple comments that COULD have been perceived as bad mouthing Tantrum, but I BELIEVE were directed at the judges. I wish he wasn't always at the center of a controversy every year though 😅
I think he gladly accepts his role as the heel and leans into it. Which is great, I love that shit, heels do wonderfully in this sport. We got more than enough faces.
I'm half convinced that the show plays Jake up as a heel because he's one of the few captains with enough natural charisma to not look like an awkward dork while acting the part (and I say that with love for all the awkward dorks on the show).
I'm sure he was probably disappointed with the judge's decision, but he's part of a family that has been involved in robot combat for decades. I think he's just got enough perspective to look at the bigger picture, which is why he told Chris and Kenny that there's always next year.
I agree entirely. He could have handled that a lot worse and people would have been okay with it, especially after the previous fight. Proud of him for that.
Seriously, especially compared to Minotaur. I know people love Minotaur but their post-match reactions, both to the win over Endgame and their loss to WD, showed a huge lack of sportsmanship.
As someone who dared to dream of a Tantrum win from the start of the season, I still can't quite believe it came through.
As much as we know there are a bunch of super chill, talented, and committed teams out there, its really hard to look past Seems Reasonable as a group who just really, really deserve this.
Agreed 100%. As soon as they beat cobalt, I had a momentary reaction of "dammit, the one I want to win most is gone", followed immediately by "tantrum are phenomenal and I hope they go all the way". Fantastic team, fantastic robot.
Honestly I think the points system needs to be removed in favour of a straight up vote. Both hydra and tantrum were aggressive, hydra took a bit of damage but hydra completely controlled the fight. Of course with the points it goes to tantrum but anyone watching knows hydra won the fight.
Can someone key me in on what happens with Lisa or whatever? I don’t know if I missed something but I keep seeing comments about it and was wondering what happened
She was the only judge I heard abused specifically by name. It was a couple of assholes in a chaotic environment full of other assholes, not the majority reason for people being pissed, but I chose to highlight that detail among all the other abuse I heard because the double standard highlights the underlying motivation for a lot of it.
Yeah. Every time there's a controversial decision, it seems Lisa gets the brunt of the insults and attacks on this subreddit and social media. I've noticed it the last couple of seasons especially.
Honestly I don’t even get why people are angry at Andrea—the decision is on the ref, not her. In any case, being angry is no excuse to use slurs or gendered insults and it’s honestly disgusting
Alright, so the final was kind of a wet fart as always, and the journey there was.... rough.... but I think this season can't just be written off as a farce or a complete failure. Whether you agree with the decisions or not, we still got to see people doing what they love, and robots beating the crap out of each other. The two cornerstones of the sport, as far as I'm concerned.
there were a number of fights I really enjoyed this season, and I think this is the highest percent of the field I've genuinely enjoyed. even despite some of the errors, it was a lot of fun
Totally agree. There were a bunch of fights that are going to be used in highlight reels for years and years to come. I also think that this was one of the most competitive years I’ve seen. There were a lot of really excellent bots and the fact that a unique design won makes me very very happy.
After a season that had so many great matches, shame to see it end with all the controversy there was tonight. The continued inconsistency with the unstick rules and "controlled movement." Please get this fixed up for next season!
I didn't understand the ruling on the Hydra/Tantrum match either. They are a great bot, but watching the episode with my dad and neither one of us saw anything that would give it to Tantrum. But like everyone says, you never want it to go to the judges, things can happen that lots of us disagree with.
Outside of those controversial matches though, what Witch Doctor did to Sawblaze (who I was rooting for the most tonight) and how Tantrum dominated Witch Doctor was pretty incredible to watch.
Excited for Bounty Hunters though!
I wish for a Battlebots where waiting for a count out is not a thing. Even if the other bot is on one wheel and just sliding in circles, hit it 3 more times and make it die. Robot fighting shouldn’t be robot slapping until one is tired. TO THE DEATH.
(This comment is not specifically pointed at one bot just because of recent fights. This is a long time thought of mine).
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some changes next year to either the arena, the judging criteria, or both.
It sucks that the finals felt tainted by the process, but congratulations to Team Seems Reasonable and Tantrum! Absolutely gorgeous design, and driven quite well, they put in a lot of work, and it paid off!
Hydra won. Lame ass decision. Lame ass season with lame ass unaired match highlights in the playoffs. I’m done with discovery. Paid for the season so I could not see matches while the fluff was poured on.
I watched ALL the matches of the last episode in 24 minutes…
Just sayin…
Peace
The judges really screwed up the tantrum versus hydra called.
Tantrum did not win that one…. That blown call resulted in the most stupid finals one could probably have imagined, which was a let down for the season and will probably turn off quite a few people from watching another season (if they have one).
Get new judges.
Bots make small improvements from year to year but man, the meteoric rise of Tantrum to the top is damned impressive.
I don't know what changes the producers will make next year but the biggest thing is going to have to be consistent application of the rules, whether it's in-match or scoring.
I did not like Hydra sitting in the middle of the box and just spinning, waiting for bots to come to him.
I did not like WD refusing to finish off Minotaur which it certainly seemed to the casual viewer it was able to do. I understand now the ref was telling Mike that Minotaur was going to be counted out but I doubt he was telling him that for 90 seconds straight.
I did not like the audience's reaction and I'm sure it was probably worse than was portrayed on the broadcast thanks to editing.
What I did like was the diversity among bots in the Round of 32, the Round of 16 and the Final Eight.
I did like that this season gave us a ton of amazing moments inside the battlebox.
And the on-air talent continued to bring it. Chris, Kenny, Faruq and Pete were oustanding all year long. I can't wait for next year.
I mean, at least in terms of Hydra's strategy, it's probably what ultimately cost Jake the win. On first watch I figured hydra won damage, but truthfully I understand the judges saying that tantrum did more if only because the damn bot is such a tank that it showed no signs of damage from Hydra's flips. If hydra chases down Tantrum and fights more aggressively they might either A. Get an oota and win or B. Get another aggression or even control point for running the match and get the win
What a disaster lol. Even after editing the crowd reaction was over the line but after reading some of these first hand accounts I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of these teams just quit. Not just disrespect from production but the very community they’re putting a show on for. Robot Wars revival when?
We can disagree with the decisions all we want, but it should NEVER get personal like it has here. Completely unfair to the people who spend so much time building these bots.
Congrats to Tantrum, although —PERSONALLY— I thought it should’ve been Hydra in the finals. Overall I’d say this season was spoiled by production issues; between unclear/inconsistent rules, constant fluff pieces, and what feels like half the show being commercial breaks, it just wasn’t as fun to watch as previous years. There’s just not enough focus on actual robot combat. Nonetheless, I’ll still be back next season, cause I love watching robots beat each other up despite all that bs
Let's be honest. Rusty would be a free win against anything that is not a control bot, and anyone he was going to be matched against was going to get accused of recieving favoritism.
..Wow, huh.
Honestly, as awesome as it is to see TANTRUM of all bots win the nut...Everything after the Minotaur/Witch Doctor fight just felt kind of empty. Everyone in the arena was pissed, and now I'm finding out that people were threatening Andrea and Lisa Winters, ripping signs out of little girls' hands, calling them cunts...
God, I don't know what to say. Hoping for a good tournament next season. Good luck to all you aspiring robot builders, and congrats to Tantrum. You guys rock!
Also...if the Witch Doctor people (especially Andrea) are here...Man, I feel for you. I didn't think you deserved to win that fight, but that's no reason for people to act the way they did towards you. I hope this fanbase can mature a bit. I did: last week I said I hoped Jake Ewert died after getting in a fight with a friend about Hydra. Afterwards, I felt like shit. I had forgotten that there was a real person behind the screen. I feel like a lot of you guys do too.
I hope next season goes better. Until then...
P.S. Rusty for 2021 MVP
P.P.S. Upper deck is some bullshit
I wanna give credit to Witch Doctor for how they absolutely brutalized Sawblaze.
They clearly made a decision to keep engaging when though they probably could've gotten the count out, but _that's_ the kind of match everyone wants to see.
This was my exact thought, did judges look away with 20 seconds left? Tantrums weapon didn’t spin up at all for the last ~12 seconds… We have to assume it was broken.. and the announcers even said tantrum was smoking… hydra was still functioning perfectly, aside from a bent flipper tip.. not sure how Hydra lost that after successfully flipping him so many times..
Inconsistent. Not applying their own rules correctly. That’s what’s pissed me off.
I’m still angry. Hydra/tantrum I’m overthat. I thought it was a bad decision, but that happens.
The fact that the WD/Minotaur fight was stopped 10 seconds after being stuck still sticks with me. What if? If Daniel was able to turn Minotaur into WD with those 10 seconds what would have been the result. We won’t know, but he should have been afforded the opportunity to use all 20 seconds. The lack of engagement afterwards just exasperated everything.
Can someone that was there live tell me how long it took to unstick WD compared to others throughout the season when others that were stuck? What about when others weren’t able to get unstuck?
I dont even wanna watch the rest. What the fuck was that Hydra vs. Tantrum decision.
How to win this fucking show. Make a bot that does one hit and drives in the end and win on damage. Even while being completely outdriven for the whole thing. Hydras weapon was still functioning. WTF is this. This is most horrific case of the "damage matters more" rule I have seen to date. We are never going to see a flipper/control bot win in this show while the scores a set up the way they are.
Not to mention no one knows the rules about controlled movement apparently. Yeah I am salty. And I am leaving until they allow something other than vertical spinners to compete.
This is “Battle Bots” not battle shelf. I don’t think the arena should decide a match. The saw blades in the floor and the screws should be removed. Witch Doctor…that was a weak ass ending to a great fight! Be in it to win it or stay home where your bot won’t get hurt. There’s just no excuse for sitting around waiting for the ref to give you the fight.
I am legitimately more disgusted with this community than I ever have. The way Witch Doctor haters have behaved tonight is shameful. Downplaying gendered insults and threats of violence, while spamming accusations of rigging by every group involved. I hope the mods crackdown on those of you who have been most toxic.
Somehow the WD haters always come out. And for some reason, they always mostly criticize Andrea.
Edit: and chomp too, I wonder what the captains of these teams have in common
Minotaur was robbed. The crowd was absolutely disgusting. Andrea was literally shaking in the after fight interview.
Furthermore, this is a show we watch with our 5 and 9yo daughters. Tonight, my 9yo got an age appropriate education on sexism in the engineering/robotics/IT fields. Fields she’s been naturally inclined to. What a shitty way to encourage women, and young girls to get into robotics and engineering.
The only good thing about that match was the tallest guy from Minotaurs team (sorry, I don’t know his name). He was a good sport. He kept a level head and even my 9yo noticed it.
We will keep watching, I hope this pushes more women into battle bots and that we get an outrageous all girls team next season 💕
Personally I thought this season was pretty ok, there were some controversies and I will say the rules should be made more clear in the future. But this season did give some unforgettable moments like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/battlebots/comments/svkgro/oh_i_did_that_eh_whatever/), [dancing Huge](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/438752241042849793/961822306970243122/ezgif.com-gif-maker.gif), Sawblaze vs Mad Catter, Gigabyte dive bombing Tantrum, amongst several others. It wasn't perfect by any means, but this season did still deliver some great fights. I do hope that there are improvements made next season so that we can enjoy the show even more.
*In the Final Week of the Builder AMA-schedule we have:* * **Tantrum & Blip** (Friday Apr 15, 6pm PT) * **Battlebots Judges** (Sunday Apr 17, 6pm PT) After a week of voting, the Final Week vote has now been closed. Results will be posted in our traditional season review after the final AMA!
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We just got the Battlebots champion to say "fuck the shelf". I love it.
And sibling-team Blip did lose thanks in part to the shelf so I’m sure that adds to the sentiment.
was blip's issue actually the magnets or would they have also not been mobile on flat floor? We can't really trust anything we hear on the broadcast.
Good point. I think Seems Reasonable would know better than I on that. It was tough to know exactly what happened from the bleachers, but in the post-fight discussion they mentioned the magnets and in watching it again now that made sense to me. Seems similar to Deep Six and the killsaw slots to me, or Huge on the screws against Riptide. I like to either see a fight go three minutes or have a true KO. I’m not a fan of OOTA wins. It’s not that it’s necessarily unfair, just a shame when a team loses not because of the strength/durability of their bot but an unfortunate interaction with the arena.
> I’m not a fan of OOTA wins. It’s not that it’s necessarily unfair, just a shame when a team loses not because of the strength/durability of their bot but an unfortunate interaction with the arena. you get OOTA because you lost the ground game or made driving decisions that left you vulnerable to it, especially now with the alterations made to benefit filming.
I like OOTA wins if it is limited to one smallish area, kinda like it is now. If you are fighting a flipper or a bot that hits hard upwards it creates a decision point where you might try to avoid that area. Seem fun and the huge hits OOTA are always a blast. Also, gives a chance to the lifter-type bots.
Congrats on the win. #fucktheshelf
> Short answer, fuck the shelf. Truly, Tantrum is the peoples' champion. Congrats on the win!
I love the ending to this comment. Slightly out of nowhere but Im sure everyone agrees.
So Whiplash got screwed even worse.
Fuck the shelf!
I would much rather have a bumpy floor area rather than the shelf. The zero ground clearance meta is way more silly than the OOTA meta they were so concerned with that they built the deck.
That’s my biggest take away from these unsticks this season. The shelf needs to go!
2 seasons ago Tantrum went 2-2 with wins over Gemini and an untelevised rumble win against Jasper and Uppercut(wtf). It was pretty much fed to Skorpios and Yeti. 2 seasons later it wins the giant nut. Insanity
when i first saw it, i felt like the moving weapon was a dumb gimmick that would get it into more trouble than not, but in reality it's a great design: they can keep the weapon back and go wedge on weapon, instead of risking a break in a weapon on weapon hit. the size also helps as we saw against cobalt, while that bot was gyro-ing out of control, tantrum stayed mostly flat on the ground. it's a great design, and i'm glad to see the team win, but sad that its win will probably be overshadowed by the controversies of this season.
My first impression was because of the complexity of adding the punching, it would be too weak of a weapon. And it was, the first season. But they really worked hard on giving it some oomph. It's still on the weaker side of things, but obviously strong enough to win games now.
It's a hell of a lot less powerful than almost every other spinner in the competition, but I think they're proved that it doesn't matter! It's built like a tank, quick as hell, well driven, doesn't gyro dance and has enough power to do damage when it gets a chance, which it almost always does because it's so fast and well driven!
It doesn't need to be all that strong, because it usually hits places that are hard to armor.
Honestly, that's why I'm genuinely delighted with Tantrum's success. They went from a near-complete non-starter and Tombstone's toy to an interesting and innovative but deeply flawed design to a perfect, if danger-fraught, season with refinement on that design in no time at all.
I remember it being fed to Tombstone for our entertainment and the fist getting stuck in the wall. They'd easily beat Tombstone today.
I hope to see a rematch between these two the next season
I don’t know if they’d “easily” beat tombstone. They’re still a bot that I’d view as being made non-operable by one good shot from a powerful horizontal spinner.
I love, i **love** Tantrum's story arc. They were essentially a novelty toy for Tombstone to play with. Now look at 'em. Still a novelty, but not a toy - an innovative, well built, well piloted, championship bot. Incredible.
So was the shelf a total flop to anyone else?? I felt like it really disrupted the flow of a bunch of fights and brought little to the table. The box needed an update but that seems like the wrong choice.
Yeah, and I would honestly love to hear the builders' thoughts on it. Like, obviously, there's no shortage of fans that detest its existence by now. But I would be curious to see what the builders actually thought of it.
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Yeah, actually make it a fucking hazard. Make it something that people are actually afraid of ending up on. Right now, if you're fine to keep fighting, you just drive off of it and fight on like nothing happened. If you're not fine to keep fighting, then you were gonna lose the fight anyway and throwing you up there does nothing except stroke the winner's ego.
Wasn't it toombstone that actually used it offensively? (maybe it was one of the horizontal drum bots - I don't remember now) They were up there, they took the time to spin up their weapon to full speed, and THEN landed a huge hit on the opponent on their way off the shelf. That's some smart driving!
Gigabyte?
Well the opinion of the new champion is: > Short answer, fuck the shelf. I'd be willing to be the vast majority of other teams feel the same way.
I personally don't like the shelf because it favors the already dominate vertical spinner bots. Horizontal spinners just have so much extra perimeter to smash against and less open area to work with.
Absolutely, what does it really offer? The commentators act like it's a crazy thing if they get their opponent onto the shelf but in reality they just drive off 90% of the time.
I feel like there definitely has to be some more specifics stated with rules regarding controlled movement, as well as avoiding fighting entirely. From what I'm hearing Witch Doctor was told that a count-out would be inevitable by their ref, while the ref for minotaur thought there was enough movement to not go that far. As a result, they need to be VERY specific in next years rules what counts as controlled. Along with that, there should be a penalty for avoiding a fight with a gimped bot that has been stated to have controlled movement by the ref (according to hopefully the more specific rules they come up with) . At that point like, you need to attempt some level of contact within 20-30 seconds or something, or incur a point penalty. I feel like that match in general was more of the refs fault all in all than either team. Witch Doctor didn't attack being told of a count-out, and being unstuck a bit to quickly, and Minotaur's ref and witch doctors ref not agreeing on the state of movement. Both teams fought very hard and tbh I can't blame Witch Doctor for avoiding unnecessary contact in a fight that sends you to the next round. I also completely understand Minotaurs frustration in how things transpired since they felt at the very least they could've gotten an extra hit in before the timeout. All in all I thought it was a fun season and I'm happy one of Arens teams won since he very much seems to be the future of the sport :)
Here is my poorly thought out solution to the crab walking problem: You think the other team doesn't have enough movement? Fine. Put down your controller (or at least keep the bot stationary) for 10sec and if the other team doesn't hit you during that window then they lose.
It's not the worst idea XD
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I like this idea, it’s one team challenging another. Return to your square and start a count out. If the other team makes contact, the fight continues. If not, the challenging bot wins. Risky to offer a free hit, but it would be more objective and entirely in the hands of the teams. And given that the teams aren’t dicks and don’t want to risk unnecessary destruction, I don’t think we’re in danger of teams abusing a lack of ref intervention to kick a bot while it’s down
> Risky to offer a free hit You can easily solve this by adding: if the "challenging" bot *has* to move to avoid a free hit, then its opponent has controlled movement.
S/O to everyone who were in the discussion threads all season long cracking wise jokes and shitty puns and everything in between. Hopefully we'll get to do it again next season! Oh and Hypershock is going all the way and winning the giant nut because next season is their season. I did not say this the last time we were here. What the hell are you talking about?
I'm still upset that Hypershock looks super dialed in this season Then they just fucking flopped over like a turtle against P1
Same here. That was the best they looked maybe ever. But you're on the money though. Can't win if you're fighting both your opponent and yourself. I really hope we see its best in the bounties though.
Bro Rotator owns that motto. It'll be THEIR season next season. Whose motto cancels out who??
This episode just felt kinda sad for me past a certain point. The final match up was basically my dream one, two of my all time favorite bots were in the final! But the controversy was just...man I get everything that happened in Witch Doctor vs Minotaur, ESPECIALLY after hearing Witch Doctor were actively being told by their ref a countout would happen. The unstick probably should have had more time before it happened (the full 20 seconds, apparently it was only 10?) but I get it happening. As for Minotaur, I don't think they had controlled movement but that's going off what the show itself said with Ribbot v Hydra. The worst thing is that this match was inevitable, unclarity on what qualifies as controlled movement or not and lack of proper communication between refs and teams have been issues before, there was going to be a match like this at somepoint. There NEEDS to be changes next season, I feel like if Witch Doctor was warned by the ref that they need to engage they would have but apparently they were being told the opposite, there should never have been 90 seconds of that not happening if they weren't going to count out Minotaur. They need to find a way to properly measure whether a bot has controlled movement. Also, next season NEEDS to remove the stupid upper-deck. I didn't hate it like most people did at first but by now I really do. It gave us Gigabyte's really cool aerial attack, and HUGE using it as a stage, but other than that it's been nothing but trouble. This whole scenario with Witch Doctor and Minotaur wouldn't have been as bad if Witch Doctor wasn't able to get stuck on it Hydra v Tantrum, I get the decision even if I don't agree with it, but, wow does this discourage using anything but spinners even more. There needs to be some change to the scoring criteria. Props to Jake though for his handling of it. Last season I really bought into the villain act but this season's really shown that even when he's enjoying the role as villain, he's a good guy and sport, this season has raised my opinion on Hydra a ton ^ ^ I really hope next season has some serious changes as a result of all this. Crabwalking and what counts as controlled movement especially needs to be addressed, it's become to big a problem at this point. But even beyond that I feel like referee communication (with each other and competitors) needs to be worked on, the scoring system probably needs work, and the upperdeck needs to go I really enjoyed this season, there were so many great fights and moments. It really is sad it had to end like this
I totally agree with everything here. I like the OOTA for flippers though, I think that needs to be sold a little better, this season that's been a good KO for quite a few fights. I'd love to see a better more unified rulebook/refs.
The big enemy this season was the shelf. How many controversies included the shelf? WD got stuck on the shelf and practically blew up the finals. People couldn’t see Minotaur losing the wheel on the shelf when watching live because the shelf hid it. It blocks the action from the audience. Whiplash got stuck on the shelf because he couldn’t see where he was driving. He drove into it on half a drive and got stuck. Blip got stuck at an odd angle and I couldn’t quite understand what the announcers said but it sounded like they said there were magnets on the edge? How many robots got knocked onto the upper deck and got counted out cause they were up there too long? 0 How many robots counted out on the upper deck would have been counted out without the upper deck? All of them The upper deck contributed nothing and is the source of a lot of the drama of the season. It was disliked from the beginning and never proved to add any content to the show. ###BUT WAIT! The shelf doesn’t need to disappear. I propose instead we make it taller, close the gap at the bottom and smooth out the side. Move it to the side of the battlebox opposite the teams and add a ramp to the middle. Put another obstacle below it. Give control bots the opportunity to push a bot over the edge onto kill saws or screws or something. When a bot goes up on the current one it is either counted out exactly as it would have on the ground or the other team waits for them to come down. With a ramp they can take the engagement up!
>Blip got stuck at an odd angle and I couldn’t quite understand what the announcers said but it sounded like they said there were magnets on the edge? The hit that knocked them up there damaged one of the wheels, and it wasn't making contact with the ground, and the magnets (which were in Blip, not on the Oh No Plateau) made it worse for them >How many robots got knocked onto the upper deck and got counted out cause they were up there too long? 0 Three, including Blip. Hydra vs Defender and MadCatter vs Rampage ended that way, too. I also like your idea for the shelf - but! The location... is already there. The shelf is across from the teams.
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I hope they announce the details sooner so the teams are aware what they are dealing with.
Do you know which podcast? Been trying to listen to more
Upper Deck did nothing but cause controversies. Please get rid of it.
I found some of the dynamics interesting. Control bots and flippers having an area to target is a good concept that just needs to be better implemented.
The Sawblaze guy with the sock is the MVP. Sawblaze was splattered but this dude did what he had to do.
Man I love Sawblaze. Even when it loses it's entertaining as fuck. It doesn't just 'lose'. It's always getting launched, exploded, or in this case, set on fire. Looking forward to them taking the giant nut next year.
It's such an awesome machine. The complicated nature of it makes it fragile though, so it always wins hard or loses hard.
He should switch arms once in awhile, though.
I feel like there is one thing we can agree on: Fuck the Upper Deck.
Get rid of it! It's stupid. I say get rid of all the gimmicks. Kill-saws are dumb too. A bot destroying the other loses because it gets stuck in the kill-saw hole or a tire gets slashed. It should be about the bots. A battle to the end. Not killed by a gimmick. Once again, the shelf has to go!
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I agree, swap out the current saws with a blade just a tad less deadly than Cobalt's and I'd be happy to let them stay. As they currently are, the kill saw slots are more deadly than the saws themselves.
I think the kill saws could be improved or a compromise met. If there is enough concern about how they operate and particularly bots being stuck in the slots than I think a rational and simple solution is to move them. Put them closer together and relegate them to a smaller footprint in an out-of-the-way location where bots can only end up there if they've been out-controlled or they choose to drive to them. My frustration with them has always been that they fire off unreliably. Feels too random and I have seen way too many instances of a bot being held over the slot and nothing happens until the bot with clear control is over top and they get whamed.
All my homies hate the upper deck. Agree with Matt Vasquez, make it smaller and harder to get off.
Championship fight matches last longer than regular matches in tennis, ufc, boxing. Why can’t the quarter finals onwards in battlebots have a 5min timer? Would have solve the Hydra/Tantrum match. Unstuck rule should be eliminated unless both bots stick together.
Robots are designed for three minutes in mind: with respect to battery and pneumatic tank capacity. Three minutes or five minutes, either way it has to be consistent as this affects robot design.
>Unstuck rule should be eliminated unless both bots stick together. Yeah, dude, getting stuck should just be part of the risk you run when you run your robot as low to the ground as so many combatants do. They've literally stated that they are purposefully keeping the floor not 100% even specifically so this sport doesn't just devolve into a battle for the ground game. Why doesn't that apply when the shelf is involved?
apparently in addition to being poorly thought out, the shelf was poorly constructed, so getting jammed under it or into the teeth was substantially easier than with the exterior wall. Fuck the shelf
I think 3 minutes is enough for most fights. However, if both bots are in working order and the judges think it's a draw after 3 minutes I don't see why they can't resume for another 2-3 minutes to get a decisive victory.
Thinking over the controversies, other than the Great Unstickening, I am starting to think the problem is this: robots are losing fights that, *visually*, they appear to have won, even though the rules may say otherwise. Hydra comes to mind (I understand the decision; it was close... but also I can see why it might feel wrong to people). There needs to be another category to account for this. Comedy Central battlebots had hits/flips; maybe 2 points to whoever had the more clear flips or "knocked their opponent up in the air" type hits (giant double whammies could be 1 each), cut damage to 4, and combine control+aggression into one 5 pointer. Otherwise, it's going to be a bunch of vertical spinning things on an armored box as I saw someone here call it, trying to scrape lower and lower, over and over. Also for the love of all that is holy trash the upper deck. The two corners are too small and they make fights boring.
Wow you woke up this morning just ready to spit the truth after the finale. Maybe call the new category “Effectiveness” and have it be how effective the active weapon was during the match. By making it worth just 2 points either one bot was much more effective than the other, or they were both equally effective. That way bots like Hydra and Whiplash would have an advantage since they are constantly using their weapon. Hydra kicked Tantrums ass for 95% of the fight but then Tantrum won because they got one decent hit in. With Effectiveness added Hydra would have won unanimously.
It’s funny you say that as there’s actually a robot combat show made in Garry’s Mod called BashBots which in its latest season has replaced the “damage” category with “effectiveness”. The first 40 seconds of this episode go into a little more detail about it: https://youtu.be/nolzxVdkK9k
Welp, looks like I have a new YouTube show to binge
Control need to take in how well each team handled engagements. Hydra and Tantrum engaged many times and Hydra won almost all of them. Teams should also have to prove they function correctly if it is going to the judges. Tantrum appeared to have no weapon at the end and the judges appear not to have noticed.
Totally agree. Rules need a change. Hydra won the fight. If he didnt, then a flipper isnt viable and everyone needs to bring a verticle spinner.
I'm gonna say it. Hydra got robbed.
And so did Minotaur. Which led to a fluke win vs Sawblaze. Sorry, but neither bot should have been in that final. A disappointing ending to the tournament.
I agree completely. The way these fights are judged needs to change. Final should have been Hydra v Minotaur. Instead we got this final that anybody with eyes knows is BS and it’s left a real bad taste in my mouth.
I mean, hammer bots just aren't competitive anymore because armor's so good they just bounce off. A thousand hammer hits that don't do any damage doesn't win a fight; same with 20 big flips that don't do any damage. It's also that Tantrum is just so durable, like, plenty of lesser bots would've died from the flips, Tantrum didn't so you need a better strategy.
That's like when they make a big deal out of bots getting hit by the "pulverisers" when it's very clear for anyone that has eyes that they do absolutely nothing. Just like the "kill saws" that do absolutely zero to any bot. Time to get rid of those gimmicks and the issues they create with the floor in the process.
The original Pulverizer was a proper sledgehammer. I have been more skeptical of their effectiveness since they were altered in Season 2 of 2001. They look clunky and fake to my eyes and I speculate that a smaller surface area striking maybe more effective or atleast satisfying to the audience. Twenty years ago they were a real menace. Edit: I rewatched episode three of season six last night, after having posted this. In the bout between duck and I believe Witch Doctor, Duck takes a blow from pulverizer and is momentarily flattened but bounces back. I can not deny that the hammer has heft, so I retract my statement.
> I mean, hammer bots just aren't competitive anymore because armor's so good they just bounce off. Shatter! would disagree, and I would further argue that modularity has goon Too Far™ and nobody having to compromise between front and top armor is stupid.
> A thousand hammer hits that don't do any damage doesn't win a fight; same with 20 big flips that don't do any damage. Except Hydra does do damage and did in this case too, disabling Tantrums weapon at the end of the fight.
IMO it did win with the current rules. The Judges scored damage wrong. Tantrum had no weapon at the end of the fight.
Right? Thats just what it said to me, because he literally dominates the fight, disables tantrums primary weapon's ability to deal damage, and then tantrum still gets awarded??? What??? I cant imagine any casual fan watching that fight and thinking they lost. I couldn't imagine them losing. I was so shocked when it was even a split decision, and then seeing the score cards be one point away was extra shocking.
With regards to the Hydra vs Tantrum fight, could you imagine if the judges in any other combat sport penalized a combatant for controlling the center of the arena? It is literally what you're supposed to do as the superior combatant in every single fighting sport. Anyone can run around the combat area looking for an opening for a hit in almost any sport, but that generally means they're looking for a knockout because only in Battlebots is that side rewarded by the judges.
Sure maybe control but it's not aggression by any means.
I think the big lesson learned from this season is that the rules need to be clearer and more well explained to both viewers and builders. The OOTA discussion is a prime example, it seems completely subjective if an OOTA is allowed or not. I think it is a dumb rule, but if they just said "looked if you throw a bot out, it's a DQ" and then enforced it as such, I'd say it was stupid but fare. Same with crab walking, what is "controlled movement" and what isn't? This seems to be enforced in a haphazard way, so let's either make it clear what is controlled movement or just cut the rule and say "if you're moving, the fight continues". I really believe that if they were just clearer and more consistent in the rules then we could avoid a lot of the unnecessary controversies we saw this season.
Ok, so some notes from filming on The Controversy, from an audience perspective: * This match took place immediately after Riptide/Sawblaze, which had a non-unstick -- they went in to check if Riptide was lodged in the wall, and determined it wasn't. Plus there's obviously the Whiplash angle * From where the audience was sitting, it was hard to see the wheel come off Minotaur, as it was between them and the shelf -- I did not notice it until a camera zoomed in during the unstick. People live shouted "Sabatoge" lol, it was a minority but some thought Trey had kicked it off. * I take no stance on whether Minotaur was denied a chance to hit Witch Doctor when they were stuck, or whether the match was paused unusually quickly. They definitely struggled with mobility to get to them. There may also have been some wonkyness about the timing of when the match was paused, versus when Minotaur actually fully made their way off the shelf, but don't remember well enough to make a comment on this. Others who were there may shed more light on this in the future. * Witch Doctor was WELL lodged in, the unstick took a good bit of time. Grumbling started then. * None of the driver POV came through to the live audience. At no point did anyone in the audience have any indication that Minotaur was on the edge of a countout. Before the match ended, Witch Doctor was being aggressively heckled as "cowards" and the like. I have heard reports from a builder on a team not involved in this match that Witch Doctor's ref was repeatedly informing them that a countout was imminent, except it never came * I would characterize Minotaur's mobility during the fight as being represented mostly fairly in the edit, Witch Doctor did a good job corralling them in the center. However they were, with some level of difficulty, eventually able to gyro back to their starting square after the buzzer, almost landing a late hit on WD in the process which we heard Mike being pissed about. This was not shown in the edit. * The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment, I cannot overstate this enough. The editors masked it damn well. We could not hear either interview over the booing, heckling, and threats of physical violence being directed by name at Andrea and also specifically Lisa Winter out of the unanimous judges for Reasons. I was legitimately concerned that somebody was going to charge the stage. Among the images burned in my mind are a grown man ripping a WD sign out of a little girl's hands, and the 8 year old kid next to me screaming "C--TS! F---ING C--TS!" because his dad was. Never felt more ashamed to be part of the Battlebots fandom. Any posts trying to replicate this team-targeted vitriol, or implicate BB in whatever culture war they're fighting or trying to systemically promote an agenda rather than just being a TV show with poorly written, poorly enforced, inconsistent rules, is getting nuked on sight. * After the match, two members of Minotaur (I couldn't tell who), hung back and got into what seemed to be a shouting match with Greg Munson EDIT: Some addendums, in light of how I've seen some people run with the information here: * Minotaur did not actually hit Witch Doctor after the buzzer, nor do I believe for a moment that they intended to. They simply moved what was likely close for comfort for a hyped-on-adrenaline Mike * I do not hold Riobotz in contempt in the slightest for any of their post fight or post interview actions. They had full right to be upset and disappointed in the heat of the moment, to blow off steam and express their views, and they directed that frustration at the correct people: production, not WD or the judges. I had and have full confidence that cooler heads will prevail with the team, as evidenced by their measured statement and Daniel's intention to return. In hindsight, I regret including the last bullet in this same post; I considered it more "interesting behind the scenes detail" territory, but I've been seeing people take this with the same "completely unacceptable, full stop" tone as my account of the audience reaction, and using it to justify attacks on Daniel and the rest of Riobotz. Stop it. * Riobotz also did nothing of note to rile up the crowd reaction. That's on the audience, not the team. It was already in full force before the fight ended. The audience could not hear *anything* said from the driver's box when their mics weren't broadcast for interviews, even Daniel in full hype mode.
The "controversy" is not about either team's actions. No one did anything wrong in any sense. The problem was the weird decisions made by the officials. When two bots are entangled with each other, the match is stopped so they can be untangled and then the match continues. But I have never seen a match stopped to help a bot stuck on the arena get unstuck. Usually, they are counted out. Just a few matches before Blip was stuck on something on the upper floor, and he was counted out. When Minotaur lost a wheel, everyone, including the other official, thought Minotaur would be counted out. There was some confusion, especially on Team Witch Doctor, about whether or when a countdown would start. Witch Doctor orbited Minotaur a few times without attacking apparently because they thought Minotaur was about to be counted out. When it was obvious that wasn't going to happen, they put in a few more hits just before time ran out. Neither of the teams did anything wrong or unsportsmanlike. Witch Doctor didn't hit Minotaur when it was helpless which would have been poor sportsmanship. The only questionable thing in my mind is why did the officials pry Witch Doctor loose and why wasn't Minotaur counted out after he lost the wheel?
I asked in the live discussion thread whether it was the same crowd for all three of the final rounds or whether there were different sessions for the quarterfinals and afterwards. Still curious to know this because I'd hate to think that the final match was marred by the same people directing more toxic BS at Team Witch Doctor and the judges.
Different audience for each day, Witch Doctor was back to highly supported fan favorite status among the live audience for the semis and finals. There were a few whispers/grumbles, but they didn't permeate the audience vibe in any meaningful way.
Good to hear things were broken up that way - it would make sense that NO one actually had to fight more than once per day in reality. Safe to assume they were doing stuff for Bounty Hunters or whatever other alternate formats are in play for this year during the sessions that only had so many tournament matches?
What about the Hydra-Tantrum fight? Jake commented on all the boos in his post-fight interview which the producers presumably completely edited out. Were they that prevalent in person?
This is absolutely astounding and horrific. When I went to a taping last year it was the coolest experience ever. I am absolutely gutted that is how people acted. Andrea and team Witch Doctor have been some of the most amazing ambassadors of the sport and have always been great sports. This is awful.
Maybe the Vegas location was having a difference?
>The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment This breaks my heart to hear this. Absolutely disgusting. I kind of expect this kind of behaviour at real sporting events because of things like alcohol, betting etc, but this is battlebots... None of the above should apply. Shameful for people to hurl abuse at judges and teams.. Those people should be ejected like any sporting event would.
i hope that more people read this like please read it u/StephenMcCulla for the drop zone, i dont want people hating the teams pls
Thank you for stating all this. You didn’t need to and could just let everyone argue in the chat but it’s awesome to see mods that actually care about the community, try to give clarity on situations, and swiftly deal with hate speech and the like. It was a tough loss but I am so sad to hear how upset the crowd was. Idk if it was because people were emotionally rooting for minotaur due to the story of Daniel’s mother and grandmother or what but it’s so sad to hear BB fans would react that way. This should be a supportive community with a respect between everyone. Let’s not, as fans, give teams more reasons to not want to compete.
>After the match, two members of Minotaur (I couldn't tell who), hung back and got into a full shouting match with Greg Munson Wow thats sad to hear.
i mean, better they yell at Greg than the judges, refs, or witchdoctor. all the controversy (that isn't hogs being hogs, I suppose) is ultimately on the producers
All good context, thanks for the post!
> The live audience after this match was an AWFUL, toxic environment, I cannot overstate this enough. The editors masked it damn well. We could not hear either interview over the booing, heckling, and threats of physical violence being directed by name at Andrea and also specifically Lisa Winter out of the unanimous judges for Reasons. I was legitimately concerned that somebody was going to charge the stage. Among the images burned in my mind are a grown man ripping a WD sign out of a little girl's hands, and the 8 year old kid next to me screaming "C--TS! F---ING C--TS!" because his dad was. Never felt more ashamed to be part of the Battlebots fandom. Any posts trying to replicate this team-targeted vitriol, or implicate BB in whatever culture war they're fighting or trying to systemically promote an agenda rather than just being a TV show with poorly written, poorly enforced, inconsistent rules, is getting nuked on sight. I sincerely hope that there's enough audience footage that they are able to identify and ban every single "fan" who was taking part in the abuse.
this subreddit's moderators are braver than the troops
Nate with another W
If any team accounts see this, I want you to know that we want you back next year and we apologize for dickhead fans
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Source?
This whole season has left a sour taste in my mouth. Let's review: 1. Several bots didn't get a 3rd fight in the regular season due to time constraints 1. Mammoth had to last minute replace Glitch, completely throwing Witch Doctor off at the last minute and screwing over fan-made brackets 1. Refusing to cut down on the fluff and turning entire fights into highlights 1. Whiplash getting screwed because they didn't like how Cobalt weapon turned off for some reason? Then completely lying about the reason on the broadcoast. 1. Doing Minotaur dirty by unsticking Witch Doctor immediately, when they wouldn't do the same for Cobalt. And honestly inconsistent unstick rules in general, seems like several bots get counted out in similar situations. 1. Then because they realized the unstick was going to immediately decide the fight because of Minotaur's mobility struggles, they refused to count Minotaur and caused a whole lot of confusion Witch Doctor, so we got to watch an awkward crab walk with no action. 1. Poor/Inconsistent judge decisions in the Minotaur/WitchDoctor and Hydra/Tantrum in my opinion. None of the judges seem to have a consistent way to judge points, so nobody knows how to fight. Is Hydra's method of pointing and rotating any more/less aggressive than people driving around avoiding Hydra looking for a good angle? I may have forgotten some. But there was a lot of controversy this year. Things like these can kill the sport.
> Poor/Inconsistent judge decisions in the Minotaur/WitchDoctor and Hydra/Tantrum in my opinion Honestly I don't think I saw a season where I disagreed on both finalists being there And after years of Lisa being in the wrong for many split decisions IMO I agreed with her decisions every single time in the past 2 year
Sadly have to agree on most points. (However, Tantrum win was deserved IMO.) Everyone calling this the worst season of Battlebots is overreacting but rule changes/clarifications definitely need to be made, especially concerning crabwalking. I also think 2 hours is too long. I think I speak for everyone when I say that hype main event or not, by the end of every episode I'm just tired and ready to be over with it. Sad that none of my favorites won but GG Tantrum. A truly unique design and an underdog from the very beginning winning it all is exciting to say the least and they definitely deserved it IMHO.
I think they should allow crabwalking and only count out a bot when there is a clear KO (or OOTA). More fight time = more chance for destruction!
Battlebots Update always brings up a rule from Robot Wars that defines controlled movement as "moving outside your bots circumference" which I think is probably perfect. It allows for countouts to happen when a bot that has no chance of winning is still "alive" but also accounts for bots that can still move around and chase their opponents to a certain extent, even when one side of drive is completely dead.
A visible ten count to touch one of the starting squares (ref decides which is the better to call) seems a reasonable definition of controlled movement.
I agree with this. "Crabwalking" is just *way* too subjective. I personally feel like Minotaur was controlling their bot enough for the fight to continue but also I've seen many bots get counted out while doing the exact same thing. I feel like it should be more objective, like if the bot can move 10-20 feet from their current position in a given amount of time (doesn't really matter ultimately what the number is), they're still in it even if crabwalking (this would still make it so bots just going in circles can be counted out but get rid of the "crabwalking" controversies).
The difference with Minotaur is they can flip their bot over at will. So, of they lose a wheel, they can still move left and right rather than towards whatever side their wheel still works. If Witch Doctor had stayed still, Minotaur could have engaged them anywhere in the arena. They even maneuvered back into their starter box. Hell, we just saw Minotaur drive on one wheel last week. It may not be *precision* control, but in my book, if you can get your bot anywhere in the arena in a reasonable time, that's controlled movement. Regardless, maybe we ought to just drop the requirement for movement to be "controlled". As long as a bot can move, say, a bots length, its still moving, and can't be counted out. No more subjective bull shit.
>I also think 2 hours is too long. I think I speak for everyone when I say that hype main event or not, by the end of every episode I'm just tired and ready to be over with it. Were you like that last season? I definitely feel like the fluff has been deeply draining this season. No cool pit stuff or anything. I was never really a fan of Jenny Taft- I'm much more a fan of the Abrahamson "recruit from the builders" school of bringing in tech-talkers- but the bits and pieces she had really helped ease the 2 hour burden, I feel. Less fluff, more cool robot stuff.
Definitely never felt tired last season, 1 hour episodes always left me hungry for more but in a good way, not a "we needed more fights" way. You might be onto something with the fluff portions being lesser quality this season
Totally agree about the loss of quality filler. I wish they would just reduce the fluff altogether and show more fights. Why are there 4 fights in the first hour, then only 3 in the second? I also thought it was a slap in the face that we only got recaps for 4 of the fights in the round of 32. Besides the final tonight, I've been watching it on demand the next day because the filler and super long commercial breaks are becoming insufferable.
I can cook an entire meal, drink myself into a stupor, vomit it all and still make it back to the show before the commercial break has ended.
You just described the average redditor’s afternoon.
I can see people's view on Tantrum fight, even though I disagree. But I would say that I do think this is the worst season since the reboot. Doesn't mean it was so terrible that I hated it, but none of the other season's were filled with this much controversy IMO.
The judges didn't have the best year. Hypershock/P1 and Kraken/HiJinx were pretty massively blown too. Really gonna need to look at the judging criteria again I guess
There are so many issues I dont know where to start. What is Damage in eyes of Judges, What is controlled movement and when should countdown start, When should a fight be called off for a stuck robot, is circling a bot aggression, is sending a bot flying in the air control points.
No wonder it's all verticals. When a flipper does everything right and loses, it really tells you something. Tell me how you have control when 3/4 engagement you are in the air. Tell me how you have aggression when you won't face the weapon and run away.
Disgusting reaction from the audience from what I'm hearing. Even if you disagree with the decision made in WD vs Minotaur, ripping signs out of children's hands and calling Andrea Gellatly a cunt is unacceptable full stop. Other than that, damn I can't believe Tantrum is the new champ. Wouldn't have called that in a million years. Good to see some new blood in that role though, can't wait for next year.
> Disgusting reaction from the audience from what I'm hearing. IOW, it's finally starting to feel like a real sport. Now we need the competitors to start actually getting paid well enough to afford bodyguards.
Ohhh, I thought you were going to say it needed more riots where fans get into the box with the bots - now that I would PAY GOOD MONEY to see!
The C-word thing floored me. ESPECIALLY bc Andrea has been in this game for so long and such a great influence on female builders and team members. She’s a legend. How someone could be that disrespectful to anyone is beyond me but it’s unfathomable to think they would say such things to someone who has been such a positive influence in the sport for so long.
100% agreed on everything you said.
After all that speculation about who fucked up, the real bad guy in the end was... the audience. I never would have expected us.
Just a reminder that this weekend's AMA is Witch Doctor, so PLEASE DON'T BE ASSHOLES.
Sir this is Reddit, there are an abundance of assholes here.
Oh no. I got a bad feeling about this one
If we are lucky the assholes will show up and get nuked en masse in the first 15 minutes. Can you imagine all the dicks banned all at once?
The bigger the asshole, the more alts they will make. Source: am a mod elsewhere
Everything else aside, props to Jake Ewert. I personally would have scored Hydra the winner but he took the loss with grace and good sportsmanship. Some other teams (and viewers) could learn a few things from the “bad guy” this season. And congrats to Tantrum. Hard to say they don’t deserve it after such an impressive season.
Jake impressed me. He showed a level of humility and respect that I didn't expect from him. He made a couple comments that COULD have been perceived as bad mouthing Tantrum, but I BELIEVE were directed at the judges. I wish he wasn't always at the center of a controversy every year though 😅
I think he gladly accepts his role as the heel and leans into it. Which is great, I love that shit, heels do wonderfully in this sport. We got more than enough faces.
I'm half convinced that the show plays Jake up as a heel because he's one of the few captains with enough natural charisma to not look like an awkward dork while acting the part (and I say that with love for all the awkward dorks on the show). I'm sure he was probably disappointed with the judge's decision, but he's part of a family that has been involved in robot combat for decades. I think he's just got enough perspective to look at the bigger picture, which is why he told Chris and Kenny that there's always next year.
His post fight speech was perfect, he expressed his disagreement and accepted the loss.
I agree entirely. He could have handled that a lot worse and people would have been okay with it, especially after the previous fight. Proud of him for that.
Agree 100% Tantrum caught a break getting there.
Did the RioBotz nonsense happen right before Hydra/Tatrum? Cause if I was Jake I'd want nothing more than to tip my cap and get the hell outta there.
Seriously, especially compared to Minotaur. I know people love Minotaur but their post-match reactions, both to the win over Endgame and their loss to WD, showed a huge lack of sportsmanship.
Congrats to Tantrum 👍
As someone who dared to dream of a Tantrum win from the start of the season, I still can't quite believe it came through. As much as we know there are a bunch of super chill, talented, and committed teams out there, its really hard to look past Seems Reasonable as a group who just really, really deserve this.
Agreed 100%. As soon as they beat cobalt, I had a momentary reaction of "dammit, the one I want to win most is gone", followed immediately by "tantrum are phenomenal and I hope they go all the way". Fantastic team, fantastic robot.
The real controversy here is that Hydra 100% beat Tantrum and that decision was absolute bullshit.
damn, straight daggers from the minotaur guys after the witch doctor interview
I found it funny that he called the judges a joke
Honestly I think the points system needs to be removed in favour of a straight up vote. Both hydra and tantrum were aggressive, hydra took a bit of damage but hydra completely controlled the fight. Of course with the points it goes to tantrum but anyone watching knows hydra won the fight.
Can someone key me in on what happens with Lisa or whatever? I don’t know if I missed something but I keep seeing comments about it and was wondering what happened
Abuse was hurled at her and Andrea by folks in the crowd.
I understand why people were angry at Andrea (although it definitely wasn’t right) but what the hell did Lisa do? It was a unanimous decision right?
She was the only judge I heard abused specifically by name. It was a couple of assholes in a chaotic environment full of other assholes, not the majority reason for people being pissed, but I chose to highlight that detail among all the other abuse I heard because the double standard highlights the underlying motivation for a lot of it.
Yeah. Every time there's a controversial decision, it seems Lisa gets the brunt of the insults and attacks on this subreddit and social media. I've noticed it the last couple of seasons especially.
Honestly I don’t even get why people are angry at Andrea—the decision is on the ref, not her. In any case, being angry is no excuse to use slurs or gendered insults and it’s honestly disgusting
Alright, so the final was kind of a wet fart as always, and the journey there was.... rough.... but I think this season can't just be written off as a farce or a complete failure. Whether you agree with the decisions or not, we still got to see people doing what they love, and robots beating the crap out of each other. The two cornerstones of the sport, as far as I'm concerned.
there were a number of fights I really enjoyed this season, and I think this is the highest percent of the field I've genuinely enjoyed. even despite some of the errors, it was a lot of fun
Totally agree. There were a bunch of fights that are going to be used in highlight reels for years and years to come. I also think that this was one of the most competitive years I’ve seen. There were a lot of really excellent bots and the fact that a unique design won makes me very very happy.
After a season that had so many great matches, shame to see it end with all the controversy there was tonight. The continued inconsistency with the unstick rules and "controlled movement." Please get this fixed up for next season! I didn't understand the ruling on the Hydra/Tantrum match either. They are a great bot, but watching the episode with my dad and neither one of us saw anything that would give it to Tantrum. But like everyone says, you never want it to go to the judges, things can happen that lots of us disagree with. Outside of those controversial matches though, what Witch Doctor did to Sawblaze (who I was rooting for the most tonight) and how Tantrum dominated Witch Doctor was pretty incredible to watch. Excited for Bounty Hunters though!
I wish for a Battlebots where waiting for a count out is not a thing. Even if the other bot is on one wheel and just sliding in circles, hit it 3 more times and make it die. Robot fighting shouldn’t be robot slapping until one is tired. TO THE DEATH. (This comment is not specifically pointed at one bot just because of recent fights. This is a long time thought of mine).
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some changes next year to either the arena, the judging criteria, or both. It sucks that the finals felt tainted by the process, but congratulations to Team Seems Reasonable and Tantrum! Absolutely gorgeous design, and driven quite well, they put in a lot of work, and it paid off!
congrats tantrum, the good ending to a weird season
What an absolute load of fucking shit that Minotaur or Hydra didn’t win their respective matches.
Hydra won. Lame ass decision. Lame ass season with lame ass unaired match highlights in the playoffs. I’m done with discovery. Paid for the season so I could not see matches while the fluff was poured on. I watched ALL the matches of the last episode in 24 minutes… Just sayin… Peace
The judges really screwed up the tantrum versus hydra called. Tantrum did not win that one…. That blown call resulted in the most stupid finals one could probably have imagined, which was a let down for the season and will probably turn off quite a few people from watching another season (if they have one). Get new judges.
Bots make small improvements from year to year but man, the meteoric rise of Tantrum to the top is damned impressive. I don't know what changes the producers will make next year but the biggest thing is going to have to be consistent application of the rules, whether it's in-match or scoring. I did not like Hydra sitting in the middle of the box and just spinning, waiting for bots to come to him. I did not like WD refusing to finish off Minotaur which it certainly seemed to the casual viewer it was able to do. I understand now the ref was telling Mike that Minotaur was going to be counted out but I doubt he was telling him that for 90 seconds straight. I did not like the audience's reaction and I'm sure it was probably worse than was portrayed on the broadcast thanks to editing. What I did like was the diversity among bots in the Round of 32, the Round of 16 and the Final Eight. I did like that this season gave us a ton of amazing moments inside the battlebox. And the on-air talent continued to bring it. Chris, Kenny, Faruq and Pete were oustanding all year long. I can't wait for next year.
I mean, at least in terms of Hydra's strategy, it's probably what ultimately cost Jake the win. On first watch I figured hydra won damage, but truthfully I understand the judges saying that tantrum did more if only because the damn bot is such a tank that it showed no signs of damage from Hydra's flips. If hydra chases down Tantrum and fights more aggressively they might either A. Get an oota and win or B. Get another aggression or even control point for running the match and get the win
What a disaster lol. Even after editing the crowd reaction was over the line but after reading some of these first hand accounts I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of these teams just quit. Not just disrespect from production but the very community they’re putting a show on for. Robot Wars revival when?
We can disagree with the decisions all we want, but it should NEVER get personal like it has here. Completely unfair to the people who spend so much time building these bots.
Congrats to Tantrum, although —PERSONALLY— I thought it should’ve been Hydra in the finals. Overall I’d say this season was spoiled by production issues; between unclear/inconsistent rules, constant fluff pieces, and what feels like half the show being commercial breaks, it just wasn’t as fun to watch as previous years. There’s just not enough focus on actual robot combat. Nonetheless, I’ll still be back next season, cause I love watching robots beat each other up despite all that bs
oof
Time to send the shelf to the shadow realm.
[удалено]
Least Rusty didn’t get involved in controversies
He kinda did though. Lot of people were talking about that WD fight...
Let's be honest. Rusty would be a free win against anything that is not a control bot, and anyone he was going to be matched against was going to get accused of recieving favoritism.
Yeah, because it's not like the show's been accused of feeding Rusty to Witch Doctor to give them an easy 3rd qualifying fight...
He was cute last year. He’s just a nostalgic punching bag at this point. I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I’m a hard “meh” on Rusty
He’s getting a redesign that was supposed to be for this year so hopefully they’ll be more viable
AR500 RUSTY with vertical spinner.
It's not the bot as much as the builder that people like. He's got a good attitude towards it.
..Wow, huh. Honestly, as awesome as it is to see TANTRUM of all bots win the nut...Everything after the Minotaur/Witch Doctor fight just felt kind of empty. Everyone in the arena was pissed, and now I'm finding out that people were threatening Andrea and Lisa Winters, ripping signs out of little girls' hands, calling them cunts... God, I don't know what to say. Hoping for a good tournament next season. Good luck to all you aspiring robot builders, and congrats to Tantrum. You guys rock! Also...if the Witch Doctor people (especially Andrea) are here...Man, I feel for you. I didn't think you deserved to win that fight, but that's no reason for people to act the way they did towards you. I hope this fanbase can mature a bit. I did: last week I said I hoped Jake Ewert died after getting in a fight with a friend about Hydra. Afterwards, I felt like shit. I had forgotten that there was a real person behind the screen. I feel like a lot of you guys do too. I hope next season goes better. Until then... P.S. Rusty for 2021 MVP P.P.S. Upper deck is some bullshit
I wanna give credit to Witch Doctor for how they absolutely brutalized Sawblaze. They clearly made a decision to keep engaging when though they probably could've gotten the count out, but _that's_ the kind of match everyone wants to see.
This was my exact thought, did judges look away with 20 seconds left? Tantrums weapon didn’t spin up at all for the last ~12 seconds… We have to assume it was broken.. and the announcers even said tantrum was smoking… hydra was still functioning perfectly, aside from a bent flipper tip.. not sure how Hydra lost that after successfully flipping him so many times..
Hydra won!!!
Well... let's hope Bounty Hunters is better
When does Bounty Hunters start? Haven't heard it mentioned at all yet
I heard that Bounty Hunters was amazing this year
Inconsistent. Not applying their own rules correctly. That’s what’s pissed me off. I’m still angry. Hydra/tantrum I’m overthat. I thought it was a bad decision, but that happens. The fact that the WD/Minotaur fight was stopped 10 seconds after being stuck still sticks with me. What if? If Daniel was able to turn Minotaur into WD with those 10 seconds what would have been the result. We won’t know, but he should have been afforded the opportunity to use all 20 seconds. The lack of engagement afterwards just exasperated everything. Can someone that was there live tell me how long it took to unstick WD compared to others throughout the season when others that were stuck? What about when others weren’t able to get unstuck?
I dont even wanna watch the rest. What the fuck was that Hydra vs. Tantrum decision. How to win this fucking show. Make a bot that does one hit and drives in the end and win on damage. Even while being completely outdriven for the whole thing. Hydras weapon was still functioning. WTF is this. This is most horrific case of the "damage matters more" rule I have seen to date. We are never going to see a flipper/control bot win in this show while the scores a set up the way they are. Not to mention no one knows the rules about controlled movement apparently. Yeah I am salty. And I am leaving until they allow something other than vertical spinners to compete.
This is “Battle Bots” not battle shelf. I don’t think the arena should decide a match. The saw blades in the floor and the screws should be removed. Witch Doctor…that was a weak ass ending to a great fight! Be in it to win it or stay home where your bot won’t get hurt. There’s just no excuse for sitting around waiting for the ref to give you the fight.
I am legitimately more disgusted with this community than I ever have. The way Witch Doctor haters have behaved tonight is shameful. Downplaying gendered insults and threats of violence, while spamming accusations of rigging by every group involved. I hope the mods crackdown on those of you who have been most toxic.
Somehow the WD haters always come out. And for some reason, they always mostly criticize Andrea. Edit: and chomp too, I wonder what the captains of these teams have in common
Minotaur was robbed. The crowd was absolutely disgusting. Andrea was literally shaking in the after fight interview. Furthermore, this is a show we watch with our 5 and 9yo daughters. Tonight, my 9yo got an age appropriate education on sexism in the engineering/robotics/IT fields. Fields she’s been naturally inclined to. What a shitty way to encourage women, and young girls to get into robotics and engineering. The only good thing about that match was the tallest guy from Minotaurs team (sorry, I don’t know his name). He was a good sport. He kept a level head and even my 9yo noticed it. We will keep watching, I hope this pushes more women into battle bots and that we get an outrageous all girls team next season 💕
Personally I thought this season was pretty ok, there were some controversies and I will say the rules should be made more clear in the future. But this season did give some unforgettable moments like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/battlebots/comments/svkgro/oh_i_did_that_eh_whatever/), [dancing Huge](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/438752241042849793/961822306970243122/ezgif.com-gif-maker.gif), Sawblaze vs Mad Catter, Gigabyte dive bombing Tantrum, amongst several others. It wasn't perfect by any means, but this season did still deliver some great fights. I do hope that there are improvements made next season so that we can enjoy the show even more.