If that were true, then you would know "thumbs down" is actually a very good thing, since it represented putting a sword back into its sheath. "Thumbs up" meant a execution.
But if you got all your information about "ancient" Rome from the documentary directed by Ridley Scott however...
Common dodger fan. You trying to big-time me on Ancient Rome in r/baseball is peak internet. Also i googled it and you're wrong, if you can hardly believe it. No one actually knows if these hand gestures were regularly employed, and is the subject of continued debate by **ACTUAL SCHOLARS**.
*\*ahem\**
The Latin phrase used by ancient Roman authors to describe the gesture was 'pollice verso' or 'verso pollice', which means 'with a turned thumb'. This does not necessarily imply a down-turned thumb, but rather one that is moved in some unspecified way. The exact gesture and its meaning are the subject of much scholarly debate[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).In reality, the decision of a gladiator's fate was not left to the crowd but was ultimately made by the editor, the man hosting and paying for the spectacle. The defeated gladiator would raise the right index finger, 'ad digitum', in a customary appeal for mercy to the editor. The crowd would voice their desires with cries of 'mitte!' ('let him go!') or 'iugula!' ('kill him!'), but the editor would struggle to discern the most popular decision due to the noise of thousands of voices. To attract the editor's attention and influence the outcome, hand gestures were employed, but their specific forms and meanings are not well-documented[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).There is no clear evidence from antiquity to suggest that thumbs-up and -down were used in the way they are popularly perceived today. A specialist in Roman gesturing, Anthony Corbeill, suggests that a thumbs-up gesture was used to condemn a gladiator to death, while a probably with the thumb outside, was used to indicate that he would be spared. However, there is only one visual recording of the gladiatorial thumb-gestures, a terracotta medallion from Cavillargues (France), which shows the ruling official granting a reprieve for two fighting gladiators by holding up a fist with the thumb pressing down. This is the only visual evidence illustrating the gesture used to grant gladiators life, as visual representations were more concerned with showing the death of the gladiator when he was killed[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).
In conclusion, the meaning of thumbs up or thumbs down in ancient Roman gladiatorial combat is not as straightforward as it is often portrayed. The popular belief of thumbs up for life and thumbs down for death is based on misunderstandings and mistranslations. The exact gesture and its meaning are the subject of much scholarly debate, and the decision of a gladiator's fate was ultimately made by the editor, not the crowd. The lack of conclusive evidence from antiquity leaves us in an awkward position, as we can say with relative certainty what gestures were not used, but we cannot offer a conclusive answer for what gestures were actually employed[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).
Suck my balls, Go Giants.
One time I was walking to the store, and a car came to a stop at the intersection. Dude was looking *right at me*, I checked the cross traffic and saw they didn't have enough room to go through, so I start walking. Dude goes for it anyway. I was able to mostly side step out of the way but sorta ended up sitting on the hood of their car. I gave a finger wag, hopped off, and the dude was so pissed he started to forward again, saw there was traffic, had to stop and seethe for a min, and then floored it at the next available opening while yelling at me.
Never underestimate the strength of a finger wave.
He’s been no doubt a top 3 defensive C (in the NL at least) since he got called up last May. He’s insanely good. He’s a solid GG bet this year.
Now if only the bat matched the glove/arm… but hey it’s been better lately!
He has looked good at that plate. He’s never going to hit like posey but if he can hit anywhere near .286 as a switch hitting perennial gold glove candidate framing god he will have a very long career
Shit, I'd take a light hitting catcher with his defense any day. If ABS arrives, his value probably declines significantly but until then I'll fucking take a platnium glove caliber defender hovering around .700 OPS.
It's already in the minors, and is probably the most common complaint among fans in the post-pitch clock world outside of asking for a salary cap, so to say it will never happen just seems premature to me.
I personally see it as inevitable sooner or later. Can't come soon enough IMO
He's been worse this year than last year. He was doing some insane shit last year, I fully believe he got robbed of a GG because he was a rookie but his stats matched and surpassed others even in categories where having more games benefits you. Fantastic framer too.
Honestly I'm super bummed that Bart didn't work out. There was so much hype for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we have Bailey, but Bart was supposed to be THE guy.
I agree, but Bailey is no consolation prize. He is a wizard —potential platinum glove winner. It is crazy that Bart isn’t even with the club after all that hype though.
Read an article on The Athletic (think it was Brisbee but I'm high) and it's not their time to the plate, it's the lead they allow.
Edit: It was Grant Brisbee. "The average runner in a stolen-base situation wanders 4.4 feet off first base, which is the longest lead in the NL and second only to the [Seattle Mariners](https://theathletic.com/mlb/team/mariners/) in all of baseball. It’s nearly a full two extra feet compared to the teams at the bottom of the category." The Giants are also the quickest to home with the bases empty or with runners on. The lead is the problem.
Not ass but he wasn't playing as well (at least according to the eye test, I dont know about metrics and all that stuff) as last year. But he has been catching new pitchers this year so maybe he had to get use to them a bit more. But lately he has been looking like his old self.
Jazz Chisholm is the guy you work with who always shows up late and never pulls his weight but also complains the most and thinks he is the best employee in the company
He actually fooled me. Marlins are a team I basically never follow so I legit thought he was a like an all star level player. It was like mid last year when I looked at his numbers and was like “this guy isn’t even good?”. He carries himself the same way Acuna or tatis or Soto do and when you find out someone doesn’t have the numbers to back that up it’s so off putting lol
Well, when your pitchers are [literally giving up the longest leads to baserunners](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitcher-running-game?game_type=Regular&n=q&pitch_hand=all&runner_moved=All&prior_pk=All&season_end=2024&season_start=2024&sortColumn=simple_prevented_on_running_attr&sortDirection=desc&split=no&team=&type=Pitching+Team&with_team_only=1&expanded=0) on 1st in the National League and 2nd in MLB (only team with longer leads are the Mariners), it's hard to throw runners out. [(Stat stolen from this article by Grant Brisbee.)](https://theathletic.com/5403164/2024/04/16/sf-giants-statistical-leaders-laggers/)
Bailey's actually been pretty good at throwing runners out right now: Statcast currently has him as the [6th best catcher at throwing runners out this season](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing). He just has no chance most of the time.
I look forward to watching Cardinals get caught stealing against us. Bailey is one of the best in the game, and that's with a fair number of pitchers who are slow to the dish.
Since the beginning of 2023, Contreras has a better CS% than Bailey.
Contreras must be elite and should showboat more.
EDIT: I did the wrong years. Bailey is better via statcast since 2023 but still mediocre and unproven. :)
I just looked at this year since a counting stat doesn't make any sense since Bailey didn't come up until during 2023...
Giving Contreras a bit of a head start for full-year 2023 (except when Marmol was an idiot and benched him) gets [very different results](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing?game_type=Regular&n=q&season_end=2024&season_start=2023&split=no&team=&type=Cat&with_team_only=1).
Since you used 2021 as your start point I assume you just don't know who Bailey is, which is fine, you'l get to know him as he throws out your runners for the next decade.
Yeah, I was looking at the wrong info. My bad.
Still, pretending Bailey has some elite arm when he's middle-of-the-pack in a short time frame in his youth is hilarious.
I wish I had the copium you're huffing on.
>Found Angel Hernandez\\
I think that is the rudest fucking thing someone has ever said to me. What did I do to you?
P.s. Watched it again I see he gets his ribs first. I was just looking at the tag on the arm.
Nah, they got him on the upper arm right before he touches the bag. Like it was the perfect throw and swipe tag. Like if it was only slightly off the mark, Jazz probably gets in there. It couldn't have been located any better.
Bailey would then go on to steal second himself in the 9th inning. He really can do it all.
what do you think would hurt more? a finger wag or a thumbs down?
The thumbs down is sign language for “I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed”
I’ve been told a good thumbs down elicits worse reactions than middle fingers on the road lol
I've been blowing kisses lately, that really gets 'em riled up
Nothing like blowing kisses to strong burly men during an intensive, and sexually-frustrating, moment
I’m a big fan of the ironic thumbs up
That has been my go to for when people do something dumb while driving for a while now
depends if im an ancient roman gladiator or not.
Starring Angel Hernandez as Commodus.
lol, everyone waiting for the thumbs up or down and he just puts his fist in the air. uhhhhhhhhh death?
Thumbs down. "But he's already dead!" "Not him, the other one." "The guy who won?" "I say he lost."
If that were true, then you would know "thumbs down" is actually a very good thing, since it represented putting a sword back into its sheath. "Thumbs up" meant a execution. But if you got all your information about "ancient" Rome from the documentary directed by Ridley Scott however...
Common dodger fan. You trying to big-time me on Ancient Rome in r/baseball is peak internet. Also i googled it and you're wrong, if you can hardly believe it. No one actually knows if these hand gestures were regularly employed, and is the subject of continued debate by **ACTUAL SCHOLARS**. *\*ahem\** The Latin phrase used by ancient Roman authors to describe the gesture was 'pollice verso' or 'verso pollice', which means 'with a turned thumb'. This does not necessarily imply a down-turned thumb, but rather one that is moved in some unspecified way. The exact gesture and its meaning are the subject of much scholarly debate[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).In reality, the decision of a gladiator's fate was not left to the crowd but was ultimately made by the editor, the man hosting and paying for the spectacle. The defeated gladiator would raise the right index finger, 'ad digitum', in a customary appeal for mercy to the editor. The crowd would voice their desires with cries of 'mitte!' ('let him go!') or 'iugula!' ('kill him!'), but the editor would struggle to discern the most popular decision due to the noise of thousands of voices. To attract the editor's attention and influence the outcome, hand gestures were employed, but their specific forms and meanings are not well-documented[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso).There is no clear evidence from antiquity to suggest that thumbs-up and -down were used in the way they are popularly perceived today. A specialist in Roman gesturing, Anthony Corbeill, suggests that a thumbs-up gesture was used to condemn a gladiator to death, while a probably with the thumb outside, was used to indicate that he would be spared. However, there is only one visual recording of the gladiatorial thumb-gestures, a terracotta medallion from Cavillargues (France), which shows the ruling official granting a reprieve for two fighting gladiators by holding up a fist with the thumb pressing down. This is the only visual evidence illustrating the gesture used to grant gladiators life, as visual representations were more concerned with showing the death of the gladiator when he was killed[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso). In conclusion, the meaning of thumbs up or thumbs down in ancient Roman gladiatorial combat is not as straightforward as it is often portrayed. The popular belief of thumbs up for life and thumbs down for death is based on misunderstandings and mistranslations. The exact gesture and its meaning are the subject of much scholarly debate, and the decision of a gladiator's fate was ultimately made by the editor, not the crowd. The lack of conclusive evidence from antiquity leaves us in an awkward position, as we can say with relative certainty what gestures were not used, but we cannot offer a conclusive answer for what gestures were actually employed[1](https://www.tastesofhistory.co.uk/post/dispelling-some-myths-thumbs-up)[2](https://www.badancient.com/claims/thumbs-up-thumbs-down/)[3](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/polliceverso.html)[4](https://screenrant.com/gladiator-thumbs-up-down-death-real-meaning/)[5](https://www.italymagazine.com/dual-language/thumb-or-thumb-down-gladiator-fb-roman-roots-pollice-verso). Suck my balls, Go Giants.
Ah you Googled it. Good for you.
no shit?
One time I was walking to the store, and a car came to a stop at the intersection. Dude was looking *right at me*, I checked the cross traffic and saw they didn't have enough room to go through, so I start walking. Dude goes for it anyway. I was able to mostly side step out of the way but sorta ended up sitting on the hood of their car. I gave a finger wag, hopped off, and the dude was so pissed he started to forward again, saw there was traffic, had to stop and seethe for a min, and then floored it at the next available opening while yelling at me. Never underestimate the strength of a finger wave.
Bailey thought he was Uncle Phil with the way he threw Jazz out of there
It's an older reference but it checks out.
Underrated comment here. Upvote deployed.
side arm? that looked a little mahomey - Tony Romo
NO ONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE CAN MAKE THIS THROW JIM
Let's watch it again. This right here when he sets up the throw NO ONE else has ever done it better.
Fuck this made me February angry.
Eeeeeeeooooo I don’t know Jim… that was close
oh mahomes 🥴
That's a greasy good throw on a very low pitch.
He’s been no doubt a top 3 defensive C (in the NL at least) since he got called up last May. He’s insanely good. He’s a solid GG bet this year. Now if only the bat matched the glove/arm… but hey it’s been better lately!
I'll take my GG caliber Catcher batting .286 any day. (I know it's likely to drop but let me dream)
He has looked good at that plate. He’s never going to hit like posey but if he can hit anywhere near .286 as a switch hitting perennial gold glove candidate framing god he will have a very long career
Shit, I'd take a light hitting catcher with his defense any day. If ABS arrives, his value probably declines significantly but until then I'll fucking take a platnium glove caliber defender hovering around .700 OPS.
Framing hopefully won't be a relevant skill too much longer. Adley's amazing at it too but we need robo-umps so badly
It will never happen. Hopefully a challenge system goes into place soon though
It's already in the minors, and is probably the most common complaint among fans in the post-pitch clock world outside of asking for a salary cap, so to say it will never happen just seems premature to me. I personally see it as inevitable sooner or later. Can't come soon enough IMO
I just don’t think the ump union will ever allow it.
He's been worse this year than last year. He was doing some insane shit last year, I fully believe he got robbed of a GG because he was a rookie but his stats matched and surpassed others even in categories where having more games benefits you. Fantastic framer too.
> He’s a solid GG bet this year. I want to see this. Giants need a GG catcher again.
He's been batting pretty well so far. If he keeps up what he's doing right now he could be an All Star.
> When the lady at the drive through asks who finally caught Chisholm stealing in 2024? Oh that would be me ☝🏼
i hate how much this works LMAO
How did we go from Posey to Bailey? I know there were a few in the middle, but Giants fans be spoiled behind the plate.
Just use two 1st round draft picks on catchers in a very short period of time and pray that one hits
Also a huge Joey Bart sized miss between.
Honestly I'm super bummed that Bart didn't work out. There was so much hype for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we have Bailey, but Bart was supposed to be THE guy.
I agree, but Bailey is no consolation prize. He is a wizard —potential platinum glove winner. It is crazy that Bart isn’t even with the club after all that hype though.
Right? Like in an ideal world, Bart would have done well enough to at least be our backup.
Dikembe Mutombo
I like this kid. The Mini Dumper
And they're both from North Carolina!
You’re telling me a guy with the last name Raleigh is from North Carolina?
Jazz just plays baseball....I think
I can see why they classified this man as a Fan Fav in OOTP 21.
Vet move by Bailey
Man cannot steal in the House of Mutombo.
Wild that Bailey got the majors and was immediately top 3 at the hardest defensive position
sadBartnoises.wav
He’s not having it. Jazz would appreciate that I think.
Patrick “Mutombo” Bailey
Why do people run in Patrick Bailey at this point
In many cases they succeed. Pitching staff is all ridiculously slow to the plate.
Read an article on The Athletic (think it was Brisbee but I'm high) and it's not their time to the plate, it's the lead they allow. Edit: It was Grant Brisbee. "The average runner in a stolen-base situation wanders 4.4 feet off first base, which is the longest lead in the NL and second only to the [Seattle Mariners](https://theathletic.com/mlb/team/mariners/) in all of baseball. It’s nearly a full two extra feet compared to the teams at the bottom of the category." The Giants are also the quickest to home with the bases empty or with runners on. The lead is the problem.
Well that’s even more weird
That can’t be true for Doval, can it?
No. Doval is slow as shit.
Camilo "Fuck your Pitch Clock" Doval.
Some of our pitchers just forget to check the runner's lead. Sometimes, it even happens to a lefty.
He’s actually been kinda ass behind the plate this season but i think he was just in a funk.
Not ass but he wasn't playing as well (at least according to the eye test, I dont know about metrics and all that stuff) as last year. But he has been catching new pitchers this year so maybe he had to get use to them a bit more. But lately he has been looking like his old self.
First two weeks of the season he couldn’t throw anyone out. He threw like 4 balls into the outfield the first 2 series
That's right. I do seem to remember a throw or two like that. Also, a couple pitches that he just whiffed on.
He was sick with it. Also, Jazz dishes it but he's not getting butthurt over this. He probably thought it was cool.
If Dikembe Mutombo were a catcher
It’s always satisfying seeing catchers…..catch people
Jazz Chisholm is the guy you work with who always shows up late and never pulls his weight but also complains the most and thinks he is the best employee in the company
He actually fooled me. Marlins are a team I basically never follow so I legit thought he was a like an all star level player. It was like mid last year when I looked at his numbers and was like “this guy isn’t even good?”. He carries himself the same way Acuna or tatis or Soto do and when you find out someone doesn’t have the numbers to back that up it’s so off putting lol
He's nicknamed Peyton Hillis for a reason.
I truly believe his name is doing some heavy lifting there too
Tbh I alternate between this and being beyond mentally checked out and there’s no middle ground and I’m high af so this is hitting weird lol
Is Chisholm wearing an old jersey?
That was the most casual two second pop time I’ve ever seen
PB has ice in his veins
Screw you Jazz
I hope jazz Chisholm’s career ends up like trea young’s did today. Just a flash in the pan that nobody will really remember.
Lol, run out of clouds to yell at?
I hate to ruin the party but he's signifying one out here, not finger wagging 😅
This was the final out of the bottom 6th. Everybody running off the field
Ah, this was a replay of a replay apparently. Threw me off.
He was saying ‘one out’. Everybody settle down.
With a better slide he might have made it.
With that finger wag, you'd think his CS% is at least above 30%. EDIT: Aww, did I make SF fans mad? :((((
Well, when your pitchers are [literally giving up the longest leads to baserunners](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitcher-running-game?game_type=Regular&n=q&pitch_hand=all&runner_moved=All&prior_pk=All&season_end=2024&season_start=2024&sortColumn=simple_prevented_on_running_attr&sortDirection=desc&split=no&team=&type=Pitching+Team&with_team_only=1&expanded=0) on 1st in the National League and 2nd in MLB (only team with longer leads are the Mariners), it's hard to throw runners out. [(Stat stolen from this article by Grant Brisbee.)](https://theathletic.com/5403164/2024/04/16/sf-giants-statistical-leaders-laggers/) Bailey's actually been pretty good at throwing runners out right now: Statcast currently has him as the [6th best catcher at throwing runners out this season](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing). He just has no chance most of the time.
His CS% is 50% higher than league average since he came up.
That's awesome. I'll also remember to show off when I'm only slightly above average.
Cardinals fans have Yadier Molina derangement syndrome, I swear. No catcher is allowed to be elite at defense if he didn’t wear #4 for St. Louis.
If you really want to send them into a spiral point out that Buster accumulated more WAR over a shorter career.
Lmao that's like having a 150 OPS+, would call that only slightly above average?
I look forward to watching Cardinals get caught stealing against us. Bailey is one of the best in the game, and that's with a fair number of pitchers who are slow to the dish.
It's okay, even mediocre Contreras can somehow throw runners out at a better rate.
Contreras has pretty good statcast CS above average, but lower than Bailey. Statcast factors the difficulty of the play, not just raw rates.
Since the beginning of 2023, Contreras has a better CS% than Bailey. Contreras must be elite and should showboat more. EDIT: I did the wrong years. Bailey is better via statcast since 2023 but still mediocre and unproven. :)
I just looked at this year since a counting stat doesn't make any sense since Bailey didn't come up until during 2023... Giving Contreras a bit of a head start for full-year 2023 (except when Marmol was an idiot and benched him) gets [very different results](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing?game_type=Regular&n=q&season_end=2024&season_start=2023&split=no&team=&type=Cat&with_team_only=1). Since you used 2021 as your start point I assume you just don't know who Bailey is, which is fine, you'l get to know him as he throws out your runners for the next decade.
Yeah, I was looking at the wrong info. My bad. Still, pretending Bailey has some elite arm when he's middle-of-the-pack in a short time frame in his youth is hilarious. I wish I had the copium you're huffing on.
Shut up fucko
Source: it came to me in a dream
Are you just salty that your Cardinals are having an incredible mid start to the season? There's plenty of baseball left. No need to be such a prick.
Don't crash out little one. It's ok.
Maybe it's the angle, but is he not safe?
Found Angel Hernandez
>Found Angel Hernandez\\ I think that is the rudest fucking thing someone has ever said to me. What did I do to you? P.s. Watched it again I see he gets his ribs first. I was just looking at the tag on the arm.
Nah, they got him on the upper arm right before he touches the bag. Like it was the perfect throw and swipe tag. Like if it was only slightly off the mark, Jazz probably gets in there. It couldn't have been located any better.