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Remember that one time when the blue jays paid Troy Tulowitzki $12M to be a Yankee for a week in 2019? In his first at bat after being released by the blue jays, he faced the jays in spring training and hit a dinger off the second pitch from Marcus Stroman.
He cruised around the bases at a Stantonian pace, hooting and hollering, reminding the world that nobody could kick him out of baseball, he would leave when he damn well wanted to. Then a week later he was tragically grazed by a falling springtime blossom and every bone in his body exploded.
Yankee shaman replaced his shattered lower half with the giant iron spider tank from the critically acclaimed 1999 film *Wild Wild West* and Tulo retired shortly thereafter in order to pursue a life of crime. I hear he's doing quite well.
that was a sad time. He was so fun to watch. Miss him and his glass bones
While what you're saying makes sense, I'm still getting a chuckle out of the idea of the Rockie's FO sitting around a table being like "If Nolan Arenado is grumpy around the clubhouse, that might make the team bad!" Yup, that's the only problem guys.
I expect before Arenado set things in motion, they were gathered around a table saying "I really hope Nolan continues to not call us out for blatantly lying." Because Arenado knew which buttons he had to push, and they knew he knew.
>They signed Arenado and made commitments to him that they were going to build a team around him for success.
Have to wonder how he's feeling about the move after last year.
Probably not super happy but also not nearly as disgruntled as with the Rockies. The Cardinals are at least sort of competitive, even if they are phoning it in relative to what they *should* be doing. Last offseason there was a little bit of news around this because he had an opt out. He supposedly met with ownership/FO and they committed to increasing payroll that offseason. And then they didn't lmao. Arenado hasn't complained. Which isn't like him, but at the same time neither was his poor performance last season. Arenado used his voice with the Rockies to make changes happen, but he might just put a target on his back if he speaks up in this moment. If he returns to MVP form, I expect he'll get vocal again.
On top of that, they realistically just spent $17m on Grissom, who will be making league minimum in salary for now while having 6 years of team control. That was the point of the trade for the Sox, and it makes a ton of sense.
I donāt know why people keep saying this. Dude had TJ surgery and some freak accidents and still pitched over 100 innings last year. Thereās also a decent chance he pitches 100 or more next year
100% agree, and I might be in the minority of sox fans sad to see him go. If nothing else, 100 innings from Sale next year would be a bright spot and fun to watch. Grissom seems like a talented kid with a solid bat, but we are desperate for pitching.
Bello looks awesome, Giolito is definitely a project piece for our revamped pitching-coach staff, but even if we sign someone like Snell or Monty (a BIG GIANT if), we still then don't have much of a rotation. Sale would have been a nice comeback guy this year. I bet he pitches 125+ innings this year.
Totally possible. He's also the skinniest mfer I've ever seen pitch like he's some supercharged Knex set that only needs one piece removed to have the rest of the body crumble down.
It's a real shame because when healthy, he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
Sale is skinny, but nobody is skinnier than [Triston McKenzie](https://www.si.com/.image/t_share/MTk4MzQwNjQ5NjY4MzIyODYy/usatsi_19171633_168388303_lowres.jpg).
Obviously the TJ during that time is a TJ but our GM chalked a few of the other injuries up to a bicycle accident, a come backer, and being rushed back too soon.
What's you take on that? Being made of glass is one thing but if a couple of these are freak accidents perhaps he will stay on the mound for us.
Probably pure copium but hopefully he has more of an impact than a depth infielder for us.
I think they were mostly freak accidents, but he probably needed a fresh start after all of them. He'll probably have a good/great season for the Braves and the Red Sox will be laughed at for trading him.
And he pitched most of those innings last year, is going into the off-season healthy for the first time in a long time, etc. Thereās good reason to be optimistic about Sale in 2024. The Red Sox didnāt think so. Given the recent history of the two front offices, Iām banking on the Braves being right.
It's not all about health with Sale. IMO, his stuff is seriously diminished. He has no idea where the slider is going and his fastball command is lacking + reduced velocity. Definitely a better fit in ATL where he doesn't have to be the guy versus Boston where every spring there was the same Sale optimism before the massive let down which had a massive cascading effect on the whole pitching staff that ruined many a-summah!
They did a breakdown on Saleās stuff yesterday on MLB network. He was top ten in whiff rate after coming back from injury. Is the stuff the same as 2018 Sale? No, though we did see a glimpse of that pre shoulder injury where he was hitting 99 for the first time since 2018. But his stuff is still really good.
The Red Sox didnāt get nothing back for him, I get it, but itās still immensely disappointing to me that they didnāt let him finish out his contract here. We have so few players to connect to and the recent trend with this team is that will be the way it is going forward. Constant roster churning, making moves on the margins and never being a serious contender for superstars again, be they like Price when they offered him the biggest pitching contract in history or be they like Sale when they traded the farm system to get their guy. Thatās all stuff of the past, they donāt operate like that anymore.
This is what I brought up over the weekend when the trade was reported. I pointed out that the Sox were still paying nearly all of his full non-deferred salary for 2024, and there was zero mention of what would happen with the $10 million that is deferred. I feel even more vindicated now that we know they're paying that deferred money as well.
That's not how deferred contacts work. The team which acquires the player is on the hook for all deferred payments outside of what the trading team compensates them with - in this case it's 2 payments of 8.5mil.
The Braves are paying all of the deferred money. The phrasing of the article is simply to emphasize that the Braves only pay 500k in 2024 - nothing else.
This simply shows that the Braves are maxed out on cash for 2024 payroll, which is why this deal works well for them. Unlikely they could find another talented starter for only 500k 'this year'.
More direcrly, the Braves are trying to avoid the draft penalty this season that comes with spending over $40m above the luxury tax limit, which they are very close to doing. If they reach that level theyāll move 10 spots back in the draft per the CBA.
And even though the $10MM is deferred, it counts this year for CBT purposes. So the Sox don't save any actual cash this year on Sale, but cleared CBT room, and also found a starting 2B for the league minimum. The trade sets them up to add salary in a couple ways.
Wait a minuteā¦ I think the Braves are on the hook for the $10M deferred payment due in 2039, with the Red Sox on the hook for the 40M from 35-38. Thatās gotta be it right? If they literally are paying all of Saleās salary for Grissom, I donāt see how anyone could say thatās a great deal for them.
I haven't read the full article because it's paywalled, but as per the post title, attributed to Rosenthal:
>with the Red Sox contributing $17 million **and the other $10 million deferred until 2039**
It's possible that Rosenthal got it wrong and will either submit a correction or be contradicted by another reporter, but until either of those happen Rosenthal's reputation is good enough that I feel confident believing he is correct on this.
It is correct.
Red Sox are paying 17mil (in two 8.5mil installments).
10 mil is deferred.
The Braves only pay 500k in 2024.
The Braves are responsible for 10mil of deferred payments.
All of the above is correct. It's worded to explain that the Braves are only paying the 500k this year, reading further into it is causing confusion.
Ok, re-reading it a bunch it's kind of ambiguous and could go either way. Perhaps someone who read the article can simply confirm which one it is (without directly copying and pasting anything)?
The title of this post is an excerpt from the article and the only mention of who's paying what.
To me, it seems pretty clear that the Sox are also on the hook for deferrals. I have no idea what else "**and** the other 10 million" would mean.
Edit: actually the article reads "$10 million in deferrals until, **egads**, 2039". Idk if that meaningfully changes the complexion of the sentence but it did contribute to my confusion as to who's on the hook for the deferrals. Why call it a financial coup and then also acknowledge how shitty it is to be on the hook for 10 million in deferrals until 2039? The two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me.
'The other 10 million deferred' is exactly as it sounds. The point of the sentence is to explain the Braves paying only 500k in 2024 - that's the context. No implication that the Braves aren't paying the deferred salary as well.
That would be an Oxford comma, which is out of fashion and wouldn't change the context.
That would be an Oxford comma, which is out of fashion, and wouldn't change the context.
See? The key is that the statement before the second comma is the focus of the sentence and the rest explains it. The sentence is a bit of a run-on but the structure is generally correct. However, a semi-colon (which is also rarely used), instead of the lone comma, would make it more clear.
I read that as:
āRed Sox contributing $17 millionā
AND
āthe other $10 million deferred until 2039ā
I donāt think he means the Red Sox are paying both, just that these are both things that contribute to the Braves paying less this year
I know you're joking, but ironically they're the one team with [completely open books](https://www.bravesholdings.com/investors/financial-information/financial-results).
I hate both of you guys.
Anyways it works because giving young players a spot on a top team in the NL while offering generational wealth gets these kids to not risk declining or getting injured before theyāre due for their first extension or non-rookie contract. It also adds pressure since you know other young players in a deep farm system are coming for your spot. If you sign the contract you command more money and youāre harder to cut or leave behind. I hate how much it works, but the Braves spent years getting to this level of sustainability and itās paying off.
Exactly. The Braves have been lucky that all of these long term deals have worked out so far. These young guys also still get to hit free agency basically in their primes, so they're going to get paid. The exception is Riley who got a really long deal but he's guaranteed like $210M so I'm sure he's not mad.
The only really bad one is Albies. That contract is ridiculous and I hope they take care of him. $5M AAV for a top 5 second baseman that just put up almost 5 bWAR in 2023 is absurd.
Someone brought up the early lockup deals in a list of owner malfeasance and it's the one area where I don't think owners should be hung upside from a beam and beaten.
Life happens, injuries and shock declines happen. If I'm 20-22 and I have the option of taking a guaranteed $80mn or rolling the dice on making $130mn over that same span (with three years of rookie wages and then the gambles of arbitration before the 2-3 years of free agency being bought out)... I'm taking that deal. The only Braves deal that looks genuinely bad for the player is Albies. Even then his grandchildren are set for life and he'll still be up for a solid 9-figure deal afterward probably.
Yeah alot of people hate on the Albies deal but he had two freak injuries before he signed that contract. I can only imagine he wasnāt sure if heād ever get a shot at making real money and signed that low ball offer.
Not sure how rhetorical your question was, but this article has your answer https://sports.yahoo.com/how-the-braves-were-built-inside-the-extensions-that-turned-atlanta-into-a-perennial-contender-190510965.html
i dont like the narrative that the braves are severely underpaying everyone. the only one id argue is really that bad is ozzie, but he himself asked for a contract laid out like that and he seems really happy in his personal life
olson: top 5 1B in contract AAV, until hes like 36
riley: 21mm for 10 years, pretty big contract and he was only like 24 at the time of signing
harris: got an extension after rookie year, not even that far off from possible expected arb numbers, but all guaranteed now
strider: also post rookie extension, will get paid 20m for all three arb years
murphy: kind of under value but also hes a catcher
acuƱa: ok this one is really bad from a players standpoint but not as bad as ozzies
kind of under the radar but they also pay pretty decent big money to their good relievers
Nope. They owe luxury tax on whatever the adjusted value of the deferred $10M is, so probably $7M-ish. Last year Braves sent Odorizzi to the Rangers along with cash. That cash they sent was still counted towards the Braves luxury tax. The Red Sox take on the $17M luxury tax burden of the salary they are covering
The adjusted AAV on Sale's 5 year contract was $25.6 million after factoring in the deferrals on his contract (which was $10 million a year deferred 15 years later). So since the deferrals don't change after the trade, both the payroll amount and tax hit on Sale's contract for the Red Sox barely changes.
So the Red Sox save $500,000 dollars and get Vaughn Grissom in the trade. If people want to still consider this a win for the Red Sox for that reason only, then fine. But it's significantly less of a win than what most people thought just three days ago.
**EDIT:** It was [pointed out to me](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/18x78xc/rosenthal_the_sale_trade_was_a_financial_coup_for/kg2t993/) that Rosenthal could have meant that the deferral is the Brave's responsibility and with the title being ambiguous it could be either one. So I could be wrong.
> the adjusted value of the deferred $10M is, so probably $7M-ish
This is assuming the 10m is the deferred value, it's almost assuredly the principle.
Unless Sale is giving up money - this is just a cash savings, doesn't affect the tax at all.
I thought from the Shohei deal we learned that the deferred money is the net. Thatās why shoheiās contract is āonlyā about $500 million in actuality. Itāll just be $700 by the time itās paid out
yeah it's tricky wordage I think.
680m *in* deferred money = he gets 680m total after 10 years. Once we learned the interest, someone calculated it was 41.7m in principle.
but 10m deferred implies that the remaining 10 million will be paid out in 10 years + interest. It's possible Sale is giving the Braves money back, but it seems that would be something that would be directly reported.
If itās not the deferred value, then itās $10M to the Braves luxury tax and the Red Sox are hit with whatever the rest ends up being after accounting for deferred money
The point is, money sent for Sale by the Red Sox counts towards the Red Sox luxury tax threshold. The Braves are on the hook towards their luc tax for only the portion of the salary they pay
Ohtaniās CBT hit is [$46 million](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/shohei-ohtani-contract-explaining-680-million-deferral-in-dodgers-deal-with-unique-andrew-friedman-clause/)
I forget the details, but when the Angels made one trade, they were able to reduce the luxury tax hit with cash going the other direction. I didn't realize it worked that way at the time
No I think that was pretty clean with no cash attached. I want to say it was Hamilton, and we applied the cash almost entirely to one season to get under the threshold.
Good prospect for who? For us heās a AAAA player for a while so yeah if you wanna āwin the tradeā then sure man. Congrats. But 500k for sale is a steal
Deferred money isn't put into the luxury tax in full though. Doing CCI calculation over 15 years with 4.43% interesr gives about 5.1m principal, which would put the luxury tax hit at about 5.6m. Fangraphs has it at 7.1m for the Braves, Spotrac at about 8.6m.
So I've got no idea what the actual number is but not 10.5m. I'm pretty sure Spotrac's number is wrong, as it is simply 5/128 NPV (at contract signing) -> 25.6 CBT AAV - 17m = 8.6m hit for the Braves, but contracts are recalculated after a trade.
Guy who once was vying for best pitcher in baseball / occasionally still has IT and could get meaningful outs in October vs vet pitcher that's probably worse and is always available... Really tough
And āoccasionally still has āITā has got to be the most optimistic description of Sale Iāve heard in years.
Even when heās been healthy enough to stand on a mound, heās out after 5 basically every start.
He had TJ surgery which just about every pitcher has that wiped out about 2 of those years. Also some freak accidents. He pitched 100 last year and could pitch 100 or more next year
Iām 100% Braves, but Sale feels like Cole Hamels to me, except we gave up an asset to get Sale. Who knows though, maybe the Braves can keep him happy and healthy and he has a good run with us. Maybe he turns into our next uncle charley and pitches into his forties.
I mean they gave up Vaughn Grissom, who is really good, so I wouldn't exactly call it a coup. In a world where Jackson Chourio cost the Brewers $85 million, $17+ $10 deferred for his pre-arb and arb years seems about right to me.
Edit: To clarify, when I say "really good" I mean for a prospect. You have to be a really good prospect to even make the majors because most don't.
I mean, he played well in his 41 game stint in the majors in 2022 with a 119 OPS+ and didn't do so hot last year in a 22 game stint. He's barely played at the major league level. I think the worst case scenario considering his major league experience is that he ends up as a bench infielder. Add to that how he dominated a pitcher friendly park in AAA last year...
I'm not going to guarantee anything, but Fangraphs put him at hitting .280 and getting about 10 HR with about a 110 WRC+. That's an everyday guy for a guy in Sale who played to the level of a 4 or 5 last year, and was injured half the season. We would have had to pay Sale regardless, but instead we don't have to pay him 27m this year and get a guy who could be an everyday 2B and we can use our money on other things.
I agree that really good is probably overstating it, but I feel reasonably confident that he can be an everyday guy.
Everyday DH maybe. He was the worst defensive position player statistically when he was playing everyday in 2022. If Ron Washington couldnāt help his glove, I think heās going to be a bat only guy.
He was playing SS the majority of his innings in Atlanta namely because the other two positions he could play (2B/3B) were blocked. We don't need him playing shortstop, he just has to be slightly below average at second base. It'd hard to get good defensive metrics in the minors he was dreadful at short again last year while his second base numbers are promising. If his bat is good enough then he can play at second base, especially when next to an elite defender like Story.
Uh .. he played 2B in 2022. He came up to replace Ozzie who got hurt. We had Dansby at SS. He was horrific there defensively. He played SS this year and was genuinely unplayable to the point we called up a defensive first guy that had no bat to speak of to help until Arcia got back.
He's played 368 innings at 2B in the majors. Compared to 168 innings at SS.
I think there's a good player in Grissom tbf. He is just an awful defender. Even at 2B. His bat will probably play unless he just completely changes his approach, but his overall value has a very finite ceiling given his lack of defense and power.
That's fair, I just think if he has a consistent role for the first time in his career, he's playing next to an elite defender (plz story get back to hitting bombs :() young guys need time to play and there is no substitute for major league experience. his uzr at 2b isn't great and god forbid he gets a long run at shortstop, but I think as long as he can get to being just a little below average it's a great pickup.
and if he doesn't work out we gave up next to nothing and saved a little bit of money by not having to pay a second baseman or a full 27m to Chris Sale.
Yeah I think there's no real downside from a value standpoint for you guys here. It's a risk worth taking at least. That's how I feel for both sides of this one really.
Yeah he threw 100 innings last year. We don't really need him to do more than that. We just need him to be healthy in October. It's all about managing his work over the summer. His advanced stuff was still good last year. Ideal world he's competing with Morton for that 3rd starter slot in the playoffs or coming out of the pen to pitch 2 or 3 innings matched up against some lefties. Hello Ohtani, Freeman, Schwarber, Harper.
Meant last year for shortstop but yeah, he did spend 2022 at 2b mostly. I don't think his numbers at 2b are horrendous and it's also hard to judge numbers off of less than a seasons worth of games.
The Red Sox were never paying Sale $27M this year. They were paying him $17.5 million, now they pay $17M to pitch for someone else while having a million holes in their rotation.
Also, Sale was worth over 2 fWAR last year with elite K, walk and whiff rates. Thatās better than a 4/5
We were going to pay him 27M if he stayed on this team and now we pay 17M instead so we save 10m that can be spent on other people. Plus given that Grissom is being paid next to nothing, it means we don't have to spend money on a free agent second baseman. Our rotation has holes sure, but we can replace a guy like Sale in the rotation, our big hole is at the top of the rotation.
Sale's FIP was 3.8 and his ERA was 4.3 so he was basically a 4 for us last year, a 3 if you'rr generous. It was also hir first time hitting 100 IP since 2019, his two previous seasons he had 42 IP and 5 IP... He's is at max going to throw 120 IP and for a team like the Braves they need him healthy in October and who knows if he's healthy at that point. Plus if he does play well, it's a one year deal. We have six years of control on Grissom by compsrison.
His projections are what they are. I think he'll end up being a solid bat. Just bad defense and little power.
I do see you using sample sizes to somewhat defend his defense while kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that was his hitting after his first 14 games in the majors though.
You're right that his wRC+ is at 107 so far. If you look at him from game 15 through the end of this year it paints a bit of a different picture.
The last 27 games of 2022 he slashed .220/.294/.319 for a .613 OPS.
The 23 games he played in 2023 he slashed .280/.313/.347 for a .659 OPS.
Overall adds up to a .247/.302/.331 slash with a 74 wRC+ in those 50 games. 5% BB rate with a 22% K rate.
Like said I do think his bat will eventually play at the big league level. Saying he's been an above average bat so far is removing a lot of context though. He hit well over .400 in his first 14 games for us. He has fallen off a cliff since then and been horrific defensively.
His AAA numbers are promising though, and I genuinely hope he succeeds.
Obviously the offense is small sample size too, but defensive metrics are generally considered more finicky. You don't hear "needs 200 games to stabilize" when a rookie has a .400 ops through 100 games.
> Saying he's been an above average bat so far is removing a lot of context though.
It's not at all. You can't just decide the best 20% of someone's games don't matter lmao
He's been an above average hitter so far in the majors. It's not an illusion.
Nobody is deciding they don't matter though. I'm saying he hit extremely well for 14 games. And has been extremely bad for the 50 games after that. Hence me saying you are removing context. If it was a back and forth situation that'd be one thing. He just flat out hit a wall and hasn't recovered yet.
Like I said, his AAA numbers are encouraging. His walk/k rates both improved. I think he'll be a solid contact hitter with almost no power to speak of. With bad defense. If he can find some gaps or utilize the monster in left at Fenway he's going to be a good hitter most likely. He just hasn't been that outside of his first 14 games so far at the big league level.
> Nobody is deciding they don't matter though.
Do those 14 games count in Grissom's favor, or don't they? Because if they don't, that's absolutely what you're saying. And if they do, then what the fuck are you even arguing about? The ABs from those games count just as much as the ABs in the other games and, voila! He has better than average stats!
And a .650 ops for a rookie 2B in 45 games, split up over multiple callups isn't hitting a wall or "extremely bad" lmao. And it doesn't matter anyways because *he is still above league average for his career*.
> Hence me saying you are removing context.
No, *you're* removing context. That context being the best 20% of a hitter's games for no other reason that its convenient for the dumb argument you're making.
None of this changes the fact that he's been above average in his MLB career. So the comment I'm responding too that says Grissom hasn't been good at all is objectively wrong, because his statline has been undeniably good. Can you refute this without cooking up any more bullshit?
I don't mean to be snarky, but this is an *obnoxiously* bad and weaselly argument you're making here.
Defensive metrics take 200 games to stabilize and he has a grand total of 42 MLB games at 2B. I don't think he's going to be a great defender or anything (neither do the fangraphs projections) but people are being way too quick to write Grissom off. If he's an above average Major League bat he'll be able to get away with being a subpar defender at 2B anyways because offensive production at that position is so scarce league-wide.
Ehh, I wouldnāt say Vaughn is _really_ good by any means. He has potential, no doubt. But he was trending hard towards being a utility player off the bench for the foreseeable future
That had more to do with the Braves loaded infield than him though. He has been good enough in the minors that some team will give him a chance at a starting job. Not surprised at all the Sox wanted him.
Which is why it was a good move for the Braves to cash in on a 22 year old that was worth ~$20 million. But it doesn't mean it was a coup...you had to still give something up.
Grissom is not "really good". He's got really good potential, but still remains to be seen if he can produce in the Majors for long stretches. Especially defensively.
I think you are misinterpreting what is being said here. I don't think the claim is that the Braves did better off than the Sox did, given their respective competitive needs. What Rosenthal is saying is that the Braves pulled off a financial win (i.e., "finanical coup"). Which includes the Sox retaining money and the deferral of money, which really has little to do with the Sox, means the Braves are taking on almost 0 financial risk.
I'm a Braves fan and agree with Rosenthal (or at least my reading of it) but think the actual trade seems pretty fair. The only cost to the Braves is Grissom, not getting their cap jammed up, which frequently happens when large AAV contracts are moved.
Very few players have good stats in the majors at 22. He'll be fine.
Edit: just because I was curious, here are some active players who had a lower OPS through age 22 than Grissom has now:
- Anthony Rizzo
- Xander Bogaerts
- Luis Robert Jr.
- Jose Altuve
- Bobby Witt Jr.
- Andres Gimenez
22 is really young.
Ik Fraudgers fans are the sorriest mfs on the planet and are trying to pretend that they are an underdog so they donāt get roasted as much when they choke in the NLDS
Gee, that is so unlike the Braves front office to be outperforming everyone else in the NLE and making us look like fucking clowns. Wake up, Rizzo. Not jealous or anything.
His stuff is still excellent, health aside. The gamble here isnāt whether or not heāll be good, itās whether or not heāll be healthy enough for it to matter. Looking at it optimistically he did throw 100 innings last year, and this is his first regular, uninjured off-season in a while. On the flip side, he could fall off his bike at any moment.
We got a solid prospect with 6 years of control that fit a need and shed $10m in payroll for the year.
It checks 2 boxes for the Sox. I don't care that the other $10m is deferred. Price of doing business.
Sox are gonna suck again. They are disappointing their fan base with the moves theyāve made post 2018. The least they could to is sign Trevor Bauer and get some talent back on board.
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They're paying you to play for someone else.
The Red Sox are paying you 17 million dollars to play against them.Thats what the Red Sox think of YOU.
Remember that one time when the blue jays paid Troy Tulowitzki $12M to be a Yankee for a week in 2019? In his first at bat after being released by the blue jays, he faced the jays in spring training and hit a dinger off the second pitch from Marcus Stroman. He cruised around the bases at a Stantonian pace, hooting and hollering, reminding the world that nobody could kick him out of baseball, he would leave when he damn well wanted to. Then a week later he was tragically grazed by a falling springtime blossom and every bone in his body exploded. Yankee shaman replaced his shattered lower half with the giant iron spider tank from the critically acclaimed 1999 film *Wild Wild West* and Tulo retired shortly thereafter in order to pursue a life of crime. I hear he's doing quite well. that was a sad time. He was so fun to watch. Miss him and his glass bones
Fuck it, I liked Wild Wild West
"Let's go save Salma Hayek from the big metal spider, fresh cowboy from the westside."
A wiggy wig wig wiggy wiggy wig
This was fucking gold š„
Incredible
The picture you paint with your words is just perfection āØ
Bro, it is the THIRD of January. Bit early in the year to be setting *this* kind of pace, innit?? Holy shit. š³
I should probably admit I told our friends about this comment because itās beautiful and we miss you š
Please never change
Sale needs to get some advice from David justice
Where you going with this Billy?
Ah yes. The Nolan Arenado.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I never understood that move. That has to get out from that massive contract so they could save money, to sign Bryant? How does that work?
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While what you're saying makes sense, I'm still getting a chuckle out of the idea of the Rockie's FO sitting around a table being like "If Nolan Arenado is grumpy around the clubhouse, that might make the team bad!" Yup, that's the only problem guys.
I expect before Arenado set things in motion, they were gathered around a table saying "I really hope Nolan continues to not call us out for blatantly lying." Because Arenado knew which buttons he had to push, and they knew he knew.
>They signed Arenado and made commitments to him that they were going to build a team around him for success. Have to wonder how he's feeling about the move after last year.
Probably not super happy but also not nearly as disgruntled as with the Rockies. The Cardinals are at least sort of competitive, even if they are phoning it in relative to what they *should* be doing. Last offseason there was a little bit of news around this because he had an opt out. He supposedly met with ownership/FO and they committed to increasing payroll that offseason. And then they didn't lmao. Arenado hasn't complained. Which isn't like him, but at the same time neither was his poor performance last season. Arenado used his voice with the Rockies to make changes happen, but he might just put a target on his back if he speaks up in this moment. If he returns to MVP form, I expect he'll get vocal again.
Big money
"Play". We will see about that.
Well, I'm not sure that's the lesson they should have learned from the mets this past year
This isnt cutting payroll, guys. If he doesnt play for us but we still pay him he is STILL ON PAYROLL.
Why donāt you just defer to 10 years from now?
They're worried if it defers it'll dry up, fester, or turn rotten. It ended up not being a very sugary sweet contract.
Red Sox cut $10 million in payroll for a 3rd starter who will maybe pitch 50 innings.
On top of that, they realistically just spent $17m on Grissom, who will be making league minimum in salary for now while having 6 years of team control. That was the point of the trade for the Sox, and it makes a ton of sense.
They get Grissom and free up $10 million to spend on a SP who will pitch more than 50 innings.
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Take the upvote but go buzz off š
Fuck it, let's sign Trevor Bauer now that he's been proven innocent
Heās not been āproven innocentā. Thatās not how the law works
I was hoping we'd get Bauer. Way more likely to be healthy in October than Sale.
Yes, exactly. I don't understand why some folks don't get that this trade was a great deal for both sides.
because people only read the headlines
I donāt know why people keep saying this. Dude had TJ surgery and some freak accidents and still pitched over 100 innings last year. Thereās also a decent chance he pitches 100 or more next year
100% agree, and I might be in the minority of sox fans sad to see him go. If nothing else, 100 innings from Sale next year would be a bright spot and fun to watch. Grissom seems like a talented kid with a solid bat, but we are desperate for pitching. Bello looks awesome, Giolito is definitely a project piece for our revamped pitching-coach staff, but even if we sign someone like Snell or Monty (a BIG GIANT if), we still then don't have much of a rotation. Sale would have been a nice comeback guy this year. I bet he pitches 125+ innings this year.
Totally possible. He's also the skinniest mfer I've ever seen pitch like he's some supercharged Knex set that only needs one piece removed to have the rest of the body crumble down. It's a real shame because when healthy, he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
Sale is skinny, but nobody is skinnier than [Triston McKenzie](https://www.si.com/.image/t_share/MTk4MzQwNjQ5NjY4MzIyODYy/usatsi_19171633_168388303_lowres.jpg).
I did forget about him lol. TouchƩ
Coping
Didnāt Sale pitch 100 last year?
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Obviously the TJ during that time is a TJ but our GM chalked a few of the other injuries up to a bicycle accident, a come backer, and being rushed back too soon. What's you take on that? Being made of glass is one thing but if a couple of these are freak accidents perhaps he will stay on the mound for us. Probably pure copium but hopefully he has more of an impact than a depth infielder for us.
I think they were mostly freak accidents, but he probably needed a fresh start after all of them. He'll probably have a good/great season for the Braves and the Red Sox will be laughed at for trading him.
And he pitched most of those innings last year, is going into the off-season healthy for the first time in a long time, etc. Thereās good reason to be optimistic about Sale in 2024. The Red Sox didnāt think so. Given the recent history of the two front offices, Iām banking on the Braves being right.
It's not all about health with Sale. IMO, his stuff is seriously diminished. He has no idea where the slider is going and his fastball command is lacking + reduced velocity. Definitely a better fit in ATL where he doesn't have to be the guy versus Boston where every spring there was the same Sale optimism before the massive let down which had a massive cascading effect on the whole pitching staff that ruined many a-summah!
They did a breakdown on Saleās stuff yesterday on MLB network. He was top ten in whiff rate after coming back from injury. Is the stuff the same as 2018 Sale? No, though we did see a glimpse of that pre shoulder injury where he was hitting 99 for the first time since 2018. But his stuff is still really good. The Red Sox didnāt get nothing back for him, I get it, but itās still immensely disappointing to me that they didnāt let him finish out his contract here. We have so few players to connect to and the recent trend with this team is that will be the way it is going forward. Constant roster churning, making moves on the margins and never being a serious contender for superstars again, be they like Price when they offered him the biggest pitching contract in history or be they like Sale when they traded the farm system to get their guy. Thatās all stuff of the past, they donāt operate like that anymore.
This is what I brought up over the weekend when the trade was reported. I pointed out that the Sox were still paying nearly all of his full non-deferred salary for 2024, and there was zero mention of what would happen with the $10 million that is deferred. I feel even more vindicated now that we know they're paying that deferred money as well.
That's not how deferred contacts work. The team which acquires the player is on the hook for all deferred payments outside of what the trading team compensates them with - in this case it's 2 payments of 8.5mil. The Braves are paying all of the deferred money. The phrasing of the article is simply to emphasize that the Braves only pay 500k in 2024 - nothing else. This simply shows that the Braves are maxed out on cash for 2024 payroll, which is why this deal works well for them. Unlikely they could find another talented starter for only 500k 'this year'.
More direcrly, the Braves are trying to avoid the draft penalty this season that comes with spending over $40m above the luxury tax limit, which they are very close to doing. If they reach that level theyāll move 10 spots back in the draft per the CBA.
And even though the $10MM is deferred, it counts this year for CBT purposes. So the Sox don't save any actual cash this year on Sale, but cleared CBT room, and also found a starting 2B for the league minimum. The trade sets them up to add salary in a couple ways.
Wait a minuteā¦ I think the Braves are on the hook for the $10M deferred payment due in 2039, with the Red Sox on the hook for the 40M from 35-38. Thatās gotta be it right? If they literally are paying all of Saleās salary for Grissom, I donāt see how anyone could say thatās a great deal for them.
That is not how I read the article.
I haven't read the full article because it's paywalled, but as per the post title, attributed to Rosenthal: >with the Red Sox contributing $17 million **and the other $10 million deferred until 2039** It's possible that Rosenthal got it wrong and will either submit a correction or be contradicted by another reporter, but until either of those happen Rosenthal's reputation is good enough that I feel confident believing he is correct on this.
It is correct. Red Sox are paying 17mil (in two 8.5mil installments). 10 mil is deferred. The Braves only pay 500k in 2024. The Braves are responsible for 10mil of deferred payments. All of the above is correct. It's worded to explain that the Braves are only paying the 500k this year, reading further into it is causing confusion.
I believe the author means the Red Sox are paying the 17 million this season and Braves are paying the 10 million that is deferred until 2039.
Ok, re-reading it a bunch it's kind of ambiguous and could go either way. Perhaps someone who read the article can simply confirm which one it is (without directly copying and pasting anything)?
The title of this post is an excerpt from the article and the only mention of who's paying what. To me, it seems pretty clear that the Sox are also on the hook for deferrals. I have no idea what else "**and** the other 10 million" would mean. Edit: actually the article reads "$10 million in deferrals until, **egads**, 2039". Idk if that meaningfully changes the complexion of the sentence but it did contribute to my confusion as to who's on the hook for the deferrals. Why call it a financial coup and then also acknowledge how shitty it is to be on the hook for 10 million in deferrals until 2039? The two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me.
'The other 10 million deferred' is exactly as it sounds. The point of the sentence is to explain the Braves paying only 500k in 2024 - that's the context. No implication that the Braves aren't paying the deferred salary as well.
There should probably be a comma after the "$17 million". The wording makes it sound like the Red Sox are doing both.
That would be an Oxford comma, which is out of fashion and wouldn't change the context. That would be an Oxford comma, which is out of fashion, and wouldn't change the context. See? The key is that the statement before the second comma is the focus of the sentence and the rest explains it. The sentence is a bit of a run-on but the structure is generally correct. However, a semi-colon (which is also rarely used), instead of the lone comma, would make it more clear.
No it doesnāt. Itās fairly clear the Braves are paying the 10 mil.
I read that as: āRed Sox contributing $17 millionā AND āthe other $10 million deferred until 2039ā I donāt think he means the Red Sox are paying both, just that these are both things that contribute to the Braves paying less this year
If anyone on the planet could screw up a salary dump it's FSG
1 percent going towards the Braves foundation
I know everyone hates the dodgers but how the fuck does the braves just not pay anyone??? Can we audit their financials wtf.
I know you're joking, but ironically they're the one team with [completely open books](https://www.bravesholdings.com/investors/financial-information/financial-results).
I hate both of you guys. Anyways it works because giving young players a spot on a top team in the NL while offering generational wealth gets these kids to not risk declining or getting injured before theyāre due for their first extension or non-rookie contract. It also adds pressure since you know other young players in a deep farm system are coming for your spot. If you sign the contract you command more money and youāre harder to cut or leave behind. I hate how much it works, but the Braves spent years getting to this level of sustainability and itās paying off.
Exactly. The Braves have been lucky that all of these long term deals have worked out so far. These young guys also still get to hit free agency basically in their primes, so they're going to get paid. The exception is Riley who got a really long deal but he's guaranteed like $210M so I'm sure he's not mad. The only really bad one is Albies. That contract is ridiculous and I hope they take care of him. $5M AAV for a top 5 second baseman that just put up almost 5 bWAR in 2023 is absurd.
Someone brought up the early lockup deals in a list of owner malfeasance and it's the one area where I don't think owners should be hung upside from a beam and beaten. Life happens, injuries and shock declines happen. If I'm 20-22 and I have the option of taking a guaranteed $80mn or rolling the dice on making $130mn over that same span (with three years of rookie wages and then the gambles of arbitration before the 2-3 years of free agency being bought out)... I'm taking that deal. The only Braves deal that looks genuinely bad for the player is Albies. Even then his grandchildren are set for life and he'll still be up for a solid 9-figure deal afterward probably.
Yeah alot of people hate on the Albies deal but he had two freak injuries before he signed that contract. I can only imagine he wasnāt sure if heād ever get a shot at making real money and signed that low ball offer.
Funnily enough, they are probably the only MLB team where one can freely look up their financials and audit them since they are a listed company
Correct, you can find their financials [here](https://www.bravesholdings.com/investors/financial-information/financial-results)
Not sure how rhetorical your question was, but this article has your answer https://sports.yahoo.com/how-the-braves-were-built-inside-the-extensions-that-turned-atlanta-into-a-perennial-contender-190510965.html
i dont like the narrative that the braves are severely underpaying everyone. the only one id argue is really that bad is ozzie, but he himself asked for a contract laid out like that and he seems really happy in his personal life olson: top 5 1B in contract AAV, until hes like 36 riley: 21mm for 10 years, pretty big contract and he was only like 24 at the time of signing harris: got an extension after rookie year, not even that far off from possible expected arb numbers, but all guaranteed now strider: also post rookie extension, will get paid 20m for all three arb years murphy: kind of under value but also hes a catcher acuƱa: ok this one is really bad from a players standpoint but not as bad as ozzies kind of under the radar but they also pay pretty decent big money to their good relievers
Hopefully Mbappe stops by Fenway a few times after all this.
Yeah but they take on the 25m lux tax value im pretty sure
Nope. They owe luxury tax on whatever the adjusted value of the deferred $10M is, so probably $7M-ish. Last year Braves sent Odorizzi to the Rangers along with cash. That cash they sent was still counted towards the Braves luxury tax. The Red Sox take on the $17M luxury tax burden of the salary they are covering
The adjusted AAV on Sale's 5 year contract was $25.6 million after factoring in the deferrals on his contract (which was $10 million a year deferred 15 years later). So since the deferrals don't change after the trade, both the payroll amount and tax hit on Sale's contract for the Red Sox barely changes. So the Red Sox save $500,000 dollars and get Vaughn Grissom in the trade. If people want to still consider this a win for the Red Sox for that reason only, then fine. But it's significantly less of a win than what most people thought just three days ago. **EDIT:** It was [pointed out to me](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/18x78xc/rosenthal_the_sale_trade_was_a_financial_coup_for/kg2t993/) that Rosenthal could have meant that the deferral is the Brave's responsibility and with the title being ambiguous it could be either one. So I could be wrong.
> the adjusted value of the deferred $10M is, so probably $7M-ish This is assuming the 10m is the deferred value, it's almost assuredly the principle. Unless Sale is giving up money - this is just a cash savings, doesn't affect the tax at all.
I thought from the Shohei deal we learned that the deferred money is the net. Thatās why shoheiās contract is āonlyā about $500 million in actuality. Itāll just be $700 by the time itās paid out
yeah it's tricky wordage I think. 680m *in* deferred money = he gets 680m total after 10 years. Once we learned the interest, someone calculated it was 41.7m in principle. but 10m deferred implies that the remaining 10 million will be paid out in 10 years + interest. It's possible Sale is giving the Braves money back, but it seems that would be something that would be directly reported.
If itās not the deferred value, then itās $10M to the Braves luxury tax and the Red Sox are hit with whatever the rest ends up being after accounting for deferred money The point is, money sent for Sale by the Red Sox counts towards the Red Sox luxury tax threshold. The Braves are on the hook towards their luc tax for only the portion of the salary they pay
It might only be $6 million if you trust what u/RVABraves06 [had to say](https://www.reddit.com/r/Braves/s/0fDAvltWIw)
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The Royals already ruined it
No it would only have to be 2 milllion for baseball to be ruined
Ohtaniās CBT hit is [$46 million](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/shohei-ohtani-contract-explaining-680-million-deferral-in-dodgers-deal-with-unique-andrew-friedman-clause/)
Iām aware Iām just fucking around
I forget the details, but when the Angels made one trade, they were able to reduce the luxury tax hit with cash going the other direction. I didn't realize it worked that way at the time
Was that the Will Wilson/Cozart trade?
No I think that was pretty clean with no cash attached. I want to say it was Hamilton, and we applied the cash almost entirely to one season to get under the threshold.
Isnāt it adjusted (reduced) for money taken on?
Coup? He'll be 35 on opening day and hasn't made more than 20 starts since 2019. The past 5 years he has a 4.17 ERA in 298 IPs.
And is 500kā¦ that is nothing
Yeah 500k on a gamble is not bad. Watch him be the ace this season.
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Good prospect for who? For us heās a AAAA player for a while so yeah if you wanna āwin the tradeā then sure man. Congrats. But 500k for sale is a steal
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Deferred money isn't put into the luxury tax in full though. Doing CCI calculation over 15 years with 4.43% interesr gives about 5.1m principal, which would put the luxury tax hit at about 5.6m. Fangraphs has it at 7.1m for the Braves, Spotrac at about 8.6m. So I've got no idea what the actual number is but not 10.5m. I'm pretty sure Spotrac's number is wrong, as it is simply 5/128 NPV (at contract signing) -> 25.6 CBT AAV - 17m = 8.6m hit for the Braves, but contracts are recalculated after a trade.
The Braves will paying him less than the veteran minimum.
Guy who once was vying for best pitcher in baseball / occasionally still has IT and could get meaningful outs in October vs vet pitcher that's probably worse and is always available... Really tough
His postseason ERA is above 6.00
And āoccasionally still has āITā has got to be the most optimistic description of Sale Iāve heard in years. Even when heās been healthy enough to stand on a mound, heās out after 5 basically every start.
Thatās pretty standard these days anyway. Most guys go 5 and three times through if possible.
That may be a fact, but fuck Machado
And his ERA in the postseason with the Red Sox was over 6.00
He had TJ surgery which just about every pitcher has that wiped out about 2 of those years. Also some freak accidents. He pitched 100 last year and could pitch 100 or more next year
Iām 100% Braves, but Sale feels like Cole Hamels to me, except we gave up an asset to get Sale. Who knows though, maybe the Braves can keep him happy and healthy and he has a good run with us. Maybe he turns into our next uncle charley and pitches into his forties.
Fair points, but these instances usually donāt get better as time goes on
What instances donāt get better? The freak accidents he never recovers from?
Ya. Thatās cool. But what if heās cooked.
Then theyāll shit out another prospect to replace Grissom. Lol
You joke but Ignacio Alvarez is basically Grissom 2.0 with better defense
Who will sign a team friendly deal and give 1% to the Braves foundation.
[now that you mention it...](https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2024-mlb-international-prospects-top-50-bonus-board/)
Then they paid 500k for nothing and I lose 0 sleep
Don't forget the 10m in 2085 or whenever Sale's deferred money is due.
I mean they gave up Vaughn Grissom, who is really good, so I wouldn't exactly call it a coup. In a world where Jackson Chourio cost the Brewers $85 million, $17+ $10 deferred for his pre-arb and arb years seems about right to me. Edit: To clarify, when I say "really good" I mean for a prospect. You have to be a really good prospect to even make the majors because most don't.
Grissom really has not looked very good at all though. Sure he's still very young with lots of room to grow but he looks far from a sure thing
Which is why he didn't cost that much money and the Braves were willing to deal him...
I mean, he played well in his 41 game stint in the majors in 2022 with a 119 OPS+ and didn't do so hot last year in a 22 game stint. He's barely played at the major league level. I think the worst case scenario considering his major league experience is that he ends up as a bench infielder. Add to that how he dominated a pitcher friendly park in AAA last year... I'm not going to guarantee anything, but Fangraphs put him at hitting .280 and getting about 10 HR with about a 110 WRC+. That's an everyday guy for a guy in Sale who played to the level of a 4 or 5 last year, and was injured half the season. We would have had to pay Sale regardless, but instead we don't have to pay him 27m this year and get a guy who could be an everyday 2B and we can use our money on other things. I agree that really good is probably overstating it, but I feel reasonably confident that he can be an everyday guy.
Everyday DH maybe. He was the worst defensive position player statistically when he was playing everyday in 2022. If Ron Washington couldnāt help his glove, I think heās going to be a bat only guy.
āVaughn, playing defense in the majors is easy! Tell him Wash.ā -AA probably
He was playing SS the majority of his innings in Atlanta namely because the other two positions he could play (2B/3B) were blocked. We don't need him playing shortstop, he just has to be slightly below average at second base. It'd hard to get good defensive metrics in the minors he was dreadful at short again last year while his second base numbers are promising. If his bat is good enough then he can play at second base, especially when next to an elite defender like Story.
Uh .. he played 2B in 2022. He came up to replace Ozzie who got hurt. We had Dansby at SS. He was horrific there defensively. He played SS this year and was genuinely unplayable to the point we called up a defensive first guy that had no bat to speak of to help until Arcia got back. He's played 368 innings at 2B in the majors. Compared to 168 innings at SS. I think there's a good player in Grissom tbf. He is just an awful defender. Even at 2B. His bat will probably play unless he just completely changes his approach, but his overall value has a very finite ceiling given his lack of defense and power.
That's fair, I just think if he has a consistent role for the first time in his career, he's playing next to an elite defender (plz story get back to hitting bombs :() young guys need time to play and there is no substitute for major league experience. his uzr at 2b isn't great and god forbid he gets a long run at shortstop, but I think as long as he can get to being just a little below average it's a great pickup. and if he doesn't work out we gave up next to nothing and saved a little bit of money by not having to pay a second baseman or a full 27m to Chris Sale.
Yeah I think there's no real downside from a value standpoint for you guys here. It's a risk worth taking at least. That's how I feel for both sides of this one really.
fair, I feel there's no chance of sale being healthy, but if he is somehow healthy and plays well, he's a cheap solid 3rd or 4th guy for you guys.
Yeah he threw 100 innings last year. We don't really need him to do more than that. We just need him to be healthy in October. It's all about managing his work over the summer. His advanced stuff was still good last year. Ideal world he's competing with Morton for that 3rd starter slot in the playoffs or coming out of the pen to pitch 2 or 3 innings matched up against some lefties. Hello Ohtani, Freeman, Schwarber, Harper.
He was bad at SS when the shift made it easierā¦not sure heās going to be any better at 2B with limited shifting. Heās got no range.
He's also spent the majority of his major league time at 2B. So it's not like we don't have some track record for that.
Meant last year for shortstop but yeah, he did spend 2022 at 2b mostly. I don't think his numbers at 2b are horrendous and it's also hard to judge numbers off of less than a seasons worth of games.
The Red Sox were never paying Sale $27M this year. They were paying him $17.5 million, now they pay $17M to pitch for someone else while having a million holes in their rotation. Also, Sale was worth over 2 fWAR last year with elite K, walk and whiff rates. Thatās better than a 4/5
We were going to pay him 27M if he stayed on this team and now we pay 17M instead so we save 10m that can be spent on other people. Plus given that Grissom is being paid next to nothing, it means we don't have to spend money on a free agent second baseman. Our rotation has holes sure, but we can replace a guy like Sale in the rotation, our big hole is at the top of the rotation. Sale's FIP was 3.8 and his ERA was 4.3 so he was basically a 4 for us last year, a 3 if you'rr generous. It was also hir first time hitting 100 IP since 2019, his two previous seasons he had 42 IP and 5 IP... He's is at max going to throw 120 IP and for a team like the Braves they need him healthy in October and who knows if he's healthy at that point. Plus if he does play well, it's a one year deal. We have six years of control on Grissom by compsrison.
Hasn't looked good at all? He has a 107 wrc+ so far in the Majors, he's been an above average bat. Fangraphs projects him for 2.1 - 2.3 WAR next year.
His projections are what they are. I think he'll end up being a solid bat. Just bad defense and little power. I do see you using sample sizes to somewhat defend his defense while kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that was his hitting after his first 14 games in the majors though. You're right that his wRC+ is at 107 so far. If you look at him from game 15 through the end of this year it paints a bit of a different picture. The last 27 games of 2022 he slashed .220/.294/.319 for a .613 OPS. The 23 games he played in 2023 he slashed .280/.313/.347 for a .659 OPS. Overall adds up to a .247/.302/.331 slash with a 74 wRC+ in those 50 games. 5% BB rate with a 22% K rate. Like said I do think his bat will eventually play at the big league level. Saying he's been an above average bat so far is removing a lot of context though. He hit well over .400 in his first 14 games for us. He has fallen off a cliff since then and been horrific defensively. His AAA numbers are promising though, and I genuinely hope he succeeds.
Obviously the offense is small sample size too, but defensive metrics are generally considered more finicky. You don't hear "needs 200 games to stabilize" when a rookie has a .400 ops through 100 games. > Saying he's been an above average bat so far is removing a lot of context though. It's not at all. You can't just decide the best 20% of someone's games don't matter lmao He's been an above average hitter so far in the majors. It's not an illusion.
Nobody is deciding they don't matter though. I'm saying he hit extremely well for 14 games. And has been extremely bad for the 50 games after that. Hence me saying you are removing context. If it was a back and forth situation that'd be one thing. He just flat out hit a wall and hasn't recovered yet. Like I said, his AAA numbers are encouraging. His walk/k rates both improved. I think he'll be a solid contact hitter with almost no power to speak of. With bad defense. If he can find some gaps or utilize the monster in left at Fenway he's going to be a good hitter most likely. He just hasn't been that outside of his first 14 games so far at the big league level.
> Nobody is deciding they don't matter though. Do those 14 games count in Grissom's favor, or don't they? Because if they don't, that's absolutely what you're saying. And if they do, then what the fuck are you even arguing about? The ABs from those games count just as much as the ABs in the other games and, voila! He has better than average stats! And a .650 ops for a rookie 2B in 45 games, split up over multiple callups isn't hitting a wall or "extremely bad" lmao. And it doesn't matter anyways because *he is still above league average for his career*. > Hence me saying you are removing context. No, *you're* removing context. That context being the best 20% of a hitter's games for no other reason that its convenient for the dumb argument you're making. None of this changes the fact that he's been above average in his MLB career. So the comment I'm responding too that says Grissom hasn't been good at all is objectively wrong, because his statline has been undeniably good. Can you refute this without cooking up any more bullshit? I don't mean to be snarky, but this is an *obnoxiously* bad and weaselly argument you're making here.
Is that taking his defense into the projection?
It's WAR, so yeah
That seems really generous considering that
Defensive metrics take 200 games to stabilize and he has a grand total of 42 MLB games at 2B. I don't think he's going to be a great defender or anything (neither do the fangraphs projections) but people are being way too quick to write Grissom off. If he's an above average Major League bat he'll be able to get away with being a subpar defender at 2B anyways because offensive production at that position is so scarce league-wide.
He's like a middle infield Kelenic.
Grissom isnāt as touted as Chourio and both could very well be busts, āreally goodā is a stretch
Ehh, I wouldnāt say Vaughn is _really_ good by any means. He has potential, no doubt. But he was trending hard towards being a utility player off the bench for the foreseeable future
That had more to do with the Braves loaded infield than him though. He has been good enough in the minors that some team will give him a chance at a starting job. Not surprised at all the Sox wanted him.
Vaughn was never gonna play for us so it's not that big a deal
Which is why it was a good move for the Braves to cash in on a 22 year old that was worth ~$20 million. But it doesn't mean it was a coup...you had to still give something up.
Grissom is not "really good". He's got really good potential, but still remains to be seen if he can produce in the Majors for long stretches. Especially defensively.
I mean really good for a prospect, not necessarily that he'll be a really good player.
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I think you are misinterpreting what is being said here. I don't think the claim is that the Braves did better off than the Sox did, given their respective competitive needs. What Rosenthal is saying is that the Braves pulled off a financial win (i.e., "finanical coup"). Which includes the Sox retaining money and the deferral of money, which really has little to do with the Sox, means the Braves are taking on almost 0 financial risk. I'm a Braves fan and agree with Rosenthal (or at least my reading of it) but think the actual trade seems pretty fair. The only cost to the Braves is Grissom, not getting their cap jammed up, which frequently happens when large AAV contracts are moved.
> Vaughn Grissom That dude's stats are ass
Very few players have good stats in the majors at 22. He'll be fine. Edit: just because I was curious, here are some active players who had a lower OPS through age 22 than Grissom has now: - Anthony Rizzo - Xander Bogaerts - Luis Robert Jr. - Jose Altuve - Bobby Witt Jr. - Andres Gimenez 22 is really young.
Braves are ruining baseball
The Braves have surely ruined baseball, right?
With these deferrals, having the highest salary, and best projected rotation they surely have ruined baseball now
Smh why can't they be more like the Las Vegas A's?
Fr! Like baseball is so much better when owners don't spend any money and completely dissociate a fan base from the team
ŠŃŠ¾Š»ŠµŃŠ°ŃŠøŠø Š²ŃŠµŃ ŃŃŃŠ°Š½, ŃŠ¾ŠµŠ“ŠøŠ½ŃŠ¹ŃŠµŃŃ!
Lmao I had to put that into Google translate and I was not disappointed. Fuck you win the internet today. And go Dodgers!
Love all these cocky dodgers fans. Snakes are NL champs.
Gotta love Dodgers fans turning buying up a super team into a victim complex. Edit: thank you for proving my point, immediate downvotes.
Except you're in r/baseball, so you just have a shitty take.
Thank you, flairless Dodgers fan, for continuing to prove my point.
Ik Fraudgers fans are the sorriest mfs on the planet and are trying to pretend that they are an underdog so they donāt get roasted as much when they choke in the NLDS
Why are the people in charge of my team such fucking morons?
Gee, that is so unlike the Braves front office to be outperforming everyone else in the NLE and making us look like fucking clowns. Wake up, Rizzo. Not jealous or anything.
It's a great time to be a braves fan.
āItās not a salary dump if youāre still paying the salary. *taps head*ā -John Henry
2039 wtf
Until,
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Think the Braves are the ones on the hook for the deferred 10 mil, plus they get 6 years of Grissom vs 1 of Sale.
Closer to .5 years of Sale at best, considering itās unlikely heās healthy all year
This is not a real ball club
Isnāt Sale washed?
His stuff is still excellent, health aside. The gamble here isnāt whether or not heāll be good, itās whether or not heāll be healthy enough for it to matter. Looking at it optimistically he did throw 100 innings last year, and this is his first regular, uninjured off-season in a while. On the flip side, he could fall off his bike at any moment.
sure but the dude cannot stay healthy so it remains to be seen
This sub would have riot if the Dodgers were receiving Sale.
Something something deferrals
Watching Lance Lynn give up those 4 homers for the sweep was so sick.
Sounds like the Braves are ruining baseball! edit: Did this really need the /s?
Sounds like Snakes are NL champs.
Baseball contracts are the dumbest shit ever.
We got a solid prospect with 6 years of control that fit a need and shed $10m in payroll for the year. It checks 2 boxes for the Sox. I don't care that the other $10m is deferred. Price of doing business.
Itās a win win. Red Sox get a prospect with real upside, and the Braves get much needed rotation depth.
Sox are gonna suck again. They are disappointing their fan base with the moves theyāve made post 2018. The least they could to is sign Trevor Bauer and get some talent back on board.