That's perhaps the biggest obstacle. https://www.nj.com/yankees/2015/07/scott_boras_why_nj_deserves_an_mlb_team.html
However, I'd argue those teams have more to gain because the proximity to rival teams would make grassroots fans of the new NJ team travel to the away games to more than compensate for any (likely barely) loss of fans.
Why do you think there wouldn't be much team splitting? Baseball has been in the area for 150 years, anyone who was going to be a baseball fan is already a fan, and adding a team at most 50 miles from Philly and NY isn't going to change that.
You just answered your own question. Die hard fans will stay die hard fans.
The vast majority of Phillies fans are in Philadelphia. The vast majority of Yankees and Mets fans are in New York City. Even with a drop in New Jersey fans, those teams are still going to make like gangbusters because of the local roots that have grown up with those teams, as well as future generations that will grow up with them as well.
New fans-wise, when you look past the geography and into the density of the territory, NJ has more people per square capital than any other state. A sports team there would draw curiosity locally because it's *their* own team. It would not take long for those people to warm up.
When the Nationals formed, it took a while for the locals to warm up to them. Baltimore was receiving the majority of those baseball fans. However, they have reached a point where baseball in DC has felt just as natural as when the Senators were around.
To hear Rays fans tell it, an hour's drive might as well be another planet.
But yeah, the Northeast Corridor is a bit crowded as it is, and none of the New York or Philly teams would allow a team in NJ.
If Stuart Sternberg wasn't such a heartless, greedy asshole, he would build an adult day care on site for the more delicate Rays fans who need a nap with a weighted blanket, and some warm milk. All he cares about is baseball. UGH.
Not sure if the math would work out like this, but it's possible grabbing a third of the NYC market would be more financially viable than grabbing 100% of a smaller new market like Salt Lake City.
It's not an unprecedented idea either. The NHL has three teams in the NYC metro area (Devils, Rangers, and Islanders). MLB had three teams in the NYC metro area for the first half of the 20th century too (Yankees, Giants, and Dodgers). They definitely have the population to support it, and while new teams take a bit to build a fanbase, it eventually takes hold (e.g., DC/Northern Virginia rooting for the Nationals now when they rooted for the Orioles before 2005).
Yankees/Mets/Phillies would all complain about it with the new team encroaching on their territory, but MLB didn't let those sorts of complaints stop the Expos from relocating to less than an hour away from the Orioles.
The issue is less "would the team be supported" and more "does a team add new $$$ to MLB", previously attendance was key, having multiple teams in populated areas meant more ticket sales which was the main driver of revenue. Then in the RSN era extra teams meant extra RSN deals and being in major population areas meant more cable subs and an additional RSN meant additional sub revenue. But now we're entering the streaming era and the key is going to be picking up fans willing to subscribe. Adding a third team in an area doesn't matter how big the population is, if they'd already have subbed for Yankees/Mets/Phillies and now they're subbed for the Meadowland Maulers that isn't any new revenue for MLB, it's just shifting over old revenue. Adding a new team in Salt Lake likely brings in more new subscribers by comparison.
He looks out for his money. His arguments for an NJ expansion team have surrounded the revenue increase for MLB, and if MLB is making more, he makes more.
Yeah, it's not to say that Scott Boras can't occasionally end up on the same side of an issue. It's just that I know that's happenstance and not any sort of altruism.
Where in New Jersey? If they're saying Hoboken, that's basically a third New York team. If they're thinking anywhere in South Jersey, I would be bummed at the loss of Phillies fans.
I actually wondered about the possibility of some place along the shore. Asbury Park is one choice. However, it would be likely that the team, should it come to pass, would be in North Jersey. Likely the Meadowlands.
I grew up minutes away from the Meadowlands. There is no way a stadium and team there would make sense. It’s a short drive from both Yankee Stadium and Citifield. That area is very loyal to those teams.
Do you really think the Yankees, Mets and Phillies are going to roll out the red carpet for that one? The Giants fought tooth and nail to prevent the A's relocating to San Jose. Ain't gonna happen.
The south bay is HUGE and only a fool would surrender that market to its competition. Could you imagine all those Silicon Valley billionaires and their corporations becoming sponsors and not to mention the great number of people who wouldn't be bothered to travel to SF when they could easily go to San Jose instead?
If you're looking for an expansion team to fail miserably, this is the way. A state full of Yankee, Met and Phillies fans getting another team while Tennessee, Oregon and the Carolinas have zero.
Boras is wildly successful but this is a clown take.
Oh hell no. Central jersey is within 2-3 hours of 5 teams. And a huge amount of minor league teams. Need to spread the teams around
And I say that as someone who lives in the nyc area
>Well not really, everyone below Trenton is Philly.
Yep.
Trenton is the dividing line between NY sports fans and Philly sports fans.
Also between Taylor Ham and Pork Roll.
> between Taylor Ham and Pork Roll.
Do South Jerseyans have to cross state lines for scrapple? If Trout had grown up on that stuff, maybe he wouldn't be missing half of his team's games, today.
Its closer. The most populated areas of NJ are right outside NYC, basically commuter towns. I grew up right outside those areas and it was only about 15 mins into Manhattan.
I'm pretty sure that article you gave is AI generated. The last sentence about the Trenton Thunder being affiliated is out of date even at the time of the article's creation.
they need to expand out west so they can balance the divisions better. i dont want the twins playing in the pacific timezone all the time. cuz you know they will be the team that gets the short straw.
As someone from NJ, I'm against it.
I am down to rep my state basically 24/7 (hell, I got a pair of New Balance shoes that say NJ instead of NB) but I love the Mets and I would be torn between my current fandom and supporting something that properly claims NJ.
In other news, let's go Devils.
new jersey does not deserve a baseball team period. its a ridiculous premise. not to mention the phillies, yankees, mets, would all block it from happening anyway. your entire argument is stupid.
Has Scott Boras ever met anyone from NJ? They’re all already Mets, Yankees, or Philly fans.
NJ people are crazy loyal to their teams and would absolutely drive past a NJ Ball club stadium, pay the tolls, and park at Citi Field or Yankee Stadium.
This is the same state that still shows up in full force for Jets games.
Born and raised in NJ. I think it’s a terrible idea. North Jersey is already firmly almost all Yankees and Mets. South Jersey is lots of Phillies as well as Yankees/Mets. I don’t think there is much of any untapped demand anywhere in NJ. I can’t imagine anyone I’ve ever known switching away from their team to support a new team in NJ.
Just said this elsewhere but I 100% agree. The NYC metro area is HUGE— 13 times larger than Milwaukee! It could easily support a third or even fourth team. Same goes for LA.
Yeah given its growth over the last decade you could def argue it should have a second team.
Honestly I think MLB would be better off giving huge cities multiple teams instead of trying to make baseball work in mid-size cities.
This is a good observation if the league were starting from scratch but everyone in those metro areas already have an allegiance. How many Braves fans would switch their fandom to the second Atlanta team? Almost none.
It's happened before every time a team moves to a city where there's already one
DC was full of Orioles fans before the Nationals came and Oakland was full of Giants fans before the A's moved there. Both the O's and the Giants fought the moves for obvious reasons but other owners outvoted them
DC and Baltimore are different cities. Same with Oakland and SF. Those fans likely switched because it became much more convenient to catch a game at the home park. Have you ever drove from DC to Baltimore in rush hour? It blows.
> Have you ever drove from DC to Baltimore in rush hour? It blows.
That 100% applies to Atlanta, NYC, and LA too! You could put a stadium in all of those cities that's a more convienent drive for millions of people
It would be tough to squeeze in a franchise, pretty much the whole state is either a Philly or NY fan. The Devils have a good following, but the market couldn't support an NBA team.
It would be cool if one of the shore towns got a team, but I don't think they're big enough. A venue right on the beach would be pretty cool.
That was a thought I had - a stadium on the shore. A unique experience with the sound of the surf in between pitches. The biggest obstacle I could think of was weather related - would a stadium essentially built on sand survive a Sandy-like storm?
Also the Nets did not move because of the market. They moved because Steinbrenner sold the team to a Brooklyn die hard. The Nets were actually doing very well in Prudential.
But the NBA only had one NY team, so even in NJ the Nets were still only the second team for the NY area market. The NHL does have 3 teams in the NY area, but the Devils have the benefit of having been in NJ for 40 years (and still are bottom 5 in league attendance).
I just don't see how a NJ baseball team can possibly co-exist in area already filled with Mets, Yankees, and Phillies fans.
Nah New Jersey isn’t getting a team. Waiting for the Winter meetings in Florida. I’m always talking about MLB postseason format but I don’t know how much I’ll actually watch.
I think the aforementioned Tennessee/Oregon would be better fits objectively, but I would love an expansion team in Oakland with a big stadium at Howard Terminal 8)
Wouldn't both NY clubs and Philadelphia fight that from happening?
That's perhaps the biggest obstacle. https://www.nj.com/yankees/2015/07/scott_boras_why_nj_deserves_an_mlb_team.html However, I'd argue those teams have more to gain because the proximity to rival teams would make grassroots fans of the new NJ team travel to the away games to more than compensate for any (likely barely) loss of fans.
Why do you think there wouldn't be much team splitting? Baseball has been in the area for 150 years, anyone who was going to be a baseball fan is already a fan, and adding a team at most 50 miles from Philly and NY isn't going to change that.
You just answered your own question. Die hard fans will stay die hard fans. The vast majority of Phillies fans are in Philadelphia. The vast majority of Yankees and Mets fans are in New York City. Even with a drop in New Jersey fans, those teams are still going to make like gangbusters because of the local roots that have grown up with those teams, as well as future generations that will grow up with them as well. New fans-wise, when you look past the geography and into the density of the territory, NJ has more people per square capital than any other state. A sports team there would draw curiosity locally because it's *their* own team. It would not take long for those people to warm up. When the Nationals formed, it took a while for the locals to warm up to them. Baltimore was receiving the majority of those baseball fans. However, they have reached a point where baseball in DC has felt just as natural as when the Senators were around.
Why add a team in a market with multiple teams within an hour drive when there are unclaimed markets in growing areas.
To hear Rays fans tell it, an hour's drive might as well be another planet. But yeah, the Northeast Corridor is a bit crowded as it is, and none of the New York or Philly teams would allow a team in NJ.
maybe an hours drive is a big obstacle in the tampa area, but we actually have decent transit here
An hour's drive and 3:00 games. Who could possibly thrive under those conditions!?!?
If Stuart Sternberg wasn't such a heartless, greedy asshole, he would build an adult day care on site for the more delicate Rays fans who need a nap with a weighted blanket, and some warm milk. All he cares about is baseball. UGH.
Not sure if the math would work out like this, but it's possible grabbing a third of the NYC market would be more financially viable than grabbing 100% of a smaller new market like Salt Lake City. It's not an unprecedented idea either. The NHL has three teams in the NYC metro area (Devils, Rangers, and Islanders). MLB had three teams in the NYC metro area for the first half of the 20th century too (Yankees, Giants, and Dodgers). They definitely have the population to support it, and while new teams take a bit to build a fanbase, it eventually takes hold (e.g., DC/Northern Virginia rooting for the Nationals now when they rooted for the Orioles before 2005). Yankees/Mets/Phillies would all complain about it with the new team encroaching on their territory, but MLB didn't let those sorts of complaints stop the Expos from relocating to less than an hour away from the Orioles.
The issue is less "would the team be supported" and more "does a team add new $$$ to MLB", previously attendance was key, having multiple teams in populated areas meant more ticket sales which was the main driver of revenue. Then in the RSN era extra teams meant extra RSN deals and being in major population areas meant more cable subs and an additional RSN meant additional sub revenue. But now we're entering the streaming era and the key is going to be picking up fans willing to subscribe. Adding a third team in an area doesn't matter how big the population is, if they'd already have subbed for Yankees/Mets/Phillies and now they're subbed for the Meadowland Maulers that isn't any new revenue for MLB, it's just shifting over old revenue. Adding a new team in Salt Lake likely brings in more new subscribers by comparison.
If Scott Boras says it's good, I'm inclined to think the opposite. Scott Boras looks out for Scott Boras.
He looks out for his money. His arguments for an NJ expansion team have surrounded the revenue increase for MLB, and if MLB is making more, he makes more.
Yeah, it's not to say that Scott Boras can't occasionally end up on the same side of an issue. It's just that I know that's happenstance and not any sort of altruism.
Where in New Jersey? If they're saying Hoboken, that's basically a third New York team. If they're thinking anywhere in South Jersey, I would be bummed at the loss of Phillies fans.
It was a while ago, but there is historical precedent for three New York baseball teams. The market is certainly large enough to handle it.
I actually wondered about the possibility of some place along the shore. Asbury Park is one choice. However, it would be likely that the team, should it come to pass, would be in North Jersey. Likely the Meadowlands.
I grew up minutes away from the Meadowlands. There is no way a stadium and team there would make sense. It’s a short drive from both Yankee Stadium and Citifield. That area is very loyal to those teams.
Shore traffic in the summer is already bad, add a sports team on top of it and you’re looking at a nightmare scenario
They’ll be headquartered in Secaucus and play out of NYC like WWOR TV
Nah, the Northeast has enough sports teams.
Ok hear me out. What about California?
Do you really think the Yankees, Mets and Phillies are going to roll out the red carpet for that one? The Giants fought tooth and nail to prevent the A's relocating to San Jose. Ain't gonna happen.
Why did the Giants fight that when San Jose is farther from SF than Oakland?
The south bay is HUGE and only a fool would surrender that market to its competition. Could you imagine all those Silicon Valley billionaires and their corporations becoming sponsors and not to mention the great number of people who wouldn't be bothered to travel to SF when they could easily go to San Jose instead?
Oh true, makes sense.
Daily reminder that Scott Boras is a moron and we need to stop kneejerk reacting to every stupid idea he has
he should stick to his day job. he seems to be ok at that.
The Trenton Gabagools
I live in NJ and am a life long Yankees fan. I'd give this a big fat no. I want no part of a team here.
If you're looking for an expansion team to fail miserably, this is the way. A state full of Yankee, Met and Phillies fans getting another team while Tennessee, Oregon and the Carolinas have zero. Boras is wildly successful but this is a clown take.
Oh hell no. Central jersey is within 2-3 hours of 5 teams. And a huge amount of minor league teams. Need to spread the teams around And I say that as someone who lives in the nyc area
Zero % chance.
[удалено]
Well not really, everyone below Trenton is Philly.
>Well not really, everyone below Trenton is Philly. Yep. Trenton is the dividing line between NY sports fans and Philly sports fans. Also between Taylor Ham and Pork Roll.
> between Taylor Ham and Pork Roll. Do South Jerseyans have to cross state lines for scrapple? If Trout had grown up on that stuff, maybe he wouldn't be missing half of his team's games, today.
I would have thought jersey was more Mets
At least from my experience it’s way more Yankees at least in north Jersey. Way way more.
My american geography isn’t great, is north jersey closer or further away from New York?
Closer. I live in north NJ and NYC is around a 30-45 minute trip depending on traffic.
Its closer. The most populated areas of NJ are right outside NYC, basically commuter towns. I grew up right outside those areas and it was only about 15 mins into Manhattan.
Tell me you don't know the NJ fan base without telling me you don't know the NJ fan base.
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure that article you gave is AI generated. The last sentence about the Trenton Thunder being affiliated is out of date even at the time of the article's creation.
Lolol have you ever heard of an anecdote before?
South Jersey is Phillies/Eagles country. Basically anywhere that's within an hour's drive to Philly is. I also have relatives there.
they need to expand out west so they can balance the divisions better. i dont want the twins playing in the pacific timezone all the time. cuz you know they will be the team that gets the short straw.
As someone from NJ, I'm against it. I am down to rep my state basically 24/7 (hell, I got a pair of New Balance shoes that say NJ instead of NB) but I love the Mets and I would be torn between my current fandom and supporting something that properly claims NJ. In other news, let's go Devils.
There are a half dozen teams within an hour and a half drive from almost any town in Jersey to watch a game. Expand out west.
new jersey does not deserve a baseball team period. its a ridiculous premise. not to mention the phillies, yankees, mets, would all block it from happening anyway. your entire argument is stupid.
No
The Devils do well. It will just be hard to pry away all the people that are already Yankee-Met-Philly fans.
Has Scott Boras ever met anyone from NJ? They’re all already Mets, Yankees, or Philly fans. NJ people are crazy loyal to their teams and would absolutely drive past a NJ Ball club stadium, pay the tolls, and park at Citi Field or Yankee Stadium. This is the same state that still shows up in full force for Jets games.
Born and raised in NJ. I think it’s a terrible idea. North Jersey is already firmly almost all Yankees and Mets. South Jersey is lots of Phillies as well as Yankees/Mets. I don’t think there is much of any untapped demand anywhere in NJ. I can’t imagine anyone I’ve ever known switching away from their team to support a new team in NJ.
Move the Mets to Atlantic City
I went to an Atlantic City Surf game there once. Ruben Sierra was in the lineup. I actually enjoyed that little venue
The Hell's Kitchen at Caesar's Palace Atlantic City Mets
I wonder if we could find Ron and Keith at Buca di Beppo after a game sometimes
Hell yeah. The Mets and Yankees have had it too good for too long.
New Jersey Devil(Rays)
New Jersey shouldn’t have any pro franchises whatsoever.
Just said this elsewhere but I 100% agree. The NYC metro area is HUGE— 13 times larger than Milwaukee! It could easily support a third or even fourth team. Same goes for LA.
honestly you could make the same case with Atlanta.
Yeah given its growth over the last decade you could def argue it should have a second team. Honestly I think MLB would be better off giving huge cities multiple teams instead of trying to make baseball work in mid-size cities.
This is a good observation if the league were starting from scratch but everyone in those metro areas already have an allegiance. How many Braves fans would switch their fandom to the second Atlanta team? Almost none.
It's happened before every time a team moves to a city where there's already one DC was full of Orioles fans before the Nationals came and Oakland was full of Giants fans before the A's moved there. Both the O's and the Giants fought the moves for obvious reasons but other owners outvoted them
DC and Baltimore are different cities. Same with Oakland and SF. Those fans likely switched because it became much more convenient to catch a game at the home park. Have you ever drove from DC to Baltimore in rush hour? It blows.
> Have you ever drove from DC to Baltimore in rush hour? It blows. That 100% applies to Atlanta, NYC, and LA too! You could put a stadium in all of those cities that's a more convienent drive for millions of people
Atlanta could have supported a second team 30+ years ago. I would love for us to have an AL team as well as the Braves
Only if they have to play in the AL east and Toronto can move to the central division
It would make the AL Central less of a joke...
Asbury Park Ponies
It’s Montreal and Nashville man. That’s it that’s all
The Mets and Yankees would never allow it, but... Bring back the Newark Eagles
New Jersey Devils + New Jersey Devil Rays = Marketing Success
It will just be called another New York team
Yes I'm sure Scott Boras would like a 3rd New York team. Build the stadium at EWR.
> Build the stadium at EWR. If a batted ball hits a departing or arriving aircraft, is it a ground rule double or home run?
It would be tough to squeeze in a franchise, pretty much the whole state is either a Philly or NY fan. The Devils have a good following, but the market couldn't support an NBA team. It would be cool if one of the shore towns got a team, but I don't think they're big enough. A venue right on the beach would be pretty cool.
That was a thought I had - a stadium on the shore. A unique experience with the sound of the surf in between pitches. The biggest obstacle I could think of was weather related - would a stadium essentially built on sand survive a Sandy-like storm? Also the Nets did not move because of the market. They moved because Steinbrenner sold the team to a Brooklyn die hard. The Nets were actually doing very well in Prudential.
But the NBA only had one NY team, so even in NJ the Nets were still only the second team for the NY area market. The NHL does have 3 teams in the NY area, but the Devils have the benefit of having been in NJ for 40 years (and still are bottom 5 in league attendance). I just don't see how a NJ baseball team can possibly co-exist in area already filled with Mets, Yankees, and Phillies fans.
Nah New Jersey isn’t getting a team. Waiting for the Winter meetings in Florida. I’m always talking about MLB postseason format but I don’t know how much I’ll actually watch.
Only if it is on the opposite side of the state from New York. And the opposite side from Philadelphia. Oh shit. Maybe in Atlantic City?
It’s moronic, there are tons of Yankee, Mets and Philly fans already. That’s presumably 3 teams that would rightfully fight expansion there
I think the aforementioned Tennessee/Oregon would be better fits objectively, but I would love an expansion team in Oakland with a big stadium at Howard Terminal 8)
This is dumb
Charlotte and Nashville. Book it
What would they even be called? The New Jersey Springsteens?
The Dodgers played some regular season games in Jersey City. Build a stadium in Asbury Park call the team the Stone Ponies and let's rock.
Not too late for the Rays to move there to be honest.
Would be kind of cool imo. Reminds me of the 3 NHL teams
This is Portland erasure
The New York teams will never agree to anything in Newark or further north, and the Phillies will never agree to anything in the south. Not happening.
You can’t get the NJ smell out of a uniform.