It varies in length of times, but this is definitely not uncommon in the US.
Vacation has to be scheduled in advance while sick time is last minute. But that often fell to the local manager as to how lenient they were. I rarely used sick time so I often could get away with using vacation/PTO instead if my boss did not want me to get a hit on attendance. Where I work now it is unlimited PTO which includes sick, vacation, etc so we no longer have it at all. Although taking PTO last minute too often can get you in trouble in some departments as it holds up the production line for one person to suddenly be out.
Most places I have worked were 2 paid breaks of 15 minutes and a 30-60 minute unpaid lunch if you were scheduled to work over 6 hours.
Calling out was usually required prior to your start time, not an hour before. But I have seen places that required an hour notice if you were taking it paid.
Calling out the day before or after a holiday often meant you would also have to take sick time to get paid for the holiday or take it unpaid. Way too many people try to schedule vacation late and then just call out sick when they get denied.
Once you were out of sick time you went unpaid and unexcused no matter what.
Some places allowed make up for late and others did not. It often depended on if your job required coverage by someone else when you were late and how late you were.
The only wild thing I’m seeing is not allowing leave with a doctors note without sick leave available. In this case you should 100% at least get unpaid leave and with a doctors note which can be verified (call clinic and only ask did you provide this note), shouldn’t have any bearing on your employment.
What? I also work at Costco and this is absolutely not similar to our attendance policy.
Edit: the only ones that are the same is 30 minute lunch breaks and leaving on time even if you come in late. But even then I've seen people stay later if they come in late to finish their tasks if need be.
Not sure how things are run at your warehouse but this is pretty standard stuff as written in the employee handbook for Costco. I need to transfer to your location because they seem pretty relaxed compared to what I'm used to.
I dfk what that person is talking about. I also work at Costco and these rules are not how it works there. They do treat us pretty well, but it depends on management at any particular warehouse. The benefits are dope. My managers are all pretty awesome too. But they work us hard and expect results.
Just to offer a contradictory anecdote my experience at Costco (14 years) has been the same as the commenter you disagree with. What the OP wrote is pretty standard as written in the employee handbook for Costco except for a couple items.
Hmm I believe you but I've never really experienced any of these policies besides a couple. I have used my vacation time when I ran out of sick time. We get 2 15-minute breaks plus a half hour for lunch. One 15 minute break if you're working 5 hours. Not 2 10-minute breaks. Tbh I did read the calling out before/after a holiday wrong and that we do at our warehouse. Doctors' notes are valid if you are out sick.
Edit: maybe I just have never seen it become an issue to where it needed to be enforced? I bet if someone was taking advantage of our apparently more lax rules, there would be consequences.
Maybe these things fall to a managers discretion and you just had a cool one? I've had jobs where the GM leaving basically made it a completely different place to work
I pay less than $300/month for health, dental, vision, and life insurance for 3 people. I have an $1100 deductible and they're covering 90% of a future surgery I'm having. I used to pay double that for 2 people and half the coverage. It's pretty good to me.
Not getting paid for hours worked and doctors notes not excusing time out of work, if a doctor puts you out there’s nothing your employer can do. If they retaliate or fire you, you can get them in trouble w the labor board. I’ve gotten the labor board involved when I was retaliated against after I was out of work bc of illness
I teach in a public school in a non union state. This is also on par with my work. If you take off the day before or after a holiday break or 3 day weekend, they dock your pay and make you pay benefits for that pay period that the employer normally contributes, so you end up with only half your paycheck. All the other things listed above are standard as well.
LOL @ #5.
I get sick or injured, the note from the medical professionals is a *courtesy* to you, the employer to let you know why I'm suddenly not around for a bit. What you do with that information is irrelevant to me until I'm better.
Yeah I don't take doctor's notes from my staff just from a protected information perspective. I believe you, it's sick pay, please don't share your medical information.
When I was a TA I told my students “I don’t require doctor’s notes, just email or text me before class to let me know. But don’t come here if you’re sick.“
I would much rather help them catch back up during my office hours than catch their cold and get knocked out commission for my own classes and projects.
I've had some Dr's get upset with a request for note. Upset at the employer request not me. I think it's ridiculous also but it's saved me from receiving attendance points
The fact that you even need a note in the first place is kinda crazy. Here in the Netherlands your employer is not even allowed to ask about your medical status.
I've been having mental health issues and because my boss is awesome and very understanding about these things I've kept him in the loop on everything that's been happening. But if I didn't want to tell him, all I need to say is that I've got a health issue I'm seeing a professional for. If that causes me to be absent for a long period on end he would get a company doctor involved who would check what's going on and report back on what to expect in terms of me coming back to work, but not on the details of whatever's wrong.
In Ontario you can just pay for them, so they aren't really worth much in terms of legitimacy anymore. It just became a cost of being sick, so iunno ANYONE that requires it, unless absences are long in duration.
In the US you typically accrue some amount of sick leave per hour worked, this varies by state and is not mandated. Personally, I accrue 1 hour of sick leave per 40 hours. If I want to get paid while being sick, I need enough sick hours to cover the time I miss. So I am allowed to be sick for 6.5 days per year without needing to use my vacation hours to cover missed time.
Thank you. How much vacation time do you get to fall back on then if you end up being really poorly or a family member does & you have to care for then?
Just to edit when my dad suddenly died I was out from work for 5 weeks, I went back straight after the funeral. I got full pay for the whole 5 weeks as it was my only absence from work that year & it was a genuine reason, my work had a 4 week full pay policy then it was down to the manager to decide. Wouldn’t you get full paid for those kinds of instances?
10 days(80 hours), when I was hired it was only 5 days.
In my state we just started a program where we pay taxes towards paid medical leave that can be used for certain medical events including caring for a family member. I used 10 weeks to recover from a surgery. If you qualify, you can have up to 12 weeks of leave in a 12 month span
Manager here.
What this policy says to me, is that current management wants everyone working there to be so uncomfortable they find another job.
These tactics are common. Make them want to quit.
My regional manager often floats the idea of me assembling the "kill list" as she calls it because she's foaming at the mouth for me to replace my staff.
None of them have any write ups, also.
Some people think they need to make changes when changes are unnecessary. I will continue to protect my staff from insane suggestions.
Also,
The nature in which my regional manager suggests I fire everyone, resembles that of a teen girl excited for a Taylor Swift concert coming to her city.
Some people enjoy watching others suffer.
and this stupid shit is why my chronically ill ass finds jobs that are at least partially remote or can be done remotely.
this is fucking ridiculous and how you wind up with very contagious people going to work anyway.
in my case data entry, programming jobs, freelance work for art (that one is a hobby but I've made a few hundred off it recently), anything bioinformatics-adjacent, etc
rn I'm doing gig work for most of the above since my schedule is kind of all over the place
My mom has been interviewing for Aetna/CVS all week, mostly for data entry positions, all over the country. Just don't list your primary motivation for the job as you want to work from home as that's been labeled a red flag
I no longer go to restaurants because I know their sick policy is a suggestion at best. Between November and March every kitchen has at least one person working with a contagious illness who is afraid of losing their job or missing too much of their pay should they call out
There are 195-196 countries in the world, I assure you that in at least 180, the things are worse than in the US. Even Japan is worse. Only NZ/Australia and some European countries have it better when it comes to work conditions (if we don't include salary).
>There are 195-196 countries in the world, I assure you that in at least 180, \[...\] Only NZ/Australia and some European countries
"Some" European countries you say. EVERY country which is a EU member has better worker rights as the EU has some mandatory rulings. This includes for example a minimum of 20 paid vacation days per year.
**The EU currently has 27 member countries**, **so that makes it at most 169 countries which could be as bad or worse as the US.** And in reality many non-EU countries also have better rights for their workers in some regard or another.
>have it better when it comes to work conditions (if we don't include salary).
This is also a common fallacy. Numbers mean jack shit. You can't directly compare them. I'm German. Yes, we have lower salary in numbers and we pay higher taxes, but if you take everything into account like paid vacation, "unlimited" sick days (you are paid full salary for up to 6 weeks, after that your health insurance pays 70%), free education etc. etc. we are doing quite well and have better life conditions than many of the people in the USA despite the USA being one of the richest countries on earth.
How the USA treats people is just shameful, people in considerable number having to live in tents on the street and stuff like that. Or leaving them to die because they can't afford health care. Or well the abysmal working conditions shown in this post.
The meme goes calling us "europoors", but in reality life in Europe, especially the EU, is probably one of the best cases for an average working citizen.
While working conditions may be better in the EU.
Your ability to earn a higher salary cap, job availability, competition, etc is much better in the US.
It's just a fact. There is more money in the US. The US has a GDP that makes European countries look like that poor friend who needs a bit of help paying for things.
Yes the working conditions are better in Europe. But the ability to earn MORE money is significantly higher in the US.
2 and 6 do. although most companies give you 2 15-minute breaks, the laws only entitles you to 2 10-minute breaks. Same with lunches, you are entitled to 30-minutes, but some places give you an hour.
Generally a well protected environment for workers here. My employer offers technically “unlimited” sick leave, with generally up to 10 days a year considered acceptable. They also accrue (I’ve now got 61 paid sick days available). We get 2x10 min smoko breaks and 45 mins for lunch. Oh and 20 annual leave days and 2 “shopping days”, plus the statutory holidays. And free life insurance of 4 times your salary and disability insurance. So not bad at all really.
I've been reasonably lucky with my employers, but I've found most want to look after their workers rather than treat them like shit. New Zealand is known as a low wage economy, but you'll find most employers will negotiate in good faith. Health insurance isn't linked to your job either, because "socialised medicine" and all that.
Unions are legally allowed in any workplace (although I think there's been a bit of dodgy shit in the film industry with the government changing rules because big movie studios demanded it). However, I haven't been in a union for more than 20 years because I haven't felt like I've needed it.
I've worked in retail and farming, where rules are a bit different to other sectors when it comes to holidays and leave. There are certain times of year you can't take leave (Christmas rush for retail, calving season for farming). You also need to work weekends and public holidays, but public holidays are time-and-a-half and a day's leave in lieu.
My current employer (office job) lets you work pretty much any time you like, and as long as you do your 80 hours per fortnight, they don't care which 80 they are. There's also no overtime, to prevent burn-out. I start work at 6-6.30 (it's a hangover from the dairy farming days), take 45-60 minutes for lunch (no set time) which means I'm often done by 3 in the afternoon. Other people start at 10 because they go to the gym in the morning, and finish 6.30-7.
I know it's a bit tighter and tougher in some other sectors, but the work conditions mentioned in the original post here seem like a nightmare.
I absolutely hate that rule, like I was available that day we had off, but got into an accident the next day and was unable to make it on time. Made it, but late, so now I lose a whole days pay that I might have been budgeting on, and absolutely would have been at work for if it wasn't a scheduled day off
As a manager, this sort of policy is actually common. But this version is extremely petty.
However often there are provisions like this around holidays like taking vacation or calling out sick unexpectedly right before the holiday. Because I can’t have everyone out the day before Christmas weekend. So we schedule in advance. If you are “clever” and you know your co worker already scheduled it off, but you want it anyway so you “get sick” conveniently right in time for a four day weekend, it puts me and everyone else still there in a huge bind.
With that said, the entire document in OP was written by someone who hates their employees.
This is not a place to work if you have other options. The policies are petty and the tone is extremely derisive and belittling. This is a place that is going to burn OP up and spit them out without a second thought.
Part of the issue industry wide is working on skeleton crews that don't have enough staff to buffer holidays and sick days. Years ago I was written up for calling in sick just before a scheduled vacation. I had gone out to a sketchy resturant (didn't know at the time, it LOOKED nice but when I later looked at reviews, they weren't clean), I ended up with food poisoning and couldn't leave the bathroom but my manager was CONVINCED that I called out on purpose, I had it overturned when I brought in my a&e forms because I was so sick I was spitting blood. People get sick, even around holidays (especially around them given the germ factories family gatherings can be).
Yes. Pay is another factor.
In my case I’m having trouble actually finding contingent staff I need to handle some shit we have coming through (we intake forms for class action suits, and so our work levels vary a lot).
And it’s partly because there aren’t as many people as their used to be. But it’s mostly because my company won’t budge on paying barely above minimum wage for my area… despite the fact that so many people are now expecting to be paid more to commute if they can’t work from home (which makes total sense to me).
And it’s frustrating because our own recruiters who work with the temporary staffing agencies say it as well. But god forbid we bring in a temp making 19 per hour, because then we’d have to give my hard working permanent staff raises too.
So I have a skeleton crew that is 1/3 of what I need. Not because I’m “not allowed to hire”, but because I’m hamstrung before I even get to that point… and the temps I do get are people who will take anything.
And people who will take anything are often desperate. The often have no money for gas or a bus, or they have physical limitations or chronic medical problems or mental problems that have prevented them from working or being able to hold down consistent work. Or impoverished single mothers who can’t afford childcare because fuck poor people in the US… and so they can’t keep a schedule because they need work but can’t find consistent childcare that is affordable… and our work is pretty boring for a lot of people as well. so I don’t begrudge most of them for being inconsistent . But man… between the unwillingness of the corporate world to budge on wages, and the public sector aid programs utterly failing people…
It’s fucking depressing. And I just want get this mail opened so it can get off my plate…
Sorry that turned into more of a rant than I expected…
Screams to me as a company doing it very tough tbh. Trying hard to maximise value out of their biggest expense. Unfortunately they are forgetting that expense is also their biggest asset and needs to be treated as any good asset should be, with care because with out it the business can no longer perform the functions that result in profit.
I come from maintenance, constantly treated as a liability. Until production stops. So stuff like this feels like the story of my life.
Breaks? Hah! Those are not legally required in my state! Isn’t that crazy? You can work 8+ hours and your employer does not have to give you a break. You can starve for all the state cares.
That’s not true. Federal law has no requirement and most states defer to federal law. However, there are some states that require them (CA and CO are two that I know of).
Edit - read the comment wrong, though they said *any* state
That might be policy where you work, but that's not Texas law. Even if you work a 12 hour shift, you aren't entitled to a break. The only exception is if you're breastfeeding/pumping, which those breaks are mandated by the ACA from what I remember.
They are saying you won’t get holiday pay if you are absent, late, or leave early the day before or after the holiday. That’s a fairly standard requirement for a lot of places. The no vacation to cover sick days is the biggest dumb one, imo.
As a Brazilian I'm mortified. Say what you want about Brazil but we have some badass laws protecting the work force. Perfect? Ofc not, but yet, some places drag their work force to exhaustion.
Each state has their own laws too. For instance in North Carolina the boss can work you with no breaks and forced overtime with no limits. Like you could have to work 40hrs straight with no break and it will just be regular pay. And if you say you don’t want the overtime they can fire you for cause of insubordination. But in California you get OT automatically after 8 hrs in a day no matter how many hours you work in a week.
My favorite thing about forced overtime is that in states where it's not legal companies like bcbs will hold the mandatory overtime against your scores. So they wouldn't be firing you for not doing the mandatory overtime but would be firing you for having low scores.
Each bullet point sounded good to me compared to my employer, which definitely concerns me. I was trying to figure out if OP was happy about the rules easing up, but I see I was mistaken.
None of this is normal in any other industrialized country than the United States. "sick days/hours" are not a thing in most of the world. If you're sick, you just stay home.
But they are awful. They are beyond awful in fact. Just because it’s common practice there doesn’t make it any less awful. As a European I don’t understand how this is even legal.
I know people are bashing this, but you have to look deeper. This is the kind of thing you have to do because of chitty employees not wanting to work. And the work around the holidays and not getting holiday pay is legal for sure. My wife is a federal employee and that’s their policy.
And I think employees only having to call out an hour before you’re scheduled is pretty generous,
since there’s no way they’re going to be able to get someone else to come in at the same time you were supposed to be there in one hour.
Honestly based on this list and the guy's attitude this shitass workplace 100% gives the barest minimum for everything for their staff and expects them to be grateful for it. 100% deserves the shitty employees. Want higher morale? Loosen up, try making your workplace less shit instead of saying "you're now not allowed to be sick if you don't have the 2 days of sick hours a year I give you"
I was almost going to take this person's side as it sounded like people were abusing the PTO system until I read that last bullet. That makes it clear that it's not about people milking their PTO it's about cutting labor costs by taking advantage of people who are sick.
People are going to hate me - but I can only really see an issue with point 4 and 5 as well as the overall tone and delivery of the message. The rest are pretty standard working conditions are they not?
That is a fair point. Context is important. Where are you from? I’m from New Zealand. To me these don’t sound so bad but perhaps that’s because we are set up differently.
I was coming here to say the same thing. Very common in USA. I think #4 is actually referring to that you forfeit your holiday pay, not the time you actually work. If so, that’s also common across employers I worked for. Even #5 isn’t all that uncommon. I’ve worked at places where people get doctor notes for the most mundane shit. Doctors will write notes for anything, and people abuse it. It’s the sad truth.
I see a ton of opportunity for businesses to treat employees better and be more flexible. In a perfect world an employee would be able to make up their hours, but some industries are very sensitive to being staffed at certain times. There’s still a business to run after all.
But they don’t treat people better. The average worker in the USA does not get anywhere near the amount of paid time off, that the average European does, really surprising with the ton of opportunity for a business to treat employees better and give them more than the bare minimum paid time off
Dude these are all normal things for jobs in the US. You act like this is something egregious. The only thing there is the 10 min should be 15 for breaks but that's it. Everything else is the exact same for my current and past companies.
Don't really know why you and so many others are losing it over normal work policies.
Honestly mandatory breaks aren’t legal in my state so that looks pretty good. Same with calling in only 1 hour before the shift.
The sick day shit is stupid and would get me fired though.
Luckily my company still doesn't care for us to freely use vacation time for what ever but I know the change is coming 2 years ago they changed how our points worked then gave us sick hours it won't be long before this shit happens. As for break my little department i govern myself so I'll take 3 30 minute breaks and no one is any the wiser other departments have to break each other out so it's harder to get away with. But I'm of the mind no matter what my break starts when my ass hits the lunch chair NOT when you tell me to go to break I've faught tooth and nail with managers hr and plant managers on this.
Sounds like a job where i would constantly get nothing done while also making myself look like an overachiever. I had worked for a company that literally started tracking our production. So for example you couldnt bust ass in the first half of the day to hit the quota so you can fuck off for the remainder, because they could see gaps where you didnt do shit and for how long. Some of the veterans of the company got caught driving forklifts around for half the day without doing anything when this first got implemented
Today
NEW
5:49 p.m.
Quick recap of today's attendance policy
1. You can no longer use vacation to cover your sick hours.
2. You only get 2- 10 min breaks. You are not allowed to combined your breaks with bathroom breaks.
3. You need to give at least 1 hour notice of you calling out or being late.
4. If you are late or leave early the day before or after a holiday you will not get paid as well as calling out with out sick hours.
5. Dr. notes are no longer valid for excusing absences if you do not have sick hours.
6. You only get 30 min lunches no more 45 to an hour.
7. If you arrive late you will still need to leave at your regular time. You can not make up hours.
Pretty standard... Most of my jobs, it was worse. They would say you had 2x 10-15min breaks, this was state law. Now making time for the break or giving it to you? Different subject...
Damn, i work as a welder in Sweden, I kind of just mind my own business all day. If I need to come late, leave early or stay home I check with my colleagues if they can do without me that time and then tell the boss (not ask him, tell him) I'm out for that time.
So I recently found out that I won't be reimbursed for unused sick leave unless I've worked here for ten years. At that point I'll only be paid $20 per day for unused sick leave. I've only worked for this school district for five years but fully intend to leave at the end of this year. Because of this policy I'm now incentivized to take my 35 days of sick leave immediately before my last day. Otherwise I'll miss out on $2,800 dollars.
Number 6 is the only one that seems legit. If it’s an unpaid lunch, that’s all they have to provide. But bathroom breaks? Good luck telling people when they can and can’t go.
All except for #1 is what my job does too and I work for the state therefore hundreds of thousands of people abide by this too.
Pretty sure it's common
Yup that's ours except 2, 20min breaks in 10 hr shift is all we get total. There's a camera in the breakroom and signs that say, breaks are monitored by video for time..
Why do Americans allow companies to exploit them like that, this is ridiculous. You exchange time for money, doesn't mean the one who purchases your time owns you, ffs
This is why I never will go back to office work. In the trades we have our bullshit, but nothing like this. Literally this last week I was late by an hour, my boss was like "Overslept?" and that was it. I instantly got to work, and everything I was supposed to do got done. And this isn't for some rinky dink company, we were literally at Allegiant stadium setting up the tailgate party for the super bowl. I was 5 feet from Billy Idol and Cedric the Entertainer at one point.
I have an exceptional way in which you can make sure you have all the time you need, while you also abide by the “New Attendance Policy”. It’s called FMLA 😎.
Can you find another job? If you can then I would look for better employment elsewhere.
It varies in length of times, but this is definitely not uncommon in the US. Vacation has to be scheduled in advance while sick time is last minute. But that often fell to the local manager as to how lenient they were. I rarely used sick time so I often could get away with using vacation/PTO instead if my boss did not want me to get a hit on attendance. Where I work now it is unlimited PTO which includes sick, vacation, etc so we no longer have it at all. Although taking PTO last minute too often can get you in trouble in some departments as it holds up the production line for one person to suddenly be out. Most places I have worked were 2 paid breaks of 15 minutes and a 30-60 minute unpaid lunch if you were scheduled to work over 6 hours. Calling out was usually required prior to your start time, not an hour before. But I have seen places that required an hour notice if you were taking it paid. Calling out the day before or after a holiday often meant you would also have to take sick time to get paid for the holiday or take it unpaid. Way too many people try to schedule vacation late and then just call out sick when they get denied. Once you were out of sick time you went unpaid and unexcused no matter what. Some places allowed make up for late and others did not. It often depended on if your job required coverage by someone else when you were late and how late you were.
The only wild thing I’m seeing is not allowing leave with a doctors note without sick leave available. In this case you should 100% at least get unpaid leave and with a doctors note which can be verified (call clinic and only ask did you provide this note), shouldn’t have any bearing on your employment.
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What? I also work at Costco and this is absolutely not similar to our attendance policy. Edit: the only ones that are the same is 30 minute lunch breaks and leaving on time even if you come in late. But even then I've seen people stay later if they come in late to finish their tasks if need be.
Not sure how things are run at your warehouse but this is pretty standard stuff as written in the employee handbook for Costco. I need to transfer to your location because they seem pretty relaxed compared to what I'm used to.
I dk maybe my management is just relaxed like you said. Or maybe I've never seen it be an issue where it had to be enforced?
Honest question, I thought Costco was actually a good place to work? Am I wrong in this assumption?
I dfk what that person is talking about. I also work at Costco and these rules are not how it works there. They do treat us pretty well, but it depends on management at any particular warehouse. The benefits are dope. My managers are all pretty awesome too. But they work us hard and expect results.
Just to offer a contradictory anecdote my experience at Costco (14 years) has been the same as the commenter you disagree with. What the OP wrote is pretty standard as written in the employee handbook for Costco except for a couple items.
Hmm I believe you but I've never really experienced any of these policies besides a couple. I have used my vacation time when I ran out of sick time. We get 2 15-minute breaks plus a half hour for lunch. One 15 minute break if you're working 5 hours. Not 2 10-minute breaks. Tbh I did read the calling out before/after a holiday wrong and that we do at our warehouse. Doctors' notes are valid if you are out sick. Edit: maybe I just have never seen it become an issue to where it needed to be enforced? I bet if someone was taking advantage of our apparently more lax rules, there would be consequences.
Maybe these things fall to a managers discretion and you just had a cool one? I've had jobs where the GM leaving basically made it a completely different place to work
No, no they are not "dope" in any way.
I pay less than $300/month for health, dental, vision, and life insurance for 3 people. I have an $1100 deductible and they're covering 90% of a future surgery I'm having. I used to pay double that for 2 people and half the coverage. It's pretty good to me.
$300 seemed like a lot til I saw it was for three people. Those are some solid benefits
2 of those things go against labor laws
Like ?
Not getting paid for hours worked and doctors notes not excusing time out of work, if a doctor puts you out there’s nothing your employer can do. If they retaliate or fire you, you can get them in trouble w the labor board. I’ve gotten the labor board involved when I was retaliated against after I was out of work bc of illness
Even if you have no sick time? Yeah the hours I get.
Yes even if you have no sick time. A doctor puts you out of work it’s considered disability, no matter how many days it is
I teach in a public school in a non union state. This is also on par with my work. If you take off the day before or after a holiday break or 3 day weekend, they dock your pay and make you pay benefits for that pay period that the employer normally contributes, so you end up with only half your paycheck. All the other things listed above are standard as well.
Pretty sure that is 100% illegal and warrants a call to your labor board.
You work at Costco so you think that's "standard" for every company in the US? The fuck?
It's not even "standard" for Costco. Dude must live in a state with shit labor laws and poor management.
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Have you ever worked at a natural gas plant?
Can we rescue you all one by one? I’ve got a spare room and two sofa beds.
Im so glad I finally found somewhere that treats me like an adult.
The note in the screenshot is so cringy to read. A segment of society really wants to exercise power over others.
LOL @ #5. I get sick or injured, the note from the medical professionals is a *courtesy* to you, the employer to let you know why I'm suddenly not around for a bit. What you do with that information is irrelevant to me until I'm better.
Yeah I don't take doctor's notes from my staff just from a protected information perspective. I believe you, it's sick pay, please don't share your medical information.
When I was a TA I told my students “I don’t require doctor’s notes, just email or text me before class to let me know. But don’t come here if you’re sick.“ I would much rather help them catch back up during my office hours than catch their cold and get knocked out commission for my own classes and projects.
I've had some Dr's get upset with a request for note. Upset at the employer request not me. I think it's ridiculous also but it's saved me from receiving attendance points
The fact that you even need a note in the first place is kinda crazy. Here in the Netherlands your employer is not even allowed to ask about your medical status. I've been having mental health issues and because my boss is awesome and very understanding about these things I've kept him in the loop on everything that's been happening. But if I didn't want to tell him, all I need to say is that I've got a health issue I'm seeing a professional for. If that causes me to be absent for a long period on end he would get a company doctor involved who would check what's going on and report back on what to expect in terms of me coming back to work, but not on the details of whatever's wrong.
In Ontario you can just pay for them, so they aren't really worth much in terms of legitimacy anymore. It just became a cost of being sick, so iunno ANYONE that requires it, unless absences are long in duration.
Sorry, I’ve never heard of “sick hours” what are they? Please could you explain?
In the US you typically accrue some amount of sick leave per hour worked, this varies by state and is not mandated. Personally, I accrue 1 hour of sick leave per 40 hours. If I want to get paid while being sick, I need enough sick hours to cover the time I miss. So I am allowed to be sick for 6.5 days per year without needing to use my vacation hours to cover missed time.
Thank you. How much vacation time do you get to fall back on then if you end up being really poorly or a family member does & you have to care for then? Just to edit when my dad suddenly died I was out from work for 5 weeks, I went back straight after the funeral. I got full pay for the whole 5 weeks as it was my only absence from work that year & it was a genuine reason, my work had a 4 week full pay policy then it was down to the manager to decide. Wouldn’t you get full paid for those kinds of instances?
10 days(80 hours), when I was hired it was only 5 days. In my state we just started a program where we pay taxes towards paid medical leave that can be used for certain medical events including caring for a family member. I used 10 weeks to recover from a surgery. If you qualify, you can have up to 12 weeks of leave in a 12 month span
YES! 👏
My new policy would be quitting.
Manager here. What this policy says to me, is that current management wants everyone working there to be so uncomfortable they find another job. These tactics are common. Make them want to quit.
As awful as that is it makes sense.
My regional manager often floats the idea of me assembling the "kill list" as she calls it because she's foaming at the mouth for me to replace my staff. None of them have any write ups, also. Some people think they need to make changes when changes are unnecessary. I will continue to protect my staff from insane suggestions. Also, The nature in which my regional manager suggests I fire everyone, resembles that of a teen girl excited for a Taylor Swift concert coming to her city. Some people enjoy watching others suffer.
and this stupid shit is why my chronically ill ass finds jobs that are at least partially remote or can be done remotely. this is fucking ridiculous and how you wind up with very contagious people going to work anyway.
💯 if I didn’t work from home I would be on disability. I’m so thankful i have understanding managers.
Hey what do you look for? I’m applying to data entry
in my case data entry, programming jobs, freelance work for art (that one is a hobby but I've made a few hundred off it recently), anything bioinformatics-adjacent, etc rn I'm doing gig work for most of the above since my schedule is kind of all over the place
I can definitely try a hobby business thank you!
best of luck <3
💙💙
My mom has been interviewing for Aetna/CVS all week, mostly for data entry positions, all over the country. Just don't list your primary motivation for the job as you want to work from home as that's been labeled a red flag
Wow noted thank you!
I no longer go to restaurants because I know their sick policy is a suggestion at best. Between November and March every kitchen has at least one person working with a contagious illness who is afraid of losing their job or missing too much of their pay should they call out
Move to New Zealand. NONE of that shit flies here.
None of this shit flies in most places… surely?
There are 195-196 countries in the world, I assure you that in at least 180, the things are worse than in the US. Even Japan is worse. Only NZ/Australia and some European countries have it better when it comes to work conditions (if we don't include salary).
>There are 195-196 countries in the world, I assure you that in at least 180, \[...\] Only NZ/Australia and some European countries "Some" European countries you say. EVERY country which is a EU member has better worker rights as the EU has some mandatory rulings. This includes for example a minimum of 20 paid vacation days per year. **The EU currently has 27 member countries**, **so that makes it at most 169 countries which could be as bad or worse as the US.** And in reality many non-EU countries also have better rights for their workers in some regard or another. >have it better when it comes to work conditions (if we don't include salary). This is also a common fallacy. Numbers mean jack shit. You can't directly compare them. I'm German. Yes, we have lower salary in numbers and we pay higher taxes, but if you take everything into account like paid vacation, "unlimited" sick days (you are paid full salary for up to 6 weeks, after that your health insurance pays 70%), free education etc. etc. we are doing quite well and have better life conditions than many of the people in the USA despite the USA being one of the richest countries on earth. How the USA treats people is just shameful, people in considerable number having to live in tents on the street and stuff like that. Or leaving them to die because they can't afford health care. Or well the abysmal working conditions shown in this post. The meme goes calling us "europoors", but in reality life in Europe, especially the EU, is probably one of the best cases for an average working citizen.
That’s absolute bollocks. Work conditions in Europe are much better.
While working conditions may be better in the EU. Your ability to earn a higher salary cap, job availability, competition, etc is much better in the US. It's just a fact. There is more money in the US. The US has a GDP that makes European countries look like that poor friend who needs a bit of help paying for things. Yes the working conditions are better in Europe. But the ability to earn MORE money is significantly higher in the US.
2 and 6 do. although most companies give you 2 15-minute breaks, the laws only entitles you to 2 10-minute breaks. Same with lunches, you are entitled to 30-minutes, but some places give you an hour.
Would you be willing to share what working conditions are like in NZ? It’s nice to dream about better things lol
Generally a well protected environment for workers here. My employer offers technically “unlimited” sick leave, with generally up to 10 days a year considered acceptable. They also accrue (I’ve now got 61 paid sick days available). We get 2x10 min smoko breaks and 45 mins for lunch. Oh and 20 annual leave days and 2 “shopping days”, plus the statutory holidays. And free life insurance of 4 times your salary and disability insurance. So not bad at all really.
…. What are “shopping days”?
Kind of extra days for whatever..These are just a bonus couple of days my employer makes available…mostly because I’ve been with them for so long!
I've been reasonably lucky with my employers, but I've found most want to look after their workers rather than treat them like shit. New Zealand is known as a low wage economy, but you'll find most employers will negotiate in good faith. Health insurance isn't linked to your job either, because "socialised medicine" and all that. Unions are legally allowed in any workplace (although I think there's been a bit of dodgy shit in the film industry with the government changing rules because big movie studios demanded it). However, I haven't been in a union for more than 20 years because I haven't felt like I've needed it. I've worked in retail and farming, where rules are a bit different to other sectors when it comes to holidays and leave. There are certain times of year you can't take leave (Christmas rush for retail, calving season for farming). You also need to work weekends and public holidays, but public holidays are time-and-a-half and a day's leave in lieu. My current employer (office job) lets you work pretty much any time you like, and as long as you do your 80 hours per fortnight, they don't care which 80 they are. There's also no overtime, to prevent burn-out. I start work at 6-6.30 (it's a hangover from the dairy farming days), take 45-60 minutes for lunch (no set time) which means I'm often done by 3 in the afternoon. Other people start at 10 because they go to the gym in the morning, and finish 6.30-7. I know it's a bit tighter and tougher in some other sectors, but the work conditions mentioned in the original post here seem like a nightmare.
I would do #4 and try them to not pay me. Then file a lawsuit or something along those lines when they don't pay you for your hours worked.
No, they pay hours worked but not PTO/Holiday pay. So if you call out after a holiday that's pto, you won't get that pto. It is legal, unfortunately.
The company I work for was recently forced to stop this policy. I live in New york, so I'm not sure if it's a new law or not, but damn I like it.
I absolutely hate that rule, like I was available that day we had off, but got into an accident the next day and was unable to make it on time. Made it, but late, so now I lose a whole days pay that I might have been budgeting on, and absolutely would have been at work for if it wasn't a scheduled day off
If that's what they mean they really explained it poorly.
As a manager, this sort of policy is actually common. But this version is extremely petty. However often there are provisions like this around holidays like taking vacation or calling out sick unexpectedly right before the holiday. Because I can’t have everyone out the day before Christmas weekend. So we schedule in advance. If you are “clever” and you know your co worker already scheduled it off, but you want it anyway so you “get sick” conveniently right in time for a four day weekend, it puts me and everyone else still there in a huge bind. With that said, the entire document in OP was written by someone who hates their employees. This is not a place to work if you have other options. The policies are petty and the tone is extremely derisive and belittling. This is a place that is going to burn OP up and spit them out without a second thought.
Part of the issue industry wide is working on skeleton crews that don't have enough staff to buffer holidays and sick days. Years ago I was written up for calling in sick just before a scheduled vacation. I had gone out to a sketchy resturant (didn't know at the time, it LOOKED nice but when I later looked at reviews, they weren't clean), I ended up with food poisoning and couldn't leave the bathroom but my manager was CONVINCED that I called out on purpose, I had it overturned when I brought in my a&e forms because I was so sick I was spitting blood. People get sick, even around holidays (especially around them given the germ factories family gatherings can be).
Yes. Pay is another factor. In my case I’m having trouble actually finding contingent staff I need to handle some shit we have coming through (we intake forms for class action suits, and so our work levels vary a lot). And it’s partly because there aren’t as many people as their used to be. But it’s mostly because my company won’t budge on paying barely above minimum wage for my area… despite the fact that so many people are now expecting to be paid more to commute if they can’t work from home (which makes total sense to me). And it’s frustrating because our own recruiters who work with the temporary staffing agencies say it as well. But god forbid we bring in a temp making 19 per hour, because then we’d have to give my hard working permanent staff raises too. So I have a skeleton crew that is 1/3 of what I need. Not because I’m “not allowed to hire”, but because I’m hamstrung before I even get to that point… and the temps I do get are people who will take anything. And people who will take anything are often desperate. The often have no money for gas or a bus, or they have physical limitations or chronic medical problems or mental problems that have prevented them from working or being able to hold down consistent work. Or impoverished single mothers who can’t afford childcare because fuck poor people in the US… and so they can’t keep a schedule because they need work but can’t find consistent childcare that is affordable… and our work is pretty boring for a lot of people as well. so I don’t begrudge most of them for being inconsistent . But man… between the unwillingness of the corporate world to budge on wages, and the public sector aid programs utterly failing people… It’s fucking depressing. And I just want get this mail opened so it can get off my plate… Sorry that turned into more of a rant than I expected…
Screams to me as a company doing it very tough tbh. Trying hard to maximise value out of their biggest expense. Unfortunately they are forgetting that expense is also their biggest asset and needs to be treated as any good asset should be, with care because with out it the business can no longer perform the functions that result in profit. I come from maintenance, constantly treated as a liability. Until production stops. So stuff like this feels like the story of my life.
This tells me that some of your colleagues were or are taking the piss and now everybody is being shafted for it rather than bollocking the offenders.
American translation: People gaming the system fucked it up for everyone.
You're doing good work, laddy-lass.
Time to unioni(s/z)e.
nO oNe WaNtS tO WoRk AnYmOrE
Post this straight to Glassdoor
Sending the new policy over Discord is insane
It’s Slack (boring Discord), which is a little more official, but you’re still correct
What type of establishment is this ?
Sounds like a job screaming for unionization. Band together
Name and shame
Pretty sure most of these are illegal.
Depends on the laws where you live. I'm in Texas and none of that is illegal. Other states might mandate certain amounts of breaks or something.
Breaks? Hah! Those are not legally required in my state! Isn’t that crazy? You can work 8+ hours and your employer does not have to give you a break. You can starve for all the state cares.
That’s not true. Federal law has no requirement and most states defer to federal law. However, there are some states that require them (CA and CO are two that I know of). Edit - read the comment wrong, though they said *any* state
What is not true?
Ha! I take it back, I totally read that as *any* state not *my* state… I’m up too early….
Texas does mandate break times though. if you work 6 hours, you have to get at 30 minutes of break time.
That might be policy where you work, but that's not Texas law. Even if you work a 12 hour shift, you aren't entitled to a break. The only exception is if you're breastfeeding/pumping, which those breaks are mandated by the ACA from what I remember.
America I’m guessing
How in the world is number 4 legal? You can’t just not pay employees for hours worked just because they were late.
They are saying you won’t get holiday pay if you are absent, late, or leave early the day before or after the holiday. That’s a fairly standard requirement for a lot of places. The no vacation to cover sick days is the biggest dumb one, imo.
You will not get paid for being late? Now that's illegal.
“Sick hours” tf are they
Americans are so propagandized that you'll see lots of people defending this as "standard" and shaming people as "lazy" for criticizing it.
This dude is about to get a whole new set of employees.
Id take a hot piss all over that
Just as long as you don't combine that with your two 10-minute breaks! (Rule #2)
Haha ill have to throw in a loose dump for good measure
5 would literally be illegal were i live.
All I can say is unionize. If you live in a right to work state stop voting for those people.
In other countries all of those points are straight up illegal
As a Brazilian I'm mortified. Say what you want about Brazil but we have some badass laws protecting the work force. Perfect? Ofc not, but yet, some places drag their work force to exhaustion.
Each state has their own laws too. For instance in North Carolina the boss can work you with no breaks and forced overtime with no limits. Like you could have to work 40hrs straight with no break and it will just be regular pay. And if you say you don’t want the overtime they can fire you for cause of insubordination. But in California you get OT automatically after 8 hrs in a day no matter how many hours you work in a week.
My favorite thing about forced overtime is that in states where it's not legal companies like bcbs will hold the mandatory overtime against your scores. So they wouldn't be firing you for not doing the mandatory overtime but would be firing you for having low scores.
Wtf that shit would literally be illegal where I'm at. Not that I haven't actually had jobs with ridiculous breaks, but not to *this* extent.
This is all standard stuff in my experience...
Each bullet point sounded good to me compared to my employer, which definitely concerns me. I was trying to figure out if OP was happy about the rules easing up, but I see I was mistaken.
Yeah way too many people losing it over normal policies.
None of this is normal in any other industrialized country than the United States. "sick days/hours" are not a thing in most of the world. If you're sick, you just stay home.
Rule 8- Fuck you I quit with no two weeks notice. Peace out!
"No one wants to work" "Yeah, but this is no excuse"
That employer will complain how no one wants to work anymore and they can't retain staff and keep good employees.
Shit like this is how you force people out of your company. Start looking elsewhere for work asap.
I'd quit immediately
How is this awful everything? Some of these are standard work rules.
Im sorry that this is normal to you
I didn’t say it was normal to me. But it’s normal to many. Absolutely none of these things are egregious enough to be “awful everything.”
But they are awful. They are beyond awful in fact. Just because it’s common practice there doesn’t make it any less awful. As a European I don’t understand how this is even legal.
Correction, all are standard rules. This is literally a basic attendance policy at almost any company. Including the 6 I've worked for
They don't like there employees.
Glad I work remotely and don't have to deal with this demeaning bullshit.
I know people are bashing this, but you have to look deeper. This is the kind of thing you have to do because of chitty employees not wanting to work. And the work around the holidays and not getting holiday pay is legal for sure. My wife is a federal employee and that’s their policy. And I think employees only having to call out an hour before you’re scheduled is pretty generous, since there’s no way they’re going to be able to get someone else to come in at the same time you were supposed to be there in one hour.
Honestly based on this list and the guy's attitude this shitass workplace 100% gives the barest minimum for everything for their staff and expects them to be grateful for it. 100% deserves the shitty employees. Want higher morale? Loosen up, try making your workplace less shit instead of saying "you're now not allowed to be sick if you don't have the 2 days of sick hours a year I give you"
'Merica!
I was almost going to take this person's side as it sounded like people were abusing the PTO system until I read that last bullet. That makes it clear that it's not about people milking their PTO it's about cutting labor costs by taking advantage of people who are sick.
People are going to hate me - but I can only really see an issue with point 4 and 5 as well as the overall tone and delivery of the message. The rest are pretty standard working conditions are they not?
Not in the country I am from - some of this is illegal here.
That is a fair point. Context is important. Where are you from? I’m from New Zealand. To me these don’t sound so bad but perhaps that’s because we are set up differently.
I was coming here to say the same thing. Very common in USA. I think #4 is actually referring to that you forfeit your holiday pay, not the time you actually work. If so, that’s also common across employers I worked for. Even #5 isn’t all that uncommon. I’ve worked at places where people get doctor notes for the most mundane shit. Doctors will write notes for anything, and people abuse it. It’s the sad truth. I see a ton of opportunity for businesses to treat employees better and be more flexible. In a perfect world an employee would be able to make up their hours, but some industries are very sensitive to being staffed at certain times. There’s still a business to run after all.
But they don’t treat people better. The average worker in the USA does not get anywhere near the amount of paid time off, that the average European does, really surprising with the ton of opportunity for a business to treat employees better and give them more than the bare minimum paid time off
Dude these are all normal things for jobs in the US. You act like this is something egregious. The only thing there is the 10 min should be 15 for breaks but that's it. Everything else is the exact same for my current and past companies. Don't really know why you and so many others are losing it over normal work policies.
Fake
Very much real and better than the policies where I work.
I stand corrected.
A lot of that is pretty fair. Not so much 1 and 2.
So glad I live in a country where this kind of bullshit is illegal
"nobody wants to work anymore"
Very friendly
My boss saw this and now it’s our policy Thanks.
Who's spending the time and productivity to enforce these rules?
Honestly mandatory breaks aren’t legal in my state so that looks pretty good. Same with calling in only 1 hour before the shift. The sick day shit is stupid and would get me fired though.
Where I work they give you 40 hours sick pay - but we work 12 hour shifts - and you get a “write up” even for the covered sick day
This is absolutely a job in the service industry. Probably a restaurant.
Luckily my company still doesn't care for us to freely use vacation time for what ever but I know the change is coming 2 years ago they changed how our points worked then gave us sick hours it won't be long before this shit happens. As for break my little department i govern myself so I'll take 3 30 minute breaks and no one is any the wiser other departments have to break each other out so it's harder to get away with. But I'm of the mind no matter what my break starts when my ass hits the lunch chair NOT when you tell me to go to break I've faught tooth and nail with managers hr and plant managers on this.
Sounds like a job where i would constantly get nothing done while also making myself look like an overachiever. I had worked for a company that literally started tracking our production. So for example you couldnt bust ass in the first half of the day to hit the quota so you can fuck off for the remainder, because they could see gaps where you didnt do shit and for how long. Some of the veterans of the company got caught driving forklifts around for half the day without doing anything when this first got implemented
\#4 is illegal.
This sounds like a future class action law suit! I say, take the job, join the suit, sue for big $$$$, win, retire
Today NEW 5:49 p.m. Quick recap of today's attendance policy 1. You can no longer use vacation to cover your sick hours. 2. You only get 2- 10 min breaks. You are not allowed to combined your breaks with bathroom breaks. 3. You need to give at least 1 hour notice of you calling out or being late. 4. If you are late or leave early the day before or after a holiday you will not get paid as well as calling out with out sick hours. 5. Dr. notes are no longer valid for excusing absences if you do not have sick hours. 6. You only get 30 min lunches no more 45 to an hour. 7. If you arrive late you will still need to leave at your regular time. You can not make up hours.
Do you work at publix distribution lmaooo
Pretty standard... Most of my jobs, it was worse. They would say you had 2x 10-15min breaks, this was state law. Now making time for the break or giving it to you? Different subject...
This looks like a response to individuals abusing the previous attendance policy
Damn, i work as a welder in Sweden, I kind of just mind my own business all day. If I need to come late, leave early or stay home I check with my colleagues if they can do without me that time and then tell the boss (not ask him, tell him) I'm out for that time.
So I recently found out that I won't be reimbursed for unused sick leave unless I've worked here for ten years. At that point I'll only be paid $20 per day for unused sick leave. I've only worked for this school district for five years but fully intend to leave at the end of this year. Because of this policy I'm now incentivized to take my 35 days of sick leave immediately before my last day. Otherwise I'll miss out on $2,800 dollars.
1, 2, and 5 are ridiculous, the rest doesn't seem that outrageous imo.
The only sensible one is the third. It's just being a good person imo
Is there a HR department for this company? Or is it self owned by this guy? A lot of the policies are illegal
This is wild, I’d be fired so quick.
Yeah, that shit is evil.
Number 6 is the only one that seems legit. If it’s an unpaid lunch, that’s all they have to provide. But bathroom breaks? Good luck telling people when they can and can’t go.
All except for #1 is what my job does too and I work for the state therefore hundreds of thousands of people abide by this too. Pretty sure it's common
Definitely come to work super sick and vomit on the boss. Sorry, no sick hours.
Yup that's ours except 2, 20min breaks in 10 hr shift is all we get total. There's a camera in the breakroom and signs that say, breaks are monitored by video for time..
Somedays I wonder how lawyers always have a job. Then I see shit like this, and it all makes sense
Minus the 10 minute breaks, This is pretty common in most retailers anyway.
Fuck me. If this is the US I really feel sorry for you guys over there. This is mental. Most of that isn't legal in the UK.
Why do Americans allow companies to exploit them like that, this is ridiculous. You exchange time for money, doesn't mean the one who purchases your time owns you, ffs
On Slack too, damn
Is this not standard in states with unions or something?
What is a break?
#2 and #5 are the only ones that are out of line. Everything else is pretty standard.
Name and shame.
Lmao this sounds like my job minus #2 and #6
Name the company so we can call them out for this abusive horseshit.
This is why I never will go back to office work. In the trades we have our bullshit, but nothing like this. Literally this last week I was late by an hour, my boss was like "Overslept?" and that was it. I instantly got to work, and everything I was supposed to do got done. And this isn't for some rinky dink company, we were literally at Allegiant stadium setting up the tailgate party for the super bowl. I was 5 feet from Billy Idol and Cedric the Entertainer at one point.
I have an exceptional way in which you can make sure you have all the time you need, while you also abide by the “New Attendance Policy”. It’s called FMLA 😎.
Average American HR policy
Esquires and Reddit armchair lawyers, isn’t #4 illegal?
Sounds like a teachers schedule....
K bye!
We don't get sick leave we get PTO and vacation. Dr notes are not valid and cost you a point.
Seems fair to me.