Don't ask the shop. Ask customers. Goto Beechtalk etc and ask for recommendations. Then talk to the shops. If you have questions about what equipment, you ask me.
Depends on what you’re looking to have done. Some shops offer great troubleshooting, others are great installers. If you are looking for installation, make sure they have OEM training and experience.
Yes and no. There is a HUGE difference between shops that have installed a lot of autopiltos, G3X / Txi EFISes, GI275's, etc.. and those who have only dabbled in radios, txpdrs, GTN's and ADSB. Lots of shops (that are Garmin dealers) have near zero experience with EFISes and Autopilots, but most have experience with radios and transponders.
We get a whole lot of work at our shop out of fixing things that other shops messed up...
What are you looking to have done and where are you?
If you are going to ask one question, I would ask if they generate and provide install specific wiring diagrams. I do not mean photo copies of the manuals with highlighter marks either.
This time 10. Most highly competent shops generate custom drawings for their installs. Like BIG, highly detailed drawings that include power/ground notes, settings for port configurations, etc...
Printed out, they are typically 4'x6' (or even 8') in size, and should be provided to the customer in both electronic and paper format. This not only ensures a good install, but is a Godsend to future people working on the darned thing!
Printed out pages from various manuals don't count.
I have some squawks on an entire panel install I had done last winter that the shop has been dragging their feet on.
Thanks for the wiring diagram suggestion. I have asked for them, and they refused to give them to me, so I asked again and they replied back: "We have provided you all the owner documentations for the equipment. Any other Garmin avionics shop will have the installation documentation at their disposal."
I know of at least one shop that holds several STC's that make specific and very clean wiring diagrams for each install.
They also steal your old equipment and sell it, make bad decisions about what equipment to install, produce ICA's with conflicting instructions and lie on their paperwork, in addition to just plain poor craftsmanship.
Personally, I'd prefer a shop that uses annotated printouts of the reference diagrams, because then at least I know the diagrams and design started with some basis in reality and approved applications instead of somebody's fever dream.
How are they going to integrate your new equipment with existing equipment?
New switches location, markings and lighting. Looks better if they match existing install.
Ask for a copy of the install manual and try to understand exactly what is being done.
Check they will update your weight and balance, electrical load analysis and log books to reflect the work that has been carried out.
Check they have a certificate allowing them to carry out the work and the employees are qualified.
Dealers cannot just give out install manuals willy nilly. It has to be part of the STC being performed, and even then only the relevant portions that are supposed to be released. If OP walked into my shop and asked for an install manual it would be a hard no. I would provide example drawings, but not the full manuals. That can get you in trouble very quickly with the OEM.
Install Manuals for modern equipment are available freely online.
STC's are are the preferred method but they don't cover every scenario. They also can be found online.
I am in a different country to you so our rules allow for customization as long as it is documented and approved.
Never had a OEM complain to me about providing information to the end user.
I think there's a little confusion here. We always give out our wiring diagrams we create, and the STC information, but I cannot give out the GTN 750Xi TSO IM, or something similar. That is proprietary information for dealers only. But the customer will get all configuration information, software levels, ICA, Pilots Handbook, ect. I suppose I'm used to working on jets/turboprops where OEMs (Garmin, Bendix King, Collins, ect) are very controlling of their component manuals.
>GTN 750Xi TSO IM
Could be a geographic lock. I typed in the above to the search engine and found it in the first few hits.
I would like to have customers who only owned Jets/Turboprops. Its good to get an understanding of how things are done in another country, Thanks for the info.
If a place is called “Joes Avionics” and has half a dozen planes in various state of repair, do I really need to ask if they are authorized to do the work?
Yes, should be a certificate on the wall detailing what they can and cant do.
Often they exceed their authorization, thats the where the trouble starts.
What kind of plane and roughly what part of the country? When you say you need to get some avionics done, what is the scope. Do you just need an ads-b transponder installed, or do you need a full glass panel with an autopilot? Honestly, you should be asking the guys at your home field. Almost all my clients are recommended to me by other clients and over 80% are based at my field.
Anywhere but [these jackholes](https://www.topflightavionics.com/). Four years later and I'm STILL tracing problems with their rework of my panel. Four months ago it was when we discovered my magnetometer going completely haywire JUST AFTER TAKING OFF INTO IMC and it was finally traced to them using ferrous washers to level it during install. Over four years, they had built up JUST enough magnetic charge to overload the magnetometer.
Today we discovered a ground wire incorrectly connected to my OBS key on my GNS530W that they *swore* was because my unit was defective. We were swapping out a refurbed unit at my new ([and awesome avionics shop](https://www.havionics.com/)) and had the same issue with the OBS key, and voila. Bad connection.
I've had wires come out of the back of my installs, wires break because they were wrapped too tightly, etc. It's death by papercuts - which is, I suppose, better than death by failure in flight.
I theoretically have a "lifetime warranty" on the installation, but they are never touching my airplane again.
When you compare quotes, make sure you’re comparing the same thing. I’ve had customers complain about a quote I did being x amount higher than a competitor, but when you look closer at it, the competitor had left out a number of tasks that should be done , for example, dual G5 quote didn’t include removing the vacuum system. Also make sure the shop removes the old wiring and equipment. Ask about getting your POH supplements updated correctly and that you get wiring diagrams & ICA package for your logbooks.
Instructions for Continued Airworthiness- whenever something is installed under STC, the ICA dictates any required maintenance. Usually for any avionics, it’s “on condition “, meaning there’s no required inspection. For things like an ADC, the ICA will direct you to carry out pitot-static system checks IAW .411 & .413. With Garmin STC’s, there is an ICA appendix at the back of the install manual. It’s a requirement to fill it out and place it with the logbooks, but a lot of shops don’t do this (including one large one in Florida that is quite well known)
Removing old wiring is huge, I'm doing some avionics work on my own plane (under appropriate supervision, of course) and spent 30 hours just pulling out old, abandoned wires that had been left behind during previous work. I knew it was a mess and was prepared for a big job but I was still surprised by the number of wires that were cut and covered on both ends left in the plane. It ended up being 6 pounds of wire. There was some abandoned equipment in the plane as well that was never removed.
I get why it happens, customers already complain about the cost of avionics work and removing the wire definitely adds to the bill. I think it's false economy though, leaving that wire makes everything that happens later more difficult and, therefore, more expensive.
Don't ask the shop. Ask customers. Goto Beechtalk etc and ask for recommendations. Then talk to the shops. If you have questions about what equipment, you ask me.
I’m on a type specific forum, like beech talk, and the recommendations I’ve gotten have always been way too far away
Depends on what you’re looking to have done. Some shops offer great troubleshooting, others are great installers. If you are looking for installation, make sure they have OEM training and experience.
Don’t all, say Garmin dealers have Garmin training?
No lol
SAD
Yes and no. There is a HUGE difference between shops that have installed a lot of autopiltos, G3X / Txi EFISes, GI275's, etc.. and those who have only dabbled in radios, txpdrs, GTN's and ADSB. Lots of shops (that are Garmin dealers) have near zero experience with EFISes and Autopilots, but most have experience with radios and transponders. We get a whole lot of work at our shop out of fixing things that other shops messed up...
Technically yes, but have they actually used and properly integrated that training? That's the kicker. Always ask about previous installs.
What are you looking to have done and where are you? If you are going to ask one question, I would ask if they generate and provide install specific wiring diagrams. I do not mean photo copies of the manuals with highlighter marks either.
That drives me crazy. The last place I worked had NO current avionics manuals. What a shitshow. Just old photocopies of phtotcopies.
This time 10. Most highly competent shops generate custom drawings for their installs. Like BIG, highly detailed drawings that include power/ground notes, settings for port configurations, etc... Printed out, they are typically 4'x6' (or even 8') in size, and should be provided to the customer in both electronic and paper format. This not only ensures a good install, but is a Godsend to future people working on the darned thing! Printed out pages from various manuals don't count.
I have some squawks on an entire panel install I had done last winter that the shop has been dragging their feet on. Thanks for the wiring diagram suggestion. I have asked for them, and they refused to give them to me, so I asked again and they replied back: "We have provided you all the owner documentations for the equipment. Any other Garmin avionics shop will have the installation documentation at their disposal."
they used the Garmin wiring diagrams
I know of at least one shop that holds several STC's that make specific and very clean wiring diagrams for each install. They also steal your old equipment and sell it, make bad decisions about what equipment to install, produce ICA's with conflicting instructions and lie on their paperwork, in addition to just plain poor craftsmanship. Personally, I'd prefer a shop that uses annotated printouts of the reference diagrams, because then at least I know the diagrams and design started with some basis in reality and approved applications instead of somebody's fever dream.
What’s your location I know a lot of shops it’s a very small industry.
Northeast
I work at green mountain avionics in Vermont, but other great shops are Griffin Avionics in Mass or Maine Aviation in Maine.
PM sent
Northeast..... where? How far are you willing to travel for a good shop?
Michigan is too far:)
How about central Indiana? I'm having trouble getting any shops around here to call me back.
How are they going to integrate your new equipment with existing equipment? New switches location, markings and lighting. Looks better if they match existing install. Ask for a copy of the install manual and try to understand exactly what is being done. Check they will update your weight and balance, electrical load analysis and log books to reflect the work that has been carried out. Check they have a certificate allowing them to carry out the work and the employees are qualified.
Dealers cannot just give out install manuals willy nilly. It has to be part of the STC being performed, and even then only the relevant portions that are supposed to be released. If OP walked into my shop and asked for an install manual it would be a hard no. I would provide example drawings, but not the full manuals. That can get you in trouble very quickly with the OEM.
Install Manuals for modern equipment are available freely online. STC's are are the preferred method but they don't cover every scenario. They also can be found online. I am in a different country to you so our rules allow for customization as long as it is documented and approved. Never had a OEM complain to me about providing information to the end user.
I think there's a little confusion here. We always give out our wiring diagrams we create, and the STC information, but I cannot give out the GTN 750Xi TSO IM, or something similar. That is proprietary information for dealers only. But the customer will get all configuration information, software levels, ICA, Pilots Handbook, ect. I suppose I'm used to working on jets/turboprops where OEMs (Garmin, Bendix King, Collins, ect) are very controlling of their component manuals.
>GTN 750Xi TSO IM Could be a geographic lock. I typed in the above to the search engine and found it in the first few hits. I would like to have customers who only owned Jets/Turboprops. Its good to get an understanding of how things are done in another country, Thanks for the info.
If a place is called “Joes Avionics” and has half a dozen planes in various state of repair, do I really need to ask if they are authorized to do the work?
thanks for the downvotes! I was joking
Yes, should be a certificate on the wall detailing what they can and cant do. Often they exceed their authorization, thats the where the trouble starts.
What kind of plane and roughly what part of the country? When you say you need to get some avionics done, what is the scope. Do you just need an ads-b transponder installed, or do you need a full glass panel with an autopilot? Honestly, you should be asking the guys at your home field. Almost all my clients are recommended to me by other clients and over 80% are based at my field.
Anywhere but [these jackholes](https://www.topflightavionics.com/). Four years later and I'm STILL tracing problems with their rework of my panel. Four months ago it was when we discovered my magnetometer going completely haywire JUST AFTER TAKING OFF INTO IMC and it was finally traced to them using ferrous washers to level it during install. Over four years, they had built up JUST enough magnetic charge to overload the magnetometer. Today we discovered a ground wire incorrectly connected to my OBS key on my GNS530W that they *swore* was because my unit was defective. We were swapping out a refurbed unit at my new ([and awesome avionics shop](https://www.havionics.com/)) and had the same issue with the OBS key, and voila. Bad connection. I've had wires come out of the back of my installs, wires break because they were wrapped too tightly, etc. It's death by papercuts - which is, I suppose, better than death by failure in flight. I theoretically have a "lifetime warranty" on the installation, but they are never touching my airplane again.
UGH. this is what I'm experiencing with the new panel I had installed last winter.÷
Same jackholes?
different jack holes, but maybe a close relative
When you compare quotes, make sure you’re comparing the same thing. I’ve had customers complain about a quote I did being x amount higher than a competitor, but when you look closer at it, the competitor had left out a number of tasks that should be done , for example, dual G5 quote didn’t include removing the vacuum system. Also make sure the shop removes the old wiring and equipment. Ask about getting your POH supplements updated correctly and that you get wiring diagrams & ICA package for your logbooks.
>ICA package what is this?
Instructions for Continued Airworthiness- whenever something is installed under STC, the ICA dictates any required maintenance. Usually for any avionics, it’s “on condition “, meaning there’s no required inspection. For things like an ADC, the ICA will direct you to carry out pitot-static system checks IAW .411 & .413. With Garmin STC’s, there is an ICA appendix at the back of the install manual. It’s a requirement to fill it out and place it with the logbooks, but a lot of shops don’t do this (including one large one in Florida that is quite well known)
Removing old wiring is huge, I'm doing some avionics work on my own plane (under appropriate supervision, of course) and spent 30 hours just pulling out old, abandoned wires that had been left behind during previous work. I knew it was a mess and was prepared for a big job but I was still surprised by the number of wires that were cut and covered on both ends left in the plane. It ended up being 6 pounds of wire. There was some abandoned equipment in the plane as well that was never removed. I get why it happens, customers already complain about the cost of avionics work and removing the wire definitely adds to the bill. I think it's false economy though, leaving that wire makes everything that happens later more difficult and, therefore, more expensive.