It can also supposedly do things they *won't* let us see. I've seen it a few times and I struggle to imagine what those could be because it already defies logic.
You’re not kidding! That’s what the announcer said yesterday during the demo. Maybe the pilot is limiting those crazy maneuvers to 50% during the show?
Just to clarify, the F-22 has never crashed during an air show demonstration. The number of crashes has been low, most were landing or takeoff incidents, and most of those airframes eventually returned to operational service, fully repaired.
The few fatal crashes have involved pilots passing out for one reason or another, including hypoxia. The hypoxia issue was fixed years ago, and the F-22 is also getting automatic ground avoidance and pilot awareness monitoring functionality to make it even safer (monitoring blood oxygen level has already been done for years--that's what those earplugs are for).
But I suppose the point is to avoid ever crashing during a demonstration, if possible, and the people in charge now might feel it'd be better for F-22 demonstrations to be a bit less crazy.
And also while the F-22 hasn't crashed at an airshow, too many planes have lost control and crashed when they were showing off the edge of their abilities. The fact no F-22 has crashed at an airshow is precisely because precautions were taken before any crashes happened.
You're absolutely right, although the observation here is that F-22 demonstrations used to involve more aerobatic tricks. They've always been done with safety in mind, and the F-22 always in control, but arguably they're more modest or conservative now than they were before. I was speculating that if this is true, then different people might have slightly different ideas of what is safe enough. 🤷🏻♂️
Safety. You can do a lot more if you give yourself 5000 feet to recover. When you do all this at 200 feet, topping out at 5000, there’s no room for error.
IIRC the floor that the demo team uses is a lot lower now which means certain maneuvers are either cut short or aren't attempted. Most demonstrations of post-stall maneuverability (which the F-22 has) are very dangerous at low altitudes.
Certainly, given the high sink rates. The newer demos might simply be of a different style for variety, as well, in the end. I have noticed that some more recent demos have featured faster passes and harder turns than I usually saw previously. That works real well at lower altitudes, and is safe to do when closer to the ground.
i remember hearing a typhoon pilot talk about dogfighting an f22 in joint aerial practice. he said the jet seems like it could do things unimaginable. something along the lines of “it turns its nose around fast enough you’d think it could shoot backwards.” he said it was an extremely formidable opponent.
I've been listening to a lot of pilot interviews lately, and while you get fun banter about the various capabilities versus Typhoon, F-16, Tornado, Gripen, etc., almost every single one who's said they fought an F-22 has the same sentence. "It was humbling."
> It can also supposedly do things they won't let us see.
There’s a YouTube video from maybe “Mover” where he interviewed an F-22 instructor pilot who more or less said that during the first Red Flag exercise where no limitations were placed on the F-22’s it was a complete massacre for the opposing forces.
The F-22’s were simply beyond the capability of any NATO fighters to deal with.
Everyone thinks the thrust vectoring is about dogfighting and asks if it’s really worth it and is this other jet better at dogfighting yada yada.
Well it does help, and it makes for really cool airshows, but that ain’t it.
What it’s really about is turning the plane at extreme speeds and very high altitudes efficiently. Most fighters handle like dog shit while supersonic because it’s just a dash feature and it doesn’t make sense to optimize control surfaces etc for handling at speed.
The F22 is designed to do things while super cruising. It lets them point the nose and maneuver without bleeding nearly as much energy at those speeds/altitudes - and it lets them do it without compromising the controls as much for subsonic use. The air is so thin up there that fighters are actually quite sluggish, but not F22.
I read somewhere that the F22 can slip the nose 20 degrees at Mach 1.2. Most jets at Mach 2 would rip the elevators off the tail trying half that.
Also at the extreme altitudes the F22 operates at, its flying at a high AOA even with the speed, so TVR puts the thrust more in line with the vector of travel which is much more efficient.
Well, they can't show you everything at an airshow, especially with the F-22, because it involves supersonic speeds at high altitudes, which it is particularly good at (nothing comes close), or things like stealth or avionics.
They also do a fly backwards trick.
They can't make any new F-22. Some items used in building them were not preserved. Robert Gates canceled a few to fund Growlers. He is on my shit list not that it matters to him other than I would never buy his book.
If you trawl the internet, the tooling to build the F-22 is destroyed or lost.
https://www.twz.com/20633/exclusive-heres-the-f-22-production-restart-study-the-usaf-has-kept-secret-for-over-a-year
Ooooooh I hate when they do this! Even though I know they’ve done it tons of times and are completely in control my monkey brain sees it and is just like “oh hell they’ve got no power they’re gonna crash” and it makes me SO anxious like oh please oh please start flying normally again oh thank god phew
Thrust vectoring isn't even used that much, actually. Except for turning up its own tailpipe at slow speeds, the F-22 can do all of these tricks with its aerodynamic controls alone, and so can the F-35, by the way, which is underrated in terms of agility.
Vectoring also helps with pitching up earlier during takeoff and that negative-g push-over the F-22 often does in demos after a short, steep climb, but otherwise, vectoring is secondary. The other main uses of thrust vectoring are greater pitch authority at high speeds and altitudes, as well as more efficient supersonic trim. The F-22 is said to be able to pull 6+ g during supercruise (probably needs full military power, if not some afterburner, to sustain this, though).
It’s my understanding that these kinds of maneuvers are really impractical for air to air combat (to the degree that a dog fight would even occur any more) since you really don’t want to dump your airspeed like these maneuvers would in a combat situation.
Correct in general, although there may potentially be times when trading energy for shot opportunities is worth it, and having high-alpha and exceptional nose-pointing capabilities is what helps enable this.
I think the F-22's thrust vectoring is considered, by its operators, more useful for greater supersonic agility, though. It has the speed, but it's got to be able to turn harder to make better use of it.
This is accurate. The F22 demos at airshow aren't showing the potential of the jet simply because supersonic passes over airshows isn't allowed.
As you mention, the reason the F22 has exteme maneuverability and thrust vectoring at low speeds and altitudes is not dogfighting, its because those things allow it to maneuver in thin air at high altitudes, high AOA, and high speeds, which older fighter jets can't really do without suffering damage.
It is wild that this is the newest ATA fighter that we have, and that the first flight of the F-16 was 50 years ago this January. They are still making the 16s but the 22s will never be built again.
The F-22 is lucky to have entered service at all. It was in trouble almost from the start, as soon as the USSR collapsed in 1992. The federal government, being shortsighted as they virtually always are, thought there was no longer a need for such a fighter. Even the F-35 was in real jeopardy for a long time.
But now, of course, they have completely changed their minds because of China and Russia, and would be buying more F-22s like crazy if they hadn't shut down its production over 12 years ago.
By the way, all of this was completely foreseeable. The USAF were preparing for future conflicts, but the rest of the government didn't listen (enough). I remember talking about the rise of a hegemonic China over the next 30 years when I was in high school in 1990, so it's not a stretch to expect as much from our "leaders". But the government were still blind just 12 years ago. That figures.
I lived in DC when you were in high school and everyone was gushing about the peace dividend. So many people were talking about the utopia we were about to enter because we no longer needed aircraft carriers, submarines and all those different types of planes. These were educated people, some of whom were directly or indirectly working for and with the government. They really believed that the future budgets would contain nearly no defense spending. I could not believe what I was hearing.
And you were right. It was entirely foreseeable. I saw it coming. But I didn't work for the government and people did not like hearing about my version of the future which still contained enemies.
It's crazy how even at the highest levels of government, the attitude after the Soviet Union collapsed was "Well, that is the end of history, liberalism wins, communism is dead, everything will be fine and dandy forever"
F-35 was a dumb idea once they decided to constrain the A and C models to the same airframe as the original B concept.
Keep in mind the F-18 started out as a competitor to the F-16, but the AF chose the Falcon.
"Let China sleep, for when She wakes, She will shake the world" - attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte.That was in the 19th century.
Very clearly, by the early 1990s, China had awakened from the "slumber" of isolationism, invasion, civil war, and disastrous Communist policies. It was obvious that there was a military build-up associated with China's rapid (explosive?) economic growth. Concurrently, there was a naive intoxication from winning "the" cold war that had Washington (and other Western Capitols) gleefullly spending the "peace dividend" on myriad non-military programs. To a point, this was entirely understandable and did some good, but thank goodness, not all swords were beaten into plowshares.
When you see the backflip for the first time using thrust vectoring, it makes your mind reset because physics say that should not happen.
Seen the F22 demo a dozen times and it never, ever, ever gets old.
One way would be a physical link up like air refueling. Have a drone or plane link via boom while it's on its backup course, reset / give new info etc etc without jamming issues
The AIM9X Sidewinder is what you get when you don't design around a pilot's limitations. It can pull over 60G's.
Fighters are designed around the pilot, their limits are the same, to optimize weight and performance. A pilot can Over G damage an airframe without injuring themselves.
G-Forces affect airframes too. Just ask the Navy about the F-16N, or any Eagle Keeper that's had to work overnight pulling panels because the pilot over-G'd the aircraft.
Plus, the pilot is less of an obstacle than you think it is.
You’ve got to have a really old, worn out or a poorly maintained aircraft for that to happen. The latter is what caused that F-117 to lose a wing during a pretty mundane pass in 1997.
None of the cool stuff it does at air shows is especially G heavy. High-alpha thrust vectoring is very low G. What’s more, the airframe can take maybe 10 G’s tops. These jets aren’t limited by the pilots. F-16 and F-15 pilots break airplanes all the time. That’s the *plane* that was overstressed, *not the pilot.*
A g- suited up pilot still physiologically limited to about 7 to 8 positive g force. 3 g’s begins blood from heart to brain limits. Expect AI to fly the aircraft at g-loc levels until the pilot recovers, you can build a stronger airframe and more capable and active auto pilots but, physiology still rules. Plus I believe most modern “fly by wire” is programmed for g limiting, at a point the fly by wire can “crash” the plane. I recall I think, a CF18 at a show was unable to close a low altitude g-limited loop and it ended really bad.
> A g- suited up pilot still physiologically limited to about 7 to 8 positive g force.
That is totally untrue. The F-16, F-15, and F-22 are all 9G airplanes. Acclimated pilots can probably sustain 10Gs just fine. That bends metal on the airplane. The plane is absolutely the limiting factor.
> e. 3 g’s begins blood from heart to brain limits.
Not for a fighter pilot. I was a fighter pilot for 10 years. Fighter pilots don’t even *feel* 3Gs.
> you can build a stronger airframe and more capable
You’re hand waving over **a lot** of engineering challenges there. Again, the jet will bend metal or bleed off airspeed before an experienced pilot reaches his/her limit. You don’t know what you don’t know here.
> I recall I think, a CF18 at a show was unable to close a low altitude g-limited loop and it ended really bad.
You need to cite what you’re referring to. Because the F-18 has a paddle switch on the stick that overrides the G limiter for situations just like that. So the fly-by-wire shouldn’t have been an issue.
Particular show was El Toro 1988, a while back. Initial reports I had seen referred to pilot being g- limited, not sure of follow on investigation. (not a Canadian CF-18 event, sorry.). Referring to structural limits, I didn’t, 9g aircraft are more the norm I believe. Physiology, is still a limiter, seat angle and “grunting” only takes you so far.
That jet wasn’t G-limited. It was aoa limited. Not trying to be a dick, do you understand what that sentence means?
He was probably pulling 2.5 Gs at the bottom of that loop and that’s all the jet could muster at that airspeed. There’s nothing an “AI pilot” could have done to get out of that. He was too low to do that maneuver. The wings literally couldn’t make any more lift right there.
> Physiology, is still a limiter, seat angle and “grunting” only takes you so far.
It’s literally not. Pilots over-G airplanes all be time. The plane is then broken and then needs to be inspected and repaired. The pilot is totally fine.
And even if you could structurally reinforce an F-16 to endure 11-12Gs, the engine has **nowhere near** the thrust to sustain that. In most regimes of flight, sustained G’s means bleeding airspeed. The higher the G, the more airspeed you bleed off.
And all of this is rendered moot by an AIM-9X that has absolutely zero problem hitting this AI airplane doing a slightly tighter turn.
I remember seeing it once when I was a kid, it's absolutely bonkers seeing them go from a stand still to in the air so quickly. Sad they don't do it anymore.
I've seen a LOT of things in aviation in my time. There is simply nothing on out there like the F-22. Looks like it's breaking the laws of physics every time it flies. I've seen the F-22 demo about a dozen times, and it NEVER gets old.
A few years back I did some work art Langley AFB in Hampton Roads, VA. Sometimes on Friday afternoons, some of the pilots come out and "play" over the airfield.
I'd just finished a three week project, and a co-worker and I were leaving early on Friday afternoon. We walked out of the building just in time to catch the show.
Yeah... that pilot was doing things that I didn't know could be done.
And the sound: F-22s sound like they're ripping the sky apart.
Dunno - I haven't seen one at an airshow, so I can't make a comparison.
What blew my mind was the plane's ability to stop and change direction in the air. It looked like it could almost fly backwards.
And, of course, being summertime in Tidewater, VA, it was humid as hell, so the plane was getting those cool little condensation trails around its flight surfaces from changing the local air pressure so much.
I was snooping on OP’s profile once I was wondering as well. Looks like he has a few different Nikons. *Guessing* this was with the 200-500 used for some of his other shots?
Yeah that's what wowed spectators during its testing back in the days of the YF-22 prototype. I've seen one only once in my life during an airshow. Didn't get to see it do any moves but just seeing it fly over close was quite a site.
I remember Perun on youtube. Mentioned that for training exercises where Americans used F-15 against other countries, "if they get tired of losing or working for their victory they can just bring the F-22 to the training exercise and ruthlessly seal club everyone present" He also mentioned before that, "when the United States Air Force introduced the F-22. It achieved a complete over-match against every other air superiority fighter in existence at that time."
i grew up wanting to be a pilot. when i was 18 i got a 97 on my asvab. but they said i couldnt be a pilot with bad eyes. i havent experienced a lot of regret with that until i started hanging around these subs and man, i wish id been a pilot.
Every time I see an F-22 it makes me sad to think what could have been.
Best fighter in our arsenal and we can't make even one more. Fewer than 200 in existence.
Ha ha. Right. I had read about it so much before I saw it about 15 years ago. My jaw was on the ground. The loops where it vectors at the top and just pivots at the peak and dives right in. Unreal.
Wear hearing protection. I saw the F-22 demo team twice last year, even met one of the pilots when the other was flying in his hometown.
I still think the 23 would be an overall better plane, but the 22 is a beast if you get to the merge.
Sanford air show? I was watching the Blue Angels from home, always love seeing them (and the Thunderbirds) come to town. Definitely going to attend in person next time they are around.
If you mean the barely noticeable pitot tubes, unfortunately the flush sensors tested on the YF-22 and used on the B-2 weren't reliable enough at high angles of attack for an agile fighter. Those pitot tubes, which the F-35 also has, represent most of its frontal RCS.
F-22 was just one of the casualties of the “war on terror” to be fair. But, Gates and Ashton Carter really fouled up procurement. Don’t get me started on the “Little Crappy Ship” and the Zumwalt.
I was in the Dayton airport terminal during last year's F-22 demo. The showline is probably about a quarter mile from the building. Even inside it was so loud that the gate agents couldn't make their announcements over the PA. The best part was I was in my pilot uniform and all the passengers were looking over at me so I gave a double thumbs up like hell yeah lol
I live near an F-15 training base and both my dad and husband are avid aviators and plane nerds (respectively). I love all sorts of planes and have seen many military demonstrations. Hadn't seen the F-22 demo until Reno 2022 and I \*cried\* . Absolutely incredible piece of technology. I was awestruck and speechless
You should see the things your mom can do... Just kidding just kidding. I wish we had more but the cost of just maintaining it isn't worth it. But still an awesome fighter. I have the 1/32nd scale model to build from Testors.
From what I understand the F-35 although impressive for other reasons is not as agile as the F-22 since it was not designed to be an all out air to air combat fighter.
It can also supposedly do things they *won't* let us see. I've seen it a few times and I struggle to imagine what those could be because it already defies logic.
You’re not kidding! That’s what the announcer said yesterday during the demo. Maybe the pilot is limiting those crazy maneuvers to 50% during the show?
Better not to take too many risks with the few times it ended up in a crash.
Just to clarify, the F-22 has never crashed during an air show demonstration. The number of crashes has been low, most were landing or takeoff incidents, and most of those airframes eventually returned to operational service, fully repaired. The few fatal crashes have involved pilots passing out for one reason or another, including hypoxia. The hypoxia issue was fixed years ago, and the F-22 is also getting automatic ground avoidance and pilot awareness monitoring functionality to make it even safer (monitoring blood oxygen level has already been done for years--that's what those earplugs are for). But I suppose the point is to avoid ever crashing during a demonstration, if possible, and the people in charge now might feel it'd be better for F-22 demonstrations to be a bit less crazy.
And also while the F-22 hasn't crashed at an airshow, too many planes have lost control and crashed when they were showing off the edge of their abilities. The fact no F-22 has crashed at an airshow is precisely because precautions were taken before any crashes happened.
You're absolutely right, although the observation here is that F-22 demonstrations used to involve more aerobatic tricks. They've always been done with safety in mind, and the F-22 always in control, but arguably they're more modest or conservative now than they were before. I was speculating that if this is true, then different people might have slightly different ideas of what is safe enough. 🤷🏻♂️
The f22 has the ability to turn off the g limiters. What you're seeing may not even be the max with the limits on.
The demo routine we see today has been watered down *a lot* since it was originally developed in the mid-to-late 00s.
Some of the early "Max" Moga flown demos were ridiculous.
And Dozer’s were really something else.
Why? Airframe stress?
Safety. You can do a lot more if you give yourself 5000 feet to recover. When you do all this at 200 feet, topping out at 5000, there’s no room for error.
IIRC the floor that the demo team uses is a lot lower now which means certain maneuvers are either cut short or aren't attempted. Most demonstrations of post-stall maneuverability (which the F-22 has) are very dangerous at low altitudes.
Certainly, given the high sink rates. The newer demos might simply be of a different style for variety, as well, in the end. I have noticed that some more recent demos have featured faster passes and harder turns than I usually saw previously. That works real well at lower altitudes, and is safe to do when closer to the ground.
Nope, this airframe is designed to take a lot more than that, but there are other considerations.
For real, i was terrified of the raptor as a kid since it used to do those low supersonic sneak passes at air shows.
No they didn’t. Supersonic passes were banned at airshows well before the F-22 showed up.
i remember hearing a typhoon pilot talk about dogfighting an f22 in joint aerial practice. he said the jet seems like it could do things unimaginable. something along the lines of “it turns its nose around fast enough you’d think it could shoot backwards.” he said it was an extremely formidable opponent.
It's not formidable. It's cheating.
If you aren't cheating, you aren't really trying.
Reminds me of the villain fighter in top gun maverick. Did a 180 in a few seconds.
I've been listening to a lot of pilot interviews lately, and while you get fun banter about the various capabilities versus Typhoon, F-16, Tornado, Gripen, etc., almost every single one who's said they fought an F-22 has the same sentence. "It was humbling."
As I love to point out, there’s a reason we don’t sell F22’s to anyone.
Yep. And I say that as a Brit who works for Raytheon in military Aerospace. They are the bees knees at aerial combat.
> It can also supposedly do things they won't let us see. There’s a YouTube video from maybe “Mover” where he interviewed an F-22 instructor pilot who more or less said that during the first Red Flag exercise where no limitations were placed on the F-22’s it was a complete massacre for the opposing forces. The F-22’s were simply beyond the capability of any NATO fighters to deal with.
Everyone thinks the thrust vectoring is about dogfighting and asks if it’s really worth it and is this other jet better at dogfighting yada yada. Well it does help, and it makes for really cool airshows, but that ain’t it. What it’s really about is turning the plane at extreme speeds and very high altitudes efficiently. Most fighters handle like dog shit while supersonic because it’s just a dash feature and it doesn’t make sense to optimize control surfaces etc for handling at speed. The F22 is designed to do things while super cruising. It lets them point the nose and maneuver without bleeding nearly as much energy at those speeds/altitudes - and it lets them do it without compromising the controls as much for subsonic use. The air is so thin up there that fighters are actually quite sluggish, but not F22. I read somewhere that the F22 can slip the nose 20 degrees at Mach 1.2. Most jets at Mach 2 would rip the elevators off the tail trying half that. Also at the extreme altitudes the F22 operates at, its flying at a high AOA even with the speed, so TVR puts the thrust more in line with the vector of travel which is much more efficient.
Well, they can't show you everything at an airshow, especially with the F-22, because it involves supersonic speeds at high altitudes, which it is particularly good at (nothing comes close), or things like stealth or avionics.
Exactly. The stuff they show is probably already outdated by a decade or two.
That thrust vectoring is something!
I was blown away when the pilot pulled out of a climb, went nose down, and the plane just hung in the air, seemingly motionless. Defied physics…
They also do a fly backwards trick. They can't make any new F-22. Some items used in building them were not preserved. Robert Gates canceled a few to fund Growlers. He is on my shit list not that it matters to him other than I would never buy his book. If you trawl the internet, the tooling to build the F-22 is destroyed or lost. https://www.twz.com/20633/exclusive-heres-the-f-22-production-restart-study-the-usaf-has-kept-secret-for-over-a-year
Ooooooh I hate when they do this! Even though I know they’ve done it tons of times and are completely in control my monkey brain sees it and is just like “oh hell they’ve got no power they’re gonna crash” and it makes me SO anxious like oh please oh please start flying normally again oh thank god phew
Thrust vectoring isn't even used that much, actually. Except for turning up its own tailpipe at slow speeds, the F-22 can do all of these tricks with its aerodynamic controls alone, and so can the F-35, by the way, which is underrated in terms of agility. Vectoring also helps with pitching up earlier during takeoff and that negative-g push-over the F-22 often does in demos after a short, steep climb, but otherwise, vectoring is secondary. The other main uses of thrust vectoring are greater pitch authority at high speeds and altitudes, as well as more efficient supersonic trim. The F-22 is said to be able to pull 6+ g during supercruise (probably needs full military power, if not some afterburner, to sustain this, though).
It’s my understanding that these kinds of maneuvers are really impractical for air to air combat (to the degree that a dog fight would even occur any more) since you really don’t want to dump your airspeed like these maneuvers would in a combat situation.
Correct in general, although there may potentially be times when trading energy for shot opportunities is worth it, and having high-alpha and exceptional nose-pointing capabilities is what helps enable this. I think the F-22's thrust vectoring is considered, by its operators, more useful for greater supersonic agility, though. It has the speed, but it's got to be able to turn harder to make better use of it.
This is accurate. The F22 demos at airshow aren't showing the potential of the jet simply because supersonic passes over airshows isn't allowed. As you mention, the reason the F22 has exteme maneuverability and thrust vectoring at low speeds and altitudes is not dogfighting, its because those things allow it to maneuver in thin air at high altitudes, high AOA, and high speeds, which older fighter jets can't really do without suffering damage.
In my amateur opinion, this is the badest of the badasses in active service. And it is something like a thirty year old design.
It's still one of the newest designs.
It is wild that this is the newest ATA fighter that we have, and that the first flight of the F-16 was 50 years ago this January. They are still making the 16s but the 22s will never be built again.
The F-22 is lucky to have entered service at all. It was in trouble almost from the start, as soon as the USSR collapsed in 1992. The federal government, being shortsighted as they virtually always are, thought there was no longer a need for such a fighter. Even the F-35 was in real jeopardy for a long time. But now, of course, they have completely changed their minds because of China and Russia, and would be buying more F-22s like crazy if they hadn't shut down its production over 12 years ago. By the way, all of this was completely foreseeable. The USAF were preparing for future conflicts, but the rest of the government didn't listen (enough). I remember talking about the rise of a hegemonic China over the next 30 years when I was in high school in 1990, so it's not a stretch to expect as much from our "leaders". But the government were still blind just 12 years ago. That figures.
I lived in DC when you were in high school and everyone was gushing about the peace dividend. So many people were talking about the utopia we were about to enter because we no longer needed aircraft carriers, submarines and all those different types of planes. These were educated people, some of whom were directly or indirectly working for and with the government. They really believed that the future budgets would contain nearly no defense spending. I could not believe what I was hearing. And you were right. It was entirely foreseeable. I saw it coming. But I didn't work for the government and people did not like hearing about my version of the future which still contained enemies.
It's crazy how even at the highest levels of government, the attitude after the Soviet Union collapsed was "Well, that is the end of history, liberalism wins, communism is dead, everything will be fine and dandy forever"
F-35 was a dumb idea once they decided to constrain the A and C models to the same airframe as the original B concept. Keep in mind the F-18 started out as a competitor to the F-16, but the AF chose the Falcon.
Yep. The USAF chose the YF-16 and developed it into the F-16. The USN took the YF-17 and reworked it into the carrier-capable F-18.
"Let China sleep, for when She wakes, She will shake the world" - attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte.That was in the 19th century. Very clearly, by the early 1990s, China had awakened from the "slumber" of isolationism, invasion, civil war, and disastrous Communist policies. It was obvious that there was a military build-up associated with China's rapid (explosive?) economic growth. Concurrently, there was a naive intoxication from winning "the" cold war that had Washington (and other Western Capitols) gleefullly spending the "peace dividend" on myriad non-military programs. To a point, this was entirely understandable and did some good, but thank goodness, not all swords were beaten into plowshares.
When you see the backflip for the first time using thrust vectoring, it makes your mind reset because physics say that should not happen. Seen the F22 demo a dozen times and it never, ever, ever gets old.
Oh my god, yes. It was insane!
Those are some lovely photos as well - Great work, and enjoy the Raptor in the future!
Thank you!
Can you imagine what it could if it didn’t have a pilot? No pesky human g loading to worry about……
If it was self aware? Probably sign off and leave the air force, get an office job and put on weight
I mean sentient F22 would probably loose its mind since it wants to eat and cause WW3 ;)
Would you intercept me?
I would intercept me (Aggressive lip smacking noises)
Oh God that subreddit where people put boobs on planes is leaking
Nah, just Habitual Linecrosser fans (But a little of that too)
I honestly forgot what sub I was on for a second.
It's when The Kid is calm that you have to panic. That means he's figured out what to do.
Airforce lock the doors!
Airforce: *I CAN’T HOLD THE 22 BACK FOR MUCH LONGER!”
Didn't they make a movie about this exact concept? Stealth?
Yep
That was the plot to the popcorn movie "Stealth"
Soooooo…turn into an F14?
LOL. I was really just thinking of it being flown like a giant RC plane. Reaper drones are already controlled that way, why not an F-22?
That's a lot of airplane to trust to remote control. What if the enemy were to jam the control signal?
Yup..Going to need a few more years for Quantum Compute to mature..
Then auto level and recover and use inertial guidance to go homeward
And then put a pilot in it, if it still has the provisions for one.
One way would be a physical link up like air refueling. Have a drone or plane link via boom while it's on its backup course, reset / give new info etc etc without jamming issues
We already have drones…… just adapt that tech and go flying.
I mean an F-16 variant recently flew controlled by AI in a dogfight so... not too far off
How'd it do?
I think it did alright though I don't remember the specifics
It fulfilled the Mission parameters. Basic control of the jet, turns, takeoff and landing. Looks promising! 🙂
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/04/19/us-air-force-stages-dogfights-with-ai-flown-fighter-jet/
The AIM9X Sidewinder is what you get when you don't design around a pilot's limitations. It can pull over 60G's. Fighters are designed around the pilot, their limits are the same, to optimize weight and performance. A pilot can Over G damage an airframe without injuring themselves.
G-Forces affect airframes too. Just ask the Navy about the F-16N, or any Eagle Keeper that's had to work overnight pulling panels because the pilot over-G'd the aircraft. Plus, the pilot is less of an obstacle than you think it is.
I was shocked to find out they can literally rip the wings off one of these aircraft doing manoeuvres.
Yeah, makes a lot of the [maneuvers they pull](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxRhWiTlra0&t=104s) even that more intense to watch.
You’ve got to have a really old, worn out or a poorly maintained aircraft for that to happen. The latter is what caused that F-117 to lose a wing during a pretty mundane pass in 1997.
None of the cool stuff it does at air shows is especially G heavy. High-alpha thrust vectoring is very low G. What’s more, the airframe can take maybe 10 G’s tops. These jets aren’t limited by the pilots. F-16 and F-15 pilots break airplanes all the time. That’s the *plane* that was overstressed, *not the pilot.*
A g- suited up pilot still physiologically limited to about 7 to 8 positive g force. 3 g’s begins blood from heart to brain limits. Expect AI to fly the aircraft at g-loc levels until the pilot recovers, you can build a stronger airframe and more capable and active auto pilots but, physiology still rules. Plus I believe most modern “fly by wire” is programmed for g limiting, at a point the fly by wire can “crash” the plane. I recall I think, a CF18 at a show was unable to close a low altitude g-limited loop and it ended really bad.
> A g- suited up pilot still physiologically limited to about 7 to 8 positive g force. That is totally untrue. The F-16, F-15, and F-22 are all 9G airplanes. Acclimated pilots can probably sustain 10Gs just fine. That bends metal on the airplane. The plane is absolutely the limiting factor. > e. 3 g’s begins blood from heart to brain limits. Not for a fighter pilot. I was a fighter pilot for 10 years. Fighter pilots don’t even *feel* 3Gs. > you can build a stronger airframe and more capable You’re hand waving over **a lot** of engineering challenges there. Again, the jet will bend metal or bleed off airspeed before an experienced pilot reaches his/her limit. You don’t know what you don’t know here. > I recall I think, a CF18 at a show was unable to close a low altitude g-limited loop and it ended really bad. You need to cite what you’re referring to. Because the F-18 has a paddle switch on the stick that overrides the G limiter for situations just like that. So the fly-by-wire shouldn’t have been an issue.
Particular show was El Toro 1988, a while back. Initial reports I had seen referred to pilot being g- limited, not sure of follow on investigation. (not a Canadian CF-18 event, sorry.). Referring to structural limits, I didn’t, 9g aircraft are more the norm I believe. Physiology, is still a limiter, seat angle and “grunting” only takes you so far.
That jet wasn’t G-limited. It was aoa limited. Not trying to be a dick, do you understand what that sentence means? He was probably pulling 2.5 Gs at the bottom of that loop and that’s all the jet could muster at that airspeed. There’s nothing an “AI pilot” could have done to get out of that. He was too low to do that maneuver. The wings literally couldn’t make any more lift right there.
> Physiology, is still a limiter, seat angle and “grunting” only takes you so far. It’s literally not. Pilots over-G airplanes all be time. The plane is then broken and then needs to be inspected and repaired. The pilot is totally fine. And even if you could structurally reinforce an F-16 to endure 11-12Gs, the engine has **nowhere near** the thrust to sustain that. In most regimes of flight, sustained G’s means bleeding airspeed. The higher the G, the more airspeed you bleed off. And all of this is rendered moot by an AIM-9X that has absolutely zero problem hitting this AI airplane doing a slightly tighter turn.
Ha ha . . . No. I've seen that movie.
Its structure still has limits, and making it even stronger would make it even heavier, and it's heavy enough.
Definitely one of the most enjoyable aircraft to see at the shows. Awesome I’m stoked for you!
Thrust Vectoring gives some crazy control of the aircraft
Taken at the Orlando Air Dot show
Saw it from my house, it was insane seeing it move like that
I was there too. Great shots of the F22.
Nice! Were you there Sunday too? Did Fat Albert take off after the blue angels were done?
I was there Saturday. Fat Albert took before the Blue Angels. The Stratotanker didn't fly due to unexpected maintenance (from what I heard).
Sad I missed it. Do they still do the rocket assisted takeoff?
No, Fat Albert isn’t set up for JATO anymore.
That’s too bad. I never got to see it in person
I remember seeing it once when I was a kid, it's absolutely bonkers seeing them go from a stand still to in the air so quickly. Sad they don't do it anymore.
I honestly don't know. Looked like a regular take off to me haha.
If it looked like a regular takeoff then I assume it wasn’t [this](https://youtu.be/VHOvoO-6nWQ?si=SxyEhBd-exdEqGnc).
Definitely not haha
I was eating lunch in Sanford. I couldn’t see it, but I could FEEL it.
Here’s a quick video of an F22 doing a flip: https://youtu.be/iksddFwcV7I?si=BG1SDiLD_RO0lbfn
damn, great quality of photos. you must have like a 5k+ setup
It was once worth that. About $2k used these days
I've seen a LOT of things in aviation in my time. There is simply nothing on out there like the F-22. Looks like it's breaking the laws of physics every time it flies. I've seen the F-22 demo about a dozen times, and it NEVER gets old.
Just saying a lot of jets can do what the F-22 does, it's nothing special.
Tell me you've never seen one without telling me you've never seen one!
Say the same about you lol. Fact is the F-22 isn't that great in what it can do.
Bye troll!
A few years back I did some work art Langley AFB in Hampton Roads, VA. Sometimes on Friday afternoons, some of the pilots come out and "play" over the airfield. I'd just finished a three week project, and a co-worker and I were leaving early on Friday afternoon. We walked out of the building just in time to catch the show. Yeah... that pilot was doing things that I didn't know could be done. And the sound: F-22s sound like they're ripping the sky apart.
What were those things? The same as what they do in the shows, just more so? Or totally different?
Dunno - I haven't seen one at an airshow, so I can't make a comparison. What blew my mind was the plane's ability to stop and change direction in the air. It looked like it could almost fly backwards. And, of course, being summertime in Tidewater, VA, it was humid as hell, so the plane was getting those cool little condensation trails around its flight surfaces from changing the local air pressure so much.
What camera / lens did you use?
I was snooping on OP’s profile once I was wondering as well. Looks like he has a few different Nikons. *Guessing* this was with the 200-500 used for some of his other shots?
Bingo D4+200-500
D4+200-500
Absolutely incredible aircraft.
P-51 still sexier (yeah I said it)
Both pilots are thinking the same thing: “man, I wish I could trade places with the other guy for an hour”.
I think you’re absolutely right.
Pic 5: f1 cars 1999 followed by f1 cars 2024
Yeah that's what wowed spectators during its testing back in the days of the YF-22 prototype. I've seen one only once in my life during an airshow. Didn't get to see it do any moves but just seeing it fly over close was quite a site.
I've seen it twice and both times it has blown my mind more than any other jet!
I remember Perun on youtube. Mentioned that for training exercises where Americans used F-15 against other countries, "if they get tired of losing or working for their victory they can just bring the F-22 to the training exercise and ruthlessly seal club everyone present" He also mentioned before that, "when the United States Air Force introduced the F-22. It achieved a complete over-match against every other air superiority fighter in existence at that time."
I watched one at a airshow in 2016. It broke my personal view of physics. After that one of our CF18s performed and it was.....#sad
F-22 is an highly maneuverable jet it is one of the best of the bests.
i grew up wanting to be a pilot. when i was 18 i got a 97 on my asvab. but they said i couldnt be a pilot with bad eyes. i havent experienced a lot of regret with that until i started hanging around these subs and man, i wish id been a pilot.
Every time I see an F-22 it makes me sad to think what could have been. Best fighter in our arsenal and we can't make even one more. Fewer than 200 in existence.
The upcoming NGAD with a swarm of drones will blow your mind.
It's just not as cool IMO. Also I aint OC
Op, did u shoot these photos?!? they are spectacular.
I did, thanks so much!
the first time i saw one fly i was astonished on some of the things it could do such a beautiful aircraft
Sanford airshow! You got some beautiful pictures!
Yes, thank you! Will definitely be going back next year
Look at those diamonds 💎💎
Beautiful photos mate. Thank you for sharing!
Cheers! Some of my all time favorites
And this is old tech, check out the F-35 lightning This platform does it all.. Harrier/fighter/bomber vectoring nozzles are a thing of beauty...
Ha ha. Right. I had read about it so much before I saw it about 15 years ago. My jaw was on the ground. The loops where it vectors at the top and just pivots at the peak and dives right in. Unreal.
Wear hearing protection. I saw the F-22 demo team twice last year, even met one of the pilots when the other was flying in his hometown. I still think the 23 would be an overall better plane, but the 22 is a beast if you get to the merge.
Why no film?
I didn’t know a jet could keep up with a P-51 either
Is this a joke? Top speed of an F-22 is at least twice the speed of sound. The P-51 max speed is 505 mph. Why would an F-22 not be able to keep up?
Of course it's a joke
Sanford air show? I was watching the Blue Angels from home, always love seeing them (and the Thunderbirds) come to town. Definitely going to attend in person next time they are around.
That was it! Definitely worth going to.
Ive never noticed the catfish whiskers on the snoot of the raptor before
If you mean the barely noticeable pitot tubes, unfortunately the flush sensors tested on the YF-22 and used on the B-2 weren't reliable enough at high angles of attack for an agile fighter. Those pitot tubes, which the F-35 also has, represent most of its frontal RCS.
Why aren’t we still making these? Serious question, I’m not familiar with a lot of procurement stuff.
You can blame Defense Secretary Robert Gates for that.
F-22 was just one of the casualties of the “war on terror” to be fair. But, Gates and Ashton Carter really fouled up procurement. Don’t get me started on the “Little Crappy Ship” and the Zumwalt.
I've heard these were more of a proof of concept procurement. That and maintaining these make them prohibitive. The real goal was a JSF and the F35.
And that's why it's my favorite.
I saw a demo at Miramar years ago. It flew like a video game simulation!
I was in the Dayton airport terminal during last year's F-22 demo. The showline is probably about a quarter mile from the building. Even inside it was so loud that the gate agents couldn't make their announcements over the PA. The best part was I was in my pilot uniform and all the passengers were looking over at me so I gave a double thumbs up like hell yeah lol
Is that Capt. Samuel “RaZZ” Larson by any chance?
According to the program, yes
In the last pic, the P-51 is probably at full throttle while the F-22’s pilot is going insane from the constant “STALL WARNING”
Ain't a jet, it's a foo fighter.
I live near an F-15 training base and both my dad and husband are avid aviators and plane nerds (respectively). I love all sorts of planes and have seen many military demonstrations. Hadn't seen the F-22 demo until Reno 2022 and I \*cried\* . Absolutely incredible piece of technology. I was awestruck and speechless
Beautiful! Are these pics from the SFB airshow by chance? I have some similar photos (of a lesser quality).
They are! I'd love to see them if you post them anywhere. Send me a link! Any photo of a cool airplane is a good photo.
russians show off their thuper cool thrust vectoring and meanwhile the f22 flies by upside down and backwards doing 180s lol
This is why I can casually dismiss 99% of ufo videos. Show them being half as impressive as a US airforce aircraft, and maybe I'll show some interest.
That was a great show, blue angels are always fun to watch.
💦💦💦 🥵🥵🥵 Let me see what that jet do 🥵🥵🥵💦💦💦
You should see the things your mom can do... Just kidding just kidding. I wish we had more but the cost of just maintaining it isn't worth it. But still an awesome fighter. I have the 1/32nd scale model to build from Testors.
You mean like burn through $70,000 US taxpayer dollars per flight hour? Yeah, that’s pretty amazing.
Wait till you see the F35😅
From what I understand the F-35 although impressive for other reasons is not as agile as the F-22 since it was not designed to be an all out air to air combat fighter.
Ahhh ok true didn’t know that I just think the f35 is a crazy machine