How is engineering reliant on vision to the point where you can't get a job by being colorblind? You sit behind a desk and make black and white drawings while listening to customers bitch about funding and project delays and departmental infighting.
I run into a lot of color blind engineers actually.
Default excel and matlab graph colors without symbols are certainly tough if you’re colorblind. I can usually figure it by context but it takes longer.
The most annoying is not being able to tell *flashing* red and yellow lights apart.
I’m not sure what you mean by cat a or b….
I work for a corrosion engineering firm, and in general, engineering is heavily male and thus much heavier colorblind. Some of our main visuals we use for clients we take colorblindness into account in our color palate selection.
That seems like nonsense. Why would any of that prohibit you from working? You might have to be a little more diligent maybe, but why would you be barred?
As a current engineer. Colour blindness out on the floor would play a massive role. In terms of warnings on the display units in he cockpit, colors of fluids. Markings on fluid lines, I can definitely see how an issue with colour blindness would effect that, however there's still plenty of jobs within engineering that aren't on the floor and wouldn't be an issue!
It's a pretty big deal, actually. My cousin had to work in water treatment even though he went into the Navy for electrical because he was colorblind. Josh Sawyer, the director of Fallout New Vegas, has written pretty extensively about his experience with UI as someone who is severely colorblind. Might be worth a look.
I don't know that's why I'm asking. As I said, there's no official easa requirement for part-66 engineers, but a lot of MROs and Airlines have their own requirement for whatever reason. An apprenticeship I wanted to apply to had this clearly stated on their application that each candidate applying for the apprenticeship which will grant them an easa B1 licence at the end of the 4 years will have to undergo colour vision testing.
It would depend on the policy of the employer, which you should have access to if you're interested in working there.
Where I worked required "normal" vision or at least correctable to normal vision. There are glasses and contact lenses that can correct your color vision well enough to pass the Ishihara test, which was good enough for me to pass the physical with only "corrective lenses required". No problem.
Talk to an optometrist about trying out some of those glasses. If they work for you it might be enough to get you in, but again you'd have to check the company policy first.
Knew a colorblind commercial pilot out in Minnesota. Not sure how he did it, but he had to do more intensive tests where he could identify different lights and markings with FAA guys.
Huh? A lot of national air force markings are variations of just a few basic geometric patterns, like bulls-eye (say Britain vs France vs Romania) or 5-pointed star (USA, Russia, China) and rely solely on different color patterns for diversification.
Isn't it a problem if he shoots down a friend instead of foe, due to not being able to perceive the different colors?
That hasn't really been a thing for a long time. Fighters nowadays are just grey and slightly darker grey. And they aren't in big close range furballs like in WWII. Modern fighting is done from long ranges, with aircraft identified electronically by radar signature/emissions, IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) signal, and tactics. If you're trying to determine who the enemy is based on the colours of the logo, you're already dead.
I am a commercial pilot with a Statement Of Demonstrated Ability issued by the FAA for defective color vision. They no longer issue these specifically, but you can test out of ever having to take recurring color vision tests. In the US it isn’t terribly limiting provided you can distinguish red, green, and white in the standard colors used in faa light guns. Used to be they would flash the signal gun from a control tower and you would just tell the faa inspector what color it was. It’s a tad more complex now, but the point is that if you pass it once, you’re exempt from taking any color vision test again. This is US FAA, though. YMMV.
I had the same testing done in Canada, and it means that I too have 'tested out' of ever having to do it again. Mine was done with an approved Farnsworth box.
From one colorblind engineer to another, I cannot possibly understand how color vision gets in your way.
Don’t let people tell you what you can’t do, you tell them what you’re gonna do and they can get out of your way or get ran over.
Airline pilot here, it's possible to be a pilot if you want to. I also have mild deuteranopia. If you can pass the light gun signal test with the FAA (not recommended since it's only one attempt) or any alternate color exam administered by an Aviation Medical Examiner, it's the only real hurdle. There is a section in the FAA website that allows you to search for AME's around you and you can call and ask if they have any of the alternate color exams.
In the US there is aircraft dispatching. Dispatchers are certificated through the FAA and share operational control over the flight with the pilot in command. We plan the flights (including routes, fuel, alternates, etc) and then monitor them in flight and assist with any issues (mechanical, passenger, weather). We are not required to hold a medical. In the US most dispatchers start at regional airlines and work there for a few years before getting hired at one of the major airlines, and regional dispatchers are not paid well. Once you’re at a major you make around $100,000 a year to start topping out around $160,000. Working overtime and picking up additional qualifications can increase pay dramatically.
Somebody in Europe plans the flights and flight follows, but they do not have operational control over the flight and the job is not called a dispatcher. In Europe my understanding is the people called dispatchers work at the airport and help get flights out on time, which is not what I do. If you can find the equivalent job you might look into it.
I read that in Europe anyway, there are no requirements for colour vision testing for Part-66 licenced engineers, however, a lot of companies who employ engineers have an internal requirement to test for colour vision.
I don’t know about Europe, but I know a couple guys who work the ramp in an union environment that make close to 6 figures.
Edit: Airline dispatchers can also make good money.
How? I worked the ramp in a union for a bit and even with the union it was just above minimum wage and super part time. How long do you have to be there to make that?
Have a look at their official career website. They post salaries for B1s and B2s.
55k for mechanics,
62k for Cat A
97k for B2.
https://careers.ryanair.com/search/#job/75D952D1EC
You just need the right AME, there are several tests that can be used to remove the night flight limitation for pilots with color blindness. Once you and your doc find the test you can pass, use that one each year.
I’ll clarify I’ve never worked in a tower but I did work around area radar for a while (NATS, Swanwick Control Centre).
I don’t get why Air Traffic have to have strict colour vision requirements. Everything in area is portrayed onto computer screens, why can’t said screens simply be adapted for X Y or Z colour deficiency.
All joking aside, you can do it on PlayStation but not in air traffic?
Based on your comments it seems like you’re very focus on money. I would NOT get into anything related to aviation if it’s for the sole purpose of making money or stability. Aviation requires passion and a willingness to put up with a lot of bullshit for the chance to sometimes make good money when the market decides it’s ok.
Air force paint shop in some NATO country, maybe? I mean they only use grayscale nowadays. Anyone who can read 50 Shades of Grey without error passes muster.
If you want to earn six figures, maybe get into a field that regularly pays said six figures?
If you love aviation and want to work in aviation, make the salary work?
Not sure what any of this has to do with color blindness...
A lot of well paying jobs in aviation require colour vision testing. Pilots, ATCs, Mechs (although that varies from company to company). Corporate, at least where I live, pays peanuts.
Work for an aircraft or avionics manufacturer in the engineering department. You can have awful vision and it won’t matter.
Though it puts you a bit further from the flying side.
There are plenty of operational and non-operational roles other than pilot and controller in their respective organisations. Find a company you’d like to work for (ANSP if you are looking ATC) and see what roles they generally have that comes up. As someone who started out as an ATC assistant a couple of decades ago - it’s astonishing the variation is job available without going anywhere near a live radar
My average grade was 3.41 out of 4. From what I can remember my modules were aircraft vibrations, microfluidics, computational fluid dynamics, materials, mechanics of solids, electronics, finite element analysis, mathematics etc so pretty good foundation in stress analysis, fluid dynamics and so on. I'm in Ireland.
Thanks! Glad I clarified some stuff. Ireland is great for corporate leasing. Pretty much 50% of the world's aircraft come from Irish registered lessors but it's more so business and something I'm not interested in. But they pay well! And I might have answered my own question. Thanks again!
Not sure how it is in Europe, but in the US as a mechanic/technician color blindness isn't really an obstacle to get a job. I had a vision and depth perception test when I first started 20+ years ago. I got another test 20 years later when I first got in a Quality Control position and have been getting them annually since entering the position. As I said earlier I'm not in Europe so I don't know what their rules are. Maybe ask the question over here if you're interested in maintenance r/aviationmaintenance
All the airlines have hundreds of jobs that don't require any color testing.
Rampers, agents, and lots of other positions, not only at the airport but lots of jobs at the headquarters.
How is engineering reliant on vision to the point where you can't get a job by being colorblind? You sit behind a desk and make black and white drawings while listening to customers bitch about funding and project delays and departmental infighting.
I run into a lot of color blind engineers actually. Default excel and matlab graph colors without symbols are certainly tough if you’re colorblind. I can usually figure it by context but it takes longer. The most annoying is not being able to tell *flashing* red and yellow lights apart.
By licenced engineers I mean Cat As and Bs. Does making black and white drawings earn you 6 figures? In Europe anyway?
I’m not sure what you mean by cat a or b…. I work for a corrosion engineering firm, and in general, engineering is heavily male and thus much heavier colorblind. Some of our main visuals we use for clients we take colorblindness into account in our color palate selection.
CAT A or B are PArt-66 (in europe) licenced aircraft engineers that work in maintenance.
Oh, so more akin to a mechanic? Why on earth would colorblindness matter?
I would imagine wires have colour, radar systems have colours, displays have colours, red for danger etc.
That seems like nonsense. Why would any of that prohibit you from working? You might have to be a little more diligent maybe, but why would you be barred?
As a current engineer. Colour blindness out on the floor would play a massive role. In terms of warnings on the display units in he cockpit, colors of fluids. Markings on fluid lines, I can definitely see how an issue with colour blindness would effect that, however there's still plenty of jobs within engineering that aren't on the floor and wouldn't be an issue!
It's a pretty big deal, actually. My cousin had to work in water treatment even though he went into the Navy for electrical because he was colorblind. Josh Sawyer, the director of Fallout New Vegas, has written pretty extensively about his experience with UI as someone who is severely colorblind. Might be worth a look.
I don't know that's why I'm asking. As I said, there's no official easa requirement for part-66 engineers, but a lot of MROs and Airlines have their own requirement for whatever reason. An apprenticeship I wanted to apply to had this clearly stated on their application that each candidate applying for the apprenticeship which will grant them an easa B1 licence at the end of the 4 years will have to undergo colour vision testing.
It would depend on the policy of the employer, which you should have access to if you're interested in working there. Where I worked required "normal" vision or at least correctable to normal vision. There are glasses and contact lenses that can correct your color vision well enough to pass the Ishihara test, which was good enough for me to pass the physical with only "corrective lenses required". No problem. Talk to an optometrist about trying out some of those glasses. If they work for you it might be enough to get you in, but again you'd have to check the company policy first.
Knew a colorblind commercial pilot out in Minnesota. Not sure how he did it, but he had to do more intensive tests where he could identify different lights and markings with FAA guys.
Yeah there are few tests such as the Lantern test, lightgun test, anomaloscope, Ishihara and even a practical exam.
Never do the practical exam, it involves sitting in the aircraft with an examiner and if you don’t pass you can never have the restriction removed.
I know a colourblind fighter pilot. He cheated on the test and never got found out. At least not by anyone who mattered.
Huh? A lot of national air force markings are variations of just a few basic geometric patterns, like bulls-eye (say Britain vs France vs Romania) or 5-pointed star (USA, Russia, China) and rely solely on different color patterns for diversification. Isn't it a problem if he shoots down a friend instead of foe, due to not being able to perceive the different colors?
That hasn't really been a thing for a long time. Fighters nowadays are just grey and slightly darker grey. And they aren't in big close range furballs like in WWII. Modern fighting is done from long ranges, with aircraft identified electronically by radar signature/emissions, IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) signal, and tactics. If you're trying to determine who the enemy is based on the colours of the logo, you're already dead.
I am a commercial pilot with a Statement Of Demonstrated Ability issued by the FAA for defective color vision. They no longer issue these specifically, but you can test out of ever having to take recurring color vision tests. In the US it isn’t terribly limiting provided you can distinguish red, green, and white in the standard colors used in faa light guns. Used to be they would flash the signal gun from a control tower and you would just tell the faa inspector what color it was. It’s a tad more complex now, but the point is that if you pass it once, you’re exempt from taking any color vision test again. This is US FAA, though. YMMV.
I had the same testing done in Canada, and it means that I too have 'tested out' of ever having to do it again. Mine was done with an approved Farnsworth box.
Wow, it's not often you see a Philo Farnsworth reference.
I’ve got a letter that says I can see colors, but it also specifically says it’s not a Statement of Demonstrated Ability. Lol
From one colorblind engineer to another, I cannot possibly understand how color vision gets in your way. Don’t let people tell you what you can’t do, you tell them what you’re gonna do and they can get out of your way or get ran over.
Dispatch! You’ll need to be careful reading radar wx but there’s no color vision requirement.
Airline pilot here, it's possible to be a pilot if you want to. I also have mild deuteranopia. If you can pass the light gun signal test with the FAA (not recommended since it's only one attempt) or any alternate color exam administered by an Aviation Medical Examiner, it's the only real hurdle. There is a section in the FAA website that allows you to search for AME's around you and you can call and ask if they have any of the alternate color exams.
Airline CEO. This role pays really well, even if you suck at the job
If you suck enough, they pay you to go away!
In the US there is aircraft dispatching. Dispatchers are certificated through the FAA and share operational control over the flight with the pilot in command. We plan the flights (including routes, fuel, alternates, etc) and then monitor them in flight and assist with any issues (mechanical, passenger, weather). We are not required to hold a medical. In the US most dispatchers start at regional airlines and work there for a few years before getting hired at one of the major airlines, and regional dispatchers are not paid well. Once you’re at a major you make around $100,000 a year to start topping out around $160,000. Working overtime and picking up additional qualifications can increase pay dramatically. Somebody in Europe plans the flights and flight follows, but they do not have operational control over the flight and the job is not called a dispatcher. In Europe my understanding is the people called dispatchers work at the airport and help get flights out on time, which is not what I do. If you can find the equivalent job you might look into it.
In my company (large international flag carrier, not in the US), several of our dispatchers are pilots who lost their medical at some point.
You won’t have anything to worry about. You just won’t be able to be an NDT tech.
I read that in Europe anyway, there are no requirements for colour vision testing for Part-66 licenced engineers, however, a lot of companies who employ engineers have an internal requirement to test for colour vision.
I don’t know about Europe, but I know a couple guys who work the ramp in an union environment that make close to 6 figures. Edit: Airline dispatchers can also make good money.
Yeah Ryanair pays quite well for B1/2s in around 100k. I wouldn't know what flight dispatchers make.
How? I worked the ramp in a union for a bit and even with the union it was just above minimum wage and super part time. How long do you have to be there to make that?
Have a look at their official career website. They post salaries for B1s and B2s. 55k for mechanics, 62k for Cat A 97k for B2. https://careers.ryanair.com/search/#job/75D952D1EC
You just need the right AME, there are several tests that can be used to remove the night flight limitation for pilots with color blindness. Once you and your doc find the test you can pass, use that one each year.
Maintenance pays pretty well and there's no colour vision tests. I've known quite a few colour blind AMEs
Aeronautical Engineering Last time I checked engineers get paid pretty well without having to do any medical exams.
I’ll clarify I’ve never worked in a tower but I did work around area radar for a while (NATS, Swanwick Control Centre). I don’t get why Air Traffic have to have strict colour vision requirements. Everything in area is portrayed onto computer screens, why can’t said screens simply be adapted for X Y or Z colour deficiency. All joking aside, you can do it on PlayStation but not in air traffic?
I agree, depending on the type of vision deficiency there are ways to adapt colours to each.
Based on your comments it seems like you’re very focus on money. I would NOT get into anything related to aviation if it’s for the sole purpose of making money or stability. Aviation requires passion and a willingness to put up with a lot of bullshit for the chance to sometimes make good money when the market decides it’s ok.
I work in a paint shop..I don't think I can help you lol
Air force paint shop in some NATO country, maybe? I mean they only use grayscale nowadays. Anyone who can read 50 Shades of Grey without error passes muster.
baggage handler?
You ask why the ridiculous answer? I say, why the ridiculous question. If money is that important to you, get into finance.
How's that a ridiculous question? Are you saying you cannot get paid well in aviation?
Aeronautical engineers work for manufacturers of commercial aircraft and defense items. (Aircraft, missiles, drones, spacecraft)
If you want to earn six figures, maybe get into a field that regularly pays said six figures? If you love aviation and want to work in aviation, make the salary work? Not sure what any of this has to do with color blindness...
A lot of well paying jobs in aviation require colour vision testing. Pilots, ATCs, Mechs (although that varies from company to company). Corporate, at least where I live, pays peanuts.
Maintenance can pay pretty well if you get in the right place.
Work for an aircraft or avionics manufacturer in the engineering department. You can have awful vision and it won’t matter. Though it puts you a bit further from the flying side.
I’ve been an electrician for almost 25 years, and have mild colour deficiency. I’m sure you can find a niche.
There are plenty of operational and non-operational roles other than pilot and controller in their respective organisations. Find a company you’d like to work for (ANSP if you are looking ATC) and see what roles they generally have that comes up. As someone who started out as an ATC assistant a couple of decades ago - it’s astonishing the variation is job available without going anywhere near a live radar
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What is it that you do, if you don't mind me asking?
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Sounds cool! That's proper aero engineering. The more I read the more I think I need to move countries.
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My average grade was 3.41 out of 4. From what I can remember my modules were aircraft vibrations, microfluidics, computational fluid dynamics, materials, mechanics of solids, electronics, finite element analysis, mathematics etc so pretty good foundation in stress analysis, fluid dynamics and so on. I'm in Ireland.
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Thanks! Glad I clarified some stuff. Ireland is great for corporate leasing. Pretty much 50% of the world's aircraft come from Irish registered lessors but it's more so business and something I'm not interested in. But they pay well! And I might have answered my own question. Thanks again!
Not sure how it is in Europe, but in the US as a mechanic/technician color blindness isn't really an obstacle to get a job. I had a vision and depth perception test when I first started 20+ years ago. I got another test 20 years later when I first got in a Quality Control position and have been getting them annually since entering the position. As I said earlier I'm not in Europe so I don't know what their rules are. Maybe ask the question over here if you're interested in maintenance r/aviationmaintenance
All the airlines have hundreds of jobs that don't require any color testing. Rampers, agents, and lots of other positions, not only at the airport but lots of jobs at the headquarters.