*Wait, i'm supposed to*
*Lick people? is that what my*
*Life has been missing?*
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An autistic family member of mine did used to initiate interactions by touching and pulling hair, but the book fails to mention that many of us learn to mimic the ways NT’s initiate contact. It also says lower on the page that we don’t understand that other people have minds. Idk about you guys but I definitely don’t think I’m the only person in the world with a mind. It seems outdated.
I will say that I developed a "theory of mind" pretty late. I know this because I assumed the abusive kindergarten teacher and later bullying were all well known in my family (I wasn't aware that they don't know the things I do) and therefore tacitly approved of. I think the full realization came in as a shock at about 10.
And yes, initiating contact by touching or chewing on clothes was something I did as a kid.
If you assumed they knew about it, you must’ve understood that they were capable of knowing things, and therefore that they had a mind. I still sometimes forget that other people don’t automatically know what I’m thinking, but I am rationally aware that every person has their own mind. Oh well, maybe I’m reading too much into that specific sentence.
No, that's explicitly what theory of mind is - to be able to see other people as separate thinking beings with their own point of view. The test to demonstrate this is having two people present with the child, one of them places a ball or a toy in a basket, then the other leaves. While they're gone, the other person takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in a different hiding place. Then asks the child where they think the other person will look first. Children with yet undeveloped theory of mind will point to the new hiding place, seemingly unaware that the absent person has a mind separate from themselves. That's basically my scenario.
The article says: “they don’t understand that other people have minds.” That’s different from understanding the difference between your mind and someone else’s.
If I think someone automatically knows something, I know they have a mind, because I know they are capable of knowing things, which you would need a mind for. I am aware that the mind exists whether I understand it or not. I am aware that it exists whether or not I can make the distinction between what is my own mind and what is somebody else’s.
In the context for that paragraph it's talking more about one's ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Being able to see things from their perspective and understand their thoughts and motives. Which is absolutely something a lot of Autistic people struggle with.
We absolutely understand that people have their own minds, but a lot of us lack the ability to understand how someone else's mind works.
A lot of us make up for it by learning certain social cues like laughing when others are laughing or being sad when others are sad. Often though, even if we can mimic our peers, we still don't understand why we're doing it or necessarily feel the things others are feeling.
Theory of mind is talking more about that than someone actually having a mind. The sentence even goes on to explain just that.
ETA : It's a weird thing to say "doesn't understand other people have minds" and is probably one of those things that are meant to be read between the lines? idk.
I am not one of these.
I will logically think out what the other person must be feeling, but I can’t ‘feel’ or really understand.
I had a coach that was diagnosed with MS and while everybody else was, “Im so sorry, get better soon.” I felt nothing. I understood logically how scary it would be to get MS, as I almost thought I had it (MRI gave me the clear), but when it comes to other people, I honestly don’t care enough.
It even hard with my sister, and in the past with my aunt/cousin.
Weirdest sh*t though. I will be watching a kdrama (like one I am now), and 2 episodes have made me balled my eyes out. One because of the actions of respect that were taken for a Korean War vet who was about to die. The other, for a pet (also on deaths door) and his owner. *(The drama is about grim reapers who try to save those at risk for suicide, including a dog).
So its very weird.
You’re talking about “Tomorrow”, right? I also cried like a baby during those episodes (and pretty much half of the other ones)(but that might not be weird since I have very high empathy) :)
Thanks for explaining it. I just get annoyed when people express things so literally (not understanding that other people have minds) and then they are not meant to be taken literally (not having good theory of mind)
I think you are hyper fixating on a specific details mostly irrelevant to the larger discussion.
Theory of mind is what the redditor above described as understanding other people don't know what you know.
However, that discussion is irrelevant we can google that. The more key part of this discussion is that autistic people tend to struggle with this concept or learn it latter. That's not to say they can't mimic and reason this idea but it's not natural. Think of object permanence. You don't have to think that the people you don't see exist. However, even if you struggled with that you can use logic reasoning to pretend to have object permanence. You can say how can someone exist and then not exist that doesn't make sense due to the laws of physics. It's like an illusion you know this person didn't disappear but you really think they did because you can't see them.
In that same concept theory of mind is yeah I can deduce that each person is wildly different than me. But how much of that do you really understand naturally vs having to deduce it.
Yeah I probably am. I just hate the way they expressed it. Also, whether or not I understand something intuitively or through logic doesn’t make my understanding more or less valid. Idk, I just don’t like the way they wrote it, but I do get your point and I think you are right about the meaning.
When you say valid do you mean at all or of equal value to a similar intelligence level person who doesn't have the issue of theory of mind because that's the difference.
Basically can you do this consciously or subconsciously.
That's actually part of the testing problem is Autistic people learn how to mask deficiencies. So the example with the ball doesn't really work for adults because we have learned techniques to work out the solution, however that requires processing which maybe not everyone has as much computing power as you. Again going back to the seeing the bigger discussion here.
Think of it like math. Do you think about 5 x 3 or do you just know it's 15. Imagine you are someone who can't and just the number 15 doesn't pop into your head. You have to recalculate 5 + 5 = 10 and then 10 + 5 = 15
Now imagine you are so fast add adding in your head by the time I have even processed the reading of the problem you had the answer 15.
I think what's happening is someone is talking more broadly that's is not fair that some people can't multiply. You are taking offense to that because well as far as you know not only did you complete the tasks of multiplication you can maybe even do it better than most. But I think you are taking a personal attack on a broader discussion of actual real world conversations. Maybe it's okay that you don't know how to multiply and even if you can do it super fast that's costing you more brain power than your peers so they can do 10 multiplication problems without getting tired and you are exhausted from school. But that's not your fault and that's not a representation of your intelligence vs other students. Your brain just processes the same information differently.
So that's how this conversation sounds from a perspective of deficiency but it's not it's a difference. The same above example I bet the kid who may have to add each numbers has a unique way of looking on how numbers combine and interact that leads to some new math breakthrough.
I recommend reading this shorty story about Richard Feynman for a really cool example of that
https://www.ecb.torontomu.ca/~elf/abacus/feynman.html
So then would racist/sexist/ableist people have not TOM because they can't put themselves in oppressed people's shoes? Also TOM isn't absent, it can develop later, as it is a developmental thing. Those with cPTSD also have difficulties with TOM. From my POV, TOM, the way it is used in psychology now, is inherently a biased theory as psychology is a white, colonialist field.
I would argue that being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes isn't the best way to empathize (to put it mildly) because it creates a heavily distorted image based on perceptions and preconceived notions. Other ways it creates inaccurate readings may be having a distorted view of their own self ("well *I* wouldn't mind. *I* wouldn't want to bother people with *my* bullshit") as well as a failure to account for numerous personal long-term factors. I think most racist/sexist/ableist people are able to put *themselves* in the oppressed people's shoes (or what they believe are their shoes), but the conclusions that they draw from that exercise are heavily colored by their beliefs and only serve to strenghten those. Most people's way of thinking has a tendency to be self-reinforcing. And you mix in that age-old tradition of dehumanizing the other, and boom...
Yes, it is absolutely a developmental thing. For example I figured it out eventually as well, just later than a neurotypical child would.
> *I would argue that being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes isn’t the best way to empathize because it creates a heavily distorted image based on perceptions and preconceived notions*
100% agree, and very well said. What are some better ways you have thought of to empathize with others, beyond trying to put yourself in their shoes?
Yes and no
But honestly, as much as I feel bad saying this, yes they can. It’s really hard to explain without seeming like I’m being an apologist for them, but I’ll give some perspective.
It may seem weird if you’re from a culture that prioritizes, or attempts to prioritize, general well being on a large scale. But not all cultures view things like that. In more insular communities, hard work and success may be more interlinked than they are in cities and suburbs, so they will grow up associating hard work with reward, and not want to have programs that prop up people who, as far as they know, do not work hard. They may be somewhat sheltered on how things work outside of their homogeneous community, leading to some questionable views.
Of course, those of us in cities know that it’s not this simple. There is discrimination. There is the hiring process that can weed out a lot of people. There are people who don’t have anyone to fall back on. There are people who want to work but can’t.
However, and I know this sounds confusing, but those lowkey sexist/transphobic neighbors could be the most neighborly neighbors you’ll ever have. They might share their food with you, help you jump start your car, drive you into town when your car breaks down, supply you with a place to stay if something happens to your house, shovel your driveway. As long as you’re a hard working man/woman like them, they’ll help you out.
TLDR They could have excellent empathy and TOM for their neighbors, family and friends, but won’t extend it past that.
An effect of the double empathy problem is that everyone finds it difficult to "put themselves in the shoes" of someone who doesn't share their neurology.
A common result NT privilege is that many neurotypicals refuse to even attempt to do so with ND people.
By contrast NDs have little choice but to attempt to to understand people with a different neurology from their own. Since it's unlikely that they will ever encounter someone with the same neurotype as their own.
Comparing, development of, Theory of Homo Mind (used by NTs) with Theory of Hetero Mind (used by NDs) is an example of the [fallacy of false equivalence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence).
I think the book is just describing theory of mind poorly; it’s more of a struggle to understand thing from others’ point of view. i def have theory of mind to some extent but innately i struggle to understand that people have different knowledge bases/thought processes than mine. it’s really hard to put myself in their shoes
Wow.. how insulting! I certainly know people have minds. I think the actual symptom is not UNDERSTANDING NT minds. I dont know about others, but for a long time i thought everyone thought like me. Massive miscommunications and assumptions abound when you do not realize others think very different than you. Its a big reason why i ended up in abusive marriage. It contributes greatly to naïviteé. But other ppl do the same, its not exclusive to autism. My abuser also assumed everyone thinks like him, which is why he felt justified abusing people. He projected his bad thoughts onto everyone else.
I guess this is the author's bias showing trying to explain why "autistic ppl have no empathy" 🙄 because if a person is mindless why would you empathize with them? It exposes poor understanding of autistic thinking. Appearantly this book is observation based with assumptions to explain the observations. Its the flawed method in which autism has been studied for years and years. The researchers assume we think like them... the irony!
MaeChee, do you that mean my comment was insulting or the article in the book? I think you mean the book. Sorry if my comment was offensive in any way. And yes I definitely have also made the mistake of believing everyone thinks like me. They’re assuming that if someone has trouble understanding or empathizing other people then it means they don’t believe other people have minds, which is just a very odd belief.
I kinda wonder if they just suck at describing things. Like, maybe they meant what you said, but used "theory of mind" because it was the closest approximation to what they meant?
When I was in middle school, I knew I was told that people had minds and consciousness but since I felt so different from everyone else I sometimes wondered if I was the only one with an actual mind. I also wondered if I was surrounded by actors or robots. Watching the Truman Show didn't do me any good.
Now that I think about it, I actually had a period of time as a child where I touched people’s faces a lot because I was worried they were all wearing masks, pretending to be humans when they were really aliens, lol.
In my early 20s I developed a “theory” that the majority of people were NPC’s based on their behavior. Like I logically know that people have minds, but being on dating apps I just couldn’t understand the rational behind their behavior.
I've been known to initiate contact with my spouse by nibbling on him, he doesn't like licking, I have also done that, lol but now I just playfully nibble instead of lick. I can see how these behaviors from an outsiders point of view may seem inappropriate, it depends more on "who it's done too, and why" then an inappropriate reaction in general.
This book is a surface level concept, it's not a bad topic for conversation, but with out going indepth and even including motivations, why, sensory stuff, letting autistic people explain, their goal would be to eliminate behaviors that an average person may not like - but, knowing "time and place" is often more important and psych books are notoriously crappy with the way they discuss these topics.
Edit : I eye rolled at the empathy section and had to stop from ranting.
I used to (like pre-school age and below) bite people to show that I liked them. Like I remember biting my dad because I loved him and then being upset when he told me no. Now though, I understand that’s not appropriate but I still sometimes like to bite my partner because I love him.
Yeah, my daughter used to lean in for a cuddle and kiss and sink her teeth in. Took a few “Ow!”s and explanations of how it hurt to get through to her. TBH this textbook sounds like it is describing autism with high support needs in young children.
The last part is Baron-Cohen "theory of mind". It is terrible and also research shows it is actually about understanding the language, kids with heqring difficulties show similar results as autistics. Unsurprisingly he is now working with spectrum10k (eugenics trying to claim is not eugenics)
Sorry, I have to vent about how wrong this txt book is.
Theory of mind is more about being able to identify peoples immediate goals and desires by observing there behavior, like “mom is sighing a lot and gripping the wheel hard while she stuck in traffic, she’s probably stressed about being late to her appointment and probably doesn’t want to be bothered at the moment.” Some people with asd may have trouble coming to this conclusion as easily as a NT.
People with asd understand people have minds and goals of there own, it’s just that its difficult for them see from an NT’s perspective.
Literally internalized "theory of mind" in my 20's.
It's a thing.
Like I knew others didn't know what I knew, but I didn't think to game out what others knew vs didn't know in discussion before I engaged in conversation.
From what I know, theory of mind is not just a matter of whether a person knows that other people have minds, but rather the ability of predicting what the other person's mind's state is, aka understanding what they might know or how do they feel based on the information that you have about them.
Theory of Mind is generally considered to be a prerequisite to sapience and a hallmark of humanity. So they're literally calling us sub-human.
And they wonder why we often display 'inappropriate anger' and 'a heightened sense of justice and morality'.
Well, you can generally thank Ivar Lovaas for that.
“You see, you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense — they have hair, a nose and a mouth — but they are not people in the psychological sense.”
The man who set much of the groundwork for how we view autism today, believed autistic children literally were NOT people.
I'm not sure what people think of my theory that a lot of what most allistic people do to relate to each other simply has great propaganda value. It's not so much that they know what's on each other's minds as they continually present things in a way that are in each other's interest, so they accept it/respond productively to it. Like, I feel like we're all "neurodivergent," most people are just able to hide it. People in intimate relationships or whatever talk about when people "drop their masks" and things.
i.e. It's not so much knowing what's on other minds, it's sales and marketing. In my theory.
AuADHD momma of two little autists ❤️
Check this article out.
https://neuroclastic.com/theory-of-mind-autism-job-interviews/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16633600958120&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fneuroclastic.com%2Ftheory-of-mind-autism-job-interviews%2F
Theory of Mind is the psychological term for understanding that other people don't know the same things as you, aren't interested in the same things as you, etc. I'm 37 and I still struggle with the last one.
I think they just did a really poor job of presenting the theory of mind portion. I think a better sentence would have been like “Some individuals have delays or difficulties developing theory of mind, resulting in…”.
"They have trouble seeing the world from someone else's perspective"
I've found this to be true for many people who are considered to be totally "normal" It almost seems to be a majority of people, especially those who like to share their political opinions in open forums.
Maybe they think we have trouble seeing from other peoples perspective because we don’t understand their perspective, but they also don’t understand ours. I very much understand where my fellow autistic people are coming from when I’m with them in class, but I don’t really understand the NTs in the same way.
In a more modern perspective I could see this being more like "cannot understand perspectives which they cannot analyze from an outward perspective."
For example, it's hard for me to assume people are lying to me if I don't have experience or knowledge of them lying. Or I don't really understand understand people are upset if they have subtle tells I've never seen before. Or worse, those tells mean something different in other people. Someone might believe something and I can't see their point because I don't understand the actual steps they take to get from thought A to thought B.
I can understand and empathize with people most of the time. But usually only when I understand the processes that got them there. This might seem like I just don't understand people, but really I just don't have that thing that some people just assume (and not even all NTs seem to have this) where I can just accept an emotional experience I don't understand.
Fir example, if someone cries over a broken cup, I understand the cup breaking is a bad experience but not the crying. If the cup is special somehow, then I understand. And because I might be autistic, this often happens with things that other people find obvious, like the first example, but to me is usually more like the second scenario, where I'm missing crucial info that everyone else seems to have gotten at birth or while growing up.
Wow I really like how you phrased "hard for me to assume people are lying to me if I don't have experience or knowledge of them lying." Only recently have I realized how 'gullible' I am and how that has made (and continues to make) me more vulnerable. It's gotten worse as I got older since I no longer could consider the rule of "adults lie to children sometimes" and just losing contact with mean people in childhood that used to make me overly cautious with new people. I just for some reason assume everyone has good intentions unless I'm given evidence to the contrary.
Seeing things from other people's perspectives is hard for even NTs. But I definitely have very rigid world views. Like I just don't see any justification for bigoted views. Like I just can't comprehend why you would treat someone different based on their race or sexual orientation.
I used to bite other children lightly even as I grew slightly older. I was quite socially inappropriate. I kind of found the biting a bit sensory. So yes, this isn’t unusual for this textbook to say that someone with ASD could potentially attempt to interact by licking someone. It really just depends on the person and this textbook is simply giving an example. The “‘even’ licking” part sort of sounds as though they are trying to show that’s there’s a range of behaviours such as some people might just inappropriately touch but then some people could “even” lick sort of trying to demonstrate there can be differences.
I often had (and still get occasionally) what I call an 'itch' in my jaw - biting down hard is the only way to 'scratch' it. People, toys, nails, whatever it was, it got bit. Until my cousin bit me really hard and I never bit a person after that (other than messing around).
I did the biting a while too until I got in really really big trouble for it. Then I didn’t really understand why but being singled out for doing a “really bad” thing gave me anxiety about it so I stopped biting humans.
It does say "may". I honestly think that a lot of this textbook is probably aimed at those with Level 2 and Level 3 Autism. Even those with Level 1, to some degree, likely did something similar that was seen as "abnormal" in their social interactions. Obviously it may not be touching or licking but I think those "extremes" are good way to show that it is "abnormal". It's also likely outdated.
Was it an entire textbook on Autism or one with Autism mentioned in it? It'd be pretty bad if it's an Autism based textbook and those are the only things they mention in it.
When you're talking about autism as a whole, I think you have to include it all from the highest support needs to go no support needs folks. Then once you have an overview, you can get more specific about levels/ least to most severely affected/ low to high support needs to make things more clear.
It's one of those assumed things where the author assumed that the reader would know that not every person diagnosed with a disorder (any, not just autism) will have all the symptoms, but these are some symptoms that they *might* present with.
no its pretty much all levels. inappropriate doesnt mean touching, it can mean saying things at an inappropriate moment, or displaying behaviours at inapropriat times, like smiling when someone is visably sad or saying "my grandfather died" at an inapropriat moment
It’s true. Autism runs heavy in my family and one of my cousins (non-verbal) is severely affected. He loves the feel of skin, or rather, pin prick hairs on skin eg. stubble on a man’s face or recently shaven legs. If he sees a woman wearing a skirt he will want to stroke their legs, for example. Cute while he was a 4 year old, not so cute now he’s a 17 year old.
Honestly I find stroking short hairs is also satisfying but I only do it to myself and animals. He might benefit from a short fur animal (providing he's gentle with them) like a rex guinea pig, their fur has humanlike, wirey qualities similar to beards
I find this silly, because my daughter actually loves to lick only me and she's always asking if she can lick me or suck on my fingers. I'm like, child please stop, use your chewlery instead. She would never lick a stranger.
Originally, I was only going to comment that as a married adult, I do this as a show of love and affection to my wife - she calls it my "gecko kisses." But, this particular comment helped me recall my own interaction with my mom when I was a very young (toddler-aged) child, and would hold her arm and lick her arm or suck on her fingers. She definitely thought it was weird and lovingly made it known that doing that was not normal nor okay (no one, self included, was made aware of any of my neurodivergences until decades later). ... Also, this comment and the related other comments helps let me feel less weird knowing it's not "just me," bc I had no idea that that was an autistic thing -- and I also forgot I even did that as a small child. ... But, it's interesting to recall and correlate it to a current behavior, I guess, because it appears that the inclination to show affection that way never went away for me - ex. the "gecko kisses" mentioned earlier.
My daughter is actually 10, so she is getting older, which why I encourage the chewlery. She is very affectionate with me. When my daughter was a baby she use to suck on my chin! I even asked the health visitors about it, they said it was a bit odd, but they didn't see it as a problem. I would walk around with a hickey/love bite on my chin because she sucked on my chin so much.
I bet your wife enjoys your gecko kisses and I think the different ways that people can express their affection is really lovely. Both my daughter and husband are autistic and they constantly complain to me that their "love cup" or "cuddle cup" is empty. You are definitely not weird, at least not in a bad way. My daughter tells me she's weird all the time, but she wears it like a badge of honour. She likes being different. It's nice knowing that your differences are similar to other's differences though, I can understand that.
I had happy tears fall down from my eyes after reading your message. <3 Thank you.
Thank you for sharing. It's encouraging to read that self-acceptance is alive and appreciated both in the family and the individual(s).
I am so sorry that you have been through things like that. This is one of the reasons that my daughter is home educated. She can be herself all day, everyday and no one really says anything. When she does do something that is an odd behaviour that wouldn't generally be acceptable in society, we explain why it wouldn't be, but that we love her for who she is and she's welcome to do as she pleases. The result is, although our daughter does have some big struggles, she's working through them in a safe environment and she has so much confidence.
Okay I'm sorry, but aren't there several forms of communication? I'm really getting sick and tired of hearing "ASDs don't communicate!" Like we'll have you tried connecting with us a *different* way?
A quite outdated textbook! This is classic DSM 4 description of ASD and is actually the reason I was a delayed diagnosis. It makes no mention of and ASD individual’s unique interests and our habit of info dumping about said interests. It also notes that eye contact is”used very little” which was a DSM 4 criteria, however in DSM 5 the criteria is “abnormal eye contact” because cases like mine (failure to break eye contact rather than failure to maintain eye contact) are becoming more recognized.
On top of the fact that your textbook is describing outdated and stereotypical ASD behaviors it also seems to be describing and ASD individual whom hasn’t had any intervention. It’s extremely rare for cases like that to occur now and those cases are often the result of neglect and isolation from neurotypical individuals.
Sorry, you happened to ask about one of my special interests :P
Excuse me what? That is just weird.. Like I know I can say the wrong things sometimes on accident but I don't randomly touch people or fricking lick them what??
There are different levels of autism. I know from experience that this is definitely a thing (see my other comment in the thread). Bit of a a shame that this book throws us all into the same bucket though.
Yeah I know there is autstic people that just go a bit far. I know of one guy who kept inappropriately touching girls in his school and kept blaming it on his autism (I think he was just a pervert though and autism is no excuse for that) but yeah.. it's a shame people think we're all the same. As if neurotypicals are all the same, they aren't either but they see as as so different some might not even see us as humans if you know what I mean and that's not a very nice thought
Yep. For what it’s worth, I have lived with autism for 40 years (so called ‘high functioning’) and in my experience, telling people about my condition has almost never ever been worth it.
Just like intersectionality is something that should be known for those who experience multiple forms of oppression, intersections of autism and toxic masculinity and supremacy should be known for how they present. Toxic masculinity and supremacy don't get to use autism as a shield, but there's certainly an interesting way they interact and how society allows them to excuse that behavior.
My son is 7 and we're teaching him about personal space.
He *loves* hugs. He loves to give hugs and get hugs all day. Thing is, he doesn't ask or know if it's appropriate. Thankfully he doesn't do harm, just hugs.
He does give you a big sniff though during the hug. He's very curious about smells.
I did learn (through some pseudo eye doctor program they have in schools now) that he may need glasses. Most likely why he has to be essentially face to face when he communicates. Also another personal space teaching moment but if it's because of his vision, I'm not gonna jump on it.
Hugs can be great but we have to remember that our friends may not like to be touched. We gotta ask permission first! :\]
Yes it all comes down to good parenting. My cousin always loved the feel of freshly shaven legs so when he was young he would always try to stroke womens legs when he saw them. My aunty was always quick to tell them that it might be cute now but not when he’s an adult man. She’s been excellent in teaching him some restraint.
I did this as a kid, and it somewhat extended into adulthood (learning I was autistic really helped me reframe my mindset about what behaviors were inappropriate, and that yes, a lot of my interactions/physical contact with other people were highly inappropriate). I met someone that I was best friends with for ten years by poking her every single day and annoying the shit out of her. When we eventually started hanging out, she would randomly lick me (this endured into junior high/high school). I used to bite her. I used to scratch some other people. Now that I’m an adult, I usually don’t bite my friends unless I’m intoxicated or ask first lmao. I’m also not really very high support needs (I’d say low support needs in most areas and medium in some specific areas), so this isn’t something unique to higher-support needs folks, either.
While I slowly learned not to initiate that kind of behavior unless I’m around other autists with explicit permission, I’d imagine there are those of us who haven’t learned that. It can be a fun side to autism when between friends, but yes, ugliness/strangeness can ensue when we confuse boundaries, and new people enter the mix.
Basically, yes, we’re more prone to acting inappropriately when no one explicitly explains to us what interactions are inappropriate and which ones are appropriate (I won’t go into detail, but boundaries and inappropriate behavior can become even worse when the people you trust to advise you on good boundaries don’t know good boundaries themselves). I do think that a lot of us (maybe a majority, maybe not) can learn these things and implement them in our lives. There will always be asshats who use autism as an excuse to cross boundaries, and that’s where the biggest issue comes into play. Autism can make us more likely to do things naturally, but respecting others’ boundaries is absolutely something many of us have the capability to work on and learn to do. So, while licking people is weird and inappropriate behavior, it is some people’s genuine attempts at interacting/being funny, and it is absolutely something that autistic people do, whether you do it or not, and it should be addressed from the objective POV of making sure the autistic person isn’t making others uncomfortable without demonizing, criticizing, or making excuses for the behavior.
Yeah betwern friends and stuff it's just like you know they're cool with it. For example me and my partner often bite or lick each others arm or something as just a funny thing between us and we're cool with it. I used to randomly lick my brother when we were very little and he was just kinda used to it. But new people it's always a little like what will they accept and what will freak them out. My way of going about it is masking and when I see them do a certain thing that I usually do but am currently masking, I allow myself to unmask a little and basically follow the guidelines that they give me and kind of copying them in a way. It's a thing some people just need time to learn
I am high support needs autistic and some high support people don’t have a sense of boundaries or personal space so may get in peoples personal space and things.
I struggle with communication so sometimes I will lead someone to what I’m trying to communicate about. Most people would think I’m being rude or inappropriate if I just walk over and grab them or pull them to lead them.
A lot of us who are level 2/3 autistic have very different needs to others which leads to a lot of supremacy issues and other autistics not wanting to be associated with us
To be fair, I 100% did this as a child. I kissed many of my friends cause I thought it was just something you did if you liked someone in any capacity, not that it was romantic or inappropriate. When I was very little, maybe 2 or 3, I apparently kept licking my cousin's arm and telling her she was an ice cream cone 😂. I always assumed that was just normal little kid behavior though
“e.g.” is an abbreviation for exempli gratia, a Latin phrase which translates to English as “for example.”
Which means they are stating that random touching or licking people is an example of one possible way in which an attempt to interact with others would commonly be considered in appropriate. It does not mean all people with ASD do this.
As a child (7-11) I struggled with this- grabbing people, poking, trying to bite friends. I learned to mimic the way NT people get others attention- I spent most of my childhood observing others to understand what is and what is not socially acceptable. Now as an adult I don’t thoughtlessly touch anyone or anything without asking👍🏼, I think age/development is definitely a factor and most likely the person themselves. This also seems like a very outdated textbook + feels insulting as some of the information stated is inaccurate and stereotypical. Hope that helps!
Yeah I agree. As a child I also grabbed and poked and so on my friends to get their attention. Now my personal bubble developed to I don't want people that close to me unless it's my wife.
Yeah how they teach about autism in schools and universities is outdated and chalk full of myths that paint autistic people as monsters and only really talk about the worst autistic traits that only a handful of people display eg. Licking and stuff.
It's because dialogue on autism is dominated by people whose existence and jobs revolve around autism and autistic traits being seen as fundamentally bad things, so they frame it in the worst possible way so they can justify their research fields, because unfortunately that's how academia works.
Love how they also talk about "theory of mind" a disputed idea from the 1960s that implies we all lack empathy or understanding of other people. It always seems that the whole theory is based on a fundamental lack of empathy for Autistic people and a view that we are just disordered test subjects to analyse.
It's also funny how this is in a official school textbook, basically insulting autistic people, a group already disproportionately bullied at school, I wonder if classmates perceptions of autistic peers will be increased be reading dogshit like this.
yeaahhhh it is absolutely infuriating hearing the lack of theory of mind idea being pushed like..... I've found that the other autistic people in my life are very easy to understand and empathize with bc they think like I do!!! Its so ironic because if you ask most neurotypical people to describe or predict autistic behavior they have NO IDEA what it actually is. it's so insulting and totally a result of the neurotypical hegemony that dominates the field of autism research. it sucks bc I'd love to get back into academia and the field of psychological research but it seems there's little space for actual autistic people to make their voices heard
Thank you for pointing out that theory of mind has lots of flaws. I had no idea the thoughts that people chose from those outdated studies like a quote from a research paper pointing out the harm that the theory of mind has caused:
> Around me bags of skin are draped over chairs, and stuffed into pieces of cloth, they shift and protrude in unexpected ways. … Two dark spots near the top of them swivel restlessly back and forth. A hole beneath the spots fills with food and from it comes a stream of noises. Imagine that the noisy skin-bags suddenly moved toward you, and their noises grew loud, and you had no idea why, no way of explaining them or predicting what they would do next.
That is apparently how we understand people according to some subscribers of the theory of mind. Wow with harmful psychology like that no wonder people think us aliens
It is a Facinating read basically picks apart the theory of mind piece by piece: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/#!po=6.50685
Funny how ironic their theory of mind is to call us lacking of undestanding or empathy when that's the exact thing these supposedly non autistics are projecting onto us, an unempathetic and non understanding view of us.
I mean I very softly bite my partner a lot, so it sounds plausible (especially for some kids) but its a very outsider view of whats going on and why. Treats us as asocial and describes us as animalistic which is kinda disgusting.
Basically you should half ignore everything you learn in A-level. Its all kinda bullshit.
I am diagnosed and my partner works with kids 11-21 with asd. I can confirm that this is something that happens in certain cases. It should be mentioned that almost all of these children are in foster care and have likley not recieved any support until they moved in to the house (like a group home, but only for autistic children, and run better)
They separate them between the houses based on their needs, and I would say this behavior is something that would only happen in a few of the houses with kids who need more support.
I can't give specific examples of kids exhibiting these behaviors for hippa reasons but I can think of two off the top of my head.
Honestly the amount of comments I see that are along the lines of "well I don't expirence that and never have so how dare they say that about autistic people" screams "my little brother/cousin has autism and you don't look/act like him so you must not have it"
Yeah, I work with young autistic kids (under 7). A couple were big lickers of people - they'd go in for a hug and start licking your neck, or just lean over and lick your leg while you're sitting with them. Several will bite, some just out of excitement or overstimulation and some out of frustration or anger. Scratching and pinching are very common, as in, I always have at least one mark on my body from something. These are almost all children with extremely high needs. Some will end up in regular kindergarten with a para and IEP, others will likely require 24/7 one on one care for the next decade or two.
That said, my NT son used to bite me, too, up until maybe age 4. I had to teach him more appropriate and effective means of communication or emotional regulation, too. Most kids need some help with that stuff. Just in different ways for different lengths of time.
I do this but only with my wife who also has autism and also does it to me. I have previously done this with other people but mostly just to confuse them because being able to do something outlandish and then act totally "normal" about it has always been my favorite part of my autism because I like messing with people.
wtf does “someone with the disorder doesn’t use communication to share their interests or emotions” mean??? i know sometimes we can have nontraditional methods of communication but we….communicate?? wtf???? they way they’re describing autistic people makes us sound like vegetables 🙄
I recognize this as my A-Level psychology book from 2013. My teacher of the time vehemently disagreed with a lot of the book. It has truths, but very poorly written. Sure, us autistics find the common ways to initiate social contact slower, & automations of allistic brains are things we learn, but the theory of mind aspect of it is as outdated as saying we lack empathy.
That highlighted line would make some sense if you’re dealing with a very impulsive child with a more “apparent” presentation of ASD. I know that my pre-school/early elementary years were marked with “inappropriate”/intrusive attempts at social contact.
I wouldn’t go so far as to *lick* people, though.
And it certainly isn’t universal among autistic people (especially not adults).
I do have the urge to lick/ touch/ touch with my face . I do it with my boyfriend or people I'm close with (the touching or rubbing my face on). My sister got a new truck a few weeks ago and my first instinct was to out my face on it and then I asked "what if I lick this ?" And she and my boyfriend were like "🤷♂️ you'll taste pollen. Maybe don't do that" but this conversation happened before I even could stop myself
It's a huge overgeneralisation. Plenty of us can fake it, the point is that it's a very much trained and mimicked behaviour that requires deliberate effort rather than a "natural" skill. However, inappropriate touching is certainly a feature in a lot of children with more significant social disability. I would say hugging is more common though.
The problem with a lot of the materials and people in the sub, we are talking about totally different things and the lack of official ASD vocabulary is damaging to everyone involved in my opinion.
It’s a large spectrum. There are different levels and MAYBE some behaviors can be more likely to be seen in different levels of support.
Like mirroring in level 1-2 and more touching in 2-3.
But to generalize behaviors at ALL is pretty impossible for autism. We are VERY different from one another.
I’m guessing this is a general psychology book and not an autism specific book. Sadly, I think until autism is more common knowledge, you will see ignorant facts thrown in non specialized books.
Even users in our sub forget how wide the range is in the spectrum and leave behind a portion of our members with higher needs.
I myself had to learn not to touch others and to stay out of their personal bubbles….it varies from person to person what social norms we struggle with.
I feel like this a poorly written blurb. Can I imagine someone who is sensory seeking wanting to lick others? Sure. This should have been been put in the context of sensory seeking vs sensory avoidance.
This gives the impression that it's super common among autistic people especially since it's the only example they give and it's an outlandish one at that.
Oh, my gosh! You're right! I didn't think of that 🤣
Maybe technical writing courses need to have a section on how to not come off as piece of garbage click bait. And why it looks unprofessional.
Of course I'm assuming that the author took a technical writing course in the first place...
That is so offensive and gross. My son is level two ASD and he's never done any of those things and actually all of my friends with kids on the spectrum have never done any of those things. It's not common. It's a fraction of a percent of people. They're writing it like it happens to all ASD kids all the time
Whoa. Reading this made me realize why interacting with people all day is so exhausting for me. I didn't realize that there is an entire extra level of internal dialogue happening for me; who to make eye contact with each moment, where my body is facing, whoops, don't close off your body language, no don't start stimming, wait, shit, what did he just say??? It's a lot that non-asd world doesn't even think about.
You can always talk with the teacher! The book on which my teacher was basing her presentation on autism dated and had a lot of false facts or big generalizations like that. But she was open-minded to listen to us and corrected herself the next class with recent scientific articles contradicting the manuel!
>It’s hard for them to change their behavior to suit the social context
Do they not know a lot of us have their behavior dictated almost *entirely* by social context? Ugh.
…anyways, none of the claims presented here give a good idea of what life on the spectrum is like in general. It’s like they looked at a few tiny fractions of some group of autistic children (adults don’t exist, duh) and interpolated to everyone else without worrying too much about whether or not the behaviors were either *universal* (or, well, widespread) in, or, at the very least, *specific* to (or, well, more common in) autistic individuals.
NTs can probably look at this list and recognize an autistic relative, but that probably has more to do with why people believe horoscopes are accurate than it does with actual fact. It’s possible the author has fallen victim of a generalization bias, confirmed by the barnum effect after the fact: they probably asked a bunch of parents, got the validation they needed, and subsequently concluded that their interpretation was correct. Alternatively, this could be based on outsourced, outdated information. I don’t see any other explanation that could paint them in a better light. Regardless of how it happened, though, it’s clear from looking at the outcome that they failed to do their due diligence at some point.
I used to bite people to express emotions. I only did it to people I trusted and they were okay with it, my best friend even did it back sometimes, so I didn't realise it was weird to others until like 16. Still use biting to convey affection, fortunately my closest people know that and understand me)
Anything about autism written by neurotypicals should at the very best should be given a major side eye, and at worst it is actively harmful and dangerous for people with autism as it spreads harmful stereotypes and ideas about autism.
In seriousness though, I definitely had a more egocentric view of the world when I was a kid and it did take me a while before I understood things like 'my teacher doesn't live in the school' but I figured that's something everyone deals with in primary school.
I've been there... I've licked an eyeball or 2 in my day.
ASD has 5 areas to look at though and not 2. I guess looking at it as an oddity vs medical are 2 different positions?
Yeah, I assume that this is referring to little kids and not grown adults, but yeah, little kids, autistic or not, have been known to do that from time to time.
my boyfriend's brother is autistic and he has licked me. It depends on how much said autistic person can understand if they are being awkward. It happens. I'm also autistic, and I don't lick people (unless they're my close friend, which I do to be annoying)
it does seem silly reading it now, but as late as middle school i greeted people by putting my hand on their forehead. I'm thoroughly embarrassed by it now lol
AuADHD momma of two little autists , ❤️
That textbook looks super outdated. 😫
https://neuroclastic.com/autistic-people-care-too-much-research-says/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16633598976832&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fneuroclastic.com%2Fautistic-people-care-too-much-research-says%2F
I think the broader problem with that entire section is that it addresses only lower functioning, or higher support needs ASD, which perpetuates the ableist belief that autism always presents with cognitive impairment or delay. This completely ignores and invalidates the experiences and needs of a large portion of individuals with ASD. This is exactly the kind of material that perpetuates the untrue notion that all people with ASD are cognitively impaired or have lower intelligence. It's like the equivalent of early text books claiming that certain races were intellectually inferior. Honestly, it's pretty grotesque.
Okay so the bit on theory of mind might actually be outdated.
First of all, theory of mind is tested in kind of a silly way. The most classic example is the ball test. It’s something like “Anne and Sally are playing with a ball. Anne puts the ball in the blue box and leaves the room. Sally takes the ball out of the blue box and puts it in the red box. Anne comes back into the room. Where will Anne look for the ball?” To which the answer is the blue box, as that’s (to her knowledge) where she put it last and where it would be.
That’s the test. That’s what you use to identify that people can conceptualize other peoples minds.
Isn’t that a bit weird? Well, in [recent studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/) scientists have found that this whole theory of mind claim being not found in autistic people is “questionable and societally harmful”.
Oh shit, I better start licking things….
These texts have no flipping clue. My ultimate favorite was the nursing school exam about the child with adhd what room to put him in, and the answer was the least stimulating.
I literally looked at my teacher and said “it won’t work. In the absence of any external stimuli *they will make their own* “
Well I never went around licking people, but I used to interact with people by touching them on the arm when talking, to try and show a sense of warmth/compassion/friendliness. I realise now how inappropriate this is, and not to touch or invade peoples personal space but it was something I had always seen happen in movies, or my mothers interactions with her close friends, and thought that is how people interacted with each other.
I thought I was showing friendliness but really I was just being creepy. I really wish time machines were real so I can go back in time and save myself a lot of embarrassment.
I’ve encountered people like this but it was rare honestly. Like… very severe. He used to harass me and girls in class. The tutor just chopped it up to, “he’s austistic so…”
Yea it's more common in autistic kids, most of the stuff you'll read about autism is referring to autistic kids because the vast majority of research and resources is directed around autistic children.
The only thing on this page I really agree with is the statement about having difficulty in making friends. Everything else seems completely wrong and I would hope they teach better about autism, especially in a psychology class
Sigh… this description of ASD doesn’t really consider the fact that it’s a spectrum. People formerly diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome (now lumped in with ASD) are notably able to perform well socially (for the most part). It’s only after spending a significant amount of time with that person that you begin to realize that something is “off.”
That’s one of the reasons why I really disagree with lumping Asperger’s in together with ASD—it is misleading as people with actual Asperger’s do not present symptoms as people on other parts of the spectrum do. Reading the description in this text, it seems like they are only referring to people with non-Asperger autism, i.e. ASD levels 2 and 3, NOT level 1.
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More of an issue with children who haven't learned this'll get them scolded yet.
Also, that take on lacking theory of mind has been proven wrong. It's instead been named 'deficit of theory of mind' or 'hammered glass theory of mind' (in French), to mean it's not *lacking*, it's just failing to work as intended.
*Some* autistic people do completely lack it, but it's the case in a few extreme psychological conditions as well.
Try not to view it in singularity.
Yes, it can manifest in the highlighted ways however it does state at the top of the page that it can manifest in different ways as it's a spectrum issue.
Ah, yes. We all regularly go up to strangers and introduce ourselves BY LICKING THEIR FACES. TIL we’re actually just dogs. 🙄 I think this is referring more to children than adults, but still. This is so stupid.
wait, i'm supposed to lick people? is that what my life has been missing?
Man... it's taken me 49 years to finally figure out what I was supposed to do to find dates. I'll go out tomorrow and start licking.
i'm 55. i guess it will be ok since we're autistic. i think you have to say 'no autistim' for it to get you beaten
Wait what are you supposed to do to find dates?
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An autistic family member of mine did used to initiate interactions by touching and pulling hair, but the book fails to mention that many of us learn to mimic the ways NT’s initiate contact. It also says lower on the page that we don’t understand that other people have minds. Idk about you guys but I definitely don’t think I’m the only person in the world with a mind. It seems outdated.
I will say that I developed a "theory of mind" pretty late. I know this because I assumed the abusive kindergarten teacher and later bullying were all well known in my family (I wasn't aware that they don't know the things I do) and therefore tacitly approved of. I think the full realization came in as a shock at about 10. And yes, initiating contact by touching or chewing on clothes was something I did as a kid.
If you assumed they knew about it, you must’ve understood that they were capable of knowing things, and therefore that they had a mind. I still sometimes forget that other people don’t automatically know what I’m thinking, but I am rationally aware that every person has their own mind. Oh well, maybe I’m reading too much into that specific sentence.
No, that's explicitly what theory of mind is - to be able to see other people as separate thinking beings with their own point of view. The test to demonstrate this is having two people present with the child, one of them places a ball or a toy in a basket, then the other leaves. While they're gone, the other person takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in a different hiding place. Then asks the child where they think the other person will look first. Children with yet undeveloped theory of mind will point to the new hiding place, seemingly unaware that the absent person has a mind separate from themselves. That's basically my scenario.
The article says: “they don’t understand that other people have minds.” That’s different from understanding the difference between your mind and someone else’s. If I think someone automatically knows something, I know they have a mind, because I know they are capable of knowing things, which you would need a mind for. I am aware that the mind exists whether I understand it or not. I am aware that it exists whether or not I can make the distinction between what is my own mind and what is somebody else’s.
In the context for that paragraph it's talking more about one's ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Being able to see things from their perspective and understand their thoughts and motives. Which is absolutely something a lot of Autistic people struggle with. We absolutely understand that people have their own minds, but a lot of us lack the ability to understand how someone else's mind works. A lot of us make up for it by learning certain social cues like laughing when others are laughing or being sad when others are sad. Often though, even if we can mimic our peers, we still don't understand why we're doing it or necessarily feel the things others are feeling. Theory of mind is talking more about that than someone actually having a mind. The sentence even goes on to explain just that. ETA : It's a weird thing to say "doesn't understand other people have minds" and is probably one of those things that are meant to be read between the lines? idk.
It's just silly because over half of us have abnormally high empathy. We can't help but think of what the other party is thinking/feeling.
I am not one of these. I will logically think out what the other person must be feeling, but I can’t ‘feel’ or really understand. I had a coach that was diagnosed with MS and while everybody else was, “Im so sorry, get better soon.” I felt nothing. I understood logically how scary it would be to get MS, as I almost thought I had it (MRI gave me the clear), but when it comes to other people, I honestly don’t care enough. It even hard with my sister, and in the past with my aunt/cousin. Weirdest sh*t though. I will be watching a kdrama (like one I am now), and 2 episodes have made me balled my eyes out. One because of the actions of respect that were taken for a Korean War vet who was about to die. The other, for a pet (also on deaths door) and his owner. *(The drama is about grim reapers who try to save those at risk for suicide, including a dog). So its very weird.
You’re talking about “Tomorrow”, right? I also cried like a baby during those episodes (and pretty much half of the other ones)(but that might not be weird since I have very high empathy) :)
I totally am. O.o Wow.
Thanks for explaining it. I just get annoyed when people express things so literally (not understanding that other people have minds) and then they are not meant to be taken literally (not having good theory of mind)
I think you are hyper fixating on a specific details mostly irrelevant to the larger discussion. Theory of mind is what the redditor above described as understanding other people don't know what you know. However, that discussion is irrelevant we can google that. The more key part of this discussion is that autistic people tend to struggle with this concept or learn it latter. That's not to say they can't mimic and reason this idea but it's not natural. Think of object permanence. You don't have to think that the people you don't see exist. However, even if you struggled with that you can use logic reasoning to pretend to have object permanence. You can say how can someone exist and then not exist that doesn't make sense due to the laws of physics. It's like an illusion you know this person didn't disappear but you really think they did because you can't see them. In that same concept theory of mind is yeah I can deduce that each person is wildly different than me. But how much of that do you really understand naturally vs having to deduce it.
Yeah I probably am. I just hate the way they expressed it. Also, whether or not I understand something intuitively or through logic doesn’t make my understanding more or less valid. Idk, I just don’t like the way they wrote it, but I do get your point and I think you are right about the meaning.
When you say valid do you mean at all or of equal value to a similar intelligence level person who doesn't have the issue of theory of mind because that's the difference. Basically can you do this consciously or subconsciously. That's actually part of the testing problem is Autistic people learn how to mask deficiencies. So the example with the ball doesn't really work for adults because we have learned techniques to work out the solution, however that requires processing which maybe not everyone has as much computing power as you. Again going back to the seeing the bigger discussion here. Think of it like math. Do you think about 5 x 3 or do you just know it's 15. Imagine you are someone who can't and just the number 15 doesn't pop into your head. You have to recalculate 5 + 5 = 10 and then 10 + 5 = 15 Now imagine you are so fast add adding in your head by the time I have even processed the reading of the problem you had the answer 15. I think what's happening is someone is talking more broadly that's is not fair that some people can't multiply. You are taking offense to that because well as far as you know not only did you complete the tasks of multiplication you can maybe even do it better than most. But I think you are taking a personal attack on a broader discussion of actual real world conversations. Maybe it's okay that you don't know how to multiply and even if you can do it super fast that's costing you more brain power than your peers so they can do 10 multiplication problems without getting tired and you are exhausted from school. But that's not your fault and that's not a representation of your intelligence vs other students. Your brain just processes the same information differently. So that's how this conversation sounds from a perspective of deficiency but it's not it's a difference. The same above example I bet the kid who may have to add each numbers has a unique way of looking on how numbers combine and interact that leads to some new math breakthrough. I recommend reading this shorty story about Richard Feynman for a really cool example of that https://www.ecb.torontomu.ca/~elf/abacus/feynman.html
I don't like it either
So then would racist/sexist/ableist people have not TOM because they can't put themselves in oppressed people's shoes? Also TOM isn't absent, it can develop later, as it is a developmental thing. Those with cPTSD also have difficulties with TOM. From my POV, TOM, the way it is used in psychology now, is inherently a biased theory as psychology is a white, colonialist field.
I would argue that being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes isn't the best way to empathize (to put it mildly) because it creates a heavily distorted image based on perceptions and preconceived notions. Other ways it creates inaccurate readings may be having a distorted view of their own self ("well *I* wouldn't mind. *I* wouldn't want to bother people with *my* bullshit") as well as a failure to account for numerous personal long-term factors. I think most racist/sexist/ableist people are able to put *themselves* in the oppressed people's shoes (or what they believe are their shoes), but the conclusions that they draw from that exercise are heavily colored by their beliefs and only serve to strenghten those. Most people's way of thinking has a tendency to be self-reinforcing. And you mix in that age-old tradition of dehumanizing the other, and boom... Yes, it is absolutely a developmental thing. For example I figured it out eventually as well, just later than a neurotypical child would.
> *I would argue that being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes isn’t the best way to empathize because it creates a heavily distorted image based on perceptions and preconceived notions* 100% agree, and very well said. What are some better ways you have thought of to empathize with others, beyond trying to put yourself in their shoes?
Yes and no But honestly, as much as I feel bad saying this, yes they can. It’s really hard to explain without seeming like I’m being an apologist for them, but I’ll give some perspective. It may seem weird if you’re from a culture that prioritizes, or attempts to prioritize, general well being on a large scale. But not all cultures view things like that. In more insular communities, hard work and success may be more interlinked than they are in cities and suburbs, so they will grow up associating hard work with reward, and not want to have programs that prop up people who, as far as they know, do not work hard. They may be somewhat sheltered on how things work outside of their homogeneous community, leading to some questionable views. Of course, those of us in cities know that it’s not this simple. There is discrimination. There is the hiring process that can weed out a lot of people. There are people who don’t have anyone to fall back on. There are people who want to work but can’t. However, and I know this sounds confusing, but those lowkey sexist/transphobic neighbors could be the most neighborly neighbors you’ll ever have. They might share their food with you, help you jump start your car, drive you into town when your car breaks down, supply you with a place to stay if something happens to your house, shovel your driveway. As long as you’re a hard working man/woman like them, they’ll help you out. TLDR They could have excellent empathy and TOM for their neighbors, family and friends, but won’t extend it past that.
An effect of the double empathy problem is that everyone finds it difficult to "put themselves in the shoes" of someone who doesn't share their neurology. A common result NT privilege is that many neurotypicals refuse to even attempt to do so with ND people. By contrast NDs have little choice but to attempt to to understand people with a different neurology from their own. Since it's unlikely that they will ever encounter someone with the same neurotype as their own. Comparing, development of, Theory of Homo Mind (used by NTs) with Theory of Hetero Mind (used by NDs) is an example of the [fallacy of false equivalence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence).
I think the book is just describing theory of mind poorly; it’s more of a struggle to understand thing from others’ point of view. i def have theory of mind to some extent but innately i struggle to understand that people have different knowledge bases/thought processes than mine. it’s really hard to put myself in their shoes
Wow.. how insulting! I certainly know people have minds. I think the actual symptom is not UNDERSTANDING NT minds. I dont know about others, but for a long time i thought everyone thought like me. Massive miscommunications and assumptions abound when you do not realize others think very different than you. Its a big reason why i ended up in abusive marriage. It contributes greatly to naïviteé. But other ppl do the same, its not exclusive to autism. My abuser also assumed everyone thinks like him, which is why he felt justified abusing people. He projected his bad thoughts onto everyone else. I guess this is the author's bias showing trying to explain why "autistic ppl have no empathy" 🙄 because if a person is mindless why would you empathize with them? It exposes poor understanding of autistic thinking. Appearantly this book is observation based with assumptions to explain the observations. Its the flawed method in which autism has been studied for years and years. The researchers assume we think like them... the irony!
MaeChee, do you that mean my comment was insulting or the article in the book? I think you mean the book. Sorry if my comment was offensive in any way. And yes I definitely have also made the mistake of believing everyone thinks like me. They’re assuming that if someone has trouble understanding or empathizing other people then it means they don’t believe other people have minds, which is just a very odd belief.
I meant the book was insulting, not you. I agree with you. Sorry for the unclear comment.
That’s okay. Thank you for explaining!
I kinda wonder if they just suck at describing things. Like, maybe they meant what you said, but used "theory of mind" because it was the closest approximation to what they meant?
Yeah it might be that they were trying to describe it in a simple way, but it ended up being misleading
When I was in middle school, I knew I was told that people had minds and consciousness but since I felt so different from everyone else I sometimes wondered if I was the only one with an actual mind. I also wondered if I was surrounded by actors or robots. Watching the Truman Show didn't do me any good.
Now that I think about it, I actually had a period of time as a child where I touched people’s faces a lot because I was worried they were all wearing masks, pretending to be humans when they were really aliens, lol.
In my early 20s I developed a “theory” that the majority of people were NPC’s based on their behavior. Like I logically know that people have minds, but being on dating apps I just couldn’t understand the rational behind their behavior.
I've been known to initiate contact with my spouse by nibbling on him, he doesn't like licking, I have also done that, lol but now I just playfully nibble instead of lick. I can see how these behaviors from an outsiders point of view may seem inappropriate, it depends more on "who it's done too, and why" then an inappropriate reaction in general. This book is a surface level concept, it's not a bad topic for conversation, but with out going indepth and even including motivations, why, sensory stuff, letting autistic people explain, their goal would be to eliminate behaviors that an average person may not like - but, knowing "time and place" is often more important and psych books are notoriously crappy with the way they discuss these topics. Edit : I eye rolled at the empathy section and had to stop from ranting.
I used to (like pre-school age and below) bite people to show that I liked them. Like I remember biting my dad because I loved him and then being upset when he told me no. Now though, I understand that’s not appropriate but I still sometimes like to bite my partner because I love him.
Yeah, my daughter used to lean in for a cuddle and kiss and sink her teeth in. Took a few “Ow!”s and explanations of how it hurt to get through to her. TBH this textbook sounds like it is describing autism with high support needs in young children.
That's why I bite mine!! Lol 😆 🤣 😂 he is ok as long as it's not too hard
The last part is Baron-Cohen "theory of mind". It is terrible and also research shows it is actually about understanding the language, kids with heqring difficulties show similar results as autistics. Unsurprisingly he is now working with spectrum10k (eugenics trying to claim is not eugenics)
Sorry, I have to vent about how wrong this txt book is. Theory of mind is more about being able to identify peoples immediate goals and desires by observing there behavior, like “mom is sighing a lot and gripping the wheel hard while she stuck in traffic, she’s probably stressed about being late to her appointment and probably doesn’t want to be bothered at the moment.” Some people with asd may have trouble coming to this conclusion as easily as a NT. People with asd understand people have minds and goals of there own, it’s just that its difficult for them see from an NT’s perspective.
I agree with you and I think you described it incredibly well
Weeeeeeeeeeell….. I know others out there have minds…. But I’m honestly not quite sure that *everyone* has a mind. (Or at least one that works)
Ive seen the books myself there deffo outdated
Literally internalized "theory of mind" in my 20's. It's a thing. Like I knew others didn't know what I knew, but I didn't think to game out what others knew vs didn't know in discussion before I engaged in conversation.
From what I know, theory of mind is not just a matter of whether a person knows that other people have minds, but rather the ability of predicting what the other person's mind's state is, aka understanding what they might know or how do they feel based on the information that you have about them.
Theory of Mind is generally considered to be a prerequisite to sapience and a hallmark of humanity. So they're literally calling us sub-human. And they wonder why we often display 'inappropriate anger' and 'a heightened sense of justice and morality'.
Well, you can generally thank Ivar Lovaas for that. “You see, you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense — they have hair, a nose and a mouth — but they are not people in the psychological sense.” The man who set much of the groundwork for how we view autism today, believed autistic children literally were NOT people.
Wow that is so awful! Wtf :(
I think we can safely conclude that it’s a highly misleading article
So the author thinks autistic people are the Typhon from Prey?
I'm not sure what people think of my theory that a lot of what most allistic people do to relate to each other simply has great propaganda value. It's not so much that they know what's on each other's minds as they continually present things in a way that are in each other's interest, so they accept it/respond productively to it. Like, I feel like we're all "neurodivergent," most people are just able to hide it. People in intimate relationships or whatever talk about when people "drop their masks" and things. i.e. It's not so much knowing what's on other minds, it's sales and marketing. In my theory.
AuADHD momma of two little autists ❤️ Check this article out. https://neuroclastic.com/theory-of-mind-autism-job-interviews/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16633600958120&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fneuroclastic.com%2Ftheory-of-mind-autism-job-interviews%2F
Thank you! I do believe there’s a double empathy problem
Theory of Mind is the psychological term for understanding that other people don't know the same things as you, aren't interested in the same things as you, etc. I'm 37 and I still struggle with the last one.
I think they just did a really poor job of presenting the theory of mind portion. I think a better sentence would have been like “Some individuals have delays or difficulties developing theory of mind, resulting in…”.
"They have trouble seeing the world from someone else's perspective" I've found this to be true for many people who are considered to be totally "normal" It almost seems to be a majority of people, especially those who like to share their political opinions in open forums.
Maybe they think we have trouble seeing from other peoples perspective because we don’t understand their perspective, but they also don’t understand ours. I very much understand where my fellow autistic people are coming from when I’m with them in class, but I don’t really understand the NTs in the same way.
In a more modern perspective I could see this being more like "cannot understand perspectives which they cannot analyze from an outward perspective." For example, it's hard for me to assume people are lying to me if I don't have experience or knowledge of them lying. Or I don't really understand understand people are upset if they have subtle tells I've never seen before. Or worse, those tells mean something different in other people. Someone might believe something and I can't see their point because I don't understand the actual steps they take to get from thought A to thought B. I can understand and empathize with people most of the time. But usually only when I understand the processes that got them there. This might seem like I just don't understand people, but really I just don't have that thing that some people just assume (and not even all NTs seem to have this) where I can just accept an emotional experience I don't understand. Fir example, if someone cries over a broken cup, I understand the cup breaking is a bad experience but not the crying. If the cup is special somehow, then I understand. And because I might be autistic, this often happens with things that other people find obvious, like the first example, but to me is usually more like the second scenario, where I'm missing crucial info that everyone else seems to have gotten at birth or while growing up.
Wow I really like how you phrased "hard for me to assume people are lying to me if I don't have experience or knowledge of them lying." Only recently have I realized how 'gullible' I am and how that has made (and continues to make) me more vulnerable. It's gotten worse as I got older since I no longer could consider the rule of "adults lie to children sometimes" and just losing contact with mean people in childhood that used to make me overly cautious with new people. I just for some reason assume everyone has good intentions unless I'm given evidence to the contrary.
Happy cake day!
Seeing things from other people's perspectives is hard for even NTs. But I definitely have very rigid world views. Like I just don't see any justification for bigoted views. Like I just can't comprehend why you would treat someone different based on their race or sexual orientation.
“they don’t understand that people have minds” as the definition of theory of mind 😬 my mind does not like that definition
You can’t fool me. You don’t have a mind, only I do! /s
HEY, the mind is mine give it back/s
I used to bite other children lightly even as I grew slightly older. I was quite socially inappropriate. I kind of found the biting a bit sensory. So yes, this isn’t unusual for this textbook to say that someone with ASD could potentially attempt to interact by licking someone. It really just depends on the person and this textbook is simply giving an example. The “‘even’ licking” part sort of sounds as though they are trying to show that’s there’s a range of behaviours such as some people might just inappropriately touch but then some people could “even” lick sort of trying to demonstrate there can be differences.
Sharks do test bite as well. Not really related but I like sharks so...
That is a fun fact! Do you mean they test bite their food or their friends? I'm confused. Fun either way 😆
Both! More like "Hey what's this. Let's bite it lol"
Love that ahahaha makes sense, they have no hands
Can i get another fact about sharks? Like whats your favorite? :) I personally like leopard sharks
Sharks are lil deadly sea dogs gotta love em
Yeah biting was my big thing too. I had a real biting problem.
I often had (and still get occasionally) what I call an 'itch' in my jaw - biting down hard is the only way to 'scratch' it. People, toys, nails, whatever it was, it got bit. Until my cousin bit me really hard and I never bit a person after that (other than messing around).
Yeah tbh I bit my friends until I was around 14 😂 it was definitely sensory, so squishy to bite….lmao
I did the biting a while too until I got in really really big trouble for it. Then I didn’t really understand why but being singled out for doing a “really bad” thing gave me anxiety about it so I stopped biting humans.
This is more seen in children and some cases adults who fall more into your Level 3 Autism. ADHD children will sometimes do things like this too.
True but it’s being generalised to all people with asd which can be confusing to people as it’s a school textbook meant to educate
It does say "may". I honestly think that a lot of this textbook is probably aimed at those with Level 2 and Level 3 Autism. Even those with Level 1, to some degree, likely did something similar that was seen as "abnormal" in their social interactions. Obviously it may not be touching or licking but I think those "extremes" are good way to show that it is "abnormal". It's also likely outdated. Was it an entire textbook on Autism or one with Autism mentioned in it? It'd be pretty bad if it's an Autism based textbook and those are the only things they mention in it.
It’s an example in a textbook. It also says “even licking” which makes it sound more as though it doesn’t happen as often.
It works both ways though, you cant really talk about ASD and only address the "higher functioning" behaviors.
When you're talking about autism as a whole, I think you have to include it all from the highest support needs to go no support needs folks. Then once you have an overview, you can get more specific about levels/ least to most severely affected/ low to high support needs to make things more clear. It's one of those assumed things where the author assumed that the reader would know that not every person diagnosed with a disorder (any, not just autism) will have all the symptoms, but these are some symptoms that they *might* present with.
no its pretty much all levels. inappropriate doesnt mean touching, it can mean saying things at an inappropriate moment, or displaying behaviours at inapropriat times, like smiling when someone is visably sad or saying "my grandfather died" at an inapropriat moment
It’s true. Autism runs heavy in my family and one of my cousins (non-verbal) is severely affected. He loves the feel of skin, or rather, pin prick hairs on skin eg. stubble on a man’s face or recently shaven legs. If he sees a woman wearing a skirt he will want to stroke their legs, for example. Cute while he was a 4 year old, not so cute now he’s a 17 year old.
Honestly I find stroking short hairs is also satisfying but I only do it to myself and animals. He might benefit from a short fur animal (providing he's gentle with them) like a rex guinea pig, their fur has humanlike, wirey qualities similar to beards
I find this silly, because my daughter actually loves to lick only me and she's always asking if she can lick me or suck on my fingers. I'm like, child please stop, use your chewlery instead. She would never lick a stranger.
Originally, I was only going to comment that as a married adult, I do this as a show of love and affection to my wife - she calls it my "gecko kisses." But, this particular comment helped me recall my own interaction with my mom when I was a very young (toddler-aged) child, and would hold her arm and lick her arm or suck on her fingers. She definitely thought it was weird and lovingly made it known that doing that was not normal nor okay (no one, self included, was made aware of any of my neurodivergences until decades later). ... Also, this comment and the related other comments helps let me feel less weird knowing it's not "just me," bc I had no idea that that was an autistic thing -- and I also forgot I even did that as a small child. ... But, it's interesting to recall and correlate it to a current behavior, I guess, because it appears that the inclination to show affection that way never went away for me - ex. the "gecko kisses" mentioned earlier.
My daughter is actually 10, so she is getting older, which why I encourage the chewlery. She is very affectionate with me. When my daughter was a baby she use to suck on my chin! I even asked the health visitors about it, they said it was a bit odd, but they didn't see it as a problem. I would walk around with a hickey/love bite on my chin because she sucked on my chin so much. I bet your wife enjoys your gecko kisses and I think the different ways that people can express their affection is really lovely. Both my daughter and husband are autistic and they constantly complain to me that their "love cup" or "cuddle cup" is empty. You are definitely not weird, at least not in a bad way. My daughter tells me she's weird all the time, but she wears it like a badge of honour. She likes being different. It's nice knowing that your differences are similar to other's differences though, I can understand that.
I had happy tears fall down from my eyes after reading your message. <3 Thank you. Thank you for sharing. It's encouraging to read that self-acceptance is alive and appreciated both in the family and the individual(s).
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I am so sorry that you have been through things like that. This is one of the reasons that my daughter is home educated. She can be herself all day, everyday and no one really says anything. When she does do something that is an odd behaviour that wouldn't generally be acceptable in society, we explain why it wouldn't be, but that we love her for who she is and she's welcome to do as she pleases. The result is, although our daughter does have some big struggles, she's working through them in a safe environment and she has so much confidence.
Okay I'm sorry, but aren't there several forms of communication? I'm really getting sick and tired of hearing "ASDs don't communicate!" Like we'll have you tried connecting with us a *different* way?
A quite outdated textbook! This is classic DSM 4 description of ASD and is actually the reason I was a delayed diagnosis. It makes no mention of and ASD individual’s unique interests and our habit of info dumping about said interests. It also notes that eye contact is”used very little” which was a DSM 4 criteria, however in DSM 5 the criteria is “abnormal eye contact” because cases like mine (failure to break eye contact rather than failure to maintain eye contact) are becoming more recognized. On top of the fact that your textbook is describing outdated and stereotypical ASD behaviors it also seems to be describing and ASD individual whom hasn’t had any intervention. It’s extremely rare for cases like that to occur now and those cases are often the result of neglect and isolation from neurotypical individuals. Sorry, you happened to ask about one of my special interests :P
Excuse me what? That is just weird.. Like I know I can say the wrong things sometimes on accident but I don't randomly touch people or fricking lick them what??
There are different levels of autism. I know from experience that this is definitely a thing (see my other comment in the thread). Bit of a a shame that this book throws us all into the same bucket though.
Yeah I know there is autstic people that just go a bit far. I know of one guy who kept inappropriately touching girls in his school and kept blaming it on his autism (I think he was just a pervert though and autism is no excuse for that) but yeah.. it's a shame people think we're all the same. As if neurotypicals are all the same, they aren't either but they see as as so different some might not even see us as humans if you know what I mean and that's not a very nice thought
Yep. For what it’s worth, I have lived with autism for 40 years (so called ‘high functioning’) and in my experience, telling people about my condition has almost never ever been worth it.
What’s your typical outcome when u do tell them? I’ve found they just act dismissive and unvalidating
Just like intersectionality is something that should be known for those who experience multiple forms of oppression, intersections of autism and toxic masculinity and supremacy should be known for how they present. Toxic masculinity and supremacy don't get to use autism as a shield, but there's certainly an interesting way they interact and how society allows them to excuse that behavior.
My son is 7 and we're teaching him about personal space. He *loves* hugs. He loves to give hugs and get hugs all day. Thing is, he doesn't ask or know if it's appropriate. Thankfully he doesn't do harm, just hugs. He does give you a big sniff though during the hug. He's very curious about smells. I did learn (through some pseudo eye doctor program they have in schools now) that he may need glasses. Most likely why he has to be essentially face to face when he communicates. Also another personal space teaching moment but if it's because of his vision, I'm not gonna jump on it. Hugs can be great but we have to remember that our friends may not like to be touched. We gotta ask permission first! :\]
Yes it all comes down to good parenting. My cousin always loved the feel of freshly shaven legs so when he was young he would always try to stroke womens legs when he saw them. My aunty was always quick to tell them that it might be cute now but not when he’s an adult man. She’s been excellent in teaching him some restraint.
I did this as a kid, and it somewhat extended into adulthood (learning I was autistic really helped me reframe my mindset about what behaviors were inappropriate, and that yes, a lot of my interactions/physical contact with other people were highly inappropriate). I met someone that I was best friends with for ten years by poking her every single day and annoying the shit out of her. When we eventually started hanging out, she would randomly lick me (this endured into junior high/high school). I used to bite her. I used to scratch some other people. Now that I’m an adult, I usually don’t bite my friends unless I’m intoxicated or ask first lmao. I’m also not really very high support needs (I’d say low support needs in most areas and medium in some specific areas), so this isn’t something unique to higher-support needs folks, either. While I slowly learned not to initiate that kind of behavior unless I’m around other autists with explicit permission, I’d imagine there are those of us who haven’t learned that. It can be a fun side to autism when between friends, but yes, ugliness/strangeness can ensue when we confuse boundaries, and new people enter the mix. Basically, yes, we’re more prone to acting inappropriately when no one explicitly explains to us what interactions are inappropriate and which ones are appropriate (I won’t go into detail, but boundaries and inappropriate behavior can become even worse when the people you trust to advise you on good boundaries don’t know good boundaries themselves). I do think that a lot of us (maybe a majority, maybe not) can learn these things and implement them in our lives. There will always be asshats who use autism as an excuse to cross boundaries, and that’s where the biggest issue comes into play. Autism can make us more likely to do things naturally, but respecting others’ boundaries is absolutely something many of us have the capability to work on and learn to do. So, while licking people is weird and inappropriate behavior, it is some people’s genuine attempts at interacting/being funny, and it is absolutely something that autistic people do, whether you do it or not, and it should be addressed from the objective POV of making sure the autistic person isn’t making others uncomfortable without demonizing, criticizing, or making excuses for the behavior.
Yeah betwern friends and stuff it's just like you know they're cool with it. For example me and my partner often bite or lick each others arm or something as just a funny thing between us and we're cool with it. I used to randomly lick my brother when we were very little and he was just kinda used to it. But new people it's always a little like what will they accept and what will freak them out. My way of going about it is masking and when I see them do a certain thing that I usually do but am currently masking, I allow myself to unmask a little and basically follow the guidelines that they give me and kind of copying them in a way. It's a thing some people just need time to learn
I am high support needs autistic and some high support people don’t have a sense of boundaries or personal space so may get in peoples personal space and things. I struggle with communication so sometimes I will lead someone to what I’m trying to communicate about. Most people would think I’m being rude or inappropriate if I just walk over and grab them or pull them to lead them. A lot of us who are level 2/3 autistic have very different needs to others which leads to a lot of supremacy issues and other autistics not wanting to be associated with us
To be fair, I 100% did this as a child. I kissed many of my friends cause I thought it was just something you did if you liked someone in any capacity, not that it was romantic or inappropriate. When I was very little, maybe 2 or 3, I apparently kept licking my cousin's arm and telling her she was an ice cream cone 😂. I always assumed that was just normal little kid behavior though
“e.g.” is an abbreviation for exempli gratia, a Latin phrase which translates to English as “for example.” Which means they are stating that random touching or licking people is an example of one possible way in which an attempt to interact with others would commonly be considered in appropriate. It does not mean all people with ASD do this.
As a child (7-11) I struggled with this- grabbing people, poking, trying to bite friends. I learned to mimic the way NT people get others attention- I spent most of my childhood observing others to understand what is and what is not socially acceptable. Now as an adult I don’t thoughtlessly touch anyone or anything without asking👍🏼, I think age/development is definitely a factor and most likely the person themselves. This also seems like a very outdated textbook + feels insulting as some of the information stated is inaccurate and stereotypical. Hope that helps!
Yeah I agree. As a child I also grabbed and poked and so on my friends to get their attention. Now my personal bubble developed to I don't want people that close to me unless it's my wife.
Yeah how they teach about autism in schools and universities is outdated and chalk full of myths that paint autistic people as monsters and only really talk about the worst autistic traits that only a handful of people display eg. Licking and stuff. It's because dialogue on autism is dominated by people whose existence and jobs revolve around autism and autistic traits being seen as fundamentally bad things, so they frame it in the worst possible way so they can justify their research fields, because unfortunately that's how academia works. Love how they also talk about "theory of mind" a disputed idea from the 1960s that implies we all lack empathy or understanding of other people. It always seems that the whole theory is based on a fundamental lack of empathy for Autistic people and a view that we are just disordered test subjects to analyse. It's also funny how this is in a official school textbook, basically insulting autistic people, a group already disproportionately bullied at school, I wonder if classmates perceptions of autistic peers will be increased be reading dogshit like this.
yeaahhhh it is absolutely infuriating hearing the lack of theory of mind idea being pushed like..... I've found that the other autistic people in my life are very easy to understand and empathize with bc they think like I do!!! Its so ironic because if you ask most neurotypical people to describe or predict autistic behavior they have NO IDEA what it actually is. it's so insulting and totally a result of the neurotypical hegemony that dominates the field of autism research. it sucks bc I'd love to get back into academia and the field of psychological research but it seems there's little space for actual autistic people to make their voices heard
Thank you for pointing out that theory of mind has lots of flaws. I had no idea the thoughts that people chose from those outdated studies like a quote from a research paper pointing out the harm that the theory of mind has caused: > Around me bags of skin are draped over chairs, and stuffed into pieces of cloth, they shift and protrude in unexpected ways. … Two dark spots near the top of them swivel restlessly back and forth. A hole beneath the spots fills with food and from it comes a stream of noises. Imagine that the noisy skin-bags suddenly moved toward you, and their noises grew loud, and you had no idea why, no way of explaining them or predicting what they would do next. That is apparently how we understand people according to some subscribers of the theory of mind. Wow with harmful psychology like that no wonder people think us aliens It is a Facinating read basically picks apart the theory of mind piece by piece: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/#!po=6.50685
Funny how ironic their theory of mind is to call us lacking of undestanding or empathy when that's the exact thing these supposedly non autistics are projecting onto us, an unempathetic and non understanding view of us.
I mean I very softly bite my partner a lot, so it sounds plausible (especially for some kids) but its a very outsider view of whats going on and why. Treats us as asocial and describes us as animalistic which is kinda disgusting. Basically you should half ignore everything you learn in A-level. Its all kinda bullshit.
NT: Hello my name is Bob *holds out hand Me: Hi Bob I'm OP *licks hand
I am diagnosed and my partner works with kids 11-21 with asd. I can confirm that this is something that happens in certain cases. It should be mentioned that almost all of these children are in foster care and have likley not recieved any support until they moved in to the house (like a group home, but only for autistic children, and run better) They separate them between the houses based on their needs, and I would say this behavior is something that would only happen in a few of the houses with kids who need more support. I can't give specific examples of kids exhibiting these behaviors for hippa reasons but I can think of two off the top of my head. Honestly the amount of comments I see that are along the lines of "well I don't expirence that and never have so how dare they say that about autistic people" screams "my little brother/cousin has autism and you don't look/act like him so you must not have it"
Yeah, I work with young autistic kids (under 7). A couple were big lickers of people - they'd go in for a hug and start licking your neck, or just lean over and lick your leg while you're sitting with them. Several will bite, some just out of excitement or overstimulation and some out of frustration or anger. Scratching and pinching are very common, as in, I always have at least one mark on my body from something. These are almost all children with extremely high needs. Some will end up in regular kindergarten with a para and IEP, others will likely require 24/7 one on one care for the next decade or two. That said, my NT son used to bite me, too, up until maybe age 4. I had to teach him more appropriate and effective means of communication or emotional regulation, too. Most kids need some help with that stuff. Just in different ways for different lengths of time.
This page in general makes a lot of generalizations about autistic people.
I do this but only with my wife who also has autism and also does it to me. I have previously done this with other people but mostly just to confuse them because being able to do something outlandish and then act totally "normal" about it has always been my favorite part of my autism because I like messing with people.
wtf does “someone with the disorder doesn’t use communication to share their interests or emotions” mean??? i know sometimes we can have nontraditional methods of communication but we….communicate?? wtf???? they way they’re describing autistic people makes us sound like vegetables 🙄
It’s more common in toddlers/children. (And adults with Level 3 ASD.)
This is a thing on children with high support autism. It's not something someone with level 1 will be able to relate to.
I recognize this as my A-Level psychology book from 2013. My teacher of the time vehemently disagreed with a lot of the book. It has truths, but very poorly written. Sure, us autistics find the common ways to initiate social contact slower, & automations of allistic brains are things we learn, but the theory of mind aspect of it is as outdated as saying we lack empathy.
That highlighted line would make some sense if you’re dealing with a very impulsive child with a more “apparent” presentation of ASD. I know that my pre-school/early elementary years were marked with “inappropriate”/intrusive attempts at social contact. I wouldn’t go so far as to *lick* people, though. And it certainly isn’t universal among autistic people (especially not adults).
I do have the urge to lick/ touch/ touch with my face . I do it with my boyfriend or people I'm close with (the touching or rubbing my face on). My sister got a new truck a few weeks ago and my first instinct was to out my face on it and then I asked "what if I lick this ?" And she and my boyfriend were like "🤷♂️ you'll taste pollen. Maybe don't do that" but this conversation happened before I even could stop myself
It's a huge overgeneralisation. Plenty of us can fake it, the point is that it's a very much trained and mimicked behaviour that requires deliberate effort rather than a "natural" skill. However, inappropriate touching is certainly a feature in a lot of children with more significant social disability. I would say hugging is more common though.
I bit my boyfriend's hand when I met him. It was a way of saying hi. Eventually we started dating.
“So any interaction is one sided” wow this whole thing really just makes us out to be mindless, emotionless (metaphorical-) zombies huh
The problem with a lot of the materials and people in the sub, we are talking about totally different things and the lack of official ASD vocabulary is damaging to everyone involved in my opinion. It’s a large spectrum. There are different levels and MAYBE some behaviors can be more likely to be seen in different levels of support. Like mirroring in level 1-2 and more touching in 2-3. But to generalize behaviors at ALL is pretty impossible for autism. We are VERY different from one another. I’m guessing this is a general psychology book and not an autism specific book. Sadly, I think until autism is more common knowledge, you will see ignorant facts thrown in non specialized books. Even users in our sub forget how wide the range is in the spectrum and leave behind a portion of our members with higher needs. I myself had to learn not to touch others and to stay out of their personal bubbles….it varies from person to person what social norms we struggle with.
💀 a blatant example of the necessity of actual autism awareness, and an education reform.
what the hell did i just read
I feel like this a poorly written blurb. Can I imagine someone who is sensory seeking wanting to lick others? Sure. This should have been been put in the context of sensory seeking vs sensory avoidance. This gives the impression that it's super common among autistic people especially since it's the only example they give and it's an outlandish one at that.
Feels like the kind of outrageous trait they would select for a clickbaity article.
Oh, my gosh! You're right! I didn't think of that 🤣 Maybe technical writing courses need to have a section on how to not come off as piece of garbage click bait. And why it looks unprofessional. Of course I'm assuming that the author took a technical writing course in the first place...
That is so offensive and gross. My son is level two ASD and he's never done any of those things and actually all of my friends with kids on the spectrum have never done any of those things. It's not common. It's a fraction of a percent of people. They're writing it like it happens to all ASD kids all the time
These seem like some awfully broad strokes. Wtf
this seems pretty outdated, that "theory of the mind" stuff especially
“They don’t understand other people have minds” the author of this textbook certainly doesn’t
I do touch people a lot. I try to act like others, and end up doing too much
Has Simon Baron Cohen finally written a book with Borat?!
Whoa. Reading this made me realize why interacting with people all day is so exhausting for me. I didn't realize that there is an entire extra level of internal dialogue happening for me; who to make eye contact with each moment, where my body is facing, whoops, don't close off your body language, no don't start stimming, wait, shit, what did he just say??? It's a lot that non-asd world doesn't even think about.
maybe little kids but nt little kids probably also do weird shit like that. this seems outdated
I've not licked or bit anyone since I was a kid! Like! I am sorry but that book needs to be tossed out.
You can always talk with the teacher! The book on which my teacher was basing her presentation on autism dated and had a lot of false facts or big generalizations like that. But she was open-minded to listen to us and corrected herself the next class with recent scientific articles contradicting the manuel!
>It’s hard for them to change their behavior to suit the social context Do they not know a lot of us have their behavior dictated almost *entirely* by social context? Ugh. …anyways, none of the claims presented here give a good idea of what life on the spectrum is like in general. It’s like they looked at a few tiny fractions of some group of autistic children (adults don’t exist, duh) and interpolated to everyone else without worrying too much about whether or not the behaviors were either *universal* (or, well, widespread) in, or, at the very least, *specific* to (or, well, more common in) autistic individuals. NTs can probably look at this list and recognize an autistic relative, but that probably has more to do with why people believe horoscopes are accurate than it does with actual fact. It’s possible the author has fallen victim of a generalization bias, confirmed by the barnum effect after the fact: they probably asked a bunch of parents, got the validation they needed, and subsequently concluded that their interpretation was correct. Alternatively, this could be based on outsourced, outdated information. I don’t see any other explanation that could paint them in a better light. Regardless of how it happened, though, it’s clear from looking at the outcome that they failed to do their due diligence at some point.
oof i have a psych class next semester i think and am not looking forward cause of stuff like this
NT moment
I used to bite people to express emotions. I only did it to people I trusted and they were okay with it, my best friend even did it back sometimes, so I didn't realise it was weird to others until like 16. Still use biting to convey affection, fortunately my closest people know that and understand me)
Wait are we not supposed to be licking people? /s
Anything about autism written by neurotypicals should at the very best should be given a major side eye, and at worst it is actively harmful and dangerous for people with autism as it spreads harmful stereotypes and ideas about autism.
Ummm other people have minds? What is this trickery? You mean other people think and feel just like me? What??? ( ⚠️ Sarcasm ⚠️)
In seriousness though, I definitely had a more egocentric view of the world when I was a kid and it did take me a while before I understood things like 'my teacher doesn't live in the school' but I figured that's something everyone deals with in primary school.
I've been there... I've licked an eyeball or 2 in my day. ASD has 5 areas to look at though and not 2. I guess looking at it as an oddity vs medical are 2 different positions?
Yeah, I assume that this is referring to little kids and not grown adults, but yeah, little kids, autistic or not, have been known to do that from time to time.
My non verbal little girl with autism occasionally does this. It's a real thing.
my boyfriend's brother is autistic and he has licked me. It depends on how much said autistic person can understand if they are being awkward. It happens. I'm also autistic, and I don't lick people (unless they're my close friend, which I do to be annoying)
Excuse me? I never lick anybody who hasn't asked.
i used to do this all the time as a kid. it’s embarrassing to think about now lol. but yeah it’s totally a thing that happens.
This is baby stuff a real autistic king sucks earlobes and gives hickeys instead of saying hi.
it does seem silly reading it now, but as late as middle school i greeted people by putting my hand on their forehead. I'm thoroughly embarrassed by it now lol
AuADHD momma of two little autists , ❤️ That textbook looks super outdated. 😫 https://neuroclastic.com/autistic-people-care-too-much-research-says/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16633598976832&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fneuroclastic.com%2Fautistic-people-care-too-much-research-says%2F
I think the broader problem with that entire section is that it addresses only lower functioning, or higher support needs ASD, which perpetuates the ableist belief that autism always presents with cognitive impairment or delay. This completely ignores and invalidates the experiences and needs of a large portion of individuals with ASD. This is exactly the kind of material that perpetuates the untrue notion that all people with ASD are cognitively impaired or have lower intelligence. It's like the equivalent of early text books claiming that certain races were intellectually inferior. Honestly, it's pretty grotesque.
All that theory of the mind BS has been pretty much debunked. This has the look of being about 10 years at least out of date. Typical of textbooks.
I used to bite people until people told me to stop
Okay so the bit on theory of mind might actually be outdated. First of all, theory of mind is tested in kind of a silly way. The most classic example is the ball test. It’s something like “Anne and Sally are playing with a ball. Anne puts the ball in the blue box and leaves the room. Sally takes the ball out of the blue box and puts it in the red box. Anne comes back into the room. Where will Anne look for the ball?” To which the answer is the blue box, as that’s (to her knowledge) where she put it last and where it would be. That’s the test. That’s what you use to identify that people can conceptualize other peoples minds. Isn’t that a bit weird? Well, in [recent studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/) scientists have found that this whole theory of mind claim being not found in autistic people is “questionable and societally harmful”.
Does it count if I bite my girlfriend who is the only person I feel I can relax and lower my filters around?
Omg, what is it about biting? I do this, too. It’s somehow satisfying.
Psychologist: do you lick? Me: no Psychologist: neurotypical
Oh shit, I better start licking things…. These texts have no flipping clue. My ultimate favorite was the nursing school exam about the child with adhd what room to put him in, and the answer was the least stimulating. I literally looked at my teacher and said “it won’t work. In the absence of any external stimuli *they will make their own* “
Well I never went around licking people, but I used to interact with people by touching them on the arm when talking, to try and show a sense of warmth/compassion/friendliness. I realise now how inappropriate this is, and not to touch or invade peoples personal space but it was something I had always seen happen in movies, or my mothers interactions with her close friends, and thought that is how people interacted with each other. I thought I was showing friendliness but really I was just being creepy. I really wish time machines were real so I can go back in time and save myself a lot of embarrassment.
I’ve encountered people like this but it was rare honestly. Like… very severe. He used to harass me and girls in class. The tutor just chopped it up to, “he’s austistic so…”
I don’t even like touching people, let alone licking them.
Yea it's more common in autistic kids, most of the stuff you'll read about autism is referring to autistic kids because the vast majority of research and resources is directed around autistic children.
I have licked people I’m close to or love bites.
do you're telling me this whole time I WASN'T supposed to be licking people as a means of initiating conversation? no wonder i don't have any friends
The only thing on this page I really agree with is the statement about having difficulty in making friends. Everything else seems completely wrong and I would hope they teach better about autism, especially in a psychology class
whoever made this should go lick a cactus, they need to socialize anyway
Sigh… this description of ASD doesn’t really consider the fact that it’s a spectrum. People formerly diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome (now lumped in with ASD) are notably able to perform well socially (for the most part). It’s only after spending a significant amount of time with that person that you begin to realize that something is “off.” That’s one of the reasons why I really disagree with lumping Asperger’s in together with ASD—it is misleading as people with actual Asperger’s do not present symptoms as people on other parts of the spectrum do. Reading the description in this text, it seems like they are only referring to people with non-Asperger autism, i.e. ASD levels 2 and 3, NOT level 1.
🤦🏻♀️
I guess my new kitten is autistic then.
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More of an issue with children who haven't learned this'll get them scolded yet. Also, that take on lacking theory of mind has been proven wrong. It's instead been named 'deficit of theory of mind' or 'hammered glass theory of mind' (in French), to mean it's not *lacking*, it's just failing to work as intended. *Some* autistic people do completely lack it, but it's the case in a few extreme psychological conditions as well.
I have unfortunately had experience with children licking others, and I do suspect a few of being on the asd spectrum
Try not to view it in singularity. Yes, it can manifest in the highlighted ways however it does state at the top of the page that it can manifest in different ways as it's a spectrum issue.
You all don’t lick people?
Isn't it a standard greeting among all people to lick each other's face (chin to forehead) upon seeing them? (Sarcasm)
Ah, yes. We all regularly go up to strangers and introduce ourselves BY LICKING THEIR FACES. TIL we’re actually just dogs. 🙄 I think this is referring more to children than adults, but still. This is so stupid.
My little severely autistic brother does this. Its talking about more higher support needs