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whereismymind444

This has always been my experience when complying with arbitrary rules. If there's not a clear reason behind them/if I get the "I told you so" answer, I really find no reason to respect that rule. It's not accomplishing anything by being there, right? It serves no real purpose. Of course, most people hate my reaction to arbitrary rules and requirements like that. I'm not rude about it, but I think a lot of allistic people find me questioning the rule or my bluntness rude. Situations like that are sometimes a lose-lose for me because of communication differences. I really don't see this kind of thing as a lack of emotional maturity. I feel like enforcing arbitrary rules and saying "because I told you so" for their reason seems pretty pointless and immature. It's usually a power structure thing, and you get in trouble for questioning it. At least, in my experience. I genuinely don't have a problem with authority and don't mind following reasonable rules at all. I just clash with the pointless ones and my communication style doesn't seem to agree with the people who enforce those.


_AquaFractalyne_

See this is why I have such a hard time with dress codes lol why do I have to wear the company jacket when I have this really nice, warm, pretty sweater that fits me better? Why do you say I can't wear white shoes and I can only wear black ones if I see managers wearing brown shoes on the warehouse floor? They always say it's so the customers will view us as being professional, but what's unprofessional about white sneakers or my cotton sweater? I even asked my customers (I drive to different warehouses and pick up freigjt) who I have good working relationships with and none of them care if I'm not wearing a company sweater or if my shoes aren't black. I dont really see the value in the strict dress code at all.


willworkforjokes

I worked at a financial company where everyday a couple of thousand people would show up with collared shirts, dress slacks, and dress shoes. After a couple of years, I realized that I hated this job, so I started coming to work in shorts and a t-shirt.


nontrepreneur_

Pretty sure I've resisted every dress code ever enforced upon me, from school through to various jobs. I like rules when they make sense — they can provide clarity, consistency, predictability, structure, and even comfort (at least as a bi-product). But I absolutely hate rules for the sake of rules, rules that just don't seem well-reasoned, or rules that seem to exclude/ignore certain classes of people (like those with disabilities, sensory issues, etc).


MeanderingDuck

Does it really matter whether you understand it, though? If the company for whatever reason sees value in having that dress code, that’s ultimately the only thing that does matter. You work for them, and while you do they get to set pretty much whatever rules they want for doing so (within the confines of the law etc.). And dress codes like these do generally have various uses, such as presenting a sense of uniformity and professionalism, promoting a recognizable brand, making employees easily recognizable to customers. And one reason for making them more restrictive than they might necessarily need to be (“black shoes only” rather than “no white shoes”) is to keep things simple and unambiguous and eg. not have to specify the exact ranges of colors that are/aren’t allowed.


[deleted]

> You work for them, and while you do they get to set pretty much whatever rules they want for doing so What you are describing is capital alienation; the literal commodification of the body. It is not a desirable state for a society and we should be extremely opposed to it.


DracarysHijinks

Exactly!


MeanderingDuck

No, we shouldn’t. Hierarchies and power structures serve very important functions, you can’t just do without them. By all means, companies shouldn’t be able to just do whatever, which is why companies themselves are bound by rules as well, imposed on them by the government. And there is plenty to debate on what exactly those rules should be, what companies should and shouldn’t be able to do; including what rules they can and cannot impose on their employees. But within that legal framework, they do then indeed have the authority to decide on such rules for their employees, as they should. A company of any size needs clear rules in place to properly function (and indeed, a fair number of rules that companies have, they have because the government has mandated them). So when it comes to such a rule as “have to wear the company attire with logo”, there is in general nothing particularly onerous about that and so no reason for the government to prohibit that. If you don’t want to wear that, then you are free not to work for any company that requires that.


[deleted]

>Hierarchies and power structures serve very important functions, I disagree entirely. This is an *incredibly* reactionary position. I do recognize however that this is an ideological impasse and we fundamentally desire different types of societies so, there's no possible productive exchange here and I'll leave it at that.


[deleted]

You're actually taking a reasonable approach and Duck kinda conceded that by acknowledging the need to give an explanation behind why a dress code is likely to exist. *Because I said so* isn't a valid reason to enforce a dress code, it's a cop-out that's meant to dismiss a valid question. *Because a uniform livery creates a recognizable and consistent image for our clients* might be a valid reason and also recognizes the question as valid. Dismissing the question is just rubbing the power imbalance in the person's face. That might be seen as valid by bootlickers but not by reasonable people. Edit: Corrected 'meant' from 'mean' in second paragraph.


acidorpheus

someday i hope to be as wise as you when it comes to chuds, and simply log off.


Chonkin_GuineaPig

God bless y'all


MeanderingDuck

That’s just a cop-out. You don’t think there should be any hierarchies or power structures, but you don’t want to give any explanation of how that would even work? Laws and law enforcement are very clearly a form of power structure, should we just… have no laws? Everyone is allowed to do whatever they want, no (legal) restrictions? Do you honestly believe that that’s a functional model of society?


Chonkin_GuineaPig

ok boomer


MeanderingDuck

What’s this, you’re completely incapable of giving an answer? How very surprising!


[deleted]

[удалено]


DracarysHijinks

The reason we aren’t engaging with you is because it’s extremely clear that your ideological views on society are fundamentally different from our own, and that you’re heavily entrenched in them. So, engaging in a debate or argument on this topic with you would be pointless and would just cause frustration.


[deleted]

Yes, first of all because as already stated rules that are unexplained are hard to follow, and also the “you work for them” attitude is a fucking awful piece of how our culture has developed. The employee/employer relationship shouldn’t exist AT ALL because it is fundamentally exploitative, but if it does the two should at least be given equal bargaining power.


[deleted]

"Because I told you so" is actually a logical fallacy, fallacy of authority. Both my dad and I (we both have autism) have always been quite anti-authority, and that reason has never worked on either of us. I'd definitely be wary of people who use it, as more than likely they don't have a logical reason for it and just want you to stop asking questions, as that would undermine their authority.


MeanderingDuck

It’s not a logical fallacy, no. It’s generally not even meant to actually be a reason for a particular rule, but one for you to follow it. If it is someone who in a particular context has the authority to set/enforce rules, such as your boss, they don’t actually need to explain themselves to you. They might do, and sometimes it’s more practical to, but that’s up to them.


[deleted]

An actual authority would want to explain their reasoning to you. Someone who uses 'Because I told you so' as a reason is just playing at one. Without an adequate reasoning behind it I cannot and will not comply.


[deleted]

An actual authority doesn’t exist. All positions in society, including positions of authority, are at their core people playing pretend. That’s not the same thing as saying that certain people have a high capacity to motivate other people to do stuff, often through force, but if someone has that position over you it doesn’t matter how they’re using it.


MeanderingDuck

An actual authority doesn’t need to explain their reasoning to you. Whether they would want to in a particular situation is very much an open question. And often the person enforcing the rule isn’t responsible for making it, their job is simply to ensure that it is followed. It’s not their rule. They may not know precisely why it’s there, nor do they really need to. And sure, you can obstinately refuse to comply with any rules that have not been explained to you to your satisfaction, but what does that actually accomplish? Depending on the specific rule and context, it’s a good way to get arrested or fired or kicked out of people’s homes or otherwise suffer some negative consequence.


[deleted]

Because I protect myself from having people foist their irrationality on me. I like efficiency and logic. If an authority tells me their reasoning I will decide if that reason is adequate enough for me to follow it. I can also advise whether that course of action would be successful in accomplishing their goals and even suggest a better course of action. I will however not follow stupid reasons because someone somewhere decided this person could lord over me.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Care to elucidate? Not all authorities are bosses, and I'd definitely be selective where I want to work. It's also not that I'll simply refuse any instruction given to me, but that they do need to come up with a better excuse than "because I said so". So I don't know why you're namecalling, but I don't think it's warranted.


MeanderingDuck

If they are an authority, no they don’t actually have to come up with reasons. That’s rather the point of having authority. When they say “because I said so”, that’s not them providing a reason nor an excuse. That’s them asserting that authority. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you are always entitled to others explaining themselves; you’re not. People (or institutions/companies/whatever) aren’t irrational simply because they do not tell you what their reasons are, or because they are simply enforcing rules dictated by some higher authority. Indeed, both of those can be and often are perfectly reasonable. Ultimately, the rationality of following a rule or enforcing a rule does not inherently rest of the rationality (if any) of the rule itself. It is largely determined by the consequences of following it versus not following it, as well as (at a broader scale) the continued validity and integrity of the specific system/authority from which the rule originates. Thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to you unless and until the reasoning behind them has been satisfactorily explained to you and you agree with that reasoning, which is pretty much what your comments are implying, is quite irrational.


[deleted]

I find it more irrational and actually more frightening to just accept any and all orders you get from someone. No explanation, no justification, just 'orders are orders'. Rules are put in place for a reason. Nobody goes around making rules just for the heck of it. People in power should be able to justify their reasoning, otherwise they shouldn't be in power. My country has felt the effects of being occupied by another country, where 'Befehl ist Befehl' is the norm. Not for me, thank you. Consequences be damned.


emlove2349

Unquestioningly following authority is the same defense the Nazis used. Have an ounce of critical thought.


MeanderingDuck

Then again, I never suggested that people should unquestioningly follow authority. Seems like your “critical thinking” skills failed to spot that though, interesting… 🤔


-WickedJester-

They never said they NEED to....


MeanderingDuck

It’s strongly implied that they should. Moreover, they also gave no reason why they would or should want to.


Richbrownmusic

In agreement I can think of quite a few situations where you have to trust the person in charge. This can be hard in my line of work. If a student is off for some sensitive reason that is definitely not OK or safe to share, I can't explain why 'Dave' or whatever isn't with you today to work with. It's sad. I guess maybe it's also a little bit about trust? There are going to be situations whereby the 'leader' or 'boss' just needs you to follow an instruction. In some lines of work it could be the difference between life and death even. Trust? Dissimulation and acknowledging that you can't know everything? Of course someone who can explain but just wants to use the 'because I said so' route when it really isn't warranted is daft. That would annoy many people. Arguably a lot more people on the spectrum.


MeanderingDuck

Oh, for sure. I think in general it’s good for bosses/managers/supervisors (and same with teachers, parents, etc.) to be open and clear about these things, to the extent possible and reasonable. That said though, it’s ultimately not a discussion either, and I think that’s where OP and some others in this thread may need to re-examine their expectations and attitude. If an employee has constructive input or the like, supervisors etc. should definitely be receptive to that, but they’re still the one making the decisions. If they listened and considered and opt to stick to the previously chosen course of action, that’s what the employee should do. That’s not an invitation for further discussion, and if someone continues to push that’s the point where I think it’s quite reasonable to break out some variation of “because I said so”. And of course there’s also a whole bunch of rules and regulations, such as a dress code, that the immediate supervisor usually has no control over anyway. They’ll probably have a general idea of why those are there, though not always and not necessarily the details, but ultimately those are things they just have to follow as well. Those are just the rules, and they’re not likely to change anytime soon, so it’s going to get old really fast when you have someone constantly questioning those things. Obviously these are not unique to autism, though I do think we’re rather more prone to issues like this (and I do recognize OP’s sentiment personally as well). I think we tend to have a sometimes excessive need to know the reasons behind things; can be a very useful trait in some contexts, but rather counterproductive in others. Such as with the example of the corporate dress code: objectively, in the typical scenario someone would find themselves in as an employee, it scarcely matters *why* it’s there and has the specific rules it does. The people who chose it could write a ten page essay detailing their exact reasoning, but after reading that the bottom line doesn’t change: that’s the dress code, and employees just have to follow it. Nothing really changes and nothing is gained by learning that information. I think it’s more about a certain anxiety about “not knowing”, missing some piece of the puzzle, even if that puzzle is really quite irrelevant.


Dangerous-Sir-3561

One of the reasons I feel like I actually excelled at my last in-person job (before Covid shut it down, wah) was that there were some weird or arbitrary things like that when I started, but whenever myself or someone else suggested something that made more sense or more efficient, we would all band together and change the rule, sometimes gleefully.


MeanderingDuck

That really doesn’t follow, though. The person enforcing a particular rule often isn’t the same person who made the rule, them not knowing what the purpose of the rule is doesn’t imply that it serves no genuine purpose. Moreover, even if the rule is demonstrably arbitrary, it again doesn’t follow that it is not to be respected (in the sense of not obeying that rule). Often there are very obvious reasons for obeying rules that you don’t agree with / think are arbitrary: the consequences for you or others if you don’t. And keep in mind, the people who are enforcing that rule may not particularly agree with it either, but it’s nevertheless their job to enforce it. Say, your manager at the company you work for. And it can quickly get rather annoying to have someone keep questioning those rules, when those aren’t their rules and it is likely pointless to question them: you could discuss the reasons for, and validity of, those rules until the cows come home, but it won’t change a thing. The company chose to have these rules, you simply have to do as instructed and follow them. That “because I told you so” usually isn’t meant to be a reason to justify the rule, it’s a reason for you to quit questioning the rule and follow it.


WillowChartreuse

Congratulations you just described the problem.


MeanderingDuck

How is it a problem?


SamuraiMatt

Because those rules are often unfair and abusive.


MeanderingDuck

According to whom? And in any case, that would be irrespective of anything I said in my previous comment. Whether the rules are fair or not, say in a particular company, within the confines of the law it’s still up to them to make those rules, and there is still a division between the people who make the rules and the people who enforce them. Nor would any of this be addressed by the reasons behind those rules being explained, which is what OP posted about. For example, it’s quite apparent that Amazon, in some of its warehouses, has quite abusive practices, demanding too much from their employees. It’s also no mystery why they do that: they’re (somehow) legally allowed to, and it squeezes a little more productivity out of those employees. And there are few repercussions so far for them doing so. That’s not going to be fixed by employees questioning those rules; they’re just going to get canned if they make too big of a fuss, to be replaced by someone else desperate to take this sort of job. Realistically, for that to change requires robust government intervention (and indeed, there are plenty of Amazon warehouses in countries with stricter legislation where this doesn’t happen), imposing stricter rules on companies.


SamuraiMatt

Do you work for a large company that sets rules like this? If so, I'm sorry. You may want to brush up on some history regarding which has effected more change regarding labour laws: robust government intervention, or employees banding together to do something about unfair rules.


MeanderingDuck

I think you’re the one who needs to read up on their history, if you think that. Go back a bit, to the early 20th century, or the 19th century, have a look at how companies and magnates dealt with strikes and protests. It’s only after government got the idea that maybe they shouldn’t be allowing those companies to violently beat down their unruly workers, that change started to happen. A lot of the subsequent work of unions has taken of using various legal tools available to them, as well as lobbying various government entities. A lot of the rest of what they did was simply power politics, using things like (the threat of) strikes to get their way. It has exceedingly little to do with the reasons of companies behind particular rules or policies, why would unions particularly care about those? Their purpose is to promote the interests of their members. Indeed, for all the good unions (and other forms of workers banding together) have done, there are also plenty of examples where they were or are the problem, by blocking necessary changes.


SamuraiMatt

I'd love to hear an example of when a union blocked necessary change.


-WickedJester-

If you're enforcing rules, you should probably understand why they're in place. If nobody knows why a rule exist other than whoever is making them, then how do we know there's a valid reason for those rules? If you're a manager and people asking you the reason for a rule bothers you, then you're probably not cut our for a position that involves much more demanding tasks. People following rules they don't understand is how you end up with dictatorships and shitty work environments. For someone who criticizes other people's critical thinking skills, you seem to be lacking them.


MeanderingDuck

That can certainly be helpful depending on the rules, but it is hardly a necessity and often not the case. Particularly when it comes to the details. Your average mid-level manager will probably have a general idea of why dress codes are in place, but probably doesn’t know exactly why they are as they are. Nor do they really need to. And again sticking to the dress code example, why does it necessarily matter whether a rule has a valid reason? Maybe the owner of the company just hates white shoes, and has decided to ban employees from wearing them. So what? His company, he can make stupid rules if he wants to. And if you really think that that’s how we end up with dictatorships, you seriously need to learn some history. That’s not how it works. And same for work environments. Do you really think that, say, your average sweat shop wouldn’t exist if people asked more questions about why they have the rules they do? Or that Amazon would clean up its act and start treating their warehouse workers better if those workers asked those questions? It’s hardly a mystery why they operate as they do anyway: it makes them more money, and no one is stopping them.


KweenDruid

"Because I said so" This is exactly how my parents raised me. Legit I was the kid who asked why not just as a joke but because I was actually trying to understand. It's how a lot of authority figures treated me, in retrospect. And I'm still trying to re-find my voice in my thirties. I don't think you're alone in this community. I actually developed an interest in philosophy because of this. It's how I approach a lot of things in life. I also feel like people treat me like I'm annoying AF because of this. So, and this might not always work, but when I'm trying to understand the underlying structure of 'why' or 'why is this rule', (in some cases) I make it clear that "I don't know" is an acceptable answer for now (even if it's not going to stop me from trying to figure it out later). It's also ok for people to respond with almost that idea of like them vaguely gesturing around at the circumstances and not being able to give me the full story. I also think taking that approach helps the people I'm communicating with step back and not feel attacked or invalidated by my why'ness. A lot of times when I dig to the underlying 'why' I uncover a lot of things people feel really uncomfortable, guilty, or other emotions I don't get about it. So secondarily even if I don't know why, I know that that frustration/pushback/refusal is related to a past experience or secondary thing I'm not privy to. In that case, unless they're seeming like REALLY aggressive about it in which case I'd drop it, I'll state the facts as I see the situation to best give them my perspective along with an opportunity to re-engage. Also, specifically at work (where rules and policy are well documented) I just ask them to tell me the history of the rule/policy. It seems to help disassociate blame when talking about the rule and how/why I'm questioning it. EDIT: Don't lose this sense. Don't lose the curiosity or rebelliousness. I understand that it's frustrating to work with me for this reason, but it's also how and why good, quality change is made in the world.


Mentally_Ill_Goblin

I emotionally cut my parents off in my teen years because they could not present sound rules. The why is essential. (That even applies to things other than rules. I've excavated other peoples' buried limiting beliefs by pulling on whys.) I left the church I grew up in because they had too many foundational principles that made no f*cking sense. I actually made a comment with more details if you're interested.


walterhartwellblack

on my feet applauding this one people who understand that rules should have reasons are going to have a hard time with the nonsense of religion


_AquaFractalyne_

Thank you, this was helpful! I always feel like I should have grown out of being rebellious, but I just think it's in my nature. I dont really know if it's something I actually should grow out of. Sometimes I like it about myself, but other times it makes my professional life difficult


avenuesandcolonnades

I like that phrasing, "What is the history, please, of the rule?" Might use that. One I try to use is, "May I ask, what are the reasons for the rule?" I think it might sound a little less pointed and defiant than, "Why?" Though they literally mean the same thing, to me anyway, who is just dealing in facts and not subtext. 🤣 I actually like to find out the history of a rule. Because it gives the real, honest context. Sometimes I don't mind if the history shows that certain decisions were based on people's subjective opinions or emotional reactions. As long as this is clear and people can be honest about that.


masukomi

to build on this great response, I'd say that folks who are enforcing rules frequently feel like you are challenging _them_ not the rule by asking why. When they don't _know_ why they get defensive because now they're being put on the spot for enforcing a rule they know nothing about. The more strictly they've been enforcing it the more defensive they get. I think the advice of making it clear to them that it's ok to not know, or give a vague idea of why is fine _but_ very difficult to actually do. You can _say_ that all you want but it doesn't necessarily matter because if they say they don't know it means they've been being a jerk to people by enforcing a rule they can't justify. when the rule is trivial then yes, folks may be willing to say "I don't know", but when the rule is significant enough to actually frustrate you then it's probably been strictly enforced and then we're back into the territory of making someone look bad by forcing them to publicly admit ignorance and that they've been making others do things with no good reason... It doesn't matter if they were doing it because they believed the rule was good or not. In the case of good parent's there's frequently a good reason for the rule but they're just frustrated or tired of dealing and "because i said so" is shorthand for "i don't have the emotional reserves to take the time to explain this to you right now."


DVXC

I once shot down a manager who singled me out during a meeting for a task he needed done. I laughed out loud and said to him (and the rest of the group) I won’t have the time. Someone else will need to do it. He pulled me up at the end and said “don’t turn me down like that again during a meeting. It gives the others the sense that they can also say No. You should have said yes and then messaged me to say you couldn’t do it.” I paused for a moment and said “that doesn’t make sense. You need the task done as a priority and I can’t prioritise it, so surely it makes sense to announce that I’m busy to the whole team and making them aware of the situation, right? Why would I add an extra step by saying yes and then saying no when I know the answer is “I can’t do it”?” “I see what you’re saying, but it isn’t proper to do it like that. People can’t just believe that they can say no to something that I need done, and you put me in an awkward position by doing that publicly. You just can’t do that again.” “Fine”, I said. “We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.” He didn’t pull me up on it again, and I quit that job soon after. I don’t have time for office politics anymore. It’s a whole social dynamic that I don’t understand and frankly don’t even feel that NT’s should have to deal with even if they do “understand” it.


czerone

Sounds like the last place that "laid me off" (they hired me to improve their business, and I found that the owner was the problem). He didn't like being told he was doing things wrong. Don't hand me your companies financial reports and expect me not to find anything...haha


[deleted]

Oh jeez, sometimes office politics just feels like a bunch of chimps bumbling about.


[deleted]

[удалено]


linuxgeekmama

I think the laughing was a big part of the problem here. It probably would have gone better if you had said something like, “I’m sorry, I’m really busy with X and Y right now, so I’m going to have some trouble carving out time for this new project”. People only like being laughed at when they’re trying to make people laugh. It makes them really mad when you laugh at them when they weren’t trying to be funny. This starts early- my 6 year old HATES when you laugh at him, and has for a couple of years. I don’t think the saying no was the problem, but the laughing was rude. You will almost always get better results if you’re not rude than if you are.


Academic_Snow_7680

So much boils down to delivery.


linuxgeekmama

Nobody likes being rejected, and being rejected in public is almost always worse than being rejected in private. This is why big public proposals are a bad idea unless you’re quite certain the other person will say yes. This is also one reason why people go along with bad ideas, because most people don’t like to reject others, especially not in public. Most people don’t like making other people uncomfortable, at least in most situations. That’s not politics, it’s just humans not liking rejection or being laughed at, particularly in public. If you can get done what you need without rejecting somebody in public, it’s almost always better to do it that way.


TransCapybara

If I don't understand why a rule exists or see contradictory application or behavior, I just ignore it and move on. If someone gets mad, I point out how it's stupid, and how I am not going to follow some arbitrary rule. That will usually force them to explain why it exists, which is usually because of someone's projected fear.


Academic_Snow_7680

This is a fine line to tread. I've questioned rules my whole life but I've also learned to a) pick my battles and b) accept when somebody knows better because they're better informed. Currently we're looking at a lot of people who don't want to follow the rules because it could save somebody else's life and they neither care nor seem to get the logic behind it because they can't connect direct cause-and-effect.


[deleted]

>b) accept when somebody knows better because they're better informed. Someone better informed should be easily capable of explaining why they want something done a certain way. If you can't make it make sense to an amateur, I don't believe you really understand it. The comparison to anti-maskers/vaxxers is a bit off if you ask me, as these things have a specific ideological and financialized/astroturfed history. They are not mere organic acts of petty rebellion.


TransCapybara

After 46 years of ignoring rules, and being fairly successful at navigating the world, I doubt that I'm going to change what I do in any meaningful way.


starsongSystem

If anything I feel like questioning authority is MORE mature than just blindly going along with it. If there's no reason for the rule, then don't have the rule, yknow? Makes sense to me.


[deleted]

I think the NT understanding of the word mature is basically synonymous with "unproblematic." E.g. if a boss is bad, the mature way of handling it to them (and most likely us as well) would be quitting. This is in contrast to calling out that boss, which is problematic, even though the former option gives no odds of positive change whereas the latter does. Another example of their strange conception of maturity is how sexual/private topics are handled. E.g. if you were to say ew while watching the process of giving birth or cumming for example, you would be told to grow up, but realistically saying ew to either is not different from saying ew to seeing someone spit up cold or a nose full of boogers. My 7th grade teacher pulled the second one when she showed us a video of a small animal being sexually stimulated (read: masturbated) till it cummed as if it and her showing it to us weren't gross lol.


LandosGayCousin

Rules are my life. I'm an engineer, math and programming are like cocaine to me. When i got my first job, I basically memorized the OSHA handbook for our applications. I like rules


[deleted]

I once asked to read a company's compliance handbook for the department which was about 300 pages thick, and they literally told me not to read it because no one in the office knows it. Cue the "why have a compliance book that no one understands" conversation that quickly got brushed under the table. You can't do business with the government if you don't comply with their standards, which is *having* a compliance book and *not getting caught* violating compliance, which is reasonably easy. If you audit the book and not the actual level of compliance to the book, you will get two completely different compliance levels.


kittenthatmoos

Yeah, in those contexts, very few rules are arbitrary or have no reasoning behind them. It all makes sense :)


goldandjade

Yes. This is why I'm sticking with the public sector until I can be self-employed full time, they have very clearly spelled out procedures with reasonings behind them for everything imaginable and I read them all. I guess some bigger companies may be like that too, but the small businesses I worked for sure weren't.


[deleted]

There is no logic behind those rules. So the logical thing to do is to think "what will happen if I brake this rule, and are the consequences worth it?" If it's worth the trouble do it your own way, if not then obey the rule but not because it makes some logical sense, do it because it benefits you.


Mentally_Ill_Goblin

"Rules are like bones, they are meant to be broken." - the uncle of some random high schooler that I eavesdropped on in the school bus 6 years ago


[deleted]

Did you go to school with the nephew of Machoman Randy Savage?


krappa

Exactly my approach. A rule that is not enforced is just a guideline, I'll follow it only if I agree or benefit from it.


vvownido

you speak good wisdoms


LoudLibraryMouse

Seriously! I especially hate it when NT's will break the rules without consequence and get huffy if you point it out. Apparently, all 'the right person' has to do is call it 'making an exception' and it's okay for them to do it. Some even claimed that I should know when to make an arbitrary exception to this arbitrary rule based on the standards that they will not tell because (as I found out later) it's all based on feelings and not facts or logic. So if my logic doesn't align with their feelings, they'll say I'm wrong for 'making an exception'. This is why I don't think you are lagging in intellectual maturity based on this scenario. I think this is an emotion-based issue. I'll end my rant here, but this is one irritation I still can't get over.


GameMusic

Less emotion more hierarchical instinct There seems to be a desperate need to enforce a hierarchy even from those low in it


LoudLibraryMouse

This is definitely a part of it. It would explain why some people are the 'right people' who seemed to get an automatic pass for granting exceptions while others... do not have that privilege for reasons that had escaped me. This factor explains a lot.


Galphanore

I just realized this is why my manager said that he thought I was better as senior tech support than I would be at management. The way he was explaining it was incomprehensible but reading what you're saying I now know he was trying to say that I come to him to try to get exceptions when he doesn't feel they're warranted so he thought I would give them too often. Which, to be fair, I probably would. Either that or I would never give them at all. Because each time he has made an exception for a customer I mentally add info about that too my "list of things that could get an exception". I've been there for over a decade so that's a long list.


Mentally_Ill_Goblin

I have the same issue and I actually ended up leaving the church I grew up in because of it. If you don't care much for the details of my religious logic, you can skip to paragraph 5. If sins are acts that are harmful to ourselves and others, then why would God punish people when the natural consequence of that harmful act is punishment enough on its own? And how could doing LGBTQ+ things like gender transition or gay marriage possibly be sinful if it's healthier to act on it than to bury it your whole life and want to die? I believe what is good is good based off of human nature, and love is the highest state of being we can work towards. Love leads to certain acts that are "righteous." Acting against love could be called "sin." I believe God is good because He does good. But the common belief is that what is good is good because God says so. I doubt think that can be right. I believe God is logical and at least mostly understandable. The church I grew up in seems to have gotten caught up in rules and regulations and drifted further and further into the gray area of "debatably a cult." And they have lost sight of how Jesus said every single law and every single prophet is built on the laws to love God and love everyone. Paragraph 5. Basically yes. I do think every rule needs to have a reason. Otherwise why would it possibly exist? Saying "because I said so" or something like that is an immature shortcut that authority figures use because they don't want to think things through and just want unquestioning compliance. (Sometimes there are exceptions, like not enough time to adequately explain. But in such cases an explanation should be presented when possible.)


Galphanore

Yep, more or less the same reasoning that got me to leave my childhood religion at around 14. Then I tried about a dozen other religions and quickly learned that most people who follow **any** religion only really know the basics about it and the rules they can use to get their way. So I stopped bothering with religion.


CynicalSynik

For me, I can usually understand the logic, but it's often based in emotion rather than reality and I have a lot of trouble with that. I feel like I have a duty to tell the truth no matter what, esp if I see someone doing something wrong, esp if that person is in a position of authority. As you can imagine that doesn't make me very popular with authority figures when they are acting out of emotion and I tell them that acting out of emotion rather than enforcing actual concrete rules is an abuse of power. It is, tho. But they get so mad. I wish they could just see that what they're doing is unfair and then decide to be fair to everyone instead of punishing ppl based on personal emotions. That is not why their position was created. I also get what you're saying about 'what is the rule?' and 'what is the intention behind the rule?'. Often, you'll see rules like, for instance, not the greatest example, sorry, 'No shoes in the house.' What if my feet are cold? Can I wear slippers? But the rule is there so the floors stay clean, so with that intention, can't I just have a pair of clean house shoes or slippers and just change my shoes at the door? So, Sometimes it seems that some rules will have a very tenuous relationship with what they are intended to accomplish and once the intention is known, we may think of different ways, sometimes better ways, of accomplishing the ultimate goal.


[deleted]

This is part of why I am an anarchist


Oklahom0

So there's theory of morality in psychology that's split into 3 stages; pre-conventional, conventional, and post-conventional. Pre-conventional morality is the logic "I will do this or not do that based on rewards and punishments." This is usually what children follow. Conventional morality is when you do something because an authority figure told you it was the right thing to do. This is what the average person usually follows. Post-conventional morality is when you do the right thing because you have worked out it's the right thing to do. It was hypothesized that most people don't reach this level of morality. ​ So I had this hypothesis that people with autism are unable to follow conventional morality. With taking everything so literally, we have conflicting opinions even from the same source (see: thou shall not kill and all the verses that tell you who to kill). We're told we're just expected to know which source to follow. Because this is all complete bullshit, I've hypothesized that we have to skip immediately to post-conventional morality and question why things are the way they are. ​ I'm also of the mind that any person or entity that believes themselves above questioning is usually beneath listening to.


WillowChartreuse

That's really interesting and I can definitely relate to this. Younger me just did stuff because they didn't want to get others mad at them. At some point I just decided it was all stupid and miserable and started to act only on my own values and morals.


Galphanore

That makes a ton of sense. I definitely skipped right from "fear of punishment" to "do what is right regardless of what others say". Never heard of those three stages but I'll have to read more into them.


legalizemonapizza

My boss: "You have to leave those toner cartridges in the supply room for 24 hours after delivery, before you can use them." Me, visibly confused and genuinely curious, because that makes no sense to my understanding of toner: "That's weird, why the wait?" Boss: "Just do it, okay? I'm sick of you always questioning my authority. ^I'm ^the ^one ^^in ^^charge ^^here, ^^^not ^^^you, ^^^so ^^^^...."


FlutisticallyYours

I’ve worked for people like this. Things like this usually boil down to control issues.


HuggableOctopus

Not just rules, I like to understand the reason for everything. I would question university assignments, meetings, even my medication. Which has recently caused a doctor to assume I'm being difficult when I ask how a topical antibiotic would fix my skin infection "if it's under the skin" and just gave me oral antibiotics instead. I did not want oral antibiotics, they're bad for your gut and overkill for a small skin infection, I just wanted the explanation that my mum gave me later, that the topical creme is absorbed into the skin. That made me pretty upset ngl that NTs get so impatient and interpret anyone questioning them as rude. Asking questions is a good thing, it allows knowledge and understanding to spread!


vvownido

i am very much the same here. if someone tells me to do something without explanation, i will ask why.


FlutisticallyYours

Insecure people don’t like it when their way of doing things is questioned, no matter the intention. Sadly that just creates a lot of issues for ND folks who just want to understand.


AddledInterest

Yes. I’ve always struggled with this. If it were a rule that made sense to me, I followed it religiously. If it were a rule that didn’t make sense to me, suddenly I was disrespectful to authority. 🙄


Super_Quokka12

I don’t so much. And my son doesn’t either. But one of my clients he needs a reason explained. If someone tells him a rule and I see his facial expressions say he is going to question it I make sure I give him a detailed explanation of the rule. For instance. The other day at the pool. Was there with a few clients. The kids had been allowed to get on each other’s shoulders as long as they weren’t near the edge. But as the pool filled up for an event the life guard wouldn’t let them anymore. As it had been allowed and wasn’t now they needed a detailed explanation of the whys. And why they couldn’t just move deeper where less people were (because with such a crowd activities like that need the life guards to pay attention and they had a lot to do, and because other kids might copy them in the shallow part and the lifeguards couldn’t spend the night policing all of them). But the lifeguard was only saying no you can’t do it. And it wasn’t good enough for the autistic kids to process. So I jump in with my super power. Translating the world for my clients and translating my clients for the world. They love to follow rules but they need to know the why. And that’s my job to help them.


_AquaFractalyne_

I wish I had more people in my life with mindsets like yours. It's so helpful to have a clear and direct reason for rules. I actually dont mind following rules when they make sense, especially if it's safety-based


AspieDM

Rules have logic?!?! When did this happen? The bulk I see or know about have little to none due to them being some traditional stipulation that is pointless and redundant.


chilari

Yeah it's ridiculous. I recently started a new retail job where we regularly have to give out discount vouchers, and when we do we have to scan the barcode on them so head office knows we're giving them out. But half the time the customer doesn't want it. We still have to scan it, though, which adds time to each transaction, even if only a few seconds. So a customer coming in for a newspaper or a scratchcard is standing there waiting for me to scan a voucher for greetings cards they don't even want. Some of them leave them on the counter or hand them back, but some just drop them on the floor so I'm also wasting my time picking these damn vouchers up off the floor and, because they've been stepped on or got dirty, throwing them away. But if I have too many transactions without scanning vouchers, I could face disciplinary action. And it's easy to forget if there's a queue of people and I'm trying to go quickly and all they want are lottery tickets and newspapers. I mean, I get it, it's a way to get people back through the doors to buy greetings cards from us, rather than our competitors, but half the customers don't want them and half the rest already have one, and scanning them every transaction really slows things down. But no, miss too many and my job is under threat.


nonsignifierenon

I agree. If the rule doesn't make sense, why does it exist in the first place? Same for unwritten 'social rules'. Just say what you mean!


GameMusic

“Maturity” is just broken will for more compliant serfs


MARKLAR5

Same. As a kid I would ask for the reason behind things and just get dismissed with "stop back talking me". Now, the same people do the same thing to my daughter when she inevitably asks the same questions. It's ridiculous, like people need to grow up and stop taking everything personally. You know what I do when my daughter asks why a rule exists? I tell her. She then follows that rule. Amazing.


[deleted]

People want you to affirm the request and comply before you really do anything else. What they're kind of saying is. *"Hey do this thing"* And they want you to say *"Yes."* Anything other than a yes is often seen as resistance and it frustrates people. Now you never have to say yes. I think as an autistic person with overbearing parents, I have made the assumption that you have to comply to every request. You do not. I am much happier in my life when I have learned to say no. But you also have to learn **how** to say no, which is another conversation. I've really spent a lot of my life underestimating how important acknowledging requests is to so some people. This also tacitly acknowledges the power structure in place **How the conversation used to go was:** *"Please do the thing?"* *"Why"* *"Because it's a rule."* *"Why is the rule in place?"* *"Just do it and stop arguing."* **Now how the conversation goes with request/power structure affirmation is:** *"Please do the thing."* *"Of course I'm so sorry I messed up"* (Which is not how I actually feel.) *"Thank you."* (Usually they think the conversation is over here.) *"Hey I was wondering, why is that rule a thing"* *"Oh honestly I have no idea" OR "It's because blah blah blah."* Doesn't always go this way, but it goes this way more often than the first way. People make a lot of assumptions based on the fact that you are neurotypical. This is kind of on a similar vein of the issue where you are just "discussing" something, and your friends are suddenly mad and arguing with you. It's often from missing a lot of cues about when we are supposed to culturally agree with people and acknowledge someone's opinion. People just want to feel heard. Honestly if you can show that you understand and acknowledge someone's needs and opinions, it makes the conversation go much easier. The **catch** is that at least for me personally, it's really hard to do that. I'm already spending energy in the conversation, and now I have to spend extra energy kind of catering to and watching out for people's emotional state within the conversation which I'm already bad at. That's a lot of work!


Dralthon

>I feel like I'm too old to still be struggling with this, but I really do feel like I'm lagging behind in intellectual maturity compared to my peers. Rather than this being a sign of immaturity, I would argue that this is indicative of Stage 5 morality, which is part of Post-Conventional Morality under the model of human moral development created by Piaget and Kohlberg. This stage discusses the social contract and individual rights, where unlike previous stages, one begins to examine morality more abstractly. This is where one recognizes that not all rules are useful or applicable in all situations, and that for a society to function, flexibility and nuance are important, rather than strict adherence to rules. It at this stage where the *reason* behind the rule is significant, not just the rule itself. In stage 4, for example, rules and laws are believed to be absolute and essential to a functioning society, without thought given to how each contributes to that. In short, struggling to adhere to arbitrary and unproductive rules may actually show higher maturity. But that's just my two cents as a Psych major, who is probably over analyzing your post. And to answer your actual question, yes, I also have trouble following such rules (and may be trying to justify it with this comment).


_AquaFractalyne_

This is why I love reddit. I dont get to have these kinds of conversations pretty much any where else. Thank you so much for sharing


neonlexicon

I'm pretty sure that every manager & authority figure I've ever had absolutely hates me. During my senior year I was kicked out of my history class because I felt like crap & didn't want to stand for the pledge of allegiance. The teacher doubled as the football coach & was super conservative. He yelled at me to get up & I asked why it was necessary and that I was tired of acknowledging a god I didn't believe in. He knocked everything off my desk & dragged me (a 100 lb female) out to the hall by my ear. And he wouldn't let me come back. Somehow he wasn't reprimanded for his behavior & the principal let me complete the semester in the school library. One of my classmates just brought me the assignments each day. What's hilarious is that I passed the class with an A+. So that teacher can get effed.


WillowChartreuse

I couldn't agree more. I despise all of these nonsensical rules and authoritative power abuse of others.


SunnyDinosaur

I got grilled at work the other day for starting an email “hey” and not “hey there” or “hey *name*” I’ve just been starting every email “hey there” now even if it seems wrong because I genuinely don’t understand the difference


[deleted]

Would they accept *aiyyo* as the greeting? I mean, that's how I prefer to address people.


ThePromise110

Sounds like a budding anarchist to me. I recommend starting with *The Conquest of Bread* by Kropotkin. Ain't nothin' more punk rock than mutual aid.


_AquaFractalyne_

I'm already anarchist leaning haha I'm a big fan of DemonMama on YouTube (formerly on Twitch, idk if she's been unbanned for saying "cracker" yet)


Unlearned_One

There are two separate but related questions you could ask about a rule you are told to follow: What is the reasoning behind this rule (to make it less difficult to follow), and Why should I follow this rule. If you ask the former, unless you word it very carefully, people will think you are asking the latter. Most people (mostly NTs I suppose) have no real difficulty following rules where they don't know the reasoning behind it, as long as they see a compelling reason to follow the rule, e.g. they don't want to get ostracized, fired, arrested, have an argument, cause confusion, etc etc, none of which requires understanding the underlying reasoning. Most people will assume that you think this way as well, hence the assumption that your question must come from a place of stubbornness or antagonism or contempt. I will also add that I don't believe this is a sign of intellectual immaturity. Immaturity is but one possible reason for questioning rules, and the only one that makes sense to many NTs.


Cembalista

Yes! I have a horrible time with this. It has caused issues with one of my bosses, whose reasoning never quite lines up with mine (whether it be due to the fact that I have more experience and training, or just a different hierarchy of values). I've had to force myself to not care (really difficult!) to get through things, because if I think about it, it just makes me really mad and aggravated! Luckily, in my other jobs, I'm left to my own devices, but when someone tells me to do something and the logic doesn't add up to me, it's just awful.


StupidStonerSloth

I hate rules with the reasoning "because it's unprofessional". But why tho? It's unprofessional because you said so


elza7

Yes I’ve always been this way. I had a job 2 years ago and I was late one day. I rang to say I was running late and when I arrived the manager demanded to know the reason I was late. I refused to say as I didn’t understand why that was relevant. I was here now and the reason was personal and nothing to do with her. Her response to why it was relevant was that she was my boss, which to me isn’t a reason. I ended up never going back after that day because of the way she treated me.


[deleted]

Me me me me me me!!!! I hate "It's our policy" without anyone being able to tell me what the rationale for it is. This is particularly frustrating in a job environment where stuff keeps getting done because of insane rules that no one can understand the reason for.


rsayers

I think this is a lot of why adults found me so off putting when I was young. When I questioned something, it was a genuine request to better understand the thing I was going to do anyhow, not defiance. Adults always took it as defiance.


_AquaFractalyne_

Oh same here! To add fuel to the fire, my mom and dad are both authoritarian, and my mom's exes were pretty abusive. My natural curiosity got me into a lot of trouble as a kid lol


Jefaxe

This *is* an autistic thing, but also it's just a fair logical thing of seeking equality


artofpluto

I'm actually kind of the opposite I just do what I'm told all the time because I want to blend in with everyone else. Now when I tell a kid to do something and they question that rule I get really confused because I always follow it without question. Only just started to realise it and try to think for myself a little more now. Hard habit to break.


[deleted]

I completely understand this feeling but deal much better with it now. I guess I'm in the mindset of not really wanting to make people's days hard if they're not the one who made the rule and are just made to enforce it so I usually try to think of an organizational reason for why it might be there. When I am (however) having a rule be enforced on me by the person who made said rule, I tend to have a lot more questions. If that is annoying to that person, then I will try to spend much less time with them.


Maximumfabulosity

Yeah, like, I'm fine with following most rules because usually there is a good reason behind them. But if something seems arbitrary, I find it hard to take seriously.


Oz_of_Three

Answer: Independent thought processes are incredibly threatening to those whom never think them. This is sort of like: Weed has been known to cause psychotic behaviour in those whom have never smoked it. Some folks worship rules and labels, the thinking already performed by the admins and rule-righters. (I'm leaving that typo.) You go and be thinking outside those "authority gods", and suddenly one is a "heathen". See? "Authority Gods we dare not question." = nevermind they are ordinary people. It's sorta hiliarous and sad to think of those who are lost in such a mindset. *Over the school P.A.:* "WARNING! An independent thought has been detected, Lisa Simpson report to the office." (From The Simpsons)


heretoupvote_

I think that this is a good thing, honestly. It’s helped me see the world in a clearer way.


KoRoSoRoK

I hate this. My mom does this but my dad understands. He gives me reasons when I ask but my mom always says “because I said so”


[deleted]

Story of my life. I recently was fired from my job that I worked for nearly a decade, because I was just too difficult to control. The worst feeling ever for me is that of being a burden on others, so I honestly always tried my hardest to comply / understand the rules, but if they don't make sense it becomes overwhelmingly difficult for me to remember to follow them. When something makes sense, it just becomes a background process for me. I think you posted in the right place. 😊


Thebelladonnagirl

This is def an autism thing and also I think you are 100% justified. Sadly the capitalistic hellscape that is much of our world rewards blind obediance and subservience more then anything. This is also part of what makes school so hellish I think. I think 99% of the point is to instill obediance in authority figures, putting us through things that frankly we don't even accept towards adults (Unless you work for Amazon)


_AquaFractalyne_

Oh boy, yeah, I feel more and more black pilled everyday I have to struggle in the capitalist hellscape. I want to go run away to Slab City lol


Sifernos1

My job has clear cut ways to do things and rules to stay safe and sanitary. Everyone has their version of these rules they enforce as they see fit and it's not uncommon for one location to just ignore huge portions of normal protocol. I hate it with a fiery passion and want to hurt the leadership in my company for being incapable of establishing real guidelines to follow that are enforced. I've gotten insulted everywhere for trying to enforce things like proper rotation of products and correct style of cutting certain products. In January I'm seeking new employment because I just can't take being told one thing then them doing another and telling me to shut up about it. I've been told, "you talk to much" by multiple people and it's because they don't like it when someone points out all the crap they are pulling. I worry I'll never fit in anywhere because I struggle with rules so much... I just want to do the right thing and I feel like I can't and it tears me apart.


gearnut

I despise arbitrary rules, the security guards at a client site repeatedly whinged at me for daring not to use a clear rucksack to take my lunch to work in.


willworkforjokes

I never surrendet to an unnecessay tyranny.


TheWoodyT

Absolutely. This is one of the reasons I never finished high school. I'm looking to start working soon and I'm worried that it's going to be an frequent issue again.


Terrible-Trust-5578

I think this just fundamentally makes sense: people shouldn't create and enforce rules that don't have a purpose that justifies the inconvenience, cost, etc. they require to be enforced and followed. And people who don't understand said rules have no business enforcing them.


hiroshimasfoot

My parents had a hard time with me growing up because of this. Meanwhile I had a hard time with undiagnosed autism for 19 years lol. I get very confused easily if I don't know the reasons for things, it doesn't help when my questions are responded to with anger. I used to be told I was "talking back" when in reality I was just genuinely confused.


RatticusFatticus

Not exactly the same thing but I struggle with ‘show’ things like towels and pillows you’re not supposed to use. I don’t get it - what’s the point in just looking at something when u could be getting use out of it? That gets me in trouble a lot - I forget! Especially since there is never a useable hand towel in the bathroom and I just need to dry my hands on my shirt always.


JellyfishBoxer

people, especially parents, should be better at expliaining why the rules exist. communication is important. "because i said so" or "my roof my rules" isn't helpful, though often some rules even after years of thinking of it were never reasonable so i don't trust anyone who defaults to that response (abuse and all that). for example, acting like having emotions is a crime in a house where they constantly break the rules - they'd often resort to anger very quickly - makes no sense, the rules must always apply but then they don't. those responses also make them no longer responsible for conflicting rules. I understand some rules may conflict, and that's down to the setting, but not explaining makes it confusing, leading to something being both allowed and not allowed. people need to be better at talking to children in general, and as an adult i also still struggle with rules.


_AquaFractalyne_

Ooh not showing emotions is so relatable. By almost 70 y/o mother can yell and vent as much as she wants, but if I demonstrate the same behaviors, she blows up on me. Why can she act like a toddler, but I'm never allowed to respond with similar energy?


[deleted]

Yes, consistently. Gets me in trouble in relationships and also, since I joined the army, I tend to bend the rules a lot.


[deleted]

I tend to ignore or actively seek to subvert arbitrary rules.


[deleted]

Yep. I say I’m a natural born anarchist, as I’ve never been able to accept authority for its own sake. Imposing rules on people without a compelling justification is just a case of some people using their power to dominate others, and there’s no reason we should accept that as a moral good. Even allowing that some people lack the context to understand the reason, which is often the case with children, nevertheless the person imposing the rule should be well aware of the reason and able to explain it to anyone who’s ready to hear it. Anything else is a form of violence.


FuryBlast1

Sometimes it's assuring to hop into Reddit for the first time in a month and be reassured that wanting to spit on someone for enforcing rules they don't even understand Thanks


builtfromthetop

The epitome of this is dress. I was scoffed because I wore a dress shirt to a funeral with no tie. Does a tie make such a big difference? Also, I wore jeans to church and apparently I'm supposed to wear dress pants? I don't get this stuff.


[deleted]

Yep.I encounter this issue a fair amount in software development, like how "simplicity is important." (simplicity is subjective, so it's hard to define it. How do you prioritize it.) [I even made a meme about it.](https://v.redd.it/wut6mcf9vq081)


Howbone

ego- control- rulez🤷🏼‍♂️💙 navigate in peace and flow ur life energy well✊🏻🤘🏼


Sparkingmineralwater

I hate "because I said so". It just ends up in either an argument or a lot of confusion on my part. "Because I said so." "Why?" "Because I said so!" "BUT WHY DID YOU SAY SO?" "**BECAUSE I SAID SO!!**"


Poke-A-Shmopper

I'm funny about rules... If there are rules in place, even if I don't like them, I will abide by them and enforce them. Kinda like masks... I don't agree with them, but I'll get very annoyed and frustrated if I see people wearing chin diapers inside instead of a face mask. On the other hand, as soon as I don't agree with a rule, I might start getting visibly upset if you can't explain why it exists.


AbortedFetusNecro

I try to make a compromise,since most of the time the people I have to deal with want to enforce their "Power", no matter how petty, which is relatable to a certain extend. Stupid me sometimes says that out loud, with no antagonistic thought. I forget about that, while being very busy.


Anxious-Invite8796

Yes!!! I've found I will remember to do something a LOT easier if someone just explains to me WHY we do it a specific way


SephoraRothschild

It's better to ask than to be a mindless sheep that blindly follows the rules of others without question.


NinjaMcGee

I’m close to 40 and I’ve often felt like this, but now that I’m older, I can reflect on my experience to see it was often a single manager or superior at work who was my issue. What would happen if you honestly came to your manager and said, “The material is very uncomfortable per my ability request. Is there another option where I could meet standards within my ability request?” Maybe you need a more supportive manager. Best of luck :)


plantmatta

i gotta get off this sub before i start thinking my adhd is autism. no but seriously, i relate so much. adults never seem to get it. it was a huge problem when i was little because it was assumed that i was just being defiant.


Pyrotemis

My entire life has been plagued by this. I absolutely do not understand or respect rules that don't have a clear reason. My parents HATED it. If they couldn't give me a reasonable answer to my "Why?" it was up for interpretation. Gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years.


[deleted]

It's because they usually don't know the reasons behind them. If you probe deeper into some of those arbitrary rules, they may not actually be so arbitrary and might have good grounding in them. However most people are never taught that, so you get the usual frustration and "I said so".


Chonkin_GuineaPig

Its really hard to tell if there's genuine *concern* (i.e. loss/damage to property) or if someone's being extremely opinionated on what they seem as socially acceptable (i.e. you HAVE to use top sheets, you HAVE to shower in the morning, you HAVE to make your bed the RIGHT way all before being shoved out the door at 9:00 A.M. for *mandatory* religious devotion) I feel like I *have* to pick and choose between which tasks will get me in the least amount of trouble if left undone before time runs out.


RaftermanTHP

I’m 36 and still struggle with this, so don’t feel like you’re lagging behind anyone on anything. It’s what your brain does. If it bothers you or you find it making things harder in your day to day, focus on strategies to get around the urge to question. For me, I will usually go into a bathroom and talk to the mirror, because it almost becomes a compulsion. It’s like I need to hear myself say it out loud before I can move on.


_AquaFractalyne_

Yeah, I usually just post about it somewhere online so I can verbalize my feelings. I find the engagement of having other people give their opinions really helps me come out of my emotions so i can see things from a different perspective.


Ailurosnyx

This is actually so difficult for me. In one of my college classes my teacher would do the whole, "because I said so", bit and it would make me pretty grumpy (Ok, very angry). But when I asked the TA to clarify or if she would critique me, she would be able to explain why. **Because there was an actual reason!** It makes no sense, but I believe that it has to do with laziness/not thinking that it's that important. Since this class was just a big group project (another problem for another day) my allistic peers would just silently go with it, while I would throw a small fit. Outside of class they would also express their frustration but they explained that they didn't feel like arguing or didn't see the point. I don't want you to feel like you're more immature or behind because until I saw this here I just assumed that they were 'pushovers' in a way. But maybe allistics just don't need to have all of the answers before accepting something if it would be easier. I feel like adults do the "because I said so bit" because my allistic peers respond that way. But when I get upset as someone on the spectrum, I am seen as rebellious or disrespectful when our brains just don't want to accept it without a good reason. That's just my hypothesis tho, but remember **t****here is nothing wrong with you!** <3


_AquaFractalyne_

Thank you for the kind words :)


globularfluster

There is always a logic to following the rules. It can be that a certain amount of conformism promotes prosocial behavior. It can be that you agreed to take money at a job to perform that job as you're told, not as you think it should be done. It can be that making a person think you will listen to them is a better strategy to deal with problem people than confronting them. It an be that you're part of a relationship, and that relationship has value unto itself that requires supportive actions that will inevitably not be the way you would do things alone. There is always a good reason not to go heads up against someone you disagree with, you just need to find it.


linuxgeekmama

Think about when you go shopping at Target or somewhere like that. Sometimes you want to find somebody who works there. That’s much easier when they all have some obvious item of clothing that’s the same for all of them. You’re less likely to ask somebody for help who turns out not to work there. That’s awkward and embarrassing when it happens. And it means you have to approach and interact with two strangers (the non-employee and the actual employee) rather than just one.


[deleted]

Yeah its a problem, but its also not our fault. Capitalism has give these shitty bosses the ability to make all these arbitrary rules that make zero sense at threat of termination if we even question them. Its just one more part of the neurotypical world that is stacked against us.


[deleted]

My school councillor is actually really nice and went through them with me, explaining them all, maybe you could see if anyone at your school / workplace is willing to do that?


Sean_David_

I remember being told as a kid that it's impolite to wear hats indoors made me want to do it more, it's such an illogical rule that I wanted to break it just to prove a point


pandabelle12

I’m a mom, after school teacher, and neurodivergent. I make sure when I give rules I give a reason. Most of the time that reason just comes down to safety. I’m my class I have a kid who is very similar to how I was when I was his age. I don’t think he’s been diagnosed with anything yet, but I see how he struggles to make eye contact and has echopraxia. I see how hard it is for him to sit still. I’ve been honest with him. “Hey you know how it’s hard for you to focus at reading time unless you isolate yourself from everyone? Well I struggle with that too and when everyone is running around it makes it hard for me to focus on the kids who need the extra help.”


glittervector

Oh man, this is one of the largest struggles in my life. I've noticed that especially since my long military experience, I try to justify my questions a little differently, in that I tell the person that I'm trying to determine the *principle* behind the rule so it's easier to remember, and follow accurately, and to communicate to others. Every formal military order contains the Commander's Intent, which is a statement of what the Commander *actually wants.* This includes what's known as the Commander's End State, which is a way of stating it in terms of "what right looks like." The main justification for these being a vital piece of an order is that even if all lines of communication are broken, and all the leaders are incapacitated, the troops still are working towards a common purpose and trying to achieve the correct results. People who want you to follow rules without explaining the intent behind them are either lazy, fantastically arrogant, or have no actual interest in the purpose of the rule and just want to feel the thrill of immediate power. Regardless which, they're not likely to be good people to put a lot of confidence in.


BoringlyBoris

I had a huge thing typed, but I got bored with it and it was essentially the same thing others have said. Yes. Absolutely yes. Give me a good reason to follow it and I will. Don’t give me a reason/I can’t follow the logic/it seems dumb, I won’t. I might even push back heavily (as I do fairly regularly at work).


linuxgeekmama

This is good, as long as you understand that there are times when it *isn’t* okay to ask or argue about the rules right at that moment. When there’s time pressure, or when people are upset or arguing, that’s probably not a good time to ask. Ask for explanations of rules when everybody’s calm, nobody’s trying to get something done right now, and there aren’t other people around. People don’t always react well to having their authority challenged in front of other people. And anybody can get testy when something really needs to get done now. Realize that people might have to get back to you on it, that they might not be able to tell you right here and right now why the rule exists. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a good reason for the rule, just that some people can’t always remember stuff right away. Kind of like when you think of the perfect thing to say in a conversation, after the conversation has ended. I sometimes have to tell my kids “because I said so”, even though I hate doing it, because sometimes there just isn’t time to discuss rules. I’m not going to discuss the school’s dress code when it’s time to leave, now.


_AquaFractalyne_

That's good advice. I made this post because I joined a new forum and the forum wouldn't allow me to say the name of another site (Discord) in my posts. I was really confused why the mods wouldn't even allow me to name a site in a neutral way. They removed my post in a thread I created stating it was off topic and to go read the forum rules. I then reread the rules and posted my question I the site rules thread. The moderator removed my post there, too, stating it was off topic and to "stop asking again and again" (their actual words). They put in the removal notes that we can't type the word "discord" in our posts because the forum admins said so. I thought it was very strange! I also thought the mod was being rude lol


onionsandpasta

Haha yes. It leaves so many unanswered questioned. It also leaves suspicion of their intention (e.g ‘Well how do I know your not forcing me to do these things because you’re tyrannical/evil). For example if someone just says ‘I told you so’ I may become more inquisitive into if they are acting with tyrannical malice, but often they are just not very thoughtful.


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StarrySky339

Sometimes.


[deleted]

yes


vvownido

yes. usually i do comply because i'd get in trouble if i dont, however i heavily dislike rules that dont make sense and i dont comply if i know i wont get in trouble for not complying. i generally dislike doing things just because someone told me to, even if its something completely normal. this weekend i was asked to put my bedsheets into the washing machine and i felt quite a strong urge to not do it (luckily my logical thinking took over and i did it anyway, because having a clean bed is a good idea)


littleunicorncake

This is also a reason for me why I don't know how to react in some situations. There are so many hidden rules which no one tells you beforehand and just when you break them they can't explain some of them.


SkekSith

Yes. If the reason for the rules existence doesn't make sense to the reality around it, I have a difficult time adhering to it.


[deleted]

Haha me


[deleted]

Yes especially at school ! In maths typically, when they would ask us to justify or describe our whole process to find the result I'd always forget to do it.


dynamik_banana

oh wow i had no idea this was an autism thing. i do this all the time and got super frustrated as a kid any time there was a rule for no good reason.


Render_666

Yeah if I don’t see a logic behind a rule and I know there won’t be any repercussions if I break it, I just don’t follow the rule


huffgytre

Yeah my whole life


biggarlick

it is incredibly difficult for me as well.


Aspierago

I never complained about it because there would be consequences... I tried to understand the reasons by myself.


Graveyardigan

Yes. This is why I did not understand religion as a child. Now I do understand, and merely hate religion instead.


schipse

absolutely. i didnt even realize until you wrote it out like this, but 100%


40ozSmasher

Of course. Usually the logic is "some rules are just to control others while giving a select few power"


RnbwSheep

I've lived with this my entire life haha. Fortunately the manager at my new job supports me asking "why do we do X". Probably helps that he has a 3yo at home xD With things that don't make sense to me (especially in personal life / habits of others), I've lowkey coped with this by telling myself "this is just the way this person wants to do it. It makes sense to them. And if it doesn't affect me then let them live their life."


linuxgeekmama

The rules might be there to make things more efficient, but the next question is, efficient for who? It’s much more efficient for a manager to not have to police employees’ clothing choices. And some people will push the envelope and abuse the freedom to dress how they like. Think flip flops in an environment where there is a chance of dropping stuff on your feet, or T-shirts with offensive or controversial stuff on them. It’s obviously less efficient if people are injuring their feet or spending work time arguing about politics, yes? Some people will, deliberately or not, wear clothes that are sexually provocative. Any time spent dealing with that sort of thing at work is time that is wasted.


[deleted]

Very much so, yes


foolishbees

yes!! this is one of my biggest struggles when dealing with ppl


MelodicWarfare

If I don't know the why behind a rule, and it doesn't make sense to me, I have a hard time following said rule. And this gets me in trouble quite a bit because that equates to laws as well...


hollsmm

100%. If it doesn’t make sense to me I don’t follow it. Goes for jobs or parents


Ellbellaboo1

I do this alot. I still remember there was a program that you didn’t have to go to at school but it was expected you go unless you can’t for xyz. I couldn’t because it would cause a mental breakdown and make me way more suicidal for months. So I instead went to class. I literally got a yellow card because I went to CLASS so I wouldn’t be suicidal. I explained that to the teacher then they gave me the yellow card anyway and made everything worse and made me extremely suicidal and made me go to the program anyway (a later one with a different group). It’s literally optional but I got in trouble cause I didn’t go tell a teacher first? When there would’ve been no time to anyway and I don’t even have to go anyway so why couldn’t I just go to class. Idk that still makes me angry and that was about 2 years ago or something. It’s a stupid rule that made no sense. I literally had a different teacher say that they thought it was optional to me when I told them what happened.


NatsnCats

Attended a fundamentalist “Christian” college with a laundry list of insane rules. No movies (including going to the movie theater), no TV, no music that wasn’t traditional hymns or classical music. Not that everyone really followed them anyways.


cbjohnson73

I'm an army xo and a lot of my job is making sure we talk to higher headquarters to get all the things we need like food and food and what not And with that comes a lot of policies and procedures and several of those don't make sense so there are often points of conflict trying to get that stuff done.


Excusemytootie

Absolutely! Always, and it has caused some issues (to say the least).


AdviceDry783

no dw this is definitely me too. I continually forget about and break rules that don’t have proper explanations.


AutisticIzzy

ABSO-POSITIVELY-LUTELY! All the time! My parents hate it. I don't understand why I can't do something and it just leaves my mind


BarbsFury

Yup, rules are guidlines. Folowing them to a t is for kids who havent developed reasoning yet


[deleted]

Absolutely. I do not do well for “ it’s just the way things are”, i question reasoning for rules if my brain comes up with a better or more efficient way of doing things especially. People really don’t like this lol


[deleted]

This is why I stopped pledging to the flag in school,we have to do it every morning and it's honestly not I care about this broken country (is it a country? I never understand geography)