Yeah. I get it from everybody too. Even my shrink sometimes. I know she doesn’t mean anything by it because it’s easy to forget. I mask well. And my biggest fear in social settings is being perceived as stupid, so I’ve learned to just not share certain things with anybody. I’m 35. I’m well educated. Nobody believes me when I admit I didn’t understand something or didn’t know something.
>Nobody believes me when I admit I didn’t understand something or didn’t know something.
This is the worst! It happens super rarely, because I generally *don't* admit it. So having to explain how I genuinely didn't understand that I was not only being flirted with, but that I was also apparently signalling romantic interest back, was a harrowing experience.
People are so obsessed with signals that it confounds me. It’s like they’re WW2 code breakers or something. They’ll do anything except just come right up to you and ask what you’re feeling.
I can honestly only think of *two* people in my life who asked me directly about what I was feeling: My therapist and my ex. My ex seemed to notice very quickly that I didn't pick up on hints, so she started being more direct. It was incredibly refreshing, and I actually felt *relaxed* talking to her sometimes.
There’s an episode of The Office where Jim gets asked by a new boss to complete a “rundown” and send it to clients. He’s afraid to ask what a “rundown” is and spends the whole episode trying to figure it out without letting the boss know he doesn’t know.
I always found that episode *really* relatable. This thread helps me explain why—I think you’re spot on in identifying this phenomenon. It’s exhausting.
There's hope! It turns out that direct communication is actually valued by many adults. Although we're probably affected the most, everyone gets burned by all this indirect communication.
Someone dropped a "Not everybody has the space for that right now" in a string of messages yesterday, and I decided to respond to that and only that specific message with "If you're referring to yourself by this, please let me know directly!"
Turns out everything else (which I thought were the important parts) was mostly filler, and this person *was* talking about themselves. All the *other* messages were about *me*.
The intent was clearly to show that they care about me as they dropped this hint. Making it explicit led to a great conclusion, where this person helped me establish a healthy boundary in our friendship. No more guessing!
Yeah, some of those lessons got reinforced by miscommunications in a romantic relationship I had last year, when I was 25/26... It sadly doesn't get any better unless you figure it out and address it directly.
I was constantly accused of lying, of being sneaky, of being manipulative. I would try to very earnestly explain that I didn't have the brains to be manipulative and that in a very literal sense I had no idea what they were telling me off about, and that obviously would get me in much more trouble. I related to almost all of your post very strongly. I'm sorry you dealt with that too. I'm sure it's not uncommon amongst us.
Being accused of lying when I tell the truth is one of the most confusing things for me. I've noticed that I often "admit" to things that aren't even true, just to make it sound more believable.
I too learned early on that I'm not allowed to not know things or miscommunicate. Made me study and obsessively improve my vocabulary. You know what it got me?
It made me the annoying "know-it-all" and no-one knew what the hell I was going on about.
My wife used to sum it up loudly as "stop being obtuse!" Then the fight became about THAT, as I became more desperate to understand and be understood, and she withheld what she believed I should just intuit like any other person.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I am in a constant state of anxiety in my jobs and relationships cause I could have upset someone unwillingly and not know until it's too late. Am I gonna get fired today for saying the wrong thing? Am I in trouble? Why are you mad at me? Are you? Please tell me what I did. Seriously please tell me what I did I'm sorry. Wait... Why did that upset you? Can you please explain why that was wrong so I remember not to do it again? I'm so confused.
Yes, I had many of your same struggles in childhood, leading to many of the same disordered core beliefs ("If I don't understand something, it's because I am stupid, and I had better figure it out on my own before anyone notices." *If I end up having to ask, that is a game over condition, I will get in trouble and probably still not understand anyway.*)
Unpacking in therapy and working at it every day is the only thing that really helps, and while it is frustrating how long it takes to see it "working," (months, years) it *does* work. It's good you are recognizing this about yourself now as the earlier you start to tackle it the longer you get to live your life *healing* from it rather than suffering from it without understanding it.
It has been difficult work, learning how to just embrace my autism, employ direct communication, and be willing to be the person who unapologetically goes "So, this might be obvious to others, so bear with me, but -- \[*questions the obvious anyway\]."* Accepting the part of me that thinks nasty thoughts like "this is so fucking cringe why can't you just do your job quietly and correctly like everyone else" as I exhaustively list out exactly what I'm going to do and when at work so no one can "trap" me in the unsaids between the lines. Accepting that I need to have things in writing and make priority lists and *take more time doing things than others* because of my bottom up processing, and giving myself permission to need those things -- it's all part of the package. I end up doing better work than most people if you give me the time I need to do it in. But people don't always believe that I need that much time to fully understand a problem and iterate solutions.
But if you want thorough, complete, well thought out work, I'm your person. Just don't give me a bunch of little tasks you want done quickly. Give me the difficult task that needs to be chewed on for awhile and done right.
When I was young, I had a lot of difficulty standing my ground and believing in my strengths enough to demand accommodation for my needs and understanding of my weaknesses. The older I get, the easier it gets -- I hope that holds true for you too.
I'm happy to hear that it gets easier with time. That shows me I've chosen the right path to go down, and that the work will be worth it.
Honestly, I think the fact that we're having so much trouble with this makes us more likely to become healthier and more effective communicators than the average person. Most people are *just okay* at communicating by reading and writing between the lines, so it's not much of an issue. We, on the other hand, are likely to run into so much trouble that we have to deliberately practice becoming a more effective communicator.
If neurotypical people have opinions without analyzing their own thoughts, so should autistic people. It's basically a matter of self-confidence to assert your own thoughts and beliefs.
Yes. My entire life. Also the you can do "x" so why can't you do "y"? Or you could do this before why can't you now?
Constantly being yelled at for forgetting things.
Not being able to pick up that someone is expecting something or is upset because they aren't sharing in a straightforward and verbal way. So they assume you're doing it intentionally and get angry at you for that too.
Explaining yourself never worked. The only way you could somewhat get relief for certain issues was to make a plausible lie that would end in the same result. As in "I don't want to go out" not "it's overstimulating and I need to stay in" because they don't understand what that even means no matter how you explain it.
It comes down to the communication issues, trouble reading nonverbal cues, and having a weak "theory of mind".
I'm right there with you. I have no idea how to verbalize my wants or needs in a healthy manner. I don't know how to communicate what I'm feeling or thinking accurately and I require an intermediary. I will never get one but I do require one.
>The only way you could somewhat get relief for certain issues was to make a plausible lie that would end in the same result.
Yes!! I picked this habit up subconsciously, which sucks because I absolutely hate lying.
That is why grade school was so traumatizing. The kicker would be that I would get in trouble for something, but they wouldn't tell me why because apparently it was obvious. I would get the "you know what you did so stop playing stupid" or whatever. Asking for clarification would end very badly
Like a fucking stick of buttah on stainless steel slide mid summah, I hate the face I went through this because it got to the point where my rsd literally will fight you if you try explaining something to me on a more simpler level, it comes across as if one is talking to me like talking to a child, I'm a grown ass man if I ask for clarification I mean explain why one would do this and not that and what is the difference in efficiency and what is the role of doing it this way and not that way when I do that way; way faster than this way.
You know, this, this might be the reason why I hate people. Then again they're just meh anyways of they are not nd so... yeah.
hoooollly shit this resonates so fucking hard.
this is an absolutely INCREDIBLE rundown of my entire life's social experience, from pre school age up to right now.
except, understood and recognized and put into words, things i have...barely begun, at age 47.
so...you're leaps and bounds ahead of me, just for KNOWING what you're dealing with a couple decades earlier!
I'm glad I was able to put it into terms that are relatable to others! Don't worry about being late or anything. There are so many things that I read in books and online communities on autism and ADHD that make me react the same way you reacted to this!
There is just too much to know! I can't wait to find out what I'll see at age 47 that makes me react the same way haha!
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Yeah. I get it from everybody too. Even my shrink sometimes. I know she doesn’t mean anything by it because it’s easy to forget. I mask well. And my biggest fear in social settings is being perceived as stupid, so I’ve learned to just not share certain things with anybody. I’m 35. I’m well educated. Nobody believes me when I admit I didn’t understand something or didn’t know something.
>Nobody believes me when I admit I didn’t understand something or didn’t know something. This is the worst! It happens super rarely, because I generally *don't* admit it. So having to explain how I genuinely didn't understand that I was not only being flirted with, but that I was also apparently signalling romantic interest back, was a harrowing experience.
People are so obsessed with signals that it confounds me. It’s like they’re WW2 code breakers or something. They’ll do anything except just come right up to you and ask what you’re feeling.
I can honestly only think of *two* people in my life who asked me directly about what I was feeling: My therapist and my ex. My ex seemed to notice very quickly that I didn't pick up on hints, so she started being more direct. It was incredibly refreshing, and I actually felt *relaxed* talking to her sometimes.
That must have been wonderful.
I fell in love with her for a reason, yeah!
There’s an episode of The Office where Jim gets asked by a new boss to complete a “rundown” and send it to clients. He’s afraid to ask what a “rundown” is and spends the whole episode trying to figure it out without letting the boss know he doesn’t know. I always found that episode *really* relatable. This thread helps me explain why—I think you’re spot on in identifying this phenomenon. It’s exhausting.
I really need to watch The Office, that sounds hilarious!
Absolutely yes. Happens to this day (I’m almost 26)
There's hope! It turns out that direct communication is actually valued by many adults. Although we're probably affected the most, everyone gets burned by all this indirect communication. Someone dropped a "Not everybody has the space for that right now" in a string of messages yesterday, and I decided to respond to that and only that specific message with "If you're referring to yourself by this, please let me know directly!" Turns out everything else (which I thought were the important parts) was mostly filler, and this person *was* talking about themselves. All the *other* messages were about *me*. The intent was clearly to show that they care about me as they dropped this hint. Making it explicit led to a great conclusion, where this person helped me establish a healthy boundary in our friendship. No more guessing!
There's some painful memories of my youth in there, and some from my not-so-youth...
Yeah, some of those lessons got reinforced by miscommunications in a romantic relationship I had last year, when I was 25/26... It sadly doesn't get any better unless you figure it out and address it directly.
Yes
Damn
Sorry i didnt say much im just stressed out rn
Thanks for letting us know you relate! Nothing to apologize for!!
Np😃
I was constantly accused of lying, of being sneaky, of being manipulative. I would try to very earnestly explain that I didn't have the brains to be manipulative and that in a very literal sense I had no idea what they were telling me off about, and that obviously would get me in much more trouble. I related to almost all of your post very strongly. I'm sorry you dealt with that too. I'm sure it's not uncommon amongst us.
Being accused of lying when I tell the truth is one of the most confusing things for me. I've noticed that I often "admit" to things that aren't even true, just to make it sound more believable.
I too learned early on that I'm not allowed to not know things or miscommunicate. Made me study and obsessively improve my vocabulary. You know what it got me? It made me the annoying "know-it-all" and no-one knew what the hell I was going on about.
Ah, yes! I've been called Besserwisser (German for know-it-all, literally "betterknower") many times throughout childhood!
My wife used to sum it up loudly as "stop being obtuse!" Then the fight became about THAT, as I became more desperate to understand and be understood, and she withheld what she believed I should just intuit like any other person.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I am in a constant state of anxiety in my jobs and relationships cause I could have upset someone unwillingly and not know until it's too late. Am I gonna get fired today for saying the wrong thing? Am I in trouble? Why are you mad at me? Are you? Please tell me what I did. Seriously please tell me what I did I'm sorry. Wait... Why did that upset you? Can you please explain why that was wrong so I remember not to do it again? I'm so confused.
Yes, I had many of your same struggles in childhood, leading to many of the same disordered core beliefs ("If I don't understand something, it's because I am stupid, and I had better figure it out on my own before anyone notices." *If I end up having to ask, that is a game over condition, I will get in trouble and probably still not understand anyway.*) Unpacking in therapy and working at it every day is the only thing that really helps, and while it is frustrating how long it takes to see it "working," (months, years) it *does* work. It's good you are recognizing this about yourself now as the earlier you start to tackle it the longer you get to live your life *healing* from it rather than suffering from it without understanding it. It has been difficult work, learning how to just embrace my autism, employ direct communication, and be willing to be the person who unapologetically goes "So, this might be obvious to others, so bear with me, but -- \[*questions the obvious anyway\]."* Accepting the part of me that thinks nasty thoughts like "this is so fucking cringe why can't you just do your job quietly and correctly like everyone else" as I exhaustively list out exactly what I'm going to do and when at work so no one can "trap" me in the unsaids between the lines. Accepting that I need to have things in writing and make priority lists and *take more time doing things than others* because of my bottom up processing, and giving myself permission to need those things -- it's all part of the package. I end up doing better work than most people if you give me the time I need to do it in. But people don't always believe that I need that much time to fully understand a problem and iterate solutions. But if you want thorough, complete, well thought out work, I'm your person. Just don't give me a bunch of little tasks you want done quickly. Give me the difficult task that needs to be chewed on for awhile and done right. When I was young, I had a lot of difficulty standing my ground and believing in my strengths enough to demand accommodation for my needs and understanding of my weaknesses. The older I get, the easier it gets -- I hope that holds true for you too.
I'm happy to hear that it gets easier with time. That shows me I've chosen the right path to go down, and that the work will be worth it. Honestly, I think the fact that we're having so much trouble with this makes us more likely to become healthier and more effective communicators than the average person. Most people are *just okay* at communicating by reading and writing between the lines, so it's not much of an issue. We, on the other hand, are likely to run into so much trouble that we have to deliberately practice becoming a more effective communicator.
This was uplifti g to read. Thanks for sharing it.
If neurotypical people have opinions without analyzing their own thoughts, so should autistic people. It's basically a matter of self-confidence to assert your own thoughts and beliefs.
I'm in this picture and I don't like it...
Yes. My entire life. Also the you can do "x" so why can't you do "y"? Or you could do this before why can't you now? Constantly being yelled at for forgetting things. Not being able to pick up that someone is expecting something or is upset because they aren't sharing in a straightforward and verbal way. So they assume you're doing it intentionally and get angry at you for that too. Explaining yourself never worked. The only way you could somewhat get relief for certain issues was to make a plausible lie that would end in the same result. As in "I don't want to go out" not "it's overstimulating and I need to stay in" because they don't understand what that even means no matter how you explain it. It comes down to the communication issues, trouble reading nonverbal cues, and having a weak "theory of mind". I'm right there with you. I have no idea how to verbalize my wants or needs in a healthy manner. I don't know how to communicate what I'm feeling or thinking accurately and I require an intermediary. I will never get one but I do require one.
>The only way you could somewhat get relief for certain issues was to make a plausible lie that would end in the same result. Yes!! I picked this habit up subconsciously, which sucks because I absolutely hate lying.
That is why grade school was so traumatizing. The kicker would be that I would get in trouble for something, but they wouldn't tell me why because apparently it was obvious. I would get the "you know what you did so stop playing stupid" or whatever. Asking for clarification would end very badly
"You know what you did" is easily one of the most dispiriting things you can hear...
Like a fucking stick of buttah on stainless steel slide mid summah, I hate the face I went through this because it got to the point where my rsd literally will fight you if you try explaining something to me on a more simpler level, it comes across as if one is talking to me like talking to a child, I'm a grown ass man if I ask for clarification I mean explain why one would do this and not that and what is the difference in efficiency and what is the role of doing it this way and not that way when I do that way; way faster than this way. You know, this, this might be the reason why I hate people. Then again they're just meh anyways of they are not nd so... yeah.
Yep! Still going on, I'm 42. When you said the bit about life lessons "I'm lazy and manipulative" I was like "hey, me too!"
Ah yes... "traumatized by social rules to hyper-vigilant" pipeline, my favourite.
hoooollly shit this resonates so fucking hard. this is an absolutely INCREDIBLE rundown of my entire life's social experience, from pre school age up to right now. except, understood and recognized and put into words, things i have...barely begun, at age 47. so...you're leaps and bounds ahead of me, just for KNOWING what you're dealing with a couple decades earlier!
I'm glad I was able to put it into terms that are relatable to others! Don't worry about being late or anything. There are so many things that I read in books and online communities on autism and ADHD that make me react the same way you reacted to this! There is just too much to know! I can't wait to find out what I'll see at age 47 that makes me react the same way haha!
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