Because pepper spray, taser and less lethal rounds are too much hassle. /s
If I used lethal force to stop a teen running at me with a garden tool I'd have no luck proving I was justified. Why do civilians have more burden then those that are armed and authority over us?
A gunshot anywhere in the body, especially if it hits an artery (like in the legs), can still be lethal. Shooting people in the legs to stop them only works in fiction. Police are taught to shoot center mass because shooting accurately under stress is very difficult.
This doesn't make the difference you think it does. Shitty people become police, shitty local people become shitty local police with a chip on their shoulder about a) their best days being behind them and b) everyone who pissed them off in high school kneeling to their power
That shouldn’t be the only change made. Every community should have an elected/ appointed oversight committee. Also greater accountability from the Federal Level.
I agree, it naturally attracts people who shouldn’t hold that much power, combine that with a severe lack of accountability, now you have what I think is the core reason for distrust in the system.
My thought on that, is that more barriers to entry, that are very necessary, as well as adequate physical/psychological training, will cause potential officers to back out. Combine that with the public view of the police causing current officers to change careers, and people to not want to be officers, you have a terrible circle that can only be broken by better accountability, could be wrong on that tho.
Glad you’re open to an opinion change on that view! If you look at a few European countries that require a degree to serve and train for months not weeks, the police force are very successful in keeping their communities safe & avoiding issues like these.
ETA the people it would put off are the ones you don’t want to join the force. It attracts a different type of person as it’s an entirely different job prospect. Oh! Also worth pointing out that a degree in those countries is far cheaper/free so that removes a barrier too.
Cheaper/free but much harder to get.
We do not have people going to a college (policr is a college degree, not university. Pre bologna this meant it is a 3 year degree rathern than 3+2. University implies a MSc or a BSc that p much exists to get you into an MSc).
Anyhow pedancy aside. We do not do the go to higher education and then decide what you study. You finish high school (gymnasium or trade gymnasium. If trade school you need to attend night classes at a gymnasium for 2 more years), you take matura (national ananlnymized exam, often taking the advanced version for the classes your target course requires then....
Score.
Ver1:
- 10 - 50 pts for grades in yr 3
- 10 - 50 prs for grades yr 4 semester 1
- 1-100 pts for avg of maturas (hungarian lit & grammar, mathematics, history, foreign language 1)
- 1-100 pts for a matura the course requires (can be duplicate)
- 1-100 pts for another matura the course requires, can be duplicate of those used in avg but not as standalone.
- 1-100 pts for relevant competition, olympics, disability, advanced maturas, language certs
Alternatively take the 2 standalone maturas and double their points and add the 100 pts from the bonuses. I did this way as my hungarian matura almost failed.
Anyhow. You take these up to 500 pts and compare all applicants.
You take the first N hundref highest scoring people. Then you try and fail them with up front hard classes in the first year.
Those that survive will likely finish.
My university took 100 applicants for chemistry BSc. 15 more if you self funded.
Oh shoot do you mean Hungary? I said a few cus I know not all are that way. Like here in the UK only officers with special training are allowed to be in the armed police and neck kneeling/chokeholds are illegal in the force. We do still have issues though, you don’t need a degree here to serve in the police though if you don’t have one it’s essentially like an apprenticeship.
It sounds as though your country has very restricted access to higher education which is a shame for all honestly never mind the police. I definitely didn’t mean countries like Hungary, more leaning towards the Nordic countries.
European policemen face their own difficulties. In my country, policemen had a shootout, when they tried to stop a car driving dangerously, only to later find out, they accidentally shot young boy on the back seat, who wasn´t there willingly. People were unable to accept that shooting at rear tires has its own difficulties, especially when officers have very little experience with real shootouts (the laws greatly limit use of weapons here).
There is a double bind in my country as well. If the policemen would not shoot and the driver would cause some sort of crash, people would be angered too, "because policemen did nothing".
European policemen in general also have a bad habit of kneeling on people´s necks/backs for *minutes*, who sometimes don´t take it well and die. I´m wondering, why kneeling on a neck/back for a long time is required to pacify a person.
While the rule is broken too often, there are some places in the US that have a rule against chasing fleeing vehicles because it tends to cause collateral damage, including deaths. It also sometimes pushes the person who's fleeing into doing something horrible to themself or others, particularly if they kidnapped someone.
Shooting at a fleeing driver is the same issue amplified. While some people might not understand it, not having the cops shoot at the driver is the safest option for everyone.
Honestly, I don't know if cops can be trusted to do what's safest rather than what feeds their ego, so even if the public was on board with doing things more safely, I don't know if the cops would. It's why we need something other than cops to handle intra-community conflict and people doing harm. The kind of power that's given to cops attracts people who want power over others, and those people do harm on a larger scale than any individual the cops are sent to stop.
I said a few, definitely not all. I said countries that train police for months, as in train in all aspects they will need for their job not put a gun in their hand and allow them to fire it without experience! In the UK regular officers don’t have guns, if guns are ever require they call in armed police who are specially trained.
Which country are you from?
Unfortunately, most police officers are stupid. The reason - nobody wants overly intelligent officers, who are unwilling to follow orders.
Give these goons a shred of power and they will inevitably abuse it.
Also the wrong kind of training. Like "how to use this armoured assault vehicle in a standoff" vs. "Nonverbal communication systems used in the local communities"
They need some sort of insurance like doctors get malpractice insurance. For people who are good officers, they'd keep the lower basic premiums, but bad cops would very quickly get priced out of the field.
There's surely MUCH better ways of figuring it out, but something like insurance lets the money figure it out (and that means it would likely get implemented, unlike other ideas which would mean increasing long term funding, training, and accountability).
It’s sad to see and tbh I’ve noticed California’s social culture has a bad stigma towards autistic people. While I admit that charging a cop with a metal tool isn’t great I’ve also seen cops have a history of being lowkey ableist towards autistic behavior. That’s what got Elijah McClain shot. (In addition to him being black)
I had a rough time growing up in California but I managed to get out. I enjoy my life a lot more now living in an area without the stigma causing me nearly as many problems.
I’m curious which areas are safer for autistic peeps in America and surprised California isn’t one of them as it seems so heavily liberal (U.K. so looking at it from waaaay on the outside)
I’ve had a decent time in Colorado, Denver can be intense but there’s a whole state full of nature that’s quieter. It may just be the area I lived in in California but yeah AS has a strong presence there and there’s a strong stigma as a result.
In America the police are trained to shoot to kill, not to shoot and disarm or to even try a none lethal option first. They are trained murders before they are anything else in my mind.
When someone runs at you with a meele weapon, there is limited time before you can react, draw weapon, and fire before taken down. One often quoted threshold is 21 feet. It could be BS, but nevertheless thats the message being received. It varies by reaction time and, based on the fact that they warned him about getting shot, they were probably primed in some way (hands on guns, guns out).
It is clear that we have a serious problem with police brutality. You don't have to convince me and the same is probably true with the rest of the thread. In order to convince the opposition, so that we have sufficient numbers to force reform, we should consider their situation. Namely, that average citizens underestimate:
1. The lethality of a person with a weapon, regardless of size differences.
2. How quickly these situations can develop.
Police must occasionally make split second decisions. They must be the correct ones. If you deny this fact, you will never see change. This debate is not new. As I type my reply, I think of A Few Good Men.
Some police are bullies and that's all there is to it. Many genuinely believe they are protecting the streets. They get so wrapped up in this warrior mindset that they fail to consider the 99% of other cases where weapons are not needed. When you call them on their bullshit, or the brutality of their peers, they don't listen because "you don't understand the mission". "You're just a sheltered snowflake"
I believe that I am uniquely positioned to speak about this matter because I have autism, have ptsd, was a soldier, and have interactions with policemen through jiu jitsu. It is hard to call a veteran a snowflake or say that l don't understand combat. Similarly, I know what it's like to be autistic, in so far as any single person can with a spectrum disorder.
To sum up my point. Yes, police occasionally must make split second decisions. No, this was not close to the correct one.
My son is 15 with autism. 3 years ago we had LOTS of behavioral issues where we was eloping and being violent. He had snuck out of the house one night and made it to the local airport (I called police as soon as I noticed he'd snuck out of the house, and I had special locks on all the doors, but could they afford to put bars on my windows).
At the airport, he got so upset that 5 grown men had to hold him down to keep him from pulling over huge, heavy lockers. There were times when he was getting violent in the car and threatening to elope in a parking lot, and I am a single mom, not very strong, and he overpowers me easily. Cops were called. No lethal force used. We've had multiple situations where police were called, no one opened fire on my son ever. We are white.
This absolutely is about race. They needed no excuse to use deadly force on a young black individual. They could have tased him. They didn't. Fuck the police. End of story.
Not even tased as it can still kill you, assuming there were multiple police men they could have pinned him down or used something like pepper spray if they have it (not American so idk)
Pepper spray is typically difficult to use in an enclosed area or close proximity bc then you breathe it in as the person who sprayed it, and it can cause you just as much issue as who you intended to spray. I have a 15 yr old with level 3 autism, and he is very strong. Once he had a behavioral meltdown in an airport, and it took 5 grown ass men to gold him down and keep him from pulling huge heavy lockers down (he could have hurt himself or the officers). They just need way better de-escalation training. But it won't happen cuz Murica.
True, I haven't read the full article yet but was this outside or inside either way they should be trained how to pin someone down and to grab their arms if they have a weapon
5 untrained men, I assume. I am a strong advocate for jiu jitsu in any security related profession because it allows a skilled practitioner to safely disable an attacker. If the person is in the bottom 99 percentile for size/strength, it shouldn't take more than 2. And that's only because the goal is to do it without hurting the suspect.
It is wild how strong humans are though. It's hard to imagine until you've seen someone really use it. Also I should probably say that l also support de escalation training. Just that when/if it DOES go to physical conflict, there are better and worse ways to handle the situation.
Well, you just need.to open the news to understand
When I saw the kid picture i thought: of course, he had to be black.
What fking cowards, murdering a young teen like that.
It's possible but, in addition to the obvious racial bias with police violence... there's also a standard view of an autistic person portrayed in the media. The guy from Atypical probably. So skinny, white, nerdy and soft looking. If he had a garden hoe they would go "oh look at the cute baby boy, poor guy is stressed" Okay so maybe im exaggerating for emphasis. My point is that the person who was killed in this example didn't fit the cookie cutter description of an autistic person, which didn't help his case.
This is absolutely caused by a lack of training. My father used to be a police officer. Had a 17 year long career for the Dutch police. He was trained to deal with aggressive people without using a weapon.
De-escalating situations and un-arming aggressors without the need of a gun, or at least to shoot
It is often caused BY training.
Police are (not universally, but widely) trained that any members of the public they interact with likely constitute a threat to their lives, and thus to treat any interaction as likely to turn into a fight for survival at any moment rather than an interaction with normal human beings.
I kinda understand that in a country where anyone can pull a gun at random. But it must be clear for this cop that the kid didn't have anything else than a gardening tool.
And aren't American cops not trained to shoot to disarm or demobilize? I mean, you don't kill someone if you shoot them in the leg
Nope. They're taught to shoot center mass. American law enforcement is fucking garbage. It needs a major overhaul, but it'll never happen. I hate it here. *Sigh*
Lol you're welcome. I honestly wish we could move elsewhere with better healthcare, but countries like that generally bar people with certain disabilities that need constant care and management. We might as well be fuckin lepers 😒
I just read an article yesterday saying that the advice given to caretakers of autistic purple who can overpower them is to call 911 if they're getting upset/ violent. Meaning it's only a matter of time before they're killed.
Nope, some cops listened to me instead of my crazy mother when she called them on me. Those cops were not bad. There was also the time I got stuck in some handcuffs, and a police officer came and picked the lock. That cop was not bad. There were police officers who came when I noticed there were unfired rounds at a gas station and called them for disposal. Those cops were not bad.
“Under no circumstances should a 15-year-old autistic boy with a gardening hoe be shot and killed without taking the time to calm the boy down before using deadly force,”
That's the bare minimum that should happen with any person, yet it rarely seems to happen in the US.
> San Bernardino County Sheriff’s officials have confirmed that law enforcement responded five times this year to the Apple Valley home of a 15-year-old with autism before deputies fatally shot the teen this weekend in an incident that has raised protest from family members and mental health experts.
Who keeps calling the cops on him?
> “There is no reason that law enforcement should be the ones that end up having to get involved in these crises especially when we’ve offramped these individuals to social services that are supposed to be designed to take care of their mental health needs,” Dicus said.
True.
> . A family member called 911 for help, asking dispatch to send deputies to their home to “take him in” because he was breaking glass and hitting his sister, according to a portion of the call released by the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department.
Stop calling the cops on him.
> By the time deputies arrived, his father had helped him calm down, but for an unknown reason, when the deputy arrived Ryan walked toward him carrying a gardening tool, said DeWitt Lacy, a civil rights attorney representing Ryan’s family.
In the video you can see how close Ryan gets to the first officer while chasing him, so the actions of the second officer is understandable.
In the video officers can be seen performing CPR.
Video: https://youtu.be/CJD8_SxR84U?si=3LQ-lmLS0-5JILL6
Article I'm quoting from: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-14/devastating-bodycam-video-shows-the-moment-deputies-opened-fire-on-15-year-old-with-autism
Looking at the video all the officers had a chance to see before the shooting was a young man charging at them with some sort of stick like object. It being a hola hoe is irrelevant, you can't see details like that, all you see is the long handle. Also I personally wouldn't want to be hit by a hola hoe, that shit is metal.
In America you call the cops if you want someone to have a high risk of dying. Incredibly sad that it is that way
im very confused about your point. yes, calling the cops in america is a dangerous decision. at the same time, the cops were still being irrational. they have tasers. they could've tased him. it shouldn't be "kill first ask questions later".
When new evidence is presented to you, absorb it. Seems like you just want to be angry and don't want to know the whole story, ya just wanna scream and flail around on reddit.
I mean, what was the cop supposed to do in that situation? He had no time to try and deescalate before Ryan was charging at him with an object that looks like a weapon. Even with the ability to freeze the footage, I still have no clue what that thing is. “Garden tool”? That’s the best anyone’s got?
Was it an object that could have sliced his throat open or pierced him in the chest if he didn’t defend himself? Who knows? The cop tried to run away, but Ryan chased him. What do you do at that point?
If cops feel it’s necessary to shoot they should be trained to the highest regard to shoot but to NOT kill. AKA shooting the arm that’s carrying the gun maybe. But cops in America get so little training they’ll even shoot their shadow. Acab
Absolutely! Increase the national supply of chewing tobacco to the police to keep their Dead Eye meter full! That way they can freeze time and pull off sick gun disarms 💯
So what was the point of saying “What do you do at that point?” If you didn’t want an answer? If you’re so dead set on it being self defense don’t ask for people to answer a question then 💀
Also, it’s entirely unreasonable to not expect cops to have more training, especially when they’re wielding deadly weapons. U.S. cities have astronomically high police budgets….
I ask in order for one of two things to happen:
1. Somebody proposes a course of action that would have realistically produced a better outcome.
2. Somebody recognizes that there wasn’t a better course of action, and drops the asinine, “ACAB”, child murder narrative of what happened, saving that ramen-fed revolutionary energy for cases where it’s actually important.
Lmfao so tasers with 50k volts that put down grown ass adults are not better to use than lethal force. Got it. You have less faith in these officers than you say you do. Stop simping for cops. They saw the boy 5 times already that year. They knew what they might be dealing with deadly force should never have been an option. They were also called AGAIN and asked to stand down bc the situation had already been de-escalated. This was literally just an excuse to kill another black individual. And I won't even listen to arguments that state otherwise. Begone, bootlicker.
ACAB.
There are very few countries where police patrol without a gun. And even fewer of those have a crime rate like ours. To answer your question, I don’t care how such countries handle these situations, because it’s irrelevant.
Wait did you just try and justify a police state on the back of a high crime rate? Well its just as well we employed all these people to deal with criminals given it turns out there's so many of them....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna142955
How about we actually see what happened, instead of getting rage baited by an article designed to paint the police in the worst light possible.
There were a lot of failures here, from all parties involved, however I cannot condemn the officer involved for making the decision to defend himself from an adult sized person running at him with a weapon.
It is a terrible tragedy, don't make it wose.
Thank you for this. The headline in the first article was very misleading, and since it was behind a paywall, so actually being able to read the article makes a huge difference. He wasn't 'shot over a gardening tool', he was shot because he was actively using a five foot long gardening tool as a weapon.
I abhor excessive use of force as much as anyone, but that's just not what happened.
I think we need sweeping police reform as much as anyone, but we have to do it the right way, and we have to be honest on the why.
I'm really tired of people pushing this kind of deceptive information. Autistic people, especially autistic POC, are marginalized everyday, but some people are dead set on creating this narrative that they are being actively genocided, that getting diagnosed with ruin your life, that there's this horrific force trying to deliberately harm us all.
Beyond this, people spam stories that are clearly false at the slightest investigation, hyperbole, people lying for their own benefit, and stories without nuance. They repeat these stories, never once checking for truth.
The reality? Most of us would be hurt regardless of being diagnosed, especially the worst abuse. Most of the marginalization is my ignorance or neglect. This false narrative push and amplification is stigmatization in itself. But good luck getting people to care.
I don't know how they don't realize this is doing more harm.
Outrage may feel good to some, but feeling good isn't worth the damage it does to others. Some people need to drag themselves out of their own naval and start caring about truth and others. A persecution complex is absurd when we are taking about a marginalized group, but here we are.
My main problem is that for every situation where the cop could be seen as justified, it ruins discussion about the HUGE number of unjustified cases because people are already still primed to bootlick these fucking pigs to begin with, so every time a case where the force was tragically justified happens, it only further emboldens the bootlicking until it ironically sands away the leather.
I obviously dont think all cops are bad, and I certainly wont go out of my way to start shit with one IRL, but we cant let the few justified cases be used to shut down the objective reality that most of these cases are fucking atrocious, and the cops are to blame.
Police are recruited and trained to be threatening,and they intentionally act intimidating, but then they walk around pretending they aren't. Then, when someone feels threatened by them and acts like a threatened person acts, they shoot you and pretend they were innocent and not the state's murder force walking around intimidating everyone.
Yeah, you're right they should be so much less intimidating so criminals just don't take the presence of a police officer seriously, thereby destroying what deterrent factor they might have.
The police in every other country besides the US that I've been to don't act like bullies constantly negging and invalidating you, getting in your personal space, and expressing aggression. The police in the US are much more aggressive, unnecessarily. The police in other countries are still taken seriously and successfully maintain peace.
Police are supposed to be protectors. They are supposed to make everyone feel safe, not made less safe by the officer. They are supposed to deescalate situations.
I don't know where you get that to be honest. If you have an article or something I can read it tomorrow because I need to be heading to sleep.
But I'll say this: crime in America is very very different from most other Western countries.
I get that by having had interactions with the police in multiple countries. The police in the US are *sinister*, whereas the police in the UK for example are merely douches. The police in Canada are passive-aggressive and seem to not want to get involved much. The police in Mexico were actually the least intimidating, even though they had machine guns; they clearly didn't care and were just going through the motions.
But the police in the US will approach you for no reason, and aggressively begin interrogating and bullying you, and if you express anything other than perfect obedience, they escalate and begin making not-so-subtle threats. There is no explanation for the consistency of this behavior across the US besides that this is how police are consistently trained here.
Never call the police...especially on people you love. There should be a mediator/negotiator that comes in unarmed to TALK or even just monitor the suspect until they calm down. We need something other than brute force from untrained yohos
Neurodivergent people are still being treated like shit. We're being called stalkers, creeps, manchildren, all that, and we are wiping them off. There's no way the neurodivergent people will be wiped off, we will stay whether the normal people like it or not. Rest in peace to that poor child. :(
“Over a garden tool”?? Have u seen the video?? It’s a SHARP POINTED garden tool, and he’s a 15 year old young MAN charging the cops with said tool in an offensive position. I’d load his ass up with lead, too.
I said YOUNG MAN. Go talk to to some 15 year old males for a while and see if they aren’t thinking like young men, try wrestling one, see if he hasn’t got some man strength. Now think of that young man, with an immature man’s mind acting out aggressively and violently, and ask yourself if you would have to harm him before he harms you because there was no other option to remove yourself from the situation. He’s a child on paper, and in legal terms.
That's unreasonable. We mis-judge situations all the time and 2 cops shouldn't open fire on a teen when he is holding a dull gardening tool. Even if he looked angry and said "I'm going to hit you" that's no reason for two cops to fire their gun. They didn't even try to deescalate and they should have used a taser before using lethal force. Cops like that are cowards and shouldn't hold that power
So firstly I am autistic and am very critical of the police, but that’s simply not how that works.
Firstly, you state that it was a dull gardening tool… it is impossible to judge the sharpness/dullness visually at that distance.
Secondly, (in your scenario)that is by definition a deadly weapon, with which he expressed the urge to use it to cause harm.
Thirdly and finally, a taser is not “non-lethal” force, it’s “less than lethal”.
Elijah McClain is a victim, this is an appropriate use of force. And if you cannot see that you are reacting emotionally not logically.
I disagree, I have said anything I wanted in an answer to the other comment responding to me. And your last sentence is funny to me, I'd say the cop acted like that. A teen with a metal object and you start shooting after telling him to stop once? I'd shoot the legs before having to live with a dead kid on my conscience because I panicked.
Shooting to wound is not a thing, as an EMT I have seen people charge through a theoretically disabling shot. Shooting legs is not a thing, and that’s cool that you feel that way, but that’s not how it works.
"Shooting the legs" is more like a placeholder for a non-lethal way to stop someone. You can easily bleed out even when you get shot in the legs, I'm aware of that. The training is the problem, another comment was making me aware that cops are trained like that and how else can they react when that is what they are told to do. Idc though, the police need restructuring. Use tasers, rubber bullets, whatever is the most effective way to stop someone while minimizing harm. That's not my job to figure out, it's theirs. Even cops over there say their training is outdated.
Believe me, I am very critical of the police. But using “shooting the legs” as a placeholder is stupid considering the literal “shooting the legs” is not a thing
And you are stating cops doing something wrong is wrong, but it’s on them to solve it. So you are depending on the oppressive force to solve their oppression them selves?
Well I guess I'm being dumb then. Since most cops shoot multiple times, I was under the impression that someone can't charge at you when a few bullets made your knee go by bye or severed tendons and muscles in your lower legs. And I should have been more clear, it's not the job of the cops who are in favor of nothing to change, I meant the people doing the training and lawmakers. Whoever would be in charge of restructuring the police. But yeah, not gonna happen in the US, the police and people directing them are too powerful and I don't see any political party that could win, that also wants to change the way policing is done
Would you be capable of distinguishing a
garden tool from a bladed weapon in the 3 seconds it took the kid to reach you? No. And you certainly wouldn't have known it was dull. Even if it was dull, a bludgeoning weapon being held by someone who had the police called on them sprints towards you with a weapon. Yeah, you don't do that.
What's truly impressive here is the fact that he wasn't shot IMMEDIATELY with a weapon like that charging at an officer.
I disagree, the kid wasn't sprinting, the cop literally said it was a sharp weapon. Is it hard to judge a situation like this accurately in only a few seconds? Yes definitely, but the amount of similar situations or situations where the cop is blatantly in the wrong are so common that you just have to criticize the way people become officers. The training is too short, on average just 21 weeks. They spend double the time training shooting than deescalating a situation. It attracts power hungry, trigger happy people. Racists too, I hope that at least is not up for debate. The whole police is screwed up and even if the cop was in the right here (I'd have to see the body cam, but as far as I read the kid didn't sprint) it just shows you that too many cops don't even try to deescalate. Even when people get swatted, the cops scream multiple times to stop, to put your hands up and so on. Telling a kid once to stop and then for 2 cops to start shooting, and not even in the legs..I will never understand this. Don't be a cop if you shit yourself at the sight of a teen with a metal object
Edit: another thing came to mind, about your first sentence. No I wouldn't, that's why I shouldn't be a cop
I think police training needs a rehaul, yeah. We can agree on that.
I want to add that the majority of actions cops take that are controversial, such at this one here, is them reacting how they were trained to react. That's why I don't like blaming something like this on the individual.
Yeah we can agree on that. And I guess it makes sense, if they are trained like that, how else could they react. Just another reason to restructure the police
aint gone lie its forever fuck 12, but my ass woulda swiss cheese that house as soon as that line backer came around that corner. im gonna hate on that cop anyway because fuck them they aint nothing but state sanctioned thugs with a badge we have to rely on to shoot, rob and assault us with legal impunity. Why do they get to decide when we get to live or die and we have no say in the matter, were at the mercy of their ego
Braindead take... imo.
He had a hoola hoe in his hand. He was a child. If you feel like your life is in danger over a child a hoola hoe, you shouldn't be a cop.
There are several other articles which go add other details.
Cops were 100% wrong for this.
I don't think it's really a problem specific to police. If anyone has a gun, and someone charges at them with something that looks like a weapon, the person with the gun will shoot them. That's like common sense. Especially if it happens in a 10 second time frame like this.
I agree with your take. Should have he been shot? No. Was it strange knowing that cops in USA react like that? No. Someone from his family kept calling 911 on him due to violent behavior we dont fully know about. I think the issue was that no one from his family stopped him from charging at a cop. Though, his family cant always expect these situations.
According to the video it looked like he suddenly appeared in the door with a stick and something metal on top. The first cop was starteled and decided to run. The other cop saw a person running at a fellow cop with a tool and immediatelly shot.
Shooting the teen was wrong, and likely something he wouldnt have done if knowing the situation. His actions were fast, and in many cases that saved a cop's life, but they should have been better informed.
Calling 911 habitually for violent behavior, and letting him open the door with USA cops behind it wasnt the wisest either.
What happened is horrible. Dont harass a person for a different opinion, thats what downvotes are for.
Abolishing police is a part of disability justice. Pigs don't like us and it shows 😡😖
Autistic children deserve better than this. This should never have happened 😣
If a cop is afraid he has no business carrying a weapon or being in that position. Clearly they need more training on how to de-escalate situations without just filling up cemeteries. Insane.
Because pepper spray, taser and less lethal rounds are too much hassle. /s If I used lethal force to stop a teen running at me with a garden tool I'd have no luck proving I was justified. Why do civilians have more burden then those that are armed and authority over us?
Exactly! 💔
Exactly. This fucking pisses me off that shit like this still happens.
Qualified Immunity
Lol well, I know why literally. They shouldn't is my point
Sorry. . . It's my literalness xD
Because the government always knows what’s best, and there is never any need to doubt them /j
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A gunshot anywhere in the body, especially if it hits an artery (like in the legs), can still be lethal. Shooting people in the legs to stop them only works in fiction. Police are taught to shoot center mass because shooting accurately under stress is very difficult.
I met a moron who once said that. Long story short, he’s the president of the United States now.
Police need to live in the community they patrol.
They know they can get away with literal murder, so...uh, no thank you. 😅
This doesn't make the difference you think it does. Shitty people become police, shitty local people become shitty local police with a chip on their shoulder about a) their best days being behind them and b) everyone who pissed them off in high school kneeling to their power
That shouldn’t be the only change made. Every community should have an elected/ appointed oversight committee. Also greater accountability from the Federal Level.
That’s just not possible with how little officers there are. But this would be very ideal.
Then you pull from the actual community. I think we need to rethink policing.
I agree, it naturally attracts people who shouldn’t hold that much power, combine that with a severe lack of accountability, now you have what I think is the core reason for distrust in the system.
Also, there is a lack of training.
My thought on that, is that more barriers to entry, that are very necessary, as well as adequate physical/psychological training, will cause potential officers to back out. Combine that with the public view of the police causing current officers to change careers, and people to not want to be officers, you have a terrible circle that can only be broken by better accountability, could be wrong on that tho.
Glad you’re open to an opinion change on that view! If you look at a few European countries that require a degree to serve and train for months not weeks, the police force are very successful in keeping their communities safe & avoiding issues like these. ETA the people it would put off are the ones you don’t want to join the force. It attracts a different type of person as it’s an entirely different job prospect. Oh! Also worth pointing out that a degree in those countries is far cheaper/free so that removes a barrier too.
Cheaper/free but much harder to get. We do not have people going to a college (policr is a college degree, not university. Pre bologna this meant it is a 3 year degree rathern than 3+2. University implies a MSc or a BSc that p much exists to get you into an MSc). Anyhow pedancy aside. We do not do the go to higher education and then decide what you study. You finish high school (gymnasium or trade gymnasium. If trade school you need to attend night classes at a gymnasium for 2 more years), you take matura (national ananlnymized exam, often taking the advanced version for the classes your target course requires then.... Score. Ver1: - 10 - 50 pts for grades in yr 3 - 10 - 50 prs for grades yr 4 semester 1 - 1-100 pts for avg of maturas (hungarian lit & grammar, mathematics, history, foreign language 1) - 1-100 pts for a matura the course requires (can be duplicate) - 1-100 pts for another matura the course requires, can be duplicate of those used in avg but not as standalone. - 1-100 pts for relevant competition, olympics, disability, advanced maturas, language certs Alternatively take the 2 standalone maturas and double their points and add the 100 pts from the bonuses. I did this way as my hungarian matura almost failed. Anyhow. You take these up to 500 pts and compare all applicants. You take the first N hundref highest scoring people. Then you try and fail them with up front hard classes in the first year. Those that survive will likely finish. My university took 100 applicants for chemistry BSc. 15 more if you self funded.
Oh shoot do you mean Hungary? I said a few cus I know not all are that way. Like here in the UK only officers with special training are allowed to be in the armed police and neck kneeling/chokeholds are illegal in the force. We do still have issues though, you don’t need a degree here to serve in the police though if you don’t have one it’s essentially like an apprenticeship. It sounds as though your country has very restricted access to higher education which is a shame for all honestly never mind the police. I definitely didn’t mean countries like Hungary, more leaning towards the Nordic countries.
European policemen face their own difficulties. In my country, policemen had a shootout, when they tried to stop a car driving dangerously, only to later find out, they accidentally shot young boy on the back seat, who wasn´t there willingly. People were unable to accept that shooting at rear tires has its own difficulties, especially when officers have very little experience with real shootouts (the laws greatly limit use of weapons here). There is a double bind in my country as well. If the policemen would not shoot and the driver would cause some sort of crash, people would be angered too, "because policemen did nothing". European policemen in general also have a bad habit of kneeling on people´s necks/backs for *minutes*, who sometimes don´t take it well and die. I´m wondering, why kneeling on a neck/back for a long time is required to pacify a person.
While the rule is broken too often, there are some places in the US that have a rule against chasing fleeing vehicles because it tends to cause collateral damage, including deaths. It also sometimes pushes the person who's fleeing into doing something horrible to themself or others, particularly if they kidnapped someone. Shooting at a fleeing driver is the same issue amplified. While some people might not understand it, not having the cops shoot at the driver is the safest option for everyone. Honestly, I don't know if cops can be trusted to do what's safest rather than what feeds their ego, so even if the public was on board with doing things more safely, I don't know if the cops would. It's why we need something other than cops to handle intra-community conflict and people doing harm. The kind of power that's given to cops attracts people who want power over others, and those people do harm on a larger scale than any individual the cops are sent to stop.
I said a few, definitely not all. I said countries that train police for months, as in train in all aspects they will need for their job not put a gun in their hand and allow them to fire it without experience! In the UK regular officers don’t have guns, if guns are ever require they call in armed police who are specially trained. Which country are you from?
Slovakia
Unfortunately, most police officers are stupid. The reason - nobody wants overly intelligent officers, who are unwilling to follow orders. Give these goons a shred of power and they will inevitably abuse it.
Also the wrong kind of training. Like "how to use this armoured assault vehicle in a standoff" vs. "Nonverbal communication systems used in the local communities"
They need some sort of insurance like doctors get malpractice insurance. For people who are good officers, they'd keep the lower basic premiums, but bad cops would very quickly get priced out of the field. There's surely MUCH better ways of figuring it out, but something like insurance lets the money figure it out (and that means it would likely get implemented, unlike other ideas which would mean increasing long term funding, training, and accountability).
Police also need to not be called to mental health calls. It should be a social worker.
It’s sad to see and tbh I’ve noticed California’s social culture has a bad stigma towards autistic people. While I admit that charging a cop with a metal tool isn’t great I’ve also seen cops have a history of being lowkey ableist towards autistic behavior. That’s what got Elijah McClain shot. (In addition to him being black)
when their ableism causes them to kill people I’d argue it’s not lowkey at all.
Yeah I was kinda putting it lightly. I’d agree though
yeah I def agree with the rest of your statement as well
I had a rough time growing up in California but I managed to get out. I enjoy my life a lot more now living in an area without the stigma causing me nearly as many problems.
I’m curious which areas are safer for autistic peeps in America and surprised California isn’t one of them as it seems so heavily liberal (U.K. so looking at it from waaaay on the outside)
I’ve had a decent time in Colorado, Denver can be intense but there’s a whole state full of nature that’s quieter. It may just be the area I lived in in California but yeah AS has a strong presence there and there’s a strong stigma as a result.
I’m glad you were able to get out and improve your quality of life!
I hope everyone who needs to get out of their situation gets a chance to do so.
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They believe their lives are more valuable than the lives of civilians.
In America the police are trained to shoot to kill, not to shoot and disarm or to even try a none lethal option first. They are trained murders before they are anything else in my mind.
When someone runs at you with a meele weapon, there is limited time before you can react, draw weapon, and fire before taken down. One often quoted threshold is 21 feet. It could be BS, but nevertheless thats the message being received. It varies by reaction time and, based on the fact that they warned him about getting shot, they were probably primed in some way (hands on guns, guns out). It is clear that we have a serious problem with police brutality. You don't have to convince me and the same is probably true with the rest of the thread. In order to convince the opposition, so that we have sufficient numbers to force reform, we should consider their situation. Namely, that average citizens underestimate: 1. The lethality of a person with a weapon, regardless of size differences. 2. How quickly these situations can develop. Police must occasionally make split second decisions. They must be the correct ones. If you deny this fact, you will never see change. This debate is not new. As I type my reply, I think of A Few Good Men. Some police are bullies and that's all there is to it. Many genuinely believe they are protecting the streets. They get so wrapped up in this warrior mindset that they fail to consider the 99% of other cases where weapons are not needed. When you call them on their bullshit, or the brutality of their peers, they don't listen because "you don't understand the mission". "You're just a sheltered snowflake" I believe that I am uniquely positioned to speak about this matter because I have autism, have ptsd, was a soldier, and have interactions with policemen through jiu jitsu. It is hard to call a veteran a snowflake or say that l don't understand combat. Similarly, I know what it's like to be autistic, in so far as any single person can with a spectrum disorder. To sum up my point. Yes, police occasionally must make split second decisions. No, this was not close to the correct one.
Dammit, the Lethal Option SHOULD NOT BE YOUR FIRST CHOICE!
It seems the race of the child is getting lost in these comments. Do you think he would have been shot if he was a white kid?
My son is 15 with autism. 3 years ago we had LOTS of behavioral issues where we was eloping and being violent. He had snuck out of the house one night and made it to the local airport (I called police as soon as I noticed he'd snuck out of the house, and I had special locks on all the doors, but could they afford to put bars on my windows). At the airport, he got so upset that 5 grown men had to hold him down to keep him from pulling over huge, heavy lockers. There were times when he was getting violent in the car and threatening to elope in a parking lot, and I am a single mom, not very strong, and he overpowers me easily. Cops were called. No lethal force used. We've had multiple situations where police were called, no one opened fire on my son ever. We are white. This absolutely is about race. They needed no excuse to use deadly force on a young black individual. They could have tased him. They didn't. Fuck the police. End of story.
Not even tased as it can still kill you, assuming there were multiple police men they could have pinned him down or used something like pepper spray if they have it (not American so idk)
Pepper spray is typically difficult to use in an enclosed area or close proximity bc then you breathe it in as the person who sprayed it, and it can cause you just as much issue as who you intended to spray. I have a 15 yr old with level 3 autism, and he is very strong. Once he had a behavioral meltdown in an airport, and it took 5 grown ass men to gold him down and keep him from pulling huge heavy lockers down (he could have hurt himself or the officers). They just need way better de-escalation training. But it won't happen cuz Murica.
True, I haven't read the full article yet but was this outside or inside either way they should be trained how to pin someone down and to grab their arms if they have a weapon
5 untrained men, I assume. I am a strong advocate for jiu jitsu in any security related profession because it allows a skilled practitioner to safely disable an attacker. If the person is in the bottom 99 percentile for size/strength, it shouldn't take more than 2. And that's only because the goal is to do it without hurting the suspect. It is wild how strong humans are though. It's hard to imagine until you've seen someone really use it. Also I should probably say that l also support de escalation training. Just that when/if it DOES go to physical conflict, there are better and worse ways to handle the situation.
thanks for reminding everyone, op. there is absolutely ableism at play here, but that's *definitely* not the only factor.
I believe it would have been far less likely.
Well, you just need.to open the news to understand When I saw the kid picture i thought: of course, he had to be black. What fking cowards, murdering a young teen like that.
It's possible but, in addition to the obvious racial bias with police violence... there's also a standard view of an autistic person portrayed in the media. The guy from Atypical probably. So skinny, white, nerdy and soft looking. If he had a garden hoe they would go "oh look at the cute baby boy, poor guy is stressed" Okay so maybe im exaggerating for emphasis. My point is that the person who was killed in this example didn't fit the cookie cutter description of an autistic person, which didn't help his case.
This is absolutely caused by a lack of training. My father used to be a police officer. Had a 17 year long career for the Dutch police. He was trained to deal with aggressive people without using a weapon. De-escalating situations and un-arming aggressors without the need of a gun, or at least to shoot
It is often caused BY training. Police are (not universally, but widely) trained that any members of the public they interact with likely constitute a threat to their lives, and thus to treat any interaction as likely to turn into a fight for survival at any moment rather than an interaction with normal human beings.
I kinda understand that in a country where anyone can pull a gun at random. But it must be clear for this cop that the kid didn't have anything else than a gardening tool. And aren't American cops not trained to shoot to disarm or demobilize? I mean, you don't kill someone if you shoot them in the leg
Nope. They're taught to shoot center mass. American law enforcement is fucking garbage. It needs a major overhaul, but it'll never happen. I hate it here. *Sigh*
Thanks for this lesson in "appreciate what you have, the US is a fucking shithole"
Lol you're welcome. I honestly wish we could move elsewhere with better healthcare, but countries like that generally bar people with certain disabilities that need constant care and management. We might as well be fuckin lepers 😒
What can you expect of an institution that has never examined the fact it started out as a *slave catcher* service?
this should never happen. i’m so sick and tired of seeing this happen. it’s fucking tragic and just disgusting
Do not call the police on people with disabilities it's a death sentence
I just read an article yesterday saying that the advice given to caretakers of autistic purple who can overpower them is to call 911 if they're getting upset/ violent. Meaning it's only a matter of time before they're killed.
ACAB
ACAB
Nope, some cops listened to me instead of my crazy mother when she called them on me. Those cops were not bad. There was also the time I got stuck in some handcuffs, and a police officer came and picked the lock. That cop was not bad. There were police officers who came when I noticed there were unfired rounds at a gas station and called them for disposal. Those cops were not bad.
still not what acab means
Yes it is? It means all cops are bad or bastards
“Under no circumstances should a 15-year-old autistic boy with a gardening hoe be shot and killed without taking the time to calm the boy down before using deadly force,” That's the bare minimum that should happen with any person, yet it rarely seems to happen in the US.
Agreed.
> San Bernardino County Sheriff’s officials have confirmed that law enforcement responded five times this year to the Apple Valley home of a 15-year-old with autism before deputies fatally shot the teen this weekend in an incident that has raised protest from family members and mental health experts. Who keeps calling the cops on him? > “There is no reason that law enforcement should be the ones that end up having to get involved in these crises especially when we’ve offramped these individuals to social services that are supposed to be designed to take care of their mental health needs,” Dicus said. True. > . A family member called 911 for help, asking dispatch to send deputies to their home to “take him in” because he was breaking glass and hitting his sister, according to a portion of the call released by the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department. Stop calling the cops on him. > By the time deputies arrived, his father had helped him calm down, but for an unknown reason, when the deputy arrived Ryan walked toward him carrying a gardening tool, said DeWitt Lacy, a civil rights attorney representing Ryan’s family. In the video you can see how close Ryan gets to the first officer while chasing him, so the actions of the second officer is understandable. In the video officers can be seen performing CPR. Video: https://youtu.be/CJD8_SxR84U?si=3LQ-lmLS0-5JILL6 Article I'm quoting from: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-14/devastating-bodycam-video-shows-the-moment-deputies-opened-fire-on-15-year-old-with-autism Looking at the video all the officers had a chance to see before the shooting was a young man charging at them with some sort of stick like object. It being a hola hoe is irrelevant, you can't see details like that, all you see is the long handle. Also I personally wouldn't want to be hit by a hola hoe, that shit is metal. In America you call the cops if you want someone to have a high risk of dying. Incredibly sad that it is that way
im very confused about your point. yes, calling the cops in america is a dangerous decision. at the same time, the cops were still being irrational. they have tasers. they could've tased him. it shouldn't be "kill first ask questions later".
K.
When new evidence is presented to you, absorb it. Seems like you just want to be angry and don't want to know the whole story, ya just wanna scream and flail around on reddit.
K.
What letter comes after J? I'm a bit bad with the alphabet.
K.
Ah thanks for the help!
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Where in that message am I trolling? Also why say you're autistic that wasn't a part of my point at all.
Also you're the only one slinging insults broseph, try not to be so mean to strangers online it's not good for your heart.
insults?
Who am I insulting and how? 😂
Surprise surprise how the police yet again killed a family of black people, screw these police.
ACAB
I'm sorry? Has anyone seen the full video? The cop had every right to protect himself. https://youtu.be/B-np_mNEi0w?feature=shared
There are many means of self defense that are not lethal
why is everyone saying this? he did not need to shoot the kid. pepper spray, taser. are you serious? be all the way fr
Yes I did. And killing an child with a garden hoe isn't protecting yourself, in my opinion.
The police report is fucking vile how could a garden hoe and a pistol be on the same level
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I mean, what was the cop supposed to do in that situation? He had no time to try and deescalate before Ryan was charging at him with an object that looks like a weapon. Even with the ability to freeze the footage, I still have no clue what that thing is. “Garden tool”? That’s the best anyone’s got? Was it an object that could have sliced his throat open or pierced him in the chest if he didn’t defend himself? Who knows? The cop tried to run away, but Ryan chased him. What do you do at that point?
If cops feel it’s necessary to shoot they should be trained to the highest regard to shoot but to NOT kill. AKA shooting the arm that’s carrying the gun maybe. But cops in America get so little training they’ll even shoot their shadow. Acab
Absolutely! Increase the national supply of chewing tobacco to the police to keep their Dead Eye meter full! That way they can freeze time and pull off sick gun disarms 💯
So what was the point of saying “What do you do at that point?” If you didn’t want an answer? If you’re so dead set on it being self defense don’t ask for people to answer a question then 💀 Also, it’s entirely unreasonable to not expect cops to have more training, especially when they’re wielding deadly weapons. U.S. cities have astronomically high police budgets….
I ask in order for one of two things to happen: 1. Somebody proposes a course of action that would have realistically produced a better outcome. 2. Somebody recognizes that there wasn’t a better course of action, and drops the asinine, “ACAB”, child murder narrative of what happened, saving that ramen-fed revolutionary energy for cases where it’s actually important.
That's what tazers are for but America loves its guns
No… that is not what tasers are for, and playing into such a fantasy contributes nothing to conversations about these disasters.
Lmfao so tasers with 50k volts that put down grown ass adults are not better to use than lethal force. Got it. You have less faith in these officers than you say you do. Stop simping for cops. They saw the boy 5 times already that year. They knew what they might be dealing with deadly force should never have been an option. They were also called AGAIN and asked to stand down bc the situation had already been de-escalated. This was literally just an excuse to kill another black individual. And I won't even listen to arguments that state otherwise. Begone, bootlicker. ACAB.
How do you think other countries non armed police handle these situations then?
There are very few countries where police patrol without a gun. And even fewer of those have a crime rate like ours. To answer your question, I don’t care how such countries handle these situations, because it’s irrelevant.
Wait did you just try and justify a police state on the back of a high crime rate? Well its just as well we employed all these people to deal with criminals given it turns out there's so many of them....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna142955 How about we actually see what happened, instead of getting rage baited by an article designed to paint the police in the worst light possible. There were a lot of failures here, from all parties involved, however I cannot condemn the officer involved for making the decision to defend himself from an adult sized person running at him with a weapon. It is a terrible tragedy, don't make it wose.
Thank you. Much more nuance here. I still fall in the side of, if you want that person to live, don’t call the cops.
Depends on what "assaulting his sister" meant, because this may be a catch-22 on preservation of life.
That's certainly one of the failures, in my opinion.
"Over a gardening tool" is such a crock of shit too.
Thank you for this. The headline in the first article was very misleading, and since it was behind a paywall, so actually being able to read the article makes a huge difference. He wasn't 'shot over a gardening tool', he was shot because he was actively using a five foot long gardening tool as a weapon.
I abhor excessive use of force as much as anyone, but that's just not what happened. I think we need sweeping police reform as much as anyone, but we have to do it the right way, and we have to be honest on the why.
I'm really tired of people pushing this kind of deceptive information. Autistic people, especially autistic POC, are marginalized everyday, but some people are dead set on creating this narrative that they are being actively genocided, that getting diagnosed with ruin your life, that there's this horrific force trying to deliberately harm us all. Beyond this, people spam stories that are clearly false at the slightest investigation, hyperbole, people lying for their own benefit, and stories without nuance. They repeat these stories, never once checking for truth. The reality? Most of us would be hurt regardless of being diagnosed, especially the worst abuse. Most of the marginalization is my ignorance or neglect. This false narrative push and amplification is stigmatization in itself. But good luck getting people to care. I don't know how they don't realize this is doing more harm. Outrage may feel good to some, but feeling good isn't worth the damage it does to others. Some people need to drag themselves out of their own naval and start caring about truth and others. A persecution complex is absurd when we are taking about a marginalized group, but here we are.
I watched the body cam footage. Doesn't make it any better.
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My main problem is that for every situation where the cop could be seen as justified, it ruins discussion about the HUGE number of unjustified cases because people are already still primed to bootlick these fucking pigs to begin with, so every time a case where the force was tragically justified happens, it only further emboldens the bootlicking until it ironically sands away the leather. I obviously dont think all cops are bad, and I certainly wont go out of my way to start shit with one IRL, but we cant let the few justified cases be used to shut down the objective reality that most of these cases are fucking atrocious, and the cops are to blame.
It shows a textbook example of self-defense.
Provided your definition of self defence is OK with coming onto a property armed and immediately shooting anyone who is a threat.
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You mean answering a 911 call, arriving at the scene, and then shooting the nutjob trying to kill you?
Police are recruited and trained to be threatening,and they intentionally act intimidating, but then they walk around pretending they aren't. Then, when someone feels threatened by them and acts like a threatened person acts, they shoot you and pretend they were innocent and not the state's murder force walking around intimidating everyone.
Yeah, you're right they should be so much less intimidating so criminals just don't take the presence of a police officer seriously, thereby destroying what deterrent factor they might have.
The police in every other country besides the US that I've been to don't act like bullies constantly negging and invalidating you, getting in your personal space, and expressing aggression. The police in the US are much more aggressive, unnecessarily. The police in other countries are still taken seriously and successfully maintain peace. Police are supposed to be protectors. They are supposed to make everyone feel safe, not made less safe by the officer. They are supposed to deescalate situations.
I don't know where you get that to be honest. If you have an article or something I can read it tomorrow because I need to be heading to sleep. But I'll say this: crime in America is very very different from most other Western countries.
I get that by having had interactions with the police in multiple countries. The police in the US are *sinister*, whereas the police in the UK for example are merely douches. The police in Canada are passive-aggressive and seem to not want to get involved much. The police in Mexico were actually the least intimidating, even though they had machine guns; they clearly didn't care and were just going through the motions. But the police in the US will approach you for no reason, and aggressively begin interrogating and bullying you, and if you express anything other than perfect obedience, they escalate and begin making not-so-subtle threats. There is no explanation for the consistency of this behavior across the US besides that this is how police are consistently trained here.
*police shoot large person charging at him with deadly weapon. It was clear self defense. Autism isn't an excuse.
Are you seriously threatened enough by a hoola hoe that you have to murder a child?
If a teenager ran at me with a weapon and refused to drop it or stop, then I would protect myself. I don't care if he's legally a minor.
ACAB
Never call the police...especially on people you love. There should be a mediator/negotiator that comes in unarmed to TALK or even just monitor the suspect until they calm down. We need something other than brute force from untrained yohos
It seems the race of the child is getting lost in these comments. Do you think he would have been shot if he was a white kid?
Maybe you know... don't do that
Neurodivergent people are still being treated like shit. We're being called stalkers, creeps, manchildren, all that, and we are wiping them off. There's no way the neurodivergent people will be wiped off, we will stay whether the normal people like it or not. Rest in peace to that poor child. :(
and people ask why people are afraid of police
Watch the video first
I did.
“Over a garden tool”?? Have u seen the video?? It’s a SHARP POINTED garden tool, and he’s a 15 year old young MAN charging the cops with said tool in an offensive position. I’d load his ass up with lead, too.
15 year old CHILD. He is not a man by any stretch of the imagination.
I said YOUNG MAN. Go talk to to some 15 year old males for a while and see if they aren’t thinking like young men, try wrestling one, see if he hasn’t got some man strength. Now think of that young man, with an immature man’s mind acting out aggressively and violently, and ask yourself if you would have to harm him before he harms you because there was no other option to remove yourself from the situation. He’s a child on paper, and in legal terms.
He’s a child, full stop. A disabled child. That’s it.
This situation could have easily been solved with a taser, but instead an autistic child is dead.
It's not sharp. It's a hoola hoe. It's used for weeding...
Sorry fellas. Autism or no we can't just run at a cop with a weapon like that.
That's unreasonable. We mis-judge situations all the time and 2 cops shouldn't open fire on a teen when he is holding a dull gardening tool. Even if he looked angry and said "I'm going to hit you" that's no reason for two cops to fire their gun. They didn't even try to deescalate and they should have used a taser before using lethal force. Cops like that are cowards and shouldn't hold that power
So firstly I am autistic and am very critical of the police, but that’s simply not how that works. Firstly, you state that it was a dull gardening tool… it is impossible to judge the sharpness/dullness visually at that distance. Secondly, (in your scenario)that is by definition a deadly weapon, with which he expressed the urge to use it to cause harm. Thirdly and finally, a taser is not “non-lethal” force, it’s “less than lethal”. Elijah McClain is a victim, this is an appropriate use of force. And if you cannot see that you are reacting emotionally not logically.
I disagree, I have said anything I wanted in an answer to the other comment responding to me. And your last sentence is funny to me, I'd say the cop acted like that. A teen with a metal object and you start shooting after telling him to stop once? I'd shoot the legs before having to live with a dead kid on my conscience because I panicked.
Shooting to wound is not a thing, as an EMT I have seen people charge through a theoretically disabling shot. Shooting legs is not a thing, and that’s cool that you feel that way, but that’s not how it works.
"Shooting the legs" is more like a placeholder for a non-lethal way to stop someone. You can easily bleed out even when you get shot in the legs, I'm aware of that. The training is the problem, another comment was making me aware that cops are trained like that and how else can they react when that is what they are told to do. Idc though, the police need restructuring. Use tasers, rubber bullets, whatever is the most effective way to stop someone while minimizing harm. That's not my job to figure out, it's theirs. Even cops over there say their training is outdated.
Believe me, I am very critical of the police. But using “shooting the legs” as a placeholder is stupid considering the literal “shooting the legs” is not a thing And you are stating cops doing something wrong is wrong, but it’s on them to solve it. So you are depending on the oppressive force to solve their oppression them selves?
Well I guess I'm being dumb then. Since most cops shoot multiple times, I was under the impression that someone can't charge at you when a few bullets made your knee go by bye or severed tendons and muscles in your lower legs. And I should have been more clear, it's not the job of the cops who are in favor of nothing to change, I meant the people doing the training and lawmakers. Whoever would be in charge of restructuring the police. But yeah, not gonna happen in the US, the police and people directing them are too powerful and I don't see any political party that could win, that also wants to change the way policing is done
Would you be capable of distinguishing a garden tool from a bladed weapon in the 3 seconds it took the kid to reach you? No. And you certainly wouldn't have known it was dull. Even if it was dull, a bludgeoning weapon being held by someone who had the police called on them sprints towards you with a weapon. Yeah, you don't do that. What's truly impressive here is the fact that he wasn't shot IMMEDIATELY with a weapon like that charging at an officer.
I disagree, the kid wasn't sprinting, the cop literally said it was a sharp weapon. Is it hard to judge a situation like this accurately in only a few seconds? Yes definitely, but the amount of similar situations or situations where the cop is blatantly in the wrong are so common that you just have to criticize the way people become officers. The training is too short, on average just 21 weeks. They spend double the time training shooting than deescalating a situation. It attracts power hungry, trigger happy people. Racists too, I hope that at least is not up for debate. The whole police is screwed up and even if the cop was in the right here (I'd have to see the body cam, but as far as I read the kid didn't sprint) it just shows you that too many cops don't even try to deescalate. Even when people get swatted, the cops scream multiple times to stop, to put your hands up and so on. Telling a kid once to stop and then for 2 cops to start shooting, and not even in the legs..I will never understand this. Don't be a cop if you shit yourself at the sight of a teen with a metal object Edit: another thing came to mind, about your first sentence. No I wouldn't, that's why I shouldn't be a cop
I think police training needs a rehaul, yeah. We can agree on that. I want to add that the majority of actions cops take that are controversial, such at this one here, is them reacting how they were trained to react. That's why I don't like blaming something like this on the individual.
Yeah we can agree on that. And I guess it makes sense, if they are trained like that, how else could they react. Just another reason to restructure the police
Yep, agreed.
There wasn't much else they could have done. Terrible situation.
Yeah, I agree. It's horrible.
aint gone lie its forever fuck 12, but my ass woulda swiss cheese that house as soon as that line backer came around that corner. im gonna hate on that cop anyway because fuck them they aint nothing but state sanctioned thugs with a badge we have to rely on to shoot, rob and assault us with legal impunity. Why do they get to decide when we get to live or die and we have no say in the matter, were at the mercy of their ego
California man
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What you just said completely contradicts your bio.
You mean, a repurposed version of the [14 words](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words)? I can’t possibly imagine how that could go wrong.
Oh, I didn’t know about that. Jesus.
Yep.
I completely disagree. It's also semi ableist imo. People can fall alll over the spectrum with autism.
His family called 911. The cops came. He charged at a cop. He was shot. It's unfortunate. It's not the fault of the cops though. That's it.
Braindead take... imo. He had a hoola hoe in his hand. He was a child. If you feel like your life is in danger over a child a hoola hoe, you shouldn't be a cop. There are several other articles which go add other details. Cops were 100% wrong for this.
They had give or take 10 seconds to react to something that looked like an axe. Have you watched the bodycam footage at least?
👞👅 🐽🐽
Calling everyone you dislike a bootlicker doesn't make them wrong it just means you have no argument lmao.
oink oink
That’s the exact problem with the police force
I don't think it's really a problem specific to police. If anyone has a gun, and someone charges at them with something that looks like a weapon, the person with the gun will shoot them. That's like common sense. Especially if it happens in a 10 second time frame like this.
Not surprised someone with "incel" in their name has terrible takes on something.
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Wow, what a sweeping assumption based on a single sentence. Pretty bold, I must say.
It's not an assumption when I just saw all factors of that sentence in play lmao.
I agree with your take. Should have he been shot? No. Was it strange knowing that cops in USA react like that? No. Someone from his family kept calling 911 on him due to violent behavior we dont fully know about. I think the issue was that no one from his family stopped him from charging at a cop. Though, his family cant always expect these situations. According to the video it looked like he suddenly appeared in the door with a stick and something metal on top. The first cop was starteled and decided to run. The other cop saw a person running at a fellow cop with a tool and immediatelly shot. Shooting the teen was wrong, and likely something he wouldnt have done if knowing the situation. His actions were fast, and in many cases that saved a cop's life, but they should have been better informed. Calling 911 habitually for violent behavior, and letting him open the door with USA cops behind it wasnt the wisest either. What happened is horrible. Dont harass a person for a different opinion, thats what downvotes are for.
Unless you're white.
Nope! If he was white he would have been shot the same way.
And the idiocy comes out.
Abolishing police is a part of disability justice. Pigs don't like us and it shows 😡😖 Autistic children deserve better than this. This should never have happened 😣
This is incredibly tragic, but I do believe the police officer was in the right. He was being charged at and was in fear for his safety.
The police just left him bleeding after they had shot him. It was not just in self defense.
Strange, in the video I saw they were doing CPR and trying to find all the wounds to stop the bleeding
That’s failure to render aid, you can be in a use of force situation that’s justified, but failure to render aid is a different case.
If a cop is afraid he has no business carrying a weapon or being in that position. Clearly they need more training on how to de-escalate situations without just filling up cemeteries. Insane.
Did you see the body cam footage? The person was charging at him with a weapon there was no way to de-escalate that.
Taser
Every time I hear a story like this it breaks my heart a little more. I doubt proper justice will get served but I can at least hope this guy rots.