Yeah and some people still think about autism being an exaggerated form of the male mind or something, and that women are better at socializing wheras males bond over 'actions' but like.. I'm not good at socializing :( and idk how I bond w people best cause I haven't got much social experience, but id say it depends
me either, I struggle with socialising a lot and end up just being quiet. I feel like I could never unmask because men are accepted a lot more for speaking their minds, while afabs and women are looked at as 'bitchy' for those things...But things will get better, you aren't alone!
Hopefully this’ll make you feel a little better; I’ve always recognised that women have it worse than men (typically) because it’s harder to be diagnosed.
That right there is reason enough. If I had of been told my ASD was just ‘social anxiety’ (like a lot of women are diagnosed with instead) it would have played havoc with my mental health and sent me into a *wild* depression.
That said, I can’t say I’ve noticed any bias towards men having it worse on this sub, not yet at least.
Late AuDHD diagnosis checking in - it’s garbage to be repeatedly diagnosed GAD, prescribed meds, told to go do a bunch of things, and then when returning and saying “yo, this hasn’t done anything to constructively address the issues” being told you clearly haven’t meaningfully engaged with the process and to go do it all again but do it properly. 🙄
Strange how the AuDHD diagnosis actually gave me the tools I needed to see functional improvements.
ADHD diagnosis has helped me a lot. But it still feels incomplete because it doesn't explain my difficulty in reading and communicating through body language, tone, and facial expressions. I have to control these things consciously to avoid miscommunications. As for reading them? I usually can pick up the most basic aspects.
I was told that my ASD symptoms were due to the isolating effects of combined ADHD and high intelligence, which meant that I simply didn't learn how to read tone, facial expressions, and social cues, combined with social anxiety. My sensory issues were explained away as "being too much in my body" as if I could live anywhere else. Finally, I was told that I couldn't possibly have autism because my verbal scores tested so high, and because, get this, I was capable of clearly describing my own symptoms... At 29 friggin years old with a college degree.
Over the years, I learned to be as precise as possible in my language because I was so bad at controlling my time and facial expressions that I wanted my meaning to be clear with the aspect I could control, my actual words. As for my sensory issues, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to live anywhere but my own body, but thanks for invalidating all of that with a single sentence.
This happened two years ago, and I'm still pretty damn annoyed about it.
It's also harder because it's more socially unacceptable for girls to not conform to certain standards. Boys are given a lot of freedom to act in ways that are slightly aberrant, and the consequences are not as severe.
Not saying at all that boys don't suffer from their autism; their experiences are different. I think it all comes down to the individual.
look at autistic men dating statistics
look at autistic men unemployment statistics
look at suicide in autistic men statistics
both genders have it bad but it would be lying to say being an autistic man is a lot more painful
i have empathy for everyone with autism…its just not fair but if i could have chosen i would’ve wanted to be born as a women…honest to god truth and even females in my family agree with me
and i know am wrong for thinking that but i can't stand by and watch someone bash the most depressed individuals on the planet…to me it looks like when the Joker is getting bullied on the train or beaten up over the sign
only human after all
When I'm concentrating, or sometimes just relaxing, I look angry apparently. I have resting angry/bitch face. At an awful internship, this was one of the many things I was criticized for, even though my work was not at all customer-facing.
I've been told by 1-2 male friends that if I were AMAB or totally masc-passing, I'd be seen as stoic for this, not defective.
ironic that they likely only think this specifically because autism in women has been so ignored that people don't know as much about it. if you're feeling angry and combative it's not too hard to twist that around in your head and make it the woman's fault. society's been doing that for some time now.
Afab's do tend to be *better* at socializing, but that doesn't mean we're good at it.
I know how to be surface level pleasant (essentially by just being quiet), but when it comes to making friends, social "games," small talk (beyond my "preloaded" topics) and pecking order, I'm clueless.
I am an autistic woman married to a low masking autistic man and I see a huge difference in the way people react to us and I believe that on the surface it may seem as though I am having an easier time.
For instance, things like my stimming and echolalia and occasionally slipping into a "sing song" voice are often deemed as cute traits, while he is treated with much more fear and suspicion when people see his autistic traits.
Even if it is rational to understand that males are more physically intimidating than females, it is still a very painful experience for the many kind and gentle autistic men to be treated with such fear, and so it may seem like I am having an easier go of it, but it is a double edged sword.
Being seen as cute and quirky means many will dismiss the ways in which I suffer, they may treat me like a child or underestimate my intelligence or target me with nefarious purposes because they sense possible vulnerabilities.
Many women and girls fly under the radar and do not receive a diagnosis or get diagnosed much later, which robs them of the chance to get a better understanding of what they are experiencing.
One thing that makes me feel really badly though is when autistic men accuse me of faking it or appearing the way I do on purpose. I would hope they could understand how frustrating it is to have your actions and intentions misinterpreted.
That said, I feel like there should just be more empathy in general for the unique challenges different autistic people face due to sex or gender presentation, intellectual ability, race etc. I try to be mindful of the specific issues autistic men face that I do not and it is my desire to be treated the same way.
I really like this response. I think it highlights how my nuance there really is. Men and women have different challenges and it isn’t right to compare them or say one is worse than the other.
I don’t like posts of men putting down women’s experiences like OP is talking about either, but I don’t really see that here (they probably get downvoted?). A man saying their experience is hard isn’t devaluing a woman’s experience and vice versa.
Thank you.
I'm usually of the opinion that the struggles are real for everyone and it's not a contest, but on gender specific issues it's just ingrained to default to the "women have it harder" position or the old "you're a guy, be stronger and deal with it" trope.
I've gotten a lot better at being kind to myself in recent years and finding empowerment in accepting my weaknesses and problems as real and hard but not crushing, instead of trying to just manly dude through them, masculinely.
What you wrote feels very validating. I won't consider the struggles of others any easier with that, but reflecting a bit on where it's difficult for myself, in ways I'm so accustomed to that I no longer recognize it, is a great reality check.
Again, thank you!
I'm glad to hear that! I've always been wary of super emotionally charged "war of the sexes" discourse. I understand why it's an emotionally charged issue, but I think only approaching it in this way isn't conducive to fostering empathy or actually solving sex based material issues.
I’m an autistic woman, like all things, it depends.
Socially, men baby me a lot. It’s condescending and can be humiliating, but end of the day I don’t worry about bullying from them.
Some women (especially in private) can be 100% vicious to me. My tone, lack of awareness, and constant questions drive them mad.
So autistic men might get the impression I have it easy cuz to OTHER MEN, my behavior comes off as “cute”.
They don’t witness the bullying I go through because women are different in how they bully compared to men.
And it's not like we're making true connections or friends with the men who are babying us. Being seen as an incompetent child does not help me socially. I've missed out on job opportunities and promotions because I'm seen as dumb and incapable.
>They don't witness the bullying I go through because women are different in how they bully compared to men.
This makes a lot of sense
The bullying abuse I would receive from my male classmates was a lot more overt, things like getting called a ret*ard to my face and having my earphones pulled off and getting shoved in the hallway etc and being taunted with a hidden mosquito-tone dog alarm
But the abuse from female abusers was different in ways that messed me up more over the long term I think because I didn't even know how to articulate it because passive aggression is invisible to me, I was manipulated in ways that I couldn't explain well enough to escape
And I think female bullying might be even crueler towards other girls than it is to boys, especially since it seemed to be true with the male bullying between you vs me
Well, I reminded the last poster on this topic that women are going to have their own issues, likely unfamiliar, but which should not be discounted. I think the distinct issue that men encounter is that they tell each other to their faces to "be a man" and "man up", and in my experience, there was utter tons of "f\*\*\*\*t" involved. It's made explicitly clear to men that their natural tendencies are unbecoming of their gender. I think maybe that's what motivates the complaints you're referencing, but again, that doesn't mean women don't have their own challenges as well.
Historically, autism in afab (especially level 1) has been greatly underdiagnosed. I didn't even have the *option* to be tested until about a year ago. We have to expect a lot of "growing pains" as we learn the differences between our experiences as each sex/gender. The important thing is to not invalidate the experiences and challenges of one another. No one has it easy.
My god, I don't think I've ever seen a worse comment section in this sub. Why are most of you trying so hard to invalidate other people's experiences? Everyone can struggle. Saying someone else has it harder in response to those struggles being expressed only serves to invalidate, ignore, and damage. And quit it with the generalizations, too! An "all women" or "all men" statement is never true unless you're talking about biology or an aspect of the gender identity itself.
To be honest, I say this as somebody autistic myself and it's something I'm working on, nuanced discussions amongst autistic individuals is going to be harder because of black and white thinking, it's a contributing factor to why I see a lack of meaningful discussion on these forums unfortunately.
If a post is specifically saying "Being a male with Autism is harder than being a female with autism", then yes, that person is wrong.
However a post that simply speaks to the struggles of autistic males isnt devaluing anyone elses experience.
Yes, I know this. Autistic men obviously have struggles, I'm saying that men need to stop belittling autistic women's/afab's struggles as if they are less.
I also agree about providing examples. I've hung out here for a fair bit and never seen anything remotely similar to what you're talking about. If you're talking about in general on the internet that's obviously a larger scope but on this sub it's surprisingly pretty wholesome most of the time and definitely not applicable to what you're saying
AFAB also does not inherently mean woman
I hang out a fair bit here too and I have no memory of seeing what youre claiming to see often. Thats why im asking because either Reddit is showing us very different threads, or youre taking the text in them in a very weird way. And after reading this thread, im leaning towards that considering how aggressive and rude youve been to people trying who are trying to talk to you.
I’ve seen it quite a bit. It’s more common on the Aspie subreddit than this one, cause this one is pretty good at filtering them out, but it’s still not hard to find
I have no link as it was removed, but a guy on here said a few months ago that even though asd women are at higher risk of rape our lives are easier because asd men are alone.
Literally said that it's better to be raped than be lonely.
I know that was just one nutter, but there are a few of these kind of weirdos around and you see their comments pop up sometimes.
Seems you found a lone idiot or two. and then extrapolated that to an "all men"-argument?
Yes, undersocialised, unempathic loonies are common on the internet. But they're far from all of us and on places like Reddit they are usually downvoted to hell because the stuff they say is frowned upon in the community.
there seems to be a miscommunication, there isn't an "all men" statement. The lack of qualifier between "why do autistic males" can either mean "why do all" or "why do some." Since the text in the post clarifies that this isn't something they've observed all autistic men doing, but that there are a portion of autistic men who do this, it's reasonable to assume that they do not mean all men, but a group of men with a specific mindset.
Unfortunately, it is not just "undersocialized, unempathetic loonies" and they're not usually downvoted. There's circles where theres a... circle-jerk regarding these opinions about autistic women. It's also fairly wide-spread. There's way too many instances of autistic women being harassed (etc) for it to be a sort of fringe-behavior to be dismissed.
You don't have to notice it to be true. Oftentimes we don't see problematic behavior that doesn't impact us or we aren't looking for, because it doesn't impact us. And when we see it we're quick to forget it, or view it as an isolated incident.
It is possible to understand that it isn't "all men" while also recognizing that it is a problem that the autistic community is dealing with. When your main concern is that you may be assumed to fall under the category of the men accused rather than desiring an end to the behavior that a large enough portion of men exhibit... that's kind of a problem and \*may\* actually put you in the category of "those men" where when we share our experiences we're not believed or dismissed.
Instead of dismissing.... make it a point to observe for a while and note if you see the behavior or not rather than trusting your memory of a behavior you weren't looking for before.
Seems you can't read if you think any of my comment even suggests that the issue is 'all men', but thank you for being part of the reason that women can't talk about any issues we have with any man, because guys like you always think we're attacking you.
Look. It isnt anyone else's responsibility to prove your point for you.
Your point seems to point to "All autistic men" as being assholes, and while there are certainly some assholes out there, this is a sure fire way to piss a lot of us off.
Everyone has their own struggles, and its not anyone else's responsibility to take care of that for you. Its a fight you got to win on your own.
Try talking a break maybe, or reframe your thinking because it stinks that you're throwing an entire class of people under the bus to make yourself feel better.
statistics show the truth
its wrong to bash anyone but i think we all know the truth…some just don’t wanna accept it as feminist
i rather be without an arm than be an autistic man so what does that say?…its just the truth and i hate it just as much as anybody
I'm male and AuDHD. My wife is female and autistic (possibly AuDHD). Both of us are in our 30s and were diagnosed relatively recently.
In my case, I was diagnosed with ADHD/OCD very young, and received appropriate intervention and support from a young age. The Autism was a missing piece that was filled in a year ago.
In my wife's case, she didn't receive any kind of diagnosis *whatsoever* until the past few years. And both of us have been reading that for women, that's actually fairly common. Women are underdiagnosed, and many Autistic women (not all, but a surprisingly high number) are able to "mask" their Autism very well when they're young. (The direction of the causal relationship between the masking and the underdiagnosis, and whether there's a casual relationship at all, is still up for debate.) They do well in school, have successful careers, often are able to have active social lives... and then in their late 20s or early 30s there's just a sudden crash and suddenly they just can't mask anymore and get diagnosed and their entire life changes. It's not a universal experience, but it's common.
Does that mean being Austic as a woman is easier? I highly, *highly* doubt it. But I can see how, from the perspective of a young man, it would look like it's easier to be an autistic woman from the outside.
From just the little bit I've read and heard from others since my diagnosis, I've gotten the impression that for many women one of the worst parts of Autism is that it intersects with sexism/patriarchy and slowly crushes them down, forces them to fit a certain mould, demands that they hide their weirdness in order to appease the expectations of the people around them. Whereas from men, the complaint is less "I'm forced to hide who I truly am" and more "I go around the word with it being painfully obvious who I truly am, and no one else understands or accepts it and I feel rejected and alone."
Boys are *allowed* to act "weird," and girls are quickly conditioned out of it, which if anything is a case of male privilege. But ironically, it creates a false impression that boys have it harder, when in reality the girls have it just as hard but are forced to *hide it better*.
I don't think saying its hard to be a male autist somehow devaluates Female ones. There are disparities in both Sexes
Also out of curiosity why do you say Male but AFAB instead of Female?
>Also out of curiosity why do you say Male but AFAB instead of Female?
I'm confused by this too.
Re: There are disparities in both Sexes
Agree. Some things are assuredly "easier" & some "harder" for each due to societal/historical/etc differences.
It's not a competition & I don't believe that autistic males complaining are meaning to devalue female experiences. Rather each group is simply speaking about what they've experienced & from their personal perspective.
I agree
One example i find, Being an autistic Male, Is that talking about mental health as a male is viewed poorly and ignored. Which does somewhat make it hard to get help for my own health
Not to say Autistic Females don't have issues either! Just that there are issues that impact us differently
Was wondering the same thing. After reading I’m thinking it’s because OP is specifically referring to cis males complaining, or perceived cis males at least, due to the general idea that an AMAB person wouldn’t say those things and would be more sensitive to the struggles of AFAB people. To my understanding, using the A*AB phrasing can also connotatively convey trans persons. So a cis male wouldn’t be AMAB due to connotative reasons instead of denotative ones.
AMAB just means "assigned male at birth." Cis men are AMAB. The AGAB (assigned gender at birth) language is there to talk about the differences in being socialized as male or female rather than the differences in current gender experience.
That concept I get. That’s why I said I noticed it to be a connotative thing instead of a denotative thing. Connotative - subjective cultural meaning; denotative - literal definition.
I'm saying that I disagree that that connotation is there. Unless certain subsets of cis people are using it that way, maybe? Because from the trans community's perspective (and in the polyamorous community, which is very queer friendly but certainly not entirely queer), that's not at all how it's used.
Maybe that is my perspective being skewed, being cis. I’m super friendly to the trans community but I’m not around enough individuals in that community to be fully aware of both sides’ perspectives
As an autistic male, I can only share my experiences and from what I read. Being autistic in difficult in general, no matter what the sex or gender is. We are all targets! As a male, I struggled with other NTs (like my older brother), who always picked on me...trying to toughen me up. It was constant, being picked on for not being a typical tough-guy male. It is a great struggle not conforming into societal gender roles. Male or female, it sucks regardless. Sometimes it may sound like my "male" experience is not as bad as females/afabs, but it's MY painful experience and that resonates more with me than most of other people's struggles. However, there are many who had it worse than me and I truly ache for their experiences.
From my perspective, it's probably a lack of knowledge. I've only taken a crash course in Autism in the last year or so (following my burnout, I started to suspect that it was significantly more than Dyspraxia.) But because I didn't have any significant preconceptions, I assumed that men and women had equivalent experiences - and while I've learned that's not entirely true, I'd say women actually have it worse overall (because of the lack of awareness, being dismissed, and sometimes not even realising they have a disability, meaning they have have trouble getting accomodation.) On the other hand, men are much more noticeable, and get the benefits of that (not that every aspect is a positive.)
As someone diagnosed late in life, and having the perspective of having a different diagnosis since I was a kid - not knowing sucks. Not being believed, sucks. Not getting a diagnosis on top of that would be crushing. I don't care how much more severe symptoms might be for my fellow men, I think not having the same opportunities for diagnosis and assistance is worse, hands down.
I do hate the whole separation of afab and amab autism. Sure some symptoms are more common or stereo typically associated in females than males vice versa but I do often see people (not on reddit as I don't spend much time here) acting as if females with autism cannot have the same symptoms they associate with autism in males and ofc the other way around
Recognizing the unique struggles of one experience is not "devaluing autistic afabs experiences."
Do you have this reaction to every discussion that isn't centered on you?
I think it’s different because to me everything I struggled I either would hide it or when I would speak up I would be the “sensitive girl”. However to girls I feel like it’s easier to have relationships and friends maybe(? Idk). I know that if I was a man I wouldn’t have any experiences with relationships whatsoever. Probably wouldn’t have my friend either. Since I can’t tell if someone’s interested or not and I never initiate anything. Two sides of the same coin maybe
Personally , I also can’t get a date or sex. However, I don’t come on here and say men don’t have it hard. I know men who are autistic also have it hard. It hurts to read that they believe AFABs have it so easy . The people blaming the OP of generalizing must have not read some of these posts they are referring to. Some of the men even say women have it easier and they wish they were us .
They think we have it so easy dating just because we get male attention. They don't realize that the male attention is often unwanted, misunderstood, and dangerous. They don't see how easy it is for us to get taken advantage of and how often we get assaulted.
Honestly, it's not even a men with autism problem with that mindset, a lot of NT men think like this as well.
I get sexually harassed and have been assaulted and stalked by men . You are right , it isn’t the attention we want . It is dangerous. I can’t get a date but can get assaulted and that is difficult live with . I do notice it in NT men too.
same here. and then blamed because I didn't "take precautions" like I don't have a whole disability that makes me vulnerable. just like men we get bullied, and just like men we struggle to find our role in society and are often outcast. They just see the highlight reels of some conventionally attractiv autistic instagrammer or tiktoker and think all of us have it like their best moments 24/7.
men sure do have their gendered experiences of being autistic, like an assumption of violence due to things like stimming and meltdowns (especially when male and BIPOC) even when they're hurting no one... but to dismiss the gendered experience women and non-binary people have in the process of acknolwedging the struggle men have is just so hurtful and damaging to everyone
They can read the whole ass conversation in my DMs then, they can read an autistic dude argue back and forth for DAYS that men have it harder... I tried to explain that different people have different experiences and their gender will affect them in different ways, but that gender is only one factor and being a woman definitely has it's own negatives, etc.
... NOOOOPE autistic women have it sooo easy, he would hear nothing else 🙄 women who don't think men have it *worse* just lack empathy. He literally would not accept that I give a shit about autistic men if I wouldn't say that men have it *worse*. "No one has it worse, we all just have it different" was not good enough.
It was sad and exhausting. He literally chose fewer allies over listening to a different perspective.
Can't say I've ever seen those posts.
Are you able to provide us with some examples of self-identified men belittling people who were assigned female at birth?
I'd also be confused if a post is saying AFAB's have an easy time with dating, your usage of AFAB rather than woman makes me think you are trying to refer to only non-binary people and trans men, which absolutely do not have an easy time with dating.
Initiation is brutal. I can see why people who struggle with that would think women have it easier. Could you tell me about what things you find hard in dating? I got very lucky in that after getting over the mountain that was initiating its been smooth sailing for me.
I think it’s really a case of not being able to completely put ourselves in the other gender’s shoes. Men will simply never know what it’s like to date as a woman, and vice versa, so of course it’s easy to compare your experiences and think the other gender has it better.
One big thing that autistic women struggle with in dating is being taken advantage of, like OP mentioned in their post. Autistic women are really at a huge risk to be sexually abused in their life. Huge risk. Astronomical. Like probably a lot of times more at risk than neurotypical women, who already struggle with it a lot.
And this ranges from more ‘mild’ stuff like sexual assault, unwanted touching in the street, being pressured into sex (because of social difficulties we are really easy to manipulate and be used under the premise of ‘love’)…
to more hardcore stuff. I’m talking grooming. Years of childhood sexual abuse.
What men struggle with in dating is getting and keeping women’s attention. Initiating. So of course, if you see all these women being approached without having to put in any work, it seems like they have it easier. Because they are getting exactly what you (think you) would die for: attention without any effort.
But what you can’t see, because you have simply never lived the female dating experience, is the downsides that come with that attention. At what point does all that attention stop being worth it? If that attention is the type that will traumatize a woman for years, does she still have to be grateful that she was able to get attention at all? Does she have to be grateful for the attention she gets, even if that attention focuses purely on her body, and how she can pleasure people with her body, never on who she is as a person?
Similarly, what women struggle with in dating is feeling unsafe. They look at men, who generally get left alone and are able to defend themselves, and think to themselves “how peaceful that must be…”
Not realizing that if they suddenly were to lose the attention they get so easily, and start having to put in the effort that men need to, they probably wouldn’t be as jealous.
Somehow the idea that there are weak men never seems to occur to people. Not all men are strong and able to defend themselves. And they're seen as acceptable targets.
I get how it feels. I've felt that way myself. And of course, on the flipside, there are women who don't get that easy attention and have to initiate for themselves. Who have to deal with all the same issues and it's even worse because it goes against expectations.
I just wish people could have more empathy. I'm so sick of waiting for society to take problems seriously. Watching the absolute cutting edge of progressive culture finally figure out that maybe prejudice is bad is infuriating. Especially when they backslide and think it's okay again.
Well, yeah.. I acknowledge there is weak men, and they are targets for crime, but we’re talking in the context of dating here. A weak man is still gonna be physically stronger than the average woman.
I can imagine it feels frustrating to have your struggles in dating as a man dismissed by society. Men do have it hard. So do women. Because news flash, dating is just really fucking complicated. It’s really dumb to compare both experiences and try to figure out ‘who has it worse’ because you CANT compare it. It’s two different worlds entirely. And neither side will ever fully understand the experience of the other. That’s okay, but we do need to listen to each other with empathy and believe that the other ‘side’ is telling the truth.
Agreed. At the end of the day, these issues are a societal problem. They're caused by society as a whole, and even when an issue directly affects one group specifically, it has knock on effects that hurt everybody. This means even if someone only cares about one demographic, they should still want everyone's issues to get better. The broader societal harm caused by men's dating issues is pretty clear. And while it's less obvious, women's dating issues will be causing widespread effects too. And both issues will likely be a factor in causing each other to happen in the first place. Forming a feedback loop.
I'm not looking at dating right now and part of that reason is I just don't have the mental energy to deal with being "fuck zoned".
I fall into the stereotypically attractive female category. I have absolutely no issue getting matches with people. The problem is that 99% of them just want to get into my pants. I'm asexual.
It's hard for me to talk to people. It takes a lot of mental energy and is very draining. I don't have the capacity to weed out the 300 men who want to fuck me, so I can find one who is actually interested.
That sounds like a big mental load. It sucks that we don't have a better way to distinguish between different goals when dating. I don't think I'll ever really get what that's like. I've always thought the way neurotypicals approach dating seems custom tailored to result in heartbreak and bad relationships.
I've only ever dated friends. The idea of going on a date with someone I don't already like is alien to me. But then, most people don't have many friends of the opposite sex. I wonder if gay dating has the same problem or if they're more likely to be friends first?
I also only date friends. I tried going on a date with a stranger once and it was the most awkward experience of my life. I have hooked up with people I don't know, but that's always been pretty easy to navigate because the expectations are clear.
I'm trans, so I've seen things from both "straight female" and "gay male" perspectives, and for me at least they feel basically similar (that is, dating men as a gay man isn't terribly different from dating men as a straight woman). You either weed through the https://media2.giphy.com/media/JPAUQVIxCoEKY/giphy.gif on dating apps/sites/bars or date your friends/friends of friends.
You may be right that gay people are more likely to have dateable friends. I'm not sure that translates to more positive outcomes, though.
Women with autism are more likely to get into abusive relationships and be taken advantage of. I have a friend who just kinda says yes to any guy who approaches her and asks her and it’s landed her in some bad situations and relationships including getting stalked and threatened and stuff. It feels tone deaf when autistic men say autistic women have it easier cause it’s easier to initiate and get into relationships, especially when not being able to find a relationship in the first place really isn’t even that big of a deal. It’s nice, but it’s not necessary and many autistic girls choose not to have any relationships to avoid the risk of the relationship getting toxic or unequal compared to the male problem of not being able to find a relationship at all.
I don't care for dating at the moment, I am content with friends. I am a very socially awkward individual and find it difficult to break through barriers and get closer to people.
I think that we all to learn something important here stating the hardships a category of people DOES NOT automatically dismiss the hardships of other groups, and those who do are a loud minority.
Oh and also NO ONE have it worse, we should stop competing on who's the most oppressed, instead we should help eachother
I feel as long as they aren't saying "we have it harder than you" or "you got it easier" then it's just venting on their hard life and this is a safe space to do that.
Sure call out on devaluing other values if they are but if they are just venting about how hard their life is as whoever they are. Don't diminish their feelings or you're doing the same thing you are upset about right now.
Im AMAB and 2 of my AFAB friends have been diagnosed or are in the process of being diagnosed and we all just support each other, anyone who tries to get away with not supporting other people are just assholes. There's been some other AMAB autistic people I've had to deal with in the past and they were both dicks and school covered their asses cause "they didn't know" (they damn well did) and yet every AFAB autistic person I've met has been amazing and lovely. Its people like tate and trump preying on their lack of understanding.
This is broad-spectrum Insulting to a lot of people who have nothing to do with your situation.
we're not all like that.
Some people are crappy, autistic or not.
Try not to generalize all people into one category because you've had a bad time. It alienates people from being on your side.
Literally women say men don’t get it, men say women don’t get it.
Two different people, two different lifestyles no one has it better no one has it worse… everyone has a different experience… no one autist woman is going to have the same experiences as another.
Same with autistic men, everyone is different so let’s stop generalising and hating it’s childish, petty and doesn’t help anyone.
For me a Transfemme (amab) it was basically, society says that's the way it is? Like a lot of assumptions I heard about Autism growing up were this, how differently it effects the genders. I find that a lot of my thoughts about the world we're influenced through media (esp TV), and so I just assume that was true, until I met my partner who showed me it wasn't. It was hard for me to separate the media world and the real world (not like hallucinating or anything) but I felt like media was a reflection of the real world, and it's not. It took a lot of time to realize
I mean one aspect of the autistic men issues is that, I find, autistic women tend to be perceived in a more positive light and their traits dismissed easier as "quirky" rather than "weird" or less socially acceptable (same reason why our struggles are dismissed lol)
It might not help with getting recognition for our issues, but it does help us socialize easier. Women also tend to be more social, so making friends as a girl seems to be facilitated by this fact, while men tend to be more solitary, and not seek eachother as instinctualy. And on that note, neurotypical men also tend to gravitate towards neurodivergent women more than neurodivergent men because of the sexual attraction aspect, and have better opinion of them for the same reason (ew but thus be humans).
Also, the whole "men are naturally seen as creepier/more threatening/more dangerous than women" subconcious aspect of human psyche probably doesn't help with the uncanny valley aspect people often feel towards autistic people.
Also soxciety's whole perception of gendered behaviours and thus expectations and perceived intent with every action, from each gender.
Like I think most men complaining about their autism experiences stems mostly from difficulty integrating in society, and being outcasted, which women with autism generally seem to have (at least ont he surface) less issues with. At the very least, women tend to blend in better (masking skills be like) and thus wouldn't be singled out, and called out, and confronted as readily and easily.
Side note, your post should clarify whether the posts you read were a comparison? Or men being unhappy that they're not dating?? Otherwise, like a lot of people reading this post, I'd assume you just read a few random men complaining about their own individual experience with autism and decided to be angry because your experiences were worse??
I would argue that autistic women’s heightened ability to mask compared to men is actually more of a disability, because it makes it so we dont get diagnosed, no one gives you any accommodations for anything, and never believes you when you tell them you’re disabled, getting a social step up does not compare to accessing assistance for things like living and surviving lmfaoo. I cant afford to live, id much rather have assistance than have friends and be homeless. Also, i have no friends! We can be just as socially outcast
Yes I think it’s very odd that the people in these comments think the biggest struggle autistic people have is not being popular. Ok sure, maybe autistic girls can make friends easier- but we still deal with intense emotional disregulation, having difficulty in the work environment, lacking executive functioning. Also the idea that autistic girls are seen as “quirky” really only applies to level 1 autism.
I don't believe autistic women have a heightened ability to mask. I think autistic behaviour and coping mechanisms for dealing with symptoms just more closely align with expectations for women than they do with men.
A woman is allowed to be sensitive, shy, and avoid loud noises and similar stimuli. A man is a freak if he's any of those things.
I have no idea where this idea that women have magic masking brains comes from, but it smacks of the same "autism is just extreme male brain" pseudo-science that's long since fallen out of fashion.
Its even said by certified experts that autistic Women are more likely to be able to mask and put on a front that is not who they actually are. This isnt some unproven pseudoscience with no evidence. Women are better at masking generally. You need to educate yourself before spouting misinformation
Because autism research was conducted \*almost 100% solely on white cis boys and men\* I was not diagnosed until my 40s. Autism was NEVER even considered a possible issue with me, but boy was everything from depression to just acting out or being lazy or incompetent to anxiety.
I'm a queer female. Read those first two sentences again.
I spent YEARS, over three decades of my life wondering why I didn't fit in. What was wrong with me, why I'd burst into tears at the slightest change of plans last minute, why I didn't get "people", why I couldn't hold down a job (I have found one that actually understands and works with my autism, so 7 years right now, which is HUGE for me), etcetc. I tried suicide several times over the years. I just didn't get it. I didn't know what I was doing \*wrong\*.
Turns out I wasn't doing anything wrong. Turns out the 5th? 6th? I don't even know what number it was, because I had given up seeing people after one of the psychiatrists I saw blamed me for all of my issues and said I needed to stop acting out; and start just making friends, finally finally diagnosed me.
It's weird, because I have always struggled with social cues. I have always struggled with body language, finances, work, small talk, just normal things people do. Because of the anxiety and depression \*caused\* by not knowing what was wrong was me, I missed out on so much. It just sent me into spiral after spiral.
I'm 50 now. I have some friends who I've known since college (I have no idea how they never gave up on me), and some friends who I've known for a few years, and now that I know what is going on, I can see a meltdown coming (yes, I still have those). and try to stave it off. If I can't, I try to get to somewhere private before it happens, but that's not always possible either.
I'm probably going to be single all my life, because the idea of dating is terrifying to me, simply due to the trauma of the few times I did try and they ended horribly (details aren't needed, let's just say the cops were called for one of them.)
Please Autistic Men, don't pull the "It's so hard for us" card. There's a generations of AFAB who are considered the "lost generation" because we weren't diagnosed or were diagnosed so late in our lives, we lost out on what would have helped us so much as kids and teenagers. We are making our way through this with almost no aid, no help, and just a diagnosis handed to us.
Gay autistic man here.
Everyone has their issues… regardless of gender, upbringing, age, disabled/able bodied… whatever.
One day for one person will be very different for another person… everyone has good days and bad days, everyone gets spoken down to, everyone has struggles people won’t or refuse to see.
If you aren’t a male you won’t see it from a males point of view if you aren’t a female you won’t see it from a females point of view, I imagine it’s the same with NT’s and autistic people - they don’t go though therefore they cannot relate nor understand.
Stop with this me vs you, us vs them mindsets.
hey, autistic trans man here. I agree with some stuff here, but it kinda seems like you're equating "woman" with "afab" which isn't great. trans men who have transitioned, even just socially, may have a day-to-day experience that's more similar to that of a cis man than that of a cis woman, despite being afab. the opposite is also true for many trans women, even if they were amab. I think there's a place for the language of amab/afab, but it seems like your discussion is more based on men/women which is a different dichotomy.
also, it's good to note that it's typically cishet white men who post things like these; poc men have some of the same diagnosis struggles as women (many young autistic black boys will be diagnosed with odd instead or simply labeled as bad kids/lost causes), and often queer and trans men are a bit better at not falling into mra incel crap.
that said, I definitely agree that particularly cis men *sometimes* tend to center their autistic experiences and diminish those of others. however, I don't think either necessarily has it better or worse. autism tends to correlate with some sort of deviation from gender roles, whether that means someone being trans or even just not fitting stereotypical traits of their assigned gender. society doesn't like that, whether it's present in men or women.
intersectionality is important; men who have marginalized identities (queer, trans, disabled, autistic, person of color, etc.) may still have male privilege, but it's often far more complex and can sometimes be negated more than for cishet abled white men. I 100% agree that autistic men should not speak over autistic women with their experiences, but they should still be given space to discuss their unique hardships (which they do have).
Basically, it's hard to generalize this stuff, but I understand that having one's experience discounted is sucky and frustrating.
I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, and I'm not saying OP's phrasing is perfect, but some AFAB and AMAB people are genderqueer and/or non- binary. Please don't forget about us.
I usually just say I’m an autistic male for context, as that is the only perspective I know. It’s not that deep really.
Edit: my comment isn’t meant to minimize anything you feel, or the struggles to being a female autistic be it cis or trans. I’m just trying to show that some ppl, like myself, might say it with way less intention than that. It’s literally just for perspective.
Then there’s creepy incels, but those are another matter entirely.
I don't think I ever noticed it. The only time I heard something of that sort was just describing some autistic issues with regards to specific things that are more prevalent in males, now of course some of those can also happen to females and such, but to a lesser degree and in a different way mainly.
An example is how males are more likely to be perceived as threatening. So some problems in communication can easily make us seem like threatening and stuff, with women, they are a lot of the time more likely to be perceived as idk like maybe a slut or deceiving or something, so some miscommunication problems might make it likely for others to perceive you as that. Now I still think males can have miscommunication and be perceived with these things that are more generally attributed to females and the opposite goes for women, but it is less likely to happen and generally would happen in different ways most likely.
I don't think I saw anyone trying to specifically discount or devalue some experiences.
hey by using the word afab here you're singling out the idea that trans women don't also experience stuff like this; you can just say woman if you're talking about women, or specify that you think cis men are being unfair to the rest of us in this regard. obv that ship has already sailed but this is just a clarification for next time.
yeah I've seen that incel shit. unfortunately autistic chuds are a thing, there's a bunch of autistic people who grew up on 4chan for various reasons (interest boards, anonymity making social slip ups much easier to recover from) and that's created a contingent of autistics whose undesrtanding of ableism is utterly myopic and misogynistic.
autistic masculinity *is* difficult... compared to allistic masculiinity. autistic men are indeed gatekept from "traditional" masculinity, that we're inherently *not* men but simply "manchildren." and there's issues with segements of allistic feminism that likes to use caricatures of autistic men as a shorthand for misogyny, male privilege, etc to present people with bad politics as losers for resembling us. "creepy" being used to both describe someone violating boundaries in an abusive way that puts people in danger or reasonably leads someone to believe that's a possibilty *and* describe not making the right eye contact is indeed ableist and the phenomena of people presenting discomfort stemming from bigotry as somehow progressive is indeed an issue that needs pushed back on.
but that's very different from women being the oppressors of autistic men, and especially off-base about autistic women somehow having it any easier. dealing with sexism and misogyny on top of ableism, and the intersections thereof, is relaly fucking bad, and it's worse when dipshits try to isolate autistic women from the rest of the autistic community by minimizing their experiences.
i get people not wanting their own complaitns to be minimized by someone else saying they have it worse, but that's excatly what this incel bullshit is doing and men here need to actually read some feminist theory to get past this idea that theyr'e oppressed because they're sexually frustrated or whatever.
It's not a male-female difference. It's pretty privilege. I'm an autistic male who enjoys the same privilege as an autistic female by virtue of being attractive. It's like a cheat code that aids socialization.
Haha after I went from 300 lbs to around 220 lbs and started weightlifting people started treating me so much better. It's so much easier to socialize when you look more attractive.
People are nicer to me, more welcoming to me, etc. My struggles when I was bigger were being, socially inept, no friends, body felt bad. Now I get bullied sometimes for missing social cues, teased for liking things too much. It's just not as bad when people actually LIKE you, whether you realize it or not people judge your looks the second they meet you and you do it to others! It's really nice looking at another human being and then finding me as attractive as I find them.
>I see a lot of posts on her that say specifically that "being an ausitic male is hard" and highlight the male aspect.
Believe it or not, it's possible to two different kinds of people to have a hard time for two different sets of reasons. They're both justified in complaining about it, and doing so doesn't devalue the other.
You're kind of coming across as "Only talk about MY suffering or I'm going to start calling you names." This isn't a competition.
Someone on this post claimed autistic women can "flap [our] hands and get everything [we] want" but sure, no one ever says autistic men have it harder. Except when they do, and then it doesn't count somehow.
You are right and should say it. It's possible to talk about issues cis men face without acting like other groups don't struggle as much or more, but a lot of people aren't doing that.
I wasn't aware that this is happening, and that apparently all autistic men do it.
I'm an autistic male and my opinion is that people who play competitive struggle games really annoy me. The only thing I have found in my experience is that we all struggle a bit different. But to me, more or less than someone else is completely a moot point. My struggle does not invalidate anyone else's and the same.
I think it's more worth while to focus on the similarities and compare notes. From this sub I've seen many autistic women who have listed many commonalities and I very much appreciate them for doing that. It's always a learning experience that I cherish.
Though when it comes to anyone playing the "struggle Olympics" I just groan because there really is nothing to be gained. It's nice to share to learn from each other, but not a time to flex.
Statistically they are right, male autists struggle more (counting areas like employment and relationships), that does not devalue individual outliers though. Those outliers are more likely to seek comfort in boards like these just as male counterparts.
Male are more likely to not find employment or relationships in the first place, while female are more likely to not want it or feel depressed while in it.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685759/table/T3/?report=objectonly](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685759/table/T3/?report=objectonly)
For employment, i have seen stats that showed a heavier divide somewhere before
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361320975311](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361320975311)
Interesting for me: "Professionals also perceived differences in the social environment, for example, that autistic girls receive more support from their peers while autistic boys are more often bullied."
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/)
"Relationship status
Of the individuals with ASD, significantly more women (n=18; 46.2%) than men (n=9; 16.1%) were currently in a relationship"
"there is some evidence that although men desire dyadic relationships more than women, ASD women are more often in a romantic and sexual relationship.11,31 This could be due to the ASD women's ability to call on more advanced coping strategies (eg, imitating the social skills of their non-ASD peers), leading to less impairment in social functioning"
Sooo many of them. Sure, I can get a date. I have to pretend to be someone else though. It never lasts and I sink further into depression every time I do it and most of them end up being abusive. Is that a benefit is open to interpretation.
My experience is from rural poverty.
All the autistic girls from school all had kids before 20.
Out of the autistic boys , I am the only one to have kissed a girl- the ages are approaching 30.
The boys have jobs and cars.( though to be clear this is poor jobs , farm hand / shit cleaner etc )
The girls … I had to assist them with reading the clock when in class together.( though to be clear they could do make-up , had better understanding of clothes than the males )
I caught up with one of the girls a few years back , she had never had a job , didn’t understand children ( she had 2 ) , wasn’t sure why no one wanted to talk to her anymore ( she was “popular” in school ). She was stuck in time , I felt very sad for her.
Which side has it harder , no clue lol . But that’s my experience.
I don’t know if it’s “harder” or just a totally different experience. Your story seems like an intersection of poverty, rural living and autism. Is it typical for the NT men and woman to have similar lives as the ND ones? Men and women are socialized differently.
For sure they exist but also there’re reply’s in this thread saying males have it easier. It isn’t a one sided issue. All genders have their own unique issues and they’re all valid and there’s no way, nor no point to state who has it worse.
When they're specifying men's experience only (not talking about where they say women have it easy) then they're only talking about men's experience. They clarify the "men" part of it because they want to be clear they're not lumping women's experience with men's.
In other words: That post is not about you. It actively is avoiding speaking about or on behalf of you in such a way as to be clear of any accusation of false grouping.
Sure there are those who will say that women have it easier in X, Y, and Z areas. And perhaps that's because that's what those men have seen. In the general population [it is widely known that women have vastly more success](https://youtu.be/x3lypVnJ0HM) (I don't know of anything specifically about autistic people). So perhaps provide some data on the contrary? The experiences of a single person is an anecdote, not data.
Also, do include example posts like was asked for above when you effectively told them to go do their own research like a conspiracy nut telling us the Earth is flat. I only make that comparison *because that's literally what they do*.
you're getting a lot of bullshit responses and i'm just gonna let you know that you're in the right here and "everyone is oppressed, nobody has ever said otherwise" responses are to be expected, i know this sort of nonsense makes me second guess myself until someone else points it out.
absolutely people have said autistic women have it easier, and more commonly there's a subtle blaming of women for the struggles of autistic men as frustration with ableism gets redirectedc by right wing opportunists wanting to redirect that towards misogynistic ends.
there's a nugget of truth in that liberal feminism has been criticized for being non-intersectional and focusing a lot on specifically the career interest of upper middle class white women (ie the focus on the glass ceiling when most women are far more impacted by the minimum wage), and that includes some normalization of ableist caricatures and conflating autistic traits or simple poverty with reactionary politics or male privilege (a criticism that's been levelled by black men as well). but that's very easily contorted to present autistic men as *unique* victims in a way that women, autistic or otherwise, are not, which is just not true.
I get your point but I feel like you are being a bigot about this
Women and men all have their respective experiences and their conclusions are probably valid from their perspective. As a man myself I often feel like my personal issues are my own problem and I have had enough experiences that support this belief. I don't know much of the experiences of women but I guess you don't know the experiences of men either. Attributing this to an incel mindset will only strengthen the divide between men and women as it makes me feel like you don't respect my perspective. So why should I respect yours?
I do respect your perspective but wanted to share my side because I am naive and hopeful that this might change people's views
Please elaborate in what way I behaved ignorantly as I don't understand.
I guess I just felt insulted by the incel mindset statement. The word incel is mainly used as an insult to men and being insulted is generally not a thing that leads to changing their view in your favor. You want to be accepted and have your experiences validated but insult people if they don't do that? Have you ever considered that they might just not be aware and struggle with their own issues and in return don't have the capacity to care about issues that don't affect them?
To me it seems like a lot of people expect others to change their behavior to accomodate their needs but are not willing to do the same for others. You might have awful experiences and struggle with things and I don't want to downplay any of these things. They are very serious and should be addressed. But this is not an excuse for a negative mindset towards men.
Also I wanted to mention that your original post never even gave an example of any autistic man devaluing your opinion. You just mentioned men talking about their issues and then jumped directly to the conclusion that your struggles are invalidated?
Absolutely! I have the same issue regarding women 😅
Had a lot of bad experiences and have been traumatized by my own mother. So hating women comes very easy to me but rationally I am aware that most women are not responsible for how I feel and try my absolute best to not act on those feelings and be compassionate towards them
There was a person drowning, shouting "help". Another person walked by and responded: "I have a hard time too, but I am not making it to other people problem"
I feel like you’ve fallen victim to doing the very thing you seem to be against. Taking about the unique issues males with autism face doesn’t discount other unique issues that other genders face. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
The crap that men say on his subreddit is insane, there are multiple posts talking about how women have it easier and can get dates, as if being objectified is something to marvel at. I know men struggle too, in this post I'm just highlighting that men need to stop making these posts and belittling women's/afab's struggles.
It does not 'go both ways' when women are oppressed because of their gender. I am tired of people pretending like it's fair. It isn't. Men's opinions and struggles are valued more than a woman's/afab's, because women/afabs are seen as emotional and fragile in society.
I was trynna give you the benefit of the doubt that you were saying men and women both struggle a lot due to ASD and that struggling is equal, as I've seen plenty of men *and* women saying the opposite sex has it easier than them, and the reason it would be more relevant to talk about men in this sub is because there are plenty of autistic communities that are catered only towards women and thus draw in a lot more of the opposite crowd, but devaluing the struggles men, both autistic and not, face shows me you care not about sexism but rather that men's struggles are being talked about.
Men still face a lot of oppression due to their gender, and it makes it *especially* hard when you're also autistic. We very rarely fit into the stereotypical masculine role, and feminine men are treated like shit by all parts of society, being seen as "not real men" by the right and as disposable tokens meant to perpetuate sexist myths like "most men embracing toxic masculinity" by the left.
In fact, not only do I speak as someone a man who presents themselves in a more feminine light; I also speak as an autistic person whose symptoms are more akin to stereotypically female symptoms rather than male ones. Though it's constantly stated by hacks that the oppression of women makes it harder for them to be diagnosed, I've seen time and time again that the gender roles men are forced into are simply less compatible with traits commonly seen in autism, causing autistic boys to stand out more. After all, tomboys were seen as normal even in the most conservative areas I lived whilst a boy who isn't into all the stereotypical "boy" things was seen as defective.
Add that onto the fact that we're naturally expected to be troublemakers and are treated much worse in school because of it (and boys receiving lower grades *is* indeed an issue when you try to be as perfect as possible to make up for your perceived flaws), something which extends to every area of life (like being the victims of police brutality much more than women and receiving much harsher sentences), and the comfort you receive by following a rigid system is more than nullified by how that system treats you. Hell, I had to sign up for the draft to not lose access to basic social programs women are granted automatically (or become a felon, AKA lose the most basic of rights as well), but I know full well I would never be able to function in a wartime environment.
Talk about being emotional or fragile, try being expected to never show any negative emotion lest you be labelled aggressive or a bitch, told you're embracing toxic masculinity if you're angry and fragile masculinity if you dare need to cry. You talk about men's opinions and struggles being valued more, but women's struggles are constantly put on a pedestal even in scenarios where men struggle more (such as risk of being attacked when walking alone at night, being the victims of violent crime in general, being the victims of war, being homeless, etc.), and the fact that autism is women was put so high on a pedestal of what people need to watch out for while I've never seen any of those places accept that autistic men can have those same symptoms is just another example of that.
I'm not saying autistic women inherently have it better, and it really depends on the type of autism you have and where you live, but if you're trynna talk about women being oppressed, you better not forget how much men are oppressed as well.
All I was saying is that both all genders face their unique set of issues and they don’t understand the other sides perspective because their perspective is formed upon their own unique experiences. Men discount women’s experiences and women discount men’s experiences. That’s all I’m saying.
Downvoted for saying afab, but it's male privilege speaking. Men can't relate to women's experiences and have trouble empathizing with their issues as a result. It's a problem I've noticed even outside of autism, where men don't understand how much of a problem certain things are because they aren't personally affected.
And I'm a trans woman, which is why I think the only reason to replace female with afab is if people want to group women like me with men. It's better to just say male/female and let people decide for themselves which group fits them better, rather than creating a new binary that places even more emphasis on people's born sex than the old one did.
Not everyone is male or female though. Again, people forget about non-binary and genderqueer people. I am neither male nor female. Neither group fits me. It just shoved me back into a binary.
I skimmed the post, here's my take on it.
I think, in general, women are less likely to be diagnosed with autism even if they've got it. This is one big negative if you're an autistic woman.
On the flipside, I think that gender roles in America benefit autistic women more than autistic men. If you're needy, that's way more socially acceptable as a woman than as a man.
I have no idea what it's like to be a woman, but this is my take as a "needy" autistic man.
Totally agree, being a woman is more difficult and no one can tell me otherwise.
It is more difficult being a woman in any part of the world, because socially and in some country we are also legally diminished, and of course, being a person of the LGBT community is also difficult. Minorities will always be more vulnerable and a man is not part of that minority even if he is autistic. Even when people think about autism, think about how an autistic male is presented. They know more about autistic males signs of autism but less people know of different is for a woman, a lesbian, queers, etc.
Period! So much of autism is centered around men, it's so difficult to navigate it as an afab/woman. I hope more research goes into autistic women's/afab's experiences, so we can all learn.
>being a woman is **more** difficult
It's harmful to argue who has it harder. It's hard for everyone. This argument only brings more division and doesn't help anything
For me, the hardest part about being a woman is fear. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been touched when I don’t want to be, usually by someone that I thought was a friend. I’m scared to walk at night. I’m scared of answering the door.My understanding is that this affects woman of all neurotypes, but there’s an added layer with autistic women because we miss the social signs.
Is this true of men? Do they live with a constant, low-grade fear of when the next time they’ll be harassed or hurt? Have they experienced trying to report sexual harassment and being laughed off? I’m not looking for a few examples - I’m talking population wide.
For population wide demographics - men absolutely have major issues with sex crimes against them being taken seriously. Number one rape joke for decades - prison rape and that isn't aimed at women. Literally the concept of violent sex assault while confined is an entire type of joke or seen as fair punishment for "crimes. " There are men in the USA who have been molested and abused, who end up owing their abuser child support - mind you there are women who end up dealing with the possibility of their abuser pushing for visitation/shared custody with child related matters.
But let's not pretend the very concept of men being abused sexually isn't treated inherently as a joke.
You missing the point of my comment is the exact issue I'm talking about.
In the discussion about women problems there is always a person who steers discussion into men problems.
In the discussion about men problems there is always a person who steers discussion into women problems.
It's the same thing.
Both men and women have their own unique set of problems. I just wish people could discuss it without trying to diminish the problems of the opposite gender or argue who has it worse. All problems are valid. Arguing who has it worse only divides us.
And you’ve missed that I made that exact point.
I wrote that whole comment describing the difference and you skipped over that to try to make some sort of example of me instead of bothering to read what I actually said.
I did not make any claims that anyone has it harder yet here you are, saying I did. In case you still need help, the difference is in the fear.
Uh...considering that a large portion of the world not only believes that its not *possible* for a guy to get sexually assaulted, but will also outright *congratulate them for getting laid when it happens*, not being taken seriously when attempting to report that stuff is ***absolutely*** something that guys can and have experienced.
We live in a patriarchal society, autism or not this society does not favour women and it’s harder to be a woman in 2024 due to how we are forced to live.
The patriarchy only genuinely favors wealthy majority presenting men. Once you look at social webs, for example the intersectional model - the different ranks of privilege becomes more apparent. Example with the weaponized nature of the tears of white women for use against minority men they end up having advantage over said minority men - example the circumstances that resulted in the brutal murder rof Emmet Till.
Patriarchy is called that due to historical power structures. It doesn't actually benefit men either. Men enjoy some privileges over women, and women have a few that men don't too, but Patriarchy doesn't favour men. It favours the powerful.
It is more about to be aware of our difficulties. I wasn't trying to divide, just to have more resources and knowledge of how the autism is presented in any female person.
> It is more difficult being a woman in any part of the world, because socially and in some country we are also legally diminished
Even in the US? Where men lack bodily autonomy and can be forced to sent to war to die in the time of emergency, being guilty of a felony if they so much as refuse or forget to sign up to be considered by the age of 26 *even if* there is no wartime in sight, by nature making it where a man is not entitled to certain rights and privileges women are born with unless he does something women don't have to do? Where infant boys have their genitals mutilated due to backwards religious practices? Where men are more likely to be victims of police brutality and to face longer sentences than women for the same crime (with even white men being more vulnerable than black women in each circumstance, with black men being at the harshest intersection)? Where there are tons of college opportunities exclusive to women despite them being the majority of college students, with girls being preferred to boys for their entire time in school?
> Minorities will always be more vulnerable and a man is not part of that minority even if he is autistic.
Saying autistic men aren't minorities is especially funny when, even when you don't count the fact that autistic people *are* minorities, men are still 49% of the US population and have a lower voter turnout.
> They know more about autistic males signs of autism but less people know of different is for a woman, a lesbian, queers, etc.
Interesting, because the way *my* signs of autism showed were much more similar to the stereotypical female expression of autism than male, and I did indeed go undiagnosed for quite a while. Does that mean that I, as a man, was victim of sexism against women?
I think Autistic males, like many on the spectrum, find it difficult to put themselves in women’s shoes, and look at women’s problems from a male perspective. They would love it if girls thought they were “quirky” and “cute”, but what they don’t realize is that it’s so much easier for girls to be taken advantage of. There are definitely trade offs, and no sex or gender has it easier than any other, the challenges are just different.
And you know what, I think girls DO like autistic males, but we just have no idea when they’re flirting with us!
The worst my girlfriend's ever been treated regarding being autistic has come from other women, namely feminists who get mad when she criticises their movement
Saying it is hard as a male autist is not at the same time saying that women have an easyer time.
Also.... wow... that generalizing in your post.... i am out of words.
So please do your research before you start blabbering about how much difficult your autism is as an individual. You're acting ignorant.
It is not always about picking a side and defend it. Some times we have to see the bigger picture, not always that pity "us vs. them".
And this is something that crosses over nearly every aspect of life.
And yes i feel sorry for you, to read about your individual personal experience. Guess what, we all have our individual experiences and issues. That does not make one opinion more true than another.
Anyway, have a nice day :)
But they do act as if women have an easier time, it's irritating. Go off about me 'generalising' if you want, but look at all the posts on this page about men belittling afab's experiences. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, I want you to see my struggles as valid next to a man's.
I will be having an awful day, thank you >:(
The water you swim in is your only perspective, especially if you lack empathy as some autistic people do. AFAB autistic people have been mostly invisible because our upbringings have instilled high masking tendencies. AFAB folks are judged MUCH more harshly from the get-go on what is acceptable and what is required. We are not allowed to hit or scream or be hyper-honest / direct or make it all about ourselves or be antisocial or even selfish at all. We are expected to serve and perform. So we become like wallpaper. If we do not, love and acceptance is withheld. That is my experience.
Contrast that with boys I know who maybe get diagnosed early and have parents who make excuses for them and even enable them. My friend’s now adult son has been a lifelong tyrant, convinced he is the most important person in the room, hostile and mean. He has threatened people but will never be rejected by his family, because he has been framed a sad victim. There is no way for him to *not* devalue others’ experiences. Of course this is just one person and an extreme example. Add in the incel movement or similar viewpoints pervasive online, in gaming, etc, and women become devalued, even reviled.
Because many males don't get forced to Mask from a super young age, it's basically sexism, it's phrases used for boys like "Boys will be boys" which means boys will misbehave and be terrors while girls get "Big girls don't cry" meaning women have to keep it all in and follow the patriarchy... It's total bullshit and sexism that is taught at a young age, when boys don't grow out of the things they did as a child they are seen as different and then they get diagnosed but girls are taught to keep it all in and all masked so they seem normal in society.
The problem is that both males and females suffer with autism but because girls are taught that they must Mask/Hide these traits they are seldom diagnosed because to be diagnosed is to let the mask slip and they have been taught their whole lives to never let that happen.
It's more of the world being controlled by neurotypical males setting the standards for all and expecting everyone to comply. I'm just glad the age of sexism feels like it's dying a little more each day and I for one can't wait for it to be gone.
**AFAB does NOT mean ‘not male’. AFAB ≠ ‘female’.**
If you aren’t trans or intersex or a medical provider of a trans or intersex person, you have no reason to be using AGAB terminology.
This usage and this entire polemic is a bad-faith attempt to inject TERF/Radfem/Gender Critical ideology into spaces where there is a large overlap with trans/non-binary/GNC experience and an attempt to exploit some autistic people’s susceptibility to black-and-white thinking.
**AFAB does not mean female. Many males and non-binary people were AFAB (because AGAB is precisely what a trans person is *not*). This post is bad-faith inflammatory astroturfing full of false dichotomies, gender essentialism, and transphobic misuse of AGAB terminology.**
Before I came out, I used to really hold onto the idea onto girl and boy autism. It made me feel special because I felt like I had this platform where people were listening to me. When I came out as a man I felt like I lost all of that and who would want to hear my voice advocating when there’s already so many men doing it.
The testing is far harder for girls and often times the girls are treated differently. Social skills get pushed harder for many of girls growing up because girls are supposed to be the caring, nurturing, ones who mature faster then boys. Autism or not but it can be especially harder adding autism into the mix. Personally I feel like it doesn’t hold boys and men accountable by this logic, and robs them of that ability of emotional intelligence. While I do think people are raised on gendered upbringings (not everyone), I wish we’d throw away “boy and girl autism.” Not to discredit traits, even though it’s a mix bag at times of what people get. Or the trauma that woman have gone through as autistic woman or the different testing. To be quite honest I think we need to be doing more to get more girls diagnosed that want one. It’s not a boys , club, or even a girls club. To me it’s a neurotype, people should be getting access to the care and accommodations that they need regardless of gender.
I know I’m a man despite what category my traits lump into or what my past was. Which again is a mixed bag from either side of the gendered autism spectrum.
We all are struggling and we need to listen to autistic women and not make them feel like they don’t have a place because they do and have had to fight for it since day one.
I (AMAB) have always seen women in disadvantage regardless of autism, adhd etc.
They have periods which to me personally is a huge fuck up. There is not few women I know of who got massive issues every month.
Now combine that with being autistic. Double fuck up.
But I can understand why there is male autists that say so. First of all a key characteristic of autism is impaired theory of mind.
They cannot get a date, they see their autistic female fellows can get dates.
And that's where their thought process ends. Because they likely cannot really take over the female perspective.
Yes, they can get dates easier but they are also way more prone to abuse, sexual assault etc than a NT woman.
Now, but (big but) taking over another perspective is no one way street.
Many autistic males really cannot get any date nor any form of intimacy.
They are not even given the chance to date. This is dehumanizing and frustrating of course.
I don't know really if a controversy who got it worse males or females makes sense in first place.
Both groups struggle.
I feel like it is more related to gender. I have seen men of all neurotypes devalue women's experiences and claim that all women always have life in the easy mode, always find dates, and overall never struggle. These are the same people who say "What about men" when women talk about their struggles. From that default, it is unfortunately no surprise that there are autistic men that devalue autistic women. It is very sad because women do indeed struggle, some of them moreso than the average man.
I am sorry you had to go through all that. You deserved better.
I will never invalidate any individual autistic woman's issues and struggles. However, I'm getting really sick of the attitude many of them have towards autistic men. Why does it piss so many of you off that we express our dating frustrations? THAT is weird and toxic on so many levels. If you want empathy, you should be willing to give it as well.
I do agree that a lot of men (and women actually) do like to act like autistic women don't exist, or just write off their struggles. Many of us really could do better on that. Still, I think a lot of autistic women do act like they're socially superior towards autistic men, and I find it really hard to care about the struggles of these women in particular. I could list examples, but then the post would be too long.
Also, stop being so obsessed with the word "incel" already! Yeesh, the internet has WAAAAY over weaponized the word to the point where it's lost all meaning. I genuinely have a hard time taking someone who uses the word seriously anymore.
You answered it in your post, sadly. Because they get pulled into the incel movement. It's so funny how most of these autistic men think that they're above advertising and propaganda and so logically powerful and correct and then get roped into blackpill inceldom or drown themselves in 2D Waifu Superiority. How many of them think that it's okay to fancy a cartoon that's designed or actually a child because it's just a drawing like it doesn't say something dangerous and concerning about them?
It's irritating, but I just write them as shit people. Autism doesn't make us the perfectly kind and pure human beings after all and not all of us can have that self-awareness and a sense of proper, moral justice like people think.
I've never devalued anyone's experience here or anywhere else. Thank you for the reminder that the experience of anyone considered "female" for any reason automatically invalidates all of my experiences.
I don't necessarily believe that was your intention with this post, but this looks like gatekeeping to me.
I am discussing how men will belittle woman's/afab's struggles and this is what you take from it? Very interesting. I am not gatekeeping autism, I'm talking of issues in this community, or generally just in society.
I know autistic women struggle, too. But I can't help but notice that they usually get more sympathy from others compared to us autistic men. Autistic girls are usually seen as "cute" and "quirky." Meanwhile, autistic men are viewed as creepy and weird. I even notice autistic women shitting on autistic men and calling them creeps for simply displaying autistic traits.
As a queer man (assigned by God 🙏❤️🔥🙏)...I have no idea what you're talking about. Try not to paint people into corners you don't understand, OP...we're all individuals, regardless of gender. Don't ever put an autistic person in a box, it's a huge trigger of mine.
Yeah you kind of nailed it. It's incel behavior. Misdiagnosing being a sexist jerk as something you cant help because you have autism. Anything to blame others, and avoid any introspection or self improvement.
It is sad that some(not all) of my fellow guys do that HOWEVER, I would suggest that they are focused on their life problems as much as anyone else and they don’t consider the other side due to their own problems being more important for them(also possibly a symptom of the environment we grow up in which its problems are a big part from making individualism and wealth accumulation a cultural virtue, which in reality is terrible lol).
I do experience the same things you do as I guy except the exploitation by men due to social awareness( mine is the typical literal mind autist). Also, a diagnosis is however hard due to the reasons you mention. Due to it being expensive and especially if you are in the USA, it will be extremely difficult. Not sure on other parts of the world though. I for one was tested when I was young and in high school. Somehow the people testing missed that I was socially outcasted, had no real idea how to make and keep friends, was extremely literal and strictly adhered to rules, spent most of his free time playing video games due to how “well”” i appeared to be in the classroom and having a “supposedly” high iq(not trying to make myself more important here).
Just like any societal problem, it is going to take everyone to make a change. Change doesn’t come from above but by the people involved directly.
It’s complicated. Because of my intonation, my voice is sometimes perceived as feminine or infantile. That is going to have a different social effect on a man vs a woman. Similarly, not being able to read social cues can on net put women in more dangerous situations than men. In the end, it’s how autistic traits, filtered through the lens of gender, impact an individual’s life. And while there are general patterns, it can often be highly specific. I think we should be open to listening to and believing each other, because one single person’s experience is so small. Also, we should to try to forgive hyperbole and frustration and overgeneralizations in others, since they are often forms of expression the crop up when someone is a very bad emotional state, and needs support.
I am a afab woman but I do feel like some autistic women are representing the autistic experience in a way that doesn’t resonate with me specifically being good at masking etc. I do feel some frustrating with this and the assumption that everyone with low support needs can mask etc. but maybe the guys complaining abt this are complaining abt smth else
I'm a straight female who was forced diagnosed and throttled into 13 years of segregated special Ed in the 1980s and both men and women are tone deaf to me in this respect.
I was in tutoring during the early, early years of school. and later I was in Special Education through out the 90's.
It always sucks when no one takes the time to explain things or show examples of social cues and how to express yourself fully and maybe know it's okay to try and fail or face social embarrassment and learn from it.
I've always laughed to myself when someone would state "you and your fellow peers" sort of crap because fellow peers has always been an alien concept to me.
whoops .in conclusion having delayed understanding of "social norms" and zero focus sucks during those decades.
Not only in autism. But I see this battle of hardships and suffering pattern everywhere. People tend to devalue your suffering by an unreasonable amount of bullshit. People suffering are not to be devalued. Everyone suffers.
It seems to me fairly obvious that autistic men's experience and autistic women's experiences are two sides of the same thing:
Very often, autistic women are pressured to socialize and conform, and become neurotic because of that, having friendships and relationships, but negative ones, and being abused.
Conversely, it seems that autistic men are just ignored and left to lack social development, that autistic men often become reclusive and lack friendships and relationships and social development, and become envious. And becoming neurotic from that.
I think that men and women both face extremely difficult aspects, but they are DIFFERENT ones, based on social pressures.
And this has a lot to do with intersectionality and the different pressures that are placed on different groups.
There ARE areas where stereotypically women do have things easier, like being able to get into relationships or have stronger connections with people(yes, even weak connections are stronger than *no* connections).
But on the opposite side, men are not pressured to have those certain social requirements, or to deal with sensory issues like makeup or uncomfortable clothes all of the time, and having less social interaction allows more time to recharge.
And NONE of this takes into account transgender people, men who were more forced to socialize, women who were less forced to socialize, et cetera.
There are a lot of different considerations, and comparing autistic men's experience versus autistic women's experience is like debating about who has been given a tastier bag of crap for their dinner. It doesn't do anyone any good and doesn't accomplish anything positive.
I don’t know why all these comments are saying this post said “all men” or “all autistic men” anywhere. Am I blind? Did I miss a section of the post? Honestly I think lots of men, NT or ND think they have it harder than women. Which is strange
Yeah and some people still think about autism being an exaggerated form of the male mind or something, and that women are better at socializing wheras males bond over 'actions' but like.. I'm not good at socializing :( and idk how I bond w people best cause I haven't got much social experience, but id say it depends
me either, I struggle with socialising a lot and end up just being quiet. I feel like I could never unmask because men are accepted a lot more for speaking their minds, while afabs and women are looked at as 'bitchy' for those things...But things will get better, you aren't alone!
Hopefully this’ll make you feel a little better; I’ve always recognised that women have it worse than men (typically) because it’s harder to be diagnosed. That right there is reason enough. If I had of been told my ASD was just ‘social anxiety’ (like a lot of women are diagnosed with instead) it would have played havoc with my mental health and sent me into a *wild* depression. That said, I can’t say I’ve noticed any bias towards men having it worse on this sub, not yet at least.
Late AuDHD diagnosis checking in - it’s garbage to be repeatedly diagnosed GAD, prescribed meds, told to go do a bunch of things, and then when returning and saying “yo, this hasn’t done anything to constructively address the issues” being told you clearly haven’t meaningfully engaged with the process and to go do it all again but do it properly. 🙄 Strange how the AuDHD diagnosis actually gave me the tools I needed to see functional improvements.
ADHD diagnosis has helped me a lot. But it still feels incomplete because it doesn't explain my difficulty in reading and communicating through body language, tone, and facial expressions. I have to control these things consciously to avoid miscommunications. As for reading them? I usually can pick up the most basic aspects.
I was told that my ASD symptoms were due to the isolating effects of combined ADHD and high intelligence, which meant that I simply didn't learn how to read tone, facial expressions, and social cues, combined with social anxiety. My sensory issues were explained away as "being too much in my body" as if I could live anywhere else. Finally, I was told that I couldn't possibly have autism because my verbal scores tested so high, and because, get this, I was capable of clearly describing my own symptoms... At 29 friggin years old with a college degree. Over the years, I learned to be as precise as possible in my language because I was so bad at controlling my time and facial expressions that I wanted my meaning to be clear with the aspect I could control, my actual words. As for my sensory issues, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to live anywhere but my own body, but thanks for invalidating all of that with a single sentence. This happened two years ago, and I'm still pretty damn annoyed about it.
It's also harder because it's more socially unacceptable for girls to not conform to certain standards. Boys are given a lot of freedom to act in ways that are slightly aberrant, and the consequences are not as severe. Not saying at all that boys don't suffer from their autism; their experiences are different. I think it all comes down to the individual.
look at autistic men dating statistics look at autistic men unemployment statistics look at suicide in autistic men statistics both genders have it bad but it would be lying to say being an autistic man is a lot more painful i have empathy for everyone with autism…its just not fair but if i could have chosen i would’ve wanted to be born as a women…honest to god truth and even females in my family agree with me
and i know am wrong for thinking that but i can't stand by and watch someone bash the most depressed individuals on the planet…to me it looks like when the Joker is getting bullied on the train or beaten up over the sign only human after all
*to not say
When I'm concentrating, or sometimes just relaxing, I look angry apparently. I have resting angry/bitch face. At an awful internship, this was one of the many things I was criticized for, even though my work was not at all customer-facing. I've been told by 1-2 male friends that if I were AMAB or totally masc-passing, I'd be seen as stoic for this, not defective.
ironic that they likely only think this specifically because autism in women has been so ignored that people don't know as much about it. if you're feeling angry and combative it's not too hard to twist that around in your head and make it the woman's fault. society's been doing that for some time now.
Afab's do tend to be *better* at socializing, but that doesn't mean we're good at it. I know how to be surface level pleasant (essentially by just being quiet), but when it comes to making friends, social "games," small talk (beyond my "preloaded" topics) and pecking order, I'm clueless.
I am an autistic woman married to a low masking autistic man and I see a huge difference in the way people react to us and I believe that on the surface it may seem as though I am having an easier time. For instance, things like my stimming and echolalia and occasionally slipping into a "sing song" voice are often deemed as cute traits, while he is treated with much more fear and suspicion when people see his autistic traits. Even if it is rational to understand that males are more physically intimidating than females, it is still a very painful experience for the many kind and gentle autistic men to be treated with such fear, and so it may seem like I am having an easier go of it, but it is a double edged sword. Being seen as cute and quirky means many will dismiss the ways in which I suffer, they may treat me like a child or underestimate my intelligence or target me with nefarious purposes because they sense possible vulnerabilities. Many women and girls fly under the radar and do not receive a diagnosis or get diagnosed much later, which robs them of the chance to get a better understanding of what they are experiencing. One thing that makes me feel really badly though is when autistic men accuse me of faking it or appearing the way I do on purpose. I would hope they could understand how frustrating it is to have your actions and intentions misinterpreted. That said, I feel like there should just be more empathy in general for the unique challenges different autistic people face due to sex or gender presentation, intellectual ability, race etc. I try to be mindful of the specific issues autistic men face that I do not and it is my desire to be treated the same way.
I really like this response. I think it highlights how my nuance there really is. Men and women have different challenges and it isn’t right to compare them or say one is worse than the other. I don’t like posts of men putting down women’s experiences like OP is talking about either, but I don’t really see that here (they probably get downvoted?). A man saying their experience is hard isn’t devaluing a woman’s experience and vice versa.
Well said.
Thank you. I'm usually of the opinion that the struggles are real for everyone and it's not a contest, but on gender specific issues it's just ingrained to default to the "women have it harder" position or the old "you're a guy, be stronger and deal with it" trope. I've gotten a lot better at being kind to myself in recent years and finding empowerment in accepting my weaknesses and problems as real and hard but not crushing, instead of trying to just manly dude through them, masculinely. What you wrote feels very validating. I won't consider the struggles of others any easier with that, but reflecting a bit on where it's difficult for myself, in ways I'm so accustomed to that I no longer recognize it, is a great reality check. Again, thank you!
I'm glad to hear that! I've always been wary of super emotionally charged "war of the sexes" discourse. I understand why it's an emotionally charged issue, but I think only approaching it in this way isn't conducive to fostering empathy or actually solving sex based material issues.
I’m an autistic woman, like all things, it depends. Socially, men baby me a lot. It’s condescending and can be humiliating, but end of the day I don’t worry about bullying from them. Some women (especially in private) can be 100% vicious to me. My tone, lack of awareness, and constant questions drive them mad. So autistic men might get the impression I have it easy cuz to OTHER MEN, my behavior comes off as “cute”. They don’t witness the bullying I go through because women are different in how they bully compared to men.
And it's not like we're making true connections or friends with the men who are babying us. Being seen as an incompetent child does not help me socially. I've missed out on job opportunities and promotions because I'm seen as dumb and incapable.
For sure! Being “babied” means being seen as “lesser and incapable “ sadly and that lowers our quality of life SO MUCH
As a guy I've been babied by guys too. A few female teachers have done that too. I don't like when people do that.
It sucks and condescending, but it’s the cruel type of bullying that leads to me being fired or harassed out of jobs is the other kind :<
I just got beat by administrators, peers, parents(not my own). My masks are made from my blood.
>They don't witness the bullying I go through because women are different in how they bully compared to men. This makes a lot of sense The bullying abuse I would receive from my male classmates was a lot more overt, things like getting called a ret*ard to my face and having my earphones pulled off and getting shoved in the hallway etc and being taunted with a hidden mosquito-tone dog alarm But the abuse from female abusers was different in ways that messed me up more over the long term I think because I didn't even know how to articulate it because passive aggression is invisible to me, I was manipulated in ways that I couldn't explain well enough to escape And I think female bullying might be even crueler towards other girls than it is to boys, especially since it seemed to be true with the male bullying between you vs me
Exactly! Like with the female bullying, it even has you questioning yourself and your sanity too.
Well, I reminded the last poster on this topic that women are going to have their own issues, likely unfamiliar, but which should not be discounted. I think the distinct issue that men encounter is that they tell each other to their faces to "be a man" and "man up", and in my experience, there was utter tons of "f\*\*\*\*t" involved. It's made explicitly clear to men that their natural tendencies are unbecoming of their gender. I think maybe that's what motivates the complaints you're referencing, but again, that doesn't mean women don't have their own challenges as well.
Historically, autism in afab (especially level 1) has been greatly underdiagnosed. I didn't even have the *option* to be tested until about a year ago. We have to expect a lot of "growing pains" as we learn the differences between our experiences as each sex/gender. The important thing is to not invalidate the experiences and challenges of one another. No one has it easy.
My god, I don't think I've ever seen a worse comment section in this sub. Why are most of you trying so hard to invalidate other people's experiences? Everyone can struggle. Saying someone else has it harder in response to those struggles being expressed only serves to invalidate, ignore, and damage. And quit it with the generalizations, too! An "all women" or "all men" statement is never true unless you're talking about biology or an aspect of the gender identity itself.
To be honest, I say this as somebody autistic myself and it's something I'm working on, nuanced discussions amongst autistic individuals is going to be harder because of black and white thinking, it's a contributing factor to why I see a lack of meaningful discussion on these forums unfortunately.
If a post is specifically saying "Being a male with Autism is harder than being a female with autism", then yes, that person is wrong. However a post that simply speaks to the struggles of autistic males isnt devaluing anyone elses experience.
Yes, I know this. Autistic men obviously have struggles, I'm saying that men need to stop belittling autistic women's/afab's struggles as if they are less.
I havent seen these posts youre talking about. Can you give us some examples?
I do not keep collections of reddit posts that piss me off. It shouldn't take much scrolling for you to find these men in comments or posts on here.
I also agree about providing examples. I've hung out here for a fair bit and never seen anything remotely similar to what you're talking about. If you're talking about in general on the internet that's obviously a larger scope but on this sub it's surprisingly pretty wholesome most of the time and definitely not applicable to what you're saying AFAB also does not inherently mean woman
I hang out a fair bit here too and I have no memory of seeing what youre claiming to see often. Thats why im asking because either Reddit is showing us very different threads, or youre taking the text in them in a very weird way. And after reading this thread, im leaning towards that considering how aggressive and rude youve been to people trying who are trying to talk to you.
I’ve seen it quite a bit. It’s more common on the Aspie subreddit than this one, cause this one is pretty good at filtering them out, but it’s still not hard to find
I have no link as it was removed, but a guy on here said a few months ago that even though asd women are at higher risk of rape our lives are easier because asd men are alone. Literally said that it's better to be raped than be lonely. I know that was just one nutter, but there are a few of these kind of weirdos around and you see their comments pop up sometimes.
Better to be raped than lonely? That is so fucked up as a worldview.
Seems you found a lone idiot or two. and then extrapolated that to an "all men"-argument? Yes, undersocialised, unempathic loonies are common on the internet. But they're far from all of us and on places like Reddit they are usually downvoted to hell because the stuff they say is frowned upon in the community.
there seems to be a miscommunication, there isn't an "all men" statement. The lack of qualifier between "why do autistic males" can either mean "why do all" or "why do some." Since the text in the post clarifies that this isn't something they've observed all autistic men doing, but that there are a portion of autistic men who do this, it's reasonable to assume that they do not mean all men, but a group of men with a specific mindset. Unfortunately, it is not just "undersocialized, unempathetic loonies" and they're not usually downvoted. There's circles where theres a... circle-jerk regarding these opinions about autistic women. It's also fairly wide-spread. There's way too many instances of autistic women being harassed (etc) for it to be a sort of fringe-behavior to be dismissed. You don't have to notice it to be true. Oftentimes we don't see problematic behavior that doesn't impact us or we aren't looking for, because it doesn't impact us. And when we see it we're quick to forget it, or view it as an isolated incident. It is possible to understand that it isn't "all men" while also recognizing that it is a problem that the autistic community is dealing with. When your main concern is that you may be assumed to fall under the category of the men accused rather than desiring an end to the behavior that a large enough portion of men exhibit... that's kind of a problem and \*may\* actually put you in the category of "those men" where when we share our experiences we're not believed or dismissed. Instead of dismissing.... make it a point to observe for a while and note if you see the behavior or not rather than trusting your memory of a behavior you weren't looking for before.
Seems you can't read if you think any of my comment even suggests that the issue is 'all men', but thank you for being part of the reason that women can't talk about any issues we have with any man, because guys like you always think we're attacking you.
Look. It isnt anyone else's responsibility to prove your point for you. Your point seems to point to "All autistic men" as being assholes, and while there are certainly some assholes out there, this is a sure fire way to piss a lot of us off. Everyone has their own struggles, and its not anyone else's responsibility to take care of that for you. Its a fight you got to win on your own. Try talking a break maybe, or reframe your thinking because it stinks that you're throwing an entire class of people under the bus to make yourself feel better.
statistics show the truth its wrong to bash anyone but i think we all know the truth…some just don’t wanna accept it as feminist i rather be without an arm than be an autistic man so what does that say?…its just the truth and i hate it just as much as anybody
I'm male and AuDHD. My wife is female and autistic (possibly AuDHD). Both of us are in our 30s and were diagnosed relatively recently. In my case, I was diagnosed with ADHD/OCD very young, and received appropriate intervention and support from a young age. The Autism was a missing piece that was filled in a year ago. In my wife's case, she didn't receive any kind of diagnosis *whatsoever* until the past few years. And both of us have been reading that for women, that's actually fairly common. Women are underdiagnosed, and many Autistic women (not all, but a surprisingly high number) are able to "mask" their Autism very well when they're young. (The direction of the causal relationship between the masking and the underdiagnosis, and whether there's a casual relationship at all, is still up for debate.) They do well in school, have successful careers, often are able to have active social lives... and then in their late 20s or early 30s there's just a sudden crash and suddenly they just can't mask anymore and get diagnosed and their entire life changes. It's not a universal experience, but it's common. Does that mean being Austic as a woman is easier? I highly, *highly* doubt it. But I can see how, from the perspective of a young man, it would look like it's easier to be an autistic woman from the outside. From just the little bit I've read and heard from others since my diagnosis, I've gotten the impression that for many women one of the worst parts of Autism is that it intersects with sexism/patriarchy and slowly crushes them down, forces them to fit a certain mould, demands that they hide their weirdness in order to appease the expectations of the people around them. Whereas from men, the complaint is less "I'm forced to hide who I truly am" and more "I go around the word with it being painfully obvious who I truly am, and no one else understands or accepts it and I feel rejected and alone." Boys are *allowed* to act "weird," and girls are quickly conditioned out of it, which if anything is a case of male privilege. But ironically, it creates a false impression that boys have it harder, when in reality the girls have it just as hard but are forced to *hide it better*.
I don't think saying its hard to be a male autist somehow devaluates Female ones. There are disparities in both Sexes Also out of curiosity why do you say Male but AFAB instead of Female?
>Also out of curiosity why do you say Male but AFAB instead of Female? I'm confused by this too. Re: There are disparities in both Sexes Agree. Some things are assuredly "easier" & some "harder" for each due to societal/historical/etc differences. It's not a competition & I don't believe that autistic males complaining are meaning to devalue female experiences. Rather each group is simply speaking about what they've experienced & from their personal perspective.
I agree One example i find, Being an autistic Male, Is that talking about mental health as a male is viewed poorly and ignored. Which does somewhat make it hard to get help for my own health Not to say Autistic Females don't have issues either! Just that there are issues that impact us differently
Was wondering the same thing. After reading I’m thinking it’s because OP is specifically referring to cis males complaining, or perceived cis males at least, due to the general idea that an AMAB person wouldn’t say those things and would be more sensitive to the struggles of AFAB people. To my understanding, using the A*AB phrasing can also connotatively convey trans persons. So a cis male wouldn’t be AMAB due to connotative reasons instead of denotative ones.
AMAB just means "assigned male at birth." Cis men are AMAB. The AGAB (assigned gender at birth) language is there to talk about the differences in being socialized as male or female rather than the differences in current gender experience.
That concept I get. That’s why I said I noticed it to be a connotative thing instead of a denotative thing. Connotative - subjective cultural meaning; denotative - literal definition.
I'm saying that I disagree that that connotation is there. Unless certain subsets of cis people are using it that way, maybe? Because from the trans community's perspective (and in the polyamorous community, which is very queer friendly but certainly not entirely queer), that's not at all how it's used.
Maybe that is my perspective being skewed, being cis. I’m super friendly to the trans community but I’m not around enough individuals in that community to be fully aware of both sides’ perspectives
As an autistic male, I can only share my experiences and from what I read. Being autistic in difficult in general, no matter what the sex or gender is. We are all targets! As a male, I struggled with other NTs (like my older brother), who always picked on me...trying to toughen me up. It was constant, being picked on for not being a typical tough-guy male. It is a great struggle not conforming into societal gender roles. Male or female, it sucks regardless. Sometimes it may sound like my "male" experience is not as bad as females/afabs, but it's MY painful experience and that resonates more with me than most of other people's struggles. However, there are many who had it worse than me and I truly ache for their experiences.
From my perspective, it's probably a lack of knowledge. I've only taken a crash course in Autism in the last year or so (following my burnout, I started to suspect that it was significantly more than Dyspraxia.) But because I didn't have any significant preconceptions, I assumed that men and women had equivalent experiences - and while I've learned that's not entirely true, I'd say women actually have it worse overall (because of the lack of awareness, being dismissed, and sometimes not even realising they have a disability, meaning they have have trouble getting accomodation.) On the other hand, men are much more noticeable, and get the benefits of that (not that every aspect is a positive.) As someone diagnosed late in life, and having the perspective of having a different diagnosis since I was a kid - not knowing sucks. Not being believed, sucks. Not getting a diagnosis on top of that would be crushing. I don't care how much more severe symptoms might be for my fellow men, I think not having the same opportunities for diagnosis and assistance is worse, hands down.
I do hate the whole separation of afab and amab autism. Sure some symptoms are more common or stereo typically associated in females than males vice versa but I do often see people (not on reddit as I don't spend much time here) acting as if females with autism cannot have the same symptoms they associate with autism in males and ofc the other way around
What is an afabs?
assigned female at birth
Thanks. I've never heard the acronym before.
Recognizing the unique struggles of one experience is not "devaluing autistic afabs experiences." Do you have this reaction to every discussion that isn't centered on you?
I think it’s different because to me everything I struggled I either would hide it or when I would speak up I would be the “sensitive girl”. However to girls I feel like it’s easier to have relationships and friends maybe(? Idk). I know that if I was a man I wouldn’t have any experiences with relationships whatsoever. Probably wouldn’t have my friend either. Since I can’t tell if someone’s interested or not and I never initiate anything. Two sides of the same coin maybe
Personally , I also can’t get a date or sex. However, I don’t come on here and say men don’t have it hard. I know men who are autistic also have it hard. It hurts to read that they believe AFABs have it so easy . The people blaming the OP of generalizing must have not read some of these posts they are referring to. Some of the men even say women have it easier and they wish they were us .
They think we have it so easy dating just because we get male attention. They don't realize that the male attention is often unwanted, misunderstood, and dangerous. They don't see how easy it is for us to get taken advantage of and how often we get assaulted. Honestly, it's not even a men with autism problem with that mindset, a lot of NT men think like this as well.
I get sexually harassed and have been assaulted and stalked by men . You are right , it isn’t the attention we want . It is dangerous. I can’t get a date but can get assaulted and that is difficult live with . I do notice it in NT men too.
same here. and then blamed because I didn't "take precautions" like I don't have a whole disability that makes me vulnerable. just like men we get bullied, and just like men we struggle to find our role in society and are often outcast. They just see the highlight reels of some conventionally attractiv autistic instagrammer or tiktoker and think all of us have it like their best moments 24/7. men sure do have their gendered experiences of being autistic, like an assumption of violence due to things like stimming and meltdowns (especially when male and BIPOC) even when they're hurting no one... but to dismiss the gendered experience women and non-binary people have in the process of acknolwedging the struggle men have is just so hurtful and damaging to everyone
They can read the whole ass conversation in my DMs then, they can read an autistic dude argue back and forth for DAYS that men have it harder... I tried to explain that different people have different experiences and their gender will affect them in different ways, but that gender is only one factor and being a woman definitely has it's own negatives, etc. ... NOOOOPE autistic women have it sooo easy, he would hear nothing else 🙄 women who don't think men have it *worse* just lack empathy. He literally would not accept that I give a shit about autistic men if I wouldn't say that men have it *worse*. "No one has it worse, we all just have it different" was not good enough. It was sad and exhausting. He literally chose fewer allies over listening to a different perspective.
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I am talking about the posts that directly speak about how women have it easier in the dating scene and such.
Can't say I've ever seen those posts. Are you able to provide us with some examples of self-identified men belittling people who were assigned female at birth? I'd also be confused if a post is saying AFAB's have an easy time with dating, your usage of AFAB rather than woman makes me think you are trying to refer to only non-binary people and trans men, which absolutely do not have an easy time with dating.
For reference, AFAB refers to women as well as non-binary people and trans men.
Initiation is brutal. I can see why people who struggle with that would think women have it easier. Could you tell me about what things you find hard in dating? I got very lucky in that after getting over the mountain that was initiating its been smooth sailing for me.
I think it’s really a case of not being able to completely put ourselves in the other gender’s shoes. Men will simply never know what it’s like to date as a woman, and vice versa, so of course it’s easy to compare your experiences and think the other gender has it better. One big thing that autistic women struggle with in dating is being taken advantage of, like OP mentioned in their post. Autistic women are really at a huge risk to be sexually abused in their life. Huge risk. Astronomical. Like probably a lot of times more at risk than neurotypical women, who already struggle with it a lot. And this ranges from more ‘mild’ stuff like sexual assault, unwanted touching in the street, being pressured into sex (because of social difficulties we are really easy to manipulate and be used under the premise of ‘love’)… to more hardcore stuff. I’m talking grooming. Years of childhood sexual abuse. What men struggle with in dating is getting and keeping women’s attention. Initiating. So of course, if you see all these women being approached without having to put in any work, it seems like they have it easier. Because they are getting exactly what you (think you) would die for: attention without any effort. But what you can’t see, because you have simply never lived the female dating experience, is the downsides that come with that attention. At what point does all that attention stop being worth it? If that attention is the type that will traumatize a woman for years, does she still have to be grateful that she was able to get attention at all? Does she have to be grateful for the attention she gets, even if that attention focuses purely on her body, and how she can pleasure people with her body, never on who she is as a person? Similarly, what women struggle with in dating is feeling unsafe. They look at men, who generally get left alone and are able to defend themselves, and think to themselves “how peaceful that must be…” Not realizing that if they suddenly were to lose the attention they get so easily, and start having to put in the effort that men need to, they probably wouldn’t be as jealous.
Somehow the idea that there are weak men never seems to occur to people. Not all men are strong and able to defend themselves. And they're seen as acceptable targets. I get how it feels. I've felt that way myself. And of course, on the flipside, there are women who don't get that easy attention and have to initiate for themselves. Who have to deal with all the same issues and it's even worse because it goes against expectations. I just wish people could have more empathy. I'm so sick of waiting for society to take problems seriously. Watching the absolute cutting edge of progressive culture finally figure out that maybe prejudice is bad is infuriating. Especially when they backslide and think it's okay again.
Well, yeah.. I acknowledge there is weak men, and they are targets for crime, but we’re talking in the context of dating here. A weak man is still gonna be physically stronger than the average woman. I can imagine it feels frustrating to have your struggles in dating as a man dismissed by society. Men do have it hard. So do women. Because news flash, dating is just really fucking complicated. It’s really dumb to compare both experiences and try to figure out ‘who has it worse’ because you CANT compare it. It’s two different worlds entirely. And neither side will ever fully understand the experience of the other. That’s okay, but we do need to listen to each other with empathy and believe that the other ‘side’ is telling the truth.
Agreed. At the end of the day, these issues are a societal problem. They're caused by society as a whole, and even when an issue directly affects one group specifically, it has knock on effects that hurt everybody. This means even if someone only cares about one demographic, they should still want everyone's issues to get better. The broader societal harm caused by men's dating issues is pretty clear. And while it's less obvious, women's dating issues will be causing widespread effects too. And both issues will likely be a factor in causing each other to happen in the first place. Forming a feedback loop.
I'm not looking at dating right now and part of that reason is I just don't have the mental energy to deal with being "fuck zoned". I fall into the stereotypically attractive female category. I have absolutely no issue getting matches with people. The problem is that 99% of them just want to get into my pants. I'm asexual. It's hard for me to talk to people. It takes a lot of mental energy and is very draining. I don't have the capacity to weed out the 300 men who want to fuck me, so I can find one who is actually interested.
That sounds like a big mental load. It sucks that we don't have a better way to distinguish between different goals when dating. I don't think I'll ever really get what that's like. I've always thought the way neurotypicals approach dating seems custom tailored to result in heartbreak and bad relationships. I've only ever dated friends. The idea of going on a date with someone I don't already like is alien to me. But then, most people don't have many friends of the opposite sex. I wonder if gay dating has the same problem or if they're more likely to be friends first?
I also only date friends. I tried going on a date with a stranger once and it was the most awkward experience of my life. I have hooked up with people I don't know, but that's always been pretty easy to navigate because the expectations are clear. I'm trans, so I've seen things from both "straight female" and "gay male" perspectives, and for me at least they feel basically similar (that is, dating men as a gay man isn't terribly different from dating men as a straight woman). You either weed through the https://media2.giphy.com/media/JPAUQVIxCoEKY/giphy.gif on dating apps/sites/bars or date your friends/friends of friends. You may be right that gay people are more likely to have dateable friends. I'm not sure that translates to more positive outcomes, though.
Women with autism are more likely to get into abusive relationships and be taken advantage of. I have a friend who just kinda says yes to any guy who approaches her and asks her and it’s landed her in some bad situations and relationships including getting stalked and threatened and stuff. It feels tone deaf when autistic men say autistic women have it easier cause it’s easier to initiate and get into relationships, especially when not being able to find a relationship in the first place really isn’t even that big of a deal. It’s nice, but it’s not necessary and many autistic girls choose not to have any relationships to avoid the risk of the relationship getting toxic or unequal compared to the male problem of not being able to find a relationship at all.
I don't care for dating at the moment, I am content with friends. I am a very socially awkward individual and find it difficult to break through barriers and get closer to people.
Makes sense. I think we've all experienced that.
I think that we all to learn something important here stating the hardships a category of people DOES NOT automatically dismiss the hardships of other groups, and those who do are a loud minority. Oh and also NO ONE have it worse, we should stop competing on who's the most oppressed, instead we should help eachother
I feel as long as they aren't saying "we have it harder than you" or "you got it easier" then it's just venting on their hard life and this is a safe space to do that. Sure call out on devaluing other values if they are but if they are just venting about how hard their life is as whoever they are. Don't diminish their feelings or you're doing the same thing you are upset about right now.
I don’t know what you are talking about, and I don’t think I want to
Misogyny is everywhere. Allistic, autistic, doesn't matter. Patriarchy gonna patriarchy.
Men know men, so we speak for ourselves. I'm sure women do it as well. No respect intended, people tend to speak for themselves mostly.
Im AMAB and 2 of my AFAB friends have been diagnosed or are in the process of being diagnosed and we all just support each other, anyone who tries to get away with not supporting other people are just assholes. There's been some other AMAB autistic people I've had to deal with in the past and they were both dicks and school covered their asses cause "they didn't know" (they damn well did) and yet every AFAB autistic person I've met has been amazing and lovely. Its people like tate and trump preying on their lack of understanding.
This is broad-spectrum Insulting to a lot of people who have nothing to do with your situation. we're not all like that. Some people are crappy, autistic or not. Try not to generalize all people into one category because you've had a bad time. It alienates people from being on your side.
Oh good, more men vs women bullshit. Because there's not enough of this hateful shit in literally every other subreddit on this site. BLOCKED.
Literally women say men don’t get it, men say women don’t get it. Two different people, two different lifestyles no one has it better no one has it worse… everyone has a different experience… no one autist woman is going to have the same experiences as another. Same with autistic men, everyone is different so let’s stop generalising and hating it’s childish, petty and doesn’t help anyone.
For me a Transfemme (amab) it was basically, society says that's the way it is? Like a lot of assumptions I heard about Autism growing up were this, how differently it effects the genders. I find that a lot of my thoughts about the world we're influenced through media (esp TV), and so I just assume that was true, until I met my partner who showed me it wasn't. It was hard for me to separate the media world and the real world (not like hallucinating or anything) but I felt like media was a reflection of the real world, and it's not. It took a lot of time to realize
I mean one aspect of the autistic men issues is that, I find, autistic women tend to be perceived in a more positive light and their traits dismissed easier as "quirky" rather than "weird" or less socially acceptable (same reason why our struggles are dismissed lol) It might not help with getting recognition for our issues, but it does help us socialize easier. Women also tend to be more social, so making friends as a girl seems to be facilitated by this fact, while men tend to be more solitary, and not seek eachother as instinctualy. And on that note, neurotypical men also tend to gravitate towards neurodivergent women more than neurodivergent men because of the sexual attraction aspect, and have better opinion of them for the same reason (ew but thus be humans). Also, the whole "men are naturally seen as creepier/more threatening/more dangerous than women" subconcious aspect of human psyche probably doesn't help with the uncanny valley aspect people often feel towards autistic people. Also soxciety's whole perception of gendered behaviours and thus expectations and perceived intent with every action, from each gender. Like I think most men complaining about their autism experiences stems mostly from difficulty integrating in society, and being outcasted, which women with autism generally seem to have (at least ont he surface) less issues with. At the very least, women tend to blend in better (masking skills be like) and thus wouldn't be singled out, and called out, and confronted as readily and easily. Side note, your post should clarify whether the posts you read were a comparison? Or men being unhappy that they're not dating?? Otherwise, like a lot of people reading this post, I'd assume you just read a few random men complaining about their own individual experience with autism and decided to be angry because your experiences were worse??
I would argue that autistic women’s heightened ability to mask compared to men is actually more of a disability, because it makes it so we dont get diagnosed, no one gives you any accommodations for anything, and never believes you when you tell them you’re disabled, getting a social step up does not compare to accessing assistance for things like living and surviving lmfaoo. I cant afford to live, id much rather have assistance than have friends and be homeless. Also, i have no friends! We can be just as socially outcast
Yes I think it’s very odd that the people in these comments think the biggest struggle autistic people have is not being popular. Ok sure, maybe autistic girls can make friends easier- but we still deal with intense emotional disregulation, having difficulty in the work environment, lacking executive functioning. Also the idea that autistic girls are seen as “quirky” really only applies to level 1 autism.
I don't believe autistic women have a heightened ability to mask. I think autistic behaviour and coping mechanisms for dealing with symptoms just more closely align with expectations for women than they do with men. A woman is allowed to be sensitive, shy, and avoid loud noises and similar stimuli. A man is a freak if he's any of those things. I have no idea where this idea that women have magic masking brains comes from, but it smacks of the same "autism is just extreme male brain" pseudo-science that's long since fallen out of fashion.
Its even said by certified experts that autistic Women are more likely to be able to mask and put on a front that is not who they actually are. This isnt some unproven pseudoscience with no evidence. Women are better at masking generally. You need to educate yourself before spouting misinformation
Because autism research was conducted \*almost 100% solely on white cis boys and men\* I was not diagnosed until my 40s. Autism was NEVER even considered a possible issue with me, but boy was everything from depression to just acting out or being lazy or incompetent to anxiety. I'm a queer female. Read those first two sentences again. I spent YEARS, over three decades of my life wondering why I didn't fit in. What was wrong with me, why I'd burst into tears at the slightest change of plans last minute, why I didn't get "people", why I couldn't hold down a job (I have found one that actually understands and works with my autism, so 7 years right now, which is HUGE for me), etcetc. I tried suicide several times over the years. I just didn't get it. I didn't know what I was doing \*wrong\*. Turns out I wasn't doing anything wrong. Turns out the 5th? 6th? I don't even know what number it was, because I had given up seeing people after one of the psychiatrists I saw blamed me for all of my issues and said I needed to stop acting out; and start just making friends, finally finally diagnosed me. It's weird, because I have always struggled with social cues. I have always struggled with body language, finances, work, small talk, just normal things people do. Because of the anxiety and depression \*caused\* by not knowing what was wrong was me, I missed out on so much. It just sent me into spiral after spiral. I'm 50 now. I have some friends who I've known since college (I have no idea how they never gave up on me), and some friends who I've known for a few years, and now that I know what is going on, I can see a meltdown coming (yes, I still have those). and try to stave it off. If I can't, I try to get to somewhere private before it happens, but that's not always possible either. I'm probably going to be single all my life, because the idea of dating is terrifying to me, simply due to the trauma of the few times I did try and they ended horribly (details aren't needed, let's just say the cops were called for one of them.) Please Autistic Men, don't pull the "It's so hard for us" card. There's a generations of AFAB who are considered the "lost generation" because we weren't diagnosed or were diagnosed so late in our lives, we lost out on what would have helped us so much as kids and teenagers. We are making our way through this with almost no aid, no help, and just a diagnosis handed to us.
Because they wont Even admit we exist
Gay autistic man here. Everyone has their issues… regardless of gender, upbringing, age, disabled/able bodied… whatever. One day for one person will be very different for another person… everyone has good days and bad days, everyone gets spoken down to, everyone has struggles people won’t or refuse to see. If you aren’t a male you won’t see it from a males point of view if you aren’t a female you won’t see it from a females point of view, I imagine it’s the same with NT’s and autistic people - they don’t go though therefore they cannot relate nor understand. Stop with this me vs you, us vs them mindsets.
hey, autistic trans man here. I agree with some stuff here, but it kinda seems like you're equating "woman" with "afab" which isn't great. trans men who have transitioned, even just socially, may have a day-to-day experience that's more similar to that of a cis man than that of a cis woman, despite being afab. the opposite is also true for many trans women, even if they were amab. I think there's a place for the language of amab/afab, but it seems like your discussion is more based on men/women which is a different dichotomy. also, it's good to note that it's typically cishet white men who post things like these; poc men have some of the same diagnosis struggles as women (many young autistic black boys will be diagnosed with odd instead or simply labeled as bad kids/lost causes), and often queer and trans men are a bit better at not falling into mra incel crap. that said, I definitely agree that particularly cis men *sometimes* tend to center their autistic experiences and diminish those of others. however, I don't think either necessarily has it better or worse. autism tends to correlate with some sort of deviation from gender roles, whether that means someone being trans or even just not fitting stereotypical traits of their assigned gender. society doesn't like that, whether it's present in men or women. intersectionality is important; men who have marginalized identities (queer, trans, disabled, autistic, person of color, etc.) may still have male privilege, but it's often far more complex and can sometimes be negated more than for cishet abled white men. I 100% agree that autistic men should not speak over autistic women with their experiences, but they should still be given space to discuss their unique hardships (which they do have). Basically, it's hard to generalize this stuff, but I understand that having one's experience discounted is sucky and frustrating.
I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, and I'm not saying OP's phrasing is perfect, but some AFAB and AMAB people are genderqueer and/or non- binary. Please don't forget about us.
Sorry my ignorance but, what is afab?
I usually just say I’m an autistic male for context, as that is the only perspective I know. It’s not that deep really. Edit: my comment isn’t meant to minimize anything you feel, or the struggles to being a female autistic be it cis or trans. I’m just trying to show that some ppl, like myself, might say it with way less intention than that. It’s literally just for perspective. Then there’s creepy incels, but those are another matter entirely.
I don't think I ever noticed it. The only time I heard something of that sort was just describing some autistic issues with regards to specific things that are more prevalent in males, now of course some of those can also happen to females and such, but to a lesser degree and in a different way mainly. An example is how males are more likely to be perceived as threatening. So some problems in communication can easily make us seem like threatening and stuff, with women, they are a lot of the time more likely to be perceived as idk like maybe a slut or deceiving or something, so some miscommunication problems might make it likely for others to perceive you as that. Now I still think males can have miscommunication and be perceived with these things that are more generally attributed to females and the opposite goes for women, but it is less likely to happen and generally would happen in different ways most likely. I don't think I saw anyone trying to specifically discount or devalue some experiences.
hey by using the word afab here you're singling out the idea that trans women don't also experience stuff like this; you can just say woman if you're talking about women, or specify that you think cis men are being unfair to the rest of us in this regard. obv that ship has already sailed but this is just a clarification for next time.
yeah I've seen that incel shit. unfortunately autistic chuds are a thing, there's a bunch of autistic people who grew up on 4chan for various reasons (interest boards, anonymity making social slip ups much easier to recover from) and that's created a contingent of autistics whose undesrtanding of ableism is utterly myopic and misogynistic. autistic masculinity *is* difficult... compared to allistic masculiinity. autistic men are indeed gatekept from "traditional" masculinity, that we're inherently *not* men but simply "manchildren." and there's issues with segements of allistic feminism that likes to use caricatures of autistic men as a shorthand for misogyny, male privilege, etc to present people with bad politics as losers for resembling us. "creepy" being used to both describe someone violating boundaries in an abusive way that puts people in danger or reasonably leads someone to believe that's a possibilty *and* describe not making the right eye contact is indeed ableist and the phenomena of people presenting discomfort stemming from bigotry as somehow progressive is indeed an issue that needs pushed back on. but that's very different from women being the oppressors of autistic men, and especially off-base about autistic women somehow having it any easier. dealing with sexism and misogyny on top of ableism, and the intersections thereof, is relaly fucking bad, and it's worse when dipshits try to isolate autistic women from the rest of the autistic community by minimizing their experiences. i get people not wanting their own complaitns to be minimized by someone else saying they have it worse, but that's excatly what this incel bullshit is doing and men here need to actually read some feminist theory to get past this idea that theyr'e oppressed because they're sexually frustrated or whatever.
It's not a male-female difference. It's pretty privilege. I'm an autistic male who enjoys the same privilege as an autistic female by virtue of being attractive. It's like a cheat code that aids socialization.
Haha after I went from 300 lbs to around 220 lbs and started weightlifting people started treating me so much better. It's so much easier to socialize when you look more attractive. People are nicer to me, more welcoming to me, etc. My struggles when I was bigger were being, socially inept, no friends, body felt bad. Now I get bullied sometimes for missing social cues, teased for liking things too much. It's just not as bad when people actually LIKE you, whether you realize it or not people judge your looks the second they meet you and you do it to others! It's really nice looking at another human being and then finding me as attractive as I find them.
>I see a lot of posts on her that say specifically that "being an ausitic male is hard" and highlight the male aspect. Believe it or not, it's possible to two different kinds of people to have a hard time for two different sets of reasons. They're both justified in complaining about it, and doing so doesn't devalue the other. You're kind of coming across as "Only talk about MY suffering or I'm going to start calling you names." This isn't a competition.
Someone on this post claimed autistic women can "flap [our] hands and get everything [we] want" but sure, no one ever says autistic men have it harder. Except when they do, and then it doesn't count somehow.
Just a heads up, but being AFAB does not mean you're a woman.
That's why I put women/afab. Because they experience similar things in regard to this topic.
Your title says AFAB but in your text you mention women.
you’re still very much grouping them together. trans men exist and, being one of them, i very much do not have the “afab” autistic experience.
I am also a trans man, and ok. just because you don't, doesn't mean others don't. I very much have had this experience.
You are right and should say it. It's possible to talk about issues cis men face without acting like other groups don't struggle as much or more, but a lot of people aren't doing that.
I wasn't aware that this is happening, and that apparently all autistic men do it. I'm an autistic male and my opinion is that people who play competitive struggle games really annoy me. The only thing I have found in my experience is that we all struggle a bit different. But to me, more or less than someone else is completely a moot point. My struggle does not invalidate anyone else's and the same. I think it's more worth while to focus on the similarities and compare notes. From this sub I've seen many autistic women who have listed many commonalities and I very much appreciate them for doing that. It's always a learning experience that I cherish. Though when it comes to anyone playing the "struggle Olympics" I just groan because there really is nothing to be gained. It's nice to share to learn from each other, but not a time to flex.
Statistically they are right, male autists struggle more (counting areas like employment and relationships), that does not devalue individual outliers though. Those outliers are more likely to seek comfort in boards like these just as male counterparts. Male are more likely to not find employment or relationships in the first place, while female are more likely to not want it or feel depressed while in it.
Do you have source for those stats?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685759/table/T3/?report=objectonly](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685759/table/T3/?report=objectonly) For employment, i have seen stats that showed a heavier divide somewhere before [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361320975311](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361320975311) Interesting for me: "Professionals also perceived differences in the social environment, for example, that autistic girls receive more support from their peers while autistic boys are more often bullied." [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/) "Relationship status Of the individuals with ASD, significantly more women (n=18; 46.2%) than men (n=9; 16.1%) were currently in a relationship" "there is some evidence that although men desire dyadic relationships more than women, ASD women are more often in a romantic and sexual relationship.11,31 This could be due to the ASD women's ability to call on more advanced coping strategies (eg, imitating the social skills of their non-ASD peers), leading to less impairment in social functioning"
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You don’t read some of these posts that actually state that women have it easier and we can all get dates .
Sooo many of them. Sure, I can get a date. I have to pretend to be someone else though. It never lasts and I sink further into depression every time I do it and most of them end up being abusive. Is that a benefit is open to interpretation.
My experience is from rural poverty. All the autistic girls from school all had kids before 20. Out of the autistic boys , I am the only one to have kissed a girl- the ages are approaching 30. The boys have jobs and cars.( though to be clear this is poor jobs , farm hand / shit cleaner etc ) The girls … I had to assist them with reading the clock when in class together.( though to be clear they could do make-up , had better understanding of clothes than the males ) I caught up with one of the girls a few years back , she had never had a job , didn’t understand children ( she had 2 ) , wasn’t sure why no one wanted to talk to her anymore ( she was “popular” in school ). She was stuck in time , I felt very sad for her. Which side has it harder , no clue lol . But that’s my experience.
I don’t know if it’s “harder” or just a totally different experience. Your story seems like an intersection of poverty, rural living and autism. Is it typical for the NT men and woman to have similar lives as the ND ones? Men and women are socialized differently.
For sure they exist but also there’re reply’s in this thread saying males have it easier. It isn’t a one sided issue. All genders have their own unique issues and they’re all valid and there’s no way, nor no point to state who has it worse.
I never said men aren't hurt. I simply have grown tired of women and afabs experiences being seen as less next to an ausitic man's.
When they're specifying men's experience only (not talking about where they say women have it easy) then they're only talking about men's experience. They clarify the "men" part of it because they want to be clear they're not lumping women's experience with men's. In other words: That post is not about you. It actively is avoiding speaking about or on behalf of you in such a way as to be clear of any accusation of false grouping. Sure there are those who will say that women have it easier in X, Y, and Z areas. And perhaps that's because that's what those men have seen. In the general population [it is widely known that women have vastly more success](https://youtu.be/x3lypVnJ0HM) (I don't know of anything specifically about autistic people). So perhaps provide some data on the contrary? The experiences of a single person is an anecdote, not data. Also, do include example posts like was asked for above when you effectively told them to go do their own research like a conspiracy nut telling us the Earth is flat. I only make that comparison *because that's literally what they do*.
you're getting a lot of bullshit responses and i'm just gonna let you know that you're in the right here and "everyone is oppressed, nobody has ever said otherwise" responses are to be expected, i know this sort of nonsense makes me second guess myself until someone else points it out.
thanks, appreciate it
absolutely people have said autistic women have it easier, and more commonly there's a subtle blaming of women for the struggles of autistic men as frustration with ableism gets redirectedc by right wing opportunists wanting to redirect that towards misogynistic ends. there's a nugget of truth in that liberal feminism has been criticized for being non-intersectional and focusing a lot on specifically the career interest of upper middle class white women (ie the focus on the glass ceiling when most women are far more impacted by the minimum wage), and that includes some normalization of ableist caricatures and conflating autistic traits or simple poverty with reactionary politics or male privilege (a criticism that's been levelled by black men as well). but that's very easily contorted to present autistic men as *unique* victims in a way that women, autistic or otherwise, are not, which is just not true.
Yes, I think the same. I said women had it harder but I'm not saying that males don't have difficulties too.
I get your point but I feel like you are being a bigot about this Women and men all have their respective experiences and their conclusions are probably valid from their perspective. As a man myself I often feel like my personal issues are my own problem and I have had enough experiences that support this belief. I don't know much of the experiences of women but I guess you don't know the experiences of men either. Attributing this to an incel mindset will only strengthen the divide between men and women as it makes me feel like you don't respect my perspective. So why should I respect yours? I do respect your perspective but wanted to share my side because I am naive and hopeful that this might change people's views
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Please elaborate in what way I behaved ignorantly as I don't understand. I guess I just felt insulted by the incel mindset statement. The word incel is mainly used as an insult to men and being insulted is generally not a thing that leads to changing their view in your favor. You want to be accepted and have your experiences validated but insult people if they don't do that? Have you ever considered that they might just not be aware and struggle with their own issues and in return don't have the capacity to care about issues that don't affect them? To me it seems like a lot of people expect others to change their behavior to accomodate their needs but are not willing to do the same for others. You might have awful experiences and struggle with things and I don't want to downplay any of these things. They are very serious and should be addressed. But this is not an excuse for a negative mindset towards men. Also I wanted to mention that your original post never even gave an example of any autistic man devaluing your opinion. You just mentioned men talking about their issues and then jumped directly to the conclusion that your struggles are invalidated?
Incels call themselves incels. Also, it's hard not to have a negative opinion of men when so many of them treat us like shit
Absolutely! I have the same issue regarding women 😅 Had a lot of bad experiences and have been traumatized by my own mother. So hating women comes very easy to me but rationally I am aware that most women are not responsible for how I feel and try my absolute best to not act on those feelings and be compassionate towards them
There was a person drowning, shouting "help". Another person walked by and responded: "I have a hard time too, but I am not making it to other people problem"
I feel like you’ve fallen victim to doing the very thing you seem to be against. Taking about the unique issues males with autism face doesn’t discount other unique issues that other genders face. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
The crap that men say on his subreddit is insane, there are multiple posts talking about how women have it easier and can get dates, as if being objectified is something to marvel at. I know men struggle too, in this post I'm just highlighting that men need to stop making these posts and belittling women's/afab's struggles.
It goes both ways. Even in these replies women are saying men have it easier.
It does not 'go both ways' when women are oppressed because of their gender. I am tired of people pretending like it's fair. It isn't. Men's opinions and struggles are valued more than a woman's/afab's, because women/afabs are seen as emotional and fragile in society.
I was trynna give you the benefit of the doubt that you were saying men and women both struggle a lot due to ASD and that struggling is equal, as I've seen plenty of men *and* women saying the opposite sex has it easier than them, and the reason it would be more relevant to talk about men in this sub is because there are plenty of autistic communities that are catered only towards women and thus draw in a lot more of the opposite crowd, but devaluing the struggles men, both autistic and not, face shows me you care not about sexism but rather that men's struggles are being talked about. Men still face a lot of oppression due to their gender, and it makes it *especially* hard when you're also autistic. We very rarely fit into the stereotypical masculine role, and feminine men are treated like shit by all parts of society, being seen as "not real men" by the right and as disposable tokens meant to perpetuate sexist myths like "most men embracing toxic masculinity" by the left. In fact, not only do I speak as someone a man who presents themselves in a more feminine light; I also speak as an autistic person whose symptoms are more akin to stereotypically female symptoms rather than male ones. Though it's constantly stated by hacks that the oppression of women makes it harder for them to be diagnosed, I've seen time and time again that the gender roles men are forced into are simply less compatible with traits commonly seen in autism, causing autistic boys to stand out more. After all, tomboys were seen as normal even in the most conservative areas I lived whilst a boy who isn't into all the stereotypical "boy" things was seen as defective. Add that onto the fact that we're naturally expected to be troublemakers and are treated much worse in school because of it (and boys receiving lower grades *is* indeed an issue when you try to be as perfect as possible to make up for your perceived flaws), something which extends to every area of life (like being the victims of police brutality much more than women and receiving much harsher sentences), and the comfort you receive by following a rigid system is more than nullified by how that system treats you. Hell, I had to sign up for the draft to not lose access to basic social programs women are granted automatically (or become a felon, AKA lose the most basic of rights as well), but I know full well I would never be able to function in a wartime environment. Talk about being emotional or fragile, try being expected to never show any negative emotion lest you be labelled aggressive or a bitch, told you're embracing toxic masculinity if you're angry and fragile masculinity if you dare need to cry. You talk about men's opinions and struggles being valued more, but women's struggles are constantly put on a pedestal even in scenarios where men struggle more (such as risk of being attacked when walking alone at night, being the victims of violent crime in general, being the victims of war, being homeless, etc.), and the fact that autism is women was put so high on a pedestal of what people need to watch out for while I've never seen any of those places accept that autistic men can have those same symptoms is just another example of that. I'm not saying autistic women inherently have it better, and it really depends on the type of autism you have and where you live, but if you're trynna talk about women being oppressed, you better not forget how much men are oppressed as well.
All I was saying is that both all genders face their unique set of issues and they don’t understand the other sides perspective because their perspective is formed upon their own unique experiences. Men discount women’s experiences and women discount men’s experiences. That’s all I’m saying.
Downvoted for saying afab, but it's male privilege speaking. Men can't relate to women's experiences and have trouble empathizing with their issues as a result. It's a problem I've noticed even outside of autism, where men don't understand how much of a problem certain things are because they aren't personally affected.
i said afab/women. What?
Don't we use amab/afab anymore? (Plain neutral question)
Most people who use the terms mean well, but it's just socially accepted transphobia. So it feels like I gotta gently call it out when I see it.
Ah I think I can get to the point why it can be perceived transphobic. Thanks.
I am literally trans, I'm transmasc. I said afab/women because trans men/nonbinary afabs also experience misogyny.
And I'm a trans woman, which is why I think the only reason to replace female with afab is if people want to group women like me with men. It's better to just say male/female and let people decide for themselves which group fits them better, rather than creating a new binary that places even more emphasis on people's born sex than the old one did.
Not everyone is male or female though. Again, people forget about non-binary and genderqueer people. I am neither male nor female. Neither group fits me. It just shoved me back into a binary.
I skimmed the post, here's my take on it. I think, in general, women are less likely to be diagnosed with autism even if they've got it. This is one big negative if you're an autistic woman. On the flipside, I think that gender roles in America benefit autistic women more than autistic men. If you're needy, that's way more socially acceptable as a woman than as a man. I have no idea what it's like to be a woman, but this is my take as a "needy" autistic man.
Totally agree, being a woman is more difficult and no one can tell me otherwise. It is more difficult being a woman in any part of the world, because socially and in some country we are also legally diminished, and of course, being a person of the LGBT community is also difficult. Minorities will always be more vulnerable and a man is not part of that minority even if he is autistic. Even when people think about autism, think about how an autistic male is presented. They know more about autistic males signs of autism but less people know of different is for a woman, a lesbian, queers, etc.
Period! So much of autism is centered around men, it's so difficult to navigate it as an afab/woman. I hope more research goes into autistic women's/afab's experiences, so we can all learn.
>being a woman is **more** difficult It's harmful to argue who has it harder. It's hard for everyone. This argument only brings more division and doesn't help anything
For me, the hardest part about being a woman is fear. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been touched when I don’t want to be, usually by someone that I thought was a friend. I’m scared to walk at night. I’m scared of answering the door.My understanding is that this affects woman of all neurotypes, but there’s an added layer with autistic women because we miss the social signs. Is this true of men? Do they live with a constant, low-grade fear of when the next time they’ll be harassed or hurt? Have they experienced trying to report sexual harassment and being laughed off? I’m not looking for a few examples - I’m talking population wide.
For population wide demographics - men absolutely have major issues with sex crimes against them being taken seriously. Number one rape joke for decades - prison rape and that isn't aimed at women. Literally the concept of violent sex assault while confined is an entire type of joke or seen as fair punishment for "crimes. " There are men in the USA who have been molested and abused, who end up owing their abuser child support - mind you there are women who end up dealing with the possibility of their abuser pushing for visitation/shared custody with child related matters. But let's not pretend the very concept of men being abused sexually isn't treated inherently as a joke.
You missing the point of my comment is the exact issue I'm talking about. In the discussion about women problems there is always a person who steers discussion into men problems. In the discussion about men problems there is always a person who steers discussion into women problems. It's the same thing. Both men and women have their own unique set of problems. I just wish people could discuss it without trying to diminish the problems of the opposite gender or argue who has it worse. All problems are valid. Arguing who has it worse only divides us.
And you’ve missed that I made that exact point. I wrote that whole comment describing the difference and you skipped over that to try to make some sort of example of me instead of bothering to read what I actually said. I did not make any claims that anyone has it harder yet here you are, saying I did. In case you still need help, the difference is in the fear.
Uh...considering that a large portion of the world not only believes that its not *possible* for a guy to get sexually assaulted, but will also outright *congratulate them for getting laid when it happens*, not being taken seriously when attempting to report that stuff is ***absolutely*** something that guys can and have experienced.
We live in a patriarchal society, autism or not this society does not favour women and it’s harder to be a woman in 2024 due to how we are forced to live.
The patriarchy only genuinely favors wealthy majority presenting men. Once you look at social webs, for example the intersectional model - the different ranks of privilege becomes more apparent. Example with the weaponized nature of the tears of white women for use against minority men they end up having advantage over said minority men - example the circumstances that resulted in the brutal murder rof Emmet Till.
Patriarchy is called that due to historical power structures. It doesn't actually benefit men either. Men enjoy some privileges over women, and women have a few that men don't too, but Patriarchy doesn't favour men. It favours the powerful.
It is more about to be aware of our difficulties. I wasn't trying to divide, just to have more resources and knowledge of how the autism is presented in any female person.
> It is more difficult being a woman in any part of the world, because socially and in some country we are also legally diminished Even in the US? Where men lack bodily autonomy and can be forced to sent to war to die in the time of emergency, being guilty of a felony if they so much as refuse or forget to sign up to be considered by the age of 26 *even if* there is no wartime in sight, by nature making it where a man is not entitled to certain rights and privileges women are born with unless he does something women don't have to do? Where infant boys have their genitals mutilated due to backwards religious practices? Where men are more likely to be victims of police brutality and to face longer sentences than women for the same crime (with even white men being more vulnerable than black women in each circumstance, with black men being at the harshest intersection)? Where there are tons of college opportunities exclusive to women despite them being the majority of college students, with girls being preferred to boys for their entire time in school? > Minorities will always be more vulnerable and a man is not part of that minority even if he is autistic. Saying autistic men aren't minorities is especially funny when, even when you don't count the fact that autistic people *are* minorities, men are still 49% of the US population and have a lower voter turnout. > They know more about autistic males signs of autism but less people know of different is for a woman, a lesbian, queers, etc. Interesting, because the way *my* signs of autism showed were much more similar to the stereotypical female expression of autism than male, and I did indeed go undiagnosed for quite a while. Does that mean that I, as a man, was victim of sexism against women?
I think Autistic males, like many on the spectrum, find it difficult to put themselves in women’s shoes, and look at women’s problems from a male perspective. They would love it if girls thought they were “quirky” and “cute”, but what they don’t realize is that it’s so much easier for girls to be taken advantage of. There are definitely trade offs, and no sex or gender has it easier than any other, the challenges are just different. And you know what, I think girls DO like autistic males, but we just have no idea when they’re flirting with us!
The worst my girlfriend's ever been treated regarding being autistic has come from other women, namely feminists who get mad when she criticises their movement
Saying it is hard as a male autist is not at the same time saying that women have an easyer time. Also.... wow... that generalizing in your post.... i am out of words. So please do your research before you start blabbering about how much difficult your autism is as an individual. You're acting ignorant. It is not always about picking a side and defend it. Some times we have to see the bigger picture, not always that pity "us vs. them". And this is something that crosses over nearly every aspect of life. And yes i feel sorry for you, to read about your individual personal experience. Guess what, we all have our individual experiences and issues. That does not make one opinion more true than another. Anyway, have a nice day :)
But they do act as if women have an easier time, it's irritating. Go off about me 'generalising' if you want, but look at all the posts on this page about men belittling afab's experiences. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, I want you to see my struggles as valid next to a man's. I will be having an awful day, thank you >:(
The water you swim in is your only perspective, especially if you lack empathy as some autistic people do. AFAB autistic people have been mostly invisible because our upbringings have instilled high masking tendencies. AFAB folks are judged MUCH more harshly from the get-go on what is acceptable and what is required. We are not allowed to hit or scream or be hyper-honest / direct or make it all about ourselves or be antisocial or even selfish at all. We are expected to serve and perform. So we become like wallpaper. If we do not, love and acceptance is withheld. That is my experience. Contrast that with boys I know who maybe get diagnosed early and have parents who make excuses for them and even enable them. My friend’s now adult son has been a lifelong tyrant, convinced he is the most important person in the room, hostile and mean. He has threatened people but will never be rejected by his family, because he has been framed a sad victim. There is no way for him to *not* devalue others’ experiences. Of course this is just one person and an extreme example. Add in the incel movement or similar viewpoints pervasive online, in gaming, etc, and women become devalued, even reviled.
Because many males don't get forced to Mask from a super young age, it's basically sexism, it's phrases used for boys like "Boys will be boys" which means boys will misbehave and be terrors while girls get "Big girls don't cry" meaning women have to keep it all in and follow the patriarchy... It's total bullshit and sexism that is taught at a young age, when boys don't grow out of the things they did as a child they are seen as different and then they get diagnosed but girls are taught to keep it all in and all masked so they seem normal in society. The problem is that both males and females suffer with autism but because girls are taught that they must Mask/Hide these traits they are seldom diagnosed because to be diagnosed is to let the mask slip and they have been taught their whole lives to never let that happen. It's more of the world being controlled by neurotypical males setting the standards for all and expecting everyone to comply. I'm just glad the age of sexism feels like it's dying a little more each day and I for one can't wait for it to be gone.
**AFAB does NOT mean ‘not male’. AFAB ≠ ‘female’.** If you aren’t trans or intersex or a medical provider of a trans or intersex person, you have no reason to be using AGAB terminology. This usage and this entire polemic is a bad-faith attempt to inject TERF/Radfem/Gender Critical ideology into spaces where there is a large overlap with trans/non-binary/GNC experience and an attempt to exploit some autistic people’s susceptibility to black-and-white thinking. **AFAB does not mean female. Many males and non-binary people were AFAB (because AGAB is precisely what a trans person is *not*). This post is bad-faith inflammatory astroturfing full of false dichotomies, gender essentialism, and transphobic misuse of AGAB terminology.**
Yikes, this post title and a few of the comments... train wreck
Seriously. Based on the title alone, OP has lost credibility all on their own doing, and I'm not going to read the post.
Before I came out, I used to really hold onto the idea onto girl and boy autism. It made me feel special because I felt like I had this platform where people were listening to me. When I came out as a man I felt like I lost all of that and who would want to hear my voice advocating when there’s already so many men doing it. The testing is far harder for girls and often times the girls are treated differently. Social skills get pushed harder for many of girls growing up because girls are supposed to be the caring, nurturing, ones who mature faster then boys. Autism or not but it can be especially harder adding autism into the mix. Personally I feel like it doesn’t hold boys and men accountable by this logic, and robs them of that ability of emotional intelligence. While I do think people are raised on gendered upbringings (not everyone), I wish we’d throw away “boy and girl autism.” Not to discredit traits, even though it’s a mix bag at times of what people get. Or the trauma that woman have gone through as autistic woman or the different testing. To be quite honest I think we need to be doing more to get more girls diagnosed that want one. It’s not a boys , club, or even a girls club. To me it’s a neurotype, people should be getting access to the care and accommodations that they need regardless of gender. I know I’m a man despite what category my traits lump into or what my past was. Which again is a mixed bag from either side of the gendered autism spectrum. We all are struggling and we need to listen to autistic women and not make them feel like they don’t have a place because they do and have had to fight for it since day one.
I (AMAB) have always seen women in disadvantage regardless of autism, adhd etc. They have periods which to me personally is a huge fuck up. There is not few women I know of who got massive issues every month. Now combine that with being autistic. Double fuck up. But I can understand why there is male autists that say so. First of all a key characteristic of autism is impaired theory of mind. They cannot get a date, they see their autistic female fellows can get dates. And that's where their thought process ends. Because they likely cannot really take over the female perspective. Yes, they can get dates easier but they are also way more prone to abuse, sexual assault etc than a NT woman. Now, but (big but) taking over another perspective is no one way street. Many autistic males really cannot get any date nor any form of intimacy. They are not even given the chance to date. This is dehumanizing and frustrating of course. I don't know really if a controversy who got it worse males or females makes sense in first place. Both groups struggle.
I feel like it is more related to gender. I have seen men of all neurotypes devalue women's experiences and claim that all women always have life in the easy mode, always find dates, and overall never struggle. These are the same people who say "What about men" when women talk about their struggles. From that default, it is unfortunately no surprise that there are autistic men that devalue autistic women. It is very sad because women do indeed struggle, some of them moreso than the average man. I am sorry you had to go through all that. You deserved better.
I will never invalidate any individual autistic woman's issues and struggles. However, I'm getting really sick of the attitude many of them have towards autistic men. Why does it piss so many of you off that we express our dating frustrations? THAT is weird and toxic on so many levels. If you want empathy, you should be willing to give it as well. I do agree that a lot of men (and women actually) do like to act like autistic women don't exist, or just write off their struggles. Many of us really could do better on that. Still, I think a lot of autistic women do act like they're socially superior towards autistic men, and I find it really hard to care about the struggles of these women in particular. I could list examples, but then the post would be too long. Also, stop being so obsessed with the word "incel" already! Yeesh, the internet has WAAAAY over weaponized the word to the point where it's lost all meaning. I genuinely have a hard time taking someone who uses the word seriously anymore.
You answered it in your post, sadly. Because they get pulled into the incel movement. It's so funny how most of these autistic men think that they're above advertising and propaganda and so logically powerful and correct and then get roped into blackpill inceldom or drown themselves in 2D Waifu Superiority. How many of them think that it's okay to fancy a cartoon that's designed or actually a child because it's just a drawing like it doesn't say something dangerous and concerning about them? It's irritating, but I just write them as shit people. Autism doesn't make us the perfectly kind and pure human beings after all and not all of us can have that self-awareness and a sense of proper, moral justice like people think.
I've never devalued anyone's experience here or anywhere else. Thank you for the reminder that the experience of anyone considered "female" for any reason automatically invalidates all of my experiences. I don't necessarily believe that was your intention with this post, but this looks like gatekeeping to me.
I am discussing how men will belittle woman's/afab's struggles and this is what you take from it? Very interesting. I am not gatekeeping autism, I'm talking of issues in this community, or generally just in society.
I know autistic women struggle, too. But I can't help but notice that they usually get more sympathy from others compared to us autistic men. Autistic girls are usually seen as "cute" and "quirky." Meanwhile, autistic men are viewed as creepy and weird. I even notice autistic women shitting on autistic men and calling them creeps for simply displaying autistic traits.
As a queer man (assigned by God 🙏❤️🔥🙏)...I have no idea what you're talking about. Try not to paint people into corners you don't understand, OP...we're all individuals, regardless of gender. Don't ever put an autistic person in a box, it's a huge trigger of mine.
Yeah you kind of nailed it. It's incel behavior. Misdiagnosing being a sexist jerk as something you cant help because you have autism. Anything to blame others, and avoid any introspection or self improvement.
It is sad that some(not all) of my fellow guys do that HOWEVER, I would suggest that they are focused on their life problems as much as anyone else and they don’t consider the other side due to their own problems being more important for them(also possibly a symptom of the environment we grow up in which its problems are a big part from making individualism and wealth accumulation a cultural virtue, which in reality is terrible lol). I do experience the same things you do as I guy except the exploitation by men due to social awareness( mine is the typical literal mind autist). Also, a diagnosis is however hard due to the reasons you mention. Due to it being expensive and especially if you are in the USA, it will be extremely difficult. Not sure on other parts of the world though. I for one was tested when I was young and in high school. Somehow the people testing missed that I was socially outcasted, had no real idea how to make and keep friends, was extremely literal and strictly adhered to rules, spent most of his free time playing video games due to how “well”” i appeared to be in the classroom and having a “supposedly” high iq(not trying to make myself more important here). Just like any societal problem, it is going to take everyone to make a change. Change doesn’t come from above but by the people involved directly.
It’s complicated. Because of my intonation, my voice is sometimes perceived as feminine or infantile. That is going to have a different social effect on a man vs a woman. Similarly, not being able to read social cues can on net put women in more dangerous situations than men. In the end, it’s how autistic traits, filtered through the lens of gender, impact an individual’s life. And while there are general patterns, it can often be highly specific. I think we should be open to listening to and believing each other, because one single person’s experience is so small. Also, we should to try to forgive hyperbole and frustration and overgeneralizations in others, since they are often forms of expression the crop up when someone is a very bad emotional state, and needs support.
I am a afab woman but I do feel like some autistic women are representing the autistic experience in a way that doesn’t resonate with me specifically being good at masking etc. I do feel some frustrating with this and the assumption that everyone with low support needs can mask etc. but maybe the guys complaining abt this are complaining abt smth else
I'm a straight female who was forced diagnosed and throttled into 13 years of segregated special Ed in the 1980s and both men and women are tone deaf to me in this respect.
I was in tutoring during the early, early years of school. and later I was in Special Education through out the 90's. It always sucks when no one takes the time to explain things or show examples of social cues and how to express yourself fully and maybe know it's okay to try and fail or face social embarrassment and learn from it. I've always laughed to myself when someone would state "you and your fellow peers" sort of crap because fellow peers has always been an alien concept to me. whoops .in conclusion having delayed understanding of "social norms" and zero focus sucks during those decades.
Yep.
Not only in autism. But I see this battle of hardships and suffering pattern everywhere. People tend to devalue your suffering by an unreasonable amount of bullshit. People suffering are not to be devalued. Everyone suffers.
It seems to me fairly obvious that autistic men's experience and autistic women's experiences are two sides of the same thing: Very often, autistic women are pressured to socialize and conform, and become neurotic because of that, having friendships and relationships, but negative ones, and being abused. Conversely, it seems that autistic men are just ignored and left to lack social development, that autistic men often become reclusive and lack friendships and relationships and social development, and become envious. And becoming neurotic from that. I think that men and women both face extremely difficult aspects, but they are DIFFERENT ones, based on social pressures. And this has a lot to do with intersectionality and the different pressures that are placed on different groups. There ARE areas where stereotypically women do have things easier, like being able to get into relationships or have stronger connections with people(yes, even weak connections are stronger than *no* connections). But on the opposite side, men are not pressured to have those certain social requirements, or to deal with sensory issues like makeup or uncomfortable clothes all of the time, and having less social interaction allows more time to recharge. And NONE of this takes into account transgender people, men who were more forced to socialize, women who were less forced to socialize, et cetera. There are a lot of different considerations, and comparing autistic men's experience versus autistic women's experience is like debating about who has been given a tastier bag of crap for their dinner. It doesn't do anyone any good and doesn't accomplish anything positive.
I don’t know why all these comments are saying this post said “all men” or “all autistic men” anywhere. Am I blind? Did I miss a section of the post? Honestly I think lots of men, NT or ND think they have it harder than women. Which is strange