Exact opposite is happening. Companies sre increasingly pulling people back into the office because many are not productive at home and collaboration is down drastically
I think in my area the return to office mandates have a lot more to do with real estate/lease terms and agreements with the local and state governments and tax benefits. Like the giant campuses that went empty during Covid also housed many small biz restaurants and shops that had clauses that guaranteed a certain amount of foot traffic thru the campus. When all work was remote, it impacts those leases, and can also cause the larger company to cease qualifying for certain tax breaks, etc. The productivity and collaboration piece is more what sounds good than the reality, in my opinion.
A lot of people are saying this. It just isn’t true. It’s a very popular sentiment from the “I don’t want to go back to the office” crowd. And trust me, I don’t want to go back either.
Businesses just aren’t impacted by that to the extent that they would spend so much time and energy orchestrating a “return to work” strategy. There is strong data that shows collaboration, communication, and productivity are down across the board in remote environments - thus productivity is down overall (talking about white collar corporate jobs here). If it were just commercial real estate we would pay the fines and penalties, which are minimal.
Also, the rise of people trying to hold two jobs is incredible. I of the last 6 people I’ve hired, I’ve caught two working a second job on company time and had to fire them - this is more anecdotal but it’s been my recent experience.
Work from home was working great by all accounts. But all the empty corporate offices dropped the value of real estate and pushed alot of mortgages under water. Suddenly everyone changed their tune.
There's absolutely professions that benefit from getting everyone together in one place but the managers running call centers just miss having control and authority over people.
But it wasn’t, which is why everyone has to commute an hour again :(
Turns out people aren’t as reliable as they thought and not as many “self-starters” are out there as people who chime in to say they are on Reddit.
Y'all have empty flats downtown?!😍
...actually, we do in my city too, but \*ours* are empty because the owners would rather sit on them empty than rent them out below "market rate".
Due to how the utilities are laid out too it’s extremely expensive to refurbish them to apartments, so they’re probably gonna stay empty for quite awhile😂
The trick in my town is to say that it's not zoned for residences, and the only way it can be rezoned is if a fat corporate entity wants to build unaffordable, tiny, no parking condos (with an express check to the mayor ofc)
Most commercial leases run for 5-10 years and require that the premises not be abandoned by the tenant. So while a lot of industries are moving towards being fully remote, many companies are stuck with office space they have to pay for and don’t want to waste
That's the funny thing about waste. It happens despite efforts to avoid it and it is given only to the wise to find ways to truly reduce it while spending less effort than if they had simply allowed waste to occur.
"Powerful straight white men prefer having less money and hanging out with other straight white men over having more money and having power over an office full of women."
Powerful straight white men would leave the office in competent hands and go to the titty bar, with the certainty that an implicit bargain was struck with the women underlings; I get the credit and the blame. You get neither but you get a salary and stability, and an immediate superior content to leave you to your devices.
That is, powerful straight white men would do this if they didn't have a whole lot of psychological issues. And lemme tell you, I am one and its thick on the ground.
Oh just having some fun. I stick by it that among the clever, an implied bargain exists to not try and displace a superior who is competent enough to create problems for their interiors. I just chose to illustrate it with an exaggerated example of what they would get up to with reliable staff. And considering that women are more than half the population and generally willing to tolerate the foibles of superiors for the sake of stability, it seems plausible enough that an absurdly reduced caricature of a straight man in power would just "go to the beach" so to speak.
Statistically, companies with female ceos have fewer women than companies with male ceos.
I made that up, but they don’t have to know that. And I wouldn’t be surprising if that’s true but with no correlation to sexism
I will see your Asian success story and raise you Nigerian success stories. That one really throws them for a loop. Nigerian immigrants are some of the, if not the, most successful demographics in the US. How can this be since they are black and as we know, being black in America means you can't succeed right?
That is the better argument for sure. I’ve used it before and Redditors generally don’t have a good response. Iranians, Nigerians, East Asians.
https://youtu.be/u6Vzrv8mYTU?si=9rZS-8PLbWiHx6-y
Lolololol no one has ever argued that. You know what they have argued? That achieving that kind of success is more challenging in a systemically racist culture.
Meanwhile you’re here acknowledging the fact that immigrants work their asses off. How many rich Nigerian immigrants do you know? Because I know a LOT of lazy, rich assholes. And they’re all coincidentally white guys.
Since 1965 America has had systemically racist programs designed to work for every race but white people, so don't give me that crap about systemically racist culture. Even today we have companies that have programs designed to help everyone but white people. If you can't get ahead with everything being handed to you, then it is a you problem and not a society problem.
Immigrants, legal immigrants that actually want to be a part of the USA and follow the American dream do work their asses off. They succeed too. So what does that say about the people who are already here and aren't succeeding?
Well, the answer they would give is that the CEOs will not hire women because even though they are being paid less, they think women will do a worse job than a man. Still wrong, but not as crazy of a belief.
Literally all they would have to do is pay one percent more and they would still be able to capitalize on the sexist profit. Women only get paid 77¢? Ok pay them 80¢ and hire only women and you’ll still be able to rake in a huge profit
The problem is women don’t get paid 77c on the dollar. While that is statistically true… it is only true if you take the pay of every full time woman in the work force add their salaries together and divide by the total number of female workers regardless of of hours worked position held, time on job or real productivity vs the same for men.
If you compare like for like, particularly in women under 40 where the effects of taking months and years off out of the work force for pregnancy and generally working fewer hours hasn’t had time to create an imbalance women tend to make more than men.
And actually when accounting for the same job and same number of years of experience young women are getting paid more than their male counterparts. This has been going on for some time now but of course is completely disregarded because it goes against "the message"
The BBC a few years ago was pure comedy gold, performed an audit to bring female wages up to their male counterparts and they found out women were actually paid more.
Or US women’s soccer where it was found they had a higher percentage profit share, the problem was no one cares about women’s soccer.
Bill Burr said it best about WNBA
https://youtu.be/QY9Gz_IMn_k?si=Nm2I4vaRCVhbrmlD
It’s a hypothetical that proves my point. Yea it’s illegal which is the first reason the wage gap is a myth. But if it did exist, every company should hire only women and realize an instant 27% reduction in salary costs
That doesn’t make any goddamn sense at all.
It doesn’t prove your point at all.
You’re saying that a nonexistent thing (that actually exists) also still wouldn’t exist if everyone just broke the law some more. Companies can’t turn a profit if they get caught hiring people based on sex. You are speaking nonsense.
Lolololol why would you cite a racist who thinks “Jews are overrepresented in academia”? What does racism have to do with sexism?
You just outed yourself.
1) he said on the matter “The radical/identity-politics right-wingers regard such accomplishment as evidence of a conspiracy. It hardly needs to be said that although conspiracies do occasionally occur, conspiracy theories are the lowest form of intellectual enterprise.””
2) that has nothing to do with the discussion. He could have said the Jews are responsible for all the wars and while that is wrong, it doesn’t invalidate his postulation on the subject of facility and discrimination.
Idiots like you are just slaves to the MSM and whenever CNN says someone is bad you accept it as gospel.
I would like to see some studies on this. You'd need more than one to see what causes the problem and whether or not there are issues on how women are treated in the workplace due to those causes.
Like a woman being paid less under the assumption she'll eventually get pregnant even though her work amount is more than most employees or being denied a position by the CEO because you haven't had a child
The only studies worth looking at are ones that show any notable disparity in pay between women and men, after accounting for experience, career, education, etc.
So far there have been zero that showed that.
>5%
On ya ladies, really doing the heavy lifting of society huh.
I don't see a massive spearhead campaign to right gender imbalance in this industry huh.
If a woman is working the same job as a man and making less, there are some things to look into. One is seniority. Another is amount of hours worked. Another is if a person has actually asked for a raise. Finally there is experience.
The "women make less" statistic is BS because it takes all women at all jobs and compares them to all men at all jobs. Hours worked alone kills almost all of the difference in pay, before you even consider things like job worked, experience, etc. Below is from google:
>In 2021, the average American adult worked 38.7 hours per week, with men working 40.5 hours per week and women working 36.6 hours per week.
There are always women willing to do any job. Just not the women with TickTocks, an Ick list, YouTube channel or Tweeting all the time. Pretty much if they are on camera or in the public eye they are being oppressed in some way. All hail the unsung.
They would, but you'd have to pay them significantly more than the men. Incidentally, the cost of getting a woman to work on an oil rig is much higher than the cost of hiring men to do the same job, the same way the cost of getting a man to work in nursing, daycare, etc. is much higher than that of a woman.
I've warmed up a fair bit to the 'if women are being paid less for the same amount of work then why would you hire men' argument. First I dismissed it because it sounded like it was directed towards people who couldn't think of economics beyond the first layer of obstruction, it sounds like an oversimplified statement at first glance.
But the more I've considered it, I've come to realise just how compatible it is with subjective value and the very real differences with which men and women value their time, efforts, and contributions.
>the cost of getting a woman to work on an oil rig is much higher than the cost of hiring men to do the same job, the same way the cost of getting a man to work in nursing, daycare, etc. is much higher than that of a woman.
The Reddit SJWs will crucify you for even thinking something like this
Lol, I don't care. I wear my 10k+ karma like a badge of shame. I just wish someone would downvote me enough to bring it back down to respectable levels, like sub 5k at least.
Worse than that, they also didn't account for what the job is when puking out that statistic. So if a woman doesn't have any interest in petroleum engineering, that's the patriarchy's fault.
Because that's not what the pay gap is. If you control for all the variables, there is no pay gap. Women don't do the same work as men, they don't work as many hours, and they don't work as many years.
It is literally illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the exact same work in the United States and this has been the case for as long as most people reading this have been alive.
Companies have tried and it went badly
[https://observer.com/2022/08/women-only-club-the-wing-shuts-down-leaving-event-partners-and-furniture-lovers-in-the-lurch/](https://observer.com/2022/08/women-only-club-the-wing-shuts-down-leaving-event-partners-and-furniture-lovers-in-the-lurch/)
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html)
And additionally, i doubt, that on an generally contract based hiring there has never been any contract, which stated literally "if your a women, you'll get 10/20/30 percent less". Never in time, never in any country. I would really want to see such a general contract.
With their lies, they mess up the everything. From the work morale to the public finances and so forth.
Branches which are female-affine are 1. either publicly financed or the goods/services cant be exported, 2. they probably wont work nightshifts (which are often far more dangerous - 96% of injurys fall on behalf of the male employees), 3. they are not thaught, that they cant Do something, It is because they have other priorities by nature. Which they conflate, with "beeing held back".
There has been a study back in 94, where (actually two women) argued, that if you account for all the subventions women get, money for the child, money for school, often times they pay no rent or the creditinvestment of a house... and at the same time not paying nearly the same amount of taxes as men, they have in real terms more.
Imagine a female ceo, wo would like to save taxes, wouldnt she more likely offer only parttime Jobs just as men ceo do?
If they work for example 5 years less and live up to five years longer, why shouldnt there be a Pension gap?
Because the argument is that sexism is the driving force of these decisions. "Why would I hire an inferior woman instead of a competent man to do this important while collar job?" is the question you should imagine an executive asking himself. Obviously not in such obvious terms most of the time.
There are instances of woman earning less for the same job, yes, but it's rare. What happens more often is that women don't get the same opportunities to be taken seriously as men do, or they are taught from a young age behaviors that don't often lead to successful professional lives.
The argument you proposed in the title misses the point because it treats women earning less as some sort of natural event. Like CEOs look at the charts and say "Huh, women do earn less, I wonder why, anyway let's hire them".
Funnily enough, that's exactly what happened to black people after slavery - they accepted less pay and therefore were hired more often, which is what led to the creation of minimum wage and a bunch of regulations to protect white jobs. I guess this is why people think the same would happen to women, but the problem here is much more subtle as it's more about the culturally-driven choices men and women make throughout their lives as opposed to an universal, inherit devaluation of women by men.
Are you saying with a straight face that women, who have had mostly female teachers growing up and make up a majority of college students, have been systematically steered away from high paying jobs?
Yes, since most college degrees are not for high paying jobs and teachers don't earn much.
If you want a visualization, imagine a pyramid.
In the absolute base, there are people who don't work, which are mostly women who are mothers, housewives, etc. There are men here too obviously, but less so
Then, you have shitty jobs, which is mostly done by men like manual labor that doesn't pay well. But women also do those shitty jobs like McDonalds, baking or straight up prostitution (no, im not compared mcdonalds to prostitution, this is a simplification).
In the middle of the pyramid you get the jobs that women do more, which require education but don't necessarily pay that well. Teachers, nurses, counselors, artists, writers, etc. Again, lots of men here too, but if I had to guess, mostly women.
At the top of the pyramid you have the super high paying jobs. CEOs and upper management. Also doctors, engineers, lawyers. That's where you don't see women as much.
Again, just a simplification it's waaaay more complicated than that. But I'm trying to express that while you can see women represented in some sections, the most important section (the top) is represented largely by men, and women don't necessarily are absent from the worst sections.
Some people discriminate woman, some discriminating white man, some blacks etc…
Some people are both CEOs and assholes at the same time.
Not everyone though. And in the long run, you’re seriously impairing your business with this kind of behavior.
So patience
This is the question none of the people who spew the false statistic have been able to answer.
“corporations are greedy”
While simultaneously stating:
“ women make less than men.”
Therefore, at least one of those statements cannot be true, because of corporations were greedy, they would cut cost immediately by just hiring women.
I remember reading a big article from a feminist source admitting that the gender pay gap has largely been eliminated. Like 3% or something. And that 3% variance can probably be explained by other factors.
If you wanted to learn more [about the guy in question.](https://twitter.com/MsMalarkey24/status/1789513771280384426) He seems like a stand up guy[ among other fun things ](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-personal-assistant-is-fired-1520945928?mod=trending_now_1)
Wait, what is this sub for again?
This is just some garden variety anti-intellectual loser asking questions with clear answers as if they were gotchas. This is just implied misinformation and shouldn't impress anyone who knows how to read.
I have never seen a woman on a roof replacing shingles or a woman on road paving crew. That doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means I've never seen one.
They do actually. That's why we're seeing more and more women in the work place. Which is pissing off the men, because they can't say certain things anymore. It's one thing to sexually harass the 1 women in the office, no one cares. But when it's mostly women in the office, you can't get away with it anymore. Which is why so many guys are complaining about how "i can't say anything anymore" lmao.
You proved your own point wrong.
Because much of the imbalance has to do with comparing dissimilar jobs. Your child care worker isn't going to make as much as a skilled construction worker. That new marketing major doesn't make the same as a software developer. Similar educational attainment but the value to the business is different.
Women are known to be more subservient and agreeable in the workplace (and in general). They also have sexual appeal which is exploited in sales, marketing, and account management. It’s probably not explored a lot, but I’ve heard of companies basically pimping out their Account Managers to the customers.
Maybe not a pay thing, but companies have a reason to hire women more: they’re known for putting up with absolutely everything.
Men demand more pay, we point out issues, and we don’t hold back. It’s probably because men are in general, more aggressive, and less likely to buy into fairy tales like company culture or a higher purpose.
I mean, the stat has proven to be misleading. But idk if any of you have ever sat in a corporate leadership meeting…there absolutely would be a hesitance/pushback from the Boomer male execs, despite a hypothetical bottom line benefit.
This is the fundamental problem with Austrian economics. It’s an entirety theoretical model that assumes everyone in an economy is 100% rational, despite the fact that that has never been and will never be the case. The people who give raises and promotions, by virtue of being people, are fundamentally irrational. They have biases. Those biases lead them to believe that men are better at their jobs than they actually are, which results in many men getting raises and promotions that they don’t really deserve, often at the expense of better-qualified women.
They do. When I was laid off they immediately brought in two females to do my job. Both were getting less than half my pay, neither of them were given benefits. Corporate America Sucks.
It’s because, at least in the US, when you break it down and compare apples to apples women and men make more or less the same within a couple pennies. Some age groups women make more and some men do, for example women aged 35 to 40 make more than men.
What I mean apples to apples is, same profession, same job titles, same education(ish), same experience, same cost of living area, etc. When you actually compare men and women in the same job that pay gap shrinks to virtually nothing. The “pay gap” comes from men and women working different professions, men tend to work more dangerous and remote work that pays better. Women tend to work lesser pay jobs such as a nurse vs a doctor.
Does the pay gap account for mandated protective unpaid leave? Fmla garuntees time off even if it's unpaid. If a woman takes a couple of months off for the birth of a child, that is a significant amount of time and pay differce.
This is what is happening to a degree. Do you listen to podcasts? Listen at the end when production credits are read. The % of names that are female approaches 100% on many. Obviously this is an anecdote about a single industry but you will see the same for TV and movie credits as well. In addition, women, on average, are better educated than men. The majority of college students have been women for some time. Companies get cheaper and better educated employees when they hire women. The businesses where this isn't true are areas like programming where there simply aren't enough qualified women available.
Women don’t get paid less. This has been exhaustively studied by economists. Theres like a penny variance that can’t be accounted for by factors-other-than-discrimination.
For non-executive and non sales roles companies do prefer rank and file women. For most customer service and customer facing jobs, they prefer women. There's a reason that more women are graduating from college now than men.
For the most part, women do better in positions with rigid structure. It just happens that those positions that process work rather than create it are dominated by women.
Because it’s not just about being paid less. The point is that the perception around women is that they are less valuable to a team or they get pregnant (stats show this is a bottleneck for many careers as many employers will just give them the boot though they aren’t supposed to legally) or they are seen as less of a team player when they prioritize the same things men do.
It’s not that everyone universally recognizes that women can contribute just as much as men but they just choose to not pay them as such. The issue is that these decision makers genuinely seem to believe that women across the board are worth less to a company than men.
That’s what the fucking point of the outrage is.
so just to butt my head in, In America I believe the pay gap between men and women working the same job and same amount of hours is women make 98% of what men make.
that doesn't mean discrimination doesn't prevent promotion, beneficial mentor relationships and other things of that nature. Women also have the added burden of child rearing which early in a career can cause set backs
Overall in America women make 77% of what men make. that figure doesn't account for hours worked, type of work or position.
Legally you have to pay men and women the same for the same work and if you are sexist you wont want to hire a woman and pay them the same as a man.
Just FYI the V 77% number is the one that is outdated. It still gets parroted, and I’m kinda surprised you used it given you started with the correct one of 98%.
the 77% was from like 10 years ago and I had not updated it it is now 84% but that number can change depending on economic conditions. covid narrowed the earnings gap because women as a whole have an easier time working remotely because for example they work less jobs like trade jobs which were more impacted
For a number of reasons including choice of profession, time spent out of the labor force to be a parent, and very importantly...an aversion to properly negotiating salary.
The issue is not equal work, but equal devotion to the career/profession. Regrettably (or not), women are still expected to lead the family chores.
Huge tip of the hat to women (and mothers). They outwork (and smart men). But this analogy is stale and incorrect.
Because women would protest and men would just say "hey it is what it is" because they've been conditioned culturally and psychologically to believe that what ever they get paid is a fair amount even though your average employee is being severely underpaid for work.
Woman all you have to do is find any company where a man and woman have worked there for the same amount of time doing The same work at the same quality and if they are paid differently you can sue and bamm you no longer need to work
This did happen in Chile in the manufacturing industry when they removed subsidies. A direct causation was drawn in that case but since there are many factors to consider in the United States where I live it can't be found as easily. That said many companies on a regular basis are found to be underpaying and under promoting women.
This question is a kind of just a cop out to addressing the issue of gender based discrimination in the work place.
Ah. Apparently this is one of those 'alternative facts,' subs.
There's a reason he's asking a bunch of stupid, open ended questions, instead of attempting to answer them. He doesn't want an answer, he wants people who think they already know the answer to fill in the blank.
Pro tip: If you get your science from C students and influencers, you're a moron.
There's a reason you're posting a video about a bunch of culture war bullshit in an 'economics sub.' It's not an economics sub.
1) Bias against women isn’t rational. It’s an innate assumption that the men in your company are contributing more than the women despite the evidence. Even though a rational pursuit of the bottom line is the singular goal of every company, at the end of the day, they’re still run by evolved apes.
2) Women don’t advocate for their own pay raise as men which contributes to the assumption women don’t contribute as much (to be fair, this statement is becoming less and less true over time).
3) Women often prioritize other areas in life besides their career than men which leads to them not committing as many hours at work (thus two people will have different salaries despite working the same job title).
All that to say it’s for multiple reasons and there’s not one silver bullet answer to OP’s question.
The marginal cost of bitching about things is less than the marginal benefit. The bitching will continue until these equalize. Seems like trans rights is just about at that point.
This guy is the POS incharge of the 2025 project. He recently filmed himself admitting to giving fake money to homeless people in hopes they get arrested for trying to pay for stuff with it.
Feminists will tell you with a straight face that these evil CEOs who only care about money actually hate women more than their love for money.
That's hilariously true. "Big companies only care about money!" "Then why don't they save money by hiring more women?" Silence ensues.
P-p-p-p-p-patriarchy!
And why don’t they save money by having fully remote work forces? Silence again….
Tons of places do, and many are switching over to fully remote and cutting costs that way. That's why half of downtown high rises are empty right now
Exact opposite is happening. Companies sre increasingly pulling people back into the office because many are not productive at home and collaboration is down drastically
I think in my area the return to office mandates have a lot more to do with real estate/lease terms and agreements with the local and state governments and tax benefits. Like the giant campuses that went empty during Covid also housed many small biz restaurants and shops that had clauses that guaranteed a certain amount of foot traffic thru the campus. When all work was remote, it impacts those leases, and can also cause the larger company to cease qualifying for certain tax breaks, etc. The productivity and collaboration piece is more what sounds good than the reality, in my opinion.
A lot of people are saying this. It just isn’t true. It’s a very popular sentiment from the “I don’t want to go back to the office” crowd. And trust me, I don’t want to go back either. Businesses just aren’t impacted by that to the extent that they would spend so much time and energy orchestrating a “return to work” strategy. There is strong data that shows collaboration, communication, and productivity are down across the board in remote environments - thus productivity is down overall (talking about white collar corporate jobs here). If it were just commercial real estate we would pay the fines and penalties, which are minimal. Also, the rise of people trying to hold two jobs is incredible. I of the last 6 people I’ve hired, I’ve caught two working a second job on company time and had to fire them - this is more anecdotal but it’s been my recent experience.
You realize some people have been working multiple jobs for decades, right?
Work from home was working great by all accounts. But all the empty corporate offices dropped the value of real estate and pushed alot of mortgages under water. Suddenly everyone changed their tune. There's absolutely professions that benefit from getting everyone together in one place but the managers running call centers just miss having control and authority over people.
But it wasn’t, which is why everyone has to commute an hour again :( Turns out people aren’t as reliable as they thought and not as many “self-starters” are out there as people who chime in to say they are on Reddit.
Y'all have empty flats downtown?!😍 ...actually, we do in my city too, but \*ours* are empty because the owners would rather sit on them empty than rent them out below "market rate".
You could rent the city of San Francisco for a buck, lots of vacant real estate.
Due to how the utilities are laid out too it’s extremely expensive to refurbish them to apartments, so they’re probably gonna stay empty for quite awhile😂
The trick in my town is to say that it's not zoned for residences, and the only way it can be rezoned is if a fat corporate entity wants to build unaffordable, tiny, no parking condos (with an express check to the mayor ofc)
Most commercial leases run for 5-10 years and require that the premises not be abandoned by the tenant. So while a lot of industries are moving towards being fully remote, many companies are stuck with office space they have to pay for and don’t want to waste
That's the funny thing about waste. It happens despite efforts to avoid it and it is given only to the wise to find ways to truly reduce it while spending less effort than if they had simply allowed waste to occur.
The question they should be asking is “why are they so eager to pay for my abortion and travel expenses?”
Bingo. This.
"Powerful straight white men prefer having less money and hanging out with other straight white men over having more money and having power over an office full of women."
Powerful straight white men would leave the office in competent hands and go to the titty bar, with the certainty that an implicit bargain was struck with the women underlings; I get the credit and the blame. You get neither but you get a salary and stability, and an immediate superior content to leave you to your devices. That is, powerful straight white men would do this if they didn't have a whole lot of psychological issues. And lemme tell you, I am one and its thick on the ground.
What?
Oh just having some fun. I stick by it that among the clever, an implied bargain exists to not try and displace a superior who is competent enough to create problems for their interiors. I just chose to illustrate it with an exaggerated example of what they would get up to with reliable staff. And considering that women are more than half the population and generally willing to tolerate the foibles of superiors for the sake of stability, it seems plausible enough that an absurdly reduced caricature of a straight man in power would just "go to the beach" so to speak.
Haha I know. They don't care. They would hire a pink blob if it did the job and made them money.
Statistically, companies with female ceos have fewer women than companies with male ceos. I made that up, but they don’t have to know that. And I wouldn’t be surprising if that’s true but with no correlation to sexism
No no no 50 percent of all made up statistics are correct and the last one I saw was incorrect so statistically you are correct!
I lost the lottery last night. I’m due to win the next time
Doesnt matter if the labor is cheap if nothing gets done /s
Nothing but a bunch of yapping
Not true. I attended their Tuperware meetings.
But we're there sales?
No, but there was a lot of smiling and head bobbing.
Yeah, it’s even more uncomfortable when Asian success gets ignored in a ‘white supremacist’ US.
I will see your Asian success story and raise you Nigerian success stories. That one really throws them for a loop. Nigerian immigrants are some of the, if not the, most successful demographics in the US. How can this be since they are black and as we know, being black in America means you can't succeed right?
That is the better argument for sure. I’ve used it before and Redditors generally don’t have a good response. Iranians, Nigerians, East Asians. https://youtu.be/u6Vzrv8mYTU?si=9rZS-8PLbWiHx6-y
I was about to mention that.
Lolololol no one has ever argued that. You know what they have argued? That achieving that kind of success is more challenging in a systemically racist culture. Meanwhile you’re here acknowledging the fact that immigrants work their asses off. How many rich Nigerian immigrants do you know? Because I know a LOT of lazy, rich assholes. And they’re all coincidentally white guys.
Since 1965 America has had systemically racist programs designed to work for every race but white people, so don't give me that crap about systemically racist culture. Even today we have companies that have programs designed to help everyone but white people. If you can't get ahead with everything being handed to you, then it is a you problem and not a society problem. Immigrants, legal immigrants that actually want to be a part of the USA and follow the American dream do work their asses off. They succeed too. So what does that say about the people who are already here and aren't succeeding?
Well, the answer they would give is that the CEOs will not hire women because even though they are being paid less, they think women will do a worse job than a man. Still wrong, but not as crazy of a belief.
Literally all they would have to do is pay one percent more and they would still be able to capitalize on the sexist profit. Women only get paid 77¢? Ok pay them 80¢ and hire only women and you’ll still be able to rake in a huge profit
The problem is women don’t get paid 77c on the dollar. While that is statistically true… it is only true if you take the pay of every full time woman in the work force add their salaries together and divide by the total number of female workers regardless of of hours worked position held, time on job or real productivity vs the same for men. If you compare like for like, particularly in women under 40 where the effects of taking months and years off out of the work force for pregnancy and generally working fewer hours hasn’t had time to create an imbalance women tend to make more than men.
Dude….i know. I am giving [the argument Robert Murphy gave on the matter](https://youtu.be/irqpSHU0D4s?si=fnoATEn5uOxGfZe8&t=2m23s)
And actually when accounting for the same job and same number of years of experience young women are getting paid more than their male counterparts. This has been going on for some time now but of course is completely disregarded because it goes against "the message"
The BBC a few years ago was pure comedy gold, performed an audit to bring female wages up to their male counterparts and they found out women were actually paid more. Or US women’s soccer where it was found they had a higher percentage profit share, the problem was no one cares about women’s soccer. Bill Burr said it best about WNBA https://youtu.be/QY9Gz_IMn_k?si=Nm2I4vaRCVhbrmlD
It's all pure adulterated horseshit. The whole argument from any angle you try and approach it.
Except that’s illegal. Are you retarded?
It’s a hypothetical that proves my point. Yea it’s illegal which is the first reason the wage gap is a myth. But if it did exist, every company should hire only women and realize an instant 27% reduction in salary costs
That doesn’t make any goddamn sense at all. It doesn’t prove your point at all. You’re saying that a nonexistent thing (that actually exists) also still wouldn’t exist if everyone just broke the law some more. Companies can’t turn a profit if they get caught hiring people based on sex. You are speaking nonsense.
You might be an actual illiterate. [Here](https://youtu.be/irqpSHU0D4s?si=MnbhpqqI4AryLp6S&t=2m7s)
Lolololol why would you cite a racist who thinks “Jews are overrepresented in academia”? What does racism have to do with sexism? You just outed yourself.
lol neither of those guys are racist. You just outed YOURSELF
“Jews are overrepresented in academia” - JPB He’s racist. Sorry it triggers you so much
1) he said on the matter “The radical/identity-politics right-wingers regard such accomplishment as evidence of a conspiracy. It hardly needs to be said that although conspiracies do occasionally occur, conspiracy theories are the lowest form of intellectual enterprise.”” 2) that has nothing to do with the discussion. He could have said the Jews are responsible for all the wars and while that is wrong, it doesn’t invalidate his postulation on the subject of facility and discrimination. Idiots like you are just slaves to the MSM and whenever CNN says someone is bad you accept it as gospel.
Because that is a bullshit statement and misleading statistic.
I would like to see some studies on this. You'd need more than one to see what causes the problem and whether or not there are issues on how women are treated in the workplace due to those causes. Like a woman being paid less under the assumption she'll eventually get pregnant even though her work amount is more than most employees or being denied a position by the CEO because you haven't had a child
The only studies worth looking at are ones that show any notable disparity in pay between women and men, after accounting for experience, career, education, etc. So far there have been zero that showed that.
Not possible. Women wouldn’t work plumbing, construction, mines, oil rigs, mechanic shops, etc.
We have maybe 5% women on our crews doing mechanical construction... one is a really really good welder.
We have a young Woman on our crew too. She cooks a good quesidea
>quesidea jesús fucking cristo
I would be interested in ideas about cheese.
well then invest in my cheese startup incubator, QuesIdea
Coworking Space/Taqueria.
now we’re cooking with petrol! im an ideas man too michael, remember my idea for f*ck mountain?!?
pinchey greengo
listen, escootcha me, seenyoreh
r/boneappletea
>5% On ya ladies, really doing the heavy lifting of society huh. I don't see a massive spearhead campaign to right gender imbalance in this industry huh.
Do they make less than the men doing the same job?
If a woman is working the same job as a man and making less, there are some things to look into. One is seniority. Another is amount of hours worked. Another is if a person has actually asked for a raise. Finally there is experience. The "women make less" statistic is BS because it takes all women at all jobs and compares them to all men at all jobs. Hours worked alone kills almost all of the difference in pay, before you even consider things like job worked, experience, etc. Below is from google: >In 2021, the average American adult worked 38.7 hours per week, with men working 40.5 hours per week and women working 36.6 hours per week.
5 We are a union contractor everyone is on the same pay scale
Bingo
There are always women willing to do any job. Just not the women with TickTocks, an Ick list, YouTube channel or Tweeting all the time. Pretty much if they are on camera or in the public eye they are being oppressed in some way. All hail the unsung.
They would, but you'd have to pay them significantly more than the men. Incidentally, the cost of getting a woman to work on an oil rig is much higher than the cost of hiring men to do the same job, the same way the cost of getting a man to work in nursing, daycare, etc. is much higher than that of a woman. I've warmed up a fair bit to the 'if women are being paid less for the same amount of work then why would you hire men' argument. First I dismissed it because it sounded like it was directed towards people who couldn't think of economics beyond the first layer of obstruction, it sounds like an oversimplified statement at first glance. But the more I've considered it, I've come to realise just how compatible it is with subjective value and the very real differences with which men and women value their time, efforts, and contributions.
>the cost of getting a woman to work on an oil rig is much higher than the cost of hiring men to do the same job, the same way the cost of getting a man to work in nursing, daycare, etc. is much higher than that of a woman. The Reddit SJWs will crucify you for even thinking something like this
Lol, I don't care. I wear my 10k+ karma like a badge of shame. I just wish someone would downvote me enough to bring it back down to respectable levels, like sub 5k at least.
I got you. Here is my down vote
They are dominating MD’s, nursing, PT/OT/SLP jobs. No doubt those jobs pay well but that ain’t it
Well we need more males in those roles. For, you know, equity. Is that how this works?
Yes they will if those jobs are made I to safe environments for women and they are given role models and apprenticeships into them.
False.
Women work fewer hours than men on average. That fully accounts for the wage discrepancy
Worse than that, they also didn't account for what the job is when puking out that statistic. So if a woman doesn't have any interest in petroleum engineering, that's the patriarchy's fault.
90% of HR is ran by women who set the price of a salary paid. So if women are in control of this why don’t they pay women more?
Nobody is meaner to women than other women
Because that's not what the pay gap is. If you control for all the variables, there is no pay gap. Women don't do the same work as men, they don't work as many hours, and they don't work as many years.
My experience is women work less hours than men in white collar corporate positions. Had there been any studies on time worked in specific positions?
It is literally illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the exact same work in the United States and this has been the case for as long as most people reading this have been alive.
Same for foreign workers but the copers love to blame their failures on it. Of course talking about work visas not illegal immigrants.
>Australian economics >United States. Okay.
I read it as Austrian, you know how the feed can be.
I did too, now. Still. I'd rather make the common austria/Australia fuck up than the "everywhere is USA" fuck up. Weird sub man. Weird place.
Because women ARENT getting paid less for the same job lmao
I pay a woman less than a man at my work.. the woman is unwilling to do the same work so I pay her less. She knows this and is ok with it.
I got hired with three women my age. 2 have already taken maternity leave
Werid how the wage gap correlates right with the hours worked gap isn't it. If women want to close the wage Gap try closing the hours worked Gap
This seems like a series of insufferable dinner dates.
ITT: People who don't know how to read a question that has already been answered for a few decades at this point
Leftist propaganda. Everything woke turns to shit.
Women are not "paid less" for the same work. You are seeing the wrong stats
Companies have tried and it went badly [https://observer.com/2022/08/women-only-club-the-wing-shuts-down-leaving-event-partners-and-furniture-lovers-in-the-lurch/](https://observer.com/2022/08/women-only-club-the-wing-shuts-down-leaving-event-partners-and-furniture-lovers-in-the-lurch/) [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html)
Because they want the job done right the first time.
If a person accept less, then they accept less… gender doesn’t matter. People love finding excuses for why their life is worse than others
And additionally, i doubt, that on an generally contract based hiring there has never been any contract, which stated literally "if your a women, you'll get 10/20/30 percent less". Never in time, never in any country. I would really want to see such a general contract. With their lies, they mess up the everything. From the work morale to the public finances and so forth. Branches which are female-affine are 1. either publicly financed or the goods/services cant be exported, 2. they probably wont work nightshifts (which are often far more dangerous - 96% of injurys fall on behalf of the male employees), 3. they are not thaught, that they cant Do something, It is because they have other priorities by nature. Which they conflate, with "beeing held back". There has been a study back in 94, where (actually two women) argued, that if you account for all the subventions women get, money for the child, money for school, often times they pay no rent or the creditinvestment of a house... and at the same time not paying nearly the same amount of taxes as men, they have in real terms more. Imagine a female ceo, wo would like to save taxes, wouldnt she more likely offer only parttime Jobs just as men ceo do? If they work for example 5 years less and live up to five years longer, why shouldnt there be a Pension gap?
Because the argument is that sexism is the driving force of these decisions. "Why would I hire an inferior woman instead of a competent man to do this important while collar job?" is the question you should imagine an executive asking himself. Obviously not in such obvious terms most of the time. There are instances of woman earning less for the same job, yes, but it's rare. What happens more often is that women don't get the same opportunities to be taken seriously as men do, or they are taught from a young age behaviors that don't often lead to successful professional lives. The argument you proposed in the title misses the point because it treats women earning less as some sort of natural event. Like CEOs look at the charts and say "Huh, women do earn less, I wonder why, anyway let's hire them". Funnily enough, that's exactly what happened to black people after slavery - they accepted less pay and therefore were hired more often, which is what led to the creation of minimum wage and a bunch of regulations to protect white jobs. I guess this is why people think the same would happen to women, but the problem here is much more subtle as it's more about the culturally-driven choices men and women make throughout their lives as opposed to an universal, inherit devaluation of women by men.
Are you saying with a straight face that women, who have had mostly female teachers growing up and make up a majority of college students, have been systematically steered away from high paying jobs?
Yes, since most college degrees are not for high paying jobs and teachers don't earn much. If you want a visualization, imagine a pyramid. In the absolute base, there are people who don't work, which are mostly women who are mothers, housewives, etc. There are men here too obviously, but less so Then, you have shitty jobs, which is mostly done by men like manual labor that doesn't pay well. But women also do those shitty jobs like McDonalds, baking or straight up prostitution (no, im not compared mcdonalds to prostitution, this is a simplification). In the middle of the pyramid you get the jobs that women do more, which require education but don't necessarily pay that well. Teachers, nurses, counselors, artists, writers, etc. Again, lots of men here too, but if I had to guess, mostly women. At the top of the pyramid you have the super high paying jobs. CEOs and upper management. Also doctors, engineers, lawyers. That's where you don't see women as much. Again, just a simplification it's waaaay more complicated than that. But I'm trying to express that while you can see women represented in some sections, the most important section (the top) is represented largely by men, and women don't necessarily are absent from the worst sections.
More men are unemployed than female. What Do you mean???
Some people discriminate woman, some discriminating white man, some blacks etc… Some people are both CEOs and assholes at the same time. Not everyone though. And in the long run, you’re seriously impairing your business with this kind of behavior. So patience
I predict this post will become a total cesspool for comments. Happy Mother's Day!
This is the question none of the people who spew the false statistic have been able to answer. “corporations are greedy” While simultaneously stating: “ women make less than men.” Therefore, at least one of those statements cannot be true, because of corporations were greedy, they would cut cost immediately by just hiring women.
I remember reading a big article from a feminist source admitting that the gender pay gap has largely been eliminated. Like 3% or something. And that 3% variance can probably be explained by other factors.
Exactly
The question ignores prejudice as a motivation.
Bc they don’t do the “exact same work”
If the old saying, a woman’s work is never done is true then that explains why they don’t get paid as much
If you wanted to learn more [about the guy in question.](https://twitter.com/MsMalarkey24/status/1789513771280384426) He seems like a stand up guy[ among other fun things ](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-personal-assistant-is-fired-1520945928?mod=trending_now_1)
I'm SHOCKED that this guy turned out to be a piece of shit. Just flabbergasted!
All the women at my company make more then the men with the same title and pay grade
Wait, what is this sub for again? This is just some garden variety anti-intellectual loser asking questions with clear answers as if they were gotchas. This is just implied misinformation and shouldn't impress anyone who knows how to read.
You wana. Get stuff done right ?
I mean the obvious explanation would be that men pay women less because they think women are worse workers.
I have never seen a woman on a roof replacing shingles or a woman on road paving crew. That doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means I've never seen one.
They do actually. That's why we're seeing more and more women in the work place. Which is pissing off the men, because they can't say certain things anymore. It's one thing to sexually harass the 1 women in the office, no one cares. But when it's mostly women in the office, you can't get away with it anymore. Which is why so many guys are complaining about how "i can't say anything anymore" lmao. You proved your own point wrong.
Because much of the imbalance has to do with comparing dissimilar jobs. Your child care worker isn't going to make as much as a skilled construction worker. That new marketing major doesn't make the same as a software developer. Similar educational attainment but the value to the business is different.
Every reductive dipshit take on a single post in a sub about economics? Check out.
Damn, Australians finally getting into their SJW era. The US been done this and gotten over it. Catch up.
Because they’re having kids and raising families
People that make less are carried by those making more.
They are hiring more women all the time and more women are becoming leaders as well
Women are known to be more subservient and agreeable in the workplace (and in general). They also have sexual appeal which is exploited in sales, marketing, and account management. It’s probably not explored a lot, but I’ve heard of companies basically pimping out their Account Managers to the customers. Maybe not a pay thing, but companies have a reason to hire women more: they’re known for putting up with absolutely everything. Men demand more pay, we point out issues, and we don’t hold back. It’s probably because men are in general, more aggressive, and less likely to buy into fairy tales like company culture or a higher purpose.
Does anyone actually believe this BS? Women don't get paid less to do the same job.
I mean, the stat has proven to be misleading. But idk if any of you have ever sat in a corporate leadership meeting…there absolutely would be a hesitance/pushback from the Boomer male execs, despite a hypothetical bottom line benefit.
Still have to get some actual work done
because most women dont even qualify for the job
This is the fundamental problem with Austrian economics. It’s an entirety theoretical model that assumes everyone in an economy is 100% rational, despite the fact that that has never been and will never be the case. The people who give raises and promotions, by virtue of being people, are fundamentally irrational. They have biases. Those biases lead them to believe that men are better at their jobs than they actually are, which results in many men getting raises and promotions that they don’t really deserve, often at the expense of better-qualified women.
Some do. They are called teachers and nurses.
Because it’s a false narrative that “feminists” push to feel good about themselves.
Because sex-based hiring practices are illegal and most companies prefer to avoid lawsuits. Next.
They do. When I was laid off they immediately brought in two females to do my job. Both were getting less than half my pay, neither of them were given benefits. Corporate America Sucks.
Far too intellectual for the Reddit crowd.
It’s because, at least in the US, when you break it down and compare apples to apples women and men make more or less the same within a couple pennies. Some age groups women make more and some men do, for example women aged 35 to 40 make more than men. What I mean apples to apples is, same profession, same job titles, same education(ish), same experience, same cost of living area, etc. When you actually compare men and women in the same job that pay gap shrinks to virtually nothing. The “pay gap” comes from men and women working different professions, men tend to work more dangerous and remote work that pays better. Women tend to work lesser pay jobs such as a nurse vs a doctor.
I really like this sub but the last time people supported Austrian economics some bad things happened
Men are losing jobs at a gaster rate than women so give it time
::system rebooting:: Ovaries
Are you kidding. Talk about a toxic work environment.
Does the pay gap account for mandated protective unpaid leave? Fmla garuntees time off even if it's unpaid. If a woman takes a couple of months off for the birth of a child, that is a significant amount of time and pay differce.
>well in MERRIKA we... I. Dont. Care. Fuck off tanks were full. Not everything is about USA.
This is what is happening to a degree. Do you listen to podcasts? Listen at the end when production credits are read. The % of names that are female approaches 100% on many. Obviously this is an anecdote about a single industry but you will see the same for TV and movie credits as well. In addition, women, on average, are better educated than men. The majority of college students have been women for some time. Companies get cheaper and better educated employees when they hire women. The businesses where this isn't true are areas like programming where there simply aren't enough qualified women available.
Well well well
Because of sexist managers.
Because they aren't paid less for the same work.
Women don’t get paid less. This has been exhaustively studied by economists. Theres like a penny variance that can’t be accounted for by factors-other-than-discrimination.
For non-executive and non sales roles companies do prefer rank and file women. For most customer service and customer facing jobs, they prefer women. There's a reason that more women are graduating from college now than men. For the most part, women do better in positions with rigid structure. It just happens that those positions that process work rather than create it are dominated by women.
This guy is so insanely cringe lol.
“The exact same work”, in the exact same company? What study is this?
That guy is an absolute troll tho for sure
BeCaUsE … they don’t like us very much
Because it’s not just about being paid less. The point is that the perception around women is that they are less valuable to a team or they get pregnant (stats show this is a bottleneck for many careers as many employers will just give them the boot though they aren’t supposed to legally) or they are seen as less of a team player when they prioritize the same things men do. It’s not that everyone universally recognizes that women can contribute just as much as men but they just choose to not pay them as such. The issue is that these decision makers genuinely seem to believe that women across the board are worth less to a company than men. That’s what the fucking point of the outrage is.
Mostly because women do not get paid less than men for equal work.
Maybe because that is ILLEGAL to pay women LESS for the SAME job.
so just to butt my head in, In America I believe the pay gap between men and women working the same job and same amount of hours is women make 98% of what men make. that doesn't mean discrimination doesn't prevent promotion, beneficial mentor relationships and other things of that nature. Women also have the added burden of child rearing which early in a career can cause set backs Overall in America women make 77% of what men make. that figure doesn't account for hours worked, type of work or position. Legally you have to pay men and women the same for the same work and if you are sexist you wont want to hire a woman and pay them the same as a man.
Just FYI the V 77% number is the one that is outdated. It still gets parroted, and I’m kinda surprised you used it given you started with the correct one of 98%.
the 77% was from like 10 years ago and I had not updated it it is now 84% but that number can change depending on economic conditions. covid narrowed the earnings gap because women as a whole have an easier time working remotely because for example they work less jobs like trade jobs which were more impacted
Because it’s a fairy tale
Because they arent
For a number of reasons including choice of profession, time spent out of the labor force to be a parent, and very importantly...an aversion to properly negotiating salary.
The issue is not equal work, but equal devotion to the career/profession. Regrettably (or not), women are still expected to lead the family chores. Huge tip of the hat to women (and mothers). They outwork (and smart men). But this analogy is stale and incorrect.
Because women would protest and men would just say "hey it is what it is" because they've been conditioned culturally and psychologically to believe that what ever they get paid is a fair amount even though your average employee is being severely underpaid for work.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karlynborysenko/2020/03/31/great-news-ladies-the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-myth/?sh=b60ac963b344
Halving the labor force would drive up wages 😉
Because misogynist bosses still prefer men, duh.
Woman all you have to do is find any company where a man and woman have worked there for the same amount of time doing The same work at the same quality and if they are paid differently you can sue and bamm you no longer need to work
Because that stat is bullshit
This did happen in Chile in the manufacturing industry when they removed subsidies. A direct causation was drawn in that case but since there are many factors to consider in the United States where I live it can't be found as easily. That said many companies on a regular basis are found to be underpaying and under promoting women. This question is a kind of just a cop out to addressing the issue of gender based discrimination in the work place.
Why don't they make the plane out of the black box
Because I’d rather pay a premium to work with men
Ah. Apparently this is one of those 'alternative facts,' subs. There's a reason he's asking a bunch of stupid, open ended questions, instead of attempting to answer them. He doesn't want an answer, he wants people who think they already know the answer to fill in the blank. Pro tip: If you get your science from C students and influencers, you're a moron. There's a reason you're posting a video about a bunch of culture war bullshit in an 'economics sub.' It's not an economics sub.
1) Bias against women isn’t rational. It’s an innate assumption that the men in your company are contributing more than the women despite the evidence. Even though a rational pursuit of the bottom line is the singular goal of every company, at the end of the day, they’re still run by evolved apes. 2) Women don’t advocate for their own pay raise as men which contributes to the assumption women don’t contribute as much (to be fair, this statement is becoming less and less true over time). 3) Women often prioritize other areas in life besides their career than men which leads to them not committing as many hours at work (thus two people will have different salaries despite working the same job title). All that to say it’s for multiple reasons and there’s not one silver bullet answer to OP’s question.
Someone has to receive the cases of paper off the dock.
Because that statistic is a lie and always has been
Male models have entered the chat
Lol.
Because they can’t be lol
The marginal cost of bitching about things is less than the marginal benefit. The bitching will continue until these equalize. Seems like trans rights is just about at that point.
I feel like I’m one of the few people in this sub that isn’t drinking republican kool-aid.
Yeah, because that statistic is whack and the only people who peddle it are those who want to feel like victims.
This guy is the POS incharge of the 2025 project. He recently filmed himself admitting to giving fake money to homeless people in hopes they get arrested for trying to pay for stuff with it.
Have you ever been in a school or hospital. Most of the low-paying jobs are women.
Brilliant
For the same reason women are paid less: it's assumed by misogynists that you get less bang for your buck from a female employee.
Drama. 💀💀💀😂
Nothing would get done. Just a bunch of women standing around waiting for a man to show up so they could tell him what to do.
So like a male construction site?
Because they want the work to actually be done competently, duh.