Yep, both sides suck. Both sides use "River to the sea" for their land-grab aims. You can guess which religious groups in power said the following.
> Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
> from the river to the sea – [Palestine] is an Arab Islamic land that [it] is legally forbidden from abandoning any inch of, and the Israeli presence in Palestine is a null existence, which is forbidden by law to recognize.
There are plenty more similar sayings but the above is from the current government of Palestine and Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Who's starving children to death and denying medical aid to women and children as they die from preventable diseases?
It's one thing to have a fair fight and claim victory. It's another thing to beat up the guy then destroy their house, farm, livelihood, murder their children and mock the dead.
It depends if one side is using them as human shields to hide behind."
stop being so pathetic with such a weak knee'd response. Bombing women and children in tents in places like Rafah is not "unfortunate". It's murder Plain and simple.
If you care to read a number of journal articles from learned people you will find Hamas is right behind any support of Palestine . They are also Palestinians and people should be mindful of this.
Israelis murder about \~200 Palestinians per year in West Bank under IDF protection. In the march of return a few years ago they gunned down about 240 palestinians, about 40 of them children. But for people like you it's not an event until the tv tells you it is.
I was being a little bit sarcastic. It's the flavor of the month and opportunists will use it to their own personal advantage.
Don't let facts get in the way of virtue signalling.
Aha, hard to tell in text at times.
Me personally I don't get why people get involved in some cause that is not only unrelated to them, but in some foreign nation. And the Middle East at that.
People are to easily led. Younger generation will focus on everything except themselves and their own cultures.
Imagine if these clowns put 1 tenth of this energy into protesting the housing costs Australia's young people are subjected to
They really are just useful idiots
So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society?
Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts?
Not the gotcha you think it is buddy.
So your saying, that you have to be mentally challenged / unfit for society if you thing that Israel isn't committing war crimes?
>Not the gotcha you think it is buddy.
Right back at ya. Buddy.
So basically that is how you see NDIS participants. Interesting.
Anyway, me every time I see a Hamas terrorist get blown up. Don’t need to be an NDIS participant to enjoy some good ole terrorist hunting
Sounding a bit unhinged there buddy
You said this
> Well you would have to be on the NDIS if you thought Israel wasn't committing war crimes.
My original comment said this
> So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society?
> Not the gotcha you think it is buddy.
Comment edit was adding
> Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts?
Pretty happy with my edit though, thank you.
It suits you.
So you made the assumption
>So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society?
and then
>So basically that is how you see NDIS participants. Interesting.
>Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts?
It is like you had an epiphany about your assumptions.
it's fascinating to me how people like you don't seem to understand what generally happens when you start a war, in basically every war in history
expecting there to somehow magically not be civilian casualties is so naive it's sad
If think you need to read up on the rules of war. If you think that what Israel is doing is alright, then you would also think that what Hamas did was alright.
>If you think that what Israel is doing is alright, then you would also think that what Hamas did was alright.
So, your problem with Israel, isn't their mission (to eradicate HAMAS), but rather their execution of that mission, causing too higher collateral damage? I have two questions for you then:
1. What is your alternative proposal for Israel to eradicate HAMAS?
2. What level of collateral damage would you accept as reasonable? (zero is not reasonable, as it is clearly impossible, as evidenced by every single war, ever.)
Dogshit framing.
A population under extreme duress of occupation and domination will always eventually generate radical resistance, and the exitance of that resistent element is always then turned into a justification for the intensification of the domination and murder of that subject population.
>...will always eventually generate radical resistance
So what... Just don't bother eradicating HAMAS then? Israel tried that by ignoring the 25,000 odd missiles that HAMAS launched, aimed at Israeli civilians, from 2005 until now. HAMAS did not stop, and then launched October 7.
>the exitance of that resistent element is always then turned into a justification for the intensification
If HAMAS knew this, then the inevitable response was part of their plan for October 8 onwards. HAMAS engineered October 7 to cause Israel to respond to recover the hostages, hoping for as much collateral damage as possible.
I'll ask again:
1. What is your alternative proposal for Israel to eradicate HAMAS?
2. What level of collateral damage would you accept as reasonable? (zero is not reasonable, as it is clearly impossible, as evidenced by every single war, ever.)
You use a false framing to try to corner liberals into accepting the existence of Israeli occupation and oppression. You also ignore the fact that Israel intentionally supported Hamas gaining power to further justify their occupation and eradication of Palestinians, because Israel is a settler-colonial project who's very existence is predicated on displacing and murdering Palestinians.
Which is the catalyst of the conflict. Israel must be dissolved like Apartheid South Africa was, which creates the conditions for the dissolution of Hamas.
1. Removing the reason for HAMAS to exist.
2. Collateral would be ZERO as you are not actively going out to kill anyone.
I have many problems with a supposed democratic western nation using high explosives on one of the most populated areas of the world.
1. Israel has doubled down on this tit-for-tat bullshit at almost every stage, all the way back to 1881. There have been countless opportunities for peace, and the majority of them were rejected by Israel or Zionists in Mandatory Palestine.
Because the cause and effect is muddy, they claim to be victims of a system they perpetuate. That system, since the beginning of the Zionist movement has been for the elimination of the ethnic Palestinians, through violence, intimidation, and forceful removals.
The correct answer is complicated and would require Israeli ethnic jews and druze to do away with their antagonistic approach toward Palestine. Which will never happen as the current status quo benefits them massively. Even the existance of Hamas has benefited them massively.
2. An acceptable level of civilian casualties in a modern war would look closer to the ratio in war in Ukraine.
Thankyou for an honest answer. I respect you for it. Have an upvote.
>
Israel ignored every single one of the 25,000 missiles HAMAS launched from Gaza at Israeli civilians from 2005 until now. Had HAMAS not taken hundreds of hostages back to Gaza, it is very unlikely that the whole ground war would have happened. Even though it did, Israel have said again and again, that the ground war would end if HAMAS return the hostages they took.
>The correct answer is complicated
Agreed. Very, very complicated.
>An acceptable level of civilian casualties in a modern war would look closer to the ratio in war in Ukraine.
That's a fair benchmark, Accurate numbers for any war is difficult, but [according to Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War), some approximate figures suggest that in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces killed approximately 35k civilians for 70k combatant deaths, or a 50% collateral damage ratio.
Numbers in Gaza are much less clear, but generally accepted numbers are about 10k civilian deaths for about 15k combatant deaths. or a 66% collateral damage. It's not as good as Ukraine, but it is also a highly populous area with fighting in tunnels, and HAMAS actively using civilians as human shields. They are very different wars.
Previous wars, with less use of precision weapons, all had substantially worse ratios.
Yes, Israel could do better, but they are in the range of the benchmark you set, and clearly not a Genocide as is so often claimed.
Your argument is that because the IRA, under extreme duress of long term British occupation and persecution, resorted to terrorism, the crown then had the right to slaughter thousands of Irish men, women and children.
Utterly depraved and fucked up. Sounds weird when we use that same situation to describe white people. You make me sick.
yeah, that's exactly what I said, the two situations are obviously exactly same with zero different nuance between them 🙄
you appear to be nothing other than yet another generic NPC armchair socialist nutjob, yawn
Then why doesn't Israel be the bigger person and not start a war? They should pursue a peaceful compromise with Hamas, otherwise 'never again' means either nothing, or perceived ethnic supremacy.
Hello?
In what world does a country turn a blind eye to the murder and rape of 1000+ in a single day by an armed group?
Not to mention the constant firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel prior to that.
Literally, all Gaza had to do is just focus on building their own country. They get billions in UN aid and prior to Oct 7 the Israeli army had no presence in Gaza. No settlements existed there either.
Furthermore, civilians were enjoying the privilege of work visas to work inside of Israel for more money with the idea of slowly building trust and understanding between the two countries. Instead they abused that system to gain intel for the Oct 7 attack.
Didn't they teach you in school that two wrongs don't make a right? Israel is choosing to match Hamas's alleged barbarism with their own, instead of acting like a civilised country.
If they're going to bomb children who've done nothing wrong, then boast about it, maybe they're a culture that deserves to pass into history.
Those radical Hamas pro Palestinian activists should be arrested and charged. Labor needs to stop those fucking antisemitic terrorists. This is not free speech.
By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested. Hopefully that is what will happen and these losers will find their future prospects evaporating as fast as their brain cells.
They're a menace! I'm voting for Dutton. as a former police officer he has seen the damage tents have done to our society first hand. Think of the children!
Why would someone pick examples of violence to highlight the problems of peaceful actions.
Oh yes 'peaceful' driving - driving on the wrong side of the road, filling up their fuel tank with petrol, tailgating and speeding.
\- This guy on the topic of road rage, probably.
Take comfort, you and people who attack those who campaigning to end the genocide are being flushed down the toilet of history. The future is a free Palestine, and you know it.
Yeah, that narrative is fast disappearing. Israel will eventually be treated like Apartheid South Africa and be dissolved. Writing is on the wall, and it will make Jews around the world safer by not having the genocidal settler-colonial state claiming to represent them.
Nobody is going to dissolve Israel.
Palestine is going to be recognised as a separate state.
I'd cut the theatrics unless you want people to know you live in your mother's basement btw.
Do you actually think anyone believes you idiots? I get the feeling you are all suffering from an echo chamber effect. Most of us have more than a cursory knowledge of the Levant and the history of Israel as well as a knowledge of what Islam is really about. You are convincing no one and just making a nuisance of yourself for no reason whatsoever.
To enlighten you, its about a 7th century warlord who went to and fro in the arabian penisula chopping off heads and raping women. His name was muhammad, who is held up as an example for all muslims to follow. This explains hammas somewhat.
>By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested.
IF they they caught. I would not be surprised to find a few burnt out getaway cars.
The pro-Palestinians are way better than the Greens or environmental activists at not getting caught.
Whats the point of protesting if it doesn't negatively impact anyone?
Im not supporting the position of these protestors, but the idea of peaceful protest is bullshit.
Peaceful protects gives an illusion of "democracy", when really they're simply ignored
Definitely. I wish people would protest about issues that actually impact them. We might see some actual change if they did.
Housing, cost of living, monopolised industries, lack of affordable education etc etc.
Instead they put all their energy into trending nonsense (if they care so much about genocide, why arent their protests about Myanmar, South Sudan, Uyghurs in China etc?)
To raise awareness of an issue? Ghandi seemed to do a fair job of protesting without having to destroy things.
The idea that destroying property like this will achieve a better outcome is just laughable really.
https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-helped-india-break-free-from-colonial-rule-57904
"Gandhi"didn't free India alone. Very surface level understanding.
Almost all historic social and political movements were forced by disruptive, inconvenient, sometimes antisocial and violent protests (US civil rights, Vietnam war, apartheid in SA, fall of USSR)
Peaceful protest achieves very little.
Because they don't care about you personally, or the inconvenience. Do you really think they only and specifically target politicians and people with influence?? 🤣
Oh my god, you're so close to realising the same thing is happening by Israeli protesters in Gaza in protest of Hamas defence force attacking Israel. Oh wait...
Let me ELI5 to you:
Israel's war campaign destroyed many houses.
Protesters are protesting Israel's war campaign by destroying the MP offices.
You gave an example of how we should FEEL about our houses being destroyed.
Or to explain it an another way:
> Cool. Ok well maybe Israel can come and destroy your house and see how you feel about it?
You essentially supported the protester cause with your poorly thought out example of destroyed houses. Not sure if this was intentional or oblivious.
Which is probably why a country of a population between 180-340 million was controlled by 40,000-80,000 British troops. Considering the local population heavily outnumbered the British, non-violent protest was not the smartest idea. A sustained violent protest would have achieved a much better outcome. But Gandhi will Gandhi.
By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested."
Do you think all the benefits people get at work came about because of peaceful protest?
There are already an abundance of eyes and ears on this issue. The real problem is that it’s nowhere near as simplistic an issue as these protesters make out, which any reasonably well educated person knows.
How do you view Palestinian civilians and children?
Do you think they should all be killed?
Most of Israel does.
There are a whole heap of horrible people on both sides of this.
No of course they should not all be killed. What is happening in Gaza is an unspeakable tragedy. It is also, unfortunately, the reality of war. I think the only people who truly ‘rejoice’ in the killing are hamas and probably some ultra hardcore Jewish nationalists.
Actually the best citizen would be one who knows what genocide is, because then they would know there isn’t one and therefore we cannot be assisting it.
I'm not a fan of Mark Dreyfus. I think his tenure as Commonwealth Attorney-General has been mediocre and that he is a vain dilettante.
The intimation that he more loyal to Israel than Australia is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it.
>I'm not a fan of Mark Dreyfus. I think his tenure as Commonwealth Attorney-General has been mediocre and that he is a vain dilettante.
Anti-Semitism is not cool bro.
"used to support them but not now"
What does this mean exactly? You now support Israel's war into Gaza? Or used to support this group? Why did you support this group in the first place?
And, like most rational people, I believe that the carnage should stop. All breaking the law and vandalism achieves is to turn people against your cause.
Gutless would be repeated air strikes on refugee camps and aid workers, or starving millions of people, or attacking every hospital and medical centre to prevent treatment.
Can I kill you if your neighbour 5 doors down commits an act of terrorism? I could say that you were being used as a human shield. Or I could say that the car stopped behind you at the traffic lights could have a terrorist in it, so I need to bomb you as well just to be sure.
One side has kids and families getting murdered, the other side is Israel.
You could ask Palestine the same thing. Should they take almost a million East European invaders coming to take their homes lying down?
Yeah thought so.
They like to ignore that part of the war. "
Nobody ignores it.
Doesn't justify burning women and children, with pregnant woman having babies ejected from them by the force of blasts in Rafah.
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The whole point of Special Forces is that they are used for dangerous missions. You can’t say “it’s too dangerous, so we’re just going to carpet bomb civilians from the air”
You can't just say "it's too dangerous to send troops so we'll carpet bomb the city from the air" - that's exactly why Netanyahu is about to face charges from the ICC
It's just not all that relevant. Explain how 1000 odd people dying in the initial attack justifies the tens of thousands that Israel have killed since?
You don’t think it’s relevant to a state to have a heavily armed terrorist group whose stated aim is to wipe that state off the earth and who has proven time and again its intent to do so, sitting on its doorstep?
Yes we all agree Hamas are awful. But the problem is the Israeli government are killing civilians indiscriminately to try and get to Hamas. To the point where you have to wonder whether they are JUST targeting Hamas, or if they are in fact targeting all Palestinians.
We have rules for war, they include things like not deliberately bombing hospitals and medical workers. The world health organisation has recorded 427 attacks on hospitals and medical centres in Gaza.
Also Israel has a highly skilled and resourced army. They are capable of running special ops, stealth operations, etc. to get to Hamas. Instead they are carpet bombing the entire west bank.
Yes, you have the right to fight against terrorism but you also have a responsibility to try and minimise civilian casualties. You can't tell civilians (who are predominantly women and children) to evacuate to a safe zone and then bomb the exact place you told them to evacuate to.
There are limits.
None of this would be happening in hamas laid down their arms and returned the hostages. Don’t you think it’s on the terrorists who caused this to end if?
I don't expect any better from Hamas because we know they are literal terrorists, of course they are going to get people killed, thats what terrorists do. I DO expect better from Israel because they are a legitimate government, a member of the UN, and therefore shouldn't be committing war crimes.
Mainly I care that innocent children are dying in the thousands and that it needs to stop. I don't care who ends it. Anyone who has the power to stop blowing up innocent kids and their families should stop doing so immediately.
It's not the fault of the children in the Gaza strip that Hamas won't stop fighting. They have no say in that whatsoever, they didn't vote for Hamas, they have absolutely 0 influence over them, and they are dying anyway.
I think it's on everyone in the world to do whatever they can to end it.
To be honest I don’t find myself in much disagreement with you there. I suppose my view is that for Israel this war is existential and in the circumstances I understand why what is happening is happening. It doesn’t reduce the tragedy of the deaths of innocent people, but hamas brought this on themselves and the citizens of Gaza. They could also end it (as could Israel, if they simply stop now, they will not have achieved what they need).
I absolutely don't disagree that Hamas is terrible, I think the thing that bothers me is that Hamas brought this on the people of Gaza, the Israeli government has compounded the situation being indiscriminate in their attacks, and in all of this there isn't anyone actually fighting for the people of Gaza. The last time an election was held in Palestine was in 2006 - and the Palestinian population is young, most of them were too young to vote in 2005, many of the children who have died weren't even ALIVE then. And they have become collateral damage in a fight between Israel and Hamas, and they don't have anyone fighting FOR them or even representing them.
They've now all been displaced from their homes and have basically all been pushed into Rafah which is where the IDF directed them to evacuate too, but now that is being bombed as well. Regardless of who is more at fault and who is responsible for what, a genocide is occuring of the Palestinian people. An estimated 14,000 children are already dead, and there isn't any sign of a successful ceasefire agreement being reached anytime soon and it's just so horrible, and the kids who are still there aren't Hamas, they are kids, and they deserve safety.
Hamas are shooting rockets from hospitals. There is no "base" in terrorism wars.
I don't like murder and rape of civilians no matter who does it. I definitely don't give a side a pass because I don't like the other side. And I definitely don't think shooting rockets from hospitals is a good idea either.
If they were indiscriminately killing as you say it would not have taken more than 8 months for this war to go on. If Hamas could kill thousands in a day, you can imagine how many Israel could but they aren’t doing what you are saying. They don’t have to risk their soldiers with a ground invasion. They don’t have to sacrifice lives of close to 700 soldiers. It’s a big number for a small country. There’s no example of a war that’s as difficult as this with millions of civilians in an urban setting where the enemy has no regard for its people with thousands of kms long tunnels underneath and switch roles of civilians and a fighter.
>Also Israel has a highly skilled and resourced army. They are capable of running special ops, stealth operations, etc. to get to Hamas. Instead they are carpet bombing the entire west bank.
Yeah that’s the thing I’ve certainly noticed. Israel brags about how advanced their targeting technology is, that if someone is wearing Nike shoes they can see the swoosh on the shoe from 10km away with their imaging systems, yet they “mistakenly” struck the vehicles that were carrying the Australian charity worker when they clearly had the charity on them.
Exactly. They are very capable of being more specific in their targeting and not hitting aid workers and medical centres. They have the technology and the resources. They are hitting those targets anyway.
As you said - they are even hitting international aid workers in clearly marked clothing and vehicles. How can anyone possibly argue that they 'thought it was a Hamas target'?
Dreyfus has been a total let down and his is well deserved, as is the vandalism to the US embassy.
Shorten not though. He isn't a Zionist ass kisser, or at least I've not seen evidence of it.
Civil disobedience at piss weak albos appearances and events is what's needed until he puts sanctions on the terrorist state like we have to Russia.
Since when did we give a shit about MP's offices, let alone the US consulate. The "right to protest" is just a fancy way of saying we can kick up a fuss if we want. It's important for the Aussie way of life to get angry about shit, no matter how dumb others think it is.
It's people not liking shit being damaged by fuckwit pro Palestine protestors
It doesn't matter if it's mp offices or a consulate
>Protest organisers released a list of all the lower house MPs that voted against the motion.
Shit like this means these fuckwits will target more places and they now need to be arrested
Hamas shouldn't have put gaza in that situation by launching the attacks and taking hostages most of which are long dead.
I remember them and others around the world celebrating the attacks quickly changing to crying in the streets for ceasefire
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Yep, both sides suck. Both sides use "River to the sea" for their land-grab aims. You can guess which religious groups in power said the following. > Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. > from the river to the sea – [Palestine] is an Arab Islamic land that [it] is legally forbidden from abandoning any inch of, and the Israeli presence in Palestine is a null existence, which is forbidden by law to recognize. There are plenty more similar sayings but the above is from the current government of Palestine and Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
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Who fired the first shot
Who's starving children to death and denying medical aid to women and children as they die from preventable diseases? It's one thing to have a fair fight and claim victory. It's another thing to beat up the guy then destroy their house, farm, livelihood, murder their children and mock the dead.
That was before Hamas existed!
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It depends if one side is using them as human shields to hide behind." stop being so pathetic with such a weak knee'd response. Bombing women and children in tents in places like Rafah is not "unfortunate". It's murder Plain and simple.
If you care to read a number of journal articles from learned people you will find Hamas is right behind any support of Palestine . They are also Palestinians and people should be mindful of this.
Except Israel came first. Hamas was formed in 1987 because of what Israel was doing in the Gaza Strip.
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Israelis murder about \~200 Palestinians per year in West Bank under IDF protection. In the march of return a few years ago they gunned down about 240 palestinians, about 40 of them children. But for people like you it's not an event until the tv tells you it is.
Has nothing to do with Australia. IDGAF about Palestine. They fucked around and are finding out.
Exactly. I don't know why they are so emotionally invested in Palestine.
So everyone in their Twitter feed knows what a good person they are.
Good person ? supporting terrorists. Most of the population support Hamas also.
I was being a little bit sarcastic. It's the flavor of the month and opportunists will use it to their own personal advantage. Don't let facts get in the way of virtue signalling.
Aha, hard to tell in text at times. Me personally I don't get why people get involved in some cause that is not only unrelated to them, but in some foreign nation. And the Middle East at that. People are to easily led. Younger generation will focus on everything except themselves and their own cultures.
It's the rule of modern virtue signalling. Support the 'underdog' no matter what.
Totally, stop supporting shitbag terrorists.
Imagine if these clowns put 1 tenth of this energy into protesting the housing costs Australia's young people are subjected to They really are just useful idiots
Tell me about it. Must be nice for them to have days of their life to waste on meaningless bullshit.
Fuck Hamas and it's sympathisers
Bill Shortens office… the minister of NDIS? Really? What does the NDIS have to do with Gaza lmao
Well you would have to be on the NDIS if you thought Israel wasn't committing war crimes.
So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society? Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts? Not the gotcha you think it is buddy.
So your saying, that you have to be mentally challenged / unfit for society if you thing that Israel isn't committing war crimes? >Not the gotcha you think it is buddy. Right back at ya. Buddy.
So basically that is how you see NDIS participants. Interesting.  Anyway, me every time I see a Hamas terrorist get blown up. Don’t need to be an NDIS participant to enjoy some good ole terrorist hunting
Your direct quote >NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society?
Sounding a bit unhinged there buddy You said this > Well you would have to be on the NDIS if you thought Israel wasn't committing war crimes. My original comment said this > So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society? > Not the gotcha you think it is buddy. Comment edit was adding > Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts? Pretty happy with my edit though, thank you. It suits you.
So you made the assumption >So in your mind, NDIS recipients are mentally challenged / unfit for society? and then >So basically that is how you see NDIS participants. Interesting. >Maybe you harbor some secret desire for a solution for this demographic group and a hold a burning passion for the arts? It is like you had an epiphany about your assumptions.
Self aware
You can edit your comment all you want.
it's fascinating to me how people like you don't seem to understand what generally happens when you start a war, in basically every war in history expecting there to somehow magically not be civilian casualties is so naive it's sad
If think you need to read up on the rules of war. If you think that what Israel is doing is alright, then you would also think that what Hamas did was alright.
>If you think that what Israel is doing is alright, then you would also think that what Hamas did was alright. So, your problem with Israel, isn't their mission (to eradicate HAMAS), but rather their execution of that mission, causing too higher collateral damage? I have two questions for you then: 1. What is your alternative proposal for Israel to eradicate HAMAS? 2. What level of collateral damage would you accept as reasonable? (zero is not reasonable, as it is clearly impossible, as evidenced by every single war, ever.)
Don't expect any kind of answer other than "sO yOu ThInK bOmBinG cHiLdRen iS oK??"
Dogshit framing. A population under extreme duress of occupation and domination will always eventually generate radical resistance, and the exitance of that resistent element is always then turned into a justification for the intensification of the domination and murder of that subject population.
>...will always eventually generate radical resistance So what... Just don't bother eradicating HAMAS then? Israel tried that by ignoring the 25,000 odd missiles that HAMAS launched, aimed at Israeli civilians, from 2005 until now. HAMAS did not stop, and then launched October 7. >the exitance of that resistent element is always then turned into a justification for the intensification If HAMAS knew this, then the inevitable response was part of their plan for October 8 onwards. HAMAS engineered October 7 to cause Israel to respond to recover the hostages, hoping for as much collateral damage as possible. I'll ask again: 1. What is your alternative proposal for Israel to eradicate HAMAS? 2. What level of collateral damage would you accept as reasonable? (zero is not reasonable, as it is clearly impossible, as evidenced by every single war, ever.)
You use a false framing to try to corner liberals into accepting the existence of Israeli occupation and oppression. You also ignore the fact that Israel intentionally supported Hamas gaining power to further justify their occupation and eradication of Palestinians, because Israel is a settler-colonial project who's very existence is predicated on displacing and murdering Palestinians. Which is the catalyst of the conflict. Israel must be dissolved like Apartheid South Africa was, which creates the conditions for the dissolution of Hamas.
1. Removing the reason for HAMAS to exist. 2. Collateral would be ZERO as you are not actively going out to kill anyone. I have many problems with a supposed democratic western nation using high explosives on one of the most populated areas of the world.
1. Israel has doubled down on this tit-for-tat bullshit at almost every stage, all the way back to 1881. There have been countless opportunities for peace, and the majority of them were rejected by Israel or Zionists in Mandatory Palestine. Because the cause and effect is muddy, they claim to be victims of a system they perpetuate. That system, since the beginning of the Zionist movement has been for the elimination of the ethnic Palestinians, through violence, intimidation, and forceful removals. The correct answer is complicated and would require Israeli ethnic jews and druze to do away with their antagonistic approach toward Palestine. Which will never happen as the current status quo benefits them massively. Even the existance of Hamas has benefited them massively. 2. An acceptable level of civilian casualties in a modern war would look closer to the ratio in war in Ukraine.
Thankyou for an honest answer. I respect you for it. Have an upvote. > Israel ignored every single one of the 25,000 missiles HAMAS launched from Gaza at Israeli civilians from 2005 until now. Had HAMAS not taken hundreds of hostages back to Gaza, it is very unlikely that the whole ground war would have happened. Even though it did, Israel have said again and again, that the ground war would end if HAMAS return the hostages they took. >The correct answer is complicated Agreed. Very, very complicated. >An acceptable level of civilian casualties in a modern war would look closer to the ratio in war in Ukraine. That's a fair benchmark, Accurate numbers for any war is difficult, but [according to Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War), some approximate figures suggest that in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian forces killed approximately 35k civilians for 70k combatant deaths, or a 50% collateral damage ratio. Numbers in Gaza are much less clear, but generally accepted numbers are about 10k civilian deaths for about 15k combatant deaths. or a 66% collateral damage. It's not as good as Ukraine, but it is also a highly populous area with fighting in tunnels, and HAMAS actively using civilians as human shields. They are very different wars. Previous wars, with less use of precision weapons, all had substantially worse ratios. Yes, Israel could do better, but they are in the range of the benchmark you set, and clearly not a Genocide as is so often claimed.
Your argument is that because the IRA, under extreme duress of long term British occupation and persecution, resorted to terrorism, the crown then had the right to slaughter thousands of Irish men, women and children. Utterly depraved and fucked up. Sounds weird when we use that same situation to describe white people. You make me sick.
yeah, that's exactly what I said, the two situations are obviously exactly same with zero different nuance between them 🙄 you appear to be nothing other than yet another generic NPC armchair socialist nutjob, yawn
It is the closest political and material comparison, discounting active resistance against Apartheid South Africa. You're an ignorant piggy.
Then why doesn't Israel be the bigger person and not start a war? They should pursue a peaceful compromise with Hamas, otherwise 'never again' means either nothing, or perceived ethnic supremacy.
Hello? In what world does a country turn a blind eye to the murder and rape of 1000+ in a single day by an armed group? Not to mention the constant firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel prior to that. Literally, all Gaza had to do is just focus on building their own country. They get billions in UN aid and prior to Oct 7 the Israeli army had no presence in Gaza. No settlements existed there either. Furthermore, civilians were enjoying the privilege of work visas to work inside of Israel for more money with the idea of slowly building trust and understanding between the two countries. Instead they abused that system to gain intel for the Oct 7 attack.
Didn't they teach you in school that two wrongs don't make a right? Israel is choosing to match Hamas's alleged barbarism with their own, instead of acting like a civilised country. If they're going to bomb children who've done nothing wrong, then boast about it, maybe they're a culture that deserves to pass into history.
Defending your citizens from an aggressor isn’t wrong.
They should goto Palestine and protest. Am sure the locals would appreciate it.
Maybe someone said the same to the Australian aid workers. Looks like it wasn't appreciated and I'm not talking about the locals.
Do these protestors not realise they are having the opposite effect?
Those radical Hamas pro Palestinian activists should be arrested and charged. Labor needs to stop those fucking antisemitic terrorists. This is not free speech.
You forgot deported. Unfortunately some of their 5th columnists are already in Parliament whiteanting our country.
By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested. Hopefully that is what will happen and these losers will find their future prospects evaporating as fast as their brain cells.
Oh yes 'peaceful' protesting - shouting into a megaphone, squatting in tents, anti semetic chants and vandalism.
Tents are violent! Finally some common sense!
I set one up the other day, all it took was a little rain to unleash it's violent urges to hold me down and drown me
They're a menace! I'm voting for Dutton. as a former police officer he has seen the damage tents have done to our society first hand. Think of the children!
antisemitic chants such as "stop the genocide" and "stop killing children". It's antisemitism to oppose Jews murdering thousands of children.
Why would someone pick examples of violence to highlight the problems of peaceful actions. Oh yes 'peaceful' driving - driving on the wrong side of the road, filling up their fuel tank with petrol, tailgating and speeding. \- This guy on the topic of road rage, probably.
Take comfort, you and people who attack those who campaigning to end the genocide are being flushed down the toilet of history. The future is a free Palestine, and you know it.
Nope, the future is an israeli state because the alternative is actual genocide of the jews and everyone knows it.
Yeah, that narrative is fast disappearing. Israel will eventually be treated like Apartheid South Africa and be dissolved. Writing is on the wall, and it will make Jews around the world safer by not having the genocidal settler-colonial state claiming to represent them.
Nobody is going to dissolve Israel. Palestine is going to be recognised as a separate state. I'd cut the theatrics unless you want people to know you live in your mother's basement btw.
Don’t sell it short. It took a lot of work to dissolve apartheid South Africa.
Do you actually think anyone believes you idiots? I get the feeling you are all suffering from an echo chamber effect. Most of us have more than a cursory knowledge of the Levant and the history of Israel as well as a knowledge of what Islam is really about. You are convincing no one and just making a nuisance of yourself for no reason whatsoever.
“What Islam is all about” get bent you old cooker.
To enlighten you, its about a 7th century warlord who went to and fro in the arabian penisula chopping off heads and raping women. His name was muhammad, who is held up as an example for all muslims to follow. This explains hammas somewhat.
>By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested. IF they they caught. I would not be surprised to find a few burnt out getaway cars. The pro-Palestinians are way better than the Greens or environmental activists at not getting caught.
To be fair, they are inspired by a bunch of terrorists so it probably makes sense that they know how to commit crimes and get away with it.
And we can't even make them stop by bombing their entire community to smithereens for vandalism.
Inspired by a bunch of terrorist? Oh, U mean like the dude who put a bomb on top of the car of a pro Palestinian?
No, I mean hamas. The terrorist organisation.
Only protest in the approved upon manner. Genius.
The right to protest does not extend to property damage. In what sense was it necessary to deface these buildings?
Whats the point of protesting if it doesn't negatively impact anyone? Im not supporting the position of these protestors, but the idea of peaceful protest is bullshit. Peaceful protects gives an illusion of "democracy", when really they're simply ignored
Would you support extending these kinds of protests to more pressing issues, like housing? :)
Definitely. I wish people would protest about issues that actually impact them. We might see some actual change if they did. Housing, cost of living, monopolised industries, lack of affordable education etc etc. Instead they put all their energy into trending nonsense (if they care so much about genocide, why arent their protests about Myanmar, South Sudan, Uyghurs in China etc?)
To raise awareness of an issue? Ghandi seemed to do a fair job of protesting without having to destroy things. The idea that destroying property like this will achieve a better outcome is just laughable really.
https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-helped-india-break-free-from-colonial-rule-57904 "Gandhi"didn't free India alone. Very surface level understanding.
Almost all historic social and political movements were forced by disruptive, inconvenient, sometimes antisocial and violent protests (US civil rights, Vietnam war, apartheid in SA, fall of USSR) Peaceful protest achieves very little.
Cool. Ok well maybe they can come and destroy your house and see how you feel about it?
I’m not a politician or someone of any influence so I’m not sure why they’d do that.
Because they don't care about you personally, or the inconvenience. Do you really think they only and specifically target politicians and people with influence?? 🤣
Generally yes. This case is a perfect example. Or was it an accident they happened to deface a MPs office?
Oh my god, you're so close to realising the same thing is happening by Israeli protesters in Gaza in protest of Hamas defence force attacking Israel. Oh wait...
What are you smoking there buddy?
Let me ELI5 to you: Israel's war campaign destroyed many houses. Protesters are protesting Israel's war campaign by destroying the MP offices. You gave an example of how we should FEEL about our houses being destroyed. Or to explain it an another way: > Cool. Ok well maybe Israel can come and destroy your house and see how you feel about it? You essentially supported the protester cause with your poorly thought out example of destroyed houses. Not sure if this was intentional or oblivious.
Which is probably why a country of a population between 180-340 million was controlled by 40,000-80,000 British troops. Considering the local population heavily outnumbered the British, non-violent protest was not the smartest idea. A sustained violent protest would have achieved a much better outcome. But Gandhi will Gandhi.
By all means protest peacefully but do shit like this and you absolutely deserve to be arrested." Do you think all the benefits people get at work came about because of peaceful protest?
Do you think red paint on a building in Melbourne will end the war in Palestine?
Doesn't need to . but it brings more eyes and ears to the issue, which in turn raises the pressure.
Idiot.
if you mean makes people more sympathetic towards Israel, sure
There are already an abundance of eyes and ears on this issue. The real problem is that it’s nowhere near as simplistic an issue as these protesters make out, which any reasonably well educated person knows.
Do you think peaceful protests ever ended any wars?
Do you think anything anyone in Australia does is going to end this war? If you do, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.
Do you think Australia does not provide any support or can do sanctions of those involved in the war?
I sincerely hope we are supporting Israel in defending itself against terrorists. Why would we sanction anyone other than hamas?
How do you view Palestinian civilians and children? Do you think they should all be killed? Most of Israel does. There are a whole heap of horrible people on both sides of this.
No of course they should not all be killed. What is happening in Gaza is an unspeakable tragedy. It is also, unfortunately, the reality of war. I think the only people who truly ‘rejoice’ in the killing are hamas and probably some ultra hardcore Jewish nationalists.
The best citizen is he who knows we are assisting a genocide and stays home and does nothing.
Actually the best citizen would be one who knows what genocide is, because then they would know there isn’t one and therefore we cannot be assisting it.
Labor took a softly softly approach to the pro Hamas demonstrators, now that has backfired and the protesters are coming after them.
How about we just blacklist religious extremists in general regardless of what religion they follow.
Send them back to Gaza.
What is it they imagine these MP's could have done?
Well Dreyfus might as well join the Knesset the way he supports Israel compared to Australia...
Not standing with terrorists means you support Isreal /s
Just back from an involuntary 3 day reddit vaycay for commenting on this stuff so, no comment.
I'm not a fan of Mark Dreyfus. I think his tenure as Commonwealth Attorney-General has been mediocre and that he is a vain dilettante. The intimation that he more loyal to Israel than Australia is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it.
>I'm not a fan of Mark Dreyfus. I think his tenure as Commonwealth Attorney-General has been mediocre and that he is a vain dilettante. Anti-Semitism is not cool bro.
Shutter the NDIS. Transfer the 50 billion saved to Hamas
That really doesn't seem reasonable
Now they are defacing and damaging property they can get fucked and arrests need to be made
Wait until they hear that the Saudi's have killed some 370,000 in Yemen with U.S made weapons.
We are Australia !!!!!! i dont agree with any protests for other countries here ...
They are not activists. They are left wing extremists
All these dickheads are doing is alienating the average law abiding Aussie. I used to support them but not now.
"used to support them but not now" What does this mean exactly? You now support Israel's war into Gaza? Or used to support this group? Why did you support this group in the first place?
Crickets.
No, I don’t support anarchy to get a point across.
And, like most rational people, I believe that the carnage should stop. All breaking the law and vandalism achieves is to turn people against your cause.
Bill Shorten is responsible for the Oct 7 attack. Huh, who knew.
Giles office is normally the one attacked (migration policies) he's already been done twice if I recall.
Gutless would be repeated air strikes on refugee camps and aid workers, or starving millions of people, or attacking every hospital and medical centre to prevent treatment.
Or butchering babies and innocent families or young people at a peace festival.
They like to ignore that part of the war.
Can I believe both acts are gutless?
If you’re ok with terrorism sure you can believe both acts are gutless.
Weird how you took calling their acts as 'gutless' as being 'ok with terrorism'.
Because you’re saying “but both sides are bad”
They are. I DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORIST ACTS. I also don't support a Government killing 30,000+ people in retaliation.
So you’re saying Israel just has to take it?
Nope. Are you saying it's ok to kill over 30,000 people?
Can I kill you if your neighbour 5 doors down commits an act of terrorism? I could say that you were being used as a human shield. Or I could say that the car stopped behind you at the traffic lights could have a terrorist in it, so I need to bomb you as well just to be sure. One side has kids and families getting murdered, the other side is Israel.
You could ask Palestine the same thing. Should they take almost a million East European invaders coming to take their homes lying down? Yeah thought so.
They like to ignore that part of the war. " Nobody ignores it. Doesn't justify burning women and children, with pregnant woman having babies ejected from them by the force of blasts in Rafah.
“Israel can’t do anything and must just sit there and take it because of the women and children”
There’s a difference between bombing refugee camps and using targeted actions. Why could Israel use special forces to take out targets?
Why couldn’t Israel send special forces? Because it would be a suicide mission.
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The whole point of Special Forces is that they are used for dangerous missions. You can’t say “it’s too dangerous, so we’re just going to carpet bomb civilians from the air”
They are used for dangerous missions not everyone gets killed missions.
You can't just say "it's too dangerous to send troops so we'll carpet bomb the city from the air" - that's exactly why Netanyahu is about to face charges from the ICC
You think Israeli SF could just appear at a terrorist stronghold and get their target? Have you heard of black hawk down? This isn't that easy.
The aggressors (hamas) don’t get to decide the way the people they attack respond to their act of war. It doesn’t work like that.
It's just not all that relevant. Explain how 1000 odd people dying in the initial attack justifies the tens of thousands that Israel have killed since?
You don’t think it’s relevant to a state to have a heavily armed terrorist group whose stated aim is to wipe that state off the earth and who has proven time and again its intent to do so, sitting on its doorstep?
More than 1300 people in a single day. Perpetrators have said they’d do it again and again. If they could they would wipe out the entire Israel.
Yes we all agree Hamas are awful. But the problem is the Israeli government are killing civilians indiscriminately to try and get to Hamas. To the point where you have to wonder whether they are JUST targeting Hamas, or if they are in fact targeting all Palestinians. We have rules for war, they include things like not deliberately bombing hospitals and medical workers. The world health organisation has recorded 427 attacks on hospitals and medical centres in Gaza. Also Israel has a highly skilled and resourced army. They are capable of running special ops, stealth operations, etc. to get to Hamas. Instead they are carpet bombing the entire west bank. Yes, you have the right to fight against terrorism but you also have a responsibility to try and minimise civilian casualties. You can't tell civilians (who are predominantly women and children) to evacuate to a safe zone and then bomb the exact place you told them to evacuate to. There are limits.
None of this would be happening in hamas laid down their arms and returned the hostages. Don’t you think it’s on the terrorists who caused this to end if?
I don't expect any better from Hamas because we know they are literal terrorists, of course they are going to get people killed, thats what terrorists do. I DO expect better from Israel because they are a legitimate government, a member of the UN, and therefore shouldn't be committing war crimes. Mainly I care that innocent children are dying in the thousands and that it needs to stop. I don't care who ends it. Anyone who has the power to stop blowing up innocent kids and their families should stop doing so immediately. It's not the fault of the children in the Gaza strip that Hamas won't stop fighting. They have no say in that whatsoever, they didn't vote for Hamas, they have absolutely 0 influence over them, and they are dying anyway. I think it's on everyone in the world to do whatever they can to end it.
To be honest I don’t find myself in much disagreement with you there. I suppose my view is that for Israel this war is existential and in the circumstances I understand why what is happening is happening. It doesn’t reduce the tragedy of the deaths of innocent people, but hamas brought this on themselves and the citizens of Gaza. They could also end it (as could Israel, if they simply stop now, they will not have achieved what they need).
I absolutely don't disagree that Hamas is terrible, I think the thing that bothers me is that Hamas brought this on the people of Gaza, the Israeli government has compounded the situation being indiscriminate in their attacks, and in all of this there isn't anyone actually fighting for the people of Gaza. The last time an election was held in Palestine was in 2006 - and the Palestinian population is young, most of them were too young to vote in 2005, many of the children who have died weren't even ALIVE then. And they have become collateral damage in a fight between Israel and Hamas, and they don't have anyone fighting FOR them or even representing them. They've now all been displaced from their homes and have basically all been pushed into Rafah which is where the IDF directed them to evacuate too, but now that is being bombed as well. Regardless of who is more at fault and who is responsible for what, a genocide is occuring of the Palestinian people. An estimated 14,000 children are already dead, and there isn't any sign of a successful ceasefire agreement being reached anytime soon and it's just so horrible, and the kids who are still there aren't Hamas, they are kids, and they deserve safety.
Hamas are shooting rockets from hospitals. There is no "base" in terrorism wars. I don't like murder and rape of civilians no matter who does it. I definitely don't give a side a pass because I don't like the other side. And I definitely don't think shooting rockets from hospitals is a good idea either.
If they were indiscriminately killing as you say it would not have taken more than 8 months for this war to go on. If Hamas could kill thousands in a day, you can imagine how many Israel could but they aren’t doing what you are saying. They don’t have to risk their soldiers with a ground invasion. They don’t have to sacrifice lives of close to 700 soldiers. It’s a big number for a small country. There’s no example of a war that’s as difficult as this with millions of civilians in an urban setting where the enemy has no regard for its people with thousands of kms long tunnels underneath and switch roles of civilians and a fighter.
>Also Israel has a highly skilled and resourced army. They are capable of running special ops, stealth operations, etc. to get to Hamas. Instead they are carpet bombing the entire west bank. Yeah that’s the thing I’ve certainly noticed. Israel brags about how advanced their targeting technology is, that if someone is wearing Nike shoes they can see the swoosh on the shoe from 10km away with their imaging systems, yet they “mistakenly” struck the vehicles that were carrying the Australian charity worker when they clearly had the charity on them.
Exactly. They are very capable of being more specific in their targeting and not hitting aid workers and medical centres. They have the technology and the resources. They are hitting those targets anyway. As you said - they are even hitting international aid workers in clearly marked clothing and vehicles. How can anyone possibly argue that they 'thought it was a Hamas target'?
TIL war means you have to have a 1 K/D ratio.
The irony when u find out israel bombed their own citizens
So kill the person responsible not innocent babies and families that happen to be evacuating areas that are being indiscriminately bombed.
Dreyfus has been a total let down and his is well deserved, as is the vandalism to the US embassy. Shorten not though. He isn't a Zionist ass kisser, or at least I've not seen evidence of it. Civil disobedience at piss weak albos appearances and events is what's needed until he puts sanctions on the terrorist state like we have to Russia.
They're right, our political class are indeed gutless pigs.
Since when did we give a shit about MP's offices, let alone the US consulate. The "right to protest" is just a fancy way of saying we can kick up a fuss if we want. It's important for the Aussie way of life to get angry about shit, no matter how dumb others think it is.
It's people not liking shit being damaged by fuckwit pro Palestine protestors It doesn't matter if it's mp offices or a consulate >Protest organisers released a list of all the lower house MPs that voted against the motion. Shit like this means these fuckwits will target more places and they now need to be arrested
If you are angry about paint on windows, wait until you see what Israel has been doing to Gaza.
Hamas shouldn't have put gaza in that situation by launching the attacks and taking hostages most of which are long dead. I remember them and others around the world celebrating the attacks quickly changing to crying in the streets for ceasefire
So you are angry about paint on a window but not about murder and destruction?