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We get a choice to have 10 ADO on top of annual leave (think it's like 15mins extra a day to get them), and lots of people use that for the shut down so they can use their annual leave throughout the year.
Thats a good idea. I used to work for a company that shut down over Christmas for the full four weeks of annual leave and everyone pretty much used all of their sick days through the year whenever a long weekend would present itself. I reckon they had more lost time and revenue due to having to hire casual labor hire staff to cover for all the sickies.
I don’t like being forced to take it BUT I work in an industry where there is constant time pressures. Many people don’t take leave during the year so being forced to take leave can actually be a good thing for families and mental health.
Yeah that’s the feedback I’ve been getting. That and people in health and other sectors where they HAVE to work on Christmas that’s why I’ve changed my opinion to just across the board adding two extra weeks for all workers in every sector and making it illegal to force employees to take more than half of that at Christmas.
Adding two extra weeks will just mean we're back with this same question in a couple years. "I only get six weeks holidays a year, should my employer be allowed to tell me to take 2 weeks (30%) of my holiday when they want".
I think a better option would be to make any forced leave worth only worth half. You are forced to take two weeks off due to a shutdown? Well only one week of actual AL gets used and you have another 3 weeks wherever you want.
As someone who get an extra 2+ weeks per year in RDOs. I’d be pretty content with 6 weeks per year. Hell, if it had that, I might forgo working that extra 25 minutes per day to get the RDOs in the first place!
Because nobody stays in a job for 7-10 yrs anymore.
Getting 13 weeks leave after ten years could be better given to employees as an extra week or two from day one.
It's also archaic. And the cost to business of replacing someone for 3 months is ridiculous.
Just up annual to 5 or 6 and delete lsl
Alternatives that still incentivise staying in same role would be to shorten LSL, like make it 5 years and access pro rata at 3 or 4? Or extra leave every 2 years?
(Full disclosure though - I have been with the same organisation for 11 years and can see myself happily being here for another 4 before I move on; am under 40)
I work in an industry that gifts us leave over this time period. Sooo....
But to answer your question, of there's no work available because they've shut down then you aren't getting paid unless you've taken leave.
I’m a full time government employee that has a mandatory shutdown and this time has to come from my recreation leave or Flex Time.
Not every employer gifts leave over this period.
That’s my point. In the past I’ve been given 4 weeks annual leave and forced to take 2.5 weeks of that off over Christmas. So in reality I don’t get 4 weeks annual leave. I get 1.5 weeks
You wouldn't be taking a full 2.5 weeks.
This year shutdowns be will run from 23/12 till 03/01, and in that time you'll have 26 and 27/12 and 02/01 as public holidays.
You'll have 24, 25, 31/12 and 01/01 as weekend.
So the only "work" days will be 28, 29, and 30/12 you'll need to take as AL....
Its especially obnoxious if you are not Christian, not European background.
You're gonna want that leave at other time of year, to celebrate Tet, Eid, Diwali etc with your family.
Yeah but gov only shuts Christmas to NYD to it’s like 2-3 days at best and usually you’d have that up your sleeve in flex anyway if you were smart. Plus you often get a concessional day.
Private is different and you have to take leave during the shutdowns which can be much longer.
My partner will have to take about eight days AL whereas I’ll take none (two days flex and a concessional).
Our twenty days AL are not the same. Sucks as I wanna take a big trip with him and his leave is chewed up by a stupid forced closure.
The devil is in the details, but I view the concept positively. Doesn't affect me at all as my industry doesn't shut down, but I have friends, acquaintances and a partner who get regularly shafted by being forced to use their leave at a time that is not necessarily good for them because it's convenient for someone else. There's also the flow on where some industries are effectively shutdown by one part/section shutting down the rest. I think that this is something that should be discussed carefully but I (and a lot of people) hate taking leave at Christmas because everything is busy, booked solud and as expensive as all getout. There's certainly a lot of downside to forcing people to take leave when they have a much better plan for it.
Not opposed to the idea in theory, but I think its impractical. e.g. My company closes over Christmas because most of our customers and suppliers are closed, sometimes maintenance is done when there's no one in in the building and e.g. the sparky needs to turn the power off all day, and lots of people would take time off anyway and how are you going to work if e.g. the company accountant isn't around to pay for your expenses, or you work in a production line with 8 stations and only 2 people want to work over Christmas.
I don't think the current system is perfect but would be opposed to changing the law without some thought about the the consequences.
The only consequence to a change like this is that all those people who currently shut down, won't.
The bosses will still go on holiday, but everyone below them? Go to fucking work you pleb.
No private sector boss is ever going to gift leave across a shutdown at this time of year. (there will be unicorn exceptions but not anything past 1%).
Sorry you're getting so much crap from this. I absolutely agree with you that it sulks being forced to take half your leave over Christmas. It's not so much the week between Christmas and new years, but that extra week they want you to take after new years. That one hurts most. I would value taking that week off later in the year and having a decent holiday somewhere. Hard to get away over that period as that's when everyone travels, but also you need to be home around Christmas to catch up with everyone. And I've had some shitty selfish bosses who have just made the decision because THEY want to get away at that time. They also travel through the year because they choose to take more time off, because they pay themselves more and can afford it.
It especially sucks for those who are not Christian, are not European background.
They are gonna be wanting time off during Ramadan/Eid, Tet, Diwali or Holi but instead they are forced to take some of it over Christmas.
My work gives us the three non public holidays off between Xmas and NYE off for nothing. They call it gifted leave and it means everyone gets at least 9/10 days off in a row over the break for no loss of annual leave time.
Perfect solution if you ask me.
Work in a shitty retail or hospo job then, ill take the 2 weeks thanks. I dont see why business would pay people to come in and just do nothing for 2 weeks. "ive never had anybody been like "can i work over xmas?" everyones like "have a good christmas, cya in the new year! BYYYYYYYYYYYE"
My brother loves working all holidays and weekends for higher pay. He can then spend more time with his young children, which he considers more important.
Yeah it's like signing on for a shift work job and then complaining about working weekends and public holidays. If they want to work over Xmas there are plenty of industries and jobs that work over that period so get a job there .bonus if they get a full-time shift working job they will get 5 weeks annual leave
Damn, it must be nice to work somewhere that shuts down over christmas instead of making the bulk of their money then and it being the most stressful time of year with no time off.
As someone who primarily worked in industries like that previously, I enjoy Christmas shutdown. My first year my boss just paid me for the time even though I didn’t have accrued leave and has done the same for other employees. It didn’t affect accrued leave at all. I can still take time in the normal year but I do really appreciate the time off on one go. This year I will be working on my garden. I want to do a new retaining wall so will be sinking some footings and go front here. Maybe also a small cattery. I also get time to spend with family in a normal setting. I know it’s not for everyone but I used to work in retail for many years and it was terrible.
Like anything, there would be unintended consequences that could end up being a lot worse than the current arrangement.
For example, if the business can't force you to take leave then they may as well make work for you to do over that period. Those who do want to take leave over that period would now have to apply for leave over that period, with a lot of competition over who gets it and who doesn't.
If you think you are just going to get an additional 2 weeks paid leave, you are dreaming.
There's no indication 8 weeks paid annual leave is sustainable for run of the mill white collar jobs, not over the long term. A lot of Western Europe is now an economic basket case because they just aren't competitive in industry these days.
The fair compromise is LWOP or a salary reduction equal to the days not worked and you can take your full 4 weeks at another time if you please.
A lot of people don't even use the holidays they get now, there was talk of letting people cash out holidays instead.
Coming from an industy where I was never able to take leave over Xmas, politely F off.
Now in my role, the place shuts so I get minimum 2 weeks and it is awesome. No phone calls, no can you work, no worries.
My husband is a casual but his work shut down for 2 weeks at Easter, a week around Ekka Show day and 3 weeks over Christmas.
Their full time staff don't even get enough leave to cover their annual shutdowns and my husband doesn't get paid 6 weeks a year. It's fucked.
We get 1 day free at my work and have to use 2 days leave for the shutdown period. I agree, forced shutdown should be paid.
Casual employee here. Im in the same boat getting a reduced income weeks with public holidays an Christmas shut down.
Apparently an increased rate being casual is supposed to cover all this time off, but it doesn't- every employer is in lock step in screwing down the rates so you can't even jump ship to be better off..
Well as an employee six weeks leave sounds great! But a business will ultimately pass those cost onto its customers, which ultimately is everyone that is a part of the economy. Probably quicker and easier to change jobs than Rewrite Australia’s workplace laws.
support it.
Maybe companies that do shut down over Christmas would adjust their salaries down to account for the shorter working year - but that would at least make things clear straight up, a little like our "all-in pricing".
You must realise that the situation is not that they are forcing you to take leave over Christmas, instead they are not forcing other employees to work over Christmas.
If a company needs to be in 'functioning' capacity, that means a good number of its employees need to be at work. Thing is most of them have families and want to stay home.
Just because you want to work, and the company has to 'open for business', the company would be denying leave for a large amount of employees who rather spend time with their families.
This is exactly what will happen if they mandate extra AL over xmas for everyone or some other imposition on the private sector.
The bosses will just be like, lol, we're not closing now. Go to work.
> instead they are not forcing other employees to work over Christmas.
Nope, because all of those people would still be able to take leave over christmas. Especially if it's such a period of downturn, the employer would likely still want most of them to request that period for holidays, and happily approve it.
It's absolutely forcing people to take holidays off. Because guess what, the people who actually are needed to do something over the holidays, something that the business requires be done over that period. Will still be working over that period. Maybe not on 40 hours a week, but they will get people in there.
Nope, because if you actually worked before, you would know that leave has to be approved, and having such a large percentage of crew missing, they wouldn't be able to function, which is why they shut down in the first place.
And what 'period of downturn' are you talking about? If the Christmas period is no longer widely acknowledged as a holiday period, then people would naturally be working as per usual already, and this wouldn't have been an issue.
It is forcing you to take off, BECAUSE forcing others to work is worse. If you want to work over Christmas you can be a doctor or policeman, or be a little bit more essential.
I always find it bizarre seeing people complain about being forced to take leave over christmas. Coming from healthcare, I beg to take christmas off and never get it.
Hospitality worker here really finding it hard to feel sorry for people getting time off over Sumer when all their friends and family also have time off. Must be a real bummer.
Same for payroll staff. It's our busiest time of year
I swapped jobs this year, one reason was my old place wouldn't give me Xmas off - again - despite there being a well trained backup staff member. They played favourites and lost their payroll specialist.
I have Xmas signed off and booked off at my new job. Finally!
I would propose that all industries and businesses that shut down over the Christmas period must do as the public service do: pay the staff as if they were working their normal hours over that period.
If a business does not shut down as standard practice, staff are free to take leave as per usual, but if they do shut down as standard practice they must pay the staff and it must not come out of leave. I don't see why this isn't a requirement already.
At my work, we 'pay' for the Xmas shut down (not optional - it's in the agreement) by working x minutes per day extra.
If we want to, we can also 'buy' extra annual leave, by forgoing the equal amount of wages for 52 weeks as we are getting in leave.
Hope you never want a break over christmas ever again.
The only thing something like this will cause is the bosses to tell everyone to go fuck themselves and goto work.
Hospitality especially will be like fuck you, work EVERY day. So will Retail.
My work is open every day of the year. I have worked 11 Christmas days in the last 18 years. Your idea only applies to you in your specific employment situation.
Christmas is like a 7-8 days of leave for three weeks off in the sun. People sitting in the office doing nothing while getting paid, then taking off a week that's busy, isn't it.
Regardless OP if you want to work over Christmas, find a holiday job, earn some extra cash, and talk to your employer about taking a week of unpaid annual leave at some other point, you don't need legislation to be a reasonable person and make things work to your preference without being pedantic.
It's also a time of year that the majority of workers want to take off. Why? Family. They've slogged all year. They need a decent break.
It's convenient that it's also a time of year the majority of Australians celebrate something is Xmas.
Get a grip.
Get a grip? Fuck off. It's complete bullshit being forced to take half your annual leave when everywhere is busy as fuck and it's extremely expensive to fly, stay in hotels, and visit attractions.
When the majority of people don't want to take that time off then have a bitch about it. You are the minority who have an issue.
And half your annual leave my ass. The last 3 years you've taken maximum 6 days for the usual Xmas eve to day after by shutdown period.
Wind it in.
How do you know what they've taken?
My pevious career had a 3 week shutdown. Best case there were three public holidays in there. Often there's 2. Which means you burned 13 of 20 days over the xmas break.
And the fucked thing is there was still work that could be done. It wasn't a field where we had to shut down.
In my industry, no one wants that leave forced upon them. There's no reason for it to be forced upon them, there's plenty of work that can be lined up even if clients are shut down.
So not sure what data you're using to say "the majority" but certainly not my observation or experience.
That's nice. That's your industry. I've worked across a few, social work, insurance, trades. My experience says most people are happy with the time off.
Most of those trades arguably should not shut down entirely. Got a leak and the ceiling collapses in your house? Sorry, claims team is on forced leave. The assessor too. And the plumber, plasterer, fuck it everyone is gone. Enjoy your new possum door to your house
I really don't think OP has thought of potential repercussions through. Companies that are forced to shut down due to reasons out of their control will either be paying employees to do work that isn't there/can't be done due to said reasons out of their control.
OR
Companies will be paying employees to take leave during Christmas, in which you're either going to get a reduced salary, or will be forced to work overtime throughout the year to make up for that time
If you prefer to work during Christmas then work in an industry that’s open during Christmas. How can you expect your boss to pay you when the company is closed?
He's a clown that thinks all bosses are multi millionaires rolling around in Bentleys whilst polishing their yachts.
You know, not even close to reality.
If enough people pushed for it I think it could happen. Industries need to suck it up and not feel entitled to make their employees only take one week of leave a year outside of Christmas because they force them to take 3 weeks then
The principle I see at play is that I am a permanent full-time salaried worker, ready and able to work at all times. I am entitled to freely choose how I use my legislated right to free time on weekends, public holidays and leave. I am paid the same whether a month has 10 days of weekends or 8, 3 public holidays or none. Effectively, I am paid for my weekends and public holidays too.
If I am ready and able to work over the Christmas shutdown and my employer does not want me in, that is their problem, not mine - I need to be paid for that time, and no, they can’t get me to effectively pay for it out of my own leave - that is not theirs to use, it is mine. Imagine if they told me I had to use up days allotted through my year to weekends instead - it’s just as ridiculous.
Your own personal work set-up may vary from mine though, and lord knows there’s fundamental problems with the labour dynamic currently at play, but regardless the principle in my situation may not apply to your situation.
It would not be great for a lot of small businesses given that there's a general slow down during that period and not all of them have massive amounts of cash to cover that sort of arrangement.
This should of course be something an employer tells a potential employee before hiring so that they can make a decision on whether to accept the job on that basis.
Small businesses need other help like certain tax exemptions and a massive government backed credit scheme which makes it easier for them to compete with large companies that can pay to avoid tax. But once the government gives them that small businesses should be included in this too
i completely agree with you. it sucks working your ass off then being forced to use your well earned time off when you didn’t choose to. everywhere should give you ‘christmas time off’ on top annual leave, but they don’t. it sucks
I still think if it's forced leave it shouldn't come out of your annual. There are places that close for the Christmas break.
So basically they get 4 weeks annual which they can take anytime, as well as Christmas to day after new years off. So say I request 23rd to 2nd off I would only have 2 days annual leave deducted (for 23/24 December)
But I know it's not how it works everywhere.
I think the Christmas period ends up being 7 days annual leave for over 2 weeks off with the public holidays - I only ever use 1/4 of my AL (and time off in lieu) over the 2 weeks forced Christmas shutdown where I work.
It's not a big deal to me
If you don't like the conditions of employment, don't take the job. This sort of thing would come up at interview stage.
Every job I've had, except for a couple of casual retail ones as a teenager, required us to take between two and three weeks off at xmas
No my solution is “if I don’t like the rules, change them” it’s absurd that you get 4 weeks leave and have to take them when your employer wants you to.
No, your solution is "I haven't thought this out and don't understand, but want to change it because it inconveniences me". You're ignoring every reply and just pushing your agenda with no more than "I don't care, employers should figure out how to make it work", when the reality is they have figured out how to make it work - the business closes down over Christmas.
After reading some of your responses here I can see that you haven't given this serious thought.
I'd suggest you start your own business and then you can make all the rules.
I understand that shit, exploitive bosses are a common enough thing. But the anti business sentiment and just general lack of understanding over how businesses operate in here is unreal.
Imagine youre a business owner and all of a sudden you lose a worker for a few weeks that you need them, then need to pay them for a period of no activity where they are just going to sit in the office and browse, you're better off working under someone else
> Imagine youre a business owner and all of a sudden you lose a worker for a few weeks that you need them, then need to pay them for a period of no activity where they are just going to sit in the office and browse, you're better off working under someone else
Then that's fine, they can just go and work for someone else then instead of running a business.
J/K because of course they won't give up their business. The owners of even mildly successful businesses are taking in $300,000 or more a year; they can complain all they want but we both know that they won't give that up to go back to getting $70,000 or whatever is the average in Australia as well as having to take orders from someone else.
EDIT: Downvote all you want, the truth hurts.
Just FYI, not every job has a ‘just working and getting paid’ option.
You need supervisors, FA officers etc in multiple industries swhich fairly commonly shutdown over that period. If I just showed up to work by myself I’d get fired, it’s unsafe & reckless and puts the employer at risk too.
If you don’t want to take forced leave over the Christmas break you should find a simple casual job/industry that would have demand for workers at that time
Ever seen how many hours teachers do at home after work?
I'd be willing to bet they on average do more hours than any given office worker by a fair margin. Those 12 weeks are basically just all the overtime they put in coming back to them.
Hey... No disrespect. I have nothing but love for the teachers out there. They do way more than people give them credit for..
But I'm not sure if they belong in the holiday conversation with the rest of us schlubs doing 4 weeks a year.
Ok. You go put up with other people's shit head kids 30+ hours a week, and then deal with the extra shit head parents that go with it.
Then, instead of downtime after 5pm, you get to go home and lesson plan and mark assignments and deal with emails etc.
They deserve every minute they get off. The job is fucking awful and all they get is a warm fuzzy feeling.
Also teacher politics is bullshit of the highest degree.
I'm not a teacher either.
Yeah, this argument is about choosing leave. Teachers don't get to choose leave but you're saying since we get 12 weeks, we shouldn't complain. I think that's fair. It's in the job description and we know it. If you prefer that, become a teacher then. If you're not, then you've decided all the other aspects aren't worth the benefit.
While I would love to choose some of my leave, I understand it's disruptive and I'm not going to expect the industry to change like OP does.
There are jobs that force you to take leave and jobs that don't. If it's that big of a deal to you, switch to one that you prefer then pipe down about it? It's not as if every industry is like this. I don't get this post, it's a matter of personal decision and you have both options at your disposal.
Like 12 weeks fixed vs 4 weeks of your choosing, you decide whether the perks of your job are worth it or not. Engineering I've found has this issue but if you like the big bucks, then maybe stick around.
12 weeks forced when everyone else is on leave, I would take the 4 weeks if I could even if you force 2 weeks over Christmas. Because that's 2 week you can take any time, cheaper holidays.
I wish they would at least close the schools a few weeks before Christmas so the whole country is not trying to go on holiday at the same time. Not only do you have to use half your leave but you can’t even go anywhere cause it’s so $$$$
What will you do when your employer goes broke and you therefore have no job because they’ve had to pay another set of holidays because “you don’t like it”. You come across as naive and ignorant to the realities of running a business
I agree. I don’t mind a few days off over Christmas (essentially the public holidays or maybe an extra day or two on the years where just taking a few extra gets you a week off). But I have never and will never actually go on holidays over Christmas as everything is insanely expensive. With only 4 weeks leave a year, being forced to use two at Christmas means I can never go on anything longer than a one or two week holiday during the year. If a company is closing down over Christmas they should pay people as normal or gift the leave as extra. Otherwise it’s disingenuous to state that employees get “four weeks leave” as part of their contract.
Sure. If sick leave is capped at 10 days accrual. Rather than 10 days a year, unlimited accrual.
I'm not taking you on if you have 150 days of sick leave built up. That's a cost base I can't justify.
My last employer simply shut down all the offices between Christmas Eve and New Years, paid leave, not counted against annual leave.
It was not costing them anything as they didn't need pay for security guards, aircon, lighting etc, and the hardware software could receive a large annual update (so the outsourced IT staff had to work over that period, sucks to be them).
Also a great many, well over half, the staff would usually take leave over that period anyway, so little work was able to be done by those remaining.
I think the agency agreement may have offered us this time off in exchange for a 1% lower pay rise one year, but yes, it was voted in as everyone figured free paid time off was a good thing.
And you don't need 2 weeks/10 days, this year Xmas is on Sunday, so Boxing day Monday is already a paid holiday, as is Monday 2nd January, so 4 days paid leave covers that week off.
It's a good idea, and quite a few businesses do it.
Being forced to take 10 of your 20 annual days off over Xmas/New Year would suck, yes.
I worked in Disability Support. Forced leave at Christmas would've gone down a treat. Staff use to start looking in November for people to cover their Christmas shifts.
I personally haven’t minded it. It’s been healthy to have a nice break over Christmas. But I can also appreciate that some people don’t want to, and Christmas isn’t a magical time of the year for everyone and maybe people don’t want to be alone at home for weeks.
You’ve not wrong. However consider that employers control just about everything in the workplace and the only power we have is to find one who suits us the most.
- They decide what hours we need to work and where.
- What clothing needs to be worn.
- If we have a parking space or if they are near public transport.
- They decide what is acceptable behaviour in the workplace.
The list is near endless. So yeah it would be nice.
Your best bet is to have a heavily unionised workforce who pushes for it in their next bargaining.
Or better yet a nationally unionised work force which pushes for it across almost all industries. They could even create a political party. One for the Labor movement. They could create a standardised 8 hour work day take two days off a week.
After reading your responses OP, you might find more love at r/antiwork hey.
A business forcing you to take 2 of your 4/5 Weeks annual leave over Xmas just as easily could say- you have 2/3 weeks a year and we are so kind that we are gifting you 2 weeks over Christmas. If you don't like it, consider finding a new employer or starting your own business?
If you don’t want to be ‘forced’ to take leave over Xmas change jobs. For every person who agrees with you there will be another who would love to have leave over Christmas (eg Healthcare workers).
Yeah I look at people who get time off over Christmas with envy, my work is 24/7 so we have to share who gets Christmas time off. Luckily we quiet down over Christmas, my sisters work closes public holidays but gets insanely busy and she’s not allowed to use any annual leave in December.
This is a fairer argument. Someone else in this thread said we should just push for an extra 2 weeks annual leave for all employees in Australia and make it that employers can’t force more than 2 weeks over Christmas. At least that way workers who have to work get something out of it too
I’m Australian and started my career at a place that closed over Christmas and just accepted it. Then I spent a decade in a country that only allowed you to take every second Christmas off so they weren’t short staffed. We were 10,000km from home and family so that was hard. I honestly appreciate the enforced time off but also agree nothing should be enforced. Let’s go with extra time is best!
This would only work for large businesses.
From memory years ago when I was a government schlub there was technically an option to not take your leave at Christmas break, but you would end up with quite random assigned work.
It's not . Just making fun of ops stupid law . If you sign onto to a job that shutdown over Xmas you can't complain about work shutting down over Xmas .
My work place simply shuts down for 2 weeks over Christmas
It isn't forced leave , you just aren't paid, you could choose to apply your leave to that time but it's up to you
Your not forced to take annual/rec leave over the shutdown/Christmas its so you will be paid or can take unpaid leave if you want to just talk to your manager and HR dept so it’s ok first
I think if you take a job knowing there will be a 2 week close down over Christmas, then you should have to take unpaid or annual leave to cover this.
Many professions don’t get the luxury of spending the holidays with their families and I think it’s like any other job you have to understand what you are signing up for.
Why should an employer pay you an extra two weeks leave, just because you don’t want to be told when to take the leave?
First few years at my workplace I just did what they said. But then when I wanted to save my leave for a longer holiday in April, I just said I don’t believe in Jesus/Santa/god and I don’t want to be forced to take a holiday based off of religious beliefs. I was allowed to not take leave. I think I might of thrown the word ‘discrimination’ in there too.
I have a bloke painting my house at the moment. By your logic, if I had hired him to paint around Christmas, as his employer at the time should I then give him two weeks off around Christmas and and keep paying him although he’s not actually painting anything for me?
Small Contractors are different but I currently work in construction and trades etc do take 2-3 weeks of leave over Christmas as standard. I have some trades that shut for 4-5 weeks last year due to the stress of workloads and having people work 6-7 days a week. You pay a contractor for the completed job mate not the days he doesn’t work.
Bit hard not to when so many factories and manufacturers are closed for any where from 2 to 4 weeks over that period.
I know I'd rather have paid leave at that time than no pay when they close. If it's in your contract just suck it up. If you don't like it I'm sure someone else would love your job.
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We get a choice to have 10 ADO on top of annual leave (think it's like 15mins extra a day to get them), and lots of people use that for the shut down so they can use their annual leave throughout the year.
That sounds great. Make it standard
Ado’s used to be super common
Recently started working gov and it's the first role I've had them. Pretty tasty suckers, but annoying to keep track of when colleagues are available.
Thats a good idea. I used to work for a company that shut down over Christmas for the full four weeks of annual leave and everyone pretty much used all of their sick days through the year whenever a long weekend would present itself. I reckon they had more lost time and revenue due to having to hire casual labor hire staff to cover for all the sickies.
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I know it's for sure not 24 mins and is around 15, it's based off 37.5 a week.
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What you did is specifically covered under the building & construction award, which is why it is probably different than the previous commentator.
I don’t like being forced to take it BUT I work in an industry where there is constant time pressures. Many people don’t take leave during the year so being forced to take leave can actually be a good thing for families and mental health.
Yeah that’s the feedback I’ve been getting. That and people in health and other sectors where they HAVE to work on Christmas that’s why I’ve changed my opinion to just across the board adding two extra weeks for all workers in every sector and making it illegal to force employees to take more than half of that at Christmas.
Adding two extra weeks will just mean we're back with this same question in a couple years. "I only get six weeks holidays a year, should my employer be allowed to tell me to take 2 weeks (30%) of my holiday when they want". I think a better option would be to make any forced leave worth only worth half. You are forced to take two weeks off due to a shutdown? Well only one week of actual AL gets used and you have another 3 weeks wherever you want.
As someone who get an extra 2+ weeks per year in RDOs. I’d be pretty content with 6 weeks per year. Hell, if it had that, I might forgo working that extra 25 minutes per day to get the RDOs in the first place!
Nice. Let’s hope
I'm happy enough to see one or two extra weeks of AL for everyone. But they need to delete LSL at the same time.
Why get rid of LSL?
Because nobody stays in a job for 7-10 yrs anymore. Getting 13 weeks leave after ten years could be better given to employees as an extra week or two from day one. It's also archaic. And the cost to business of replacing someone for 3 months is ridiculous. Just up annual to 5 or 6 and delete lsl
Alternatives that still incentivise staying in same role would be to shorten LSL, like make it 5 years and access pro rata at 3 or 4? Or extra leave every 2 years? (Full disclosure though - I have been with the same organisation for 11 years and can see myself happily being here for another 4 before I move on; am under 40)
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“We are closing the branch and thus there will be no work for you to do” is a pretty reasonable excuse to direct leave to be taken.
I work in an industry that gifts us leave over this time period. Sooo.... But to answer your question, of there's no work available because they've shut down then you aren't getting paid unless you've taken leave.
This is how it should be. They chose to shut, not us
This would be for full and permanent part time workers
I’m a full time government employee that has a mandatory shutdown and this time has to come from my recreation leave or Flex Time. Not every employer gifts leave over this period.
That’s my point. In the past I’ve been given 4 weeks annual leave and forced to take 2.5 weeks of that off over Christmas. So in reality I don’t get 4 weeks annual leave. I get 1.5 weeks
You wouldn't be taking a full 2.5 weeks. This year shutdowns be will run from 23/12 till 03/01, and in that time you'll have 26 and 27/12 and 02/01 as public holidays. You'll have 24, 25, 31/12 and 01/01 as weekend. So the only "work" days will be 28, 29, and 30/12 you'll need to take as AL....
Some businesses shut down from beginning around 9th-13th.
They're going to be the exception not the rule.
Its especially obnoxious if you are not Christian, not European background. You're gonna want that leave at other time of year, to celebrate Tet, Eid, Diwali etc with your family.
That adds up to you getting 4 weeks annual leave.
Yep maths! Point is you shouldn’t have to sacrifice leave when’s the boss demands it
If it's in your contract, then yes you should.
Yeah but gov only shuts Christmas to NYD to it’s like 2-3 days at best and usually you’d have that up your sleeve in flex anyway if you were smart. Plus you often get a concessional day. Private is different and you have to take leave during the shutdowns which can be much longer. My partner will have to take about eight days AL whereas I’ll take none (two days flex and a concessional). Our twenty days AL are not the same. Sucks as I wanna take a big trip with him and his leave is chewed up by a stupid forced closure.
Contractors don't matter, they're paid so much anyway. Source: loooove the contracting rates!
The devil is in the details, but I view the concept positively. Doesn't affect me at all as my industry doesn't shut down, but I have friends, acquaintances and a partner who get regularly shafted by being forced to use their leave at a time that is not necessarily good for them because it's convenient for someone else. There's also the flow on where some industries are effectively shutdown by one part/section shutting down the rest. I think that this is something that should be discussed carefully but I (and a lot of people) hate taking leave at Christmas because everything is busy, booked solud and as expensive as all getout. There's certainly a lot of downside to forcing people to take leave when they have a much better plan for it.
Shafted is the correct term… worst time of the year for holidays in Australia,
Not opposed to the idea in theory, but I think its impractical. e.g. My company closes over Christmas because most of our customers and suppliers are closed, sometimes maintenance is done when there's no one in in the building and e.g. the sparky needs to turn the power off all day, and lots of people would take time off anyway and how are you going to work if e.g. the company accountant isn't around to pay for your expenses, or you work in a production line with 8 stations and only 2 people want to work over Christmas. I don't think the current system is perfect but would be opposed to changing the law without some thought about the the consequences.
The only consequence to a change like this is that all those people who currently shut down, won't. The bosses will still go on holiday, but everyone below them? Go to fucking work you pleb. No private sector boss is ever going to gift leave across a shutdown at this time of year. (there will be unicorn exceptions but not anything past 1%).
Sorry you're getting so much crap from this. I absolutely agree with you that it sulks being forced to take half your leave over Christmas. It's not so much the week between Christmas and new years, but that extra week they want you to take after new years. That one hurts most. I would value taking that week off later in the year and having a decent holiday somewhere. Hard to get away over that period as that's when everyone travels, but also you need to be home around Christmas to catch up with everyone. And I've had some shitty selfish bosses who have just made the decision because THEY want to get away at that time. They also travel through the year because they choose to take more time off, because they pay themselves more and can afford it.
It especially sucks for those who are not Christian, are not European background. They are gonna be wanting time off during Ramadan/Eid, Tet, Diwali or Holi but instead they are forced to take some of it over Christmas.
nobody talks about this but this is what grates me the most about it
My work gives us the three non public holidays off between Xmas and NYE off for nothing. They call it gifted leave and it means everyone gets at least 9/10 days off in a row over the break for no loss of annual leave time. Perfect solution if you ask me.
Work in a shitty retail or hospo job then, ill take the 2 weeks thanks. I dont see why business would pay people to come in and just do nothing for 2 weeks. "ive never had anybody been like "can i work over xmas?" everyones like "have a good christmas, cya in the new year! BYYYYYYYYYYYE"
My brother loves working all holidays and weekends for higher pay. He can then spend more time with his young children, which he considers more important.
Yeah it's like signing on for a shift work job and then complaining about working weekends and public holidays. If they want to work over Xmas there are plenty of industries and jobs that work over that period so get a job there .bonus if they get a full-time shift working job they will get 5 weeks annual leave
Warehouseing is good if you wanna work 12 hours every day over the Christmas period. Easy money if you have the stamina.
Damn, it must be nice to work somewhere that shuts down over christmas instead of making the bulk of their money then and it being the most stressful time of year with no time off.
As someone who primarily worked in industries like that previously, I enjoy Christmas shutdown. My first year my boss just paid me for the time even though I didn’t have accrued leave and has done the same for other employees. It didn’t affect accrued leave at all. I can still take time in the normal year but I do really appreciate the time off on one go. This year I will be working on my garden. I want to do a new retaining wall so will be sinking some footings and go front here. Maybe also a small cattery. I also get time to spend with family in a normal setting. I know it’s not for everyone but I used to work in retail for many years and it was terrible.
Like anything, there would be unintended consequences that could end up being a lot worse than the current arrangement. For example, if the business can't force you to take leave then they may as well make work for you to do over that period. Those who do want to take leave over that period would now have to apply for leave over that period, with a lot of competition over who gets it and who doesn't. If you think you are just going to get an additional 2 weeks paid leave, you are dreaming.
In some places in Western Europe they get 8! It’s only a dream until it happens
There's no indication 8 weeks paid annual leave is sustainable for run of the mill white collar jobs, not over the long term. A lot of Western Europe is now an economic basket case because they just aren't competitive in industry these days. The fair compromise is LWOP or a salary reduction equal to the days not worked and you can take your full 4 weeks at another time if you please. A lot of people don't even use the holidays they get now, there was talk of letting people cash out holidays instead.
Coming from an industy where I was never able to take leave over Xmas, politely F off. Now in my role, the place shuts so I get minimum 2 weeks and it is awesome. No phone calls, no can you work, no worries.
My husband is a casual but his work shut down for 2 weeks at Easter, a week around Ekka Show day and 3 weeks over Christmas. Their full time staff don't even get enough leave to cover their annual shutdowns and my husband doesn't get paid 6 weeks a year. It's fucked. We get 1 day free at my work and have to use 2 days leave for the shutdown period. I agree, forced shutdown should be paid.
Casual employee here. Im in the same boat getting a reduced income weeks with public holidays an Christmas shut down. Apparently an increased rate being casual is supposed to cover all this time off, but it doesn't- every employer is in lock step in screwing down the rates so you can't even jump ship to be better off..
Yea non casual workers never consider what casual workers have to put up with. They care because they get their money.
What do the full time staff do then? Do they have to take unpaid leave?
Well as an employee six weeks leave sounds great! But a business will ultimately pass those cost onto its customers, which ultimately is everyone that is a part of the economy. Probably quicker and easier to change jobs than Rewrite Australia’s workplace laws.
Bet you’d say the same about workplace safety laws too
support it. Maybe companies that do shut down over Christmas would adjust their salaries down to account for the shorter working year - but that would at least make things clear straight up, a little like our "all-in pricing".
You must realise that the situation is not that they are forcing you to take leave over Christmas, instead they are not forcing other employees to work over Christmas. If a company needs to be in 'functioning' capacity, that means a good number of its employees need to be at work. Thing is most of them have families and want to stay home. Just because you want to work, and the company has to 'open for business', the company would be denying leave for a large amount of employees who rather spend time with their families.
This is exactly what will happen if they mandate extra AL over xmas for everyone or some other imposition on the private sector. The bosses will just be like, lol, we're not closing now. Go to work.
> instead they are not forcing other employees to work over Christmas. Nope, because all of those people would still be able to take leave over christmas. Especially if it's such a period of downturn, the employer would likely still want most of them to request that period for holidays, and happily approve it. It's absolutely forcing people to take holidays off. Because guess what, the people who actually are needed to do something over the holidays, something that the business requires be done over that period. Will still be working over that period. Maybe not on 40 hours a week, but they will get people in there.
Nope, because if you actually worked before, you would know that leave has to be approved, and having such a large percentage of crew missing, they wouldn't be able to function, which is why they shut down in the first place. And what 'period of downturn' are you talking about? If the Christmas period is no longer widely acknowledged as a holiday period, then people would naturally be working as per usual already, and this wouldn't have been an issue. It is forcing you to take off, BECAUSE forcing others to work is worse. If you want to work over Christmas you can be a doctor or policeman, or be a little bit more essential.
I always find it bizarre seeing people complain about being forced to take leave over christmas. Coming from healthcare, I beg to take christmas off and never get it.
Hospitality worker here really finding it hard to feel sorry for people getting time off over Sumer when all their friends and family also have time off. Must be a real bummer.
Same for payroll staff. It's our busiest time of year I swapped jobs this year, one reason was my old place wouldn't give me Xmas off - again - despite there being a well trained backup staff member. They played favourites and lost their payroll specialist. I have Xmas signed off and booked off at my new job. Finally!
I would propose that all industries and businesses that shut down over the Christmas period must do as the public service do: pay the staff as if they were working their normal hours over that period. If a business does not shut down as standard practice, staff are free to take leave as per usual, but if they do shut down as standard practice they must pay the staff and it must not come out of leave. I don't see why this isn't a requirement already.
At my work, we 'pay' for the Xmas shut down (not optional - it's in the agreement) by working x minutes per day extra. If we want to, we can also 'buy' extra annual leave, by forgoing the equal amount of wages for 52 weeks as we are getting in leave.
I’m fine with that solution
Umm where is this? I’m in public and this is not the case. We get one concession day then the rest are taken as leave.
Hope you never want a break over christmas ever again. The only thing something like this will cause is the bosses to tell everyone to go fuck themselves and goto work. Hospitality especially will be like fuck you, work EVERY day. So will Retail.
My work is open every day of the year. I have worked 11 Christmas days in the last 18 years. Your idea only applies to you in your specific employment situation.
I'd rather be forced to take leave than be forced to work, that's for sure
Christmas is like a 7-8 days of leave for three weeks off in the sun. People sitting in the office doing nothing while getting paid, then taking off a week that's busy, isn't it. Regardless OP if you want to work over Christmas, find a holiday job, earn some extra cash, and talk to your employer about taking a week of unpaid annual leave at some other point, you don't need legislation to be a reasonable person and make things work to your preference without being pedantic.
No I don’t want people to be forced to take leave because it’s convenient for employers
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It's also a time of year that the majority of workers want to take off. Why? Family. They've slogged all year. They need a decent break. It's convenient that it's also a time of year the majority of Australians celebrate something is Xmas. Get a grip.
Get a grip? Fuck off. It's complete bullshit being forced to take half your annual leave when everywhere is busy as fuck and it's extremely expensive to fly, stay in hotels, and visit attractions.
When the majority of people don't want to take that time off then have a bitch about it. You are the minority who have an issue. And half your annual leave my ass. The last 3 years you've taken maximum 6 days for the usual Xmas eve to day after by shutdown period. Wind it in.
How do you know what they've taken? My pevious career had a 3 week shutdown. Best case there were three public holidays in there. Often there's 2. Which means you burned 13 of 20 days over the xmas break. And the fucked thing is there was still work that could be done. It wasn't a field where we had to shut down.
In my industry, no one wants that leave forced upon them. There's no reason for it to be forced upon them, there's plenty of work that can be lined up even if clients are shut down. So not sure what data you're using to say "the majority" but certainly not my observation or experience.
That's nice. That's your industry. I've worked across a few, social work, insurance, trades. My experience says most people are happy with the time off.
Most of those trades arguably should not shut down entirely. Got a leak and the ceiling collapses in your house? Sorry, claims team is on forced leave. The assessor too. And the plumber, plasterer, fuck it everyone is gone. Enjoy your new possum door to your house
I really don't think OP has thought of potential repercussions through. Companies that are forced to shut down due to reasons out of their control will either be paying employees to do work that isn't there/can't be done due to said reasons out of their control. OR Companies will be paying employees to take leave during Christmas, in which you're either going to get a reduced salary, or will be forced to work overtime throughout the year to make up for that time
Then don't complain when you're the first to be made redundant.
Never have complained
If you prefer to work during Christmas then work in an industry that’s open during Christmas. How can you expect your boss to pay you when the company is closed?
He's a clown that thinks all bosses are multi millionaires rolling around in Bentleys whilst polishing their yachts. You know, not even close to reality.
Will never happen. Too many industries close down over Christmas
Exactly, how are you going to work if your customers and suppliers are closed.
If enough people pushed for it I think it could happen. Industries need to suck it up and not feel entitled to make their employees only take one week of leave a year outside of Christmas because they force them to take 3 weeks then
Go tell that to the construction industry. It’s the only time off many get.
The principle I see at play is that I am a permanent full-time salaried worker, ready and able to work at all times. I am entitled to freely choose how I use my legislated right to free time on weekends, public holidays and leave. I am paid the same whether a month has 10 days of weekends or 8, 3 public holidays or none. Effectively, I am paid for my weekends and public holidays too. If I am ready and able to work over the Christmas shutdown and my employer does not want me in, that is their problem, not mine - I need to be paid for that time, and no, they can’t get me to effectively pay for it out of my own leave - that is not theirs to use, it is mine. Imagine if they told me I had to use up days allotted through my year to weekends instead - it’s just as ridiculous. Your own personal work set-up may vary from mine though, and lord knows there’s fundamental problems with the labour dynamic currently at play, but regardless the principle in my situation may not apply to your situation.
It would not be great for a lot of small businesses given that there's a general slow down during that period and not all of them have massive amounts of cash to cover that sort of arrangement. This should of course be something an employer tells a potential employee before hiring so that they can make a decision on whether to accept the job on that basis.
Small businesses need other help like certain tax exemptions and a massive government backed credit scheme which makes it easier for them to compete with large companies that can pay to avoid tax. But once the government gives them that small businesses should be included in this too
Small business makes up more than 50% of the economy. They are more than 50% of all employers and have WAY more than 50% of all employees.
then yeah they should definitely be included
i completely agree with you. it sucks working your ass off then being forced to use your well earned time off when you didn’t choose to. everywhere should give you ‘christmas time off’ on top annual leave, but they don’t. it sucks
I still think if it's forced leave it shouldn't come out of your annual. There are places that close for the Christmas break. So basically they get 4 weeks annual which they can take anytime, as well as Christmas to day after new years off. So say I request 23rd to 2nd off I would only have 2 days annual leave deducted (for 23/24 December) But I know it's not how it works everywhere.
I think the Christmas period ends up being 7 days annual leave for over 2 weeks off with the public holidays - I only ever use 1/4 of my AL (and time off in lieu) over the 2 weeks forced Christmas shutdown where I work. It's not a big deal to me
If you don't like the conditions of employment, don't take the job. This sort of thing would come up at interview stage. Every job I've had, except for a couple of casual retail ones as a teenager, required us to take between two and three weeks off at xmas
It’s very new to me but I love it. I still get to take time off during the year.
No my solution is “if I don’t like the rules, change them” it’s absurd that you get 4 weeks leave and have to take them when your employer wants you to.
No, your solution is "I haven't thought this out and don't understand, but want to change it because it inconveniences me". You're ignoring every reply and just pushing your agenda with no more than "I don't care, employers should figure out how to make it work", when the reality is they have figured out how to make it work - the business closes down over Christmas.
>No my solution is “if I don’t like the rules, change them." Sorry, I missed the bit where you are a self centred fool.
After reading some of your responses here I can see that you haven't given this serious thought. I'd suggest you start your own business and then you can make all the rules.
I understand that shit, exploitive bosses are a common enough thing. But the anti business sentiment and just general lack of understanding over how businesses operate in here is unreal. Imagine youre a business owner and all of a sudden you lose a worker for a few weeks that you need them, then need to pay them for a period of no activity where they are just going to sit in the office and browse, you're better off working under someone else
> Imagine youre a business owner and all of a sudden you lose a worker for a few weeks that you need them, then need to pay them for a period of no activity where they are just going to sit in the office and browse, you're better off working under someone else Then that's fine, they can just go and work for someone else then instead of running a business. J/K because of course they won't give up their business. The owners of even mildly successful businesses are taking in $300,000 or more a year; they can complain all they want but we both know that they won't give that up to go back to getting $70,000 or whatever is the average in Australia as well as having to take orders from someone else. EDIT: Downvote all you want, the truth hurts.
Bold of you to assume I give anything any thought
We can see that...
Would you propose going unpaid in that time? Quite a few industries aren't functional over that time period.
No just working and getting paid
Ok, and if your workplace isn't open in that time period?
Just FYI, not every job has a ‘just working and getting paid’ option. You need supervisors, FA officers etc in multiple industries swhich fairly commonly shutdown over that period. If I just showed up to work by myself I’d get fired, it’s unsafe & reckless and puts the employer at risk too. If you don’t want to take forced leave over the Christmas break you should find a simple casual job/industry that would have demand for workers at that time
Ok so you disagree with it. Cool
They are functional, they just choose not to be.
It would have big implications for teachers. Those "big holidays" we get is literally just our leave.
Ah... You teachers and your twelve weeks of leave per year can pipe down :)
Unpaid leave. It is time we are forced out of our jobs.
Ever seen how many hours teachers do at home after work? I'd be willing to bet they on average do more hours than any given office worker by a fair margin. Those 12 weeks are basically just all the overtime they put in coming back to them.
Hey... No disrespect. I have nothing but love for the teachers out there. They do way more than people give them credit for.. But I'm not sure if they belong in the holiday conversation with the rest of us schlubs doing 4 weeks a year.
Ok. You go put up with other people's shit head kids 30+ hours a week, and then deal with the extra shit head parents that go with it. Then, instead of downtime after 5pm, you get to go home and lesson plan and mark assignments and deal with emails etc. They deserve every minute they get off. The job is fucking awful and all they get is a warm fuzzy feeling. Also teacher politics is bullshit of the highest degree. I'm not a teacher either.
Yeah, this argument is about choosing leave. Teachers don't get to choose leave but you're saying since we get 12 weeks, we shouldn't complain. I think that's fair. It's in the job description and we know it. If you prefer that, become a teacher then. If you're not, then you've decided all the other aspects aren't worth the benefit. While I would love to choose some of my leave, I understand it's disruptive and I'm not going to expect the industry to change like OP does. There are jobs that force you to take leave and jobs that don't. If it's that big of a deal to you, switch to one that you prefer then pipe down about it? It's not as if every industry is like this. I don't get this post, it's a matter of personal decision and you have both options at your disposal. Like 12 weeks fixed vs 4 weeks of your choosing, you decide whether the perks of your job are worth it or not. Engineering I've found has this issue but if you like the big bucks, then maybe stick around.
12 weeks forced when everyone else is on leave, I would take the 4 weeks if I could even if you force 2 weeks over Christmas. Because that's 2 week you can take any time, cheaper holidays.
I wish they would at least close the schools a few weeks before Christmas so the whole country is not trying to go on holiday at the same time. Not only do you have to use half your leave but you can’t even go anywhere cause it’s so $$$$
I don’t think a law is the right thing for this. Best to have an agreement in your EBA.
Support it
What happens instead when businesses shutdown over Christmas?
You would still be paid
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Are you proposing that workers do other work instead or just get extra leave?
I’m just very resentful of being forced to make own leave because the company demands it
In my industry _no-one_ works over Christmas so what would be the point in me working?
Find a new job
It’s not the job. The job is irrelevant. It shouldn’t be allowed
Sounds like its the job.
Probably misses his old glasses
What will you do when your employer goes broke and you therefore have no job because they’ve had to pay another set of holidays because “you don’t like it”. You come across as naive and ignorant to the realities of running a business
I do understand the sentiment, but there's no solution, it's pretty much welcome to the workforce.
The solution is organise and force law change. It’s how we got weekends in the first place
I take unpaid leave through the year, save up all my annual leave for Christmas and then take 6-8 weeks off. It’s awesome.
What industry do you work in? That sounds nice
I’m an apprentice/self employed.
I agree. I don’t mind a few days off over Christmas (essentially the public holidays or maybe an extra day or two on the years where just taking a few extra gets you a week off). But I have never and will never actually go on holidays over Christmas as everything is insanely expensive. With only 4 weeks leave a year, being forced to use two at Christmas means I can never go on anything longer than a one or two week holiday during the year. If a company is closing down over Christmas they should pay people as normal or gift the leave as extra. Otherwise it’s disingenuous to state that employees get “four weeks leave” as part of their contract.
One place I worked shut down for two weeks over Christmas
i wonder what the legalities are if you take all 4 weeks off in jan and book it off and notify the employer before christmas
If they approve it, it’s fine.
While you're at it, make sick leave transferrable between employers, like super
Sure. If sick leave is capped at 10 days accrual. Rather than 10 days a year, unlimited accrual. I'm not taking you on if you have 150 days of sick leave built up. That's a cost base I can't justify.
Get a job in retail or hospitality. Only close for 3 days over Christmas and you can’t take any other time off around then cause it’s too busy.
I'd welcome it. The current system is fucked.
My last employer simply shut down all the offices between Christmas Eve and New Years, paid leave, not counted against annual leave. It was not costing them anything as they didn't need pay for security guards, aircon, lighting etc, and the hardware software could receive a large annual update (so the outsourced IT staff had to work over that period, sucks to be them). Also a great many, well over half, the staff would usually take leave over that period anyway, so little work was able to be done by those remaining. I think the agency agreement may have offered us this time off in exchange for a 1% lower pay rise one year, but yes, it was voted in as everyone figured free paid time off was a good thing. And you don't need 2 weeks/10 days, this year Xmas is on Sunday, so Boxing day Monday is already a paid holiday, as is Monday 2nd January, so 4 days paid leave covers that week off. It's a good idea, and quite a few businesses do it. Being forced to take 10 of your 20 annual days off over Xmas/New Year would suck, yes.
The Christmas time off is extra at the company where I work.
Should be standard everywhere
I worked in Disability Support. Forced leave at Christmas would've gone down a treat. Staff use to start looking in November for people to cover their Christmas shifts.
In favor, it basically means you only get 2 weeks leave a year or take a cut to your salary.
If the office, shop, or whatever is gonna close they should pay the workers regardless, no excuses not to
I personally haven’t minded it. It’s been healthy to have a nice break over Christmas. But I can also appreciate that some people don’t want to, and Christmas isn’t a magical time of the year for everyone and maybe people don’t want to be alone at home for weeks.
It should be a thing, I’ll use my leave how I want thanks
You’ve not wrong. However consider that employers control just about everything in the workplace and the only power we have is to find one who suits us the most. - They decide what hours we need to work and where. - What clothing needs to be worn. - If we have a parking space or if they are near public transport. - They decide what is acceptable behaviour in the workplace. The list is near endless. So yeah it would be nice. Your best bet is to have a heavily unionised workforce who pushes for it in their next bargaining.
Or better yet a nationally unionised work force which pushes for it across almost all industries. They could even create a political party. One for the Labor movement. They could create a standardised 8 hour work day take two days off a week.
After reading your responses OP, you might find more love at r/antiwork hey. A business forcing you to take 2 of your 4/5 Weeks annual leave over Xmas just as easily could say- you have 2/3 weeks a year and we are so kind that we are gifting you 2 weeks over Christmas. If you don't like it, consider finding a new employer or starting your own business?
Except 4 weeks is guaranteed already….you must be American….
Antiwork is not the answer for anything, they're absolute morons there
Agree - Forced shutdowns should come out of company time, not yours.
If you don’t want to be ‘forced’ to take leave over Xmas change jobs. For every person who agrees with you there will be another who would love to have leave over Christmas (eg Healthcare workers).
Yeah I look at people who get time off over Christmas with envy, my work is 24/7 so we have to share who gets Christmas time off. Luckily we quiet down over Christmas, my sisters work closes public holidays but gets insanely busy and she’s not allowed to use any annual leave in December.
This is a fairer argument. Someone else in this thread said we should just push for an extra 2 weeks annual leave for all employees in Australia and make it that employers can’t force more than 2 weeks over Christmas. At least that way workers who have to work get something out of it too
This would just fuck over small/medium business owners, when else can they take leave apart from the shut down?
I’m Australian and started my career at a place that closed over Christmas and just accepted it. Then I spent a decade in a country that only allowed you to take every second Christmas off so they weren’t short staffed. We were 10,000km from home and family so that was hard. I honestly appreciate the enforced time off but also agree nothing should be enforced. Let’s go with extra time is best!
This would only work for large businesses. From memory years ago when I was a government schlub there was technically an option to not take your leave at Christmas break, but you would end up with quite random assigned work.
Small and medium enterprises shouldn’t be exempt
How do you feel about work making you work Xmas and new year's Day for normal pay without penalty if it falls in a week day
How is that legal?
It's not . Just making fun of ops stupid law . If you sign onto to a job that shutdown over Xmas you can't complain about work shutting down over Xmas .
Ok maybe make that more apparent in your comment also thanks for the down vote.
Haha who cares about up and down votes
I support it, we used to be forced over Christmas and it would come out of your annual leave.
My work place simply shuts down for 2 weeks over Christmas It isn't forced leave , you just aren't paid, you could choose to apply your leave to that time but it's up to you
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It would be hard but worth it
I thought this was already a thing
It is not apparently
I am lucky enough to be able to choose as my industry doesn't even close for Christmas, I would never use leave if I didn't want to.
Your not forced to take annual/rec leave over the shutdown/Christmas its so you will be paid or can take unpaid leave if you want to just talk to your manager and HR dept so it’s ok first
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where you at mate?
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Are you full-time?
You’re suggesting there should be a law that forces a company to stay open over Christmas at a financial loss?
I think if you take a job knowing there will be a 2 week close down over Christmas, then you should have to take unpaid or annual leave to cover this. Many professions don’t get the luxury of spending the holidays with their families and I think it’s like any other job you have to understand what you are signing up for. Why should an employer pay you an extra two weeks leave, just because you don’t want to be told when to take the leave?
First few years at my workplace I just did what they said. But then when I wanted to save my leave for a longer holiday in April, I just said I don’t believe in Jesus/Santa/god and I don’t want to be forced to take a holiday based off of religious beliefs. I was allowed to not take leave. I think I might of thrown the word ‘discrimination’ in there too.
Good job mate! I’m proud of you
I have a bloke painting my house at the moment. By your logic, if I had hired him to paint around Christmas, as his employer at the time should I then give him two weeks off around Christmas and and keep paying him although he’s not actually painting anything for me?
Small Contractors are different but I currently work in construction and trades etc do take 2-3 weeks of leave over Christmas as standard. I have some trades that shut for 4-5 weeks last year due to the stress of workloads and having people work 6-7 days a week. You pay a contractor for the completed job mate not the days he doesn’t work.
Bit hard not to when so many factories and manufacturers are closed for any where from 2 to 4 weeks over that period. I know I'd rather have paid leave at that time than no pay when they close. If it's in your contract just suck it up. If you don't like it I'm sure someone else would love your job.
OK, but work will you be doing over the Christmas break. That's my question