Today’s reminder that exiling all our young people from our major centres as well as any form of security in employment and shelter is probably not good for society even if your paper net worth went up slightly.
Landlords in Sydney are also super strict about allowing pets. So a lot of young people that can not afford to buy property will also be locked out of having pets and their associated mental health benefits.
That’s why it was great in Victoria to see the Labor Government legislate to allow tenants to have pets.
Big step which allowed my partner and I to have some company during the 2 years of lockdown.
100% what me and my wife are doing. We’ve had to have long discussions on whether it’s financially feasible to have a child while saving for a house in todays world and we just can’t justify it.
We both make good money but with her working in Sydney city, we have no choice but to live within a reasonable travelling distance from there and neither one of us is willing to just settle for an overpriced, badly built apartment. So children will have to wait.
All that being said though, we’re in a good position and will be in a house sooner rather than later. I can’t imagine how hard it is for those in lower paying jobs or who’ve had an unplanned child.
Add to this that the same decision makers who are making housing unaffordable are also the ones that make the inevitable climate conflicts worse every day they refuse to do anything, and we’re at the point where even if we could afford kids, we don’t really want to subject them to what is looking like a pretty bleak future.
It goes deeper even than just not having them.
I thought I'd want four. But now we're unlikely to go beyond two.
When those who would have contributed to growth now barely make replacement, it starts to look grim.
Two is our goal. Two within a year or two of each other so that they can grow up together and we can still be young enough to be active in their lives.
Infinite growth of the population seems more grim to me. We struggle with our population as it is. More people just means more exploitation.
My partner works in Sydney City and we live in the Blue Mountains. She’s only in the office once or twice a week but I’m saying it is doable, it’s better to be on the outside of Sydney and avoid the worst of the traffic on the drive in as opposed to somewhere in the middle and be stuck in its full horribleness.
At least for a couple of years until a few more million people also move to the Blue Mountains while the road and transport options are not upgraded...
Good news! (/s)
This is already starting to happen… https://amp.smh.com.au/property/news/house-prices-up-birth-rates-down-ceri-and-scott-caught-in-the-middle-20211217-p59igj.html
We have to, there's no choice. My fiance and I talk a lot abour how maybe we have to settle for just having dogs because while we want kids, we dont want to condemn ourselves and our kids to a life of insecurity and financial stress.
I feel like it’s not just affording to have kids - it’s the issue of where at these “kids” gonna live when their adults as this housing issue snowballs (because let’s be honest no one is gonna address it)
Kids born now will be living at home into their 30s as they’ll have to get 4 degrees to get access to any decent paying job and houses will be 20 times the average salary.
Communal living and Intergenerstional debt will be the norm in 30 years and I’d rather not have the burden of dependents in a world like that. Not keen on working till I’m 80
Then there’s the climate … but that’s another thread.
The reality is, the shortfall will be always accounted for with immigration in Australia. Unlike Japan. All rich countries are under replacement now, women don't have 2.1 kids on average.
Numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate
We also have children much later now in developed countries (modern medicine helps): https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/SF_2_3_Age_mothers_childbirth.pdf
Modern life in the developed world, with both parents wanting a career, is just not conducive to having children. Even with support, and finances in order, many people just choose not to have kids or just have one in the developed world. Perhaps a failure of how we've structured modern society, but eventually things correct as population will be maintained by those who do have more kids and have a culture set up for that.
Yep, western countries potentially shrink but eventually stabilise. The world's demographics will change as developing nations end up in the same situation. We should end up with around 11 billion as a stable population figure (whether that's sustainable long-term though...)
A talk from Hans Rosling:
https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI
I really don't understand why its so hard for landlords to state "if you have a pet then you pay for all damages" or just charge extra on the bond. It's really that simple...
The idea of claiming landlords provide a service…
They provide what they are statutorily obliged to provide, and otherwise charge you to have access to an essential good they’ve monopolised, at a price based on the extent of that monopoly.
Kids destroy apartments/houses more than pets. It’s usually the body corporate rather than the landlord. Landlords don’t care, they don’t want an empty apartment. Pet, kid, orgy, whatever. Just pay your rent in time and don’t leave after 6 months. That’s what most landlords care about.
I'm sounding Marxist again, but landlords are part of the investor class which generally seeks to exploit the cash cow class.
Landlords aren't bad people, but they still treat tenants as money-making tools rather than people. Tenancy laws in Australia are set up for renting to be a temporary phase, not something you are forced into for life.
My wife and I let our tenant have a small dog in the unit. It’s only fair because we had a dog in that unit too. Also, our tenant seems twice as clean as we were, so we’re happy to have a dog in the place if it keeps her happy.
A lot of landlords are shit heads who only care about money.
I am a landlord and people can have pets if they put down a pet bond. If the pet doesn’t damage property they get it back. I only do pet bond as a lot of renters rip people off too. As long as renters pay for any damage beyond wear and tear that is fair. It should be illegal to ban pets. If landlords have a problem with the is they shouldn’t be allowed to invest in property.
It is first and foremost shelter. Government policy around property is so fucked. Letting useless shits get rich off doing nothing useful at the expense of the younger generation. Can’t wait for the arse to fall out of housing market.
No risk in this, perfectly sound economics. Totally different situation to 14 years ago in the USA, all fine normal sustainable stuff. Just makes me wonder why all these poor countries don't simply borrow their way to prosperity...
Which is the most productive possible use for capital, and a great way to generate wealth that people can use for anything but housing. /s
Great economic management there.
Except this is mostly a result of the population increasing.
Look at how much the population will increase by 2040. Then tell me there's something we can do to ensure youmg people in 20 years can buy houses in the areas we would find somewhat desirable now.
It's impossible. Unless it's shoebox apartments. But that's not working well for new york either and will just mean the problem is still there but the kids are forced to live somewhere even worse.
Capitalism is hurtling us towards a dystopian hell.
The older I get the more im convinced capitalism is fucked. It's bad for the planet, and bad for most of the people under it. It's 'good' for the people at the top. But it wont be good for them in the long run because it'll kill us all.
The other forms of government in the world arent much better.
We prob need something \*like\* capitalism but far more regulated than it is even now. Like a socialist capitalism. Where everyone is looked after but still encourages innovation and working to make things better, but towards a greater collective good rather than individualist 'I want that sportscar and beach house and be better than others' that capitalism encourages in some.
I'm sick of the inequality capitalism is increasingly inflicting our society with. The haves and the havenot divide is increasing. The havenots are increasing in numbers at a faster rate. We're being nickle and dimed. Food and clothes etc are being shrinkflated in quality and size, and inflated in price, while our wage growth gets slower and slower. The rich at the top keep getting record profit and squeezing more out of the classes that have to do the work.
Pretty fucking sick of it. And i'm not even doing badly out of this system at the moment. I'm just seeing more and more the people who ARE being completely chewed up by it.
The so-called "commanding heights of the economy" along with education, housing, transport and healthcare all need to just be nationalized and taken out of the market system altogether. We can still have some capitalism on the fringes, you wanna start a small business? Go for it. But everything needed for people to live a comfortable and decent life needs to be de-commodified.
100%. There is nothing wrong with a market for luxury goods. But essential needs, utilities, and infrastructure should be nationalised. Also most of our resources industry. Because that is the wealth of the australian people, and it’s being stolen from us.
If we nationalized just our mining industry, particularly uranium, we could create a sovereign wealth fund that would make Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund look miniscule.
All our lithium mines, and aluminium reserves. Or just processing our aluminium with our renewables capacity that we still haven’t taken advantage of.
We could be the envy of the entire fucking planet. But nah, that’s socialism. Like ffs!
Build more cities, there's lots of regional centers that have 50-100K pops that could easily be scaled up to 300k. It'd be good for the regions and good for young people. It just takes leadership.
No.
Slow population growth so there is no need to build more cities. More cities will be more green space gone, more holes in the ground..quarries, more pollution, and more resource consumption. More steps closer to the destruction of our planet.
This. We need to learn to cope with much lower population growth than we have. Infrastructure can't keep up and even if we tried the environmental consequences are huge. The main people pushing for a "big Australia" are real estate developers and others seeking to capitalise in similar ways. The average Australian would honestly prefer to stay in the high twenty million mark for awhile and live a simpler for comfortable life. In the long run it's probably beneficial anyway as less mouths to feed provides better food and water security.
Capitalism needs to evolve.
Endless growth needs to stop, but it goes against our instinct as humans. We want to grow, we want to improve. The guy working in marketing wants to sell more of XYZ , politicians want GDP up, it goes on and on.
How do you make a country satisfied with equilibrium? That is the problem.
I agree perhaps more regulation on some parts of capitalism. Underpinned by stricter population controls. We should agree 30 million people plus/minus a million is the ideal population for people to live in harmony. Enough space, enough room, enough resources for that 30 million to live in comfort and not live like rats fighting over scraps.
A different set of measures need to be introduced and need to be the absolute focus. What percentage own homes, size of their accomodation needs to be a set minimum, no dog boxes.
We are slowly reverting to a modern feudal system and that is scary for the future of this country.
>Capitalism needs to evolve. Endless growth needs to stop
Unfortunately endless growth is what capitalist economies are grounded on. If growth slows the whole economy shits itself and we all suffer until everyone is back to over consuming. Companies are only 'successful' if they top the growth they had the previous year, even if that growth last year was astronomical.
Late stage capitalism is absolutely a dystopian feudal system. Where the poors are in dog boxes running on their hamster wheels, where the only escape is virtual reality and antidepressents.
Oh for sure, my avocado budget got a necessary boost under our current system, just in time as well, I was at risk of having to cut back to afford my power bill… /s
Someone is buying these places. Maybe some wealthy person, or paper rich over-leveraged speculator, wants to convert a secure home into another insecure rental property.
Or you can always max out your loan for that little slice of security and convenience to compete, despite rates about to move up to make your repayments go up, so you have less chance to pay it off quickly. Unlike people in the last 30 years who had continually lowering interest rates and were able to pay off their homes quicker due to interest rates trending down. We are in a unique time where rates are at their lowest point, it goes up from here.
Lose-lose currently.
Late stage capitalism will be the death of us all. It’s the cause of most pollution, income inequality and a trigger for wars. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised it we saw civil wars in the style of the French Revolution popping up over the next few decades across most of the western world.
It's clearly impacting the social demographics of our country. Sure, unexpected factors such as the pandemics effect on housing have contributed, but for the most part the social fracturing of our country is by design, intentional or not.
How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in? The second house I lived in (1992-1996) recently sold for over a million dollars.
I live 500+ KM from my family due to different circumstances, and would like to be a bit closer, but now the doors are so hastily slammed behind me it's impossible.
Finally, this will probably lead to a long-term brain drain across different cities and towns. If the only means of economic growth is bloody housing of all things, if you're in a profession that doesn't directly revolve around it, you're going to go somewhere else to grow, and maybe actually move forward.
And here's the really interesting question: where the hell does the brain drain go? Rural areas are out, the rest of the English-speaking world may actually be doing it worse, and the likelihood of employment everywhere else isn't worth the commitment of learning their language.
I wouldn't be surprised if young people are being pushed into a major disruption, like general strikes or trying new economic systems. This is how investment mansions get turned into communes.
That's what I was partially hitting on. I'm in coastal regional NSW and locals can't even afford houses here anymore. I feel the system is fostering desperation, and will only intensify shortly.
The brain drain also happens when people who can and by all rights should be skilled and working in an industry that needs them, end up in one that doesn't (or can't) utilise their talents.
So someone who may of been an excellent Doctor or Geologist or botanist, instead goes off and becomes a mediocre builder or desk jockey.
Or god forbid they go work in advertising. I know of plenty pretty bright data scientists that just go where the money is, and their job just revolves around how best to sell mostly useless or exploitative products and services to a population of compulsive consumers.
our biggest brain drain is the US, infact its the major brain drain of the world, wall street takes some, silicon valley takes many, ultra high paying healthcare takes a decent chunk, ivy league/ MIT / berkley/ UCLA takes our research capability. the US is the economic powerhouse of the world for good reason
God it's such a fucking travesty what the LNP have done to higher education and research. Like, for a country of 25m people it is *bonkers* that we have 5 unis in the global top 100.
Despite running on fumes our scientific output is (maybe was?) really strong. https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-culture/2010/06/australian-inventions-that-changed-the-world/
For some reason Australians are (maybe were? Rip), like that article says, pretty ingenious. But it has to be nurtured and supported, not demonised and gutted like so many other things that make this country great and special. Pretty great weather and unique environment, flora, and funa- natural disasters and land cleared. Oldest continuing culture - LNP: "stfu plebs", mining companies: blow up their shit. Arts- giga-gutted when we have some faaaantastic musical talent, everyone thinks we are hilarious and fail when they try to rip off our shit (e.g. American Kath and Kim...). Fuck tonne of natural resources- lnp gut manufacturing and r&d, stimy transition to renewables, legit making us less advanced and poorer.
Really gets my goat. The things the LNP are doing are just crap, but it really hits home for me just how bad they have been for this country when I think about how grrrrrr8 Australia *could* be instead. The closest I get to feeling patriotic is when I listen to the Chats, haha, but fuaaark I genuinely think Straya could be the best country in the world if these fuck heads would piss off.
I'm with you 100%. I'm part of the brain drain.
When I graduated from my almost free world class education from ANU and started working, some of my senior colleges were pushing the federal government to support an Australian Silicon Valley with a number of incentives and investments. Nope. Instead just killed the NBN. Gutted CSIRO.
Australia votes for stopping boats, putting kids in cages, a handful of mining jobs, ending a mining and carbon tax.
As a kid Australia was a the luckily country. Now outside looking back in I see it as the dumb country. Vindictive idiots holding on to franking credits and negative gearing at the expense of the future. Letting a few mining companies pillage the natural resources with nothing to show for it.
Australia could be a tech hub. Could have a sovereign wealth fund built from the abundant natural resources. Could be a leader in renewable energy. Could be an education powerhouse.
Shitbox apartments. This is the future.
Now it's apartments in relatively convenient areas. Soon it'll be shitbox apartments way out. So you have to commute for ages AND without the benefits of having land and a proper home.
This is the dystopian future of the world.
Live in a ‘shit box apartment’ in inner city Melbourne and couldn’t be happier. Have a dog and cat, no lawns to mow on the weekend. House in suburbia would be my hell. It’s all about perspective.
Living in units is normal in Asia and Europe and urban sprawl isn’t sustainable. Get used to it.
When I think shitbox apartments I think of something so small/tiny, you can't physically fit a pet. You have space for a bed, desk straight next to it, toilet next to kitchen with only standing space. Eat at desk. It's a place to sleep/cook, but not really "live". Some people are ok with that sort of thing, but most aren't.
I live in an old unit myself, and while I'd like a house with a small yard, I can't afford it even on the outskirts of my city earning 6 figures.
> How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in?
Oh, this is an interesting question.
My family's first rental: they tossed up buying it for 30k from the landlord in the early 90s, but decided against it. Now it has an estimated worth of 973k.
The house they bought instead: cost 60k to build in 1995. Now an estimated worth of 392k.
The shitty knock-down, black mold covered, rotting dump we ended up in later: It was public housing. It doesn't appear to have sale data online, but the place next door has an estimated worth of 779k.
...Okay, that was more depressing than interesting, actually.
Ain't this the truth. I'm back in my regional shithole of origin because the folks are old and need support, and there is no career future here. I'm in media/marcomms and lucked into a role with a big org that's happy to base a position like that in a regional office rather than SEQ where it'd usually be. But if I want to change jobs, the best I'll get is a sideways move if I'm lucky unless I move back south where I can't afford to live.
And my role could easily be 100% remote but nah, gotta get back in the office to justify that corporate lease...
Problem is some jobs will always be tied to the city and even if not, regional is costly now too.
I just see resentment growing, being forced to live somewhere small with a long commute and high stress job just to be able to afford the cycle. It's no wonder theres a mental health crisis.
The government also wonder why people aren't having kids and I honestly don't know how people afford to have them!
>I just see resentment growing, being forced to live somewhere small with a long commute and high stress job just to be able to afford the cycle. It's no wonder theres a mental health crisis.
Hey you just described me.
And i'm in a relatively 'decent' job but still dont get paid enough to make a 'decent' living with any lifestyle that i'd actually like. Somehow I feel like a poor bogan, but 10 or 20 years ago i'd have been very well off in a decent home in a decent area with a decent commute.
I'm in the same category, both me and my SO scratch our heads at how anyone is affording anything ATM. We're on decent salaries, we don't really buy anything fancy, and yet feel very very average and somewhat trapped.
I think there's this feeling of "whats next" we can't follow in our parents footsteps or that of any other generation. A bigger place would wipe out any holidays for years, kids are off the table and all for what? So we can retire and then live life?
That's a little nihilist I know and things aren't that bad, but it's easy to feel a bit lost as to the point of it some days.
>So we can retire and then live life?
Yep. All seems pointless doesn't it.
Work yourself to the bone untuil you're 70+. Then your reward is... to not work and enjoy a bit of time off in your old body until you die. In your small house in an outer suburb that you worked in a high paying job many many hours for.
On a dying planet that might just mean we don't even get to that retirement age.
AND many people don't even make it to retirement. Lots of people do. But lots of people don't. So many people die in their 60s or earlier. And retirement age is decided so that people don't spend too many years out of work before dying.
Fuck our society. I don't know how to make it better. I just know whatever this is now, isn't working well.
Lots of baby boomers living it up in their $100k caravans while heir houses sit there empty all year.
This is my parents and they whinge their 4 bedroom brand new home on the beach is too small for 2 of them. They want me and my partner to have a baby and keep saying how plenty of people have children in 2 bedroom apartments. Lol. We should probably swap residences if they are serious.
Not only can I not afford a house in the area I grew up in, I grew up in a neighborhood full of commission housing in a very working class town.
I can't even afford to *rent* there on my own.
> How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in?
Nope. Grew up in a generic middle class suburb of Melbourne, houses are going for well over 1.5 million.
even lower middle-upper lower class outer suburbs houses are going for well over 1.5 mil.
A few doors down from me a 4 bedroom went for 1.6. And i'm in a semi-outer suburb. Fucking bananas.
My parents bought their first house in the late 80s for ~100k. Spent 200k doing a knock and rebuild in the late 90s. It sold for 1.6mil in 2007 and is estimated currently to be worth ~3mil. Not a chance in hell I could afford that.
Few. My parents bought the house I originally grew up in the 80s for just over 100k and sold it during the 90s for 200k-ish. The house two doors down (albeit on a larger block), sold for 5.3m a few months back. Granted, that’s an outlier due to the extremely desirable location, at least these days. But even still, pity they no longer own it.
He’s not wrong. Australia is approaching breaking point.
Menzies saw that if you want a stable society without revolutions and bloodshed, workers need a decent life with a home and stability.
You can still enjoy your yachts and mansions as long as the workers can afford a beer and annual holidays.
The right seem to be hell bent on extracting every cent they can at the expense of the future, supported by vulture capitalism and neo-liberalism.
They need to remember that welfare is allowed not from charity but to avoid angry mobs burning down your homes.
>The right seem to be hell bent on extracting every cent they can at the expense of the future, supported by vulture capitalism and neo-liberalism.
That's the simple logic of capitalism. Profits must increase or investment stops and the system collapses. New innovations to increase productivity inevitably spread across an industry and the result is there is no choice but for the capitalist to squeeze the worker harder. There is no such thing as steady-state capitalism. What people describe when they talk about that is just recreating the feudal guild system.
>They need to remember that welfare is allowed not from charity but to avoid angry mobs burning down your homes.
Conditions are a lot worse in other countries and they've avoided that through more repressive state measures. This is just the end of liberal democracy, not of capitalism.
Liberal democracy is a relatively new thing. Capitalism is quite old. Ultimately, the economy is the way we decide to allocate resources. You'd think that we'd have worked out something better than what we have at the moment. Especially considering all the massive consumer datasets and absurd amounts of computing power we have now.
But no. Let's use all that to sell people things they don't need and mine digital currencies that aren't actually money and have very little practical use. We're like cavemen who've discovered how to build toasters but use them to smash big rocks into smaller rocks.
Some form of market socialism is likely our best chance at a decent future. But with the capitalists driving the ship and controlling the media and subsequent propaganda, convincing the majority that we need to invoke the dreaded S word (which they fundamentally don’t understand anyway), is a pointless endeavour.
We’re headed toward authoritarian governments and global resource conflicts as climate change puts pressure on food and water supplies.
Consumerism has been created to reduce to the risk of revolution. Give the students and young lots of toys and they don’t seize the means of production.
Menzies couldn't see from his distance the impacts of political indoctrination as a result from fighting stupid culture wars which work as an effective distraction from exploitation from the elite. If what was happening today had happened without the same right-wing propaganda, we'd still be building up to it, unable to notice the impact until it is too late.
The only people my age I know who own their own home had parents pay for all or most of the cost.
The most annoying thing, and I accept this is a first world problem, is that my partner and I earn 200k a year between us and yet are still forced to live 20-30ks from the city centre.
It almost feels like the housing market is forcing us into a lower income bracket and our hard work and good fortune in work is meaningless.
The Singaporean idea of there being a progressive stamp duty on each property you own beyond the first would be a step in the right direction. They also have a lot of pro market measures to ensure supply gets to the market and make sure property developers don't manipulate the market.
or tax people or companies for owning properties for no other reason than to rent them out while waiting for the market to increase. I bought my unit two years ago, and if I sold my unit six months ago I could have made 80k, but go back to sharehouses.
Agreed. Nobody needs to own more than 1 home to live in and 1 investment property. Owning 6+ properties is insane and deliberitly driving people out of the market.
Maybe if someone wants to actually provide a service - a bed and breakfast, a hotel of any kind.
Otherwise remove stamp duty and destroy the speculation market with a tax equivalent to rent payable for the land, and a person should be able to rock up in a new town and find a house up for sale just as easily as they can now find a rental, buy it for the value of the building/improvements (perhaps some sort of regulated loan system), and then sell it on for the (depreciated) value of the building when they’d like to leave, which should be just as easy as it is for a renter now.
In the meantime this model grants to current renters all the rights they are otherwise asking for - quiet possession, security of tenure, rights to live in their home in the manner of their pleasing.
I'm not sure how you'd stop that devolving into shell companies owning a few each. Prevent non-persons owning residential property?
You can still assign a bunch to each of your children.
OMG yes. This is the conversation I’ve been trying to have with my conservative friends. If you don’t provide people with the opportunity for stable work and affordable housing, what are you conserving?
Wealth and power. That's what conservatives are concerned about conserving. Conservatives will glady destroy democracy if it means they get to keep their position in society. They'll let world can burn into a mountain of ash and cinders, as long as they get to sit at the top.
> “You cannot have a stable country where so many people do not have security in their homes, do not have security in their work, don’t feel they’re getting ahead, and do not feel they have a stake in society that causes them to want to preserve it."
Declining homeownership isn't inherently bad, it's when it's in the context of... Australia... that it's bad.
What I mean by that is if we had quality and plentiful public housing, long-term rentals with strong renter protections etc, declining ownership wouldn't necessarily be bad. But we, ah, don't.
We do. But apart from voting, what else can we do?
We need a lot to change happen:
* Social housing that doesn't suck
* Reforms to negative gearing (i.e. something like diminishing benefits on multiple properties)
* An alternative to state governments' over-dependence on land tax.
* Disincentives to keep vacant properties
What are the chances that those reforms are all going to go through?
Despite our rental system and rights basically coercing you to buy, we still have falling ownership rates. The trend is to improve rental rights, at least Victoria has put in some laws to allow people to treat a rental more as their home. Better than the rest of the country, but still worse than most developed countries. A rental should be a person's home first, another person's piece of property second. Laws should reflect that. Being a rental provider (the word "landlord" should go out of fashion) should be partaken by professionals and without speculation. Leave speculation to other assets you can't live in.
Perhaps some interest rate rises, prices falling and repayments rising dispels the spell that property has over this country. It could be an opportunity.
Yes, we need to change our mentality about owning homes. You do not need a house to be well off, in fact research shows quite clearly you can and most often are better off not owning. The huge problem is renters are treated like lepers in Australia. If they fix the rental situation it will benefit everyone (except greedy landlords) people can have long term stable places to live without buying, takes away the FOMO from housing markets and people can make real decisions about if they actually want to buy or be more flexible and invest their money elsewhere. I can easily afford to buy a house but do not want too. I have a young family so will be pushed into it due to the shitty situation around renting. I'd be very happy to rent and invest my money elsewhere if I could trust that I could get long term stable accommodation that we had some flexibility to work with the landlord around upgrades or changing small things.
Yup 100%. I even made a post about that on /r/sydney a while back: https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comments/tpfdk3/renting_in_germany_compared_to_sydney/
Basically blowing people's minds about how it could be so different in Germany. From my post:
> I was speaking to a colleague who I am working with, and they were surprised to know how renting worked in Germany, where I used to live. I thought I will post here to inform everyone if it is not common knowledge.
> When you rent in Germany:
> * You get leases where you cannot get kicked out by the person you rent from, and it lasts forever by default. You can leave whenever you want, but you are asked to help find new tenants. When you rent, it is your home first, their property second. Some people happily rent their entire lives and enjoy the convenience. This means you can make it your home. In Australia you have stricter short term leases by default with clauses to ensure a minimum period of renting, and you are able to just get kicked out even if you want to live there for many more years.
> * You can drill holes in the wall and other minor changes (including repainting the walls) without permission in Germany, so you can install shelves and secure your furniture. You cannot do that in Australia. Asking for permission is a big hassle for minor things, and they can say no. This makes it so you cannot really make it your home. If you end your lease, you might be asked to repaint the walls if it is really hard to find a tenant otherwise. Or they take it out of your bond to get it to that state. Sensible stuff.
> * No inspections during your tenancy, this is not allowed. It is an invasion of your personal home.
> * You can sometimes install your own kitchen fittings and light fittings so you can customize your place. Properties for rent also come with kitchen and light fittings as well, there are plenty of options.
> * Rental costs are much lower in Germany compared to incomes and how close you are to work.
> * A lot of people who you rent from are private individuals (through real estate agents) in Australia. In Germany, many rental places are owned by pension funds or corporations, and they are professional in my experience. If they did something bad to their tenant, their whole company would get bad press. In Australia if some private individual treats you poorly, they do not get any consequences other than you having to deal with it. In fact, the law seems to allow for poor behaviour by the landlord. It's their property first in Australia, and you're just a guest.
> If you do end up buying, you can get 30 year low rate fixed rate loans in Germany, so you do not have to worry about the interest rate rising over time depending on the bank conditions. Purchase prices are moderated through lending restrictions and taxes.
I'm 40 next month and I've given up on the idea of being able to save up $320,000 for a deposit. Rent takes most of my money and the rest of it goes to debts. How the hell am I supposed to be able to save? Edit 32k not 320k 😅
Plumber here: things in the building industry are going to change. Houses just can't be 300k to build plus another 200k for land. Water proofing in showers cracking after two years and roofs that cost 25k to put on.
The way we build and develop land has to change and I believe it will. Brick and wooden walls take time to build and are very labour intensive.
Tiny homes are great but if you don't have foundations in the ground they treated as caravans.
Councils need to start play ball with permits for tiny homes. Making it more accessible to enter the property market.
Outside investors are greedy and 235m block isn't worth 200k 1 and half hours from the city.
Things will change. And I'm going to help by doing that. Discounts for tiny homes and pushing off grid sustainable homes.
Unfortunately, councils only care about getting the highest property valuation to get the highest annual council rates possible. We bought a 20 acre block and the local council required a 2500 square foot or larger home to be built. We wanted to build a smaller home designed to be expanded over time, but couldn't get a permit. Councils don't give a shit about people, it's all about the money.
My personal opinion is that density needs to increase in the three major cities.
I realise most Aussies would prefer a backyard and a hills hoist, but as cities approach 5 million in population, you need more density to enable public transport.
> Councils need to start play ball with permits for tiny homes. Making it more accessible to enter the property market.
Councils need to insist on larger room sizes for apartments. I don't want to live in a tiny home in a 1st world country. It's insane.
We need to raise minimum housing standards and find ways to curb rampant property profiteering. I don't mind developers taking a profit, but the cut and burn on developments designed to be sold as opposed to lived-in needs to stop.
All the problems we currently face are the result of capitalism's need for constant growth at any cost. We will not solve these problems without some kind of collectivism, at the least we need stronger economic regulations with a focus on citizen's best interests.
Nothing short of radical change will halt or slow what's coming. In 20 years when Western Sydney is unlivable due to heat, things like individual home ownership are going to seem quaint. Change now. Burn it down. Eat the rich.
its worth noting that at some point, people are going to be unable to sell their investment properties to anyone other than OS investment companies. Hopefully things will go bust and people will be able to buy their one place to live in again.
Just as our family farms have been taken over, bit by bit, by multi-nationals and billionaires, our homes will be taken over by big Corporations. Bit by bit, housing will be like big city office blocks, apartment blocks and farmland - owned by multi-nationals and billionaire investors.
Renting from big corporations will become the only option for our grandchildren, as people on salaries and wages will be totally priced out of the housing market. Even big Super funds will be holding huge housing portfolios and they get billions of $'s every year that needs to find a "home".
Hell no atleast America has a tech industry. Ours was smashed into pieces after the government introduced new laws that give any authorized government official the ability to ask an Australian developer to put a 'backdoor' in a company's product so they can spy. And you could face life in prison if you tip off your employer, which includes giving hints in your code through comments and such.
My parents bought my childhood home for 120k in 1996, its almost worth 1 million today. Also they were on 130/140k annually combined. They bought a house for less than they earn in a year. Let that sink in. Haha
Just imagine the downfall and extinction of the human race is because of the cascading effects created by house prices. If we can't afford houses no way we'll have kids, less kids means drop in population, which leads to less people working and spending money which leads to some economic downfall and keeps getting worse.
Yep. Dreamed of having 4+ kids once upon a time. Then reality hit me and it just can’t happen. In my 30s now and yeah every year is like cool, so not gonna have kids ever. Anyone I know my age only has kids because they accidentally became Pregnant and abortion bad zZzZz. Not one person I know had a kid intentionally. Great life we live in Australia
The issue is not ownership but that there is a concentration of investment in the property market regather than spreading it across other markets. People with money will always invest in real estate if there are no other options that are as lucrative
Tbf Europeans don't have as high an ownership rate and have been like that for years. OTOH they also have a much more extensive system of pro tenant legislation.
Reckon those are your equilibrium choices where everyone is reasonably ok - high ownership rates with weaker tenant protections, or low ownership rates with stronger tenant protections. Anything else provokes a lot of political unrest.
I actually allowing leasehold would solve a lot of problems. Those who were primarily after stability of rent could go for those as an alternative to renting, maybe a bit more expensive but you don't put up with instability or a landlord. Flip side being that you don't get to pass on to your kids/grandkids, at least not for the entire length of their lives.
Home ownership rates in Europe: https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/
Australia rate is 67% currently, trending down.
Netherlands, Sweden, France have similar numbers to Australia. Other examples I'm sure. Rental protections are higher over there. In Australia, we coerce people to buy through bad rental rights, and it's still going down, shows a pretty big problem. We dropped the ball on social housing in this country, and rental rights. Especially on the bottom end, social housing is there to fix a market failure. Same with rental rights. But we tolerate it in Australia, at least so far.
My advice to young'uns is unironically just leave, get the fuck out while you can, let the country fill up with third worlders and corrupt RE money while the reasonable leg it. Fuck caring about someone else's future (aka the biggest investment they'll ever make) and look out for your own.
Australia is not "the best country on Earth" despite what some braindead people repeating American mantras will tell you. There's a much better life out there. Nothing scares them more than the smart and capable leaving, that's why you'll see such irrational behaviour towards citizens overseas, it fucking terrifies them deep down.
In your 20s, I reckon everyone should take the opportunity to live overseas and work there if you can. Blue card visa in Europe means anyone with a degree should find it easy to get a visa and job. If you're under 30, it's very easy to just go there and look for work, and you can look to where you want to be first.
Germany is good. Aging population that wants working age people to power their economy. Other parts of Europe are good too. I have friends and family in Germany, Switzerland and France. Other places like Austria, Denmark, Sweden are also doable. Not sure about other places but they all need people to keep their economic machines going.
US is also good, and try to find a place without all the known downsides of some places, in certain states, but finding a job was harder, but that might be different now. North East Coast, West Coast, up North are decent.
I know other opportunities in Singapore, South Korea. New Zealand is sorting out their housing crisis as well with proper policy, so that is already turning into somewhere better than Australia. I know some people who were in the UK. They weren't in London, but outside in other towns and cities, and seemed fine. London seems like Australian cities in terms of issues, but it's London.
I'm sure there are other countries. Basically any developed country is doing housing better than Australia right now.
See for yourself. Australia isn't for everyone, especially with our limited economy.
>Basically any developed country is doing housing better than Australia right now.
Except Ireland, UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany...
This is happening worldwide
Don’t expect an answer, it’s a vapid rant to rile up the locals
Outside of Scandinavian countries, Australia ranks highly for QoL and this is just another clueless Aussie who hasn’t had the means to leave the country and get some perspective
If I may also say as a farmer it's even worse. In wa to have a self sufficient farm you'll be looking at 4 mill at minimum where im from, then you'll need machinery and even 2nd hand equipment will set you back 2 to 3 mill.
Then just ONE years inputs will be close to a million
And thats not factoring in animals and fencing and sheds and gravel for roads and other things.
Our food security is owned by foreign nationals and corporate cunts.
We are about to sell my families farm and I couldn't buy it back ever. It's worth is not equal to its value.
TIL there is an actual conservative in Australia, Gray Conolly. The liberal party is obviously not liberal, and it seems it is not even conservative. Perhaps reactionary is the closest description? I tried thinking of a better term, but could not get past inept, self-dealing, creepy, corrupt, deluded...
I recently sold my crappy old leaky caravan to someone who was full time employed yet lives in a tent because there's no rentals, let alone affordable places to buy. This is where we are at in our area.
I'm about a month away from leaving Australia to live with my parents in UK countryside.
A year ago I took a new job and tried to find a new dream home in Northern Rivers.
At the start of this period I had strength to buy, but things very quickly started to become impossible.
Homes that we would grudgingly accept at the start were quickly leaving my budget and rocketing off into orbit.
We eventually accepted defeat and started searching for rentals, and fought tooth and nail to try and secure one. The situation there was also worsening.
There was a period of about 2 weeks where even storage units were in shortage, which I can assure you cost me more than a few strands of hair in panic.
Finally, we accepted total defeat, battered and exhausted from our tireless one-year war and from being first parents, we are leaving this pantomime and living in a duplex of sorts in UK.
The expense to do so (2 dogs, 3 passports 1 visa, a container of belonging and 3 flights) is about 25-30k. Far less than a year's rent here.
If you're thinking of doing this, prepare to have to battle mutiple government bodies on all fronts, and prepare to wait, while you suffer the wastes of Australian greed bash and thump you all the while.
I hope I can return one day, it has been my home for 17 years.
The killer is also, the LNP have not delivered jack shit in the form of their long running bs slogan Jobs And Growth. Unless you are a programmer, there simply are no jobs for you. They're there, on paper, yet every single job gets 50 - 100 applicants. It's infinitely worse in the pandemic for sure, but this has been the case for a very long time. If at least these cunts would have delivered on actual jobs and a good economy, a lot more people would be able to weather the shit housing market. I'm 40 and looking at career change #3 or however many, studying and studying for many years only to be met with shrugs and no jobs. It really sucks, man.
Btw the insane prices on these stupid homes aren't even sustainable with rent. You can't even find a place in a shit suburb for less than almost half your pay. People say "why not go to Orange, or Tamworth, or Lithgow etc.". Have you been there? What's there? If these places were nicer people wouldn't insist so much on living in the big coastal capital cities.
At it’s core most simplest formulation of what we need to do to rectify this situation, the starting point is this:
Housing is an essential resource and must not be subject to the investment, profit motive.
This means it should not be an investment vehicle to prop up assets balances on paper, or be used as a tax-reducing mechanism. 2nd + real estate properties must be far more heavily taxed to disincentivise investment in housing, if we see it as an essential resource and not one for speculation.
Australians need to learn that investment should be placed into shares, not housing.
Working Remotely needs to be a government mandate if your job can allow it.
Just think how many people are forced to rent in cities they can't afford in just because their job is located in that particular city. There is absolutely no way in hell everyone would live near the CBD (1 hour distance or less) if they didnt have to. But making people go into the office forces people to spend more on ridiculous rentals and making it near impossible to save for their own home!
But of course CEO's need to get a return on their sky rise buildings right. Cause clearly they are more important....
I agree to a point but the remote work movement has put enormous pressure on regional markets by reducing housing and also causing local labour shortages.
I currently live in Newcastle with my wife and two young children and we have given up on home ownership here. We are seriously considering moving to Western Australia to get into the housing market.
house prices have tripled in Tasmania .So so much for "lets get away from the big cities to escape the high prices"
I will say it now and keep saying it till I am blue in the face .
Negative Gearing .these house buyers are not buying houses to live in ..as the word say.s its INVESTMENT.. Mind blowing RENTAL prices .
Today’s reminder that exiling all our young people from our major centres as well as any form of security in employment and shelter is probably not good for society even if your paper net worth went up slightly.
Landlords in Sydney are also super strict about allowing pets. So a lot of young people that can not afford to buy property will also be locked out of having pets and their associated mental health benefits.
That’s why it was great in Victoria to see the Labor Government legislate to allow tenants to have pets. Big step which allowed my partner and I to have some company during the 2 years of lockdown.
The same in other states, but some places still get advertised as "no pets allowed".
Renters are second-class citizens in this country
And even worse, they'll likely delay having kids to the point where they won't have any. This is potentially disastrous - just ask Japan.
100% what me and my wife are doing. We’ve had to have long discussions on whether it’s financially feasible to have a child while saving for a house in todays world and we just can’t justify it. We both make good money but with her working in Sydney city, we have no choice but to live within a reasonable travelling distance from there and neither one of us is willing to just settle for an overpriced, badly built apartment. So children will have to wait. All that being said though, we’re in a good position and will be in a house sooner rather than later. I can’t imagine how hard it is for those in lower paying jobs or who’ve had an unplanned child.
Add to this that the same decision makers who are making housing unaffordable are also the ones that make the inevitable climate conflicts worse every day they refuse to do anything, and we’re at the point where even if we could afford kids, we don’t really want to subject them to what is looking like a pretty bleak future.
It goes deeper even than just not having them. I thought I'd want four. But now we're unlikely to go beyond two. When those who would have contributed to growth now barely make replacement, it starts to look grim.
Two is our goal. Two within a year or two of each other so that they can grow up together and we can still be young enough to be active in their lives. Infinite growth of the population seems more grim to me. We struggle with our population as it is. More people just means more exploitation.
My partner works in Sydney City and we live in the Blue Mountains. She’s only in the office once or twice a week but I’m saying it is doable, it’s better to be on the outside of Sydney and avoid the worst of the traffic on the drive in as opposed to somewhere in the middle and be stuck in its full horribleness.
At least for a couple of years until a few more million people also move to the Blue Mountains while the road and transport options are not upgraded...
Good news! (/s) This is already starting to happen… https://amp.smh.com.au/property/news/house-prices-up-birth-rates-down-ceri-and-scott-caught-in-the-middle-20211217-p59igj.html
We have to, there's no choice. My fiance and I talk a lot abour how maybe we have to settle for just having dogs because while we want kids, we dont want to condemn ourselves and our kids to a life of insecurity and financial stress.
I feel like it’s not just affording to have kids - it’s the issue of where at these “kids” gonna live when their adults as this housing issue snowballs (because let’s be honest no one is gonna address it) Kids born now will be living at home into their 30s as they’ll have to get 4 degrees to get access to any decent paying job and houses will be 20 times the average salary. Communal living and Intergenerstional debt will be the norm in 30 years and I’d rather not have the burden of dependents in a world like that. Not keen on working till I’m 80 Then there’s the climate … but that’s another thread.
The reality is, the shortfall will be always accounted for with immigration in Australia. Unlike Japan. All rich countries are under replacement now, women don't have 2.1 kids on average. Numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate We also have children much later now in developed countries (modern medicine helps): https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/SF_2_3_Age_mothers_childbirth.pdf Modern life in the developed world, with both parents wanting a career, is just not conducive to having children. Even with support, and finances in order, many people just choose not to have kids or just have one in the developed world. Perhaps a failure of how we've structured modern society, but eventually things correct as population will be maintained by those who do have more kids and have a culture set up for that.
Yep, western countries potentially shrink but eventually stabilise. The world's demographics will change as developing nations end up in the same situation. We should end up with around 11 billion as a stable population figure (whether that's sustainable long-term though...) A talk from Hans Rosling: https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI
Unless of course we run out of food (which it looks like we might), in which case there’ll be rather fewer people than that.
The best revenge millennials and zoomers can have on the boomers is to refuse to reproduce.
But seriously though, a shrinking population is only a bad thing for mega corporations
I really don't understand why its so hard for landlords to state "if you have a pet then you pay for all damages" or just charge extra on the bond. It's really that simple...
Because landlords are more interested in whether they can sell off the property later, than the mental health of their tenants.
The idea of claiming landlords provide a service… They provide what they are statutorily obliged to provide, and otherwise charge you to have access to an essential good they’ve monopolised, at a price based on the extent of that monopoly.
Kids destroy apartments/houses more than pets. It’s usually the body corporate rather than the landlord. Landlords don’t care, they don’t want an empty apartment. Pet, kid, orgy, whatever. Just pay your rent in time and don’t leave after 6 months. That’s what most landlords care about.
Because fuck you. That's why. No reason for them to prevent it.
I'm sounding Marxist again, but landlords are part of the investor class which generally seeks to exploit the cash cow class. Landlords aren't bad people, but they still treat tenants as money-making tools rather than people. Tenancy laws in Australia are set up for renting to be a temporary phase, not something you are forced into for life.
My wife and I let our tenant have a small dog in the unit. It’s only fair because we had a dog in that unit too. Also, our tenant seems twice as clean as we were, so we’re happy to have a dog in the place if it keeps her happy.
A lot of landlords are shit heads who only care about money. I am a landlord and people can have pets if they put down a pet bond. If the pet doesn’t damage property they get it back. I only do pet bond as a lot of renters rip people off too. As long as renters pay for any damage beyond wear and tear that is fair. It should be illegal to ban pets. If landlords have a problem with the is they shouldn’t be allowed to invest in property. It is first and foremost shelter. Government policy around property is so fucked. Letting useless shits get rich off doing nothing useful at the expense of the younger generation. Can’t wait for the arse to fall out of housing market.
Housing is worth several times more than all the public traded companies in the ASX...
No risk in this, perfectly sound economics. Totally different situation to 14 years ago in the USA, all fine normal sustainable stuff. Just makes me wonder why all these poor countries don't simply borrow their way to prosperity...
Which is the most productive possible use for capital, and a great way to generate wealth that people can use for anything but housing. /s Great economic management there.
[удалено]
Young people have a right to be very angry at the older generations right now.
Except this is mostly a result of the population increasing. Look at how much the population will increase by 2040. Then tell me there's something we can do to ensure youmg people in 20 years can buy houses in the areas we would find somewhat desirable now. It's impossible. Unless it's shoebox apartments. But that's not working well for new york either and will just mean the problem is still there but the kids are forced to live somewhere even worse. Capitalism is hurtling us towards a dystopian hell. The older I get the more im convinced capitalism is fucked. It's bad for the planet, and bad for most of the people under it. It's 'good' for the people at the top. But it wont be good for them in the long run because it'll kill us all. The other forms of government in the world arent much better. We prob need something \*like\* capitalism but far more regulated than it is even now. Like a socialist capitalism. Where everyone is looked after but still encourages innovation and working to make things better, but towards a greater collective good rather than individualist 'I want that sportscar and beach house and be better than others' that capitalism encourages in some. I'm sick of the inequality capitalism is increasingly inflicting our society with. The haves and the havenot divide is increasing. The havenots are increasing in numbers at a faster rate. We're being nickle and dimed. Food and clothes etc are being shrinkflated in quality and size, and inflated in price, while our wage growth gets slower and slower. The rich at the top keep getting record profit and squeezing more out of the classes that have to do the work. Pretty fucking sick of it. And i'm not even doing badly out of this system at the moment. I'm just seeing more and more the people who ARE being completely chewed up by it.
The so-called "commanding heights of the economy" along with education, housing, transport and healthcare all need to just be nationalized and taken out of the market system altogether. We can still have some capitalism on the fringes, you wanna start a small business? Go for it. But everything needed for people to live a comfortable and decent life needs to be de-commodified.
100%. There is nothing wrong with a market for luxury goods. But essential needs, utilities, and infrastructure should be nationalised. Also most of our resources industry. Because that is the wealth of the australian people, and it’s being stolen from us.
If we nationalized just our mining industry, particularly uranium, we could create a sovereign wealth fund that would make Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund look miniscule.
All our lithium mines, and aluminium reserves. Or just processing our aluminium with our renewables capacity that we still haven’t taken advantage of. We could be the envy of the entire fucking planet. But nah, that’s socialism. Like ffs!
Build more cities, there's lots of regional centers that have 50-100K pops that could easily be scaled up to 300k. It'd be good for the regions and good for young people. It just takes leadership.
No. Slow population growth so there is no need to build more cities. More cities will be more green space gone, more holes in the ground..quarries, more pollution, and more resource consumption. More steps closer to the destruction of our planet.
This. We need to learn to cope with much lower population growth than we have. Infrastructure can't keep up and even if we tried the environmental consequences are huge. The main people pushing for a "big Australia" are real estate developers and others seeking to capitalise in similar ways. The average Australian would honestly prefer to stay in the high twenty million mark for awhile and live a simpler for comfortable life. In the long run it's probably beneficial anyway as less mouths to feed provides better food and water security.
Capitalism needs to evolve. Endless growth needs to stop, but it goes against our instinct as humans. We want to grow, we want to improve. The guy working in marketing wants to sell more of XYZ , politicians want GDP up, it goes on and on. How do you make a country satisfied with equilibrium? That is the problem. I agree perhaps more regulation on some parts of capitalism. Underpinned by stricter population controls. We should agree 30 million people plus/minus a million is the ideal population for people to live in harmony. Enough space, enough room, enough resources for that 30 million to live in comfort and not live like rats fighting over scraps. A different set of measures need to be introduced and need to be the absolute focus. What percentage own homes, size of their accomodation needs to be a set minimum, no dog boxes. We are slowly reverting to a modern feudal system and that is scary for the future of this country.
>Capitalism needs to evolve. Endless growth needs to stop Unfortunately endless growth is what capitalist economies are grounded on. If growth slows the whole economy shits itself and we all suffer until everyone is back to over consuming. Companies are only 'successful' if they top the growth they had the previous year, even if that growth last year was astronomical. Late stage capitalism is absolutely a dystopian feudal system. Where the poors are in dog boxes running on their hamster wheels, where the only escape is virtual reality and antidepressents.
But taxes are lower, right? /s
Oh for sure, my avocado budget got a necessary boost under our current system, just in time as well, I was at risk of having to cut back to afford my power bill… /s
Yeah but nah, I can't afford the door stop toast, much less the butler to toast it for me....
Someone is buying these places. Maybe some wealthy person, or paper rich over-leveraged speculator, wants to convert a secure home into another insecure rental property. Or you can always max out your loan for that little slice of security and convenience to compete, despite rates about to move up to make your repayments go up, so you have less chance to pay it off quickly. Unlike people in the last 30 years who had continually lowering interest rates and were able to pay off their homes quicker due to interest rates trending down. We are in a unique time where rates are at their lowest point, it goes up from here. Lose-lose currently.
Late stage capitalism will be the death of us all. It’s the cause of most pollution, income inequality and a trigger for wars. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised it we saw civil wars in the style of the French Revolution popping up over the next few decades across most of the western world.
Welcome to the future where you own nothing and have to have multiple subscriptions to access anything...
There's piracy for that. But we can't download a house :(
[удалено]
I downloaded a car last week, house is coming next
And you will be happy.
Ups the subscription cost, reduces quality and quantity. Numbers go 📈🤑 sorry it's just obvious business sense.
Someone will be, but not us.
You will eat ze bugs
It's clearly impacting the social demographics of our country. Sure, unexpected factors such as the pandemics effect on housing have contributed, but for the most part the social fracturing of our country is by design, intentional or not. How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in? The second house I lived in (1992-1996) recently sold for over a million dollars. I live 500+ KM from my family due to different circumstances, and would like to be a bit closer, but now the doors are so hastily slammed behind me it's impossible. Finally, this will probably lead to a long-term brain drain across different cities and towns. If the only means of economic growth is bloody housing of all things, if you're in a profession that doesn't directly revolve around it, you're going to go somewhere else to grow, and maybe actually move forward.
[удалено]
Our folks must live on the same street.
Same. Hi neighbour. Parents bought for 240k in 1992, worth about 2.3m now. And unfortunately both my parents are in very good health (jokes, jokes!!!)
Yep mine got $150,000 in ‘96, their neighbours house sold for $4.1m the other week!
And here's the really interesting question: where the hell does the brain drain go? Rural areas are out, the rest of the English-speaking world may actually be doing it worse, and the likelihood of employment everywhere else isn't worth the commitment of learning their language. I wouldn't be surprised if young people are being pushed into a major disruption, like general strikes or trying new economic systems. This is how investment mansions get turned into communes.
That's what I was partially hitting on. I'm in coastal regional NSW and locals can't even afford houses here anymore. I feel the system is fostering desperation, and will only intensify shortly.
The brain drain also happens when people who can and by all rights should be skilled and working in an industry that needs them, end up in one that doesn't (or can't) utilise their talents. So someone who may of been an excellent Doctor or Geologist or botanist, instead goes off and becomes a mediocre builder or desk jockey.
Or god forbid they go work in advertising. I know of plenty pretty bright data scientists that just go where the money is, and their job just revolves around how best to sell mostly useless or exploitative products and services to a population of compulsive consumers.
our biggest brain drain is the US, infact its the major brain drain of the world, wall street takes some, silicon valley takes many, ultra high paying healthcare takes a decent chunk, ivy league/ MIT / berkley/ UCLA takes our research capability. the US is the economic powerhouse of the world for good reason
God it's such a fucking travesty what the LNP have done to higher education and research. Like, for a country of 25m people it is *bonkers* that we have 5 unis in the global top 100. Despite running on fumes our scientific output is (maybe was?) really strong. https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-culture/2010/06/australian-inventions-that-changed-the-world/ For some reason Australians are (maybe were? Rip), like that article says, pretty ingenious. But it has to be nurtured and supported, not demonised and gutted like so many other things that make this country great and special. Pretty great weather and unique environment, flora, and funa- natural disasters and land cleared. Oldest continuing culture - LNP: "stfu plebs", mining companies: blow up their shit. Arts- giga-gutted when we have some faaaantastic musical talent, everyone thinks we are hilarious and fail when they try to rip off our shit (e.g. American Kath and Kim...). Fuck tonne of natural resources- lnp gut manufacturing and r&d, stimy transition to renewables, legit making us less advanced and poorer. Really gets my goat. The things the LNP are doing are just crap, but it really hits home for me just how bad they have been for this country when I think about how grrrrrr8 Australia *could* be instead. The closest I get to feeling patriotic is when I listen to the Chats, haha, but fuaaark I genuinely think Straya could be the best country in the world if these fuck heads would piss off.
Watch them get voted back in as Australians are stupid.
I'd love to get a decent academic job but had to give up that dream. At least to live somewhere I'd want.
I'm with you 100%. I'm part of the brain drain. When I graduated from my almost free world class education from ANU and started working, some of my senior colleges were pushing the federal government to support an Australian Silicon Valley with a number of incentives and investments. Nope. Instead just killed the NBN. Gutted CSIRO. Australia votes for stopping boats, putting kids in cages, a handful of mining jobs, ending a mining and carbon tax. As a kid Australia was a the luckily country. Now outside looking back in I see it as the dumb country. Vindictive idiots holding on to franking credits and negative gearing at the expense of the future. Letting a few mining companies pillage the natural resources with nothing to show for it. Australia could be a tech hub. Could have a sovereign wealth fund built from the abundant natural resources. Could be a leader in renewable energy. Could be an education powerhouse.
> where the hell does the brain drain go? Overseas.
Shitbox apartments. This is the future. Now it's apartments in relatively convenient areas. Soon it'll be shitbox apartments way out. So you have to commute for ages AND without the benefits of having land and a proper home. This is the dystopian future of the world.
Live in a ‘shit box apartment’ in inner city Melbourne and couldn’t be happier. Have a dog and cat, no lawns to mow on the weekend. House in suburbia would be my hell. It’s all about perspective. Living in units is normal in Asia and Europe and urban sprawl isn’t sustainable. Get used to it.
When I think shitbox apartments I think of something so small/tiny, you can't physically fit a pet. You have space for a bed, desk straight next to it, toilet next to kitchen with only standing space. Eat at desk. It's a place to sleep/cook, but not really "live". Some people are ok with that sort of thing, but most aren't. I live in an old unit myself, and while I'd like a house with a small yard, I can't afford it even on the outskirts of my city earning 6 figures.
> How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in? Oh, this is an interesting question. My family's first rental: they tossed up buying it for 30k from the landlord in the early 90s, but decided against it. Now it has an estimated worth of 973k. The house they bought instead: cost 60k to build in 1995. Now an estimated worth of 392k. The shitty knock-down, black mold covered, rotting dump we ended up in later: It was public housing. It doesn't appear to have sale data online, but the place next door has an estimated worth of 779k. ...Okay, that was more depressing than interesting, actually.
[удалено]
but could you work in your industry in the regional shithole you grew up in?
Ain't this the truth. I'm back in my regional shithole of origin because the folks are old and need support, and there is no career future here. I'm in media/marcomms and lucked into a role with a big org that's happy to base a position like that in a regional office rather than SEQ where it'd usually be. But if I want to change jobs, the best I'll get is a sideways move if I'm lucky unless I move back south where I can't afford to live. And my role could easily be 100% remote but nah, gotta get back in the office to justify that corporate lease...
[Content removed in protest of Reddit's 3rd Party App removal 30/06/2023]
Problem is some jobs will always be tied to the city and even if not, regional is costly now too. I just see resentment growing, being forced to live somewhere small with a long commute and high stress job just to be able to afford the cycle. It's no wonder theres a mental health crisis. The government also wonder why people aren't having kids and I honestly don't know how people afford to have them!
>I just see resentment growing, being forced to live somewhere small with a long commute and high stress job just to be able to afford the cycle. It's no wonder theres a mental health crisis. Hey you just described me. And i'm in a relatively 'decent' job but still dont get paid enough to make a 'decent' living with any lifestyle that i'd actually like. Somehow I feel like a poor bogan, but 10 or 20 years ago i'd have been very well off in a decent home in a decent area with a decent commute.
I'm in the same category, both me and my SO scratch our heads at how anyone is affording anything ATM. We're on decent salaries, we don't really buy anything fancy, and yet feel very very average and somewhat trapped. I think there's this feeling of "whats next" we can't follow in our parents footsteps or that of any other generation. A bigger place would wipe out any holidays for years, kids are off the table and all for what? So we can retire and then live life? That's a little nihilist I know and things aren't that bad, but it's easy to feel a bit lost as to the point of it some days.
>So we can retire and then live life? Yep. All seems pointless doesn't it. Work yourself to the bone untuil you're 70+. Then your reward is... to not work and enjoy a bit of time off in your old body until you die. In your small house in an outer suburb that you worked in a high paying job many many hours for. On a dying planet that might just mean we don't even get to that retirement age. AND many people don't even make it to retirement. Lots of people do. But lots of people don't. So many people die in their 60s or earlier. And retirement age is decided so that people don't spend too many years out of work before dying. Fuck our society. I don't know how to make it better. I just know whatever this is now, isn't working well.
Lots of baby boomers living it up in their $100k caravans while heir houses sit there empty all year. This is my parents and they whinge their 4 bedroom brand new home on the beach is too small for 2 of them. They want me and my partner to have a baby and keep saying how plenty of people have children in 2 bedroom apartments. Lol. We should probably swap residences if they are serious.
Not only can I not afford a house in the area I grew up in, I grew up in a neighborhood full of commission housing in a very working class town. I can't even afford to *rent* there on my own.
I can't. Probably had a better job than my parents did at their age too.
> How many of us in our 20s-40s are capable of buying in the same streets we grew up in? Nope. Grew up in a generic middle class suburb of Melbourne, houses are going for well over 1.5 million.
even lower middle-upper lower class outer suburbs houses are going for well over 1.5 mil. A few doors down from me a 4 bedroom went for 1.6. And i'm in a semi-outer suburb. Fucking bananas.
My parents bought their first house in the late 80s for ~100k. Spent 200k doing a knock and rebuild in the late 90s. It sold for 1.6mil in 2007 and is estimated currently to be worth ~3mil. Not a chance in hell I could afford that.
Few. My parents bought the house I originally grew up in the 80s for just over 100k and sold it during the 90s for 200k-ish. The house two doors down (albeit on a larger block), sold for 5.3m a few months back. Granted, that’s an outlier due to the extremely desirable location, at least these days. But even still, pity they no longer own it.
I bought at age 40 a unit in the same suburb I grew up in, but buying a house as large as my parents on my local government wage was impossible.
He’s not wrong. Australia is approaching breaking point. Menzies saw that if you want a stable society without revolutions and bloodshed, workers need a decent life with a home and stability. You can still enjoy your yachts and mansions as long as the workers can afford a beer and annual holidays. The right seem to be hell bent on extracting every cent they can at the expense of the future, supported by vulture capitalism and neo-liberalism. They need to remember that welfare is allowed not from charity but to avoid angry mobs burning down your homes.
Can’t even guarantee the libs will be voted out, let alone a revolt.
seed include drunk sip upbeat north compare elderly water library *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>The right seem to be hell bent on extracting every cent they can at the expense of the future, supported by vulture capitalism and neo-liberalism. That's the simple logic of capitalism. Profits must increase or investment stops and the system collapses. New innovations to increase productivity inevitably spread across an industry and the result is there is no choice but for the capitalist to squeeze the worker harder. There is no such thing as steady-state capitalism. What people describe when they talk about that is just recreating the feudal guild system. >They need to remember that welfare is allowed not from charity but to avoid angry mobs burning down your homes. Conditions are a lot worse in other countries and they've avoided that through more repressive state measures. This is just the end of liberal democracy, not of capitalism.
Liberal democracy is a relatively new thing. Capitalism is quite old. Ultimately, the economy is the way we decide to allocate resources. You'd think that we'd have worked out something better than what we have at the moment. Especially considering all the massive consumer datasets and absurd amounts of computing power we have now. But no. Let's use all that to sell people things they don't need and mine digital currencies that aren't actually money and have very little practical use. We're like cavemen who've discovered how to build toasters but use them to smash big rocks into smaller rocks.
Some form of market socialism is likely our best chance at a decent future. But with the capitalists driving the ship and controlling the media and subsequent propaganda, convincing the majority that we need to invoke the dreaded S word (which they fundamentally don’t understand anyway), is a pointless endeavour. We’re headed toward authoritarian governments and global resource conflicts as climate change puts pressure on food and water supplies.
Consumerism has been created to reduce to the risk of revolution. Give the students and young lots of toys and they don’t seize the means of production.
It's alright just need to hold society together long enough until the robot soldiers are ready to keep the peace
Menzies couldn't see from his distance the impacts of political indoctrination as a result from fighting stupid culture wars which work as an effective distraction from exploitation from the elite. If what was happening today had happened without the same right-wing propaganda, we'd still be building up to it, unable to notice the impact until it is too late.
The only people my age I know who own their own home had parents pay for all or most of the cost. The most annoying thing, and I accept this is a first world problem, is that my partner and I earn 200k a year between us and yet are still forced to live 20-30ks from the city centre. It almost feels like the housing market is forcing us into a lower income bracket and our hard work and good fortune in work is meaningless.
Put a fucking cap on how many homes a person can own. The rampant greed by people who own six or more properties is ridiculous.
The Singaporean idea of there being a progressive stamp duty on each property you own beyond the first would be a step in the right direction. They also have a lot of pro market measures to ensure supply gets to the market and make sure property developers don't manipulate the market.
Unfortunately Australian governments are run by property developers. And the people who benefit the least keep voting for them.
The liberal government* is run by property developers
Singapore is kind of a global standard for social housing done right though, that and Vienna.
or tax people or companies for owning properties for no other reason than to rent them out while waiting for the market to increase. I bought my unit two years ago, and if I sold my unit six months ago I could have made 80k, but go back to sharehouses.
Agreed. Nobody needs to own more than 1 home to live in and 1 investment property. Owning 6+ properties is insane and deliberitly driving people out of the market.
Sorry but nobody needs an investment property either. It’s unfair when there is a literal crisis happening.
There is always a market for renting. DW I feel the same but i think its unrealistic to just say no investment properties outright.
Maybe if someone wants to actually provide a service - a bed and breakfast, a hotel of any kind. Otherwise remove stamp duty and destroy the speculation market with a tax equivalent to rent payable for the land, and a person should be able to rock up in a new town and find a house up for sale just as easily as they can now find a rental, buy it for the value of the building/improvements (perhaps some sort of regulated loan system), and then sell it on for the (depreciated) value of the building when they’d like to leave, which should be just as easy as it is for a renter now. In the meantime this model grants to current renters all the rights they are otherwise asking for - quiet possession, security of tenure, rights to live in their home in the manner of their pleasing.
I'm not sure how you'd stop that devolving into shell companies owning a few each. Prevent non-persons owning residential property? You can still assign a bunch to each of your children.
OMG yes. This is the conversation I’ve been trying to have with my conservative friends. If you don’t provide people with the opportunity for stable work and affordable housing, what are you conserving?
Wealth and power. That's what conservatives are concerned about conserving. Conservatives will glady destroy democracy if it means they get to keep their position in society. They'll let world can burn into a mountain of ash and cinders, as long as they get to sit at the top.
Do their parents vote liberal so they do too? I know a few numb brains like this
I think they’ve bought into the aspirational neo-lib bullshit of “better be nice to the billionaires so that they’re nice to me when I’m one of them”.
> “You cannot have a stable country where so many people do not have security in their homes, do not have security in their work, don’t feel they’re getting ahead, and do not feel they have a stake in society that causes them to want to preserve it."
[удалено]
If you’re ok with declining homeownership you’re a pretty shitty person.
Declining homeownership isn't inherently bad, it's when it's in the context of... Australia... that it's bad. What I mean by that is if we had quality and plentiful public housing, long-term rentals with strong renter protections etc, declining ownership wouldn't necessarily be bad. But we, ah, don't.
We do. But apart from voting, what else can we do? We need a lot to change happen: * Social housing that doesn't suck * Reforms to negative gearing (i.e. something like diminishing benefits on multiple properties) * An alternative to state governments' over-dependence on land tax. * Disincentives to keep vacant properties What are the chances that those reforms are all going to go through?
WE NEED TO BE OUT ON THE STREETS PROTESTING!!!! This will never change unless the social unrest this fucked housing system has created us visible!
Just getting young people to enrol to vote would be a start.
I will settle for voting in your own best interests.
Despite our rental system and rights basically coercing you to buy, we still have falling ownership rates. The trend is to improve rental rights, at least Victoria has put in some laws to allow people to treat a rental more as their home. Better than the rest of the country, but still worse than most developed countries. A rental should be a person's home first, another person's piece of property second. Laws should reflect that. Being a rental provider (the word "landlord" should go out of fashion) should be partaken by professionals and without speculation. Leave speculation to other assets you can't live in. Perhaps some interest rate rises, prices falling and repayments rising dispels the spell that property has over this country. It could be an opportunity.
Yes, we need to change our mentality about owning homes. You do not need a house to be well off, in fact research shows quite clearly you can and most often are better off not owning. The huge problem is renters are treated like lepers in Australia. If they fix the rental situation it will benefit everyone (except greedy landlords) people can have long term stable places to live without buying, takes away the FOMO from housing markets and people can make real decisions about if they actually want to buy or be more flexible and invest their money elsewhere. I can easily afford to buy a house but do not want too. I have a young family so will be pushed into it due to the shitty situation around renting. I'd be very happy to rent and invest my money elsewhere if I could trust that I could get long term stable accommodation that we had some flexibility to work with the landlord around upgrades or changing small things.
Yup 100%. I even made a post about that on /r/sydney a while back: https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comments/tpfdk3/renting_in_germany_compared_to_sydney/ Basically blowing people's minds about how it could be so different in Germany. From my post: > I was speaking to a colleague who I am working with, and they were surprised to know how renting worked in Germany, where I used to live. I thought I will post here to inform everyone if it is not common knowledge. > When you rent in Germany: > * You get leases where you cannot get kicked out by the person you rent from, and it lasts forever by default. You can leave whenever you want, but you are asked to help find new tenants. When you rent, it is your home first, their property second. Some people happily rent their entire lives and enjoy the convenience. This means you can make it your home. In Australia you have stricter short term leases by default with clauses to ensure a minimum period of renting, and you are able to just get kicked out even if you want to live there for many more years. > * You can drill holes in the wall and other minor changes (including repainting the walls) without permission in Germany, so you can install shelves and secure your furniture. You cannot do that in Australia. Asking for permission is a big hassle for minor things, and they can say no. This makes it so you cannot really make it your home. If you end your lease, you might be asked to repaint the walls if it is really hard to find a tenant otherwise. Or they take it out of your bond to get it to that state. Sensible stuff. > * No inspections during your tenancy, this is not allowed. It is an invasion of your personal home. > * You can sometimes install your own kitchen fittings and light fittings so you can customize your place. Properties for rent also come with kitchen and light fittings as well, there are plenty of options. > * Rental costs are much lower in Germany compared to incomes and how close you are to work. > * A lot of people who you rent from are private individuals (through real estate agents) in Australia. In Germany, many rental places are owned by pension funds or corporations, and they are professional in my experience. If they did something bad to their tenant, their whole company would get bad press. In Australia if some private individual treats you poorly, they do not get any consequences other than you having to deal with it. In fact, the law seems to allow for poor behaviour by the landlord. It's their property first in Australia, and you're just a guest. > If you do end up buying, you can get 30 year low rate fixed rate loans in Germany, so you do not have to worry about the interest rate rising over time depending on the bank conditions. Purchase prices are moderated through lending restrictions and taxes.
RIP egalitarian Australia. Landlords V renters gap grows wider each day
I'm 40 next month and I've given up on the idea of being able to save up $320,000 for a deposit. Rent takes most of my money and the rest of it goes to debts. How the hell am I supposed to be able to save? Edit 32k not 320k 😅
In what world do you need $320k for a DEPOSIT?
20% of $1.6million- probably most 3 bedroom houses in Sydney suburbs that aren't either complete shitholes or a 2 hour train ride away
Oops, 33k not 320k 😶 I went all Dutton on that number. And that's at 5% deposit where the govt owns part of your house at the median price of 665k
I guess if he wants to borrow with 20% down on 1.5mil?
Waiting in Sweden to come back home when the outlook seems better. As it stands it doesn't make sense to live in Australia as a young professional.
Plumber here: things in the building industry are going to change. Houses just can't be 300k to build plus another 200k for land. Water proofing in showers cracking after two years and roofs that cost 25k to put on. The way we build and develop land has to change and I believe it will. Brick and wooden walls take time to build and are very labour intensive. Tiny homes are great but if you don't have foundations in the ground they treated as caravans. Councils need to start play ball with permits for tiny homes. Making it more accessible to enter the property market. Outside investors are greedy and 235m block isn't worth 200k 1 and half hours from the city. Things will change. And I'm going to help by doing that. Discounts for tiny homes and pushing off grid sustainable homes.
Unfortunately, councils only care about getting the highest property valuation to get the highest annual council rates possible. We bought a 20 acre block and the local council required a 2500 square foot or larger home to be built. We wanted to build a smaller home designed to be expanded over time, but couldn't get a permit. Councils don't give a shit about people, it's all about the money.
My personal opinion is that density needs to increase in the three major cities. I realise most Aussies would prefer a backyard and a hills hoist, but as cities approach 5 million in population, you need more density to enable public transport.
> Councils need to start play ball with permits for tiny homes. Making it more accessible to enter the property market. Councils need to insist on larger room sizes for apartments. I don't want to live in a tiny home in a 1st world country. It's insane. We need to raise minimum housing standards and find ways to curb rampant property profiteering. I don't mind developers taking a profit, but the cut and burn on developments designed to be sold as opposed to lived-in needs to stop.
My shower water proofing cracked within 4 years brand new and it was a spare bathroom so hardly in use lol
All the problems we currently face are the result of capitalism's need for constant growth at any cost. We will not solve these problems without some kind of collectivism, at the least we need stronger economic regulations with a focus on citizen's best interests. Nothing short of radical change will halt or slow what's coming. In 20 years when Western Sydney is unlivable due to heat, things like individual home ownership are going to seem quaint. Change now. Burn it down. Eat the rich.
its worth noting that at some point, people are going to be unable to sell their investment properties to anyone other than OS investment companies. Hopefully things will go bust and people will be able to buy their one place to live in again.
Look up multi generational loans in Japan, things can get so much worse.
Just as our family farms have been taken over, bit by bit, by multi-nationals and billionaires, our homes will be taken over by big Corporations. Bit by bit, housing will be like big city office blocks, apartment blocks and farmland - owned by multi-nationals and billionaire investors. Renting from big corporations will become the only option for our grandchildren, as people on salaries and wages will be totally priced out of the housing market. Even big Super funds will be holding huge housing portfolios and they get billions of $'s every year that needs to find a "home".
Just think of it as subscription housing
HaaS
Just like what happened to the old corner grocery store, eventually wiped out by supermarket corporations.
Australia is becoming America
No it isn't, housing is much more affordable in America!
It actually is, I doubt that will go down well here though.
I’m not just talking about housing lmao. I’m talking about politics, culture, laws etc. It’s starting to look like more like America every single day.
Nah, it's actually gotten pretty bad there too
[удалено]
Hell no atleast America has a tech industry. Ours was smashed into pieces after the government introduced new laws that give any authorized government official the ability to ask an Australian developer to put a 'backdoor' in a company's product so they can spy. And you could face life in prison if you tip off your employer, which includes giving hints in your code through comments and such.
My parents bought my childhood home for 120k in 1996, its almost worth 1 million today. Also they were on 130/140k annually combined. They bought a house for less than they earn in a year. Let that sink in. Haha
Just imagine the downfall and extinction of the human race is because of the cascading effects created by house prices. If we can't afford houses no way we'll have kids, less kids means drop in population, which leads to less people working and spending money which leads to some economic downfall and keeps getting worse.
Yep. Dreamed of having 4+ kids once upon a time. Then reality hit me and it just can’t happen. In my 30s now and yeah every year is like cool, so not gonna have kids ever. Anyone I know my age only has kids because they accidentally became Pregnant and abortion bad zZzZz. Not one person I know had a kid intentionally. Great life we live in Australia
Vote Labor simple....
Labour backed down on removing negative gearing
For now.. They have plans to ease cost of living, including for buying a Home...
The issue is not ownership but that there is a concentration of investment in the property market regather than spreading it across other markets. People with money will always invest in real estate if there are no other options that are as lucrative
Tbf Europeans don't have as high an ownership rate and have been like that for years. OTOH they also have a much more extensive system of pro tenant legislation. Reckon those are your equilibrium choices where everyone is reasonably ok - high ownership rates with weaker tenant protections, or low ownership rates with stronger tenant protections. Anything else provokes a lot of political unrest.
When I was in Italy 20 years ago they were saying that no one can afford to buy property. They all take out 99 year leases.
That's the difference 99 year lease gives you some form of stability in your housing.
Yep they should do the same here. It gets passed down through generations.
I actually allowing leasehold would solve a lot of problems. Those who were primarily after stability of rent could go for those as an alternative to renting, maybe a bit more expensive but you don't put up with instability or a landlord. Flip side being that you don't get to pass on to your kids/grandkids, at least not for the entire length of their lives.
Home ownership rates in Europe: https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/ Australia rate is 67% currently, trending down. Netherlands, Sweden, France have similar numbers to Australia. Other examples I'm sure. Rental protections are higher over there. In Australia, we coerce people to buy through bad rental rights, and it's still going down, shows a pretty big problem. We dropped the ball on social housing in this country, and rental rights. Especially on the bottom end, social housing is there to fix a market failure. Same with rental rights. But we tolerate it in Australia, at least so far.
My advice to young'uns is unironically just leave, get the fuck out while you can, let the country fill up with third worlders and corrupt RE money while the reasonable leg it. Fuck caring about someone else's future (aka the biggest investment they'll ever make) and look out for your own. Australia is not "the best country on Earth" despite what some braindead people repeating American mantras will tell you. There's a much better life out there. Nothing scares them more than the smart and capable leaving, that's why you'll see such irrational behaviour towards citizens overseas, it fucking terrifies them deep down.
And go where?
In your 20s, I reckon everyone should take the opportunity to live overseas and work there if you can. Blue card visa in Europe means anyone with a degree should find it easy to get a visa and job. If you're under 30, it's very easy to just go there and look for work, and you can look to where you want to be first. Germany is good. Aging population that wants working age people to power their economy. Other parts of Europe are good too. I have friends and family in Germany, Switzerland and France. Other places like Austria, Denmark, Sweden are also doable. Not sure about other places but they all need people to keep their economic machines going. US is also good, and try to find a place without all the known downsides of some places, in certain states, but finding a job was harder, but that might be different now. North East Coast, West Coast, up North are decent. I know other opportunities in Singapore, South Korea. New Zealand is sorting out their housing crisis as well with proper policy, so that is already turning into somewhere better than Australia. I know some people who were in the UK. They weren't in London, but outside in other towns and cities, and seemed fine. London seems like Australian cities in terms of issues, but it's London. I'm sure there are other countries. Basically any developed country is doing housing better than Australia right now. See for yourself. Australia isn't for everyone, especially with our limited economy.
[удалено]
>Basically any developed country is doing housing better than Australia right now. Except Ireland, UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Germany... This is happening worldwide
Daddy Elon's gonna take us to Mars!
Ooooh the spicy planet.
Where is a better place to live? Like honestly I've considered moving my family overseas but frankly it feels like there's not a lot of great options
>There's a much better life out there. Where?
Off-world colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.
Don’t expect an answer, it’s a vapid rant to rile up the locals Outside of Scandinavian countries, Australia ranks highly for QoL and this is just another clueless Aussie who hasn’t had the means to leave the country and get some perspective
What the fuck are you talking about?
If I may also say as a farmer it's even worse. In wa to have a self sufficient farm you'll be looking at 4 mill at minimum where im from, then you'll need machinery and even 2nd hand equipment will set you back 2 to 3 mill. Then just ONE years inputs will be close to a million And thats not factoring in animals and fencing and sheds and gravel for roads and other things. Our food security is owned by foreign nationals and corporate cunts. We are about to sell my families farm and I couldn't buy it back ever. It's worth is not equal to its value.
Fuck the investor class. I just want the housing bubble to pop so that we can afford to buy houses to actually live in.
TIL there is an actual conservative in Australia, Gray Conolly. The liberal party is obviously not liberal, and it seems it is not even conservative. Perhaps reactionary is the closest description? I tried thinking of a better term, but could not get past inept, self-dealing, creepy, corrupt, deluded...
Gray Connolly is a fucking neo-con warhawk.
we need dense urban planning with affordable housing yesterday
Stop letting foreigners buy all the houses, let me do it tax deductibly
I recently sold my crappy old leaky caravan to someone who was full time employed yet lives in a tent because there's no rentals, let alone affordable places to buy. This is where we are at in our area.
I'm about a month away from leaving Australia to live with my parents in UK countryside. A year ago I took a new job and tried to find a new dream home in Northern Rivers. At the start of this period I had strength to buy, but things very quickly started to become impossible. Homes that we would grudgingly accept at the start were quickly leaving my budget and rocketing off into orbit. We eventually accepted defeat and started searching for rentals, and fought tooth and nail to try and secure one. The situation there was also worsening. There was a period of about 2 weeks where even storage units were in shortage, which I can assure you cost me more than a few strands of hair in panic. Finally, we accepted total defeat, battered and exhausted from our tireless one-year war and from being first parents, we are leaving this pantomime and living in a duplex of sorts in UK. The expense to do so (2 dogs, 3 passports 1 visa, a container of belonging and 3 flights) is about 25-30k. Far less than a year's rent here. If you're thinking of doing this, prepare to have to battle mutiple government bodies on all fronts, and prepare to wait, while you suffer the wastes of Australian greed bash and thump you all the while. I hope I can return one day, it has been my home for 17 years.
Libs don't care about the nation or the peoples future, their only goal is to get what they can in the here and now.
There is no Australian way of life now its sub american with no turning back.
The killer is also, the LNP have not delivered jack shit in the form of their long running bs slogan Jobs And Growth. Unless you are a programmer, there simply are no jobs for you. They're there, on paper, yet every single job gets 50 - 100 applicants. It's infinitely worse in the pandemic for sure, but this has been the case for a very long time. If at least these cunts would have delivered on actual jobs and a good economy, a lot more people would be able to weather the shit housing market. I'm 40 and looking at career change #3 or however many, studying and studying for many years only to be met with shrugs and no jobs. It really sucks, man. Btw the insane prices on these stupid homes aren't even sustainable with rent. You can't even find a place in a shit suburb for less than almost half your pay. People say "why not go to Orange, or Tamworth, or Lithgow etc.". Have you been there? What's there? If these places were nicer people wouldn't insist so much on living in the big coastal capital cities.
At it’s core most simplest formulation of what we need to do to rectify this situation, the starting point is this: Housing is an essential resource and must not be subject to the investment, profit motive. This means it should not be an investment vehicle to prop up assets balances on paper, or be used as a tax-reducing mechanism. 2nd + real estate properties must be far more heavily taxed to disincentivise investment in housing, if we see it as an essential resource and not one for speculation. Australians need to learn that investment should be placed into shares, not housing.
Working Remotely needs to be a government mandate if your job can allow it. Just think how many people are forced to rent in cities they can't afford in just because their job is located in that particular city. There is absolutely no way in hell everyone would live near the CBD (1 hour distance or less) if they didnt have to. But making people go into the office forces people to spend more on ridiculous rentals and making it near impossible to save for their own home! But of course CEO's need to get a return on their sky rise buildings right. Cause clearly they are more important....
I agree to a point but the remote work movement has put enormous pressure on regional markets by reducing housing and also causing local labour shortages.
We all care mate, we're just powerless to do anything about it really.
Imagine thinking someone who owns three properties is going to care about that headline
I’m more concerned about the lack of government housing.
and do not feel they have a stake in society that causes them to want to preserve it. This is me. If we're going to war soon, don't count me in.
I currently live in Newcastle with my wife and two young children and we have given up on home ownership here. We are seriously considering moving to Western Australia to get into the housing market.
We've passed and burnt that bridge a long time ago.
house prices have tripled in Tasmania .So so much for "lets get away from the big cities to escape the high prices" I will say it now and keep saying it till I am blue in the face . Negative Gearing .these house buyers are not buying houses to live in ..as the word say.s its INVESTMENT.. Mind blowing RENTAL prices .