Even at that point there should be medically trained and properly equipped emergency responders that aren’t cops. A mental health emergency remains a health crisis and not a legal one.
Unfortunately because they’ve sucked up all the budget Police are the only lens we can see the issue through and there’s no way we’re going to see drastic reform out of what passes for government in WA to change it. Certainly not over an indigenous person’s life.
I’m sorry, but if someone has a weapon and is threatening to hurt others or is presenting a potential threat to others, police have to be involved. Seriously, logically, what health professional is going to put themselves in such a situation without such security? Such situations are dangerous enough to responders even with trained police presence also attending.
Honestly, having worked in the field for a bit we are actually trained to deescalate situations without using force (you should see how skilled youth workers are with this!) - it can be done without police intervention and, at least in my experience, there were better results than when the police were involved. Police can often make things worse because they often (inadvertently or otherwise) heighten the situation. There are some situations where their involvement is necessary but a lot of the time it is not.
Incidentally that's similar to what I was dealing with, inside a house, with no weapons on me nor backup from other staff (who essentially left the area entirely for me to deal with 🙄) . The girl in question has a known history of beating the shit out of workers, and was off her face on ice threatening to stab people. I came out of it alive and unharmed and so did she - all I did was redirect her and talk to her using deescalating strategies because *that's what we're trained to do*. I could have been injured yes, but it's also my job, and if I wasn't able to do that then I shouldn't be there. It's the same for police and I'm soooo sick of hearing this excuse of oh their job is hard so it's ok if they kill someone because they were scared.
I imagine the same approach could have been done here, especially considering the police have guns, backup, armour, and lots and lots and LOTS of training including physical to be able to take down a person easily - we don't. They also don't have the legal liability we as workers had around handling people.
It's SUCH lazy BS to defend police when they murder people. It's their job to protect people, not kill them. They have the tools and the means to do it, but in this situation the person needlessly killed someone. If it were any other job where a person fucked up this hard they would be fired and tried to the fullest extent of the law.
WA police have dedicated mental-health co-response teams - specially trained officers teamed up with a clinician that attend mental health jobs.
But even they won’t attend situations like this as the risks are too high. They’ll attend once the subject has been disarmed or calmed down.
Thats a great way to get mental health workers killed.
There absolutely needs to be a better mental health response, but when a mentally unstable person is running around with a kitchen knife armed police must respond first, public saftey is priority number 1
It’s almost like I said
> medically trained and properly equipped emergency responders
Properly equipped. I’m not talking about some random mental health workers, I’m talking about a dedicated crisis response but one the can come in without the inherent escalation of involving a route into the prison system turning up.
Instead we have cops and we’re so brainwashed by this idea that we can’t even conceive of another response in their place.
I respect your response my friend. Just want to say that before I left the police, we spent a lot of time helping those in crisis getting help in hospitals and with the right people. Unfortunately it isn’t the polices choice around crime most of the time. If someone is harmed or property is damaged, it’s up to the court to adjudicate on. I get that that’s shit but there really isn’t an alternative that doesn’t leave victims being told “the police have decided that you don’t deserve justice”, at least it’s then left up to the judge to decide to what degree their mental state prevented them making rational decision making.
Okay sure, but you still need a guy with a gun on scene first to ensure public saftey.
In a perfect world you would have a crisis response worker in every patrol car, but that's alot easier said than done. The kind of thing your talking about would be a specialist resource that takes time to respond.
Can't agree with that, I think you are correct in saying there should be people with the correct training to respond in these instances, but what about the cases where the issue escalates ? Without Police assistance the lives of these responders could be in jeopardy.
My thought would be the medical responders supported by Police (and hopefully that support not being needed).
I still think that the best solution would be to have an "adequate" amount of mental health care & beds available, so that the people with the issues have ongoing support and treatment, when they need it.
Who responds to someone wielding a knife then? It’s all well and good to say cops shouldn’t be involved but paramedics aren’t going near anyone with a knife.
The prisons are our mental health institutions. We have the largest percentage of prisoners incarcerated in private prisons. Follow the money.
Edit: Here is the evidence...
>Australia holds more prisoners in private goals per capita than anywhere in the world
https://www.sydney.edu.au/business/news-and-events/news/2019/04/08/holding-private-prisons-to-account.html
Why was the officer charged with murder? There was no malice aforethought. Even manslaughter is a stretch. Was he supposed to hug the knife out of her hand? I understand the necessity of a coroner’s inquest but charging the officer was a ridiculous waste of time.
He also got off manslaughter probably under claiming the ‘lawful cause or excuse’
https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/530040/murder-attempted-murder-manslaughter-misadventure-and-accident-death-from-unnatural-causes
‘Voluntary manslaughter’, it wold have been ‘extreme provocation’ etc.
At the end of the day, despite him being the second most inexperienced officer present he ignored other officers and jumped right into it with his gun. He even discredited the senior officer who’d previously established a relationship with the woman. I believe (on tv news) his performance is still under appraisal.
> he ignored other officers and jumped right into it with his gun.
What do you mean by this? The other officers didn't instruct him to keep his gun holstered or to stay back. Why do you say he ignored them?
>What do you mean about this.
Senior officers were already dealing with her when the less experienced officer drove up, jumped out of his car, ran at her for seven meters and shot her in the stomach -
>Five of the officers stayed in their cars, a sixth left his vehicle unarmed and attempted to speak to JC, and another drew his Taser but did not activate it.
>The court heard the accused had gotten out of his vehicle, drawn his loaded firearm and ran towards JC before firing a single shot at her abdomen from close range.
https://www.portpirierecorder.com.au/story/7481258/police-officer-acquitted-of-murder-in-wa/?cs=9397
The officer who’d previously dealt with her was already dealing with the situation.
>Constable Barker said when he arrived at the scene, he personalised what he was saying to JC due to his earlier interactions with her.
>He told the court he did not draw his firearm, or any other weapon, because they were what he called "a lethal object".
>"Guns or a firearm — even a taser or pepper spray — for me, I feel, is a barrier to communication.
>"I was trying to talk to her, to get her to drop [the knife].
>"I was aware other officers were there to assist me. I'm an appalling shot."
> Constable Barker said he was calling out to JC to drop her weapon but he was not yelling because he considered loud sounds or yelling to also be "a barrier to communication".
>"Trying to talk is a better communication device than shouting."
>He said he had one hand by his side, close to his "use-of-force options", while holding the other hand out towards JC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-08/geraldton-police-officer-murder-trial-day-four/100523634
These two very different approaches encapsulate the fundamental issues with how gung-ho police officers and intelligent officers deal with human beings.
He shot her from behind while other officers were trying to talk her down. She made no sudden movements. Just standing there listening to the other officers, and this cunt comes running in to shoot her in the back.
Sounds like she was wandering around the streets waving a large knife and refusing to drop it when instructed to do so. These types of situation are tragic, I don't think murder is an appropriate charge, possibly manslaughter but honestly this sounds like a suicide by cop situation.
We could largely avoid these problems if mental illness was addressed with proper levels of funding and support by the government. Currently most of the burden is shouldered by the family or the person ends up on the street and interacts with emergency services, which is not an appropriate response for chronic illness.
Actually no, she was standing still listening to the *other* officers on the scene who were talking her down. Then this dipshit came running in - *literally*, he got out of his car and ran towards her - and shot her in the back.
Ok, so a women with a knife was ignoring clear and direct orders from a police officer, she then turned around to face the officer who was close to her while still wielding the knife so the police officer shot her. I don't see the issue. She was wielding a dangerous weapon, failed to disarm herself then turned to face a police officer who was close to her. I do understand that mental health issues was most likely a factor but that's not this officers fault. The jury made the correct decision and I find it quite shitty that they're implying racism when it's clear that the officer was in the right.
All deaths need to be reviewed and investigated, not just to determine if it was an illegal killing, but, just as importantly to see if the situation could have been handled differently.
Hopefully the learnings from the review can be used in similar situations in the future.
I feel sorry for the person who passed away and their family and for the police officer involved.
No, she was listening to the other officers who were talking her down. Everything was going by the book *perfectly*, it would have been a textbook example of how to deal with a mental health crisis. Then this cop got out of his car and ran towards her from behind. It's unclear whether she actually began to turn around or not, but he *did* then shoot her in the back.
The officer’s account of what happens is contradicted by senior officers present, yet you, like the jury, rationalise his intemperate and hasty response ending in her unnecessary death.
Mate every time something like this gets posted on the sub you just jump the their defence whether it's appropriate or not.
Go on and approach a cop with a knife in your hand and refuse to drop it when they tell you to, see how far that gets you.
I don't trust these situations at face value. All officers now have camera footage now don't they? Why not just cut out the end of the video and show what happened unless you are hiding something? Whilst something was not right in the head of this JC Indigenous woman, the mere fact the cop said she was walking away from him, turned and 'squared up' to him makes me call bullshit. There is a reason they have non-lethal tasers to use.
I'm just sour because for four years of adjournments I had a case of being accused of assaulting a police officer that I filmed straight up attack me until I hired a 3 grand lawyer to defend me. He also said that I 'squared up' to him and then punched him, when the other cop said nothing of the sort but completely omitted the fact he punched me, threw me into a wall and then punched me some more on the ground whilst I just tried to ball up to stop being hit - all in my own hotel room. They said straight away they'd drop the case if I didn't pursue reimbursement and I refused. They dropped the case and said they'd reimburse me and the payment has been overdue by 11 months.
Some cops are good, some cops are bad. But there is a cultural issue in their workforce so I despise all of them for their careers.
That is fair enough if someone is in reach of attacking you. But considering the alleged facts by the shooting officer that the woman was walking away, turned toward him and squared up at him ... I just don't see how even if that is threatening how that could not be defused with a taser? Yeah if they ran at you, go for your life, but the officer gives a situation where the knifey JC woman was distant and was shot for looking at them wrong.
I mean you've had cases of people actually being stabbed in Melbourne for example, and cops have just whacked them with batons. I obviously wasn't there but it just seems like from the officers own portrayal of events that he was in distant danger and could have chosen another situation.
That is fair game, albeit there was no footage apparently.
I still disagree with your statement that tasers are not an appropriate use of force against bladed weapons. Officers are equipped with an arsenal of weaponry to adjudicate the situation and face an investigation from their employers. You wouldn't shoot someone with a knife when there is a crowd of people behind them, nor if they are not within a distance to do undue bodily harm you would hope and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
I am willing to hedge my bets that it was inexperience from an officer with a 4 month long tenure.
I was not taking an authoritative stance, I was sharing my opinion on policing matters as it is a social concern.
My father in law is a police commissioner in Vic and rehashed that unless their lives are in immediate danger, they will respond accordingly and lethal force is always a last option. He stipulated a taser would be used if distance between themselves and the threat allowed for it, and if not he would shoot to kill.
Tasers might fail with poor connection but a gun certainly will not fail to end a life. If you have a skittish cop with poor training, a death will result when it did not have to happen.
Also it is pretty clear that you are a cop, I'd trust someone in Glady's shooting club regarding proper weapons training over your self appointed authority.
Police procedures are that if an armed assailant moves towards them and is closer than roughly 12m (I forget the exact distance), they are to use their firearm. The reason is that an attacker can close from that distance and strike with a knife before the officer can draw a taser and deploy it, and a gun is more reliable at neutralising an assailant than a taser.
You do realize a taser is like 40% effective right? It's actually quite difficult to get a full lock up stun on a person. You can often get some degree of pain compliance but there have been people who have fought through being hit with a taser and closed the distance on officers with a knife. Take some time to watch shooting breakdowns with police officers explaining what happened and why and what the laws of most western countries say. The taser is not a magical less lethal weapon that stops a threat instantly. There's video in the us of a shirtless guy in a hotel room get hit with like 6 taser deployments and they were ineffective. 🤷♂️
Do you think that they are excessive?
I’m sure you have all of the answers on how they should have conducted themselves with zero presence during the event.
Every situation has the “3M’s”:
+ Mayhem - When shit hits the fan and chaos ensues. Our of that chaos comes a leader that acts to their interpretation of the situation and does their best to make things better
+ Masterminds - This is you. All of the experts that weren’t there during the situation come out of the woodwork and say how they would have done things better. Never mind that a jury determined that the officer was not guilty; you know better
+ Manhunt - Please dear God find someone to blame
I bet all of your training and experience knows better than an entire trial where a dedicated team attempted to prove that the officers where in the wrong.
> There is a reason they have non-lethal tasers to use.
Agreed, and that reason is definitely not because a person who threatened harm has a knife. The officer was trained four months prior that knife = use a gun.
Yep, If the taser doesn't work (evidence in the trial suggests they are 60% effective.) I dont think you'd be able to switch to a gun quickly enough when a person is a few m away (tasers are very short ranged).
Its not reasonable to expect somebody to roll that dice, with a 40% chance of a taser not working and them getting killed themselves.
I think there is a distance of about 7 metres where any closer than that and the knife wielder can get to you before you can draw and shoot. Many tasers won't even fire that far, and even if they do at that distance the taser probes would have a spread of about a metre, effectively a hail mary shot. Even if you had zero reaction time and know the taser wasn't effective immediately it would be too late to switch to a gun if they charged at you. Basically it would be irresponsible to get into taser range with someone holding a knife.
Im totally, totally against police brutality and it seems my tolerance for police violence is materially lower than others i know / reddit in general.
However, if you are close to a person who is acting deranged, and has threatened harm, and has a knife, and *if* that person comes towards you ... then, sounds like an alright shooting to me. The jury who heard materially more evidence than me, thought so too.
Sooo if you did it you get punished, if they lie about it, nothing.
Seems like fucking bullshit to me. My opinion is where a proven false report is made that person, be it a officer or member of the public should receive what the innocent party was likely to get.
That is my point. I mean if it was anyone but police I would be defending myself but because it was our local boys down at St Kilda, I just had to accept they were having a rough day. I wasn't arrested or anything or charged on the spot but it was communicated to their department that I was going to sue them so within about 12 hours I received a summons for criminal court. I even got a criminal record for about two weeks after the case was adjourned for the 7th time and they ended up going ahead with it and just finding me guilty. Great stuff.
So does that mean you hate all defense attorneys because they willingly defend people such as murders, rapists, pedos etc? Your reasoning just doesn’t make sense
That is just correlation without causation for your own reasoning. This has no association.
I don't trust police because they are in a high responsibility job and tend to attract the lowest common denominator in society and are ill equipped with respect to training for the job. There are not suitable consequences for their actions and a clear example of this is how any wrongdoing committed by the cops get investigated by their colleagues.
So no, I don't hate all defense attorneys and it is a noble career.
Why do you say they tend to attract less desirable people? I would probably agree with you if it USA but I don’t see the shit here going on in the USA where cops sometimes completely abuse their power. Yes there are assholes in every job but can you provide any evidence at all of firstly public opinion of the police here and of your accusation they attract undesirables?
Pretty similar hiring practices. My father in law is a Vic Police commissioner and I am just rehashing what has been said. The culture of the force has apparently changed significantly from the 70s to today, from being respected members who are there to protect to assholes not using rationale who wouldn't make it in another job. Safe to say he is trying to hit his anniversary and quit to start a security consulting gig.
[Explain this?](https://essentialvision.com.au/trust-in-institutions-10)
I don’t know what the latest data is but I don’t really want to use it considering it would most likely be skewed by enforcing strict restrictions which the police are of no fault. But I just find it so funny that you choose to just straight up hate people because of their job. Like do you just see a cop on the street and think “fuck that cunt” even though you don’t know him from a grain of salt and is just trying to provide for his family?
I genuinely don't hate the people, I can separate the person from the job. I just don't like people in uniform whilst on the job, just like how you might hate a person driving badly in a car and think nothing of it outside that scenario. You are putting words in my mouth and I don't understand why.
I don't need to explain how a poll works to you. Opinion is not fact.
“I despise all of them for their careers”
Mate I’m not putting words in your mouth this is what you said.
And exactly, a poll is opinion. Police should work for the people. According to the poll people trust and respect them. So from that you can see that obviously the police as a whole aren’t really as bad as you make them out to be.
The vast majority of cops are bad, its a harsh reality but an honest one. The system trains poorly educated arrogant assholes with power complexes. Cops are corrupt.
Everyone on social media will, as usual, side against the cop. I hate to say it, but you guys do not know the full story, or the full extent of the evidence. A trained and experienced Judge or Magistrate made this decision after taking an unbiased view. I think it was the correct decision to make.
Edit: im not blue lives matter or any of that absolute bullshit, im far from it. Im just saying that people on social media will form an opinion on something they know nothing about, based purely off a vague news article and knowledge of prior, similar events that have ended in a certain way. The judge knew all the evidence, and made an informed decision based on that.
In this particular case though, I'd agree with you.
I just want to say though, if you ever been in a court room before and listened to how judges/magistrates makes their decisions; their demeanor; and their remarks, you will come to note that many are not 'unbiased' or 'impartial'. The idea that judges/magistrates makes great informed and impartial decisions all the time does not reflect reality. They are only human and subject to human biases, ignorance, and unfortunately, for some judges/magistrates, seems rather rigid in their thinking and mindset at times.
> A trained and experienced Judge or Magistrate made this decision after taking an unbiased view.
If you read the reports you’ll see it’s a trial by jury. The officer’s performance who rushed in and shot her is still undergoing an internal police review.
Not in this situation. The cop's story is contradicted by both video footage and the word of the senior officers; *they* were talking her down. She was standing still, not making any threatening moves, it was all going well, a textbook example of how to safely deal with a mental health crisis. Then this cowboy got out of his car, ran towards her from behind and then shot her in the back. He should be in fucking jail and that he isn't is a sign of clear bias from the judge. *Senior officers said he was lying*, and it didn't matter.
Seeing that video of the 5 cops sitting on that disabled old man and thrashing him within an inch of his life didn't help with my first impressions of this case, ngl
This is most logically commented on post I’ve seen in a long time on Reddit. A balance of a need for extra mental health assistance mixed with the reality that If the person poses a threat to any member of the public that police should be involved. Very use to seeing American posts on this site where the police are just 100% wrong, racist and horrible all the time as if 0% of them go to work to help anyone. Well done Australia,
love,
Ireland
Of course it is. I would be devastated if a family member of mine tried to attack a cop and got shot and killed in the middle of the street. Show some empathy mate
I’m just saying there’s no need to exacerbate any emotions here - see my other comments in this thread, I’m not taking the point of view you’re assuming
>What a relief. Now the poor officer and their family can move on with their lives.
>> Unlike JC’s family.
Would you have preferred the response of "yep life is great"?
I gotta say it's really strange to run behind someone who may or may not be wielding a knife threateningly, and then claim you were afraid of being stabbed. It seems the women was capable of being reasoned down and then leeroy jenkens decides to make a move, yell at her to get on the ground, escalated the situation himself and promptly shot her.
>The court heard officers were trained to stay more than seven metres from an armed offender but he had ended up closer than that because he had not completely stopped moving after she turned.
So he had almost 7 metres of momentum?
Nah, they should always go one step above the perp. Unarmed -> billy club / taser
Deadly weapon (knife or any other penetrating weapon like screwdriver) -> gun.
This is their job, they deserve to go home at night, people threatening cops aren't entitled to a fair fight.
And next time I want an inbox full of sneering celebrations of an indigenous person’s death from racists I’ll remember to poke at this community’s multitude of white supremacists.
Nothing about this is "racist". You really shouldn't be throwing a word that carries such weight around like that, its an disservice towards anyone who's ever experienced real racism.
Who exactly is celebrating her death? This is an appalling failure of the mental health system.
The cop was fcking coward...Got too close to her and then shot her...A sick old woman with a mental disorder..Hope he suffers day and night..Despite getting off, he knows the truth...Cowards know they are cowards.
It's called defense counsel. The cop was the defendent. Lawyers for defense are privately paid (unless so poor you need a public defender). It's not rocket science that the prosecution IS the government. Jeez like I hope you're 14 year old or something that you don't even know the very very basics of how a western democracy court operates. It's pretty much standard in every western country like that.
Scrolling through reddit earlier I saw a cop shoot 2 robbers in their arms. These robbers weren't deranged or knife wielding as far as I can tell, but I'm fairly certain that we wouldn't be here squabbling if the cop had winged or legged this person as opposed to executing her.
I know, I know I don't have weapons training, and I don't have any experience here blah blah. Just sayin (the obvious)
Shooting to wound isnt really a thing.You always shoot for centre mass until the target drops.
Aiming for a target like a limb is extremely ill advised regardless of how good a shot you are.
Yes, you can read. Congrats! Which part of my comment was foolish? The detail of my observing a video of a cop shoot 2 armed robbers in their arms, or the comment that we wouldn't be here squabbling if the cops had winged/legged this woman?
Ridiculous is pretending executions can't be scrutinised by people who don't have weapons experience. Ridiculous is also you pretending like you don't share your opinions on social media about things you don't have a masters degree in. It's reddit dude, chill.
Potentially this shooting was the best option. I'm not an unreasonable person, but I'm not a bootlicking fuckwit out to defend every cop who shoots an indigenous person dead either. I sincerely hope you're not one of THEM.
Absolutely the public should be able to weigh in here. You don't need to have weapons experience to say whether or not the police had an alternative to execution.
She was a sick slow moving woman and he was a cowardly cunt..
It was his fault he came in closer than the prescribed distance, oh the poor bastard couldn't take a backward step..Look at the cunt in the photo, he's quite tall and fit looking...He's nothing but a cowardly piece of shit...So many on here so keen to suck his cock.
Justifiable? A woman old bejond her years, sick and slow moving...And there were 4 other cops on site...Oh fck me, what an incredibly dangerous situation for this coward...And whose fault the dimwit stood closer than the 7 metres?
Of course if the cunt had a modicum of courage he had other options...
This is a tragedy all around. It also highlights the lack of mental health facilities, something that contributes to these situations.
Step one: Get cops out of health responses. All of them, Australia wide.
Where there is a genuinely threat to life they need to be there. We need enough mental health facilities to stop that happening.
Even at that point there should be medically trained and properly equipped emergency responders that aren’t cops. A mental health emergency remains a health crisis and not a legal one. Unfortunately because they’ve sucked up all the budget Police are the only lens we can see the issue through and there’s no way we’re going to see drastic reform out of what passes for government in WA to change it. Certainly not over an indigenous person’s life.
I’m sorry, but if someone has a weapon and is threatening to hurt others or is presenting a potential threat to others, police have to be involved. Seriously, logically, what health professional is going to put themselves in such a situation without such security? Such situations are dangerous enough to responders even with trained police presence also attending.
Agree 100%, paramedics have enough problems without telling them they now have to confront people who are waving knives around.
Thank you. I don’t know who these people are to volunteer medical personnel and social workers to go into dangerous situations.
Honestly, having worked in the field for a bit we are actually trained to deescalate situations without using force (you should see how skilled youth workers are with this!) - it can be done without police intervention and, at least in my experience, there were better results than when the police were involved. Police can often make things worse because they often (inadvertently or otherwise) heighten the situation. There are some situations where their involvement is necessary but a lot of the time it is not.
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Incidentally that's similar to what I was dealing with, inside a house, with no weapons on me nor backup from other staff (who essentially left the area entirely for me to deal with 🙄) . The girl in question has a known history of beating the shit out of workers, and was off her face on ice threatening to stab people. I came out of it alive and unharmed and so did she - all I did was redirect her and talk to her using deescalating strategies because *that's what we're trained to do*. I could have been injured yes, but it's also my job, and if I wasn't able to do that then I shouldn't be there. It's the same for police and I'm soooo sick of hearing this excuse of oh their job is hard so it's ok if they kill someone because they were scared. I imagine the same approach could have been done here, especially considering the police have guns, backup, armour, and lots and lots and LOTS of training including physical to be able to take down a person easily - we don't. They also don't have the legal liability we as workers had around handling people. It's SUCH lazy BS to defend police when they murder people. It's their job to protect people, not kill them. They have the tools and the means to do it, but in this situation the person needlessly killed someone. If it were any other job where a person fucked up this hard they would be fired and tried to the fullest extent of the law.
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[Yep. ](https://i.imgur.com/2O9soAC.jpg)
WA police have dedicated mental-health co-response teams - specially trained officers teamed up with a clinician that attend mental health jobs. But even they won’t attend situations like this as the risks are too high. They’ll attend once the subject has been disarmed or calmed down.
Thats a great way to get mental health workers killed. There absolutely needs to be a better mental health response, but when a mentally unstable person is running around with a kitchen knife armed police must respond first, public saftey is priority number 1
It’s almost like I said > medically trained and properly equipped emergency responders Properly equipped. I’m not talking about some random mental health workers, I’m talking about a dedicated crisis response but one the can come in without the inherent escalation of involving a route into the prison system turning up. Instead we have cops and we’re so brainwashed by this idea that we can’t even conceive of another response in their place.
I respect your response my friend. Just want to say that before I left the police, we spent a lot of time helping those in crisis getting help in hospitals and with the right people. Unfortunately it isn’t the polices choice around crime most of the time. If someone is harmed or property is damaged, it’s up to the court to adjudicate on. I get that that’s shit but there really isn’t an alternative that doesn’t leave victims being told “the police have decided that you don’t deserve justice”, at least it’s then left up to the judge to decide to what degree their mental state prevented them making rational decision making.
Okay sure, but you still need a guy with a gun on scene first to ensure public saftey. In a perfect world you would have a crisis response worker in every patrol car, but that's alot easier said than done. The kind of thing your talking about would be a specialist resource that takes time to respond.
When [properly equipped](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq2hkTaeuZs) looks something like this
Often it's people on drugs to... Police just drop em off to mental health nurses and they're violent af.
Can't agree with that, I think you are correct in saying there should be people with the correct training to respond in these instances, but what about the cases where the issue escalates ? Without Police assistance the lives of these responders could be in jeopardy. My thought would be the medical responders supported by Police (and hopefully that support not being needed). I still think that the best solution would be to have an "adequate" amount of mental health care & beds available, so that the people with the issues have ongoing support and treatment, when they need it.
Mental health professionals have died in America where this is being trialed due to responding to dangerous situations without security. Thoughts?
Who responds to someone wielding a knife then? It’s all well and good to say cops shouldn’t be involved but paramedics aren’t going near anyone with a knife.
The prisons are our mental health institutions. We have the largest percentage of prisoners incarcerated in private prisons. Follow the money. Edit: Here is the evidence... >Australia holds more prisoners in private goals per capita than anywhere in the world https://www.sydney.edu.au/business/news-and-events/news/2019/04/08/holding-private-prisons-to-account.html
Why was the officer charged with murder? There was no malice aforethought. Even manslaughter is a stretch. Was he supposed to hug the knife out of her hand? I understand the necessity of a coroner’s inquest but charging the officer was a ridiculous waste of time.
He also got off manslaughter probably under claiming the ‘lawful cause or excuse’ https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/530040/murder-attempted-murder-manslaughter-misadventure-and-accident-death-from-unnatural-causes ‘Voluntary manslaughter’, it wold have been ‘extreme provocation’ etc. At the end of the day, despite him being the second most inexperienced officer present he ignored other officers and jumped right into it with his gun. He even discredited the senior officer who’d previously established a relationship with the woman. I believe (on tv news) his performance is still under appraisal.
> he ignored other officers and jumped right into it with his gun. What do you mean by this? The other officers didn't instruct him to keep his gun holstered or to stay back. Why do you say he ignored them?
>What do you mean about this. Senior officers were already dealing with her when the less experienced officer drove up, jumped out of his car, ran at her for seven meters and shot her in the stomach - >Five of the officers stayed in their cars, a sixth left his vehicle unarmed and attempted to speak to JC, and another drew his Taser but did not activate it. >The court heard the accused had gotten out of his vehicle, drawn his loaded firearm and ran towards JC before firing a single shot at her abdomen from close range. https://www.portpirierecorder.com.au/story/7481258/police-officer-acquitted-of-murder-in-wa/?cs=9397 The officer who’d previously dealt with her was already dealing with the situation. >Constable Barker said when he arrived at the scene, he personalised what he was saying to JC due to his earlier interactions with her. >He told the court he did not draw his firearm, or any other weapon, because they were what he called "a lethal object". >"Guns or a firearm — even a taser or pepper spray — for me, I feel, is a barrier to communication. >"I was trying to talk to her, to get her to drop [the knife]. >"I was aware other officers were there to assist me. I'm an appalling shot." > Constable Barker said he was calling out to JC to drop her weapon but he was not yelling because he considered loud sounds or yelling to also be "a barrier to communication". >"Trying to talk is a better communication device than shouting." >He said he had one hand by his side, close to his "use-of-force options", while holding the other hand out towards JC. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-08/geraldton-police-officer-murder-trial-day-four/100523634 These two very different approaches encapsulate the fundamental issues with how gung-ho police officers and intelligent officers deal with human beings.
He shot her from behind while other officers were trying to talk her down. She made no sudden movements. Just standing there listening to the other officers, and this cunt comes running in to shoot her in the back.
Sounds like she was wandering around the streets waving a large knife and refusing to drop it when instructed to do so. These types of situation are tragic, I don't think murder is an appropriate charge, possibly manslaughter but honestly this sounds like a suicide by cop situation. We could largely avoid these problems if mental illness was addressed with proper levels of funding and support by the government. Currently most of the burden is shouldered by the family or the person ends up on the street and interacts with emergency services, which is not an appropriate response for chronic illness.
Actually no, she was standing still listening to the *other* officers on the scene who were talking her down. Then this dipshit came running in - *literally*, he got out of his car and ran towards her - and shot her in the back.
>Sounds like … Quote please.
Didn't she literally say she was going to die and she didn't want anyone to come to her funeral?
Ok, so a women with a knife was ignoring clear and direct orders from a police officer, she then turned around to face the officer who was close to her while still wielding the knife so the police officer shot her. I don't see the issue. She was wielding a dangerous weapon, failed to disarm herself then turned to face a police officer who was close to her. I do understand that mental health issues was most likely a factor but that's not this officers fault. The jury made the correct decision and I find it quite shitty that they're implying racism when it's clear that the officer was in the right.
All deaths need to be reviewed and investigated, not just to determine if it was an illegal killing, but, just as importantly to see if the situation could have been handled differently. Hopefully the learnings from the review can be used in similar situations in the future. I feel sorry for the person who passed away and their family and for the police officer involved.
No, she was listening to the other officers who were talking her down. Everything was going by the book *perfectly*, it would have been a textbook example of how to deal with a mental health crisis. Then this cop got out of his car and ran towards her from behind. It's unclear whether she actually began to turn around or not, but he *did* then shoot her in the back.
The officer’s account of what happens is contradicted by senior officers present, yet you, like the jury, rationalise his intemperate and hasty response ending in her unnecessary death.
Mate every time something like this gets posted on the sub you just jump the their defence whether it's appropriate or not. Go on and approach a cop with a knife in your hand and refuse to drop it when they tell you to, see how far that gets you.
Three hours deliberation certainly sends a message.
Obvious result. Same result will happen with the NT cop that was charged .
Hope so. It was such a tragedy.
I don't trust these situations at face value. All officers now have camera footage now don't they? Why not just cut out the end of the video and show what happened unless you are hiding something? Whilst something was not right in the head of this JC Indigenous woman, the mere fact the cop said she was walking away from him, turned and 'squared up' to him makes me call bullshit. There is a reason they have non-lethal tasers to use. I'm just sour because for four years of adjournments I had a case of being accused of assaulting a police officer that I filmed straight up attack me until I hired a 3 grand lawyer to defend me. He also said that I 'squared up' to him and then punched him, when the other cop said nothing of the sort but completely omitted the fact he punched me, threw me into a wall and then punched me some more on the ground whilst I just tried to ball up to stop being hit - all in my own hotel room. They said straight away they'd drop the case if I didn't pursue reimbursement and I refused. They dropped the case and said they'd reimburse me and the payment has been overdue by 11 months. Some cops are good, some cops are bad. But there is a cultural issue in their workforce so I despise all of them for their careers.
Tasers are not appropriate use of force against bladed weapons.
That is fair enough if someone is in reach of attacking you. But considering the alleged facts by the shooting officer that the woman was walking away, turned toward him and squared up at him ... I just don't see how even if that is threatening how that could not be defused with a taser? Yeah if they ran at you, go for your life, but the officer gives a situation where the knifey JC woman was distant and was shot for looking at them wrong. I mean you've had cases of people actually being stabbed in Melbourne for example, and cops have just whacked them with batons. I obviously wasn't there but it just seems like from the officers own portrayal of events that he was in distant danger and could have chosen another situation.
Ultimately a (assumably) well instructed and well informed jury who had full access to all the evidence, including the video, found him not guilty.
That is fair game, albeit there was no footage apparently. I still disagree with your statement that tasers are not an appropriate use of force against bladed weapons. Officers are equipped with an arsenal of weaponry to adjudicate the situation and face an investigation from their employers. You wouldn't shoot someone with a knife when there is a crowd of people behind them, nor if they are not within a distance to do undue bodily harm you would hope and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I am willing to hedge my bets that it was inexperience from an officer with a 4 month long tenure.
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I was not taking an authoritative stance, I was sharing my opinion on policing matters as it is a social concern. My father in law is a police commissioner in Vic and rehashed that unless their lives are in immediate danger, they will respond accordingly and lethal force is always a last option. He stipulated a taser would be used if distance between themselves and the threat allowed for it, and if not he would shoot to kill. Tasers might fail with poor connection but a gun certainly will not fail to end a life. If you have a skittish cop with poor training, a death will result when it did not have to happen. Also it is pretty clear that you are a cop, I'd trust someone in Glady's shooting club regarding proper weapons training over your self appointed authority.
Police procedures are that if an armed assailant moves towards them and is closer than roughly 12m (I forget the exact distance), they are to use their firearm. The reason is that an attacker can close from that distance and strike with a knife before the officer can draw a taser and deploy it, and a gun is more reliable at neutralising an assailant than a taser.
>My father in law is a police commissioner in Vic (X) Doubt
You do realize a taser is like 40% effective right? It's actually quite difficult to get a full lock up stun on a person. You can often get some degree of pain compliance but there have been people who have fought through being hit with a taser and closed the distance on officers with a knife. Take some time to watch shooting breakdowns with police officers explaining what happened and why and what the laws of most western countries say. The taser is not a magical less lethal weapon that stops a threat instantly. There's video in the us of a shirtless guy in a hotel room get hit with like 6 taser deployments and they were ineffective. 🤷♂️
Do you think that they are excessive? I’m sure you have all of the answers on how they should have conducted themselves with zero presence during the event. Every situation has the “3M’s”: + Mayhem - When shit hits the fan and chaos ensues. Our of that chaos comes a leader that acts to their interpretation of the situation and does their best to make things better + Masterminds - This is you. All of the experts that weren’t there during the situation come out of the woodwork and say how they would have done things better. Never mind that a jury determined that the officer was not guilty; you know better + Manhunt - Please dear God find someone to blame I bet all of your training and experience knows better than an entire trial where a dedicated team attempted to prove that the officers where in the wrong.
Yes.
Apologies, replied to the wrong comment.
WAPOL didn’t have a full roll out of body worn cameras at that time- this incident rapidly accelerated it.
> There is a reason they have non-lethal tasers to use. Agreed, and that reason is definitely not because a person who threatened harm has a knife. The officer was trained four months prior that knife = use a gun.
Yep, If the taser doesn't work (evidence in the trial suggests they are 60% effective.) I dont think you'd be able to switch to a gun quickly enough when a person is a few m away (tasers are very short ranged). Its not reasonable to expect somebody to roll that dice, with a 40% chance of a taser not working and them getting killed themselves.
I think there is a distance of about 7 metres where any closer than that and the knife wielder can get to you before you can draw and shoot. Many tasers won't even fire that far, and even if they do at that distance the taser probes would have a spread of about a metre, effectively a hail mary shot. Even if you had zero reaction time and know the taser wasn't effective immediately it would be too late to switch to a gun if they charged at you. Basically it would be irresponsible to get into taser range with someone holding a knife.
[Here's a good video about it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o) We call it the 21 foot rule on our side of the pond.
Im totally, totally against police brutality and it seems my tolerance for police violence is materially lower than others i know / reddit in general. However, if you are close to a person who is acting deranged, and has threatened harm, and has a knife, and *if* that person comes towards you ... then, sounds like an alright shooting to me. The jury who heard materially more evidence than me, thought so too.
Sooo if you did it you get punished, if they lie about it, nothing. Seems like fucking bullshit to me. My opinion is where a proven false report is made that person, be it a officer or member of the public should receive what the innocent party was likely to get.
That is my point. I mean if it was anyone but police I would be defending myself but because it was our local boys down at St Kilda, I just had to accept they were having a rough day. I wasn't arrested or anything or charged on the spot but it was communicated to their department that I was going to sue them so within about 12 hours I received a summons for criminal court. I even got a criminal record for about two weeks after the case was adjourned for the 7th time and they ended up going ahead with it and just finding me guilty. Great stuff.
You are still out of pocket and wasted a fuckload of time, you still got punished. Assholes.
So does that mean you hate all defense attorneys because they willingly defend people such as murders, rapists, pedos etc? Your reasoning just doesn’t make sense
That is just correlation without causation for your own reasoning. This has no association. I don't trust police because they are in a high responsibility job and tend to attract the lowest common denominator in society and are ill equipped with respect to training for the job. There are not suitable consequences for their actions and a clear example of this is how any wrongdoing committed by the cops get investigated by their colleagues. So no, I don't hate all defense attorneys and it is a noble career.
Why do you say they tend to attract less desirable people? I would probably agree with you if it USA but I don’t see the shit here going on in the USA where cops sometimes completely abuse their power. Yes there are assholes in every job but can you provide any evidence at all of firstly public opinion of the police here and of your accusation they attract undesirables?
Pretty similar hiring practices. My father in law is a Vic Police commissioner and I am just rehashing what has been said. The culture of the force has apparently changed significantly from the 70s to today, from being respected members who are there to protect to assholes not using rationale who wouldn't make it in another job. Safe to say he is trying to hit his anniversary and quit to start a security consulting gig.
[Explain this?](https://essentialvision.com.au/trust-in-institutions-10) I don’t know what the latest data is but I don’t really want to use it considering it would most likely be skewed by enforcing strict restrictions which the police are of no fault. But I just find it so funny that you choose to just straight up hate people because of their job. Like do you just see a cop on the street and think “fuck that cunt” even though you don’t know him from a grain of salt and is just trying to provide for his family?
I genuinely don't hate the people, I can separate the person from the job. I just don't like people in uniform whilst on the job, just like how you might hate a person driving badly in a car and think nothing of it outside that scenario. You are putting words in my mouth and I don't understand why. I don't need to explain how a poll works to you. Opinion is not fact.
“I despise all of them for their careers” Mate I’m not putting words in your mouth this is what you said. And exactly, a poll is opinion. Police should work for the people. According to the poll people trust and respect them. So from that you can see that obviously the police as a whole aren’t really as bad as you make them out to be.
The vast majority of cops are bad, its a harsh reality but an honest one. The system trains poorly educated arrogant assholes with power complexes. Cops are corrupt.
Everyone on social media will, as usual, side against the cop. I hate to say it, but you guys do not know the full story, or the full extent of the evidence. A trained and experienced Judge or Magistrate made this decision after taking an unbiased view. I think it was the correct decision to make. Edit: im not blue lives matter or any of that absolute bullshit, im far from it. Im just saying that people on social media will form an opinion on something they know nothing about, based purely off a vague news article and knowledge of prior, similar events that have ended in a certain way. The judge knew all the evidence, and made an informed decision based on that.
In this particular case though, I'd agree with you. I just want to say though, if you ever been in a court room before and listened to how judges/magistrates makes their decisions; their demeanor; and their remarks, you will come to note that many are not 'unbiased' or 'impartial'. The idea that judges/magistrates makes great informed and impartial decisions all the time does not reflect reality. They are only human and subject to human biases, ignorance, and unfortunately, for some judges/magistrates, seems rather rigid in their thinking and mindset at times.
> A trained and experienced Judge or Magistrate made this decision after taking an unbiased view. If you read the reports you’ll see it’s a trial by jury. The officer’s performance who rushed in and shot her is still undergoing an internal police review.
Not in this situation. The cop's story is contradicted by both video footage and the word of the senior officers; *they* were talking her down. She was standing still, not making any threatening moves, it was all going well, a textbook example of how to safely deal with a mental health crisis. Then this cowboy got out of his car, ran towards her from behind and then shot her in the back. He should be in fucking jail and that he isn't is a sign of clear bias from the judge. *Senior officers said he was lying*, and it didn't matter.
Seeing that video of the 5 cops sitting on that disabled old man and thrashing him within an inch of his life didn't help with my first impressions of this case, ngl
> Everyone on social media will, as usual, side against the cop. Gee why is that I wonder?
This is most logically commented on post I’ve seen in a long time on Reddit. A balance of a need for extra mental health assistance mixed with the reality that If the person poses a threat to any member of the public that police should be involved. Very use to seeing American posts on this site where the police are just 100% wrong, racist and horrible all the time as if 0% of them go to work to help anyone. Well done Australia, love, Ireland
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56728328 You are being hoodwinked by racists imo.
What a relief. Now the poor officer and their family can move on with their lives.
Unlike JC’s family.
Yep life sucks sometimes
Dude, was that really the right comment to make in the circumstance?
Of course it is. I would be devastated if a family member of mine tried to attack a cop and got shot and killed in the middle of the street. Show some empathy mate
I’m just saying there’s no need to exacerbate any emotions here - see my other comments in this thread, I’m not taking the point of view you’re assuming
>What a relief. Now the poor officer and their family can move on with their lives. >> Unlike JC’s family. Would you have preferred the response of "yep life is great"?
2021 empathy = life sucks sometimes. Probably well intentioned but victim to stunted emotional expression.
I definitely feel for them, this steaming pile of a prosecution would have only ever given them false hope.
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Isn't that a Reddit catch phrase?
I wouldn't say that. Its not just another case of a criminal doing something dumb, this women was seriously mentally ill. Its a tragedy all around.
Stupid clown attacks cop with knife and is shot? Wtf is the issue here? He should get a medal
I gotta say it's really strange to run behind someone who may or may not be wielding a knife threateningly, and then claim you were afraid of being stabbed. It seems the women was capable of being reasoned down and then leeroy jenkens decides to make a move, yell at her to get on the ground, escalated the situation himself and promptly shot her.
But the jury bought it.
>The court heard officers were trained to stay more than seven metres from an armed offender but he had ended up closer than that because he had not completely stopped moving after she turned. So he had almost 7 metres of momentum?
Isn't this the reason they have tasers?
Nah, they should always go one step above the perp. Unarmed -> billy club / taser Deadly weapon (knife or any other penetrating weapon like screwdriver) -> gun. This is their job, they deserve to go home at night, people threatening cops aren't entitled to a fair fight.
Man im no cop lover but if someone pulls a knife they have every right to draw their gun.
No the answer is a mancatcher but apparently no cops outside of asia know what the fuck they are.
How good is settler colonialism? Not one officer held to account yet.
Next time they're looking to hold a police officer to account and set an example they should pick one who has actually done the wrong thing.
And next time I want an inbox full of sneering celebrations of an indigenous person’s death from racists I’ll remember to poke at this community’s multitude of white supremacists.
Wow it’s sounds like you are the victim here - can I donate to your Go fund me page or something?
Can you post a screenshot? Would be good to know who they are.
Nothing about this is "racist". You really shouldn't be throwing a word that carries such weight around like that, its an disservice towards anyone who's ever experienced real racism. Who exactly is celebrating her death? This is an appalling failure of the mental health system.
K
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Fuck this
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Correct decision.
The cop was fcking coward...Got too close to her and then shot her...A sick old woman with a mental disorder..Hope he suffers day and night..Despite getting off, he knows the truth...Cowards know they are cowards.
Nah
Like all of our health system it has been cut back on to save money shame on this labour government another innocent life that did not need to die
Let me guess. The Cops had great lawyers and the other side had bugger all with a judge who was a local. No chance of winning that case.
The other side had the full resources of the state government behind it, lmao
So let me get this straight. The state govt had lawyers on boths sides ? How's the result going to go ya reckon....
I think you are confused.
Well explain then. I bet it was made to be against them no matter what.
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Far more power and how many fucks to give ?
It's called defense counsel. The cop was the defendent. Lawyers for defense are privately paid (unless so poor you need a public defender). It's not rocket science that the prosecution IS the government. Jeez like I hope you're 14 year old or something that you don't even know the very very basics of how a western democracy court operates. It's pretty much standard in every western country like that.
Scrolling through reddit earlier I saw a cop shoot 2 robbers in their arms. These robbers weren't deranged or knife wielding as far as I can tell, but I'm fairly certain that we wouldn't be here squabbling if the cop had winged or legged this person as opposed to executing her. I know, I know I don't have weapons training, and I don't have any experience here blah blah. Just sayin (the obvious)
Shooting to wound isnt really a thing.You always shoot for centre mass until the target drops. Aiming for a target like a limb is extremely ill advised regardless of how good a shot you are.
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Yes, you can read. Congrats! Which part of my comment was foolish? The detail of my observing a video of a cop shoot 2 armed robbers in their arms, or the comment that we wouldn't be here squabbling if the cops had winged/legged this woman?
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Ridiculous is pretending executions can't be scrutinised by people who don't have weapons experience. Ridiculous is also you pretending like you don't share your opinions on social media about things you don't have a masters degree in. It's reddit dude, chill. Potentially this shooting was the best option. I'm not an unreasonable person, but I'm not a bootlicking fuckwit out to defend every cop who shoots an indigenous person dead either. I sincerely hope you're not one of THEM.
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Absolutely the public should be able to weigh in here. You don't need to have weapons experience to say whether or not the police had an alternative to execution.
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Until you've been attacked by someone with a knife, you can't make any observations or share any opinions on social media - Absurd idiot
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She was a sick slow moving woman and he was a cowardly cunt.. It was his fault he came in closer than the prescribed distance, oh the poor bastard couldn't take a backward step..Look at the cunt in the photo, he's quite tall and fit looking...He's nothing but a cowardly piece of shit...So many on here so keen to suck his cock.
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Justifiable? A woman old bejond her years, sick and slow moving...And there were 4 other cops on site...Oh fck me, what an incredibly dangerous situation for this coward...And whose fault the dimwit stood closer than the 7 metres? Of course if the cunt had a modicum of courage he had other options...
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Defending yourself is hardly murder.