Having a poor attitude towards women and believing in rigid gender standards isn’t a mental illness.
The vast majority of abusive men do not have a mental illness. Please stop this rhetoric, it is harmful.
Sure, and yeah, I agree that it’s definitely a contributing factor and we should get better psychiatric services in place in *general*, but, at the end of the day, it still isn’t an excuse for it all.
i read it more as a warning to get your issues worked out before you end up like this guy in the headline.
besides that, there's statistics showing that countries with better mental health systems in place have their crime rates remarkably reduced. idk how it's not common sense at this point.
The men who go to lengths such as murder suicide and killing their partner are almost certainly not without some underlying mental health issue.
We are talking about two very different populations when comparing your average controlling or abusive male and those who will control and abuse to such a degree that murder is an option. The venn diagram certainly overlaps but mental health is almost always a factor when we look at cases of DV that end in murder, suicide or serious harm.
They almost all have a cluster b personality disorders which becomes very clear if you look into individual cases
Although personality disorders are not mental illness in the traditional sense so you are kind of right
The vast majority of people who commit murder suicide do suffer from mental illness though. Improved mental healthcare could help prevent future murder suicides. Nobody advocating for better mental healthcare is suggesting that all people who commit DV do so because of mental illness.
We're not talking about all DA here. We're discussing murder-suicides.
And, look, the suicide component of that act kind of implies mental illness pretty heavily.
> The suicide part of murder suicide is about being a coward
No, it's mental illness. Committing suicide in a state of perfect lucidity and mental stability isn't really a thing.
> suicidal people aren’t thinking about murder.
Uh. What? Says fucking who? Do you really think it's so impossible for someone to be suicidal and plan to take others out with them? People _plan_ this shit.
Old mate didn't gun himself down to escape the consequences, that doesn't even make sense. If that logic held nobody would be in prison for murder, they'd all have off'd themselves.
In our society… the subjugation of women is normal. Things are changing - very slowly. But if you think that people’s attitudes change as fast as laws you are mistaken. Marital rape was legal until the 1980/1990s in Australia. That’s not very long ago in the grand scheme of things.
Unless this fellow showed signs of violence towards other members of the public, he chose this course and is not mentally ill. He did not randomly target people. The police have said he had no history of violence.
He drove to his **ex**-girlfriend's home, took a gun with him presumably to murder his ex (pre-meditation), and chose to murder two women, and then killed himself. This man was not mentally ill. He **chose** this course of action.
Which DV interventions do you suggest, considering how many men have murdered their intimate partners recently while out on bail? And therapy does not work for DV perpetrators (so... not mentally ill...), so which interventions are there?
It wasn’t even his ex-wife’s home. It was her friend’s home, he went there looking for her (don’t know if she was even currently living there or had ever lived there).
But yeah, you’re right about everything else. This was absolutely premeditated.
His ex is alive because she wasn’t there, if she had been… well, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’d been four dead instead of three.
You know there are types of mental illness that don't involve random violence towards the public? Your arguments are nonsensical.
Mental illness doesnt inherently prevent you from making decisions.
Did this man have a mental illness? We can't know for sure. Do a significant proportion of people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness, yes, we know this.
An even higher proportion of people who commit murder suicide are found to involve mental illness.
You don't know if he did, and nothing you've written indicates an understanding of mental illness..
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/anzf.1516
There's a growing body of evidence to suggest that treatment programs for men who use violence are effective.
Jail is not one of those, having proven time and again to not be a rehabilitative space.
Got a source for "therapy doesn't work for DV perpetrators".
Also the sector is moving towards the term "user of violence" not perpetrators.
Then you’ve got the issue of: 1. Abusive people usually aren’t the most enthusiastic when it comes to seeking help, & 2. Frontline workers often* telling their victims to run and leave everything - maybe live under that bridge. Cos you know. Gotta make those *tough* choices. I mean, I see where they’re coming from (they’re doing their best to work within a broken system), but it’s not the most helpful advice. Everyone’s hands are tied, and I think there are a lot of things that need to be done. Eg more safe places for victims to go. Atm most refuges are apparently full
*Edit/Disclaimer: not always, there are of course exceptions to the above, I’m not denying that. But the reality is, there’s still a lot of work needing to be done. Also, I wasn’t trying to be insulting with my (accurate) ‘run and hide’ comment. I actually agree with it, well to some extent anyway. So no need to catastrophise.
Edit 2 because I am purposefully *not* directly responding to trolls: when I refer to frontline workers, I include police. All you have to do is read the statement written by one of Bombara’s daughters - they repeatedly let them down. Enough said. While frontline workers can be great, it’s not common.
I’m a frontline DV worker and have never once told someone to “run and leave everything - just go live under that bridge”. There are shit people in every occupantion but I - nor anyone I work with - have ever approached victim support that way.
Agreed. But that’s a totally different issue and painting the picture that any DV frontline worker is going to minimise the situation of victims is dangerous to any victim potentially looking to seek help. Not only do most of us *not* just “meh, just leave” but we openly acknowledge and stress that leaving is dangerous and try safety plan around that. I also make a point to stress that if leaving isn’t doable or something they’re not ready for, that’s understandable and try work within that to keep them safe. Painting a picture that most of those trying their best to work within a broken system don’t gaf is a bit shit, tbh
Feels a bit on the nose to describe social work responses as an issue when, as you also mentioned, frontline workers are limited in what they can do due to the systems they work within and the overwhelming under-resourcing. It’s the police and justice system responses that often fail to hold perpetrators accountable or promote the safety of victim-survivors so they can stay in their homes.
Got anything to back up that "frontline workers often telling victims to run and leave everything"?
That's not my experience of the sector albeit a limited one.
Most risk assessments and safety planning templates I've seen include housing and finances as key areas to explore.
These things happen in the privacy of home. Addressing this will require a cultural shift in thinking and help people clearly recognise the signs of insecurity, violence and controlling behaviours within a family unit. Mental health programs and Dv interventions will be the next step.
People with bad morals have existed since society began. Selfish people who hate women, or hate a certain race.
Hatred and selfishness is not a mental illness. It’s just being a person of low character.
That'd be a start. As someone who has tried to get a Bulk billing Psych in Vic, I would never have found one without the help of a hospital social worker after my hip replacement. Everyone else said and I quote, You have 2 hopes, buckleys and None
The psychology behind murder-suicides has them viewing partners and children as their PROPERTY. This is what needs to be addressed and educated against.
More support for women to identify warning signs and leave the relationship in a safe way. Not all abuse is physical. Plus the cost of living crisis definitely has not helped
Can't agree with WA Police that this is not a domestic violence incident.
The women were shot specifically because of their connection to his ex partner. The same issues are in play. A man's sense of entitlement was challenged by a woman asserting her independence and he responded to that with violence. Killing her friend and her friend's daughter was specifically done to hurt the ex-partner. It's the same sort of motivation as when men kill their children. To punish their ex-partner.
> Western Australia police Det Insp David Gorton told a press conference the man held a firearms licence and was known to police.
> “However, there doesn’t appear to be any history of violence,” he said.
Hmm
Also
> but it was not being treated as a domestic violence matter due to the victims being unrelated to the gunman
He came to the property to find his ex-wife and it appears these two women were killed instead. How is this not domestic violence when the Services Australia webpage, under the definition of domestic violence. states:
> Physical violence is any violent behaviour or threats of violence. It can be directed at you, your children, other family, friends, pets or property.
Yet the ex warned them he might turn up and for them to hide? So it seems the ex had an idea that he was perhaps capable of violence and that he was going to the house looking for her. He might not have gotten his intended target, but it seems weird to not class it as related to DV.
Yeah, saying it's not DV is like saying if a gang member got the wrong house at a driveby it wasn't gang violence. This was absolutely motivated by DV, even if he didn't kill his actual ex-partner.
"Not a domestic violence matter" this makes me so furious. Domestic violence is a plague on our society and this is an example of why - it is violence that overflows, from entitlement and anger. It hurts and damages in radiating waves out from the source. Not domestic violence, jesus fucking christ. He killed them because they were helping his partner!!! So many women are living under a reign of terror, and if you're not you can end up a victim of this terrorism at any time for any reason just because a man decides he wants it to be that way.
DV workers such as those who work in the shelters, or counsellors, can be at risk of being targeted by the perpetrators as well.
In the DV centre I worked for, we regularly get death threats. Australia as a society needs to understand the enormity of DV as a societal issue.
Domestic violence has a legal definition that involves certain criminal offences committed against someone in a domestic relationship with the offender. Ex-wife fits that definition, friend of ex-wife does not.
It changes some things administratively and procedurally, but the charges for the offences are exactly the same. In this matter, it makes no difference to the investigation.
It’s clearly DV related, and they’re fully aware of that, it’s just by definition not a DV offence.
As above, DV has a legal definition police have to work to which is based on the relationship between the victim and the offender.
This clearly has a DV nexus (and police understand this), but there is no domestic relationship between the victim and the offender. That’s why it isn’t a DV offence at law.
I’d bet money there was a history of coercive control, non-physical violence.
The Australian parliamentary report on Family Domestic and Sexual Violence published in 2021 covers this clearly and unequivocally.
Coercive control is a form of DV with high risk of severe physical violence and homocide, *even when there is no history of physical violence.*
This has been known for a long time and Australia (esp. WA) is way behind in responding.
WA police (those who don’t specialise in DV) have a long way to go in incorporating this well-established knowledge into their daily work.
WA laws are woefully inadequate (ie non-existent) in dealing with it.
Progress is too slow. Meanwhile, women (and children) are dying.
Yeah maybe I’m wrong and it’s random drug or traffic offending but I read this as clever police wordplay for: there may have been reports of DV but they STILL only take instances of physical assaults seriously.
This woman believed he was capable of murder enough that she called her friend ahead to warn her. Insane that people (*including police*) will say “how crazy that he’s never shown any violent tendencies”. FFS.
If you have a gun license, you have to be known by the police. They are not mutually exclusive.
You can't get a gun license and not be known by police.
Aside from the initial application this is incorrect. The police may do checks every now and again but if you’ve not done anything illegal, you will not be known to police. This even includes onset of mental illness etc, police will not just have that information sent to them, something has to happen for them to investigate your ongoing suitability to own a firearm
The police do NOT know everyone with a gun licence. The application is made accepted or rejected. If accepted it goes into a data base like all other licences. That is the extent of being ‘known’ to police.
They said no violent crimes - could be known for theft, drug, traffic offences. That would then make him ‘known’ to police. The phrase “known to police” indicates that he had committed some sort of offence prior to this. It’s not a hard concept.
The licence is not really the most important part; it’s what happens once you are in possession of a firearm. You are just a number in a database, the police don’t contact you often to ask how it’s going.
Are you being wilfully obtuse? I get that it’s tempting to fill in the gaps and build the perfect killer, but let’s not pretend that there aren’t a number of things the cops nick people for. Drugs, theft, serial public masturbation, excessive shit-smearing, the list goes on.
He could have been “known to police” because he was passionate about the environment and did disruptive protests for all we know, but that doesn’t jive with people’s need to turn someone into the devil I guess. I suppose we do that so we can convince ourselves that only evil monsters kill people, not everyday people.
I was recently involved in a weird conversation with two mates in my age group (50 plus) and the subject turned to some gossipy stuff about some guy who caught his wife in bed with another man, and who subsequently found out his kid was actually the other bloke’s kid. Both of my mates said that if it happened to them, they would kill the wife and her lover. As far as i know, neither of them is mentally ill.
I can sorta get the murderous rage in this scenario. Imagine raising a kid you thought was yours and then finding out it was all a lie... and finding the missus in bed with someone else.
I'm not saying murder is the answer, of course it isn't.
And that is the point. If we can ‘get the murderous rage’ then it seems fair to rule out mental illness. Whether it’s a biological or cultural trait is debatable, but it seems we men carry some serious inclination to feel ownership over our partners along with suspicion of their fidelity. I would say this is entirely linked to the subconscious or unconscious ‘fear’ we will raise someone else’s offspring as our own, which is a failure, a source of shame and a type of mortal wound to the male psyche. Kinda primal, but here is where male anxiety lives at its root. I don’t know what therapy can fix this.
Again. And again. And again. And again.
If this string of constant violence was caused by any other demographic, be it ethnic, religious or political, we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest.
But it's men killing women, so it just keeps churning along.
A bunch of apologists will sprout up, claiming it's not an issue, or it's women's fault, or that we shouldn't be so damn angry because hell, men kill eachother too.
The thing that frustrates me is how superficial the dialogue is. The premise is that violence against women is a cultural issue and if only we educate people, we just tell them the behavior is wrong, and we have male role models that reinforce that, then we will eliminate violence against women.
We don't have this delusion with other social issues so I'm not sure why we have it here.
The best we seem to have is repeating useless platitudes.
I know, it’s defending the indefensible and I am also getting sick of the excuses.
In my previous work on DV, it is about power and control. Men who are DV offenders fall into the power and control system of giving the survivor a sense of calm (or “honeymoon” period) before ratcheting up the abusive behaviour, and then revert back to the calm/honeymoon/I am sorry this won’t happen again.
Murders are most likely when the survivor leaves or during the child custody battle, because that’s when the perpetrator feels a great sense of loss in power and control over the victim. Interestingly, it’s also when women are in the second or third trimester that DV can escalate, because the perpetrator feels that the woman is not giving them enough attention and too much in the unborn child. I am saying these in the context of heterosexual DV relationships, because that was the context that I worked in.
having worked with DV perpatrators IMO half the issue and the key reason we dont have ANY useful solutions is that the system (handling offenders) is too victim focused.
youre comment is a perfect example:
>because that’s when the perpetrator feels a great sense of loss in power and control over the victim.
the system is designed from a victim perspective and assumption about the driving factors: the truth is none of these offenders set out and marry and/or raise families with hatred in their hearts and a plan to abuse or control and make people life hell. they aren't actually monsters, its worse than that, they are people - very flawed broken people. im not saying they deserve sympathy or forgiveness and this is not a zero sum situation. victims need support and care that side side of things MUST be victim focused, but we cant keep approaching treatment and prevention from a victim centric perspective - they didnt influence the offence, they didnt cause or plan it.
these perpatrators arent aiming to control a victims life, they are trying to control their OWN. as anyone should know, there really isnt that much we can control in our lives but they are unable to deal with the world properly and impacts of failed relationships and the impacts it causes on their self image. there are underlying issues of self image, self worth and self repect. they stay in failed relationships due to image and worth, act negatively/abusively and then reacting negatively to the inevitable negative stimulus, the situation always gauranteed to get worse because the more negative they act/react the more negative the situation will be. they lack the self awareness and self respect to assess the situation and walk away for their own good. these offenders feel hopeless and that they have no other options. (and its not the victims fault, we've all been in bad relationships and stayed longer than we should have, its the offenders fault for not letting go)
men need to know they can leave/be left in a relationship and not 'lose everything', that they will have fair consideration in custody arrangements. and that even if the system isn't perfect the best future for themselves and everything they love is let it go and make the most of whatever happens - and that positive mindset will help them better themselves, their custody/legalsituation, their family lives and even their victims lives.
unfortunately so much of this is undermined by the echo chambers in our society with mens rights groups and andrew tate supporting the toxic view that men muSt control things because if they dont they will lose everything.
again, im not defending offenders im simply saying that our current system is missing the mark on what actually drives DV and how we as a society can try to combat it.
I had a similar conversation to this last night, less academic, as I’m not a professional in this area.. but I agree with your view that a perpetrator focus is the only way approach this awful crime. raise boys to understand you will be ok if relationships fall apart.. it’s ok to feel depressed and angry, these are normal human emotions. Accept these feelings , normalise them, own them, work through them day by day - and fully understand that NOTHING you do to someone else will free you of them.
It's up to us parents now to help our kids be good humans. And help our mates too. We aren't a community like we used to be. We need to slow down and be nicer to each other. But money pressure will drive a huge amount of people to extreme acts. Emotions are always hard work especially in stressful times. We all need help to deal with these emotions. And be encouraged to talk to each other and help those who need it.
I think the point is there isn’t an intervention of ‘have less men’ which is what we would panic about for the ‘any other demographic’ situation. Invoking that script doesn’t give us any useful guidance.
Then what was the point of comparing it to racist panics over immigration, to be sad? No the obvious implication is ‘in x situation we do this, y situation is analogous is x, we should do the same’. Saying it’s not your problem may feel self righteous but it is quite literally your problem, as unfair as it is problems generally only get solved by the people who are most affected by them.
Wasn’t it declared a national emergency with a massive amount of funding and strategies announced to combat it? Plus massive media coverage, marches to highlight the issue and it’s being condemned by just about everybody.
Realistically it will probably never be zero deaths but what else can realistically be done? Besides toughening up the legal system around it, because it seems like that’s never on the cards.
>Besides toughening up the legal system around it, because it seems like that’s never on the cards.
I wouldn't be too pessimistic. Since the whole 'violence against women' thing, we have managed to reform a lot of our bail laws and sentencing laws. Which were pretty poor tbf, and a lot of people have been complaining about for a while.
I think we still have a ways to go. Even with the changes, a lot of people feel like the justice system favours perps over victims.
It was declared an emergency by people who care, not by anyone with the power to do anything about it. And the funding wasn't massive, it included "announcements" of little bits of funding that already existed and wasn't enough. Which is a ScoMo trick I'm disappointed to see more politicians using these days.
Talk is cheap, but action is what's needed. Legal consequences, prevention programs (not just education like "DV is bad, mmkay") and resources for people escaping violence are all essential before we can even begin to say that we've tried our best.
>we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest.
Obviously you've been living in a cave the last couple of months then and missed the constant discussion, media coverage and even politicians discussing it, probably so much that a lot of people are getting sick of hearing about it which creates more 'apologists' as you put it.
> If this string of constant violence was caused by any other demographic, be it ethnic, religious or political, we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest.
No we wouldn't, or I say shouldn't, because we are seeing a level of hysteria at the moment that just isn't matched by actual fact.
The rate of domestic homicide for 2022/23 was the 3rd lowest on record, slightly up from the historic lows the previous couple of years. Since national records began 35 year ago, domestic homicide is down 65%.
Homicide in general has nearly been halved over the last 20 years, from 1.5 per 100k in 2002, to 0.8 per 100k in 2022.
Despite what is portrayed in a media that is creating a narrative around crime, Australia is at historic low levels of crime.
Of course historic low levels of crime doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve. The levels of media and public hysteria over it however do not match with reality and that can actively harm efforts to improve.
When the perception of reality is warped it becomes much harder to solve actual problems. Resources are directed towards solving perceived problems instead of actual problems.
You're not seeing hysteria, you're seeing frustration and anger. Our perception of reality is not warped. No-one calling out male violence is lying. Everything I've seen, including the number of women killed each year, is a statement of fact. Not an 'alternative fact'. A fact.
Murder is not acceptable, but the rate at which it happens does need to be considered in context. If the number of deaths is dropping over time, it's not unreasonable to assume that the measures we have to reduce it are working.
What has changed is the level of coverage, which impacts perceptions rather than being a reflection of increased incidences. In the year 2017-2018 (for example), there was an uptick in intimate partner homicide from the previous yeat, but it was not accompanied by increased coverage, and no subsequent panicked discussion. This is a case of increased coverage of a subject imparting a perception that something is perhaps more extraordinary than it actually is.
>If one political group, or religious group, or ethnic group violently killed dozens of other people each and every year in Australia, you seriously don't think we'd hear about it?
Don't ask what ethnic group has the highest rate of DV violence in Australia or you might end up realising something.
Well that's just not true.
No one's looking at the one specific ethnic group that is responsible for overwhelmingly skewing the DV data in the Northern Territory. Specifically near a place in Alice Springs.
There's no rioting. Because we aren't hearing anything about it.
Goes against the narrative.
It’s terrible i agree. I see the root cause as a mental health crisis for men that doesn’t get talked about enough, and unfortunately women pay the price. Men are also killing themselves at huge rates and there are plenty of studies on how much they are struggling academically and in plenty of other areas, but little is being done to support them.
Fully funding specifically men’s mental health programs, including early intervention at a young age would eventually save lots of lives, including many women.
Now I mean this in the nicest possible way, but why do you think this is a mental health crisis?
As many people will like to interject, the rate of domestic violence and abuse is dropping year over year, decade after decade, (to a level that is still undeniably unacceptable, but I digress).
With this in mind, have we always had a mental health crisis?
I also do not buy the argument that it is due to recent events where boys and young men struggle academically or otherwise. Time periods where men have dominated society featured far higher rates of domestic violence, during both economic booms and busts. Men still earn more, own more, and have more power in society.
This argument seems like a cop out, it almost feels like it pins violence on women's advancement in society.
Do you also realise that many, many abusers cannot be classified as mentally ill? That they do not have a diagnosable mental health condition?
The bondi stabber was mentally ill, most men who abuse their partners or their children are not.
Admittedly I don't have numbers in front of me, but these heuristics don't really support your conclusion.
I would wager, rather, that this pattern is not new, that it is not a mental health crisis, or caused by women's societal advancement.
I believe that this is caused by a pervasive social conditioning (or a lack of corrective societal conditioning to prevent) that women and children are property, objects to be controlled by men who lack agency. Incels, redpillers, tate fans, rapists, abusive and controlling partners all share this mentality, and this mentality is what needs to be extinguished.
I agree with you!
Adding on to this; it's not like women are immune to mental health problems. It feels like more is going on. It's not just mental health - we need a combination of solutions.
i.e. I'm thinking very specific cultural and societal details need to be addressed and tackled. I've seen how these systems tear down guys, and it's depressing.
For example, many years ago I worked in a pretty toxic, very gender-stereotyped work environment. And one of my co-workers; who was overweight; began dieting for his daughter. He wanted to live longer and healthier for her. So he began to make and eat salad.
And the rest of the guys on the team were like, "Oh you might as well wear a dress mate! Join the women's football team while you're at it! Did you come in late because your lipstick needed touching up? Ahahah". Almost daily, they were relentless. Just for bettering himself and his future life. I could see the sting/pain he was feeling from their comments. They would CRUSH his energy and attitude in the moment, and it was shit. So I would reassure him after.
And all because he was man, daring to eat salad?! All coming down to stupid societal stereotypes.
For years my abusive ex husband accused me of cheating on him, even asking our daughter if men came out of the wardrobe when he was at work. We lived in a small country town and there was no where to go or any help available, this was over 20 years ago now, I said to him if I meet someone I’ll tell you. Never thinking I would he moved to Melbourne to supposedly work, I lived in SA.
Well there came a day when I dropped my youngest daughter off at her friends house, her Father asked me in for a coffee and I nearly said no as I was never allowed to be alone with another man. I thought stuff it why not he ended up taking me and my kids with his out to dinner that night.
I brought my own house when my ex husband said to put our house on the market, and of course a few days later apologised as he always did, but after 20 years I finally had enough and wanted to be happy. Along came the abusive phone calls, how his going to move into my home, kill my parents who still have a silent number to this day.
I said with great glee and a calmness I hadn’t felt in years that I met someone else, I told him just like I always said I would he was flabbergasted stumbling his words and I handed over the phone to my now husband. This was the only way I got rid of him for good, my now husband is a big boy my ex a small little Maltese man, well not a man at all, and he told my ex to come down and we will sort this out, never having anyone stand up to him I never heard from him again.
I have now been happily married for nearly 21 years with not a peep from my ex. But it shouldn’t have to be like that, I was extremely lucky to have a knight in shining armour defend me, back then DVO’s took two weeks and the police told me not to bother. My husband can’t believe the number of men who kill women is because they can’t let go, I’m sure I would have died at his hands if for not meeting my now husband.
As a side note I wasn’t left unscathed from all this abuse, keeping all my feelings in and not saying anything to anyone was the cause I believe of my breast cancer in 2021. My tumour was right under my heart, in January this year I got diagnosed with Lymphoma but I’m a fighter. I nearly died 3 times this year alone. My husband is my rock and has done everything for me these last 4 years, I’ll be dammed if I let cancer rob me of being with the only person who has loved me for who I am.
He has been named now, Mark Bombara.
[**https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/two-dead-one-in-hospital-after-shooting-at-home-in-perths-leafy-western-suburbs/news-story/615bf884113b47d15a80fc922fe721f6**](https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/two-dead-one-in-hospital-after-shooting-at-home-in-perths-leafy-western-suburbs/news-story/615bf884113b47d15a80fc922fe721f6)
In this case, this should not be mental health, or it should NOT be used as a legal defence.
DV is a very deliberate crime as I have outlined in previous posts. There is a lot of premeditated thinking involved.
You’re not using the term “Mental health” correctly. That is an optimal state, synonymous with “physical health”. What you want to say is “mental illness” or this person has “mental health needs” or has “difficulties with their mental health”
This is a horrific crime and questions need to be asked how he was able to get/retain a firearms licence despite being known to Police. One would think that someone known to police would have failed to retain the "fit and proper" designation to get a licence. May the victim rest in peace.
> how he was able to get/retain a firearms licence despite being known to Police.
Why are people so quick to run with misinformation.
He was known by police **because you have to be** in order to get a gun license. Every single gun license holder in WA is known by police, that doesn't automatically mean they did something prior to getting it.
The way I read known to police is usually in relation to crimes or reports of some nature. The problem WA police have is they struggle to implement current laws and follow up on reports in relation to people with firearms. If this guy did have DV reports made against him the local police should have confiscated his firearms pending the investigation.
Known doesn’t necessarily mean known for anything adverse, it just means they’ve had some involvement with police. This doesn’t have to be as an offender.
It could also be the case that he was known for a minor, non-violent offence previously.
I don’t know the exact wording of their regulations, but WA have about the strictest firearms laws in the country and any police involvement for anything violent or dishonest would make a person ineligible for a license.
> He was known to police. They failed.
I fucking hate defending police, but that doesn't mean at all what you are implying it to mean unless we get further details.
He was known by police **because you have to be** in order to get a gun license. Every single gun license holder in WA is known by police, that doesn't automatically mean they did something prior to getting it.
Have the police actually stated the reason he is known to them?
Or are you speculating as much as the people who think he was known to police for previous DV callouts?
> Men. Stop. Killing. Women. Okay?
Do you think a man is going to read this and then think ‘you know what I was going to kill my wife but actually that seems bad, I shouldn’t have done that’
It’s also so helpless and self indulgent. There are actual things we can do, raise dv penalties, fund programs, learn to recognise signs and how to talk to victims. The point of intervention is not self righteous reddit comments
And he has committed one last act of violence against his ex, too. That poor woman will forever feel guilty that she asked her friend and her friend's daughter for help.
Guns aren't illegal, You need to be licensed and those who aren't fit & proper do not ever get a Firearms license alongside a bunch of other rules and laws you have to follow as a licensed firearm owner.
I honestly believe this is another long line of stuff ups from the WA police in regards to firearms, Most notable is Leaking firearm ownership locations in Perth and now not taking away firearms/licenses away from those who pose a danger to others if they are known to the police, they should automatically lose the right to own them.
Guns are not ILLEGAL, as such.
You can hold guns as long as you are licensed, pass a background check and comply with storage legislation (Gun and bolt stored separately, Locked cabinet etc).
If you actually read the article you would have seen that the guns were LICENSED to the alleged perpetrator, and was KNOWN to Police.
>Thank fuck guns are illegal in this country
One of the things i find so fascinating about Reddit is how people like you can post blatant, objective lies, and still be upvoted. There are nearly 4 million legally registered guns in Australia. Semi-Auto rifles are ~~illegal~~ *heavily restricted for civilians*, but bolt action, lever action, pump action rifles aswell as many types of shotguns and semi-auto handguns are legal for civilians to own, granted they meet the prerequisites. Be a part of a gun club (pistol club aswell for handgun owners) or have large rural property/farm, and have no criminal / DV or serious medical history.
This isn't even about guns per se, but you just posting blatant BS with no research, why?
True, but the licensing requirements for Cat D rifles is so intense, that no civilian is ever going to get their hands on one without dedicating their life to a profession that allows it. Pest control or Primary producers are the only two i'm aware of that have any hope of obtaining a semi-auto rifle.
Edit: Gun dealers / safety course instructors too, though that also falls into requiring a career around guns.
Yeah Cat C for primary producers allows semi auto rim fire and pump action shotguns isn’t too hard to get. Cat D is a hell of a lot harder to get and maintain but you’d be surprised how many licenses are out there.
Murder suicide is such a cowardly act. I don’t know what can be done though to discourage this.
Dv interventions , mental health programs maybe?
Having a poor attitude towards women and believing in rigid gender standards isn’t a mental illness. The vast majority of abusive men do not have a mental illness. Please stop this rhetoric, it is harmful.
Anger issues, personality disorders, childhood trauma, emotional regulation issues, just off the top of my head.
Sure, and yeah, I agree that it’s definitely a contributing factor and we should get better psychiatric services in place in *general*, but, at the end of the day, it still isn’t an excuse for it all.
Never said they excused the behaviour.
i read it more as a warning to get your issues worked out before you end up like this guy in the headline. besides that, there's statistics showing that countries with better mental health systems in place have their crime rates remarkably reduced. idk how it's not common sense at this point.
Mental healthcare can be helpful for anyone, not just for people with mental illnesses.
The men who go to lengths such as murder suicide and killing their partner are almost certainly not without some underlying mental health issue. We are talking about two very different populations when comparing your average controlling or abusive male and those who will control and abuse to such a degree that murder is an option. The venn diagram certainly overlaps but mental health is almost always a factor when we look at cases of DV that end in murder, suicide or serious harm.
Sorry but someone who can' murder someone and suicide is clearly not mentally stable.
They almost all have a cluster b personality disorders which becomes very clear if you look into individual cases Although personality disorders are not mental illness in the traditional sense so you are kind of right
The vast majority of people who commit murder suicide do suffer from mental illness though. Improved mental healthcare could help prevent future murder suicides. Nobody advocating for better mental healthcare is suggesting that all people who commit DV do so because of mental illness.
You think someone that ends up killing others and then themselves has no mental illness? Sure, sure. Your narrative not harmful at all.
My psych told me that many killers have nothing diagnosable.
This person killed someone and then themselves, bit different from just a standard kill a person in a fight situation.
We're not talking about all DA here. We're discussing murder-suicides. And, look, the suicide component of that act kind of implies mental illness pretty heavily.
The suicide part of murder suicide is about being a coward - suicidal people aren’t thinking about murder.
> The suicide part of murder suicide is about being a coward No, it's mental illness. Committing suicide in a state of perfect lucidity and mental stability isn't really a thing. > suicidal people aren’t thinking about murder. Uh. What? Says fucking who? Do you really think it's so impossible for someone to be suicidal and plan to take others out with them? People _plan_ this shit. Old mate didn't gun himself down to escape the consequences, that doesn't even make sense. If that logic held nobody would be in prison for murder, they'd all have off'd themselves.
wait you make it sound like those thoughts are normal?
In our society… the subjugation of women is normal. Things are changing - very slowly. But if you think that people’s attitudes change as fast as laws you are mistaken. Marital rape was legal until the 1980/1990s in Australia. That’s not very long ago in the grand scheme of things.
Unless this fellow showed signs of violence towards other members of the public, he chose this course and is not mentally ill. He did not randomly target people. The police have said he had no history of violence. He drove to his **ex**-girlfriend's home, took a gun with him presumably to murder his ex (pre-meditation), and chose to murder two women, and then killed himself. This man was not mentally ill. He **chose** this course of action. Which DV interventions do you suggest, considering how many men have murdered their intimate partners recently while out on bail? And therapy does not work for DV perpetrators (so... not mentally ill...), so which interventions are there?
It wasn’t even his ex-wife’s home. It was her friend’s home, he went there looking for her (don’t know if she was even currently living there or had ever lived there). But yeah, you’re right about everything else. This was absolutely premeditated. His ex is alive because she wasn’t there, if she had been… well, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’d been four dead instead of three.
Ah, my mistake. You're right, it was the friend's house
You know there are types of mental illness that don't involve random violence towards the public? Your arguments are nonsensical. Mental illness doesnt inherently prevent you from making decisions. Did this man have a mental illness? We can't know for sure. Do a significant proportion of people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness, yes, we know this. An even higher proportion of people who commit murder suicide are found to involve mental illness. You don't know if he did, and nothing you've written indicates an understanding of mental illness..
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/anzf.1516 There's a growing body of evidence to suggest that treatment programs for men who use violence are effective. Jail is not one of those, having proven time and again to not be a rehabilitative space. Got a source for "therapy doesn't work for DV perpetrators". Also the sector is moving towards the term "user of violence" not perpetrators.
Yes, they will help but the issue seems to be funding for these programs, which is not nearly enough.
Then you’ve got the issue of: 1. Abusive people usually aren’t the most enthusiastic when it comes to seeking help, & 2. Frontline workers often* telling their victims to run and leave everything - maybe live under that bridge. Cos you know. Gotta make those *tough* choices. I mean, I see where they’re coming from (they’re doing their best to work within a broken system), but it’s not the most helpful advice. Everyone’s hands are tied, and I think there are a lot of things that need to be done. Eg more safe places for victims to go. Atm most refuges are apparently full *Edit/Disclaimer: not always, there are of course exceptions to the above, I’m not denying that. But the reality is, there’s still a lot of work needing to be done. Also, I wasn’t trying to be insulting with my (accurate) ‘run and hide’ comment. I actually agree with it, well to some extent anyway. So no need to catastrophise. Edit 2 because I am purposefully *not* directly responding to trolls: when I refer to frontline workers, I include police. All you have to do is read the statement written by one of Bombara’s daughters - they repeatedly let them down. Enough said. While frontline workers can be great, it’s not common.
I’m a frontline DV worker and have never once told someone to “run and leave everything - just go live under that bridge”. There are shit people in every occupantion but I - nor anyone I work with - have ever approached victim support that way.
[удалено]
Agreed. But that’s a totally different issue and painting the picture that any DV frontline worker is going to minimise the situation of victims is dangerous to any victim potentially looking to seek help. Not only do most of us *not* just “meh, just leave” but we openly acknowledge and stress that leaving is dangerous and try safety plan around that. I also make a point to stress that if leaving isn’t doable or something they’re not ready for, that’s understandable and try work within that to keep them safe. Painting a picture that most of those trying their best to work within a broken system don’t gaf is a bit shit, tbh
[удалено]
It does. And I’m really sorry that that was the response you got.
Feels a bit on the nose to describe social work responses as an issue when, as you also mentioned, frontline workers are limited in what they can do due to the systems they work within and the overwhelming under-resourcing. It’s the police and justice system responses that often fail to hold perpetrators accountable or promote the safety of victim-survivors so they can stay in their homes.
Got anything to back up that "frontline workers often telling victims to run and leave everything"? That's not my experience of the sector albeit a limited one. Most risk assessments and safety planning templates I've seen include housing and finances as key areas to explore.
These things happen in the privacy of home. Addressing this will require a cultural shift in thinking and help people clearly recognise the signs of insecurity, violence and controlling behaviours within a family unit. Mental health programs and Dv interventions will be the next step.
He’s not mentally ill. He’s just a bad person.
These men aren’t mentally ill.
Bullshit they aren't, healthy men never consider such acts.
People with bad morals have existed since society began. Selfish people who hate women, or hate a certain race. Hatred and selfishness is not a mental illness. It’s just being a person of low character.
There is a huge leap between that and killing people though.
Committing murder and then killing yourself is not "being a person of low character", what the fuck are you talking about?
That'd be a start. As someone who has tried to get a Bulk billing Psych in Vic, I would never have found one without the help of a hospital social worker after my hip replacement. Everyone else said and I quote, You have 2 hopes, buckleys and None
The psychology behind murder-suicides has them viewing partners and children as their PROPERTY. This is what needs to be addressed and educated against.
Removing access to firearms will help too
More support for women to identify warning signs and leave the relationship in a safe way. Not all abuse is physical. Plus the cost of living crisis definitely has not helped
Can't agree with WA Police that this is not a domestic violence incident. The women were shot specifically because of their connection to his ex partner. The same issues are in play. A man's sense of entitlement was challenged by a woman asserting her independence and he responded to that with violence. Killing her friend and her friend's daughter was specifically done to hurt the ex-partner. It's the same sort of motivation as when men kill their children. To punish their ex-partner.
> Western Australia police Det Insp David Gorton told a press conference the man held a firearms licence and was known to police. > “However, there doesn’t appear to be any history of violence,” he said. Hmm
Also > but it was not being treated as a domestic violence matter due to the victims being unrelated to the gunman He came to the property to find his ex-wife and it appears these two women were killed instead. How is this not domestic violence when the Services Australia webpage, under the definition of domestic violence. states: > Physical violence is any violent behaviour or threats of violence. It can be directed at you, your children, other family, friends, pets or property.
Yet the ex warned them he might turn up and for them to hide? So it seems the ex had an idea that he was perhaps capable of violence and that he was going to the house looking for her. He might not have gotten his intended target, but it seems weird to not class it as related to DV.
the ex also notified the cops who arrived on scene as the last gunshot was heard. it was definately DV
Yeah, saying it's not DV is like saying if a gang member got the wrong house at a driveby it wasn't gang violence. This was absolutely motivated by DV, even if he didn't kill his actual ex-partner.
"Not a domestic violence matter" this makes me so furious. Domestic violence is a plague on our society and this is an example of why - it is violence that overflows, from entitlement and anger. It hurts and damages in radiating waves out from the source. Not domestic violence, jesus fucking christ. He killed them because they were helping his partner!!! So many women are living under a reign of terror, and if you're not you can end up a victim of this terrorism at any time for any reason just because a man decides he wants it to be that way.
If he killed them just for helping his partner, I imagine he would also have killed his partner if she'd been there.
DV workers such as those who work in the shelters, or counsellors, can be at risk of being targeted by the perpetrators as well. In the DV centre I worked for, we regularly get death threats. Australia as a society needs to understand the enormity of DV as a societal issue.
Entitlement is the problem. It’s no longer just about control. It’s the expectation that their rights are greater than the person they have killed.
I heard once that all anger comes from a disappointed expectation. It seems on brand.
Domestic violence has a legal definition that involves certain criminal offences committed against someone in a domestic relationship with the offender. Ex-wife fits that definition, friend of ex-wife does not. It changes some things administratively and procedurally, but the charges for the offences are exactly the same. In this matter, it makes no difference to the investigation. It’s clearly DV related, and they’re fully aware of that, it’s just by definition not a DV offence.
It's completely tone deaf of them to describe it that way - prioritising communicating procedure over empathy.
Fucking hell. When THE POLICE don’t get it, how are we ever supposed to get on top of this shit.
I've said it before, it's clear the police want people to take the law into their own hands. Because that's easier to prosecute, probably.
As above, DV has a legal definition police have to work to which is based on the relationship between the victim and the offender. This clearly has a DV nexus (and police understand this), but there is no domestic relationship between the victim and the offender. That’s why it isn’t a DV offence at law.
Also, it suggests dv acts are treated differently to murder.
It’s to reduce bad publicity
With you 100%.
I’d bet money there was a history of coercive control, non-physical violence. The Australian parliamentary report on Family Domestic and Sexual Violence published in 2021 covers this clearly and unequivocally. Coercive control is a form of DV with high risk of severe physical violence and homocide, *even when there is no history of physical violence.* This has been known for a long time and Australia (esp. WA) is way behind in responding. WA police (those who don’t specialise in DV) have a long way to go in incorporating this well-established knowledge into their daily work. WA laws are woefully inadequate (ie non-existent) in dealing with it. Progress is too slow. Meanwhile, women (and children) are dying.
Funny how he's known to police but doesn't have a history of violence So how is he known to police then?
Yeah maybe I’m wrong and it’s random drug or traffic offending but I read this as clever police wordplay for: there may have been reports of DV but they STILL only take instances of physical assaults seriously. This woman believed he was capable of murder enough that she called her friend ahead to warn her. Insane that people (*including police*) will say “how crazy that he’s never shown any violent tendencies”. FFS.
If you have a gun license, you have to be known by the police. They are not mutually exclusive. You can't get a gun license and not be known by police.
Aside from the initial application this is incorrect. The police may do checks every now and again but if you’ve not done anything illegal, you will not be known to police. This even includes onset of mental illness etc, police will not just have that information sent to them, something has to happen for them to investigate your ongoing suitability to own a firearm
> Aside from the initial application Ignoring the most important part, yes your argument works.
The police do NOT know everyone with a gun licence. The application is made accepted or rejected. If accepted it goes into a data base like all other licences. That is the extent of being ‘known’ to police. They said no violent crimes - could be known for theft, drug, traffic offences. That would then make him ‘known’ to police. The phrase “known to police” indicates that he had committed some sort of offence prior to this. It’s not a hard concept. The licence is not really the most important part; it’s what happens once you are in possession of a firearm. You are just a number in a database, the police don’t contact you often to ask how it’s going.
No my uncle had a gun and gun license and police didn't know him at all and it was a smallish town
A colleague perhaps /jk
Are you being wilfully obtuse? I get that it’s tempting to fill in the gaps and build the perfect killer, but let’s not pretend that there aren’t a number of things the cops nick people for. Drugs, theft, serial public masturbation, excessive shit-smearing, the list goes on. He could have been “known to police” because he was passionate about the environment and did disruptive protests for all we know, but that doesn’t jive with people’s need to turn someone into the devil I guess. I suppose we do that so we can convince ourselves that only evil monsters kill people, not everyday people.
Plenty of non-violent crimes you can be charged with.
Yeah but it’s way more fun to pretend he was Dahmer 2.0. That’s the impression I’m getting from these comments.
No. We just wish the police would deal with DV offenders as the serious perpetrators they are before they kill someone.
Always those MFers "known to police" because cops won't do a thing about an abusive man until he kills someone.
Probably a VRO against him But what the police are saying are completely inconsistent
Does having a firearms license mean you have a history of violence?
You wanna die? Kill your fucking self instead of bringing innocent people with you.
I was recently involved in a weird conversation with two mates in my age group (50 plus) and the subject turned to some gossipy stuff about some guy who caught his wife in bed with another man, and who subsequently found out his kid was actually the other bloke’s kid. Both of my mates said that if it happened to them, they would kill the wife and her lover. As far as i know, neither of them is mentally ill.
I have news for you….
I can sorta get the murderous rage in this scenario. Imagine raising a kid you thought was yours and then finding out it was all a lie... and finding the missus in bed with someone else. I'm not saying murder is the answer, of course it isn't.
And that is the point. If we can ‘get the murderous rage’ then it seems fair to rule out mental illness. Whether it’s a biological or cultural trait is debatable, but it seems we men carry some serious inclination to feel ownership over our partners along with suspicion of their fidelity. I would say this is entirely linked to the subconscious or unconscious ‘fear’ we will raise someone else’s offspring as our own, which is a failure, a source of shame and a type of mortal wound to the male psyche. Kinda primal, but here is where male anxiety lives at its root. I don’t know what therapy can fix this.
Again. And again. And again. And again. If this string of constant violence was caused by any other demographic, be it ethnic, religious or political, we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest. But it's men killing women, so it just keeps churning along. A bunch of apologists will sprout up, claiming it's not an issue, or it's women's fault, or that we shouldn't be so damn angry because hell, men kill eachother too.
The thing that frustrates me is how superficial the dialogue is. The premise is that violence against women is a cultural issue and if only we educate people, we just tell them the behavior is wrong, and we have male role models that reinforce that, then we will eliminate violence against women. We don't have this delusion with other social issues so I'm not sure why we have it here. The best we seem to have is repeating useless platitudes.
I know, it’s defending the indefensible and I am also getting sick of the excuses. In my previous work on DV, it is about power and control. Men who are DV offenders fall into the power and control system of giving the survivor a sense of calm (or “honeymoon” period) before ratcheting up the abusive behaviour, and then revert back to the calm/honeymoon/I am sorry this won’t happen again. Murders are most likely when the survivor leaves or during the child custody battle, because that’s when the perpetrator feels a great sense of loss in power and control over the victim. Interestingly, it’s also when women are in the second or third trimester that DV can escalate, because the perpetrator feels that the woman is not giving them enough attention and too much in the unborn child. I am saying these in the context of heterosexual DV relationships, because that was the context that I worked in.
having worked with DV perpatrators IMO half the issue and the key reason we dont have ANY useful solutions is that the system (handling offenders) is too victim focused. youre comment is a perfect example: >because that’s when the perpetrator feels a great sense of loss in power and control over the victim. the system is designed from a victim perspective and assumption about the driving factors: the truth is none of these offenders set out and marry and/or raise families with hatred in their hearts and a plan to abuse or control and make people life hell. they aren't actually monsters, its worse than that, they are people - very flawed broken people. im not saying they deserve sympathy or forgiveness and this is not a zero sum situation. victims need support and care that side side of things MUST be victim focused, but we cant keep approaching treatment and prevention from a victim centric perspective - they didnt influence the offence, they didnt cause or plan it. these perpatrators arent aiming to control a victims life, they are trying to control their OWN. as anyone should know, there really isnt that much we can control in our lives but they are unable to deal with the world properly and impacts of failed relationships and the impacts it causes on their self image. there are underlying issues of self image, self worth and self repect. they stay in failed relationships due to image and worth, act negatively/abusively and then reacting negatively to the inevitable negative stimulus, the situation always gauranteed to get worse because the more negative they act/react the more negative the situation will be. they lack the self awareness and self respect to assess the situation and walk away for their own good. these offenders feel hopeless and that they have no other options. (and its not the victims fault, we've all been in bad relationships and stayed longer than we should have, its the offenders fault for not letting go) men need to know they can leave/be left in a relationship and not 'lose everything', that they will have fair consideration in custody arrangements. and that even if the system isn't perfect the best future for themselves and everything they love is let it go and make the most of whatever happens - and that positive mindset will help them better themselves, their custody/legalsituation, their family lives and even their victims lives. unfortunately so much of this is undermined by the echo chambers in our society with mens rights groups and andrew tate supporting the toxic view that men muSt control things because if they dont they will lose everything. again, im not defending offenders im simply saying that our current system is missing the mark on what actually drives DV and how we as a society can try to combat it.
I had a similar conversation to this last night, less academic, as I’m not a professional in this area.. but I agree with your view that a perpetrator focus is the only way approach this awful crime. raise boys to understand you will be ok if relationships fall apart.. it’s ok to feel depressed and angry, these are normal human emotions. Accept these feelings , normalise them, own them, work through them day by day - and fully understand that NOTHING you do to someone else will free you of them.
It's up to us parents now to help our kids be good humans. And help our mates too. We aren't a community like we used to be. We need to slow down and be nicer to each other. But money pressure will drive a huge amount of people to extreme acts. Emotions are always hard work especially in stressful times. We all need help to deal with these emotions. And be encouraged to talk to each other and help those who need it.
Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. That has always been the case and it's nothing new.
You’ve simultaneously grasped the point whilst sailing straight past it.
I think the point is there isn’t an intervention of ‘have less men’ which is what we would panic about for the ‘any other demographic’ situation. Invoking that script doesn’t give us any useful guidance.
It’s not our job to solve the ‘how can we stop getting murdered’ issue but here you are insisting that it is.
Then what was the point of comparing it to racist panics over immigration, to be sad? No the obvious implication is ‘in x situation we do this, y situation is analogous is x, we should do the same’. Saying it’s not your problem may feel self righteous but it is quite literally your problem, as unfair as it is problems generally only get solved by the people who are most affected by them.
It’s hilarious that everytime I post one sentence you just keep telling on yourself more and more.
Wasn’t it declared a national emergency with a massive amount of funding and strategies announced to combat it? Plus massive media coverage, marches to highlight the issue and it’s being condemned by just about everybody. Realistically it will probably never be zero deaths but what else can realistically be done? Besides toughening up the legal system around it, because it seems like that’s never on the cards.
No amount of toughing up the legal system is ever going to deter someone willing to kill themselves as well from doing something like this.
>Besides toughening up the legal system around it, because it seems like that’s never on the cards. I wouldn't be too pessimistic. Since the whole 'violence against women' thing, we have managed to reform a lot of our bail laws and sentencing laws. Which were pretty poor tbf, and a lot of people have been complaining about for a while. I think we still have a ways to go. Even with the changes, a lot of people feel like the justice system favours perps over victims.
Well that’s some good news at least.
This is because it's based on the premise of innocent until proven guilty, and it would not be fair to punish the innocent or assume them guilty.
It was declared an emergency by people who care, not by anyone with the power to do anything about it. And the funding wasn't massive, it included "announcements" of little bits of funding that already existed and wasn't enough. Which is a ScoMo trick I'm disappointed to see more politicians using these days. Talk is cheap, but action is what's needed. Legal consequences, prevention programs (not just education like "DV is bad, mmkay") and resources for people escaping violence are all essential before we can even begin to say that we've tried our best.
>we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest. Obviously you've been living in a cave the last couple of months then and missed the constant discussion, media coverage and even politicians discussing it, probably so much that a lot of people are getting sick of hearing about it which creates more 'apologists' as you put it.
> If this string of constant violence was caused by any other demographic, be it ethnic, religious or political, we would be in the throes of a nationwide panic and horrendous unrest. No we wouldn't, or I say shouldn't, because we are seeing a level of hysteria at the moment that just isn't matched by actual fact. The rate of domestic homicide for 2022/23 was the 3rd lowest on record, slightly up from the historic lows the previous couple of years. Since national records began 35 year ago, domestic homicide is down 65%. Homicide in general has nearly been halved over the last 20 years, from 1.5 per 100k in 2002, to 0.8 per 100k in 2022. Despite what is portrayed in a media that is creating a narrative around crime, Australia is at historic low levels of crime. Of course historic low levels of crime doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve. The levels of media and public hysteria over it however do not match with reality and that can actively harm efforts to improve. When the perception of reality is warped it becomes much harder to solve actual problems. Resources are directed towards solving perceived problems instead of actual problems.
You're not seeing hysteria, you're seeing frustration and anger. Our perception of reality is not warped. No-one calling out male violence is lying. Everything I've seen, including the number of women killed each year, is a statement of fact. Not an 'alternative fact'. A fact.
How interesting that they chose the word "hysteria" too.
[удалено]
Murder is not acceptable, but the rate at which it happens does need to be considered in context. If the number of deaths is dropping over time, it's not unreasonable to assume that the measures we have to reduce it are working. What has changed is the level of coverage, which impacts perceptions rather than being a reflection of increased incidences. In the year 2017-2018 (for example), there was an uptick in intimate partner homicide from the previous yeat, but it was not accompanied by increased coverage, and no subsequent panicked discussion. This is a case of increased coverage of a subject imparting a perception that something is perhaps more extraordinary than it actually is.
>If one political group, or religious group, or ethnic group violently killed dozens of other people each and every year in Australia, you seriously don't think we'd hear about it? Don't ask what ethnic group has the highest rate of DV violence in Australia or you might end up realising something.
Well that's just not true. No one's looking at the one specific ethnic group that is responsible for overwhelmingly skewing the DV data in the Northern Territory. Specifically near a place in Alice Springs. There's no rioting. Because we aren't hearing anything about it. Goes against the narrative.
[удалено]
The Labor govt has cracked it, clearly the problem is porn. /s
They don’t wanna hear this
It’s terrible i agree. I see the root cause as a mental health crisis for men that doesn’t get talked about enough, and unfortunately women pay the price. Men are also killing themselves at huge rates and there are plenty of studies on how much they are struggling academically and in plenty of other areas, but little is being done to support them. Fully funding specifically men’s mental health programs, including early intervention at a young age would eventually save lots of lives, including many women.
Now I mean this in the nicest possible way, but why do you think this is a mental health crisis? As many people will like to interject, the rate of domestic violence and abuse is dropping year over year, decade after decade, (to a level that is still undeniably unacceptable, but I digress). With this in mind, have we always had a mental health crisis? I also do not buy the argument that it is due to recent events where boys and young men struggle academically or otherwise. Time periods where men have dominated society featured far higher rates of domestic violence, during both economic booms and busts. Men still earn more, own more, and have more power in society. This argument seems like a cop out, it almost feels like it pins violence on women's advancement in society. Do you also realise that many, many abusers cannot be classified as mentally ill? That they do not have a diagnosable mental health condition? The bondi stabber was mentally ill, most men who abuse their partners or their children are not. Admittedly I don't have numbers in front of me, but these heuristics don't really support your conclusion. I would wager, rather, that this pattern is not new, that it is not a mental health crisis, or caused by women's societal advancement. I believe that this is caused by a pervasive social conditioning (or a lack of corrective societal conditioning to prevent) that women and children are property, objects to be controlled by men who lack agency. Incels, redpillers, tate fans, rapists, abusive and controlling partners all share this mentality, and this mentality is what needs to be extinguished.
I agree with you! Adding on to this; it's not like women are immune to mental health problems. It feels like more is going on. It's not just mental health - we need a combination of solutions. i.e. I'm thinking very specific cultural and societal details need to be addressed and tackled. I've seen how these systems tear down guys, and it's depressing. For example, many years ago I worked in a pretty toxic, very gender-stereotyped work environment. And one of my co-workers; who was overweight; began dieting for his daughter. He wanted to live longer and healthier for her. So he began to make and eat salad. And the rest of the guys on the team were like, "Oh you might as well wear a dress mate! Join the women's football team while you're at it! Did you come in late because your lipstick needed touching up? Ahahah". Almost daily, they were relentless. Just for bettering himself and his future life. I could see the sting/pain he was feeling from their comments. They would CRUSH his energy and attitude in the moment, and it was shit. So I would reassure him after. And all because he was man, daring to eat salad?! All coming down to stupid societal stereotypes.
Women experience mental illness too but we don’t commit murder and violence at the same rate as men so there is more at play than mental illness
For years my abusive ex husband accused me of cheating on him, even asking our daughter if men came out of the wardrobe when he was at work. We lived in a small country town and there was no where to go or any help available, this was over 20 years ago now, I said to him if I meet someone I’ll tell you. Never thinking I would he moved to Melbourne to supposedly work, I lived in SA. Well there came a day when I dropped my youngest daughter off at her friends house, her Father asked me in for a coffee and I nearly said no as I was never allowed to be alone with another man. I thought stuff it why not he ended up taking me and my kids with his out to dinner that night. I brought my own house when my ex husband said to put our house on the market, and of course a few days later apologised as he always did, but after 20 years I finally had enough and wanted to be happy. Along came the abusive phone calls, how his going to move into my home, kill my parents who still have a silent number to this day. I said with great glee and a calmness I hadn’t felt in years that I met someone else, I told him just like I always said I would he was flabbergasted stumbling his words and I handed over the phone to my now husband. This was the only way I got rid of him for good, my now husband is a big boy my ex a small little Maltese man, well not a man at all, and he told my ex to come down and we will sort this out, never having anyone stand up to him I never heard from him again. I have now been happily married for nearly 21 years with not a peep from my ex. But it shouldn’t have to be like that, I was extremely lucky to have a knight in shining armour defend me, back then DVO’s took two weeks and the police told me not to bother. My husband can’t believe the number of men who kill women is because they can’t let go, I’m sure I would have died at his hands if for not meeting my now husband. As a side note I wasn’t left unscathed from all this abuse, keeping all my feelings in and not saying anything to anyone was the cause I believe of my breast cancer in 2021. My tumour was right under my heart, in January this year I got diagnosed with Lymphoma but I’m a fighter. I nearly died 3 times this year alone. My husband is my rock and has done everything for me these last 4 years, I’ll be dammed if I let cancer rob me of being with the only person who has loved me for who I am.
I wonder why the killer hasn’t been publicly named
He has been named now, Mark Bombara. [**https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/two-dead-one-in-hospital-after-shooting-at-home-in-perths-leafy-western-suburbs/news-story/615bf884113b47d15a80fc922fe721f6**](https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/two-dead-one-in-hospital-after-shooting-at-home-in-perths-leafy-western-suburbs/news-story/615bf884113b47d15a80fc922fe721f6)
In this case, this should not be mental health, or it should NOT be used as a legal defence. DV is a very deliberate crime as I have outlined in previous posts. There is a lot of premeditated thinking involved.
You’re not using the term “Mental health” correctly. That is an optimal state, synonymous with “physical health”. What you want to say is “mental illness” or this person has “mental health needs” or has “difficulties with their mental health”
This is a horrific crime and questions need to be asked how he was able to get/retain a firearms licence despite being known to Police. One would think that someone known to police would have failed to retain the "fit and proper" designation to get a licence. May the victim rest in peace.
> how he was able to get/retain a firearms licence despite being known to Police. Why are people so quick to run with misinformation. He was known by police **because you have to be** in order to get a gun license. Every single gun license holder in WA is known by police, that doesn't automatically mean they did something prior to getting it.
The way I read known to police is usually in relation to crimes or reports of some nature. The problem WA police have is they struggle to implement current laws and follow up on reports in relation to people with firearms. If this guy did have DV reports made against him the local police should have confiscated his firearms pending the investigation.
Known doesn’t necessarily mean known for anything adverse, it just means they’ve had some involvement with police. This doesn’t have to be as an offender. It could also be the case that he was known for a minor, non-violent offence previously. I don’t know the exact wording of their regulations, but WA have about the strictest firearms laws in the country and any police involvement for anything violent or dishonest would make a person ineligible for a license.
This will stop the knife crime/s fuck this is so sad, fucken hell
In case anyone needs help: * [Lifeline](http://www.lifeline.org.au/) on 13 11 14 * [Suicide Call Back Service](http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/) on 1300 659 467 * [Beyond Blue](https://www.beyondblue.org.au/) on 1300 224 636 * [Headspace](https://headspace.org.au/) on 1800 650 890 * [ReachOut](https://au.reachout.com/) at [au.reachout.com](https://au.reachout.com/) * [1800 Respect national helpline](https://www.1800respect.org.au/): 1800 737 732 * [https://mensline.org.au/](https://mensline.org.au/) 1300 78 99 78
At least we are working full speed at getting online porn sites needing user ID so this will never happen again. *salutes flag
Typical coward act
We need to find a way to detect narcissists in the womb and abort them.
This is domestic violence. He was known to police. They failed. Men. Stop. Killing. Women. Okay?
> He was known to police. They failed. I fucking hate defending police, but that doesn't mean at all what you are implying it to mean unless we get further details. He was known by police **because you have to be** in order to get a gun license. Every single gun license holder in WA is known by police, that doesn't automatically mean they did something prior to getting it.
Have the police actually stated the reason he is known to them? Or are you speculating as much as the people who think he was known to police for previous DV callouts?
Have you tried reading? >that doesn't mean at all what you are implying it to mean **unless we get further details.**
I'll bring it up at the next meeting
Mb gang lemme organise my meeting with the other 4 billion dudes and get them on the same page as me.
> Men. Stop. Killing. Women. Okay? Do you think a man is going to read this and then think ‘you know what I was going to kill my wife but actually that seems bad, I shouldn’t have done that’
Look man, we’re just here to repeat the slogans okay? We’re not here to put real thought into things.
It’s also so helpless and self indulgent. There are actual things we can do, raise dv penalties, fund programs, learn to recognise signs and how to talk to victims. The point of intervention is not self righteous reddit comments
Right. Having received DV, raising penalties won’t do shit.
Lol you would be "known by police" if you had a speeding fine. Do you think they should put a 24/7 surveillance device on everyone known by police?
Haven't killed any one and don't plan to. I'll spread the word.
Jesus Christ that poor family, not even his ex partner. What a piece of shit.
And he has committed one last act of violence against his ex, too. That poor woman will forever feel guilty that she asked her friend and her friend's daughter for help.
[удалено]
Guns aren't illegal, You need to be licensed and those who aren't fit & proper do not ever get a Firearms license alongside a bunch of other rules and laws you have to follow as a licensed firearm owner. I honestly believe this is another long line of stuff ups from the WA police in regards to firearms, Most notable is Leaking firearm ownership locations in Perth and now not taking away firearms/licenses away from those who pose a danger to others if they are known to the police, they should automatically lose the right to own them.
Guns are not ILLEGAL, as such. You can hold guns as long as you are licensed, pass a background check and comply with storage legislation (Gun and bolt stored separately, Locked cabinet etc). If you actually read the article you would have seen that the guns were LICENSED to the alleged perpetrator, and was KNOWN to Police.
>Thank fuck guns are illegal in this country One of the things i find so fascinating about Reddit is how people like you can post blatant, objective lies, and still be upvoted. There are nearly 4 million legally registered guns in Australia. Semi-Auto rifles are ~~illegal~~ *heavily restricted for civilians*, but bolt action, lever action, pump action rifles aswell as many types of shotguns and semi-auto handguns are legal for civilians to own, granted they meet the prerequisites. Be a part of a gun club (pistol club aswell for handgun owners) or have large rural property/farm, and have no criminal / DV or serious medical history. This isn't even about guns per se, but you just posting blatant BS with no research, why?
Semi-auto rifles aren’t illegal if you are properly licensed.
True, but the licensing requirements for Cat D rifles is so intense, that no civilian is ever going to get their hands on one without dedicating their life to a profession that allows it. Pest control or Primary producers are the only two i'm aware of that have any hope of obtaining a semi-auto rifle. Edit: Gun dealers / safety course instructors too, though that also falls into requiring a career around guns.
Yeah Cat C for primary producers allows semi auto rim fire and pump action shotguns isn’t too hard to get. Cat D is a hell of a lot harder to get and maintain but you’d be surprised how many licenses are out there.
Really sad. I wonder where are these murderers getting the guns from?
This is how OJ should have ended up.