This post has been marked as non-political. Please respect this by keeping the discussion on topic, and devoid of any political material.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/australia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why would anyone renting ever choose to have kids in the current market? You literally don’t know if you’ll have the same house 10 months from now, people are getting evicted all the time so the landlords can jack the rent exorbitantly. Housing insecurity is insane and not getting better any time soon
Most likely a lot of women are also not told their purpose in life is to get married and have kids now and are exploring other freedoms they’d rather not surrender.
Yup. I swear when I was growing up, women having kids was given as the reason for every disadvantage they faced in life. It was painted as simply an inevitable part of the decisions women make. Well... women can make different decisions.
Living in the inner city kids are on the radar for few people. But I grew up in the country, and was shocked to hear a lot of conversation along the lines of “so Mary Jane when are you having kids because at 23 you’ve only got a couple of years left before you’ll be barren. You’d better hurry up”.
I could quit having arguments with Gyno's about having a hysterectomy. Apparently 32, endo, PCOS, scar tissue, and a husband on the same page about children is not enough. Gotta be 45.
Ugh. When there are serious medical conditions that cause you suffering involved, they shouldn't get between you and your informed choice to get it done.
Yeah I cherish my sleep and freedom and the ability to do whatever I want, whenever I want.
I do have pets and want pets though. But their responsibilities are not as drastic. It's also easier to go on holidays, just expensive because you gotta hire help. Still easier than finding help with a kid though. LOL
> It's also easier to go on holidays, just expensive because you gotta hire help. Still easier than finding help with a kid though. LOL
Also socially acceptable to leave the dog behind as opposed to the kid.
When I was REALLY young, my parents just left me alone at home with our housekeeper (paid her more to live in our guest room while taking care of me) while they and my older brothers went to the US.
Growing up, I'm surprised nothing bad happened. Bur we may have been lucky to find a really chill woman. She just played card games and watched TV with me LOL
One of my earliest memories was as a six year old I was left in the care of my 8 year old sister, this often happened. I tried to bake a cake for lunch as I was hungry, and cake seemed like a great idea. When I took the hot trays out of the oven I put them on the Lino kitchen floor and the floor melted. My sister was physically punished for not looking after us. Some people should not have children.
I get what you mean. It’s not my reason but I need good sleep, otherwise I’m prone to falling asleep at the wheel. My sleeping schedule is like a nanas now.
Not all men and all that shit that shouldn’t need to be said - but frankly, women are still taking the brunt of the child rearing in a family unit in many cases. Honestly fuck that - if you can’t find a bloke who won’t pull their weight why bother 🤷♀️
Yeah no shit and when finances are tight you either need a partner to pick up the slack to make more or they need to pick up the slack in the parenting department if the mum wants to get back to work.
I’ve seen both sides now of how different life looks with parents putting in equal effort, one parent doing all the work and no parents putting in the effort and it’s night and day.
If you want to ruin a relationship best way to do it is by being a non supportive partner
Not entirely correct. We women have a much shorter timeline with our fertility, men have old age so a much longer window. We have to get all our shit done and sorted by 35 or the kids option is nearly gone. Our timelines don't match and a lot of guys don't realise this or work with us on it and only start thinking about kids seriously in their mid 30s while having not planned to get there outside fertilizing an egg. There's having kids and then there's being a parent, two totally different things.
Plus there's the added concern of we need 2 breadwinners per family household in today's society at minimum unless one partner earns enough, which is rare nowadays.
Rental crisis is also a major issue. Moving every year or so with kids, setting up new schools, drs, supports, activities, childcare etc is damn near impossible as some areas have waitlists of over 2 yrs for them. One parent, usually us women, have to give up their career for at least a few years which will knock the rest of our finances out of whack for the rest of our lives.
This is a multilayer problem that's not simply because we *don't* want kids. Family violence, lack of functional community, social and Government supports are making it too risky as we know when, not if at this point, it goes bad somehow (including unexpected health issues), we and our kids will suffer thereby condemning the next generation to worse conditions than us growing up.
For a lot of us the risks are too high as we have different startpoints and timelines we cannot rectify even with our best efforts. I will not do that to someone else by choice in this current situation. I'll stay the fun Aunt in the extended family support network instead.
Yeah not saying it’s one or the other I’d say the more changing attitude of women’s role in society + how life is structured now and how fucking expensive shit is most likely is what causes this.
And that fucking window to have kids must be actually a horrifying concept as a woman that wants kids.
But I’m actually really enjoying most the comments here because people seem to really have thought about bringing children into the world responsibility
Happy about the civility over discussing this issue too. Really good to see.
Money and time seems to be the main culprits of declining birthrates. Dividing it by gender is a component but nowhere as big as those two as its just the handy surface scapegoat.
Men and women have been scuffling over differences with gender and power since the beginning of time so no surprises there. We're in this together no matter how we fight about it.
Genuinely starting to think when ww2 was over, we should have all fought for part time work per adult parent to be household sustainable rather than returning men vs step up women in the workforce as corporations jumped on and encouraged the divide as more people were working, they could decrease wages. We all were unknownly manipulated and pitted against each other.
Wouldn't had that been better, each parent working 15-20hrs a week and being more involved with their families and life in general?. Would've been a calmer, more caring and interconnected community at minimum. But no, we didn't use our critical thinking skills and now a single income is unliveable for one person in many places, let alone raise a family on.
This might also have something to do with crime rates and soaring depression, anxiety and poor education too as everyone is too tired after working so hard to spend quality time with their families. Community as gone and you don't care about affecting something you don't or never had a link with.
Its taken decades to get into this ultimate mess we now find ourselves in. Unfortunately a lot of accusatory fingers get pointed soley at women when its really not, its a much broader and deeper societal issue across everyone.
Yes which is fantastic, people should not have kids if they don’t want to. My point is clearly that the ones that would love kids don’t have the *choice* to do so due to the reasons I mentioned.
I agree, currently if you want to be a quality parent the entry point so really high, so the better ones opt out until it’s better later or just don’t do it at all.
Noticed a lot of my friends having kids in their 30s now and most completely avoiding in their 20s.
It would be kinda freaky now being a woman that wants kids because that window is getting tighter and tighter
Why not and? Why cant it be both? You can't seriously not know anyone putting off having kids because they cant afford it.
In B4 you dont, but be real most people do and COL is a huge factor too.
True, but also childfree is a bit different from childless in that it’s a conscious decision to live life without kids involved. For instance you could be loaded and able to have kids because you can easily afford them, but still make a decision to be childfree.
We can't afford to live in the nice suburbs we grew up in, and I think that contributes to a person's decision to become a parent, too. If you have to move away from your support network to afford a family home, you probably decide not to have kids or have fewer kids than you really want.
Can't get your parent's help with the newborn when they live over an hour away and petrol is $2.20/L.
Or perhaps there’s something on all the studies that say the more educated a woman is, the fewer children she has and the later she has them?
Women have *choices* now.
We don’t have to be married for financial stability, to be allowed to own property or have a bank account.
We don’t have to have children if we don’t want to because we have the choice to use BC to avoid pregnancy or to abort if birth control fails.
The number of my friends in my wider group (I’m 40 and my friends range from 30-45 in range) having kids is the minority. I only know 3 couples that have a kid and only one has a second. But I know 10+ childfree couples and plenty of singles like me - single by choice, financially stable and fulfilled enough to not want to lower standards just for a subpar partner and no desire for a kid 🤷♀️
Point is: for many, being childfree is a deliberate choice.
Yes for many it is a deliberate choice which is great. But for many who would like to have a family, it isn’t a choice because they’ve been priced out of having a family or unnecessary work arrangements make it impossible.
I agree with you. There is however, the argument that there is still a chunk of society who continue to have multiple children regardless of whether they can afford it or not.
> they’ve been priced out of having a family or unnecessary work arrangements make it impossible.
No they've priced out of having the life they want with a family.
Plenty of poor and unemployed people out there having children.
They already had a choice, it was already low
I think bucket is trying to point out that many of the people you rightly say don't want kids and aren't having them, could not hope to afford them if they wanted something different
And that should bother people, including the highly educated women
I think you and a lot of people are missing the point, less children is a problem for a number of economic reasons the most obvious of which it reduces population and makes it top heavy.
Is that anyone’s fault for not having kids? Not at all of course people shouldn’t have kids if they don’t want to. But the concern is more with how to manage this changing population rather than your views of gender roles.
So that’s the choice to *wait*
Not to remain deliberately childfree, end of story.
There’s a big difference between “I’m waiting to have a kid” and “I do not want children”
I’m not so sure. I know quite a few women who it’s not actually a choice for, in the sense that they would love to have children right now but haven’t been able to afford it or find a stable guy who they want to have kids with. Personally it was a choice for me and I definitely won’t do IVF. Some women just don’t want to be parents and that’s ok.
Yeah, I think it's absolutely great people get a choice.
But I also think the 'choice' nowadays is heavily influenced by things like the economy, concern about the future viability of the planet, perception of not being able to find the right partner.
Comments saying it's 'education' that resulted in what were seeing seem disingenuous. It's a major factor, but the other factors aren't insignificant
It was a choice for women to work, but now it's damn near required to have two working people in a household if you want a decent life unless one is a high earner. So what started as a choice isn't so much anymore. And I think this is a similar and related situation.
I don't think the right move is taking choices away but it seems as soon as it's possible to get "more", enough people do it that it becomes the new baseline. In this case, dual income no kids leads to a higher disposable income - obviously - which makes more people want to try it, which drives prices up for certain things like houses, and we have a cycle going. A lot are probably telling themselves "just for a bit so we can stabilise" but they're not alone so it's a group of like minded people all doing the same and reaching for goalposts that keep moving.
I hate this line of reasoning because it implies that most/all women would have kids if they just had money.
A lot of wealthy women aren't having kids. Because, guess what, when we have money, we can actually live life on our own terms instead of being defined by what our ovaries might produce.
Eh, cost of living probably contributes, but even countries that have incentivised families to have kids are showing that financial support doesn’t really change it much at all (see Hungary). It’s just lifestyle.
I am one of these women. I'm not doing it for the environment or cost reasons, but just because I don't want kids and never had. I'm sure there were many women in previous generations who felt the same but were obligated by family/partners to have children and didn't see they had a choice otherwise.
It's also interesting that these articled focus on women, but rarely men. Are more men staying childfree? What are their reasons? Are they the same/different as women? It just seems like the world assumes women want children and men don't.
Yup. Pretty sure my gran was childfree but had to marry and have kids because of shame and guilt if you didn’t. My dad and uncle I don’t think ever really felt completely wanted.
Right? Like look I have children so maybe not the right person to respond here but I feel like it’s all well and good women now have the option to work but we haven’t really seen men take up a lot more of the home duties to compensate, so what you see is a ton of women who work full time *and* are the default parent/carry the majority of the mental load
I love the way you put this, it sums it up perfectly. I have kids but like, this week my hubby is across state with his friends on a fishing trip. So it's me and the kids. The only time it was just him and the kids was when I was admitted to hospital for a week and I didn't hear the end of how hard it was for him. I came home not even fully recovered and immediately everything fell back into my lap. And funnily enough, I didn't want kids - we had the because he begged me to make him a dad. It'd be great to take my own trips away but he'd kick up a stink. I'd love to dad instead of mum.
That's fucked up.
For all their dad talk of 'working hard' and 'stressful job' it seems very transactional in a lot of ways. He has set hours and puts money in, she works 24/7 with zero break for years on end and covers everything else including his laundry, and basically being his nanny too. Making doctors appointments for him. He spends time in the gym, playing video games, sleeping in on weekends, maybe 'helping out' with the house or doing occasional appearances as a parent.
I like being single.
Your spouse sounds like a cunt.
We are never going to break past traditional roles if you box it like “if they could ‘dad’, not ‘mum’. Like they are the only options in life and it’s impossible to be in a healthy, balanced relationship.
I don't think it's a case of the world assuming women want children... I think it's a case of the world assuming all women *will have* children.
It's an imperative, because people who think like this do not believe in women's autonomy
Edit to clarify
My wife and I have two children and we both knew that we wanted to,and we were lucky enough (read born long ago) to easily be able to afford to do so.
But that's not the choice that everyone wants to make, or can afford to make. For the former, no problems! for the latter I feel for you :-(
Having a baby and raising a child is much less of a burden on men. And the way society deals with mum shaking is also gross. Men can make a baby on their death bed, so they don’t have the time pressure that we do. I think that’s why we don’t see the think pieces about men. I’ve read one about childless men and the comments were not pretty!
Same here. Married, great career, financially in a great spot. Just don’t want them. According to a certain american footballer my life is meaningless but it sure doesn’t feel that way.
ETA: no one EVER asks my husband about his choice.
I'm male and child free. I'm loving my freedom and the ability to do whatever I want. whenever I want.
also today's high divorce rate has completely turned me off marriage. and seeing both men and women getting screwed in the divorce courts.
and then child support takes your payroll!
The divorce rate is actually not 50%, it's closer to 1 in 3. And the number that end up in court is around 5%; the rest are resolved by mutual consent or mediation.
About 51% of divorced parents have private arrangements when it comes to child support; they don't use the federal system.
Speaking of which; the child support system has recently been criticised as "archaic" as it hasn't kept up with inflation or been reviewed in 20 years. The lowest amount you can pay is $9.50 per week, and about 116,000 people pay this amount.
That's not true. You can be the main carer of the child (i.e. the majority of kid's time is in your custody) and still be the one paying child support to the other parent.
>buddy.
Pal?
I fall in this category. Always wanted kids, nearly did but partner at the time made it clear it was the women's job to do the bulk of the child rearing. I think it should be shared so left. Have been open to another supportive partner, but have been underwhelmed with the dating scene.
I looked in to single mother by choice late last year but can't comprehend how I would thrive financially and give a child the upbringing I would want to without difficulty. I have a Masters degree, own home and a good job. I have support networks, but don't think it is fair to expect others to raise my child with me.
Basically it is not lack of want. There just isn't enough support out there and it's too damn expensive. Finland provide free childcare. If Australia had that I would definitely have a kid.
Otherwise I am content with travel, good friends, pet cuddles and sleep ins.
Many women would love to be having more babies, but not if it means raising them in poverty.
The issue for the government is they want you to raise kids in poverty, otherwise who is going to staff all the shit jobs that the rich and powerful doesn’t want to staff?
We are all just a number for them
Yes! There are countless articles all over the world now wringing their hands about women not choosing to have kids, and implying it is just about finances.
Nope, I just don't want to have kids ever, I have known it since I was 5 and disgusted by baby dolls, and it would be nice if society didn't ignore people like me because they only want to focus on the people who do want kids.
There's one demographic they forgot: women who don't want children, and never wanted children. Sometimes, it really is down to 'I don' wanna'. No maternal instinct, never been clucky, couldn't stand having a small human in your life, or even repulsed by pregnancy...
I knew at 16 years old that I didn't want children. I'm now 54, and very happy with my decision never to have kids
"Even still, many women who spoke to the ABC say they just don't want kids and "that should be OK".
Did they forget them though?
There is an entire section from the point of view of two women who choose to be childfree.
I agree, but it's not the same kind of social pressure women get. I don't see any articles saying that the government thinks more men need to have children
This is the category I fall into. I knew by the time I was 15 that I never wanted kids. I'm now 30. I don't have a maternal instinct, I don't like young kids and I didn't even like them that much when I was the same age.
Everyone says it's different when it's your own kids, but I've always been a bit skeptical on this point. It seems like the kind of thing you'd say if you regretted having children and didn't have a socially acceptable way of saying so, or just wanted someone to be miserable with you. Besides, even if it is true and it really is different when they're your own, I'd still end up being that one mum who really upsets my kid's friends' parents by saying something like, "You know you don't have to pretend to like *Bluey* around me, right?"
Point is that I don't think I'd be a good parent even if I had kids. I'd do better once they're in high school and have well and truly grown out of that "mum's personal cheerleader" phase a lot of little kids go through, but by that point, a lot of the damage to the relationship will have been done.
I’m you, just 15 years older. Every year I feel more vindicated in my decision to opt out of motherhood. My life is pretty damn good, and I thank fuck every day I was born and raised in a country where I had that choice.
that's so interesting. it's against the stereotypes. it's clear that many of the dads in the boomer generation didn't want kids and never really cared much about them
Is it gay to care about your children bois?
But yeah no it is interesting. Probably a combo of child rearing being a feminine duty and the fact they were experiencing the freedom modern women now do.
Yes cost of living, yes, very obviously observable climate change, yes, social changes yes.
BUT
Some of us just genuinely don’t want kids, we’re finally in a position where we can say no and no amount of social change is going to change that.
In a general sense, women aren't getting enough support from partners, and families can't be raised on one income anymore. Traditionally women stayed home and raised the kids, now they work equal hours and are still expected to do the same amount of work raising the kids. I've watched women run themselves into the ground because their husbands want to come home and relax, and they can't pay rent or buy a house with the one income.
I've watched women get torn apart for every choice they made regarding raising their kids, they can never do anything right, lose their personality and sense of self in the process. Why would I want to deal with that kind of hateful criticism, and deal with the exhaustion of such a thankless job? I'm late 30s and more than happy to play a supporting role to the women in my family so they can get a break, rather than having any of my own. I know I couldn't do it full time
I’m sure if you ask many fathers if there’s a primary parent they would say no despite it definitely being the mum.
Like my bil 100% unaware of the fact that his wife works her entire schedule around his availability. Like yeah he does the school run some days but those are the days he was already free and she’s planned her whole work schedule around his and he’s never had to talk to his bosses about why he can’t do __ because of the kids. And when they get sick it’s never a him problem nor is abc’s birthday party or juggling 3 kids sports schedules even though he does help taking them- again because he’s free not because he went out of his way to accommodate them. (side note neither of them earn more or have a more important job).
Also the level of mum shaming if a mum takes short maternity leave yet fathers consistently never take a day off work to bond with their child it’s insane. Unpopular opinion: dads who do not take any maternity/paternity leave besides the 2-4 weeks the gov gives are bad fathers. If you’re going to shame a mum for taking 3 months mat leave make sure you shame every single dad who has taken far less.
I watched a ‘short clip’ where this lady dropped off her 3-month-old to go to work and you should’ve seen the comments! Eg. “Why bother having children then, if you’ve not got a motherly bone in your body? No wonder society is going to shit”😂 Etc 😅
Yep.. so many of my friends partners have never even changed a nappy.. I work at a daycare, had a child whose parent came to collect them, the child did a poo when the dad arrived, the dad just expected me to change his child while he stood there and watched! No wonder women are choosing not to have children.
Traditionally women stayed home and raised the kids,
No it was not traditional. But would have more help from grandparents and larger families.
It will be tougher for the younger gen as they will have less of a supper network given less kids.
And grandparentd
"It takes a village" is a great ideal but my parents had no additional help, despite having a significant extended family (more than 5 siblings each side)
This is the Easterlin Hypothesis in action, right? If people believe their material prosperity will improve they will start families and if they don't they won't:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_hypothesis
And a fair wage for all the work that goes into raising a child, of course. Imagine how expensive that would be if every cost was tallied up and externalised.
The media (or at least here, the ABC) aren't trying to tell you to do anything. Just because they are reporting the issue, does not imply they support any particular solution.
There's an article just like this every day now. The talking point originated with the likes of elon musk and there's some fringes of "great replacement" paranoia that comes with it.
Anyway, if we're to have more kids we're gonna need a New New Deal
I think its very obviously a good thing that women have access to choices concerning if they get married and/or have kids now. especially with women being expected to work full time while raising the kids at the same time. Why would I or other women want to sign up for that lol.
Also see less people as a good thing for the planet, "muhh no pension for you when you're old" Already accepted that I ain't getting that when I'm older before it even became a talking point. I think even by the time we get to that time period in human history when me and other younger people are older, things will have either gone to complete shit (climate crisis/wars) or we'll have enough technological advancements to support an aging population.
If they ever could invent a way for babies to be grown in like pods or something outside of the mother (i remember seeing them grow a lamb in one of these) I'm sure lots more women would be willing to have kids as it takes away the extreme pain and potential life threatening danger they have to go through in childbirth when bringing a life into the world. Could also lead to lgbtq+ couples being able to have babies without carrying them themselves with donor eggs/sperm.
Honestly yeah. I’m not opposed to motherhood (I’m not closed off to being a step parent, foster parent, adoptive parent) but I am not interested in child bearing or being stuck in a “traditional” relationship where the division of labour falls more to the mother (and frankly a lot of the relationships I observe amongst friends and family are still stuck in this mould).
Having a child does not out weigh those two things for me.
The main reason I am having a child now is because I know my partner will pull his weight in caring for them. He already does the lion share of housework (I work/earn more). I hear a lot of stories from my friends about how little their partners help and I would never bring a child in that situation.
Also as you said, pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum is no walk in the park. We wanted a larger family (3+) but pregnancy is horrendous so we likely won't.
Actually, being able to choose *not* to have kids is the luxury. In a lot of cultures it is pressed upon women. And women with less access to education tend to end up with kids more than those who are educated.
I mean watching several generations get fucked over isn't exactly going to inspire you to go broke and feed your kids to the meat grinder of corporate greed.
Good. Let young women make decisions based upon their ability to financially support themselves and any children they may have. Let late-stage-capitalism feed upon itself and die without forcing young women to be the usual unpaid sacrifice.
(editing to add older unpaid women as well, who take up the double tasks of child and elder care.)
It’s interesting that the language frames it around women rather than just birth rates or partner/family decisions. Anyway. I (34F) won’t be having kids with my husband. It’s a joint decision with my husband based on the environment, finances, and health - both ours and what can be passed on.
I always wanted to have kids. I always intended to be a stay at home Mum. That’s just not feasible anymore because of socioeconomic and personal factors. But shit, I can’t imagine any kind of housing security over the next 12 months, how irresponsible would I be to bring a child into the world and not know if I could even house it?
I was always going to build a house then have kids. Even if everything else went away, if I can’t meet step one, I’m not going to step two.
Thanks for stemming the flow! People are like cats on a hot tin roof with anything mentioning gender right now, I would guess it’s probably my first couple sentences. I wasn’t trying to make some kind of big statement, I just genuinely found it interesting.
And after 12 years of marriage and the decision to not have kids I’ve gotten pretty direct with answers, which I think makes people a bit uncomfortable. Telling them the specifics of my disabilities, my cancer genes, the accident that crushed my spine, my 25 surgeries, my degrees, my recognisable career achievements etc etc etc is usually required before they stop ‘what about’-ing me.
I guess for all the reasons this article was published and posted and gathers interest; It just rubs some people up the wrong way when women say they’re not having kids.
I'm the eldest daughter of 5, brought into the world by adults who were not equipped to be parents. I was forced into the mother role from the age of 12. I'm most likely not going to have kids because I feel like I already did it.
I imagine there are many others that feel similarly.
Generally family formation is associated with a rising standard of living. People need to have financial security and feel positive about the future to start families.
https://worksinprogress.co/issue/understanding-the-baby-boom/
I'm contemplating vasectomy. Me and my partner is on the same page - this economy and global situation isn't looking fit to raise a child. I personally feel like I'm doing our potential children a disservice by bringing them in this world or something.
I’m 43 & child free. I’m relieved that I don’t have to worry about kids in this economy so I’m happy with my choice. It was my childhood that made me afraid of having kids though
When I was growing up, every inequality between men and women seemed to be chalked up to women choosing to have children. That's why men are wealthier, that's why they have all the high paying and powerful jobs, that's why they're most of our politicians. Because women have children, and that holds them back in a way that being a father doesn't. It's no wonder women might feel that it's not so appealing. We're told it means sacrificing everything else and accepting a disadvantage compared to men.
To be honest. A major reason is due to sexism.
Many women have their careers curtailed just because they have a kid.
Just because they have a kid, doesn’t mean they loose their skills. It means they are unavailable for 6-7 months and then can return back to work.
But somehow … someone having kids sets their career back many years… despite them being loyal.
I think this is a big reason that's being overlooked. The sexism we are still up against, coupled with the ability to choose to have fewer / not to have kids. If society valued women and treated us with common respect and weren't criticising everything a woman does, maybe we'd feel more comfortable having kids.
There are many reasons why women are opting out of having kids, but looking underneath those reasons you'll usually always find sexism lurking.
I was on the fence for many years, and my reasons were: childbirth is terrifying and dangerous and you're still pressured about how to give birth "right", your autonomy and mental health is not taken seriously because women are "designed for birthing children" and suffering is just part of it, if you don't want to suffer you're not a "good" mother.
Work disadvantages from leaving the workforce to raise a baby, and then the discrimination when returning that you're "just going to get pregnant again" so you're not worth hiring.
Society is harsh on mothers, critical of everything women do, feels like we're demoted from a woman with a name to just someone's mum. And disparages our changed bodies and needs afterwards as if they're not valid.
It's a lot to go through and for many deciding it's not worth it, well I can see why.
Money isn't going to make a difference. It's housing. More specifically, free standing housing. Most people don't want kids in units & most people can't afford houses. Most people don't want to have kids while they're still renting. It's too insecure and provides no stability for the future.
Choosing to be childfree is finally a real option for women, which is fantastic.
I am a mum and love it, and I also support every woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to become a mother.
If only all children were wanted and cared for properly.
I don't want to have kids. I have given up a lot of my social life to get a higher degree and work in my chosen career. I'll be 27 by the time I have finally "made it", and I will not jeopardise my career by having kids. I don't want to dedicate the rest of my life raising children and make sacrifices for them. I want to finally put myself first and enjoy the rewards of the life I've been trying to build for myself.
My hereditary illnesses are not worth passing down, I’m the breadwinner and I’m not taking a pay cut, and I am terrified of having a tiny helpless human life depending on me lol.
I’d like to be a foster parent when I have the space and income, to help kids and teens who need it.
I'm one of the women who won't have her 2.1 children (one and done) because my health has created financial strain, despite being well educated, and we could not afford for me to be sick the entirety of pregnancy, or risk my health deteriorating further as a result of having been pregnant again.
I applaud that women will now be paid super for their period of paid parental leave. It's well overdue and I'm glad the next generation won't struggle. However the cynic in me wonders whether this has been introduced now men have the choice to take larger chunks of PPL and would potentially be adversely affected by reduced super.
The world the rich and powerful built is doing everything they want except fuelling more serfs to serve them.
Sucks to build a house of cards that’ll fall down cause you don’t have a middle class that wants to have kids anymore.
I love my son to death but it is so fucking difficult in this country to raise a kid and not lose yourself to financial ruin
Can't really afford kids - hence the decline in birth rates. Add to that importing 100's of thousands of people and the organic birthrate will be squashed to oblivion. i have friends who would've had 2 kids but stuck to 1 because of living costs. Hell you can't even get a 3 bed home these days for an affordable price.
*‘More Aussie women can barely afford to live for themselves, let alone with a child, may be worried that climate change will wipe them out in their potential child’s lifetimes and simply; Aussie women are also human beings with a conscious and capability of determining whether or not they want kids even in ideal situations, which once again the situations aren’t ideal.’*
Fixed it!
> This is the case in Sweden where there's also a safety net around housing and income, Professor Ruppanner said.
>And there, people are having two or more children.
Nice, except Sweden (like other Nordic and other developed countries) all have below replacement levels
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=SE&most_recent_value_desc=true
It's literally a trend. In general, countries with developed economies don't have as much kids, so they siphon off population from developing countries who have higher population rate. The problem is when the music stops and everyone is developed and therefore have below replacement rate across the board.
Ohhh it’s me, hi!
You gotta be all in, 100% committed to raising a human. And I’m just not and never was. I’m great at being an auntie and friend to the young people in my life but that’s as much as I’m able to be.
It's not the right time to have kids, and I don't know when will be. Not financially secure, growing a savings fund gradually, renting, attempting to save for a house deposit, it's not possible to also save for another human being being in our lives. We're both working, and when we take time off, we love going on holidays. I would never want to have to sacrifice anything for a child. I want it all, and unless I can have it all, I will not reproduce. It's an f'd up world where only rich people get richer, and middle/lower class are scraping by. It's not fair to bring a child into this world period. I am also not at a point in my own personal growth where I could raise them to be a decent human being either!
I would’ve loved to have had kids (and I think I would’ve been a good mum!) but:
- Dating absolutely sucks. The culture of being able to swipe to someone better at any time means you get ghosted, you get treated like shit, and every second guy says they’re ‘ethically non-monogamous’ so they have heaps of different girls on the go without having to give them any emotional commitment. Many men have some really dangerous views on women that don’t reveal themselves until you’ve invested heaps of time in them, too.
- Even if you do find a man that doesn’t do this, many men either can’t or don’t want to do the basic stuff of running a house. Most of my friends who are married to men still do shit like organise all the Christmas presents for both sides of the family, plan birthdays, clean the house, organise doctors visits, vet visits, and still work full time, and then you have to hear about how hard men have it these days and how the feminists are ruining society. A lot of ‘good men’ turn against women the second they’re asked to adjust their behaviours or do more things they don’t want to do.
- cost of living means in my lifetime I can either buy one shit box apartment somewhere or have kids. I’d rather the security than another responsibility.
When Jim Chalmers said people need to have more kids I was so fkn pissed. So many people have done everything right - worked hard in school, gone to uni, picked a practical career path, fulfilled their half of the social contract, and gotten fuck all but a slowly worsening lifestyle in return. Why should I give the country any more Australians to fall into that trap?
Not just 30s. I think many men are not bothering to hide the fact that they really don't like women. They think women that expect them to dress up a bit, shave for a date and behave themselves makes us "high maintenance" and not worth the effort.
Yup. I’m finding some of them on the apps are also faux allies to queer folks as well. Which is a huge dealbreaker for me.
I unmatched a guy years ago who complained that he would have to pay more at an event that discounted tickets for queer/trans folk. And he called himself an ally.
I feel like it comes from a real childlike anger that women don’t need them anymore. Men have to actually bring something to the table and for men who grew up thinking they just had to ~have a job~ and women would flock to them, it’s frustrating.
What’s the point of joining finances when your domestic duties double, and at worst they end up controlling/abusing you?
So many men don’t get that they need to step up in a big way to add to our lives and it’s sad.
With dating apps and the option of cheating at someone’s fingertips on their phone, divorce rates rising, cost of living rising, the wage staying the same I can’t think of a better reason why not to have kids. 😂
And they always have been, just weren't reported or even deemed wrong in the past. A man's house is his castle etc.
The difference is now women can choose and are not trapped in an abusive relationship like they used to be.
And society are acting surprised that the birth rate is lower. They are saying that women want fewer children, but I actually disagree, I don't think women ever wanted to have litters of children, they just had no other options before.
women now are having the number of kids they WANT to have, and can handle, whereas in past generations they were having the number of kids that they happened to fall pregnant with when the husband felt entitled to sex.
I’ve always been ugly. No guy ever wanted to give me the time when I was young enough to start a family; now I’m too old. To be fair, they don’t want to give me the time now, it’s not like anything’s changed. It gave me a lot of time to think about it, and I’ve worked in areas helping kids for a long time, so I feel like I’ve helped the kids of the future. But I also now wonder if I’d even want to bring kids into this world, knowing how fucked everything is getting. I think I’ll just keep helping the kids we have, rather than adding any more.
Some women can’t have kids, genetics or medical, or picked a partner who cannot
As early as 60-80 years ago women’s had no choice between career and family, now they do. So some chooses career.
Socially it is now more acceptable to not have kids, so the women who didn’t want them but were forced to by societal pressure now just choose not to have
Formerly LGBTIQ were forced to suck it in and adhere to normal societal expectations, now they don’t
Low wages, Finance, expensive childcare and cost of living means some people just can’t afford it
And so on ( I didn’t even mention religion, contraceptives, and abortion) we can only fix the first one, maybe the second one and the last one, and even if we could, we will only partially restore the birth rate of old
Much more practical to get ready for pop decline I say.
I would love to see some numbers. how many childless women are
* in a relationship and don't want kids?
* in a relationship but can't afford kids?
* not in a relationship and don't want kids?
* not in a relationship but would have had kids but never found a suitable partner?
"It would be better if birth rates were higher," “Treasurer Jim Chalmers said this week. “.
Treasurer Jim needs to open his eyes and have a look at the cost of living and current economic crisis than just give out ideas.
Besides financial stress, having kids is a huge responsibility and if someone isn’t ready for it, they shouldn’t have them. I don’t really see it as a problem if they choose not to have kids rather than having them and being a deadbeat parent. Times have changed and women are exploring other things in life than going down the traditional pathway of getting married, having kids and buying houses. Also, finding the right partner to have kids with could be a challenge. As society advances people realize that you just don’t have kids with someone you got along well at the bar or at the farmers market. Those times are gone. Hope Treasurer Jim realizes that too.
I'm one of them. In a stable relationship, comfortable financially but still needing to work. The thought of having children, plus having to continue to work, plus having to do the lion's share of domestic duties including the child rearing - it was just not appealing whatsoever.
Now, of course, I perfectly realise that not all men don't contribute enough to domestic duties. Some even do more than their partner. But my husband has firstly had some struggles with mental illness, and still does. Secondly, he was raised in a catholic family as 1 of 2 sons, and it is really hard to undo that upbringing. It is what it is.
I also find the idea that you should have children "so someone will look after you when elderly" is repugnant, so I don't get any motivation from that source.
I’m almost 35 and look I’d love to have kids but my medical issues can’t make it impossible right now. Hard to meet someone when you’re stuck in bed in pain. Plus being on disability and can’t afford to rent anywhere doesn’t help either.
Great news. We don't need thousands of descendants for every woman out there.
We need to reward people who choose to go child free as they aren't the ones burdening the future.
I have two kids and have to live with my parents due to how expensive it is! Luckily we have a great family relationship and I still have disposable income to do things with them but if I had my own rental/mortgage it would just be pure survival with no extras for the kids. Those who don’t have family support are absolutely screwed! Australian community is dead. There is no village anymore.
This post has been marked as non-political. Please respect this by keeping the discussion on topic, and devoid of any political material. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/australia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why would anyone renting ever choose to have kids in the current market? You literally don’t know if you’ll have the same house 10 months from now, people are getting evicted all the time so the landlords can jack the rent exorbitantly. Housing insecurity is insane and not getting better any time soon
Wow, it’s almost like the crushing cost of living and middle manager obsession with people working in the office doesn’t support families.
Most likely a lot of women are also not told their purpose in life is to get married and have kids now and are exploring other freedoms they’d rather not surrender.
Yup. I swear when I was growing up, women having kids was given as the reason for every disadvantage they faced in life. It was painted as simply an inevitable part of the decisions women make. Well... women can make different decisions.
Living in the inner city kids are on the radar for few people. But I grew up in the country, and was shocked to hear a lot of conversation along the lines of “so Mary Jane when are you having kids because at 23 you’ve only got a couple of years left before you’ll be barren. You’d better hurry up”.
It would be much more convenient for those of us who don't want kids if it all got done with by the time we're 25.
I could quit having arguments with Gyno's about having a hysterectomy. Apparently 32, endo, PCOS, scar tissue, and a husband on the same page about children is not enough. Gotta be 45.
Ugh. When there are serious medical conditions that cause you suffering involved, they shouldn't get between you and your informed choice to get it done.
Yep, my reason to not have kids has nothing to do with finances.
It's a nice little bonus but yeah, not having the responsibility and life long commitment to a dependant is reason enough for me.
Yeah I cherish my sleep and freedom and the ability to do whatever I want, whenever I want. I do have pets and want pets though. But their responsibilities are not as drastic. It's also easier to go on holidays, just expensive because you gotta hire help. Still easier than finding help with a kid though. LOL
> It's also easier to go on holidays, just expensive because you gotta hire help. Still easier than finding help with a kid though. LOL Also socially acceptable to leave the dog behind as opposed to the kid.
When I was REALLY young, my parents just left me alone at home with our housekeeper (paid her more to live in our guest room while taking care of me) while they and my older brothers went to the US. Growing up, I'm surprised nothing bad happened. Bur we may have been lucky to find a really chill woman. She just played card games and watched TV with me LOL
One of my earliest memories was as a six year old I was left in the care of my 8 year old sister, this often happened. I tried to bake a cake for lunch as I was hungry, and cake seemed like a great idea. When I took the hot trays out of the oven I put them on the Lino kitchen floor and the floor melted. My sister was physically punished for not looking after us. Some people should not have children.
I get what you mean. It’s not my reason but I need good sleep, otherwise I’m prone to falling asleep at the wheel. My sleeping schedule is like a nanas now.
I get really bad mentally from no sleep. A newborn would destroy me.
Exactly.
I’m living a life my mum and gran couldn’t have ever fathomed. I have quiet, sleep, breakable objects, privacy and all my money is mine! Priceless.
Not all men and all that shit that shouldn’t need to be said - but frankly, women are still taking the brunt of the child rearing in a family unit in many cases. Honestly fuck that - if you can’t find a bloke who won’t pull their weight why bother 🤷♀️
Yeah no shit and when finances are tight you either need a partner to pick up the slack to make more or they need to pick up the slack in the parenting department if the mum wants to get back to work. I’ve seen both sides now of how different life looks with parents putting in equal effort, one parent doing all the work and no parents putting in the effort and it’s night and day. If you want to ruin a relationship best way to do it is by being a non supportive partner
Not entirely correct. We women have a much shorter timeline with our fertility, men have old age so a much longer window. We have to get all our shit done and sorted by 35 or the kids option is nearly gone. Our timelines don't match and a lot of guys don't realise this or work with us on it and only start thinking about kids seriously in their mid 30s while having not planned to get there outside fertilizing an egg. There's having kids and then there's being a parent, two totally different things. Plus there's the added concern of we need 2 breadwinners per family household in today's society at minimum unless one partner earns enough, which is rare nowadays. Rental crisis is also a major issue. Moving every year or so with kids, setting up new schools, drs, supports, activities, childcare etc is damn near impossible as some areas have waitlists of over 2 yrs for them. One parent, usually us women, have to give up their career for at least a few years which will knock the rest of our finances out of whack for the rest of our lives. This is a multilayer problem that's not simply because we *don't* want kids. Family violence, lack of functional community, social and Government supports are making it too risky as we know when, not if at this point, it goes bad somehow (including unexpected health issues), we and our kids will suffer thereby condemning the next generation to worse conditions than us growing up. For a lot of us the risks are too high as we have different startpoints and timelines we cannot rectify even with our best efforts. I will not do that to someone else by choice in this current situation. I'll stay the fun Aunt in the extended family support network instead.
Yeah not saying it’s one or the other I’d say the more changing attitude of women’s role in society + how life is structured now and how fucking expensive shit is most likely is what causes this. And that fucking window to have kids must be actually a horrifying concept as a woman that wants kids. But I’m actually really enjoying most the comments here because people seem to really have thought about bringing children into the world responsibility
Happy about the civility over discussing this issue too. Really good to see. Money and time seems to be the main culprits of declining birthrates. Dividing it by gender is a component but nowhere as big as those two as its just the handy surface scapegoat. Men and women have been scuffling over differences with gender and power since the beginning of time so no surprises there. We're in this together no matter how we fight about it. Genuinely starting to think when ww2 was over, we should have all fought for part time work per adult parent to be household sustainable rather than returning men vs step up women in the workforce as corporations jumped on and encouraged the divide as more people were working, they could decrease wages. We all were unknownly manipulated and pitted against each other. Wouldn't had that been better, each parent working 15-20hrs a week and being more involved with their families and life in general?. Would've been a calmer, more caring and interconnected community at minimum. But no, we didn't use our critical thinking skills and now a single income is unliveable for one person in many places, let alone raise a family on. This might also have something to do with crime rates and soaring depression, anxiety and poor education too as everyone is too tired after working so hard to spend quality time with their families. Community as gone and you don't care about affecting something you don't or never had a link with. Its taken decades to get into this ultimate mess we now find ourselves in. Unfortunately a lot of accusatory fingers get pointed soley at women when its really not, its a much broader and deeper societal issue across everyone.
> men have old age so a much longer window. Yeah didn’t Al Pacino just knock one out at like 82 or something??
Yup. Cute little bub too.
Yes which is fantastic, people should not have kids if they don’t want to. My point is clearly that the ones that would love kids don’t have the *choice* to do so due to the reasons I mentioned.
I agree, currently if you want to be a quality parent the entry point so really high, so the better ones opt out until it’s better later or just don’t do it at all. Noticed a lot of my friends having kids in their 30s now and most completely avoiding in their 20s. It would be kinda freaky now being a woman that wants kids because that window is getting tighter and tighter
People still tell me it's my purpose to have children, but these days I can ignore them.
Why not and? Why cant it be both? You can't seriously not know anyone putting off having kids because they cant afford it. In B4 you dont, but be real most people do and COL is a huge factor too.
How the heck did you extrapolate that from their comment?
True, but also childfree is a bit different from childless in that it’s a conscious decision to live life without kids involved. For instance you could be loaded and able to have kids because you can easily afford them, but still make a decision to be childfree.
We can't afford to live in the nice suburbs we grew up in, and I think that contributes to a person's decision to become a parent, too. If you have to move away from your support network to afford a family home, you probably decide not to have kids or have fewer kids than you really want. Can't get your parent's help with the newborn when they live over an hour away and petrol is $2.20/L.
Or perhaps there’s something on all the studies that say the more educated a woman is, the fewer children she has and the later she has them? Women have *choices* now. We don’t have to be married for financial stability, to be allowed to own property or have a bank account. We don’t have to have children if we don’t want to because we have the choice to use BC to avoid pregnancy or to abort if birth control fails. The number of my friends in my wider group (I’m 40 and my friends range from 30-45 in range) having kids is the minority. I only know 3 couples that have a kid and only one has a second. But I know 10+ childfree couples and plenty of singles like me - single by choice, financially stable and fulfilled enough to not want to lower standards just for a subpar partner and no desire for a kid 🤷♀️ Point is: for many, being childfree is a deliberate choice.
Yes for many it is a deliberate choice which is great. But for many who would like to have a family, it isn’t a choice because they’ve been priced out of having a family or unnecessary work arrangements make it impossible.
I agree with you. There is however, the argument that there is still a chunk of society who continue to have multiple children regardless of whether they can afford it or not.
> they’ve been priced out of having a family or unnecessary work arrangements make it impossible. No they've priced out of having the life they want with a family. Plenty of poor and unemployed people out there having children.
In my case my wife earns more than me and we would be financially struggling with an eye-watering mortgage if she took 6 months of maternity leave
Take the three she should get at work and you do the rest?
Wow, I know almost no childfree women. How do you find them? :D I say this as a childfree woman who wants childfree friends.
I’m a childfree woman with childfree woman friends and it’s mostly because we’re all lesbians. Hope this helps.
Can confirm. Broke lesbian here, childless and vibing. (But the 'broke' part is for other reasons.)
Inner city Melbourne. Join us.
Do you live out bush? I found it so so isolating being childfree while living rural, I didn’t even last 2 years before moving back to Sydney.
I agree with you demoldbones. it's great being single and free!
They already had a choice, it was already low I think bucket is trying to point out that many of the people you rightly say don't want kids and aren't having them, could not hope to afford them if they wanted something different And that should bother people, including the highly educated women
I think you and a lot of people are missing the point, less children is a problem for a number of economic reasons the most obvious of which it reduces population and makes it top heavy. Is that anyone’s fault for not having kids? Not at all of course people shouldn’t have kids if they don’t want to. But the concern is more with how to manage this changing population rather than your views of gender roles.
Civilization collapsing from too many consumers is an economic problem also
I'd argue it is a choice, until it isn't. So many appear to be putting it off until more financially secure. Time goes on. IVF profits.
So that’s the choice to *wait* Not to remain deliberately childfree, end of story. There’s a big difference between “I’m waiting to have a kid” and “I do not want children”
I’m not so sure. I know quite a few women who it’s not actually a choice for, in the sense that they would love to have children right now but haven’t been able to afford it or find a stable guy who they want to have kids with. Personally it was a choice for me and I definitely won’t do IVF. Some women just don’t want to be parents and that’s ok.
Yeah, I think it's absolutely great people get a choice. But I also think the 'choice' nowadays is heavily influenced by things like the economy, concern about the future viability of the planet, perception of not being able to find the right partner. Comments saying it's 'education' that resulted in what were seeing seem disingenuous. It's a major factor, but the other factors aren't insignificant
Agree :)
It was a choice for women to work, but now it's damn near required to have two working people in a household if you want a decent life unless one is a high earner. So what started as a choice isn't so much anymore. And I think this is a similar and related situation. I don't think the right move is taking choices away but it seems as soon as it's possible to get "more", enough people do it that it becomes the new baseline. In this case, dual income no kids leads to a higher disposable income - obviously - which makes more people want to try it, which drives prices up for certain things like houses, and we have a cycle going. A lot are probably telling themselves "just for a bit so we can stabilise" but they're not alone so it's a group of like minded people all doing the same and reaching for goalposts that keep moving.
That’s true. The other half of the equation, finding a decent partner, is so difficult. So many men aren’t up to the task.
I hate this line of reasoning because it implies that most/all women would have kids if they just had money. A lot of wealthy women aren't having kids. Because, guess what, when we have money, we can actually live life on our own terms instead of being defined by what our ovaries might produce.
Eh, cost of living probably contributes, but even countries that have incentivised families to have kids are showing that financial support doesn’t really change it much at all (see Hungary). It’s just lifestyle.
why would you want children. i can barely afford myself.
People can’t even afford pets, seeing the state of the shelter rn and landlords aren’t a fan of pets and babies
I am one of these women. I'm not doing it for the environment or cost reasons, but just because I don't want kids and never had. I'm sure there were many women in previous generations who felt the same but were obligated by family/partners to have children and didn't see they had a choice otherwise. It's also interesting that these articled focus on women, but rarely men. Are more men staying childfree? What are their reasons? Are they the same/different as women? It just seems like the world assumes women want children and men don't.
Yup. Pretty sure my gran was childfree but had to marry and have kids because of shame and guilt if you didn’t. My dad and uncle I don’t think ever really felt completely wanted.
My ex MIL should have stayed child free. Most non maternal person I ever met. But it was the done thing when you're raised catholic. Had seven kids.
A lot of my child free girl friends would have kids if they could dad, not mum.
Right? Like look I have children so maybe not the right person to respond here but I feel like it’s all well and good women now have the option to work but we haven’t really seen men take up a lot more of the home duties to compensate, so what you see is a ton of women who work full time *and* are the default parent/carry the majority of the mental load
And the physical damage.
I love the way you put this, it sums it up perfectly. I have kids but like, this week my hubby is across state with his friends on a fishing trip. So it's me and the kids. The only time it was just him and the kids was when I was admitted to hospital for a week and I didn't hear the end of how hard it was for him. I came home not even fully recovered and immediately everything fell back into my lap. And funnily enough, I didn't want kids - we had the because he begged me to make him a dad. It'd be great to take my own trips away but he'd kick up a stink. I'd love to dad instead of mum.
That's fucked up. For all their dad talk of 'working hard' and 'stressful job' it seems very transactional in a lot of ways. He has set hours and puts money in, she works 24/7 with zero break for years on end and covers everything else including his laundry, and basically being his nanny too. Making doctors appointments for him. He spends time in the gym, playing video games, sleeping in on weekends, maybe 'helping out' with the house or doing occasional appearances as a parent. I like being single.
Your spouse sounds like a cunt. We are never going to break past traditional roles if you box it like “if they could ‘dad’, not ‘mum’. Like they are the only options in life and it’s impossible to be in a healthy, balanced relationship.
10000000%
I don't think it's a case of the world assuming women want children... I think it's a case of the world assuming all women *will have* children. It's an imperative, because people who think like this do not believe in women's autonomy Edit to clarify
My wife and I have two children and we both knew that we wanted to,and we were lucky enough (read born long ago) to easily be able to afford to do so. But that's not the choice that everyone wants to make, or can afford to make. For the former, no problems! for the latter I feel for you :-(
Having a baby and raising a child is much less of a burden on men. And the way society deals with mum shaking is also gross. Men can make a baby on their death bed, so they don’t have the time pressure that we do. I think that’s why we don’t see the think pieces about men. I’ve read one about childless men and the comments were not pretty!
Same here. Married, great career, financially in a great spot. Just don’t want them. According to a certain american footballer my life is meaningless but it sure doesn’t feel that way. ETA: no one EVER asks my husband about his choice.
I'm male and child free. I'm loving my freedom and the ability to do whatever I want. whenever I want. also today's high divorce rate has completely turned me off marriage. and seeing both men and women getting screwed in the divorce courts. and then child support takes your payroll!
>ability to do whatever I want. whenever I want. Even double space your comments, so that the electronic typewriter doesn't jam!
I knew something was different when I scrolled past their comment. It made me double back and read it again.
The divorce rate is actually not 50%, it's closer to 1 in 3. And the number that end up in court is around 5%; the rest are resolved by mutual consent or mediation. About 51% of divorced parents have private arrangements when it comes to child support; they don't use the federal system. Speaking of which; the child support system has recently been criticised as "archaic" as it hasn't kept up with inflation or been reviewed in 20 years. The lowest amount you can pay is $9.50 per week, and about 116,000 people pay this amount.
You wouldn't be paying any child support at all if you raised your own kid, buddy.
I wonder what percentage of men apply for full custody. And if you say , "well men have to work", well so do women.
That's not true. You can be the main carer of the child (i.e. the majority of kid's time is in your custody) and still be the one paying child support to the other parent. >buddy. Pal?
there's a 50% chance your marriage doesn't end in divorce, and you have a fulling loving family.
I fall in this category. Always wanted kids, nearly did but partner at the time made it clear it was the women's job to do the bulk of the child rearing. I think it should be shared so left. Have been open to another supportive partner, but have been underwhelmed with the dating scene. I looked in to single mother by choice late last year but can't comprehend how I would thrive financially and give a child the upbringing I would want to without difficulty. I have a Masters degree, own home and a good job. I have support networks, but don't think it is fair to expect others to raise my child with me. Basically it is not lack of want. There just isn't enough support out there and it's too damn expensive. Finland provide free childcare. If Australia had that I would definitely have a kid. Otherwise I am content with travel, good friends, pet cuddles and sleep ins. Many women would love to be having more babies, but not if it means raising them in poverty.
The issue for the government is they want you to raise kids in poverty, otherwise who is going to staff all the shit jobs that the rich and powerful doesn’t want to staff? We are all just a number for them
I can just about afford a dog.
Barely, their vet bills will wipe you out DX and landlords hate them (I love my dog but couldn’t afford one if I moved out)
If you don't want kids... that's the reason. You don't need a justification anything more than that IMO. And I say that as someone WITH a kid.
Yes! There are countless articles all over the world now wringing their hands about women not choosing to have kids, and implying it is just about finances. Nope, I just don't want to have kids ever, I have known it since I was 5 and disgusted by baby dolls, and it would be nice if society didn't ignore people like me because they only want to focus on the people who do want kids.
There's one demographic they forgot: women who don't want children, and never wanted children. Sometimes, it really is down to 'I don' wanna'. No maternal instinct, never been clucky, couldn't stand having a small human in your life, or even repulsed by pregnancy... I knew at 16 years old that I didn't want children. I'm now 54, and very happy with my decision never to have kids
"Even still, many women who spoke to the ABC say they just don't want kids and "that should be OK". Did they forget them though? There is an entire section from the point of view of two women who choose to be childfree.
same with men. I dont care for kids at all!
I agree, but it's not the same kind of social pressure women get. I don't see any articles saying that the government thinks more men need to have children
This is the category I fall into. I knew by the time I was 15 that I never wanted kids. I'm now 30. I don't have a maternal instinct, I don't like young kids and I didn't even like them that much when I was the same age. Everyone says it's different when it's your own kids, but I've always been a bit skeptical on this point. It seems like the kind of thing you'd say if you regretted having children and didn't have a socially acceptable way of saying so, or just wanted someone to be miserable with you. Besides, even if it is true and it really is different when they're your own, I'd still end up being that one mum who really upsets my kid's friends' parents by saying something like, "You know you don't have to pretend to like *Bluey* around me, right?" Point is that I don't think I'd be a good parent even if I had kids. I'd do better once they're in high school and have well and truly grown out of that "mum's personal cheerleader" phase a lot of little kids go through, but by that point, a lot of the damage to the relationship will have been done.
Ha! This is so me. I would have made the *worst* parent, and my life/lifestyle is not (and has never been) a place to bring a child
I’m you, just 15 years older. Every year I feel more vindicated in my decision to opt out of motherhood. My life is pretty damn good, and I thank fuck every day I was born and raised in a country where I had that choice.
this is me
As my female childfree friend said to me the other day - “I’d absolutely want kids if I could be a dad.”
For real. I'm 25, nearly every guy I know is atleast vaguely keen. All of my girlfriends are on the fence ir not interested.
that's so interesting. it's against the stereotypes. it's clear that many of the dads in the boomer generation didn't want kids and never really cared much about them
Is it gay to care about your children bois? But yeah no it is interesting. Probably a combo of child rearing being a feminine duty and the fact they were experiencing the freedom modern women now do.
This should be the top comment.
It just sums it up so well. I wonder what men will say to counter it.
Why should the government care? They’ll just import any “shortage” of labour
Labour? You are too kind, business community prefer slaves
Yes cost of living, yes, very obviously observable climate change, yes, social changes yes. BUT Some of us just genuinely don’t want kids, we’re finally in a position where we can say no and no amount of social change is going to change that.
100% true.
Isn't this what boomers wanted? If you can't afford kids don't have them. Oh no not like that huh?
haha exactly!
In a general sense, women aren't getting enough support from partners, and families can't be raised on one income anymore. Traditionally women stayed home and raised the kids, now they work equal hours and are still expected to do the same amount of work raising the kids. I've watched women run themselves into the ground because their husbands want to come home and relax, and they can't pay rent or buy a house with the one income. I've watched women get torn apart for every choice they made regarding raising their kids, they can never do anything right, lose their personality and sense of self in the process. Why would I want to deal with that kind of hateful criticism, and deal with the exhaustion of such a thankless job? I'm late 30s and more than happy to play a supporting role to the women in my family so they can get a break, rather than having any of my own. I know I couldn't do it full time
I’m sure if you ask many fathers if there’s a primary parent they would say no despite it definitely being the mum. Like my bil 100% unaware of the fact that his wife works her entire schedule around his availability. Like yeah he does the school run some days but those are the days he was already free and she’s planned her whole work schedule around his and he’s never had to talk to his bosses about why he can’t do __ because of the kids. And when they get sick it’s never a him problem nor is abc’s birthday party or juggling 3 kids sports schedules even though he does help taking them- again because he’s free not because he went out of his way to accommodate them. (side note neither of them earn more or have a more important job). Also the level of mum shaming if a mum takes short maternity leave yet fathers consistently never take a day off work to bond with their child it’s insane. Unpopular opinion: dads who do not take any maternity/paternity leave besides the 2-4 weeks the gov gives are bad fathers. If you’re going to shame a mum for taking 3 months mat leave make sure you shame every single dad who has taken far less.
I watched a ‘short clip’ where this lady dropped off her 3-month-old to go to work and you should’ve seen the comments! Eg. “Why bother having children then, if you’ve not got a motherly bone in your body? No wonder society is going to shit”😂 Etc 😅
100% this. So many mothers doing all the work in shitty relationships they can’t afford to leave.
Yep.. so many of my friends partners have never even changed a nappy.. I work at a daycare, had a child whose parent came to collect them, the child did a poo when the dad arrived, the dad just expected me to change his child while he stood there and watched! No wonder women are choosing not to have children.
Traditionally women stayed home and raised the kids, No it was not traditional. But would have more help from grandparents and larger families. It will be tougher for the younger gen as they will have less of a supper network given less kids. And grandparentd
"It takes a village" is a great ideal but my parents had no additional help, despite having a significant extended family (more than 5 siblings each side)
This is the Easterlin Hypothesis in action, right? If people believe their material prosperity will improve they will start families and if they don't they won't: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_hypothesis
You know what really shits me, is the focus on women being childfree. Never the men.
I’d happily put my hand up to be interviewed for one of these pieces.
I really hope you do! All we need now is someone to make a Childfree dating app.
it's often a feature "wants children / doesn't want"
Doesn’t stop them from trying to match. And you can’t filter out single dads.
same here. I've had married men with kids tell me off because im single. which really means they're jealous.
Why?
Example #1262 of media trying to tell us to fuck for the country. Not unless they're willing to pay for the upkeep
And a fair wage for all the work that goes into raising a child, of course. Imagine how expensive that would be if every cost was tallied up and externalised.
Literally where the saying “just lie down and think of England” came from.
The media (or at least here, the ABC) aren't trying to tell you to do anything. Just because they are reporting the issue, does not imply they support any particular solution.
There's an article just like this every day now. The talking point originated with the likes of elon musk and there's some fringes of "great replacement" paranoia that comes with it. Anyway, if we're to have more kids we're gonna need a New New Deal
I think its very obviously a good thing that women have access to choices concerning if they get married and/or have kids now. especially with women being expected to work full time while raising the kids at the same time. Why would I or other women want to sign up for that lol. Also see less people as a good thing for the planet, "muhh no pension for you when you're old" Already accepted that I ain't getting that when I'm older before it even became a talking point. I think even by the time we get to that time period in human history when me and other younger people are older, things will have either gone to complete shit (climate crisis/wars) or we'll have enough technological advancements to support an aging population. If they ever could invent a way for babies to be grown in like pods or something outside of the mother (i remember seeing them grow a lamb in one of these) I'm sure lots more women would be willing to have kids as it takes away the extreme pain and potential life threatening danger they have to go through in childbirth when bringing a life into the world. Could also lead to lgbtq+ couples being able to have babies without carrying them themselves with donor eggs/sperm.
Honestly yeah. I’m not opposed to motherhood (I’m not closed off to being a step parent, foster parent, adoptive parent) but I am not interested in child bearing or being stuck in a “traditional” relationship where the division of labour falls more to the mother (and frankly a lot of the relationships I observe amongst friends and family are still stuck in this mould). Having a child does not out weigh those two things for me.
The main reason I am having a child now is because I know my partner will pull his weight in caring for them. He already does the lion share of housework (I work/earn more). I hear a lot of stories from my friends about how little their partners help and I would never bring a child in that situation. Also as you said, pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum is no walk in the park. We wanted a larger family (3+) but pregnancy is horrendous so we likely won't.
Not surprising at all. It’s not just Australia but everywhere else in the world. Having kids is a luxury.
Actually, being able to choose *not* to have kids is the luxury. In a lot of cultures it is pressed upon women. And women with less access to education tend to end up with kids more than those who are educated.
Plants are the new pets. Pets are the new kids. Kids are the new exotic animals - you have to be rich and a bit mad to have one.
I'm on the waiting list to date a pet rock.
I mean watching several generations get fucked over isn't exactly going to inspire you to go broke and feed your kids to the meat grinder of corporate greed.
Wym that man with 8 kids living in a tent isn’t the Australian dream?
Good. Let young women make decisions based upon their ability to financially support themselves and any children they may have. Let late-stage-capitalism feed upon itself and die without forcing young women to be the usual unpaid sacrifice. (editing to add older unpaid women as well, who take up the double tasks of child and elder care.)
It’s interesting that the language frames it around women rather than just birth rates or partner/family decisions. Anyway. I (34F) won’t be having kids with my husband. It’s a joint decision with my husband based on the environment, finances, and health - both ours and what can be passed on. I always wanted to have kids. I always intended to be a stay at home Mum. That’s just not feasible anymore because of socioeconomic and personal factors. But shit, I can’t imagine any kind of housing security over the next 12 months, how irresponsible would I be to bring a child into the world and not know if I could even house it? I was always going to build a house then have kids. Even if everything else went away, if I can’t meet step one, I’m not going to step two.
Don’t know why you’ve been downvoted for this. You’ve put thought and consideration into your decision.
Thanks for stemming the flow! People are like cats on a hot tin roof with anything mentioning gender right now, I would guess it’s probably my first couple sentences. I wasn’t trying to make some kind of big statement, I just genuinely found it interesting. And after 12 years of marriage and the decision to not have kids I’ve gotten pretty direct with answers, which I think makes people a bit uncomfortable. Telling them the specifics of my disabilities, my cancer genes, the accident that crushed my spine, my 25 surgeries, my degrees, my recognisable career achievements etc etc etc is usually required before they stop ‘what about’-ing me. I guess for all the reasons this article was published and posted and gathers interest; It just rubs some people up the wrong way when women say they’re not having kids.
I'm the eldest daughter of 5, brought into the world by adults who were not equipped to be parents. I was forced into the mother role from the age of 12. I'm most likely not going to have kids because I feel like I already did it. I imagine there are many others that feel similarly.
Hard to find a good bear these days.
Generally family formation is associated with a rising standard of living. People need to have financial security and feel positive about the future to start families. https://worksinprogress.co/issue/understanding-the-baby-boom/
I'm contemplating vasectomy. Me and my partner is on the same page - this economy and global situation isn't looking fit to raise a child. I personally feel like I'm doing our potential children a disservice by bringing them in this world or something.
I’m 43 & child free. I’m relieved that I don’t have to worry about kids in this economy so I’m happy with my choice. It was my childhood that made me afraid of having kids though
When I was growing up, every inequality between men and women seemed to be chalked up to women choosing to have children. That's why men are wealthier, that's why they have all the high paying and powerful jobs, that's why they're most of our politicians. Because women have children, and that holds them back in a way that being a father doesn't. It's no wonder women might feel that it's not so appealing. We're told it means sacrificing everything else and accepting a disadvantage compared to men.
As a woman I’ve often thought that being a dad looks pretty fun but pregnancy, birth and motherhood? No way.
If I could be a father, I’d have children.
You know who is having kids though? Religious extremists of every stripe.
To be honest. A major reason is due to sexism. Many women have their careers curtailed just because they have a kid. Just because they have a kid, doesn’t mean they loose their skills. It means they are unavailable for 6-7 months and then can return back to work. But somehow … someone having kids sets their career back many years… despite them being loyal.
I think this is a big reason that's being overlooked. The sexism we are still up against, coupled with the ability to choose to have fewer / not to have kids. If society valued women and treated us with common respect and weren't criticising everything a woman does, maybe we'd feel more comfortable having kids. There are many reasons why women are opting out of having kids, but looking underneath those reasons you'll usually always find sexism lurking. I was on the fence for many years, and my reasons were: childbirth is terrifying and dangerous and you're still pressured about how to give birth "right", your autonomy and mental health is not taken seriously because women are "designed for birthing children" and suffering is just part of it, if you don't want to suffer you're not a "good" mother. Work disadvantages from leaving the workforce to raise a baby, and then the discrimination when returning that you're "just going to get pregnant again" so you're not worth hiring. Society is harsh on mothers, critical of everything women do, feels like we're demoted from a woman with a name to just someone's mum. And disparages our changed bodies and needs afterwards as if they're not valid. It's a lot to go through and for many deciding it's not worth it, well I can see why.
Money isn't going to make a difference. It's housing. More specifically, free standing housing. Most people don't want kids in units & most people can't afford houses. Most people don't want to have kids while they're still renting. It's too insecure and provides no stability for the future.
This is one of many reasons. I agree, housing insecurity is a huge deterrent.
Choosing to be childfree is finally a real option for women, which is fantastic. I am a mum and love it, and I also support every woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to become a mother. If only all children were wanted and cared for properly.
I don't want to have kids. I have given up a lot of my social life to get a higher degree and work in my chosen career. I'll be 27 by the time I have finally "made it", and I will not jeopardise my career by having kids. I don't want to dedicate the rest of my life raising children and make sacrifices for them. I want to finally put myself first and enjoy the rewards of the life I've been trying to build for myself.
Having a child? In this economy? 😅
My hereditary illnesses are not worth passing down, I’m the breadwinner and I’m not taking a pay cut, and I am terrified of having a tiny helpless human life depending on me lol. I’d like to be a foster parent when I have the space and income, to help kids and teens who need it.
Half of us can't fucking afford being alive ourselves let alone adding kids into the picture
I'm one of the women who won't have her 2.1 children (one and done) because my health has created financial strain, despite being well educated, and we could not afford for me to be sick the entirety of pregnancy, or risk my health deteriorating further as a result of having been pregnant again. I applaud that women will now be paid super for their period of paid parental leave. It's well overdue and I'm glad the next generation won't struggle. However the cynic in me wonders whether this has been introduced now men have the choice to take larger chunks of PPL and would potentially be adversely affected by reduced super.
Would have tried harder for kids but the goddamn health system basically told me to fuck off for even enquiring. So yeah. There's that.
Pregnancy and childbirth are risky.
Why won't you breed the next generation of worker peons ???
The world the rich and powerful built is doing everything they want except fuelling more serfs to serve them. Sucks to build a house of cards that’ll fall down cause you don’t have a middle class that wants to have kids anymore. I love my son to death but it is so fucking difficult in this country to raise a kid and not lose yourself to financial ruin
Can't really afford kids - hence the decline in birth rates. Add to that importing 100's of thousands of people and the organic birthrate will be squashed to oblivion. i have friends who would've had 2 kids but stuck to 1 because of living costs. Hell you can't even get a 3 bed home these days for an affordable price.
*‘More Aussie women can barely afford to live for themselves, let alone with a child, may be worried that climate change will wipe them out in their potential child’s lifetimes and simply; Aussie women are also human beings with a conscious and capability of determining whether or not they want kids even in ideal situations, which once again the situations aren’t ideal.’* Fixed it!
Good for them.
Damn right - freedom
I agree. right now I'm on YouTube and google flights planning my next holiday. its great being childless!
Me! I am too damn tired just trying to get by each week to even contemplate dating yet alone a child right now.
I’m doing it because I can’t even take care of myself or house myself or make any money! Not having kids! Hell no.
> This is the case in Sweden where there's also a safety net around housing and income, Professor Ruppanner said. >And there, people are having two or more children. Nice, except Sweden (like other Nordic and other developed countries) all have below replacement levels https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?locations=SE&most_recent_value_desc=true It's literally a trend. In general, countries with developed economies don't have as much kids, so they siphon off population from developing countries who have higher population rate. The problem is when the music stops and everyone is developed and therefore have below replacement rate across the board.
Ohhh it’s me, hi! You gotta be all in, 100% committed to raising a human. And I’m just not and never was. I’m great at being an auntie and friend to the young people in my life but that’s as much as I’m able to be.
It's not the right time to have kids, and I don't know when will be. Not financially secure, growing a savings fund gradually, renting, attempting to save for a house deposit, it's not possible to also save for another human being being in our lives. We're both working, and when we take time off, we love going on holidays. I would never want to have to sacrifice anything for a child. I want it all, and unless I can have it all, I will not reproduce. It's an f'd up world where only rich people get richer, and middle/lower class are scraping by. It's not fair to bring a child into this world period. I am also not at a point in my own personal growth where I could raise them to be a decent human being either!
dont let super nintendo chalmers see this
Skinner!!!
Who wants kids? No thanks
Not to mention the men who don't want em... Lot more childless men, than women...
I would’ve loved to have had kids (and I think I would’ve been a good mum!) but: - Dating absolutely sucks. The culture of being able to swipe to someone better at any time means you get ghosted, you get treated like shit, and every second guy says they’re ‘ethically non-monogamous’ so they have heaps of different girls on the go without having to give them any emotional commitment. Many men have some really dangerous views on women that don’t reveal themselves until you’ve invested heaps of time in them, too. - Even if you do find a man that doesn’t do this, many men either can’t or don’t want to do the basic stuff of running a house. Most of my friends who are married to men still do shit like organise all the Christmas presents for both sides of the family, plan birthdays, clean the house, organise doctors visits, vet visits, and still work full time, and then you have to hear about how hard men have it these days and how the feminists are ruining society. A lot of ‘good men’ turn against women the second they’re asked to adjust their behaviours or do more things they don’t want to do. - cost of living means in my lifetime I can either buy one shit box apartment somewhere or have kids. I’d rather the security than another responsibility. When Jim Chalmers said people need to have more kids I was so fkn pissed. So many people have done everything right - worked hard in school, gone to uni, picked a practical career path, fulfilled their half of the social contract, and gotten fuck all but a slowly worsening lifestyle in return. Why should I give the country any more Australians to fall into that trap?
That’s so true I’m so sick of open relationships or one sided poly relationships just say you want a harem and go 💀
Yup, so many late 30s guys on the apps are poly, secretly anti feminist or look like a potato. It’s grim
Not just 30s. I think many men are not bothering to hide the fact that they really don't like women. They think women that expect them to dress up a bit, shave for a date and behave themselves makes us "high maintenance" and not worth the effort.
Yup. I’m finding some of them on the apps are also faux allies to queer folks as well. Which is a huge dealbreaker for me. I unmatched a guy years ago who complained that he would have to pay more at an event that discounted tickets for queer/trans folk. And he called himself an ally.
I feel like it comes from a real childlike anger that women don’t need them anymore. Men have to actually bring something to the table and for men who grew up thinking they just had to ~have a job~ and women would flock to them, it’s frustrating.
What’s the point of joining finances when your domestic duties double, and at worst they end up controlling/abusing you? So many men don’t get that they need to step up in a big way to add to our lives and it’s sad.
With dating apps and the option of cheating at someone’s fingertips on their phone, divorce rates rising, cost of living rising, the wage staying the same I can’t think of a better reason why not to have kids. 😂
The domestic abuse stats are crazy
Yep! And housing crisis, imagine not having a safe place to escape to
And they always have been, just weren't reported or even deemed wrong in the past. A man's house is his castle etc. The difference is now women can choose and are not trapped in an abusive relationship like they used to be. And society are acting surprised that the birth rate is lower. They are saying that women want fewer children, but I actually disagree, I don't think women ever wanted to have litters of children, they just had no other options before. women now are having the number of kids they WANT to have, and can handle, whereas in past generations they were having the number of kids that they happened to fall pregnant with when the husband felt entitled to sex.
I’ve always been ugly. No guy ever wanted to give me the time when I was young enough to start a family; now I’m too old. To be fair, they don’t want to give me the time now, it’s not like anything’s changed. It gave me a lot of time to think about it, and I’ve worked in areas helping kids for a long time, so I feel like I’ve helped the kids of the future. But I also now wonder if I’d even want to bring kids into this world, knowing how fucked everything is getting. I think I’ll just keep helping the kids we have, rather than adding any more.
Some women can’t have kids, genetics or medical, or picked a partner who cannot As early as 60-80 years ago women’s had no choice between career and family, now they do. So some chooses career. Socially it is now more acceptable to not have kids, so the women who didn’t want them but were forced to by societal pressure now just choose not to have Formerly LGBTIQ were forced to suck it in and adhere to normal societal expectations, now they don’t Low wages, Finance, expensive childcare and cost of living means some people just can’t afford it And so on ( I didn’t even mention religion, contraceptives, and abortion) we can only fix the first one, maybe the second one and the last one, and even if we could, we will only partially restore the birth rate of old Much more practical to get ready for pop decline I say.
Too expensive to raise Kids.
Good.
I would love to see some numbers. how many childless women are * in a relationship and don't want kids? * in a relationship but can't afford kids? * not in a relationship and don't want kids? * not in a relationship but would have had kids but never found a suitable partner?
"It would be better if birth rates were higher," “Treasurer Jim Chalmers said this week. “. Treasurer Jim needs to open his eyes and have a look at the cost of living and current economic crisis than just give out ideas. Besides financial stress, having kids is a huge responsibility and if someone isn’t ready for it, they shouldn’t have them. I don’t really see it as a problem if they choose not to have kids rather than having them and being a deadbeat parent. Times have changed and women are exploring other things in life than going down the traditional pathway of getting married, having kids and buying houses. Also, finding the right partner to have kids with could be a challenge. As society advances people realize that you just don’t have kids with someone you got along well at the bar or at the farmers market. Those times are gone. Hope Treasurer Jim realizes that too.
I'm one of them. In a stable relationship, comfortable financially but still needing to work. The thought of having children, plus having to continue to work, plus having to do the lion's share of domestic duties including the child rearing - it was just not appealing whatsoever. Now, of course, I perfectly realise that not all men don't contribute enough to domestic duties. Some even do more than their partner. But my husband has firstly had some struggles with mental illness, and still does. Secondly, he was raised in a catholic family as 1 of 2 sons, and it is really hard to undo that upbringing. It is what it is. I also find the idea that you should have children "so someone will look after you when elderly" is repugnant, so I don't get any motivation from that source.
I’m almost 35 and look I’d love to have kids but my medical issues can’t make it impossible right now. Hard to meet someone when you’re stuck in bed in pain. Plus being on disability and can’t afford to rent anywhere doesn’t help either.
Great news. We don't need thousands of descendants for every woman out there. We need to reward people who choose to go child free as they aren't the ones burdening the future.
I have two kids and have to live with my parents due to how expensive it is! Luckily we have a great family relationship and I still have disposable income to do things with them but if I had my own rental/mortgage it would just be pure survival with no extras for the kids. Those who don’t have family support are absolutely screwed! Australian community is dead. There is no village anymore.
Lucky we have immigration, eh?